Speaker 1: What could it could happen? Here a podcast about bad
Speaker 1: things happening and how they can continue to happen if
Speaker 1: you don't stop them. I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and
Speaker 1: today we're doing part two of the interview with genocide
Speaker 1: expert Arness Acustra, focusing on the absolutely horrifying things that
Speaker 1: have been happening in Bosnia recently. Is even if you
Speaker 1: hope you enjoy, can you can you give an explanation
Speaker 1: of what's happened in the last couple of weeks because
Speaker 1: it's terrifying and I don't think enough people are talking
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, I mean, yeah, So that's where are
Speaker 1: we now? Uh, you know, I'm just going to talk
Speaker 1: briefly about the date and agreement because I think, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: the audience speeds to understand what the dating agreement is,
Speaker 1: and I was going to talk about it earlier, but
Speaker 1: I went off on the tangent, So my apologies. UM,
Speaker 1: so obviously you know where the war is happening, The
Speaker 1: genocide is happening, um Stravens. The worst of the genocide happens,
Speaker 1: you know, eight thousand people are killed in just a
Speaker 1: matter of a few weeks, few days. Really, Um, the
Speaker 1: international community does not act at that time. Um, towards
Speaker 1: the end of the year, another attack happens, since Saraabo
Speaker 1: and Marcalis civilians are once again targeted waiting for bread fruit.
Speaker 1: I think it was humanitarian aid at the market, and
Speaker 1: that that's kind of when the international community starts to
Speaker 1: open their eyes a bit and negotiations start and not
Speaker 1: to borry with the details of nogeotiation process was absolutely
Speaker 1: ridiculous and every single time to discussed it, it was
Speaker 1: about splitting Bosia down ethnic lines, and that's ultimately what
Speaker 1: happened with the Dating Agreement. Yes, peace quote unquote peace
Speaker 1: was achieved, but the Data Agreement mandated so that there
Speaker 1: would be a three member presidency. So instead of having
Speaker 1: one president, we would have a three member presidency. It's
Speaker 1: a rotating presidency. There would be a Croat representative, a
Speaker 1: Bosnia representative, and a Server representative. That also means that
Speaker 1: there's no representatives for anyone who's another, whether it's the
Speaker 1: identified Yugoslav, Roma, Jewish, Bosnian but not Boshnak like they
Speaker 1: you know, it's just there, there's no space for the
Speaker 1: other in this constitution. With the State in Peace agreement,
Speaker 1: but that's for another day. Um. They also split the
Speaker 1: country down by ethnic lines. So all of those genocides
Speaker 1: and ethnic cleansing that the Serbs had just been committing
Speaker 1: all over eastern Bosnia up in the north, um, you know,
Speaker 1: basically the international community said, good job, here's your own
Speaker 1: territory that you ethnically cleanse. UM. So they split the
Speaker 1: country down, you know, these ethnic lins and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: the war stops. And then now we have to sort
Speaker 1: of contend with this you know, peace agreement with the
Speaker 1: new constitution. We we get this um called the OHR
Speaker 1: Office of the High Representative. The High Representative is basically
Speaker 1: a person who holds the highest power in the country.
Speaker 1: They're not a Bosnian. They're actually kind of um, they're
Speaker 1: put in place there by the international community. So the
Speaker 1: o HR kind of you know, comes and breaks us
Speaker 1: up when we're squabbling over issues. And this has been
Speaker 1: anything from things like the flag, like the new flag
Speaker 1: of Bosnia, the flag of Bosnia that was the flag
Speaker 1: of Bosnia had to sort of be a place because
Speaker 1: the OHR deems that it would be you know offensive
Speaker 1: to the Serbs or the Croats. Um. And the same
Speaker 1: thing with like the national anthem, so hold a lot
Speaker 1: of power. Now just recently we switched a hitch our representatives,
Speaker 1: so we have a new high representative. Before it was
Speaker 1: Valentinianscope and his final kind of part of his you know,
Speaker 1: time as the High Representative was to enact a law
Speaker 1: against genocide denialism, which the Bosnians have really been campaigning
Speaker 1: for for years because you know, um, I think in
Speaker 1: your birthplace, in the place where the worst crime ever
Speaker 1: could you know happen to you, happen to you, where
Speaker 1: you know, fifty women were raped, a hundred thousand people
Speaker 1: were killed, Um, six hundred plus mass graves were you know,
Speaker 1: dug up to hide the crimes and the massacres. People
Speaker 1: want to be able to you know, know the truth
Speaker 1: and and and and be feel safe with the truth.
Speaker 1: So the genocide denial it is, the law was good.
Speaker 1: But this is kind of when things started to you know,
Speaker 1: shift a bit, because I think Dotta came out Melana Dote,
Speaker 1: who is currently the Serb member of the Presidency who
Speaker 1: controls the Bublical Subsca, which is the entity where that's
Speaker 1: considered the Serb entity, but Bosniacs also lived there as well. Um,
Speaker 1: he came out and he said, well, if they passed
Speaker 1: the genocide denialism law, we're going to succeed within eight days.
Speaker 1: And obviously that didn't happen months ago. And here's here's
Speaker 1: the thing, Um, Milanid's Doteck has been threatening succession for
Speaker 1: years now. This is not anything new. What is new
Speaker 1: is the fact that this time he seems to talk
Speaker 1: about not just talk and threaten about succeeding, but actually
Speaker 1: has started to kind of drop up the papers and
Speaker 1: not a not to legally succeed, which he's not allowed
Speaker 1: due to the date and agreement. Um, but he is.
Speaker 1: He has run up the papers to start pulling out
Speaker 1: of all the national level. So you know, Bosnia is
Speaker 1: the country Republican subscribes and entity. The federation is an entity,
Speaker 1: but both of them are accountable to the national sort
Speaker 1: of state level institutions. He's basically at this point, you know,
Speaker 1: being saying, I'm gonna republica subscribe deserve We're leaving, like
Speaker 1: we're we're gonna form our own army. Yeah, we're gonna
Speaker 1: pull out all all the Bosnian state institutions. Um, we're
Speaker 1: gonna have serve only, you know, serve only courts serve only.
Speaker 1: Lawyers serve only. Justices serve only I don't know, passport, whatever,
Speaker 1: control serve basically anything that was at a national level,
Speaker 1: whether that's like a healthcare institution or like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: procurement for supplies for the office. They're gonna have it
Speaker 1: as like serve only. Obviously, I think the danger is
Speaker 1: right there. So only where have we heard that before?
Speaker 1: We heard that nineties and the biggest sort of red
Speaker 1: flag has really been this thing about them forming that
Speaker 1: a publican Scott Army, and they're not even talking about
Speaker 1: forming a new army. They he specifically stated the words
Speaker 1: reforming that republic of Scott Army. Now, the Republican of
Speaker 1: Scott Army, you know, was led by Kara In. These
Speaker 1: are the same people that put girls as young as
Speaker 1: ten and twelve years old into rape camps, that killed
Speaker 1: babies as old as you know a few months, that
Speaker 1: killed um, you know, elderly women as old as a
Speaker 1: hundred years old. You know, these these were the guys
Speaker 1: that were going village to village, city to city, killing, torturing,
Speaker 1: bombing the hell out of sorry about These were the
Speaker 1: guys that you know, would throw like three thousand to
Speaker 1: four thousand mortar shells on Sorrymo and snip it. I
Speaker 1: don't even know how many times, like tens of thousand
Speaker 1: times per day. It's just these are the bad guys. Basically.
Speaker 1: Um So, I think there's an alarm right now going
Speaker 1: in Bosia, and it is the reason why so many
Speaker 1: of us are quite worried, quite frightened, because on one hand,
Speaker 1: he has threatened, he has made you know, Donic has
Speaker 1: made plenty of for us before. But on the other hand,
Speaker 1: in prior times, the international community has somewhat gotten involved.
Speaker 1: You know, the US has sanctioned him, the UK has
Speaker 1: scolded him, the EU has said, like, you gotta chill
Speaker 1: out otherwise you know, Sorbiet doesn't get into the EU.
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's always been some sort of I
Speaker 1: don't know influence there, the oh Ars influence as well.
Speaker 1: But in recent years, the international community has not stood
Speaker 1: by its responsibility to the date agreement. I mean, here's
Speaker 1: the thing. They implemented this agreement. They made it so
Speaker 1: that we the Bosnians, have to abide by it, but
Speaker 1: they also have a responsibility to ensure that it is
Speaker 1: actually being upheld and that they're doing their jobs in
Speaker 1: importance with the international like with the Date and Agreement,
Speaker 1: so you know, the date and Agreement was very kind
Speaker 1: of specific that it was one a temporary solution and
Speaker 1: to the international community was to work on finding a
Speaker 1: more permanent solution that will bring about you know, actual
Speaker 1: sort of reconciliation and justice and all of these things.
Speaker 1: But they didn't. They you know, they've left sort of
Speaker 1: bossing it to kind of live up on its own,
Speaker 1: um and and now they're not really doing much. I mean,
Speaker 1: the EU is the U s they're doing their typical
Speaker 1: thing of strongly worded open letters UM and Dottic seems
Speaker 1: less afraid than ever before. He seems very brash. I mean,
Speaker 1: he is a fool and a half and an ultra nationalists,
Speaker 1: but right now I feel like he has so much confidence,
Speaker 1: and I think he also knows that, like the US
Speaker 1: and the EU have so many bigger problems to worry
Speaker 1: about rather than Bosnia, and so we're just out a
Speaker 1: priority so he can play around with it. And then
Speaker 1: we're also you know, seeing like the Secretary of State
Speaker 1: Matthew Palmer hanging out with him. The day after this,
Speaker 1: man openly stated on national television that he is reforming
Speaker 1: and they're being very cozy and very friendly and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. And here's the thing. I've never been really
Speaker 1: a big believer on the international community, because, come on,
Speaker 1: like I have him, the experience speaks for itself. I've
Speaker 1: already lived lived their help and I'm like, no, thanks,
Speaker 1: you stay away. But I don't live in that world.
Speaker 1: I live in a world where, you know, I'm from
Speaker 1: a small country that is unfortunately very dependent on outsiders
Speaker 1: and on the international community. So while I would love
Speaker 1: to say, well, fuck the EU, fuck the US, we
Speaker 1: don't need them, the reality is that we do need them.
Speaker 1: We do need them to do their jobs, and because
Speaker 1: if they don't, I am really worried that the situation
Speaker 1: is going to continue to escalate further and further. And
Speaker 1: this appeasement of Dotty, especially in the last several years,
Speaker 1: has gone on so much that at this point I
Speaker 1: think you have to like start to wonder, like do
Speaker 1: these does the international community, you know, even want peace
Speaker 1: and stability in Bosnia or did they benefit from our
Speaker 1: constant instability and what is their long term plan? But
Speaker 1: that's kind of where we're at right now. I think
Speaker 1: there there's you know, there's the people in in Bosleian
Speaker 1: politics and activist circles right now who are calling on
Speaker 1: US leadership or calling on EU leadership, and there's a
Speaker 1: lot of oh, no, the EU sucks, the US will
Speaker 1: help us, the U s sucks, the EU will help us.
Speaker 1: Turkey that's gonna help us. No, Turkey sucks. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of like disagreement. Um. I think the reality is that,
Speaker 1: oh my god, does it suck that we are in
Speaker 1: this position where we have to rely on external sources
Speaker 1: because once again we are feeling alone. Once again, we're
Speaker 1: sort of being back into a corner, and once again
Speaker 1: we're being threatened with a prospect of, you know, a
Speaker 1: new war. And I think the reality is the minute,
Speaker 1: the minute that he gives that green light for that
Speaker 1: the Republican Army to be formed, there will be violence.
Speaker 1: We've seen what happened before. We cannot afford to even
Speaker 1: have one act of violence. We cannot afford to have
Speaker 1: even one person injured, let alone die. Because these people
Speaker 1: in Bosnia, on all sides, have suffered so unbelievably much.
Speaker 1: They are exhausted, they are still bearing their leved once
Speaker 1: twenty six years later, they still haven't you know, found
Speaker 1: that peace. They're worried and scared for their future, and
Speaker 1: they deserves so much more, they really really do. So
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I'm I'm hoping and praying that um.
Speaker 1: You know, we obviously continue talking about this issue, and
Speaker 1: we try to pressure those people in power to you know,
Speaker 1: calm the situation down. But the reality is that this
Speaker 1: is going to be our future for as long as
Speaker 1: they never exists, and until the Bosnian constitution is completely
Speaker 1: reformed and dating is completely either thrown out or reformed
Speaker 1: to actually allow for a you know code, actual multi
Speaker 1: ethnic United country that's not broken up across ethnic you
Speaker 1: know alignes, and it's not ethnically segregated, we're going to
Speaker 1: continue being in the situation. So yes, for right now,
Speaker 1: I think let's talk about this and let's kind of
Speaker 1: pressure those powerful people, but really a long term it's
Speaker 1: time to start thinking about ending the date and agreement,
Speaker 1: and it's time to start thinking about actually building that
Speaker 1: you know, multi ethnic, multi cultural, multi religious country that
Speaker 1: we fought for. You know, you're saying like, okay, like
Speaker 1: what what what is you know, what what is Europe
Speaker 1: actually wants out of this and you know, I mean
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty clear, Like okay, so you know
Speaker 1: it the date and accords are like okay, we're just
Speaker 1: gonna give all of the ether nationalists like their own fiefdom. Right,
Speaker 1: It's like okay, here, here's your award for the genocide.
Speaker 1: You get your like yeah, and I think you know,
Speaker 1: like that's that's that's that's that's a very classical you
Speaker 1: know that that that's what Europeans do, Right. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they come in the sport of the nationalists and it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, they don't want this, like they don't actually
Speaker 1: want like if a functioning multi ethnic, multiracial society because
Speaker 1: you know, oh oh the horror weight hold on, what
Speaker 1: if other people look at that and go, wait, why
Speaker 1: why do we have Like yeah, I think that I
Speaker 1: don't know. I think you see this both you know,
Speaker 1: back back and what they were originally doing in the nineties,
Speaker 1: and you know, they come in later and they're like, oh, hey,
Speaker 1: look we're heroes, we uh helped them do the genocide
Speaker 1: and then kind of sort of did something maybe later,
Speaker 1: and I think like, yeah, I don't know, just the
Speaker 1: possibility of that happening again the possibility of it's just
Speaker 1: being you know, this is like, oh, hey, we have Bosnia.
Speaker 1: This this is where we do press tours for like
Speaker 1: why the American Army is good and like fun anyone
Speaker 1: else who actually lives there. Yeah, I mean, like, come on,
Speaker 1: they're America. Like, let's be honest here, Like I'm not
Speaker 1: saying they're all powerful entity, but what I am saying
Speaker 1: is that if they really wanted to, the people who
Speaker 1: are in power would not be in power, right, Like,
Speaker 1: but these people, people like Dotty, people like Dragon Chovich,
Speaker 1: who is the Croatian at No nationalist leader who is also,
Speaker 1: by the way, directly involved in this mess. And and
Speaker 1: once again we're seeing that thing of the nineties of
Speaker 1: you know, Croatia and Serbia want to split Bosnia up
Speaker 1: and you know, break it for themselves. Basically, Um, that's
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's just now instead of Ryan Tujman
Speaker 1: and Looshevich, it's now Chovich and uh, you know Dotty.
Speaker 1: I talk about Dottic a lot more because I think
Speaker 1: he's a more immediate threat, but it's important that we
Speaker 1: don't forget that Bosnia is also facing the Croatian threat
Speaker 1: as well. Um and you know. But but I think
Speaker 1: about it this way. I know for a fact that
Speaker 1: if these people did not benefit the system somehow, they
Speaker 1: would not actually be in power. But they do. They
Speaker 1: do benefit them and I think you know, you know,
Speaker 1: Madain Albright called mil Dot a breath of fresh air
Speaker 1: um in you know, the nineties when he came to
Speaker 1: power and then and now here we are, you know,
Speaker 1: um Dots threatening war and threatening succession and talking about
Speaker 1: serve only you know, spaces and serve only armies and
Speaker 1: it's just it's exhaust thing. But yeah, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: also funny. It is funny when you think about it,
Speaker 1: because the reality is that it doesn't it never had
Speaker 1: to be like this, and it doesn't have to feel
Speaker 1: like this in the future either. But unfortunately, it will
Speaker 1: continue to be like this because that's just you know,
Speaker 1: what the powerful want, like what those actually have some
Speaker 1: power want. And that's the thing that sucks because when
Speaker 1: you you know, I feel like I'm starting to sound conspirator,
Speaker 1: but I'm not. Um. You know, when you when you
Speaker 1: think about like Europe overall and how they looked at Bosnia,
Speaker 1: I think for the last you know, hundred years, um
Speaker 1: and their policy towards Bosnia. It's really difficult for me
Speaker 1: to kind of be filled with any sort of confidence
Speaker 1: about what their plans are, you know. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it's it's it's Europe in the United States, two countries
Speaker 1: that historically have never done anything bad, have never done
Speaker 1: any genocides and have never yeah, just absolutely annihilated countries. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just, you know, they're the good guys. So,
Speaker 1: like you said, you know, Bosnians, there are so much
Speaker 1: as like this press store for you know, these politicians
Speaker 1: to come and talk about why we're such a great
Speaker 1: example of the peace process when we're really we're not,
Speaker 1: you know, And the thing is so you know, they'll
Speaker 1: come on and they'll say, well, while Dayton wasn't perfect,
Speaker 1: it was the best solution at the time. And it's
Speaker 1: like it was, it was not, you know, but but
Speaker 1: they have convinced that themselves that this was like a
Speaker 1: win for intervention and win for the international community. Now,
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, I alongside everyone I know, is
Speaker 1: extremely happy that the war ended and that the genocide ended.
Speaker 1: Um And I think until you're in that position of
Speaker 1: growing up in the midst of you know, all these
Speaker 1: bombs and murders and tortures all around you, and you know,
Speaker 1: the only style do you ever hear are the sounds
Speaker 1: of bombs and mortars falling and sniper shooting at you.
Speaker 1: You won't really know how it feels when that finally
Speaker 1: stops and when you have some peace, and how difficult
Speaker 1: um it can be to think about obviously any future
Speaker 1: sort of prospects of war UM. And I think that's
Speaker 1: that also is a is a contributing factor to the
Speaker 1: overall instability of Closingia because for twenty six years now,
Speaker 1: our policy as a people but as a country as well,
Speaker 1: has been as long as there's no shooting, which is
Speaker 1: not a sound policy because you know, settling for the
Speaker 1: bare minimum is not helping any of us. Our youths
Speaker 1: are leaving in observed absurd amounts to Germany, to Austria,
Speaker 1: to the United States, people are struggling for for jobs,
Speaker 1: people are struggling to bind food. You know, all of
Speaker 1: these things um, on top of the threat of war
Speaker 1: and violence and conflicts. So it's just it's not a
Speaker 1: sound policy. And I'm just hoping, um, it will change
Speaker 1: eventually somehow. I mean, I'm going to keep doing my part,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, yelling and yelling at people in
Speaker 1: in there on Twitter and in person and pressuring them
Speaker 1: to do the right thing and to obviously talk about this.
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, I just feel like we have such
Speaker 1: a long, long, long, long road ahead of us. And um,
Speaker 1: you know, peace is a process. It's a process. So
Speaker 1: I think where just at the beginning of that process. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so much more to do, I think. I think that's
Speaker 1: a good place to end on the realization that Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, if if if there's no fundamental change in
Speaker 1: the structures and in the forces and in the politics
Speaker 1: that created a war, that created genocide, like it's going
Speaker 1: to happen again. Yeah, and so you you you have
Speaker 1: to actually change it. You can't just sort of put
Speaker 1: this band aid on it and put it in stasis
Speaker 1: and just leave all the structures intact. You have to
Speaker 1: now you you have to knock them over before you
Speaker 1: can build something else. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, nessa think, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for talking with me. Um, where can
Speaker 1: people find you? And what books do you want to read?
Speaker 1: Because as as as we've said over and over again
Speaker 1: on this podcast, do not get your information from podcast,
Speaker 1: actually read books to think you need what you need
Speaker 1: to do. UM, yeah, well if you obviously, I know
Speaker 1: our audience can't see yet. But here's my little one
Speaker 1: of my little selections of books on Bosnia. UM. Obviously,
Speaker 1: people can find me on Twitter, um, you know, type
Speaker 1: in my name A R N E s A. But
Speaker 1: my at is at our ore R R E s
Speaker 1: s A. Yeah. Twitter is probably the best place. But
Speaker 1: also I have a book out so if people want
Speaker 1: to read it. It is about the Bosnian genocide UM,
Speaker 1: and it is based on real life experiences of my
Speaker 1: family and friends. It's called Letters from Diaspora. It's more
Speaker 1: so the emotional UM side of things. But if you
Speaker 1: want to learn about the conflict from a leftist perspective,
Speaker 1: I always recommend UM. And I don't know where it's
Speaker 1: going out, but I always recommend UM Bosnia, Kosova and
Speaker 1: Yugoslavia by Mike Kardadigis UM. It's the Marxist perspective on
Speaker 1: the breakup of Yugoslavia. UM. Additionally, I have a pdf
Speaker 1: on my Twitter of tons of books. So if you
Speaker 1: want to learn more about Yugoslavia, about Islam and the Balkans,
Speaker 1: about the history of Bosnia, about the war Jetta side.
Speaker 1: Feel free to shoot me a d M. I have
Speaker 1: a handy little guide that I hand out constantly. Two people. Um,
Speaker 1: and there's also a list of books on like my
Speaker 1: website and stuff like that. Yeah, I think I can
Speaker 1: post it. We can put a link to it in
Speaker 1: the description. I've I've read some stuff there. It's very good.
Speaker 1: You should read it. Thanks. I pry myself on really
Speaker 1: good reading list depending on topic. Oh yeah, yeah, well Vanessa,
Speaker 1: thank you again. And yeah, this this has when it
Speaker 1: could happen here? Find us that it could happen here
Speaker 1: pod on Twitter, Instagram. The rest of the show is
Speaker 1: that we do are You can find it at the
Speaker 1: cool Zone on the same places and yeah, oh boy
Speaker 1: genocide bad hope there's no more work to stop them.
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