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Speaker 1: What could it could happen? Here a podcast about bad

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Speaker 1: things happening and how they can continue to happen if

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Speaker 1: you don't stop them. I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and

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Speaker 1: today we're doing part two of the interview with genocide

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Speaker 1: expert Arness Acustra, focusing on the absolutely horrifying things that

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Speaker 1: have been happening in Bosnia recently. Is even if you

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Speaker 1: hope you enjoy, can you can you give an explanation

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Speaker 1: of what's happened in the last couple of weeks because

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Speaker 1: it's terrifying and I don't think enough people are talking

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Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, I mean, yeah, So that's where are

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Speaker 1: we now? Uh, you know, I'm just going to talk

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Speaker 1: briefly about the date and agreement because I think, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the audience speeds to understand what the dating agreement is,

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Speaker 1: and I was going to talk about it earlier, but

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Speaker 1: I went off on the tangent, So my apologies. UM,

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Speaker 1: so obviously you know where the war is happening, The

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Speaker 1: genocide is happening, um Stravens. The worst of the genocide happens,

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Speaker 1: you know, eight thousand people are killed in just a

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Speaker 1: matter of a few weeks, few days. Really, Um, the

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Speaker 1: international community does not act at that time. Um, towards

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Speaker 1: the end of the year, another attack happens, since Saraabo

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Speaker 1: and Marcalis civilians are once again targeted waiting for bread fruit.

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Speaker 1: I think it was humanitarian aid at the market, and

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Speaker 1: that that's kind of when the international community starts to

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Speaker 1: open their eyes a bit and negotiations start and not

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Speaker 1: to borry with the details of nogeotiation process was absolutely

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Speaker 1: ridiculous and every single time to discussed it, it was

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Speaker 1: about splitting Bosia down ethnic lines, and that's ultimately what

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Speaker 1: happened with the Dating Agreement. Yes, peace quote unquote peace

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Speaker 1: was achieved, but the Data Agreement mandated so that there

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Speaker 1: would be a three member presidency. So instead of having

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Speaker 1: one president, we would have a three member presidency. It's

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Speaker 1: a rotating presidency. There would be a Croat representative, a

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Speaker 1: Bosnia representative, and a Server representative. That also means that

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Speaker 1: there's no representatives for anyone who's another, whether it's the

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Speaker 1: identified Yugoslav, Roma, Jewish, Bosnian but not Boshnak like they

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Speaker 1: you know, it's just there, there's no space for the

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Speaker 1: other in this constitution. With the State in Peace agreement,

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Speaker 1: but that's for another day. Um. They also split the

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Speaker 1: country down by ethnic lines. So all of those genocides

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Speaker 1: and ethnic cleansing that the Serbs had just been committing

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Speaker 1: all over eastern Bosnia up in the north, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: basically the international community said, good job, here's your own

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Speaker 1: territory that you ethnically cleanse. UM. So they split the

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Speaker 1: country down, you know, these ethnic lins and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: the war stops. And then now we have to sort

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Speaker 1: of contend with this you know, peace agreement with the

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Speaker 1: new constitution. We we get this um called the OHR

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Speaker 1: Office of the High Representative. The High Representative is basically

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Speaker 1: a person who holds the highest power in the country.

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Speaker 1: They're not a Bosnian. They're actually kind of um, they're

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Speaker 1: put in place there by the international community. So the

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Speaker 1: o HR kind of you know, comes and breaks us

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Speaker 1: up when we're squabbling over issues. And this has been

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Speaker 1: anything from things like the flag, like the new flag

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Speaker 1: of Bosnia, the flag of Bosnia that was the flag

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Speaker 1: of Bosnia had to sort of be a place because

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Speaker 1: the OHR deems that it would be you know offensive

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Speaker 1: to the Serbs or the Croats. Um. And the same

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Speaker 1: thing with like the national anthem, so hold a lot

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Speaker 1: of power. Now just recently we switched a hitch our representatives,

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Speaker 1: so we have a new high representative. Before it was

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Speaker 1: Valentinianscope and his final kind of part of his you know,

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Speaker 1: time as the High Representative was to enact a law

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Speaker 1: against genocide denialism, which the Bosnians have really been campaigning

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Speaker 1: for for years because you know, um, I think in

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Speaker 1: your birthplace, in the place where the worst crime ever

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Speaker 1: could you know happen to you, happen to you, where

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Speaker 1: you know, fifty women were raped, a hundred thousand people

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Speaker 1: were killed, Um, six hundred plus mass graves were you know,

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Speaker 1: dug up to hide the crimes and the massacres. People

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Speaker 1: want to be able to you know, know the truth

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Speaker 1: and and and and be feel safe with the truth.

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Speaker 1: So the genocide denial it is, the law was good.

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Speaker 1: But this is kind of when things started to you know,

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Speaker 1: shift a bit, because I think Dotta came out Melana Dote,

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Speaker 1: who is currently the Serb member of the Presidency who

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Speaker 1: controls the Bublical Subsca, which is the entity where that's

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Speaker 1: considered the Serb entity, but Bosniacs also lived there as well. Um,

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Speaker 1: he came out and he said, well, if they passed

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Speaker 1: the genocide denialism law, we're going to succeed within eight days.

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Speaker 1: And obviously that didn't happen months ago. And here's here's

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Speaker 1: the thing, Um, Milanid's Doteck has been threatening succession for

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Speaker 1: years now. This is not anything new. What is new

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Speaker 1: is the fact that this time he seems to talk

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Speaker 1: about not just talk and threaten about succeeding, but actually

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Speaker 1: has started to kind of drop up the papers and

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Speaker 1: not a not to legally succeed, which he's not allowed

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Speaker 1: due to the date and agreement. Um, but he is.

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Speaker 1: He has run up the papers to start pulling out

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Speaker 1: of all the national level. So you know, Bosnia is

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Speaker 1: the country Republican subscribes and entity. The federation is an entity,

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Speaker 1: but both of them are accountable to the national sort

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Speaker 1: of state level institutions. He's basically at this point, you know,

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Speaker 1: being saying, I'm gonna republica subscribe deserve We're leaving, like

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Speaker 1: we're we're gonna form our own army. Yeah, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: pull out all all the Bosnian state institutions. Um, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna have serve only, you know, serve only courts serve only.

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Speaker 1: Lawyers serve only. Justices serve only I don't know, passport, whatever,

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Speaker 1: control serve basically anything that was at a national level,

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Speaker 1: whether that's like a healthcare institution or like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: procurement for supplies for the office. They're gonna have it

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Speaker 1: as like serve only. Obviously, I think the danger is

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Speaker 1: right there. So only where have we heard that before?

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Speaker 1: We heard that nineties and the biggest sort of red

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Speaker 1: flag has really been this thing about them forming that

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Speaker 1: a publican Scott Army, and they're not even talking about

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Speaker 1: forming a new army. They he specifically stated the words

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Speaker 1: reforming that republic of Scott Army. Now, the Republican of

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Speaker 1: Scott Army, you know, was led by Kara In. These

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Speaker 1: are the same people that put girls as young as

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Speaker 1: ten and twelve years old into rape camps, that killed

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Speaker 1: babies as old as you know a few months, that

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Speaker 1: killed um, you know, elderly women as old as a

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Speaker 1: hundred years old. You know, these these were the guys

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Speaker 1: that were going village to village, city to city, killing, torturing,

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Speaker 1: bombing the hell out of sorry about These were the

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Speaker 1: guys that you know, would throw like three thousand to

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Speaker 1: four thousand mortar shells on Sorrymo and snip it. I

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Speaker 1: don't even know how many times, like tens of thousand

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Speaker 1: times per day. It's just these are the bad guys. Basically.

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Speaker 1: Um So, I think there's an alarm right now going

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Speaker 1: in Bosia, and it is the reason why so many

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Speaker 1: of us are quite worried, quite frightened, because on one hand,

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Speaker 1: he has threatened, he has made you know, Donic has

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Speaker 1: made plenty of for us before. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: in prior times, the international community has somewhat gotten involved.

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Speaker 1: You know, the US has sanctioned him, the UK has

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Speaker 1: scolded him, the EU has said, like, you gotta chill

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Speaker 1: out otherwise you know, Sorbiet doesn't get into the EU.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's there's always been some sort of I

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Speaker 1: don't know influence there, the oh Ars influence as well.

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Speaker 1: But in recent years, the international community has not stood

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Speaker 1: by its responsibility to the date agreement. I mean, here's

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Speaker 1: the thing. They implemented this agreement. They made it so

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Speaker 1: that we the Bosnians, have to abide by it, but

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Speaker 1: they also have a responsibility to ensure that it is

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Speaker 1: actually being upheld and that they're doing their jobs in

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Speaker 1: importance with the international like with the Date and Agreement,

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Speaker 1: so you know, the date and Agreement was very kind

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Speaker 1: of specific that it was one a temporary solution and

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Speaker 1: to the international community was to work on finding a

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Speaker 1: more permanent solution that will bring about you know, actual

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Speaker 1: sort of reconciliation and justice and all of these things.

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Speaker 1: But they didn't. They you know, they've left sort of

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Speaker 1: bossing it to kind of live up on its own,

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Speaker 1: um and and now they're not really doing much. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the EU is the U s they're doing their typical

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Speaker 1: thing of strongly worded open letters UM and Dottic seems

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Speaker 1: less afraid than ever before. He seems very brash. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he is a fool and a half and an ultra nationalists,

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Speaker 1: but right now I feel like he has so much confidence,

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Speaker 1: and I think he also knows that, like the US

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Speaker 1: and the EU have so many bigger problems to worry

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Speaker 1: about rather than Bosnia, and so we're just out a

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Speaker 1: priority so he can play around with it. And then

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Speaker 1: we're also you know, seeing like the Secretary of State

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Speaker 1: Matthew Palmer hanging out with him. The day after this,

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Speaker 1: man openly stated on national television that he is reforming

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Speaker 1: and they're being very cozy and very friendly and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. And here's the thing. I've never been really

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Speaker 1: a big believer on the international community, because, come on,

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Speaker 1: like I have him, the experience speaks for itself. I've

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Speaker 1: already lived lived their help and I'm like, no, thanks,

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Speaker 1: you stay away. But I don't live in that world.

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Speaker 1: I live in a world where, you know, I'm from

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Speaker 1: a small country that is unfortunately very dependent on outsiders

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Speaker 1: and on the international community. So while I would love

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Speaker 1: to say, well, fuck the EU, fuck the US, we

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Speaker 1: don't need them, the reality is that we do need them.

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Speaker 1: We do need them to do their jobs, and because

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Speaker 1: if they don't, I am really worried that the situation

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Speaker 1: is going to continue to escalate further and further. And

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Speaker 1: this appeasement of Dotty, especially in the last several years,

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Speaker 1: has gone on so much that at this point I

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Speaker 1: think you have to like start to wonder, like do

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Speaker 1: these does the international community, you know, even want peace

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Speaker 1: and stability in Bosnia or did they benefit from our

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Speaker 1: constant instability and what is their long term plan? But

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Speaker 1: that's kind of where we're at right now. I think

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Speaker 1: there there's you know, there's the people in in Bosleian

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Speaker 1: politics and activist circles right now who are calling on

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Speaker 1: US leadership or calling on EU leadership, and there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of oh, no, the EU sucks, the US will

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Speaker 1: help us, the U s sucks, the EU will help us.

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Speaker 1: Turkey that's gonna help us. No, Turkey sucks. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of like disagreement. Um. I think the reality is that,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, does it suck that we are in

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Speaker 1: this position where we have to rely on external sources

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Speaker 1: because once again we are feeling alone. Once again, we're

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Speaker 1: sort of being back into a corner, and once again

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Speaker 1: we're being threatened with a prospect of, you know, a

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Speaker 1: new war. And I think the reality is the minute,

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Speaker 1: the minute that he gives that green light for that

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Speaker 1: the Republican Army to be formed, there will be violence.

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Speaker 1: We've seen what happened before. We cannot afford to even

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Speaker 1: have one act of violence. We cannot afford to have

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Speaker 1: even one person injured, let alone die. Because these people

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Speaker 1: in Bosnia, on all sides, have suffered so unbelievably much.

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Speaker 1: They are exhausted, they are still bearing their leved once

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Speaker 1: twenty six years later, they still haven't you know, found

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Speaker 1: that peace. They're worried and scared for their future, and

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Speaker 1: they deserves so much more, they really really do. So

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, I'm I'm hoping and praying that um.

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Speaker 1: You know, we obviously continue talking about this issue, and

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Speaker 1: we try to pressure those people in power to you know,

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Speaker 1: calm the situation down. But the reality is that this

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Speaker 1: is going to be our future for as long as

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Speaker 1: they never exists, and until the Bosnian constitution is completely

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Speaker 1: reformed and dating is completely either thrown out or reformed

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Speaker 1: to actually allow for a you know code, actual multi

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Speaker 1: ethnic United country that's not broken up across ethnic you

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Speaker 1: know alignes, and it's not ethnically segregated, we're going to

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Speaker 1: continue being in the situation. So yes, for right now,

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Speaker 1: I think let's talk about this and let's kind of

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Speaker 1: pressure those powerful people, but really a long term it's

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Speaker 1: time to start thinking about ending the date and agreement,

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Speaker 1: and it's time to start thinking about actually building that

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Speaker 1: you know, multi ethnic, multi cultural, multi religious country that

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Speaker 1: we fought for. You know, you're saying like, okay, like

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Speaker 1: what what what is you know, what what is Europe

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Speaker 1: actually wants out of this and you know, I mean

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Speaker 1: I think it's pretty clear, Like okay, so you know

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Speaker 1: it the date and accords are like okay, we're just

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Speaker 1: gonna give all of the ether nationalists like their own fiefdom. Right,

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Speaker 1: It's like okay, here, here's your award for the genocide.

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Speaker 1: You get your like yeah, and I think you know,

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Speaker 1: like that's that's that's that's that's a very classical you

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Speaker 1: know that that that's what Europeans do, Right. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they come in the sport of the nationalists and it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, they don't want this, like they don't actually

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Speaker 1: want like if a functioning multi ethnic, multiracial society because

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Speaker 1: you know, oh oh the horror weight hold on, what

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Speaker 1: if other people look at that and go, wait, why

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Speaker 1: why do we have Like yeah, I think that I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I think you see this both you know,

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Speaker 1: back back and what they were originally doing in the nineties,

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Speaker 1: and you know, they come in later and they're like, oh, hey,

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Speaker 1: look we're heroes, we uh helped them do the genocide

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Speaker 1: and then kind of sort of did something maybe later,

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Speaker 1: and I think like, yeah, I don't know, just the

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Speaker 1: possibility of that happening again the possibility of it's just

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Speaker 1: being you know, this is like, oh, hey, we have Bosnia.

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Speaker 1: This this is where we do press tours for like

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Speaker 1: why the American Army is good and like fun anyone

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Speaker 1: else who actually lives there. Yeah, I mean, like, come on,

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Speaker 1: they're America. Like, let's be honest here, Like I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying they're all powerful entity, but what I am saying

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Speaker 1: is that if they really wanted to, the people who

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Speaker 1: are in power would not be in power, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: but these people, people like Dotty, people like Dragon Chovich,

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Speaker 1: who is the Croatian at No nationalist leader who is also,

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Speaker 1: by the way, directly involved in this mess. And and

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Speaker 1: once again we're seeing that thing of the nineties of

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Speaker 1: you know, Croatia and Serbia want to split Bosnia up

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Speaker 1: and you know, break it for themselves. Basically, Um, that's

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's just now instead of Ryan Tujman

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Speaker 1: and Looshevich, it's now Chovich and uh, you know Dotty.

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Speaker 1: I talk about Dottic a lot more because I think

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Speaker 1: he's a more immediate threat, but it's important that we

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Speaker 1: don't forget that Bosnia is also facing the Croatian threat

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Speaker 1: as well. Um and you know. But but I think

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Speaker 1: about it this way. I know for a fact that

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Speaker 1: if these people did not benefit the system somehow, they

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Speaker 1: would not actually be in power. But they do. They

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Speaker 1: do benefit them and I think you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: Madain Albright called mil Dot a breath of fresh air

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Speaker 1: um in you know, the nineties when he came to

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Speaker 1: power and then and now here we are, you know,

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Speaker 1: um Dots threatening war and threatening succession and talking about

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Speaker 1: serve only you know, spaces and serve only armies and

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Speaker 1: it's just it's exhaust thing. But yeah, it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: also funny. It is funny when you think about it,

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Speaker 1: because the reality is that it doesn't it never had

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Speaker 1: to be like this, and it doesn't have to feel

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Speaker 1: like this in the future either. But unfortunately, it will

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Speaker 1: continue to be like this because that's just you know,

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Speaker 1: what the powerful want, like what those actually have some

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Speaker 1: power want. And that's the thing that sucks because when

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Speaker 1: you you know, I feel like I'm starting to sound conspirator,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not. Um. You know, when you when you

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Speaker 1: think about like Europe overall and how they looked at Bosnia,

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Speaker 1: I think for the last you know, hundred years, um

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Speaker 1: and their policy towards Bosnia. It's really difficult for me

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Speaker 1: to kind of be filled with any sort of confidence

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Speaker 1: about what their plans are, you know. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's Europe in the United States, two countries

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Speaker 1: that historically have never done anything bad, have never done

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Speaker 1: any genocides and have never yeah, just absolutely annihilated countries. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just, you know, they're the good guys. So,

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Speaker 1: like you said, you know, Bosnians, there are so much

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Speaker 1: as like this press store for you know, these politicians

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Speaker 1: to come and talk about why we're such a great

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Speaker 1: example of the peace process when we're really we're not,

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Speaker 1: you know, And the thing is so you know, they'll

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Speaker 1: come on and they'll say, well, while Dayton wasn't perfect,

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Speaker 1: it was the best solution at the time. And it's

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Speaker 1: like it was, it was not, you know, but but

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Speaker 1: they have convinced that themselves that this was like a

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Speaker 1: win for intervention and win for the international community. Now,

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Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, I alongside everyone I know, is

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Speaker 1: extremely happy that the war ended and that the genocide ended.

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Speaker 1: Um And I think until you're in that position of

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Speaker 1: growing up in the midst of you know, all these

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Speaker 1: bombs and murders and tortures all around you, and you know,

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Speaker 1: the only style do you ever hear are the sounds

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Speaker 1: of bombs and mortars falling and sniper shooting at you.

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Speaker 1: You won't really know how it feels when that finally

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Speaker 1: stops and when you have some peace, and how difficult

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Speaker 1: um it can be to think about obviously any future

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Speaker 1: sort of prospects of war UM. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: that also is a is a contributing factor to the

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Speaker 1: overall instability of Closingia because for twenty six years now,

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Speaker 1: our policy as a people but as a country as well,

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Speaker 1: has been as long as there's no shooting, which is

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Speaker 1: not a sound policy because you know, settling for the

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Speaker 1: bare minimum is not helping any of us. Our youths

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Speaker 1: are leaving in observed absurd amounts to Germany, to Austria,

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Speaker 1: to the United States, people are struggling for for jobs,

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Speaker 1: people are struggling to bind food. You know, all of

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Speaker 1: these things um, on top of the threat of war

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Speaker 1: and violence and conflicts. So it's just it's not a

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Speaker 1: sound policy. And I'm just hoping, um, it will change

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Speaker 1: eventually somehow. I mean, I'm going to keep doing my part,

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Speaker 1: which is, you know, yelling and yelling at people in

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Speaker 1: in there on Twitter and in person and pressuring them

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Speaker 1: to do the right thing and to obviously talk about this.

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Speaker 1: But um, yeah, I just feel like we have such

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Speaker 1: a long, long, long, long road ahead of us. And um,

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Speaker 1: you know, peace is a process. It's a process. So

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Speaker 1: I think where just at the beginning of that process. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so much more to do, I think. I think that's

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Speaker 1: a good place to end on the realization that Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, if if if there's no fundamental change in

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Speaker 1: the structures and in the forces and in the politics

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Speaker 1: that created a war, that created genocide, like it's going

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Speaker 1: to happen again. Yeah, and so you you you have

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Speaker 1: to actually change it. You can't just sort of put

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Speaker 1: this band aid on it and put it in stasis

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Speaker 1: and just leave all the structures intact. You have to

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Speaker 1: now you you have to knock them over before you

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Speaker 1: can build something else. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, nessa think, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for talking with me. Um, where can

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Speaker 1: people find you? And what books do you want to read?

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Speaker 1: Because as as as we've said over and over again

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Speaker 1: on this podcast, do not get your information from podcast,

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Speaker 1: actually read books to think you need what you need

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Speaker 1: to do. UM, yeah, well if you obviously, I know

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Speaker 1: our audience can't see yet. But here's my little one

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Speaker 1: of my little selections of books on Bosnia. UM. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: people can find me on Twitter, um, you know, type

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Speaker 1: in my name A R N E s A. But

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Speaker 1: my at is at our ore R R E s

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Speaker 1: s A. Yeah. Twitter is probably the best place. But

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Speaker 1: also I have a book out so if people want

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Speaker 1: to read it. It is about the Bosnian genocide UM,

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Speaker 1: and it is based on real life experiences of my

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Speaker 1: family and friends. It's called Letters from Diaspora. It's more

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Speaker 1: so the emotional UM side of things. But if you

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Speaker 1: want to learn about the conflict from a leftist perspective,

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Speaker 1: I always recommend UM. And I don't know where it's

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Speaker 1: going out, but I always recommend UM Bosnia, Kosova and

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Speaker 1: Yugoslavia by Mike Kardadigis UM. It's the Marxist perspective on

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Speaker 1: the breakup of Yugoslavia. UM. Additionally, I have a pdf

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Speaker 1: on my Twitter of tons of books. So if you

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Speaker 1: want to learn more about Yugoslavia, about Islam and the Balkans,

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Speaker 1: about the history of Bosnia, about the war Jetta side.

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Speaker 1: Feel free to shoot me a d M. I have

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Speaker 1: a handy little guide that I hand out constantly. Two people. Um,

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Speaker 1: and there's also a list of books on like my

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Speaker 1: website and stuff like that. Yeah, I think I can

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Speaker 1: post it. We can put a link to it in

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Speaker 1: the description. I've I've read some stuff there. It's very good.

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Speaker 1: You should read it. Thanks. I pry myself on really

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Speaker 1: good reading list depending on topic. Oh yeah, yeah, well Vanessa,

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Speaker 1: thank you again. And yeah, this this has when it

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Speaker 1: could happen here? Find us that it could happen here

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Speaker 1: pod on Twitter, Instagram. The rest of the show is

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Speaker 1: that we do are You can find it at the

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Speaker 1: cool Zone on the same places and yeah, oh boy

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Speaker 1: genocide bad hope there's no more work to stop them.

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Speaker 1: It could happen here is a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 1: Well more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website

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Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on

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Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for it could

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Speaker 1: Happen here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com,

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Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening,