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Speaker 1: I believe in the right to speak the truth, even

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Speaker 1: if it's uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: There are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridge Todd and this

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Speaker 2: is there are No Girls on the Internet. America feels

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Speaker 2: like it is doing a speed run into full on

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Speaker 2: crackdowns on free expression. In the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder,

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Speaker 2: MSNBC's Matthew Dowd was fired for saying something as basic

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Speaker 2: as hateful thoughts lead to hateful words, which lead to

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Speaker 2: hateful actions. He told Katie Kuric this week that the

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Speaker 2: network admitted his comments were misconstrued, but that they still

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Speaker 2: refused to give him his job back. Late night hosts

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Speaker 2: Jimmy Kimmel called out Mageth for exploiting Kirk's death, and

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Speaker 2: Disney cave to FCC pressure, firing him only to whiplash

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Speaker 2: less than a week later, and announced his show would

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Speaker 2: return this week. Jimmy Kimmel's firing got a lot of attention,

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Speaker 2: and rightly so. But we need to make sure that

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Speaker 2: black women, who are so often the canary and a

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Speaker 2: coal mine for additional attacks on freedom of expression, are

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Speaker 2: not ignored because after eleven years at the Washington Post.

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Speaker 2: Karen Attia was pushed out too, And at this point,

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Speaker 2: I don't even think any of this is really about

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Speaker 2: what people actually said about Charlie Kirk. It's about sending

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Speaker 2: a message dissent will be punished. Sadly, this is not

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Speaker 2: even Karen's first rodeo. The last time that we spoke,

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Speaker 2: her course on race, international Relations and Media at Columbia

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Speaker 2: University had just been canceled, scrapped under pressure from the

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Speaker 2: Trump administration. When we sat down to speak this time around,

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Speaker 2: it was really clear Karen is still working to process

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Speaker 2: all of this, but she's also not giving up without

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Speaker 2: a fight. How are you? I know, it has been

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Speaker 2: a rough couple of days, A lot going on. Just

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Speaker 2: how are you as a human?

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Speaker 1: How am I as a human? I sort of I

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Speaker 1: think I'm just like one big, like adrenaline popsicle. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what an adrenaline popsicle like would look like

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Speaker 1: or taste like. It's just gosh, I've gotten so much

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Speaker 1: sort of support questions. I'm still kind of processing the

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Speaker 1: fact that I was let go from a job, a

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Speaker 1: place that i've sort of called my institutional work home.

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Speaker 1: For the last seleven years. So it's definitely a hurricane.

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Speaker 1: I am an adrenaline popsicle being tossed around in this hurricane,

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Speaker 1: it feels, but I'm glad to be here. I'm glad

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Speaker 1: to you know, spend some time kind of processing everything here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The last time that you and I spoke, it

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Speaker 2: was about resistant summer school course on race and media

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Speaker 2: that you developed after Colombia pretty shamelessly cave to the

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Speaker 2: Trump administration and canceled this super popular, well liked class

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Speaker 2: you've been teaching there. I kind of hate that this

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Speaker 2: is a theme. But did that prepare you at all

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Speaker 2: or set the stage for what ended up happening at.

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Speaker 1: The post what's that shirt where some of where it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you study the culture, I am the culture. You know.

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Speaker 1: I kind of feel a little bit of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you study cancel culture, I am the cancel culture right now. Yeah, obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know, two sides of a coin. Colombia obviously being

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Speaker 1: a place where I went to school at Columbia, was

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Speaker 1: a graduate student at the School of International and Public Affairs,

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Speaker 1: So it was always a dream to be able to

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Speaker 1: give back to an extent in my capacities both an

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Speaker 1: alumna and a working journalists to get back to students there.

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Speaker 1: So having that opportunity sort of taken away.

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Speaker 2: Like that hurt.

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Speaker 1: This one is deep with the Washington Post, the opinion sections.

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Speaker 1: This is my This was the only major journalism job

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Speaker 1: I've had state there for eleven years. When I was

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Speaker 1: hired to work in the opinion section, my job was

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Speaker 1: to well, not just right myself. I actually started as

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Speaker 1: an editor, so to uplift other voices, especially you know,

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Speaker 1: voices I disagreed with. I did it all sorts of

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Speaker 1: ranges of things, and so it really it really is

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Speaker 1: and still processing it hurts a lot. I was just

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Speaker 1: doing my job. I was just the same thing, talking

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Speaker 1: about race and power in America, which is what I

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Speaker 1: was hired to do as a calmnist. And to see

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Speaker 1: this sort of one to eighty shift caught me off

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Speaker 1: guard for sure. So did Columbia prepare me for this? No?

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Speaker 2: Not how prepared for something like this.

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Speaker 1: No one is prepared for something like this. I've been

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Speaker 1: in my you know, I've being in the journalism business,

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Speaker 1: being in sort of public figure, being definitely a woman

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Speaker 1: with opinions on the internet, much less, a woman who's

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Speaker 1: paid to give opinions on the Internet comes with its

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Speaker 1: fair share of critique and controversy and sometimes backlash. This time,

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Speaker 1: the comments that I made in the aftermath of the

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Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk shooting, the shootings in Colorado, I did not

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Speaker 1: experience much of any Backlasher's pretty tame. I've had some

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Speaker 1: spicy takes, I know, and I've had a spicy hot

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Speaker 1: Cheeto takes. This wasn't one of them. And if anything,

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Speaker 1: I was extremely somber and lamenting the state of America,

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Speaker 1: and somehow that trips some fire line, particularly talking about

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Speaker 1: white man. I was not prepared for that, because I've

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Speaker 1: been doing my job. I've been prepared to do my

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Speaker 1: job and talk about these things. I was trained to

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Speaker 1: do this. So being punished for doing what I was

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Speaker 1: trained to do, now, of course, I wasn't prepared for that.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about that, because you have really spoken about

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Speaker 2: how there's some misinformation really floating around online about what

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Speaker 2: exactly happened. So set the record straight for us here.

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Speaker 2: I read the letter that you posted from the post

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Speaker 2: on your substack bullshit. In my opinion, I will just

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Speaker 2: say that's my take of what they said, But tell

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Speaker 2: us what exactly happened. What is the Post saying?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So in the actual letter that I got, I

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Speaker 1: know there was a lot of sort of assumptions, rumors,

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Speaker 1: circulations that you know when you say, in the aftermath

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Speaker 1: of the Kirk shooting, people were looking for I only

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Speaker 1: had one post where I mentioned Kirk directly by name,

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Speaker 1: and it was a characterization of his views on black women.

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Speaker 1: There was a quote going around, I think from the

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Speaker 1: Nation that you know, Kirk had said black women black

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Speaker 1: processing power. Had then got updated to you know, he

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Speaker 1: was talking specifically about Joy Reid and certain prominent black women.

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Speaker 1: But nevertheless, this is someone who is long characterized black women,

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Speaker 1: particularly professional black women, interesting me as not being deserving

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Speaker 1: of the job. That was the only time I referenced Kirk.

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Speaker 1: What the Post took issue with, and should I read

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Speaker 1: it myself, is that is that the is that the

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Speaker 1: better approach? I was a hused of gross misconduct. Let's see,

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Speaker 1: let's pull the letter up right here. So, Karen, from

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Speaker 1: the head of HR, I'm writing to inform you that

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Speaker 1: the Post is terminating your employment, effective immediately, for gross misconduct.

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Speaker 1: Let's see here they said your postings on Blue Sky

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Speaker 1: about white men in response to the killing of Charlie

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Speaker 1: Klirk do not comply with our social media policy. For example,

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Speaker 1: you posted quote refusing to tear my clothes and smear

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Speaker 1: my ashes, smear ashes on my face, and performative morning

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Speaker 1: for a white man that espoused violence is not the

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Speaker 1: same as violence. End quote. And this is the second

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Speaker 1: post they are making an example of quote. Part of

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Speaker 1: what keeps America so violent is the assistance that people

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Speaker 1: perform care, empty goodness and absolution for white men who

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Speaker 1: spouse hatred and violence. The end quote. The post says

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Speaker 1: basically that social media postings be respectful and that it's

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Speaker 1: prohibited to disparage people based on their race, gender, or

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Speaker 1: other protected characteristics. So basically me doing my job talking

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Speaker 1: about not actually talking directly about Kirk now, rather about

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Speaker 1: a pattern, documented pattern of shooters, whether it's mass mass shooters,

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Speaker 1: whether it's politically motivated violence, AKAID, domestic terrorism. The facts

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Speaker 1: and the data are there. The overwhelming perpetrators of this

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Speaker 1: crime are white men. I think if you pull out

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Speaker 1: a gun and shoot someone, that is a violent act.

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Speaker 1: Every single post I referenced to white man, I said violent,

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Speaker 1: white man, and somehow the Post is interpreting what I

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Speaker 1: am saying as to be that I am being racist

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Speaker 1: against white men. I never said all white men. I

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Speaker 1: never even said vost white men. I very specifically said

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Speaker 1: those who commit violence and espouse hatred and violence. I

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Speaker 1: don't think that's an inherent characteristic of white men, but

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Speaker 1: maybe the post does. I'm sure we will see their

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Speaker 1: reasoning soon enough. But yes, that is the real stated

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Speaker 1: reason I was fired as a race calmness, race gender,

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Speaker 1: human rights calmness because I mentioned white men.

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Speaker 2: It all kind of sounds like an insult to white

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Speaker 2: that the post is sort of insulting white men because

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Speaker 2: you said violent white men. That's what I'm talking about,

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Speaker 2: And they're saying, oh, that's an insult to white men everywhere.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, well, what do you think about?

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Speaker 1: What?

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Speaker 2: Like? It's sort of a revealing way to put it,

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Speaker 2: don't you agree?

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Speaker 1: I don't know what was going to do. I was

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Speaker 1: very clear for me, as a human, as a writer,

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Speaker 1: words mean things. I put the what's them? I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: back to my grammar. My grammar day is the restrictive

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Speaker 1: relative clause, meaning this is a subset of a demographic

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Speaker 1: that has been documented by the FBI, the National Institute

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Speaker 1: of Health Research, up to research and study after study,

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Speaker 1: not only of the carrying out of these crimes, but

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Speaker 1: also of the media coverage, the tone, the framing, the angles.

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Speaker 1: When we find out that the perpetrators are white men, right,

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Speaker 1: we get this sort of he came from a good home,

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Speaker 1: he was an all American boy.

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Speaker 3: You know, there is a very very very specific and

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Speaker 3: small group of humans who do those sort of things.

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Speaker 1: But you know, so anyone can go back. That's why

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Speaker 1: I posted the letter, and a lot of people judge

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Speaker 1: for themselves, and that's why I left up my social

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Speaker 1: media postings. I still stand behind what I said because

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Speaker 1: it was the truth. I was doing my job. This

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Speaker 1: is reflected in data. Again, you know, i'd be I'm

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Speaker 1: still stunned, honestly, I still I don't know. My job

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Speaker 1: is that words mean things. I don't know why the

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Speaker 1: post has decided that that's not what they're gonna do.

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Speaker 1: And you know, and you know, in my post, anyone

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Speaker 1: can go back and see that I was actually you know,

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Speaker 1: referencing more so lamenting the empty rhetoric we have around

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Speaker 1: political violence, the thoughts and prayers that this is not

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Speaker 1: who we are. The political violence has no place here.

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Speaker 1: And that sort of thing again in a context not

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Speaker 1: just of Charlie kirk shooting, but we had another shooting

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Speaker 1: that day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in Colorado with a right wing extremist, suspective perpetrator.

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Speaker 2: No one's really talking about it.

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Speaker 1: Who knows the names of those kids, I'm sure plenty

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Speaker 1: of people do, But who got the national visuals the

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Speaker 1: mornings death frets on their behalf? Not those kids in Colorado.

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Speaker 1: So in my mind, I'm taking that as a holistic

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Speaker 1: picture of where we are. Don't only when it comes

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Speaker 1: to gun violence in America, but when it comes to

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Speaker 1: who do we give care and attention too? Yeah, as

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Speaker 1: those as the as the victims, who do we rhetorically

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Speaker 1: sort of demand mourning from.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of mourning? On Sunday, there was a public event

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Speaker 2: honoring Charlie Kirk. They called it a funeral, but it

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Speaker 2: looked more like a political rally, pyrotechnics. Trump on stage,

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Speaker 2: railing against Biden and his other political opponents, claiming without

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Speaker 2: evidence that tiln all causes autism, and even talking about

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Speaker 2: a federal takeover of Chicago for Charlie. And that's when

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Speaker 2: Trump mentioned Kirk at all, because as over the top

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Speaker 2: as the whole thing was, Charlie Kirk honestly kind of

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Speaker 2: sounded like an afterthought. And honestly, it wasn't hard to

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Speaker 2: think that Jimmy, Kimmel and Karen had been right. The

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Speaker 2: whole spectacle seemed less about grief and honoring someone's legacy

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Speaker 2: and more about politics wrapped up in the language of mourning.

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Speaker 2: Something that really sticks with me about your post, the

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Speaker 2: post the post quoted in the letter was that it

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Speaker 2: seemed to me, I mean, I understood the point that

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Speaker 2: you were making clearly right. It's about excessive mourning and

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Speaker 2: the expectation of excessive emotionality. Who gets that? And I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you saw they were calling it a funeral,

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Speaker 2: but I'm gonna call it a rally. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you saw that yesterday. After watching that spectacle, it

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Speaker 2: is difficult to disagree with that characterization that you laid

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Speaker 2: out on that post that. I mean, I don't think

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Speaker 2: anybody could watch it and not say this seems excessive.

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Speaker 2: The funeral that was held. Really, when I watched it,

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Speaker 2: your words were echoing. It was looming large as I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, Karen really called it, this does seem

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Speaker 2: excessive hashtag?

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Speaker 1: I was right, you know, even even before the funeral, right,

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Speaker 1: like even I think I think even right after my

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Speaker 1: termination letter came through and again like I hmm, I

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Speaker 1: did not even I posted that on Blue Skid. No backlash,

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Speaker 1: you know, really people were like, Okay, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of oh shouldn't you give more space? Like,

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Speaker 1: but largely I just went on my with my day

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Speaker 1: and maybe about yeah, I mean twelve thirteen hours later

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Speaker 1: the next day I missed a phone call from the

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Speaker 1: post and then within minutes like notice of termination, right,

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Speaker 1: and then I think I see later either that afternoon

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Speaker 1: or the day after, might have been the day after

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Speaker 1: I saw a post from Nancy Grace. I think this

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Speaker 1: is once they identified a suspect, an alleged suspect, and

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Speaker 1: Kirk's murder repped. Nancy Grace all of a sudden starts

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Speaker 1: talking about we should pray for this man, right something

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Speaker 1: like that.

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Speaker 2: The switch up was so like like like a switch was.

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Speaker 1: Flipped Olympic gold medal, I know, like the energy with

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Speaker 1: which like they were able to do that pivot could

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Speaker 1: power a thousand suns, like I was right, because again,

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Speaker 1: this is a pattern. It's not just me, this is

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Speaker 1: this is a pattern. This has been documented, that documented

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Speaker 1: about America, This has been documented about the disparate treatment.

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Speaker 1: So of course, you know not going to be surprised

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Speaker 1: what what you know Sunday has turned into. And when

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Speaker 1: I say part of normalizing the espousing of of hatred

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Speaker 1: also means absolving Charlie Kirk's shooter. We remember the cries

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Speaker 1: for blood, and we would get them if only he

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Speaker 1: was a leftist.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 1: At our back.

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Speaker 2: Over the weekend, investigators announced there was no evidence linking

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Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk's suspected shooter, Tyler Robinson, to any left wing groups,

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Speaker 2: despite the administration's pledge to crack down on left wing

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Speaker 2: groups in retaliation for Kirk's murder, and when the suspect

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Speaker 2: was finally named, the governor of Utah openly expressed disappointment

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Speaker 2: that it wasn't someone they could easily demonize. Instead, he

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Speaker 2: admitted it was one of ours.

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Speaker 4: For thirty three hours, I was I was praying that

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Speaker 4: if this had to happen here, that it wouldn't be

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Speaker 4: one of us. That somebody drove from another state somebody

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Speaker 4: came from another country. Sadly that that prayer was not

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Speaker 4: answered the way I had hoped for.

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Speaker 1: Remember what the Utah governor said, Oh.

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Speaker 2: He was the suspect. Wasn't what we were hoping. He's

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Speaker 2: just a homegrown white guy. Not even just hoping what

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Speaker 2: he was praying. He was praying to God. He was

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Speaker 2: hoping that.

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Speaker 1: It was a divine act of God that the person

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Speaker 1: would be someone that they could easily more easily go actor,

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Speaker 1: someone from another country, someone who was not quote one

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Speaker 1: of us, right, so documented when the shooter, when shooters

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Speaker 1: have been documented to be white men. This is just

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Speaker 1: a representative of the pattern that I was talking about,

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Speaker 1: the absolution, the sort of I've already seen the headlines

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Speaker 1: all American kids for Tyler Robinson. So yeah, I'm just

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Speaker 1: sitting there and I'm like, called it, called it, and

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Speaker 1: I lost my job for that.

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Speaker 2: I know, in the scheme of things, this is not

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Speaker 2: the biggest deal. And I don't want to spend too

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Speaker 2: much time on it because I understand it's not a

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Speaker 2: huge deal. But you know, in media, I have been

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Speaker 2: part of layoffs, part of I've been you know, in

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Speaker 2: the media, you see some things and I do feel

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Speaker 2: that it matters how an organization chooses to let you go.

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Speaker 2: There's a way. Nobody likes getting let go, nobody likes

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Speaker 2: having like being fired, but there is a way to

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Speaker 2: do it that I think signals whether or not this

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Speaker 2: is respectful. And I do think it matters how you're

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Speaker 2: let go. You gave the Post eleven years of your

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Speaker 2: life and they fire you in an email. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's not even I think that not even having a

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Speaker 2: conversation with you before sending that which is really doesn't

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Speaker 2: sit right with me. I know when the schema of

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Speaker 2: things are probably not tripping off of these little details,

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Speaker 2: but something in bad it is like, that's a choice.

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Speaker 2: There are ways to do there are that somebody made

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Speaker 2: a choice to do it that way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and not just that, I mean I, as

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Speaker 1: I said in my substat post, I categorically reject those

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Speaker 1: charges in that letter. I think that it was a

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Speaker 1: breach of their policy and responsibility to me. I think

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Speaker 1: it was a breach and abominable breach of basic journalistic

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Speaker 1: standards right that we are being told to uphold. And

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Speaker 1: this is what I would have said had I been

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Speaker 1: given the right to reply. So so yeah, of course

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Speaker 1: all of these things, all these things matter, and and yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean this is this is a place not only

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Speaker 1: that I gave eleven years too, but for me, my

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Speaker 1: path into not only into journalism, my sort of career

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Speaker 1: actually started in freedom and expression work, as I was

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Speaker 1: a press freedom analyst for Freedom House. Actually my full

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Speaker 1: right scholarship is on looking at freedom of radio speech

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Speaker 1: actually in Ghana. So journalists and people being able to

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Speaker 1: express themselves in the conditions the economic and political conditions

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Speaker 1: that they work under was actually something that is sort

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Speaker 1: of deep at the core of what my work has

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Speaker 1: been even before I started as a professional journalist. And

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Speaker 1: this is why the Washington Post part of the reason

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Speaker 1: why Washington Post hired news because I had this commitments

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Speaker 1: to these principles.

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Speaker 2: Keeping those principles at the forefront of her work has

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Speaker 2: not always been pretty. In twenty seventeen, journalist Jamal Koshoji

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Speaker 2: began writing for The Post under Karen's editorship. Just over

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Speaker 2: a year later, the TV cameras captured him entering the

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Speaker 2: Saudi consulate in Istanbul. He never came out. With her

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Speaker 2: long career of defending press freedom, Karen became the Guardian

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Speaker 2: of Jamal's legacy. The Post devoted its entire op ed

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Speaker 2: page to his final column, delivered to Karen by his

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Speaker 2: assistant the day after he disappeared. In her preface, Karen wrote,

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Speaker 2: the Post held off publishing it because we hoped Jamal

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Speaker 2: would come back to us so that he and I

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Speaker 2: could edit it together. Now I have to accept that

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Speaker 2: is not going to happen. This is the last piece

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Speaker 2: of his I will edit for the Post. This column

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Speaker 2: perfectly captures his commitment and passion for freedom in the

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Speaker 2: Arab world, a freedom he apparently gave us life for.

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Speaker 2: I will be forever grateful he chose the Post as

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Speaker 2: his final journalistic homb one year ago and gave us

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Speaker 2: the chance to work together.

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Speaker 1: So for a lot of people maybe who followed my

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Speaker 1: career as an opinions editor, I was the editor of

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Speaker 1: Jama Kashukci who was murdered were expressing himself in the

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Speaker 1: Washington Post, murdered by Saudi agents, and I put my

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Speaker 1: safety on the line. I had to get personal security.

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Speaker 1: I risked a lot, gave up a lot to advocate

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Speaker 1: not only for Jamal, because I realized advocating for Jamal

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Speaker 1: putting helping to put the Washington Post as a symbol

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Speaker 1: of how it should treat its writers, how it should

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Speaker 1: stand behind its writers even when it's hard. The Washington

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Speaker 1: Post became a symbol for that, and I very much

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Speaker 1: was tied into that. It hurts by heart. I'm stunned

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Speaker 1: and I'm frankly befuddled as to now my connection with

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Speaker 1: the Washington Post not only has been severed, but the

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Speaker 1: relationship has now been inverse that I've been punished, eliminated

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Speaker 1: from their ranks for being the journalist I was trained

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Speaker 1: to be in that doing the work I was paid

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Speaker 1: to do. So it's almost, you know, as if you know.

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Speaker 1: Obviously I did not lose my life like Jamal did,

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Speaker 1: but facing the same sort of pressures that Jamal did

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Speaker 1: is just a chilling reminder of where we now find

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Speaker 1: ourselves in like careening towards the ABYSS in terms of

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Speaker 1: press freedom. Because again it's not just me, you know,

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Speaker 1: I just I got fired two days afterwards or so

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Speaker 1: or a week afterwards. It was Jimmy Kimmel before me I,

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Speaker 1: or at least before I went public. Matthew Down REMEMBERSNBC.

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Speaker 1: So I realized this is part of a climate of

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Speaker 1: chilling of free speech, of critique. I'm not just chilling.

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Speaker 1: I mean this is beyond canceling. This is a certain

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Speaker 1: sort of cruelty to it. You know, it's not just

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Speaker 1: cancel culture. They're using the FCC. Yeah to Jimmy Kimmel,

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Speaker 1: They're abandoning process with me, right, this is a really

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Speaker 1: chilling and scary moment for the I was just doing

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Speaker 1: my job. I've just been sticking to the values that

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Speaker 1: I've always had for the last fifteen years of not

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Speaker 1: only my professional life but my personal life. That I

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Speaker 1: believe in the right to speak the truth, even if

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Speaker 1: it's uncomfortable. And it's sad that The Washington Post has

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Speaker 1: decided to put itself on the wrong side of history

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Speaker 1: in the spite when it seemed like just a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, it seemed really invested in being on

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Speaker 1: the right side of history when it came to silenced

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Speaker 1: and challenged journalists.

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Speaker 2: Now, I don't know, yeah, yeah, I remember so the

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Speaker 2: version of the Post that you just described, when they

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Speaker 2: were really championing your work to support free expression, expression

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Speaker 2: of journalists, protecting and standing up for journalists. I remember that,

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Speaker 2: and looking back now, it feels like they were dining

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Speaker 2: out on an agenda that you were setting, and it

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Speaker 2: just the way that they I know it's a very

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Speaker 2: different post today, but does that feel kind of hollow? Now?

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Speaker 2: They were more than happy to align themselves with your work,

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Speaker 2: the work where you were like putting your safety on

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Speaker 2: the line in very real ways. And then also I

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Speaker 2: remember just so clearly that you would say, this is

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Speaker 2: just should be a warning to everybody. Right he was

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Speaker 2: a legal US resident right until like and we still

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Speaker 2: you know, they never found his body. Like the way

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Speaker 2: that you were signaling that as a call to all

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Speaker 2: journalists and the importance of the need to protect the

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Speaker 2: reexpression of journalists. I think the Post was more than

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Speaker 2: happy to make that make your work their mission. Does

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Speaker 2: that feel kind of hollow? Now?

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Speaker 1: Good question? I'm still processing. It's like, wait, who what

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Speaker 1: was real? What wasn't? I will say, though there were

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Speaker 1: and happened and still remain journalists at that paper who

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Speaker 1: stand Tanto's down on these values just as much as

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Speaker 1: I do. This is a question for leadership and for

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Speaker 1: our owner. Frankly and I you know, credit to he's

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Speaker 1: now past rest in peace. But Fred Hyatt, who was

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Speaker 1: the editorial page editor who hired me, who very much,

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Speaker 1: even though we disagreed politically on many things, and he

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Speaker 1: really modeled what it looked like to be a thoughtful

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Speaker 1: but courageous journalist and stand up for writers. He'd written

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Speaker 1: and reported from some of the most under democratic places

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Speaker 1: you can think of, and my sort of aligning human rights,

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Speaker 1: journalistic freedom very much was inspired by him. At the Post.

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Speaker 1: He was honest. I remember when I told him that

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Speaker 1: Jamal was killed, even though he had never met Jamal.

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Speaker 1: Fred Hye burst into tears. That was real. That is

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Speaker 1: who we had to me, That was who the Post was.

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Speaker 1: Fred Hie is gone now, not gone. He still influences me.

434
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: I still try to live up to his sort of

435
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: instructions an example, Yes, uh so clearly. I don't think

436
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: all white men are bad. Fred Hie is one of

437
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: the biggest influences of my career. I cite him so often.

438
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: He is his words that as an opinion journalist we

439
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: get to write, you know, we aren't limited to just

440
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: writing about the world as it is. We have an

441
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: obligation to write about the world as it should be.

442
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: I think about that almost every day, and so to me,

443
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: you know, I think of You know, the Post or

444
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: any institution is a gathering of people at the end

445
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: of the day, really, and so you know, obviously it's

446
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: a mixed picture for me, but I still hold on

447
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: to what I learned about how to be a fighter

448
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: for other writers because of the Post, because of people

449
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: like Fred Hyatt, even the former publisher Fred Ryan. They

450
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: went all out for Jamaal, for Jason Rezion, freedom journal.

451
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: I think that was real.

452
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: Yes, more, after a quick break, let's get right back

453
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: into it. Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos bought the Post in

454
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen. At first, the scuttle butt was that editorial

455
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: wouldn't change much, but Bezos did not hold to that

456
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: for very long. Let's talk about the current owner of

457
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: The Post, Jeffrey Bezos, living in DC. You know, he

458
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: owns my local newspaper, he owns where I get my groceries,

459
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: he owns where I get my healthcare. Kind of feels

460
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: like he's taking over more and more of my life.

461
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 2: But I remember when he bought the Post, he said

462
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 2: that he wanted the opinions section to champion personal liberty.

463
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 2: You know, he wanted columnists to be provocative to he

464
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 2: wanted you know, opinions and takes that people might not

465
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: always agree with to be published. What changed, I don't.

466
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: Know, because that was the marching orders you just describe,

467
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: were the marching orders I heard in person from him himself.

468
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: So well, I think everybody, it's been clear, even in

469
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: my firing, that there's been a change, a profound fun

470
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: and I think, like I said, I mean, there's still

471
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: going to be a time and place where so much

472
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: more of this will be addressed. In my case, so

473
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: hashtag skateen, hashtag watching the space. But I can say

474
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: this is a really chilling moment when we're thinking about

475
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: not only is client this climate Excuse me, I think

476
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: now for me, I mean I've always been interested in

477
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: sort of media ownership and media policy and media laws

478
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: and the fact that so much of our media is

479
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: owned by such a small, small, small group of people, right,

480
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: not only our newspapers but TD networks. I mean, look

481
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: at our social media platforms. We have a concentration of

482
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: power here that has always been a recipe for you know,

483
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: it has not always been a great sign for our

484
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: media ecosystem. Right, But that being said, I mean the

485
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: hope one has when being you know, employed by particularly

486
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: a very well resourced organization, is that you'll be able

487
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: to do amazing journalists and you'll have folks who will

488
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: have your back. Right. And so I suppose you know,

489
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: we're just again just in a bigger climate. It's bigger

490
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: than just me. I mean again, they are me, they

491
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: are Jimmy, they are Jimmy Kimmel. Right, I think this

492
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: is a bigger sort of climate in which is becoming

493
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: increasingly dangerous. Two, speak your mind. And if, like I'm

494
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: not exaggerating, if we want to hold on to democracy,

495
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: the very basis of the rest of our sort of

496
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: rights and human rights is the ability to even speak

497
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: and call out a problem, identify a problem so that

498
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: we can fix it, coalesce, to organize it, so that

499
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: we can open people's imaginations and minds to address it,

500
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: so that we can even have this so called debate

501
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,959
Speaker 1: they claim they want to have, right unless they're talking

502
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,720
Speaker 1: about something else other than quote unquote free speech and debate.

503
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: Is it really free speech and debate that they really want?

504
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: Because you need actual free speeching, You need journalists to

505
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: be able to do their jobs, to be able to

506
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: collect and report on and to provide framing and commentary

507
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: on the world for people, so that there can be

508
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: an honest debate. But if what you're actually looking for

509
00:34:53,400 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: is power and rhetorical domination, that's a different conversation. But

510
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's it flies in the sort

511
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: of general logic of all the folks who are saying

512
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: personal liberties, free markets, none of those can be achieved

513
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: without free speech. Mm hmm point one period.

514
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 2: I mean to that point. When I saw that you

515
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,439
Speaker 2: were being let go at the Post, I was sort

516
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: of waiting because I'm thinking, well, certainly, in two days time,

517
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to get a one on one sit down

518
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 2: on a on a mainstream news show or something. I

519
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: was sort of like waiting to see, like who's gonna

520
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: who's gonna get the first interview. So I was even

521
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: more shocked when I heard that you said, really, no

522
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 2: mainstream press reached out to you, that the first interviews

523
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 2: that you did were with podcasters and independent press. That's

524
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: actually why I got in touch, because I was like, certainly,

525
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 2: you're you are going to be booked full of interviews.

526
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 2: You said I saw in an interview with I think

527
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 2: Jim Acosta, you said that this was a nine at

528
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 2: the times for mainstream media that nobody was reaching out

529
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: to you to talk about this. Nobody wanted to really

530
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 2: talk about this story from mainstream press. What do you

531
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 2: think that says about about where mainstream media is at

532
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: right now?

533
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'll clarify, so there will be there were

534
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: people who who definitely like reached out. I got media,

535
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: like the mainstream media increase, but as far as sort

536
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: of the primetime TV, major network like anchor one on

537
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: ones to be able to really unpack this, not as

538
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: sort of two minute soundbites, I think. I mean, we

539
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: were the ones trying to pitch, like, hey can we

540
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: take like no major takers for the TV the TV anchors.

541
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: So the first ones who who that I actually sat

542
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: down with after two or three days of trying was

543
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: Don Lemon in a cafe and eating scrambled eggs, and

544
00:36:58,840 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: he was in genies.

545
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: I saw the little the little, the little clip you

546
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 2: put out the short here's a little taste of Karen

547
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 2: talking to Don Lemon over scrambled eggs at a diner.

548
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: The fact that.

549
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 5: You're the first one to sit down with me and

550
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 5: we're just sitting in a cafe is like a visualization

551
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 5: of the path, at least for me, that I've gone

552
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 5: being pushed in front of the world for free speech

553
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 5: and protection of journalists and freedom and expression. When my

554
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 5: writer was killed, I got the star mainstream media treatment.

555
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 5: And it's hitting me that whatever new journey this is

556
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 5: gonna be for me in terms of defending the right

557
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 5: to express yourself that you and I are sitting here

558
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 5: eating scrambled eggs. There are a few who reached out,

559
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 5: but they wanted the sort of you know ensemble, and

560
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 5: I get that that was their you know thing, But

561
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:48,919
Speaker 5: I was like.

562
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: No, this is gonna this is gonna be big. And

563
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: this is all before Jimmy Kimmel became an issue. So yeah,

564
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: Jim Acosta was one of the first to reach out

565
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 1: of stackers actually, and it just it's compared to how

566
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: I was sort of pursued by the major TV networks

567
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: again this is TV when Jamal Kascucci was killed. Compared

568
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: to like, wow, trying to almost like like people to

569
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: have to have me on Aaron especially you know, being

570
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: the last as the last full time black opinion writer

571
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: left at the post in Washington, d C.

572
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 2: Which, for folks who don't know, so I've lived in

573
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: DC my whole life. That is crazy. You know, the

574
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: post is is global, but it's also my local hometown paper.

575
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 2: It is the paper that has been on my front

576
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: stoop of my apartment every day for the last I

577
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: don't know ten years. DC used to be called Chocolate City.

578
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 2: It's like it's no longer a majority black city, but

579
00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 2: it's a heavily black city. Especially against the back of

580
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: a of an increasing hostile takeover of DC which we

581
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 2: are all witnessing, to have no black opinion columnists left

582
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 2: is crazy. There is no other way to put it.

583
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 2: Like it boggles my mind, It truly is. It just

584
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 2: doesn't make any sense.

585
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 1: We're We're in the upside down. Yeah, exactly. So amongst

586
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 1: that backdrop are a lot of these folks, no knowing,

587
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily hold it against them, but it was

588
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: just telling that maybe for this story, which again this

589
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 1: is against the backdrop of people being docksed po were

590
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: their comments on Charlie Kirk again Matthew Dowd being fired

591
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: by MSNBC for very tame also tame comments on Charlie Kirk.

592
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: The threats coming from to Charlie Kirk's not even his fans,

593
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: but from the administration over this. I'm not I'm not

594
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: even It's just that has been is the climate. This

595
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: is being used to purge, to fire, to punish, you

596
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: know who they deemed to be their quote unquote you know, enemies. Yeah,

597
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: so I'm not the only one. I just happened to

598
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: be again before Jimmy kim Ah happened to be a

599
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: pretty high profile price dear they got. But yeah, it

600
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: was just also telling that I don't know, it felt

601
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: it's been feeling liberating to be honest, be able to

602
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: speak more freely with independent media people who are building

603
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: their own audiences and platforms. And to me, I'm like, wow,

604
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: is this really the sign of the times, particularly that

605
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 1: I'm sitting down with Don Lemon and who has once

606
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 1: had his own primetime show that was also canceled.

607
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: I didn't and Joe I was like, Don was pushed

608
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 2: out of CNN because of the in twenty eighteen, because

609
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 2: of shit that went down with the Trump administration. Like

610
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: you have a little club.

611
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: It seems like we've got a little rebel alliance building

612
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 1: right now being being forced out, some of us more

613
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 1: dramatically than others. I think mine is pretty dramatic. But

614
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: they have been the ones to embrace me, like wholehearted

615
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: me and like not just have me on, but just

616
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: to say, like Karen, it's gonna be okay, it's gonna

617
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: be all right, like and I've been really, really, just

618
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: as a human grateful for that because I don't know,

619
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: as I told Don Lemon, and I'll say here like

620
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 1: especially not just what happened to me, but in Jimmy

621
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,839
Speaker 1: Kimmel's case, the FCC getting involved again. For me, as

622
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: someone who's studied media policy not just in the US

623
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: but around the world, and studied tactics being used to

624
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: science the media, this is this is code yellowish yellowish

625
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 1: red like orange like this is this is bad.

626
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 2: This is bad.

627
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: I for for sort of the corporate corporate media. This week,

628
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: you know, you'll see me around a bit more, you know,

629
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: doing doing the rounds. But yeah, last week, that was

630
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 1: that was that was chilling. I'll say that.

631
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: More after a quick break. Let's get right back into it.

632
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 2: I'm curious what you think about this. I actually don't

633
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 2: even think it's about Charlie Kirk. I think that's a

634
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 2: convenient excuse and convenient timing for the post to chip

635
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 2: away at the last vestiges of what the Post used

636
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 2: to be before Bezos took over, to push out voices

637
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 2: that the administration doesn't like. I also think it's you've

638
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 2: you've alluded to this, but just so folks really know,

639
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: we've spent so long talking about cancel culture, and when

640
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 2: what we're really talking about is like, oh, a private

641
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: company parted ways with somebody that they had worked with

642
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 2: them or put or like took them off of their

643
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 2: social media platform. This is the administration using the power

644
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: of the FCC, you know, TEP TEP to set the

645
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 2: agenda of hiring and firing based on what is going

646
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 2: to be friendly to the administration. It just I just

647
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 2: if I can't help but feel all the conversations that

648
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 2: we had about free speed, where we all had to

649
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 2: entertain that for so long, when it actually is an

650
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 2: administration using their power in this way, I just don't

651
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 2: feel like we're having the conversation that really aligns with

652
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 2: the with the alarm that you have just said.

653
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: We're not having conversations that masts reality.

654
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 2: You mean, correct, Yes, that's a perfect way to put

655
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 2: it there, you go.

656
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: That's why I was used to be an opinions columnist

657
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: still am We'll just do it in other ways. Gosh,

658
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: m let's just say things are bad and they can't

659
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: get worse. I have said for a long time, both

660
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: internally and externally, that this is the time for for

661
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: people to really organize dand together. Shout out to the

662
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 1: Washington Post Union. I know basically as we speak, they're

663
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: raging war for me inside. Right, So and again, when

664
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: I think of the Post, it's not just about Post leadership,

665
00:44:52,000 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: like I know my colleagues are. They've praised, they've condemned

666
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: my firing, the issue a statement. You know, there are

667
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 1: processes that are are going on that.

668
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 5: You know.

669
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a longtime proud union member. This is why

670
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: unions are important. Right that being said, how can I

671
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: do this without being How can I be talk about

672
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: reality without being super cryptic? Look like shit is getting real,

673
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: and it's getting real, like real fast. I am deeply

674
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 1: worried about America, about this country. I am profoundly worried

675
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: for not just journalists, particularly black journalists. I do not

676
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 1: see it as a coincidence that bridget as you said,

677
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: and in DC in particular, as this administration is literally

678
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: trying to life forcibly recolonize this place military occupation, literal checkpoints,

679
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: where people are having to feel like they need to

680
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: carry around their papers, where the Supreme Court has basically

681
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: said that racial profiling is okay. I do not see

682
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 1: it as a coincidence that these folks have taken out

683
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 1: the entire line of black opinion journalists at the Washington Post.

684
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: Opinion journalists, for those who don't know, is different than

685
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: sort of quote unquote regular reporters who are just thought

686
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,919
Speaker 1: to stick to the facts and the who, what, when, where?

687
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: Why is of things and all that. Opinion journalists we

688
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: get to go beyond that. Still use facts, but go

689
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: beyond that to say this is what this means, and

690
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: this is why this matters, and this is how we

691
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: should prepare. We get to say this is right and

692
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 1: this is wrong. If I was still there at the Post,

693
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: I would be saying, what is happening to DC right now?

694
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: What is happening to journalists right now being taken out?

695
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: This is wrong, and this is scary, and this is

696
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: a historical warning. I teach this in my class for

697
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: race and Media that I'm already seeing the patterns that

698
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: I teach about that have led to unspeakable moments in history. Okay,

699
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: so I am saddened at the place that I've spent

700
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: eleven years of my life defending press, not only press freedom,

701
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 1: but trying to do my best to get America to

702
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: be I don't know in a better place that we

703
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 1: find ourselves here. We find ourselves in this place where

704
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how we get out of this, Okay,

705
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 1: but what I can say is the old ways won't work.

706
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 1: The old institutions have shown this who they are or

707
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: who they're choosing to be in this moment, and this

708
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: is where, you know, one uses all leavers. And like

709
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: I said, I there will be time and place for

710
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: me to use different levers of you know, accountability and

711
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: telling my side of the story with everything. But for now,

712
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: it's just it just it feels like a brink sort

713
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: of moment. And you know, the example of sort of

714
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 1: that I've been preaching for a long time, people power.

715
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: No one's coming to save us, y'all. It's not going

716
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: to be. It's not going to be the billionaires, it's

717
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 1: not going to be the politicians. It's not going to be.

718
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 1: Like I said in my last column, Barack Obama, who

719
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: by the way, came to my defense.

720
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 2: I saw I make your last column was sort of

721
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 2: a critique of the way people are talking about Obama

722
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 2: and who was like he was like, oh, what happened

723
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 2: to her is awful?

724
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: Right, So that was like the before time. So basically

725
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: the last political focus column that the Post allowed me

726
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 1: to do before they fired me was a critique of

727
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: Baraco None, I mean Obama. But again, I'm always interested

728
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: in social discourse. So I was watching the social discourse

729
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: and everybody's watching things go like real going pear shape,

730
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: real fast, going south, real fast. And I saw a

731
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 1: lot of commentaries saying, well, Barack Obama, where are you?

732
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 2: Barack?

733
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: Stop podcasting and stop shooting hoops and come and save us.

734
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: And I was just like, y'all need to chill out, honestly,

735
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,320
Speaker 1: on two levels. First of all, like, yeah, so Obama

736
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: is an amazing, articulate president, but like, nice speeches aren't

737
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 1: gonna save us too, he's out of power. Three, let's

738
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: look at his immigration records. Okay, so what exactly are

739
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: y'all asking for right now? When this man had the

740
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 1: moniker to porter in chief and appointed Tom Holman not

741
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: only importanted but gave him in presidential medal. So anyway,

742
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: all that I laid out in my piece and you know, facts, data,

743
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: but that was my opinion. The Obama folks reached out

744
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,280
Speaker 1: and they were like, hah, we liked your idle emotional

745
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 1: support president. That was funny. But here's what we didn't

746
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,720
Speaker 1: like this, like this, this, And I was like, okay,

747
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,879
Speaker 1: I disagree. I still think there's a like I think

748
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: these I think entire families being locked up is objectively terrible.

749
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: I think under your administration, children having to represent themselves

750
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 1: in court is objectively terrible and set our country up

751
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: for seeing what we see today. What did they say?

752
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: We didn't wear masks though I'm like, okay, so it

753
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 1: looked better, but you're like okay. And that was the

754
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 1: extent of the That was a debate, in my opinion,

755
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: and we went on about our lives. No one was

756
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: calling for me to be locked up, no one was

757
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: calling for the post to be fined, to be taken

758
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: off of air. And now a couple months later, Obama,

759
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: the president that I criticized very publicly coming to my defense.

760
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 2: Obama not coming to say of US institute, US aren't

761
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: coming to save us billionaires aren't coming to save us.

762
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:04,720
Speaker 2: And one of the last questions I wanted to ask

763
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 2: you is that you know, I have been an admirer

764
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 2: of yours for a long time. I followed your career

765
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 2: as somebody who is in media. I look at you

766
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 2: and I think like, if my career and my background

767
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,760
Speaker 2: looked like yours, my parents would have been so happy.

768
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 2: You know, Ivy League education, working at Columbia, winning awards

769
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 2: after award after award, working for the Post, and you

770
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 2: know you essentially how I would put it in my community,

771
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: it is like you did everything right right, Like all

772
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 2: the things that you're supposed to do to get accolades,

773
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 2: to get respect, to be taken seriously, you did. And

774
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 2: in the end, we're here. And so I guess I feel,

775
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 2: you know, institutions and connections to institutions aren't going to

776
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 2: save us because they will always protect themselves in power.

777
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 2: And I think what happened to you just really shows that.

778
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 2: Are you Are you feeling that way at all?

779
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 4: Yeah?

780
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,240
Speaker 1: I definitely went through my moments where I was just like, Wow,

781
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 1: I did everything right, and I went to the fancy schools.

782
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: I went to Northwestern, I went to Columbia. I went

783
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 1: to the best of the best schools. I gave up.

784
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 1: I worked for free to have radio internships just so

785
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 1: I could break into the business. Like and also, like

786
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: I said, putting my safety on the line to advocate

787
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: for Jamal, winning awards for that, all that to come

788
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 1: to being fired by an email and being accused of

789
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: that I am a risk to the Washington Posts. After

790
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: putting my life on the risk for the Washington Post.

791
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 1: I mean what I would say to that is like,

792
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: you cannot be defined and find your worst and really

793
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: anything external right, And I've come to peace with that.

794
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: I do not regret living a life that's been by

795
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 1: my values, been my rules. I I sort of have

796
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: grown up. I started at the Post when I was

797
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 1: in my mid ish twenties late twenties or so, so

798
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: I was quite young, and I was quite young having

799
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: the responsibilities that I did, but I did them well.

800
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: I was a badass. I still am and no one's

801
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: going to take that away from me. Like the work,

802
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:32,280
Speaker 1: the all of it speaks for themselves for themselves. Awards

803
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: are not trudos or not. So I suppose this is

804
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: this is a lesson for everyone, but particularly you know, women, generals, color,

805
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 1: and people talk about imposter syndrome and all that stuff.

806
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: Find know what your values are and live those out.

807
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: That's that's the real reward. That's the real kind of

808
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: like I can honestly say, like this is this is

809
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 1: my path, that this is ha been, you know, the

810
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: start to something maybe even more beautiful in which I'm

811
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 1: actually more free to to really be myself. Actually, and

812
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: you know, like I said, I I had the time

813
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: of my life. I'm at the post. But hey, maybe

814
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: the best is yet to come. But again, this is

815
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 1: this is not the end. This isn't gonna stop me.

816
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 1: This is only just gonna make me like hotter and

817
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 1: more badass. What can I say? I'll be all right,

818
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 1: But you know, America, like the empire is collapsing, but

819
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 1: I'm still like, like my look glass is still popping

820
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: in my hair. So you know, I'm still gonna write,

821
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:54,399
Speaker 1: and no one's gonna I've always said that as long

822
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: as I have a pen and paper, I'm still gonna write.

823
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: Like so if anything I don't have, I have a

824
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: shadow over my head anymore. There's still much to come

825
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 1: on this case, but I am looking forward to what

826
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 1: comes next.

827
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 2: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

828
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 2: just want to say hi. You can reach us at

829
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 2: Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

830
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 2: for today's episode at TENG Goody dot com. There Are

831
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 2: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod.

832
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 2: It's a production of iHeartRadio, an unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland

833
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 2: as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and

834
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,959
Speaker 2: sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

835
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 2: Bridget Tod. If you want to help us grow, rate

836
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 2: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

837
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 2: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

838
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 2: get your podcasts.