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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ok F Daily with

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Speaker 1: Meet Your Girl Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,

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Speaker 1: the opening that I was going to do was going

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Speaker 1: to be different than the one that I am about

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Speaker 1: to deliver, because right when I was coming to my

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Speaker 1: microphone to turn it on and discuss an entirely different story,

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Speaker 1: news broke school shooting Appalachi High School in Georgia. At

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Speaker 1: the time of this recording, currently four people are dead,

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Speaker 1: thirty more are wounded. There are still reports coming in. Folks.

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Speaker 1: The reason don't matter, the fucking weapon of choice does,

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Speaker 1: and the easy access to it, and a society that

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Speaker 1: chooses to allow the number one cause of death to

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Speaker 1: not be diseased, to not be poisoned, to not be accident,

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Speaker 1: but instead to be intentional carnage that happens at the

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Speaker 1: hand of a gun. I don't understand this country. I

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Speaker 1: don't understand people who elect Republican officials into office that

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Speaker 1: remove their flag pin and put on an AR fifteen

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Speaker 1: the way that Republicans in the House of Representatives have done.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand a nation of people that would vote

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Speaker 1: for a man that told families after shooting in Iowa

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Speaker 1: to quote, get over it. I don't understand a country

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Speaker 1: where elected officials who have the power of the pen

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Speaker 1: to write legislation that would keep Americans safe, that instead

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Speaker 1: use those very same pens to make it easier and

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Speaker 1: easier for people to have guns to carry them wherever

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Speaker 1: they want. There are other countries in the world where

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Speaker 1: after one shooting they change their gun laws, after one

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Speaker 1: act of heinous violence, they change their laws. Why is

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Speaker 1: America like this? Why is this okay? It is the

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Speaker 1: first day of school for millions of children, and there

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Speaker 1: are some of them that are not coming home, and

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Speaker 1: we have just shrugged our shoulders and said, well, that's

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Speaker 1: the price of freedom. I guess is this free? Is

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Speaker 1: this what freedom looks like? Honestly, I am just I'm outdone.

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Speaker 1: I did a whole video on this that is up

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Speaker 1: on my YouTube channel. Go to YouTube Google Daniel Moody

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Speaker 1: channel at Daniel Moody Underscore because right when it happened,

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Speaker 1: I needed to post something because I was near tears.

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Speaker 1: I don't have kids, and you shouldn't need to have

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Speaker 1: kids to realize that school should be a place of safety,

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Speaker 1: of innovation, of inspiration, of joy and instead too often

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Speaker 1: in this country they are a fucking crime scene. And

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Speaker 1: again we're okay with that. We have power come November, friends,

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Speaker 1: We have power, come November to rid ourselves of Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: to rid ourselves of these Republican representatives, to rid ourselves

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Speaker 1: of their nonsensical, grift driven policies where they care so

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Speaker 1: little about our fucking children out of uter row that

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Speaker 1: instead of putting on a beanie on them in the hospital,

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Speaker 1: they want to check their trigger finger. I am just

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Speaker 1: fucking sick and outdone. It needs to end. The only

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Speaker 1: time that we have not had a shooting at schools

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Speaker 1: in this country was during COVID, and that's because the

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Speaker 1: kids were home. I don't know how people send their

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Speaker 1: kids to school, I really don't. I know they don't

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Speaker 1: have a choice, but I just can't imagine the fear

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Speaker 1: because one day, that text message and that phone call

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Speaker 1: that too many families have received across this country will

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Speaker 1: end up on your phone, changing lives forever. Coming up next, friends,

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Speaker 1: my conversation, an important conversation with our friend or in

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Speaker 1: house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel on why Generation Z men

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Speaker 1: under the a age of thirty are deciding to vote

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Speaker 1: with Trump, and sadly it's not just young white men.

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Speaker 1: Oh God, more on that conversation is coming up next, folks.

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Speaker 1: As always, you know that when we have the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to speak with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzl,

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Speaker 1: we are always pleased. Jonathan. Happy September. It is not

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Speaker 1: actually officially the end of summer because the equinox has

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Speaker 1: not happened, which is man, but it is the end

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Speaker 1: of summer for those that teach, for those that are students.

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Speaker 1: So I will say classes back in session. Because you

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Speaker 1: sent me some reading work ahead of our conversation today,

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Speaker 1: and friends, this article in the New York Times, which

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Speaker 1: you know is my least favorite publication right now, entitled

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Speaker 1: many gen z Men feel left behind, Some see Trump

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Speaker 1: as an answer. Men under thirty are more likely to

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Speaker 1: support Donald Trump than women their age. It's a far

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Speaker 1: bigger gender gap than in older generations. So, Jonathan, you

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Speaker 1: sent this to me, and I want to get you

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Speaker 1: kick us off in terms of why you feel like

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Speaker 1: this is something that we need to be paying attention to,

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Speaker 1: or why you think that maybe we haven't been paying

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Speaker 1: attention to gen z men.

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Speaker 2: Well, what I thought was interesting about that article was

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Speaker 2: that there's kind of stereotype of white men as the

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Speaker 2: hegemonic norm, the power structure, all that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 2: and then there's also like there's a fifty year history

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Speaker 2: of white masculinity being in a crisis. I used to

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Speaker 2: teach a class called the Politics of Masculinity, and every

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Speaker 2: year there'd be some article men are in crisis, and

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Speaker 2: so there's always kind of a tradeoff. I would say

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Speaker 2: that they're not a ton of sympathy for those arguments,

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Speaker 2: but I do think that there was some really interesting

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Speaker 2: and powerful stuff in this article, in particular because it

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Speaker 2: wasn't like Trump is playing the whole macho testosterone field

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Speaker 2: card and that's what Elon Musk is doing and all

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Speaker 2: these people, Andrew Tait and all this crazy stuff. But

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Speaker 2: what was interesting in this article is that they were

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Speaker 2: interviewing and there was citing research about men who actually

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Speaker 2: supported reproductive rights and were a fine working for a

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Speaker 2: woman boss. They weren't like out there doing the drum

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Speaker 2: circle with Trump. But they were also saying that they

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Speaker 2: were feeling ignored and left behind, and that in a way,

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Speaker 2: all the initiatives, all the politics of the Democrats really

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Speaker 2: weren't speaking to them, and there was you know, there

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Speaker 2: was another article I read about how like the Democratic

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Speaker 2: platform had all of the groups who were to be

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Speaker 2: lifted up and white men were not one of the

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Speaker 2: groups and stuff like that. So there's an assumption that

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Speaker 2: white men are like this toxic, crazy thing. But what

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Speaker 2: I thought was interesting in the article was it was

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Speaker 2: not that it was men who are kind of okay

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Speaker 2: with some gender norms, but also feel like they're worried

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Speaker 2: about the economy. They can't attract a mate because they

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Speaker 2: can't make enough money to support a family, They worry

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Speaker 2: about the fall of traditional gender roles, or things like that.

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Speaker 2: So these are the article was much more about what

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Speaker 2: you might call like centrist gen Z white men, not

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Speaker 2: extreme white men. And so the question for me always

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Speaker 2: is could the Democrats be doing more to speak to

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Speaker 2: those audiences, because certainly what the article suggested is Trump

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Speaker 2: is the only one who is acknowledging those audiences. And

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Speaker 2: I do worry sometimes that we've fallen into a trap

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Speaker 2: that white men don't need to be acknowledged because they

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Speaker 2: already have all the benefits or things like that. So

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, in a way, it complicates that

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Speaker 2: thinking a little bit if people are willing to go there.

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Speaker 2: And of course the other part is there are a

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Speaker 2: lot of men like that in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and

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Speaker 2: North Carolina, and so the fact that the Democratic messages

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Speaker 2: not speaking to them beyond just like you know, I

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Speaker 2: saw this with the Affordable Care Act, like, of course

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Speaker 2: our policies are going to help you. Of course, our

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Speaker 2: policy is going to help you. That kind of stuff,

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Speaker 2: but not really acknowledging them is I think the question

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Speaker 2: the article raises.

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Speaker 1: Let me take a step back before we dive into

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Speaker 1: the specifics of the article, because I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about and get your thoughts on gender norms specifically, because

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Speaker 1: what I think has been happening over the course, particularly

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Speaker 1: around the last several weeks and the shift in our

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Speaker 1: Democrats top of the ticket with Vice President Kamala Harris

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Speaker 1: now being the Democratic nominee, is that there is a

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Speaker 1: distinctive divide between the future and the past, between what

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Speaker 1: traditional gender norms are and the role that I am

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Speaker 1: seeing and many are seeing Governor Tim Walls present as

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Speaker 1: a different version of what masculinity can and many are

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Speaker 1: saying should look like. Talk to me about gender roles

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Speaker 1: in modern time what is the role, what is the positioning,

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Speaker 1: what is the reasoning behind gender roles? And is there

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Speaker 1: in the twenty first century, in this time where so

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Speaker 1: much has shifted. And I disagree to some extent with

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Speaker 1: some in the article saying that you know, things have

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Speaker 1: shifted so quickly, and I'm like, I guess fifty or

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Speaker 1: sixty years as quick. But talk to me about the

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Speaker 1: positioning and the reasoning behind gender roles in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a mistake that people like me.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I was a women's studies professor before I

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Speaker 2: was anything in academia. That was my first job for

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Speaker 2: many years, which I loved. But there was a mistake

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Speaker 2: to think that we're on a progress narrative, that we're

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Speaker 2: going toward equality, and that gender roles are a thing

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Speaker 2: of the past, just like race is a thing of

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Speaker 2: the past. But when you study the history of it,

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Speaker 2: you see that there's always a vacillation, because gender realms

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Speaker 2: do not exist in a vacuum. First, of course, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of false nostalgia about gender and like, oh,

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Speaker 2: it used to be so great in the old days,

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Speaker 2: and now we want to bring that back. But really,

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Speaker 2: if you go back to the old days, there were

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Speaker 2: a lot of problems. So partially there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: nostalgia about the way things used to be. But it

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Speaker 2: does feel like there's a lot of vacillation between liberation

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Speaker 2: and conservatism, I guess you might say. And so in

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Speaker 2: the sixties and seventies there was Gloria Steinem saying a

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Speaker 2: woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.

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Speaker 2: We were going to overthrow the male female role system.

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Speaker 2: And then people got really nervous, saying, gosh, gender rules

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Speaker 2: structure society, it's how I understand the world, it's how

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Speaker 2: I understand religion. And so then there's a kind of

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Speaker 2: blowback against that to say, you know, there's a return

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Speaker 2: to the head of the household male and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: But it also responds to events. I mean, think about

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Speaker 2: nine to eleven, for example, people got nervous, and all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden we saw the valorization of the white

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Speaker 2: male firefighter or policeman or something like that. So there

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Speaker 2: are all these ways in which it's not just a linear,

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Speaker 2: a kind of ascended progress narrative, and I think we're

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Speaker 2: seeing that now too, which is we can be very

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Speaker 2: critical of it if we want but I think that

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Speaker 2: stories like trans women in women's sports or the bathroom thing,

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Speaker 2: which seemed kind of comical if you're like a liberal

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Speaker 2: person in a blue city or something like that, but

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Speaker 2: it does speak to an anxiety that I think people

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Speaker 2: feel palpably here in a place like Tennessee that the

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Speaker 2: world is changing away from my value system. And so

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Speaker 2: you see a kind of backlash against that, where people say,

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Speaker 2: it's just confusing for me. If we're doing away with

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Speaker 2: these categories, what are you going to replace it with?

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Speaker 2: And that's where I think there's resonance. Not that I

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Speaker 2: agree with it, but there's resonance about critiques of pronouns

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Speaker 2: and bathrooms and things like that. And so it's always

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Speaker 2: going to be a kind of back and forth. And

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Speaker 2: I think that Trump has put his face on that

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Speaker 2: by picking these picking the He's just very good at

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Speaker 2: like picking those issues and saying, the world's going to

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Speaker 2: spin away from you, and I'm the only guy who

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Speaker 2: can defend it. And I do think the Democrats have

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Speaker 2: had a hard time navigating that, and it's got real consequences.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at the battleover abortion rights

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Speaker 2: in New York, for example, the language of the abortion

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Speaker 2: bill in New York that talked about pregnant people, not

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Speaker 2: women's right to abortion, is now being used by the

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Speaker 2: right to undermine I mean, the Democrats are really at

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Speaker 2: risk in New York of some real surprises. So there's

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Speaker 2: a kind of back and forth between anxiety and I let.

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Speaker 1: Me let me ask you this though. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: have so many issues with this, but I really take

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Speaker 1: issue with the word anxiety. And maybe it is because

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Speaker 1: it harkens back to this feeling around oh, economic anxiety.

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Speaker 1: Economic anxiety in twenty sixteen was a code for racism.

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Speaker 1: So are we talking now about oh, the anxiety that

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Speaker 1: white men and young men, because it isn't just white men,

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Speaker 1: it's young Latino men and black men that are Generation

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Speaker 1: Z is it? This anxiety is about the power that

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Speaker 1: women have gained over the last several decades. And so

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Speaker 1: now I don't know what box I'm in, And my

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Speaker 1: question is why do we need boxes? Because who do

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Speaker 1: they benefit?

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Speaker 2: Jonathan, right, I think what is being tapped into. Maybe

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Speaker 2: anxiety is the wrong word. I think basically, if you

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Speaker 2: grew up where I am now Tennessee, in two miles

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Speaker 2: from where I'm sitting right now, you grew up in

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Speaker 2: a conservative state with a religious I mean, there's religion

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Speaker 2: everywhere here. There's more churches than there are like hot

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Speaker 2: dog stands. It's like the opposite of every places I've

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Speaker 2: ever lived, except Missouri, where I grew up. And so

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Speaker 2: I think it's about values, like, oh, my values about

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Speaker 2: family or tradition are being threatened, and so that when

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Speaker 2: I say anxiety, that's what I mean. That there's a

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Speaker 2: question of values or being devalued. Now, maybe I think

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Speaker 2: anxiety is the wrong word, but I do think that

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Speaker 2: that kind of concern that my way of life is

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Speaker 2: being threatened leads to either a backlash or it's easily

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Speaker 2: manipulated into a backlash. I think that there's both of

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Speaker 2: those things. And so if you're going to say there's

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Speaker 2: no categories, I just think it leads to those kind

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Speaker 2: of concerns, like people saying, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, my question is what is the benefit of boxes?

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Speaker 1: Because if you ask me, where has there been a

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Speaker 1: benefit of boxes? Boxes only benefit those that are at

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Speaker 1: the top of a pyramid. Because if I can easily

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Speaker 1: place you into a situation, then I can easily stereotype you,

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Speaker 1: I can easily dismiss you. But if I'm saying that

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Speaker 1: actually humanity is a much more fluid than that, and

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Speaker 1: I don't want to go off into a philosophical tangent,

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Speaker 1: but if I'm saying that our and our sexual orientation

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Speaker 1: is much more fluid than the rigidity that has been

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Speaker 1: placed on us since the beginning of time, then how

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Speaker 1: do we adapt to what is that actual real science,

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Speaker 1: which is that human beings are actually much more fluid.

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Speaker 1: Then we've been situated to believe that we are. Women

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Speaker 1: actually have much more power and agency and have just

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Speaker 1: been robbed of that since the beginning of time until

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Speaker 1: they were able to have economic power and able to

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Speaker 1: have a voice with a vote. And so when we

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Speaker 1: look at the structures of how society was built in

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Speaker 1: the boxes that they were built on, it was to

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Speaker 1: preserve and enhance patriarchy. So when I hear you say, well,

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Speaker 1: if we do away with categories, then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: there is this anxiety and I'm just using that term

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Speaker 1: because I don't know what else to call it. There

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Speaker 1: is this supple anxiety. But then you're saying that we

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Speaker 1: should be talking to the people that are anxious and

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Speaker 1: holding their hand along the way, as opposed to, in

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Speaker 1: my humble opinion, what are the tools and skills that

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Speaker 1: these people need actually to adapt to a different way

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Speaker 1: of thinking and being.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me say two things about that. I mean, first,

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Speaker 2: as you know, I think there are ways to have

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Speaker 2: it both ways. I think the Democrats are kind of

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Speaker 2: boxed in sometimes by not being able to I think

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Speaker 2: there are ways to speak to this in a way

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Speaker 2: that also are true to values. I think Harris Interrcy

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Speaker 2: in an interview just kept saying I haven't changed. I

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Speaker 2: haven't changed. But as we spoke about last week, I

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Speaker 2: do think there are ways to talk about entrepreneurialism, economy,

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Speaker 2: better ment, health, crime, all the things we talked about

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Speaker 2: last week that I do think Democrats can signal in

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Speaker 2: a ways that are better kind of linked to what

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Speaker 2: you're saying right now, you know, I worry. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we can talk next week about what's happening with the

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Speaker 2: reaper active choice legislation in New York, which I think

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Speaker 2: is a pretty serious issue right now, which is about

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Speaker 2: doing away with categories and the political implications of that.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not saying we should all become like the

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Speaker 2: man is the head of the household or something like that,

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Speaker 2: but I do think that there have to be ways

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Speaker 2: of saying what you're saying right, which is a rising

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Speaker 2: tide lifts all boats and all those kind of things, Like,

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Speaker 2: I think there has to be a better way. But

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Speaker 2: I think with the way this plays out, because we're

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Speaker 2: in a zero sum political system, is that these fights

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Speaker 2: come out in very stereotypical, polarizing ways, and they have

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Speaker 2: huge implications and so well, of course, theoretically I totally

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Speaker 2: agree with what you're saying, of course, like that's the

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Speaker 2: basis of a lot of my work about gender and race.

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Speaker 2: But I would just say, because I'm also an ethnographer,

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Speaker 2: I interview people. I try to understand their point of view,

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Speaker 2: and so I would say that in the interviews that

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Speaker 2: I do, I also think that people's concern is not

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Speaker 2: just I don't want to give up my privilege. It's like,

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Speaker 2: where do I fit into the worldview that you're presenting?

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Speaker 1: And I think but that to me, that is the

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Speaker 1: valid question. That's a valid question of as the world changes,

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Speaker 1: what is my role and responsibility in this new system?

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's a question that democrats in

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Speaker 1: many ways are posing. That the world is changing, and

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Speaker 1: I would just push back on what you said about

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Speaker 1: the Vice president or CNN interview. What she was talking

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Speaker 1: about is the fact that her values have not changed.

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Speaker 1: How you approach strategy is going too different from administration

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Speaker 1: to administration. But if I still have values that are

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Speaker 1: aligned with democracy, that are aligned with equity and justice, right,

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Speaker 1: then you have to understand that my character has not changed.

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Speaker 1: How I perceive and decide to create different policies. That's

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Speaker 1: a tactic in order to move society forward. And so

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Speaker 1: it wasn't of a I haven't changed. I haven't changed

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Speaker 1: as in like I am a statf. It's that you

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Speaker 1: can rely on my character because my values have not changed,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to the other guy who has no character

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Speaker 1: and has no values, and they change with whoever puts

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Speaker 1: a check in front of his face.

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Speaker 2: Right, I mean to be fair, The question I think

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Speaker 2: she was answering at the time was about fracking and

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Speaker 2: changing our view on fracking. So it wasn't about gender.

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Speaker 2: Just want to be clear about that. And so I

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Speaker 2: also think it's possible to say, look, I've evolved, you know,

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Speaker 2: like I've been in power and I changed my views

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Speaker 2: about things, and I understand now that it's easier to

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Speaker 2: tweet a bunch of stuff than it is to actually

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Speaker 2: make decisions that impact groups of people. So that was

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Speaker 2: the answer I wish would have been given. But again,

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Speaker 2: also again, we're in a very you know, there's always

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Speaker 2: a push and pull in history, and we're in one

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Speaker 2: of those moments where winning this election has profound consequences,

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Speaker 2: and so you want to be open and strategic. And

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Speaker 2: I think the caveat I just apologize for keep giving

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Speaker 2: caveats is that I mean, I think that the Tim

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Speaker 2: Walls version of masculinity is speaking to a lot of people. Well,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of men in Red States who

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Speaker 2: want their partners, spouses, wives to have the right to

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Speaker 2: get an abortion if they have a non viable fetus

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Speaker 2: or something like that. Like, I think that in a way,

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Speaker 2: it's not like these categories are so clear cut. But

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Speaker 2: the danger I think for Democrats is, I mean, I'm

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Speaker 2: seeing this with guns that people think people like Timwolves

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Speaker 2: represent What did they represent? He certainly doesn't represent the

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Speaker 2: majority of gun owners who are down here, like NRA

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Speaker 2: members who buy the NRA line or something like that.

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Speaker 2: So the issue is it's a you know, a metonym,

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Speaker 2: a piece of a whole. What is the hole that's

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Speaker 2: being represented? Is there a movement toward a new definition

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Speaker 2: of masculinity that he represents, or are we highlighting, as

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Speaker 2: we talked about last week, the converts who are not

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Speaker 2: a valid sample size except for people who are willing

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Speaker 2: to come over to our side. And so I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, you want to talk to the most numbers

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Speaker 2: of people you can.

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Speaker 1: I like this question, and I actually want to hold

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Speaker 1: this question for next week for us to be able

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Speaker 1: to tease out more because I think that the question

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Speaker 1: is there a movement towards a new definition of masculinity?

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Speaker 1: That is really the question that I think that we

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Speaker 1: need to be asking, and we need to be asking

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Speaker 1: in a very specific manner other than to your point,

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Speaker 1: where we have these new representations, whether it is Doug

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Speaker 1: Emhoff the second Gentleman, or if it is Tim Walls

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Speaker 1: and the other men that we saw on the stage

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Speaker 1: at the DNC, there is a very different type of

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Speaker 1: man that is inside of the Democratic Party that they're

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Speaker 1: putting forth, but they're not articulating and asserting it in

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Speaker 1: a way to say men don't have to be one way.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that articulation is something that is

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Speaker 1: missing from the Democrats' agenda. Last word to you before

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Speaker 1: we close for today.

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Speaker 2: I'll go TMI on everybody next week because, as you know,

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Speaker 2: am back on these goddamn dating apps. And so I've

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Speaker 2: been thinking a lot about gender because there is like,

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Speaker 2: it's just funny that people there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: people who long for what they imagine to be traditional

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Speaker 2: gender norms. I'm seeing this a lot, and so it's

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Speaker 2: tapping This is a question about the election, but it's

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Speaker 2: tapping into something bigger, which is that the world feels

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Speaker 2: like it's spinning away to a lot of people, and

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Speaker 2: what do you fall back on, because even if we

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Speaker 2: go towards the future, there's also a lot of we'll say,

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Speaker 2: anxiety about that, like where do we land if we

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Speaker 2: don't have this thing we've been falling back on and

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Speaker 2: tradition brings comfort, but change is concerning sometimes. So this

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Speaker 2: is happening out in the world right now.

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Speaker 1: Also, we will leave it there today, folks. In the

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Speaker 1: episode notes of the show, the link to the article

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Speaker 1: in the New York Times that I think is worth

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Speaker 1: a read. Many gen Z Men feel left behind. Some

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Speaker 1: see Trump as an answer and we'll pick up and

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Speaker 1: continue this conversation next week. As always, I appreciate you.

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Speaker 1: That is it for me today, dear friends on Woke

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Speaker 1: a f as always, Power to the people and to

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Speaker 1: all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.