WEBVTT - Thought Leaders 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:09.000 Hello, Snaffoo listeners. I've been pondering the world's deepest questions. 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:10.080 Why are we here? 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:13.000 Who will win the World Cup later this week? 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.200 What is the meaning of life? 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:17.480 Are La boo boos always. 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:18.759 Going to be popular or is it just like a 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:21.480 twenty twenty five thing? And if so, what's the new 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:23.599 la boo boo of twenty twenty six? Is there a 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:26.239 chance I could make an ed booboo? 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:28.440 You know what? No? 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:32.720 AnyWho, The people who do the real cognitive acrobatics, the 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.760 real critical ponderers. Those are the folks that get me 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.440 really thinking the most, people like Adam Grant, Kara Swisher, 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:44.360 Scott Galloway, Kelly Corrigan, or one of my oldest buddies, 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.720 Jada bum Rat. The best part is all of those 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:50.600 folks appeared on Snaffoo this season, and they blew me 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:54.840 away with their adept insights and quick witticisms. The way 0:00:54.880 --> 0:01:01.160 these folks interpret and evaluate snaffoos it's really cool. It's 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:06.600 eye opening and incredibly insightful and also at times extremely funny. 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:10.240 So this week I'm really excited to share a few 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:14.000 of my favorite moments with our favorite thought leaders. Enjoyment 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:23.959 Kelly Gorgan Wonders is a phenomenal podcast which I highly recommend. 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.600 You're five years in over seven hundred episodes. The format 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:31.000 of the show, it's basically a masterclass in human curiosity, 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:35.240 in exploring what makes us tick, what we fear and love, 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.319 and how we cope. And I'm just curious, after all 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.280 of that deep listening, do. 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:46.760 You feel any closer to the secret of living a 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:51.320 good life? Or is there anything like some crazy counterintuitive 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:55.760 revelation about the human condition that you've landed on. 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:59.560 More than sometimes when you're listening to someone a guest 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.120 on the show, so they synthesize things in such a 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:06.080 memorable way that it's almost like I've sort of known this, 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:08.160 I've sort of intuited this my whole life, but now 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.400 you just put the words on it. So two that 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:14.519 come to mind or this. We had this neuroscientist on 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:18.520 named Lisa feldmcbarratt. She's some top one percent scientists cited worldwide, 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.320 so in any discipline, so. 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.239 She's really respected. 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.919 And she has a great book called How Emotions Are Made, 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.560 And that's what we were talking about. And the line 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.640 she said was the best thing for a human central 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:38.400 nervous system is another human central nervous system, and the 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:42.280 worst thing for a human central nervous system is another 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:46.360 human central nervous ament. So pick your human central nervous 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:51.639 systems wisely, right, And that's the feeling that you get. 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:53.840 I mean, that's what happened when we first met. Really 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:56.040 is my es central nervous system in your central nervousystem 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:57.120 kind of wrapped up against each other. 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.320 And I was like, oh, this is a good Yeah, but. 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.640 That's a lot of pressure when you're like on the 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:02.840 life partner choices. 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:05.320 That's like, oh, geez, I better get this right. 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:06.240 Well. 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.120 I mean, this other guest said that we're an average 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:10.760 of the five people we spend the most time with 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.320 M and so that's sort of a related thought. And 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:18.799 then this other guest said that listening is so close 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:21.160 to love that most people can't tell the difference. 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:21.840 Wow. 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:25.120 And so if you kind of glue those all together, 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:29.000 you get some clarity about like who you're looking for 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:31.600 out there, and you're looking for people who can be still, 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:37.200 who can listen, who can take it in, And that's 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.440 the central nervous system that's going to work for you. 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:41.760 And that's the central nervous system that's going to make 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:42.360 you better. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:46.720 I love that because I've always felt that profound insights 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.360 are things that we hear that were like these aha moments. 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:52.840 They feel like aha moments, right, they feel like things that. 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.920 Like, oh my god, what a revelation. I now understand 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:59.880 that better. But you're really just it's our It's actually just. 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:03.680 A affirming something that you already felt. The only reason it's. 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.520 An AHA moment is because you know that it's true 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.080 the second you hear it, because it resonates with something 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:13.040 already in you to And I just I. 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:15.160 Love that because it speaks to this. 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:19.040 Like kind of like grand human intuition that we all 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:21.840 share and that we all could we all understand these 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:23.000 fundamental truths. 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:28.640 Yeah, so that intuition is being developed and honed by knowledge. 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:32.280 How you feel from podcasting that you're just full of 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.040 so much more information to draw from, Like I feel 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.680 like my inputs in the last five years have gone 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:38.400 through the roof. 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:42.239 I love that podcasting has emerged as such a vital 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.159 medium in our culture now because it feels. 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:47.880 Like an antidote to social media. It feels like an 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:48.880 antidote to all of. 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:54.440 The that just like crazy, flashy quick disposable stuff. Yes, 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:58.200 to your point, it has provided a great scaffolding for 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:03.360 my curiosity and connection with so many cool people like yourself. 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:06.640 I see this as basically the collision of two very 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:11.360 primal emotions. It's rage versus fear. You have the workers 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.520 raging about inequality, and then of course elites are afraid 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.920 of losing their status and their fancy things. Is this 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:22.839 dynamic just baked into capitalism or is there a better 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.280 way that is socialism kind of trying to have both 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:27.839 both sides. 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:29.159 Oh, I think. 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.240 I mean, Scott can talk more about this because he 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:33.120 talks about sort of the rage. But one of the 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:34.799 things I just interviewed Bernie Sanders. 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:36.040 It was very good. 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.240 It was very mad about the oligarchs. He's a book 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.760 called Fighting Oligarchy, And you know, so, I think this 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.520 isn't a new thing. But one of the things that's 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:46.919 important to keep in mind is that it's usually preceded 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.520 by an area where lots of people get really rich, 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.839 like really really rich, and we're in that and many 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.760 years ago when this income and equality started to really 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.000 and then the tech people are the new winners, essentially 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.520 tech moguls. When they started to get ahead. I went 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:05.080 to one of them and I said, we have a 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:07.360 real problem with incoming quality. You could see the numbers 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:11.080 the minimum wage hadn't hadn't been rising, And I said, 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.560 you're either going to have to deal with the inequality 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.279 and give people a better wage like solve it, or 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:19.840 you're going to have to armor plate your tesla. And 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:22.080 I looked at him and I realized he wanted to 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:23.480 armor plate his tesla. 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:24.640 That was okay. 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:27.719 Like they thought that they had gotten all their money 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:31.440 by their own doing and not by help by the government, etc. 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.599 And they didn't care about people, And you could see that. 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:35.279 Yeah. 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.279 For the If I were to try and think of 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:41.560 one piece of data that explains the epicenter of many 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:43.240 of our problems, it would be the following. For the 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:45.360 first time in our two hundred and seventy five year history, 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:47.360 a thirty year old American isn't doing as well as 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:49.760 his or her parents were at thirty, and that not 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.599 only keeps creates rage and shame among a young group 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:54.480 of people who are more likely to pick up guns, 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.400 specifically young men, it creates rage and shame. 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:58.120 Across the household. 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:01.520 The algorithm or the power and you're referring to it 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.040 plays out over and over in a capitalist society, and 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:08.000 it's the following. A group of very talented, very hard working, 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:12.000 and very lucky people gather a disproportionate amount of assets, 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.480 and then we talk ourselves into believing that it is 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:18.760 patriotic and not a bad thing to create tax policy, 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.960 legislative policy, and regulatory captures such that corporations can have 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:26.040 their lowest taxes since nineteen thirty nine. Now such at 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.960 the twenty six wealthiest families in America pan average tax 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:33.360 rate of six percent. That is now the bad news 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:34.440 about income in equalities. 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:35.080 That always happens. 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:37.040 The good news is it's always self correcting. And more 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.600 bad news, though, is that the means of correction are 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:43.040 usually war, famine, or revolution. And I would argue that 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:45.560 as revolutions take on new complexion, we're in the midst 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.640 of a series of small revolutions. Black Lives Matter and 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.920 the Me Too movement, we're both righteous movements that had 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:55.800 real justifiable components. But they weren't going after the sexual 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:59.040 harassmer owner of a taco truck. They weren't going after 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:01.760 someone who is racist in a small company. They were 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:05.080 going after rich people and at some point when the 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.000 bottom fifty two percent of America have the same amount 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.520 of wealth as Elon Musk, they figure out that the 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:12.920 fastest way to double their wealth is to. 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:13.960 Go after that person. 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:15.960 And that's where we are. At some point. We are 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.600 having a series of small revolutions to try and correct 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:19.600 income inequality. 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.920 Yeah. Heavy, that's a good break heavy, that's heavy. It's 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:24.200 a good breakdown, and people. 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:24.560 Are getting it. 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:27.920 I'm sort of shocked we haven't had much more of 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:32.040 a of a revolution or anger over money. 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:38.360 The crazy thing is that back in nineteen nineteen these 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:44.040 workers were in like really horrendous conditions and still trying 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:44.760 to make it work. 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:46.680 But it's sort of it's all relative, right. 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:50.440 It doesn't matter, It doesn't matter what, like what the 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:55.040 actual conditions might be. It's the disparity itself that is 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:59.040 So that just feels so off. 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.720 Well, that's a that's a great that's a great point. 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:05.920 Just interrupt you, because if there's something to the notion, 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:08.520 and this is true, this is a true statement. A 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:11.280 middle class person right now is living better than the 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.440 richest person on the planet one hundred years ago. And 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:19.200 middle class Mississippi's our poor estate. It has a higher 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:23.200 household income than the UK or Germany or France. So 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:27.480 America is actually you could correctly say a middle class 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.120 person in the US is thriving and doing really well. 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.440 But that's not how the human brain works. The human 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:35.920 brain sees two hundred and ten times a day that 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:37.560 if they're not on a Gulf streamer, don't have a 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:41.960 boyfriend with ripped abs, that they're failing. And also they're 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:45.200 living with roommates because they the price of a home 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:47.280 went from two ninety to four hundred and twenty thousand 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:50.440 dollars during COVID because we flushed the market was so 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.760 much stimulus because me or you or care getting less 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.360 wealthy would be a crime greater than a million people dying. 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:01.040 And the natural cycle of redistributing income destroying capital during 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:04.600 crises that seeds economic advantage back from the capital owners 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.160 to labor. We didn't allow happen. And what was most 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:10.360 criminal about it was we use their credit card to 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:14.360 pay for our incumbency. So these people, you know, you 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:16.640 can understand people say young people are entitled. 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:17.120 No they're not. 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:20.679 They're entitled to be enraged. And you have just this 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:26.520 incredible shifting of economic prosperity, and there reminded several hundred 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:28.720 times a day on their phones that they're failing. 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:29.760 So try to tell that. 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.600 It's like the mistake democrats made trying to tell people 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.200 inflation is not that bad. Well, okay, it feels that 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.800 bad to me. And I also want to be clear, 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:43.120 this is a bipartisan issue. What Trump has effectively done 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:47.640 really well is like, Okay, Republicans and Republican donors, I'm 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.040 going to divide up TikTok. I'm going to give you 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:53.320 ai legislation that makes you richer. And Democrats who are 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:55.640 really rich and whole lot of the power. There's a 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.199 really uncomfortable silence of conspiracy that says, don't get too 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.000 angry because you're going to make bank if you're a 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:05.120 rich Democrat. And one of the most disappointing things about 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:07.600 this is good democrats who are in positions of powers 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:11.040 have been fucking silent on all of this. Why could 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:14.920 stop stop? It hurts so good? My taxes are going down. 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:16.440 I would agree. 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.480 Yeah, absolutely brutal. 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:20.920 And also, you know, at the it's all often at 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.040 the expense of the young towards the old, and you know, 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.000 you see it in Congress where they're you know, antiquated, 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:31.280 and they're making rules that would benefit But the top. 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.720 Groups that has that story has all the things ed 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.720 like that. That is a that is that is something 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:43.559 I liked how you kind of right at the Connecticut moment, 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:47.640 you sort of you spun it into a a sort 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.120 of clue knives out who done it kind of situation. 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:55.000 They lived large back then, you know, they explored large, 0:11:55.080 --> 0:12:00.640 They they poisoned large, They beefed pretty large. It's a 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.440 it's a I feel like our lives are soft and 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:07.520 small by comparison, although maybe we're better for it. You know, 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:08.720 that's quite a tale. 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:11.480 What I love about this story and what I loved 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:15.200 about it for you in particular, was how science is 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:20.760 part of the murder mystery. And I I always loved how, 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:26.760 you know, Radio Lab episodes would unpack a narrative, whether 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.160 it was a mystery, whether it was even a science 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:34.480 based narrative. Very often science was part of the if 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:40.720 not the sort of mechanism of discovery in Radio Lab episodes. Yeah, 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:43.800 it speaks to the power of science both from just 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:49.040 a a research standpoint. I mean, here's a guy at Dartmouth, 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:54.640 this lumis professor. He's just writing a biography and and 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.320 and turns out, Oh, I've got reason to suspect. 0:12:58.040 --> 0:12:58.640 He was murdered. 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:00.760 We're going to go dig him up and run these 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:05.800 tests on him, and lo and behold, all this new 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:09.960 evidence emerges. And there's just no end to what we 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.679 can learn when science is applied in the right ways 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:15.040 and with creativity. 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.000 Yeah, what I was thinking about as you were talking 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:22.000 was the way science has changed over the years. Right, 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:24.840 there was a period in the nineteenth century and really 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.680 in the precise moment that this story is unfolding, where 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.679 what it meant to be a scientist It was this 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:36.160 kind of like the era of the gentleman scientist, where 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.440 they would get on a boat and sail to a 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:40.560 new land and they would collect species, and then they 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:45.160 would create these cabinets of curiosities of butterflies and birds 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:49.520 and you know, all kinds of marsupials, and there's something 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.480 sort of imperial about it, and there's such an abundance, 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:58.400 and they're grabbing from the land and really collecting and 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:00.000 trying to out do each other. But on the other hand, 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.800 and there is just this kind of wonderful sense of 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.160 openness and discovery of the world is full of things 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.760 that might seem magical, but we through inquiry and a method, 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:14.320 will demystify them and we can there's a sense of 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.360 like a naive sense that we can know everything. And 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.760 it's interesting to juxtapose that in a split screen in 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:25.000 your mind to where we are now, where there's science 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:29.080 has never been more robust, and there's so much. I mean, 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:33.120 my mother, just as a personal example, has been studying 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:38.080 one protein for forty something years at this point in 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:44.080 what capacity as a as a biologist she discovered or 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.720 not discovered. I mean, it was there, but she kind 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:48.800 of came to know this protein, brought it to the 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.920 world's attention, and has been studying it every day for 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.400 forty years. And like that's what science is now. It's 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:59.760 just like unbelievable rigor and dedication and discipline. And yet 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:03.360 you're in this like Maha moment when Chah, science kind 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.520 of hold on the truth has been a bit marginalized. 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:11.200 But you know, I say to myself, and I'm spinning 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.040 myself into a cul de sac here, I say to myself, 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:14.960 you know, science was always one way of knowing the world, 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:16.640 and it's not the only way, and now all the 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:20.360 different ways have to compete, and maybe that's maybe that's 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:21.200 where we are. 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:21.840 Very well said. 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:27.680 I think, yeah, that the sort of magic of science 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:34.400 is getting confused with the magic of wellness. Stories that 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:39.200 make you feel good wellness, narratives that grossly oversimplify and 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.640 just kind of give us that doorphin rush. But good science, 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:46.600 hard science, disciplined science, also provides that it's just a 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.640 lot harder, and it's a lot harder to consume. In 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:53.600 nineteen oh seven, Ponzi landed in Montreal and scored a 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:55.960 job as an assistant teller at a small bank serving 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.280 Italian immigrants, and it was there that he witnessed the 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:03.200 original mad of the scam he would later perfect. His boss, 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:09.000 Luigi Zorosi, lured depositors with absurdly generous interest rates, and 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:13.680 amazingly he would pay them, of course, by funneling new 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:17.960 deposits straight to the earlier investors. It was a beautifully 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:22.520 unsustainable system. So when the bank inevitably crashed and Zorosi 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:27.080 bolted for Mexico to avoid accountability, Ponzi was left behind, 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:32.200 unemployed but newly educated in the fine art of financial 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.720 Tom foolery. Now most of us would look at this 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:41.480 whole mess and think, Okay, well that backfired. Maybe crime 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.800 doesn't pay. What can you tell us about the psychology 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:48.280 of someone who definitely does not learn that lesson, in 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:52.200 fact sort of learns the opposite lesson of like here's 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.840 more opportunity. I mean, do you see like sociopathy at 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.320 play or is it just sort of that healthy or 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:04.440 maybe unhealthy ego with a kind of rules don't apply swagger. 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:06.360 I mean, how dark is that? 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.280 So there are three traits that would normally predict being 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:14.720 attracted to that kind of that kind of scheme, and 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.560 the psychologists call them the dark triad, and you hit 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:21.399 on one of them pretty closely anyway. They're being a narcissist, 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:23.960 being Machiavelian, and being a psychopath. 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.639 H And I. 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:31.239 Think we're probably talking about Machiavelianism here more than we 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.560 are being a narcissist or or a psychopath or sociopath, 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:37.679 because what this kind of scheme is really about is 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.000 it's about manipulating other people and using them for personal gain. 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.240 And you don't have to have a giant inflated ego 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:46.720 to want to do that. You don't have to feel 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.600 no empathy for other people. You just have to be 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.879 a little bit callous around, feeling like, you know what, 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.800 I can use other people a little bit. And in fact, 0:17:58.240 --> 0:17:59.960 I think part of the appeal of a Ponzi scheme 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.600 is you look at that and you say, well, you know, 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.240 if I can keep it going, actually I'm going to 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:07.639 profit and no one else is going to get hurt 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:11.359 because each like each each former investor is going to 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:12.919 get their money back because of a new one. And 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:14.639 so all I have to do is perpetuate it. And 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:17.960 you know, I'm just I'm exploiting a loophole in the system. 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:20.920 I'm not exploiting people so much. And I think if 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.600 you tell yourself that story, you probably sleep at night. 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.800 And it doesn't it doesn't require much more than a 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:28.199 little bit of machiavelianism. 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:30.240 The scale of his operation. 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.000 That's what's so mind blowing is that like the buy 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:37.840 in from so many different people, like the eagerness to want, 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:41.679 like the desire for this to be true is and 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:46.400 for this all to be like a functioning, healthy way 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:51.359 to make money. It's like the things we can force 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:55.000 ourselves to believe, Like he's the perpetrator Ponzi or Bernie 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:57.920 made Off like they're the perpetrators. They're either deluding themselves 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.280 or they're just like criminals or whatever they're whatever's going 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:03.680 on with them. I mean, there's the investors who are 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.000 just pure victims. But then there are people who are 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:10.280 in the organization, right, they're in the running of these things, 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.359 and they have to have a sense of like this 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:17.919 doesn't add up, or it's just like I'm gonna keep 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:20.119 my head in the sand. I'm not gonna like this 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:23.000 spreadsheet looks weird to me, but I'm just not gonna ask, 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.800 because boy, it feels good to trust this, like nice 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:31.560 old man Bernie, who just seems to know who's been 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:34.720 venerated by the great financial institutions for decades. 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:37.800 There are terms that have been coined to describe what 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:39.960 happens to a lot of people in the orbit of 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:45.600 a Ponzier made off. Bendura called it moral disengagement. Ten 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:50.080 Brunzel and Mesk have called it ethical fading, where you 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:53.360 just you stop applying a principled lens to the situation 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:57.960 you're in because other people are accepting it, and you assume, well, 0:19:58.200 --> 0:19:59.920 you know, surely these are not bad people. 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.120 I see them, you know, their their. 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:07.159 Decent parents and partners and caring bosses, and you know 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:10.840 they couldn't be doing anything bad, and you lose sight 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:14.080 of the lines that are being crossed. I think that 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.159 that could be part of what's happening in their orbit. 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:20.440 And maybe the other piece of this is I was 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:25.120 thinking about Maria Kannakova, a psychologist turned poker champ who 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.200 wrote a book called The Confidence Game, and there's a 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.600 quote in that book that shook me. Maria wrote, the 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.080 true con artist doesn't force us to do anything. He 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:37.679 makes us complicit in our own undoing. 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.440 Adam, what are you and I complicit in right now 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:41.399 that we have no idea? 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:43.000 Is part of our own doing? 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.480 I really hope nothing, But you know, just thinking about 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.680 what happens to the early employees, in the early clients, 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:52.960 they are to recruit other people into the scheme. Of course, 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:56.000 you try to get your friends hired at this great company. 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.240 You try to get your you know, your family to 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:02.560 invest in this, you know, this fun with incredible returns, 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:08.120 and pretty soon you have a strong incentive to see 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:08.879 no evil. 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:10.960 I want to bring this into the present moment a 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:12.480 little bit. I love digging into this. 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:16.520 Story because of how hyper relevant it feels today in 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:19.639 the age of Internet scammers and just this sort of 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:21.200 like new generation of con. 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:22.560 Artists that have emerged. 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:24.719 I mean, it's it's funny to think of Charles Ponzi 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:29.199 as perhaps now him being like an Instagram influencer, you know, 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:31.040 who's just like taking people in. 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:34.200