Speaker 1: Ola Latino USA listener. You know, we've been spending a
Speaker 1: bit of time remembering and thinking about the one year
Speaker 1: anniversary of the massacre in Uvalde, Texas, and we want
Speaker 1: to share with you an episode of our sister podcast,
Speaker 1: which is called In the Thick. My co host Julio
Speaker 1: Ricardorella and I are joined on this episode of In
Speaker 1: the Thick by an award winning filmmaker. His name is
Speaker 1: Keith Beauchamp. He actually immortalized the work of Maimie Till
Speaker 1: Mobley in his film that he produced and co wrote.
Speaker 1: It's called Till. And we're also joined on this episode
Speaker 1: of In the Thick by Monica Mugnos Martinez, who's a historian.
Speaker 1: She's an associate professor at the University of Texas at Austin.
Speaker 1: She's also a MacArthur Award winning genius for her work
Speaker 1: as a historian. And in this episode, we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about how mothers past and present play a central
Speaker 1: role in the activism that brings change in our country
Speaker 1: and in our world. So I'm really glad that you're
Speaker 1: going to listen to this. It's very thoughtful and it's
Speaker 1: part of our continuing coverage of the one year anniversary
Speaker 1: of Uvalde Guess Yes from Futuro Media and PRX. It's
Speaker 1: in the Thick, a podcast about politics, race and culture.
Speaker 2: I'm Marieojsa and I'm Jude Dirigrloarella.
Speaker 1: And today marks the one year anniversary of the massacre
Speaker 1: in Uvalde, Texas.
Speaker 3: Rob Elementary and Uvalde, where just under six hundred second
Speaker 3: through fourth graders were in school, is about an hour
Speaker 3: and a half just outside of San Antonio. It's a
Speaker 3: smaller community there of a little more than twenty four
Speaker 3: thousand people. A shooting at rob Elementary School in Uvalde
Speaker 3: officially left nineteen children and two adults dead.
Speaker 1: And so a year later, Julio, you know, we're still processing.
Speaker 1: I know, yes, there have been many mass shootings and
Speaker 1: school shootings since then. That's a lot, right, it's a
Speaker 1: lot to deal with. So let me ask you first,
Speaker 1: how you doing, Like, what's your temperature check? On this
Speaker 1: one year anniversary of the massacre at Valde.
Speaker 4: I'm at this point as a journalist, as a commentator,
Speaker 4: as someone who writes opinions on the side, right that
Speaker 4: it's very important to recognize what happened a year ago
Speaker 4: and not to forget it. But I also fear that
Speaker 4: in this day and age, these anniversaries become like media
Speaker 4: checklist items for news organizations and everyone. You know, there's
Speaker 4: a big like, oh, let's talk about the one year anniversary,
Speaker 4: and then everything goes away. And so in hindsight, well,
Speaker 4: I love the decision that you made with your team
Speaker 4: to say we're not doing that and we're here forever.
Speaker 4: I think about families a lot today, about the kids,
Speaker 4: your thoughts. I know you've gone through a lot about
Speaker 4: your temp check.
Speaker 1: Right now on the anniversary, it's a really tough day,
Speaker 1: and I really wish I was in Uvalde, to just
Speaker 1: be hanging out in the softball field, playing with the kids,
Speaker 1: eating Mexican food, going to the bird sanctuary.
Speaker 2: But I'm far away. I'm here in New York.
Speaker 1: I'm in touch with the families, well, in particular, i'm
Speaker 1: in touch with the Gonzali's family that I've become close to.
Speaker 2: How am I doing. I'm hopeful for Uvalde.
Speaker 1: I'm horrified that they had to live through this, but
Speaker 1: there's a part of me that still has hope. But
Speaker 1: it's hard. I'm really sad. I'm really sad to meet sadness.
Speaker 1: You also have to find joy. So I'm really busy
Speaker 1: also trying to find something joyful to think about it.
Speaker 1: And when I think about joy, I think about Caitlin Gonzalius,
Speaker 1: who survived the massacre and who is just we have
Speaker 1: a lot of fun, like when I jumped on the
Speaker 1: zip line with her in the backyard. And in fact,
Speaker 1: that's how the Latino USA piece called Uvalde Rising, that's
Speaker 1: how it actually starts with laughter. You're ready, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: this is so fun.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is so fun. Now what do
Speaker 2: I do?
Speaker 5: Now?
Speaker 2: What do I do?
Speaker 1: And so over the past year, I've been spending on
Speaker 1: everybody who follows me. Knew I was in Texas, they
Speaker 1: knew I was in South Texas. They didn't know that
Speaker 1: I was in Uvalde. It's a new documentary that is
Speaker 1: co produced by Futuro Investigates, Frontline on PBS and the
Speaker 1: Texas Tribune. It's called After Uvalde, Guns, Grief and Texas Politics.
Speaker 1: At premiers on Tuesday, May thirtieth, you can watch it
Speaker 1: on PBS and across streaming platforms. I really do hope
Speaker 1: you will watch. We're gonna lift a clip. This is
Speaker 1: one of the more dramatic moments, and there are a
Speaker 1: few from the front line. This is my interview with
Speaker 1: doctor Roy Guerrero, who is basically the only pediatrician in
Speaker 1: the city of Uvalde.
Speaker 2: Let's go to the tape.
Speaker 6: So they took me back there, and that's truly when
Speaker 6: I realize the caliber of what these weapons can do
Speaker 6: to a child's body. So imagine a child who's decapitated.
Speaker 2: What else do I have.
Speaker 7: To tell you?
Speaker 6: Huge chest wounds where it seems like, you know, someone
Speaker 6: bore a hand through the full chest. The only consoleance
Speaker 6: I have to myself is maybe it was so fast
Speaker 6: that they didn't have time to suffer, that they went quickly.
Speaker 6: Maybe not peacefully, but quickly.
Speaker 2: I mean, you're reduced to saying that to.
Speaker 6: Parents, what else can I do?
Speaker 4: Because I couldn't have done anything for them that.
Speaker 2: Day, So, Julio.
Speaker 1: The reporting side of this, right is that the families
Speaker 1: actually have been demanding to get access to the footage
Speaker 1: that has been recorded, because there are hours, over one
Speaker 1: hundred hours of tape from security cameras, from body cameras
Speaker 1: that document everything that happened. As you know, I saw
Speaker 1: some of that, but the families of Uvalde, the families Yeah,
Speaker 1: the ones who should be able to see what they
Speaker 1: want when it involves their children, they have been denied
Speaker 1: access to all of this. That's just one of the
Speaker 1: as I would say, falta respetos. You know, the jobs
Speaker 1: at the families in Uvalde, and it has been a
Speaker 1: labor of love.
Speaker 2: It has.
Speaker 1: It's really been extraordinary and has changed my life. But
Speaker 1: mostly I'm just thinking about the friends that I now
Speaker 1: have in Uvalde.
Speaker 4: Right on a day like today, because you know, first
Speaker 4: of all, doctor Gifrido's clip, when I saw it as
Speaker 4: a parent, as a human being, as being the only
Speaker 4: pediatrician in Ualde, I just can't even begin to think
Speaker 4: of that day and can't even begin to think of
Speaker 4: what's happening today in Oualde. Really in a way, grateful
Speaker 4: to you as a journalist for doing it with part
Speaker 4: and I'm just deeply proud.
Speaker 1: And I appreciate that Julia and we did absolutely, I mean,
Speaker 1: we move as a team with heart, being very conscious
Speaker 1: of the traumatic space that we were in Uvalde, making
Speaker 1: up a commitment to spend quite a bit of time there.
Speaker 1: But you know, this is a frontline documentary, and frontline
Speaker 1: at its core is investigative work.
Speaker 2: And so.
Speaker 1: The investigative part, I think is really revealing, and it's
Speaker 1: not a good look for the state of Texas or
Speaker 1: for the governor. Now, you know people in the state
Speaker 1: of Texas are reporting. Is showing, right, is that they
Speaker 1: are beginning, even people who are Republicans, right, are beginning
Speaker 1: to need to have some more answers rather than just
Speaker 1: you know, it's mental health, mental health, mental health. So
Speaker 1: the conversation about the fact that the Uvalde families, not
Speaker 1: all of them, but some of them have been pushing
Speaker 1: as activists to get the state to raise the age
Speaker 1: of purchase for an assault weapon from eighteen to twenty one. Right,
Speaker 1: the shooter was eighteen days after he turned eighteen. That's
Speaker 1: when he bought the gun, That's when he got the bullets.
Speaker 1: That's then this horrible thing happened. The activism of the families,
Speaker 1: and there's a long history of activism in nuvaldeve As.
Speaker 1: We've talked about that, the student walk out, et cetera
Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies. This is one of the investigative stories,
Speaker 1: right that we're pursuing, which is watching how the families
Speaker 1: in fact have been able to affect the politics of
Speaker 1: Texas and the investigative side, which is the fact that
Speaker 1: even though Texas has the second highest rate of mass
Speaker 1: shootings in our country, that since the first shooting that
Speaker 1: was tracked by the Texas Tribune in their investigation in
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties up until now, there has been no
Speaker 1: legislation ever even brought to the floor in the state
Speaker 1: of Texas to address this. And it's because there's this
Speaker 1: whole culture of the gun in Texas. But I think
Speaker 1: that there's Uvalde is definitely part of a tipping point.
Speaker 1: Are they there yet? No, But again it's because of
Speaker 1: the families in Uvalde and their activism that anything has changed.
Speaker 4: You know, you said to me, I remember, and you
Speaker 4: told me straight up, I'm a different journalist after Uvalde.
Speaker 4: I'm a different person after Uvalde. And I noticed it,
Speaker 4: and I can say I can speak this with authority
Speaker 4: because I've known you now for eight and a half
Speaker 4: years and you told me that straight up, and I
Speaker 4: saw a difference in you, and it's a good difference.
Speaker 4: I think I see you on this path of like
Speaker 4: this will be a place for me forever, Like I
Speaker 4: will not forget this community, and it lends itself to
Speaker 4: the long term issue of PTSD which you suffered from after.
Speaker 2: Nine to eleven and talk about a lot.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you talk about the PTSD within the Valde community,
Speaker 4: especially for the survivors of the shooting. So this notion
Speaker 4: of the deep impacts of PTSD and mental health in
Speaker 4: the Valde community is definitely one of the parts of
Speaker 4: the story that you reported on in the Frontline documentary
Speaker 4: and the Latino USA Audio companion reporting. So let's take
Speaker 4: a listen to a clip from all your reporting.
Speaker 8: These kids are it's just they're walking PTSD just like
Speaker 8: a veteran and it you know veterans, you know they
Speaker 8: have to fight for getting mental health access and we're
Speaker 8: being put in the same situation, except the only difference is,
Speaker 8: you know, they signed up for my children. My child
Speaker 8: did not.
Speaker 4: So, Madia, we can talk about the facts and the
Speaker 4: figures and the charts and the graphs and the calls
Speaker 4: for gun legislation in this country, but the longer term
Speaker 4: health effects of Uvalde are much harder to measure. What
Speaker 4: can you tell us from your reporting to paint a
Speaker 4: picture of why it's so hard to measure?
Speaker 1: So, as everyone who listens to our fabulous show, you
Speaker 1: all know that I developed PTSD after covering September eleventh
Speaker 1: for CNN and being a mom to young children at
Speaker 1: the time, and so what was weird for me? What
Speaker 1: was hard, What was the challenge was finding myself as
Speaker 1: far away as possible from New York in Uvalde, Texas
Speaker 1: and identifying with the trauma that I was seeing everywhere
Speaker 1: in Uvalde. I mean everywhere everyone that you met is
Speaker 1: dealing with this. There's just no other way. So you
Speaker 1: have an entire town that needs to actually do public healing,
Speaker 1: like massive auditorium style meditation. And I'm just coming up
Speaker 1: with this off the top of my head. I no, no,
Speaker 1: like musical healing, like open the public park and like
Speaker 1: this is a place that needs that like on a
Speaker 1: weekly basis. Wow, Right, if Uvalde is a mental health
Speaker 1: desert because you have one psychiatrist, right, and now there
Speaker 1: is more attention being placed. But that was basically all
Speaker 1: you had, So now you have this much more need.
Speaker 1: The reporting that we did is that the people of
Speaker 1: Uvalde feel neglected, have felt that way for decades actually
Speaker 1: by the state, and then this kind of like you
Speaker 1: don't matter, You're just not that important, and sadly, oh
Speaker 1: ya Mejulia, this was hard to hear, and I heard
Speaker 1: it the day I got to Uvalde the first time
Speaker 1: in January, which was the families have been told, you know,
Speaker 1: they should get over it, and it's like, you're kidding
Speaker 1: me that anyone would say this to any family in Nuvalde.
Speaker 2: So the trauma is going to be there for a
Speaker 2: long time.
Speaker 1: And my hope is that it becomes not a mental
Speaker 1: health desert but becomes a mental health garden, and that
Speaker 1: people who have capacity to offer mental health services go
Speaker 1: to Uvalde and help.
Speaker 2: This is a town that needs help.
Speaker 1: Of course, the other side of the story is that
Speaker 1: the people of Uvalde are people who understand activism and
Speaker 1: they are demanding things, that's for sure.
Speaker 4: Hey, before we go, there's a particular animal that's popular
Speaker 4: in Uvalde. What is the animal? And why did you
Speaker 4: ask me to ask you that question? Because now I'm
Speaker 4: infinitely curious about this connection.
Speaker 1: So the reason why I asked you to ask me
Speaker 1: this question and is because I think people think of
Speaker 1: Uvalde now and they just think, oh my god, horror, terrible,
Speaker 1: you know, sadness morning. Yes, I want people to understand
Speaker 1: that there is a lot of beauty and joy and
Speaker 1: happiness in Uvalde, and I also experience that and that
Speaker 1: my life has been changed by getting to know Caitlin Gonzalez,
Speaker 1: her mom, Gladys, her dad Nef, her little sister Camilla.
Speaker 1: She's a survivor and she's an activist now. And so
Speaker 1: we laughed a lot. There's a lot of laughter that
Speaker 1: I experienced in Uvalde. And so there's actually an Instagram
Speaker 1: for the chickens of Uvalde. Yes, the chickens, because the chickens.
Speaker 1: I'm loving that. I'm laughing while I'm talking about Valde
Speaker 1: because lose guys Ubalde are so famous. They have an
Speaker 1: Instagram page because you never know where they're going to
Speaker 1: show up, and they kind of pop out in the
Speaker 1: middle of the road.
Speaker 4: I following now, I'm following it.
Speaker 1: We wanted this to be part of the front line,
Speaker 1: you know. I think they were like, yeah, no, I
Speaker 1: don't think we can go.
Speaker 2: Coming up on frontline Los Poo.
Speaker 1: So I just want people to understand that. Also, Walde
Speaker 1: now is a place of extraordinary art. The murals that
Speaker 1: they made for the kids and the two teachers son
Speaker 1: impression Nantees, and it is the place where I got
Speaker 1: the coldest beer I've ever had in the United States
Speaker 1: of America in Uwalde, Texas. So let's also bring joy
Speaker 1: those of you who can, you know, send what you
Speaker 1: can to the people of Uvalde that brings joy and
Speaker 1: happiness because they need it and they're also, like all
Speaker 1: of us, after trauma, trying to put it together by
Speaker 1: putting one foot in front of the other.
Speaker 2: So, dear listener, after.
Speaker 1: The break, we're going to continue our conversation about Uvalde,
Speaker 1: and actually we're going to bring in Keith Beauchamp. He's
Speaker 1: a filmmaker who made the movie Till, and Monica Munhos Martinez,
Speaker 1: who is a historian from Muvalde. We're going to talk
Speaker 1: about the role of moms in all of this and
Speaker 1: decisions that moms make in a tragic moment. So Nottevayes Hey,
Speaker 1: welcome back to in the Thick. I'm Maria no Josa.
Speaker 1: Let's turn to our roundtable. Now joining us for this
Speaker 1: discussion from the liberated Territory or something like that of Brooklyn,
Speaker 1: New York is Keith Beauchamp. He's an award winning filmmaker
Speaker 1: and producer on the film Till. Keith, it's great to
Speaker 1: have you on the show. Welcome from Brooklyn. I'm in Harlem.
Speaker 1: All in the house.
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: And joining us.
Speaker 1: From Austin, Texas. Is Monica Muno's Martinez. She's somebody who
Speaker 1: I see as a guiding light in the story of
Speaker 1: Uvalde and understanding it. She's a historian and associate professor
Speaker 1: the University of Texas at Austin, a MacArthur Genius Award fellow.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, Monica. It's great to be talking
Speaker 1: to you again.
Speaker 7: It's great to be with you.
Speaker 1: So Monica knows this because I actually was inspired because
Speaker 1: of the work that Monica has done as a historian
Speaker 1: on Uvalde and on violence in Texas against Mexicans and Latinos.
Speaker 1: So basically, for the greater part of this year and
Speaker 1: a little bit of last, I have been reporting on
Speaker 1: Uvalde and the aftermath. And that means that I've been
Speaker 1: on a lot of planes, too many hotels and a
Speaker 1: lot of planes. And I was traveling to Austin actually
Speaker 1: to cover a hearing recently on gun legislation, and I
Speaker 1: was looking for the movies on the plane and Till
Speaker 1: was there. Till Is the movie directed by Chinoya Chiku
Speaker 1: produced and co written by U Keith. It tells the
Speaker 1: story of maybe Till Mobley's fight for justice for her son,
Speaker 1: fourteen year old Emmett Till. Remember, of course, he was
Speaker 1: lynched in nineteen fifty five. And you know, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people think, oh, my god, Till, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be it's gonna be a horrible movie. In fact,
Speaker 1: it's such a beautiful film, so beautifully directed and acted
Speaker 1: and everything, the cinematography, the music, the production just beautiful,
Speaker 1: even though it's a film about something really horrible. And
Speaker 1: so I want to know, actually, Keith, you, being close
Speaker 1: to mother Mobley, what do you keep in mind as
Speaker 1: you continue to document Emmett Till's legacy even after she's gone.
Speaker 1: And you know, again, it was nineteen fifty five when
Speaker 1: Mother Mobley made this decision to have an open casket.
Speaker 1: It changed his But I'm wondering, what are the things
Speaker 1: that you hold close, Keith.
Speaker 5: Well, what I hold close is a lot of the
Speaker 5: things that she instilled in me before she passed away.
Speaker 5: She understood the importance of telling Emmitt's story time and
Speaker 5: time again. I've said often when I've done interviews over
Speaker 5: the years, there's no other story that speaks more to
Speaker 5: this generation political and racial climate than the story of
Speaker 5: Emmit Lewis Till then I think about many of the
Speaker 5: things that she used to say to me. White thing
Speaker 5: comes to mind often. She used to say to me
Speaker 5: all the time, Keith, you must continuously tell Emmitt's story
Speaker 5: until man's consciousness is risen, because only then that would
Speaker 5: mean justice for him. At till and for the longest time,
Speaker 5: I didn't quite understand what she was trying to instill
Speaker 5: in me. I was young. Here's this iconic civil rights
Speaker 5: icon who's actually talking to me, Little Keith Bowshop from
Speaker 5: Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
Speaker 2: And I didn't really.
Speaker 5: Understand what she was trying to tell me until I'm
Speaker 5: matured in understanding the story of Immatetill a lot more,
Speaker 5: and of course how the civil rights movement had come along,
Speaker 5: and so what she was trying to say to me
Speaker 5: that I realized now more than ever. She was trying
Speaker 5: to say that no matter how long I fight, no
Speaker 5: matter how hard I fight to get justice for her son,
Speaker 5: it's not going to stop all the immitate tills of
Speaker 5: the world from hand. And of course, in recent years
Speaker 5: and decades, we see that happening time and time again,
Speaker 5: and so I truly believe that Mother Mobley had the
Speaker 5: blueprint to men's liberation when it comes to racial progression
Speaker 5: in this country, and of course when we're fighting against
Speaker 5: social injustice. And so it's still the story of Mattil
Speaker 5: and which is why I continue to tell the story.
Speaker 5: That is important that we understand what transpired in nineteen
Speaker 5: fifty five, because I firmly believe if we forget our past,
Speaker 5: history will repeat itself. And that's what we're saying happening today.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that, Keith. And what part
Speaker 2: did you say? Where are you from? Exactly in Louisiana.
Speaker 2: Baton Rouge, Baton Rouge.
Speaker 1: All right, Baton Rouge is representing just saying we love Louisiana. So, Monica,
Speaker 1: you actually grew up in Uvalde, Texas. You joined us
Speaker 1: just a few days after the massacre happened in Uvalde.
Speaker 2: You are now based in Austin, Texas.
Speaker 1: And your research that you spoke to us about this
Speaker 1: on Latino USA goes deep into law enforcement violence against
Speaker 1: Latinos and Latinas in Texas and along the border. But
Speaker 1: you've also researched racial violence in the civil rights era
Speaker 1: as well. And these examples from Emmett Till's murder to
Speaker 1: the deadliest school shooting in Texas and Wilde are basically
Speaker 1: showing us that policing and law enforcement don't always take
Speaker 1: the responsibility in the fight for justice, obviously, and that
Speaker 1: it sadly it falls on the mothers to prove their
Speaker 1: pain and basically have to kind of use their pain
Speaker 1: and their range to inspire change. And one of these
Speaker 1: this is why I'm fascinated by Valde, and we'll talk
Speaker 1: about that in a second. But in another part of Texas,
Speaker 1: there's a mom named Ronda Hart. She's the mother of
Speaker 1: Kimberly Vaughn. Her fourteen year old daughter died in May
Speaker 1: of twenty eighteen in the Santa Fe, Texas High school shooting,
Speaker 1: which was the first school shooting in Texas, and Ronda
Speaker 1: has now become an activist pushing for tighter gun laws
Speaker 1: in Texas. And she's interestingly not a surprise, right she's
Speaker 1: been blocked from viewing her daughter's autopsy report. She's pushing
Speaker 1: to get it. Not everybody wants these things, but some
Speaker 1: people do, and you have to fight for it. So
Speaker 1: this is what she told our producer Futuro investigates producer
Speaker 1: Sofia Sanchez about this situation.
Speaker 2: Let's take a listen, Let's go to the tape.
Speaker 7: That's the whole thing I've been lobbying for this session
Speaker 7: is to get my autopsy report.
Speaker 5: After five years, I still don't have that.
Speaker 7: Our district attorney in Galison County won't give it to us.
Speaker 2: It's his discretion, but he chooses not to.
Speaker 1: So Monica, there is historical context. Again, we're talking about
Speaker 1: what happened to emmat Till in nineteen fifty five. We're
Speaker 1: talking about what happened in Uvalde in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1: We're talking about what happened five years ago in Santa Fe,
Speaker 1: Texas in the high school. Can you give us some
Speaker 1: historical context though, about how it is that mothers and
Speaker 1: I know that this is part of the work that
Speaker 1: you've done in documenting other massacres. It's actually mothers and children,
Speaker 1: mothers of the victim and children's survivors. They end up
Speaker 1: having to kind of fight for access to the story,
Speaker 1: to the truth, to the facts. But there is historical
Speaker 1: context here. This doesn't just happen now, right. Can you
Speaker 1: help us understand this.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So, unfortunately, the history of racial violence in this
Speaker 7: country teaches us a lot of things about violence today.
Speaker 7: You know, Number one is that time does not heal
Speaker 7: all wounds. That feelings of injustice are carried and they
Speaker 7: are passed from generation to generation, and they impact how communities,
Speaker 7: community relations, and how people perceive their relationship to government,
Speaker 7: to police and institutions. So Notable on Clodia Rodriguez lives
Speaker 7: in San Antonio. She's a descendant of Hisshu's Bazzad and
Speaker 7: Anthonio Long Clodia, who were murdered in twenty fifteen by
Speaker 7: a pose that included a Texas ranger. And so when
Speaker 7: I asked, you know why she had committed so much
Speaker 7: time to preserving that story, she said, it's injustice never
Speaker 7: leaves you, it's inherited loss. And you know, I have
Speaker 7: studied people like notable on Couadiodo Vegas, but also people
Speaker 7: who survived in the aftermath of murders, police homicides, massacres,
Speaker 7: lynchings and seeing that in calling for redress and calling
Speaker 7: for accountability and transparency for records, they left a record.
Speaker 7: And especially if we think about violence, that is state sanctioned.
Speaker 7: If we think about the history of police homicides, that
Speaker 7: the police people who were calling for violence or who
Speaker 7: were aggressors, they also preserved a corrupt archive. And so
Speaker 7: that meant that due to false reports and corrupt archives,
Speaker 7: that victims and survivors carried the burden of being the
Speaker 7: truth tellers. And so this included parents, This included children,
Speaker 7: in some cases grandparents, and also people who witnessed violence, massacres,
Speaker 7: police homicides, and who were deeply troubled by what they witnessed,
Speaker 7: haunted by it, and compelled to testify. So, you know,
Speaker 7: I senso Walde, you know, thought about some of the
Speaker 7: kids and the families that I wrote about for my
Speaker 7: book Research and I wrote about for my book, and
Speaker 7: one of the stories that keeps returning to me is
Speaker 7: the story of Matina and Goncepsian Swasta, who witnessed the
Speaker 7: lynching of their father, Flodentino Swasta and Cotula, Texas in
Speaker 7: eighteen ninety five, and the local law enforcement, you know,
Speaker 7: acting with a culture of impunity, falsely explained that the
Speaker 7: you know, a mob had overtaken the jailer and removed
Speaker 7: Flordenthino by force, and that they couldn't be identified. And
Speaker 7: it's one of these daughters who witnessed this that said no,
Speaker 7: the jailer let them in. And one of these daughters
Speaker 7: who identified one of the mob participants by name, gave
Speaker 7: a physical description his hair color, his beard color, and
Speaker 7: that she did so she recognized one of them when
Speaker 7: she was begging in town for money. And so it
Speaker 7: just gives you a glimpse into the life of people
Speaker 7: living in a period of racial terror, the extreme vulnerability
Speaker 7: and yet the deep commitment to justice and the links
Speaker 7: that people have been willing to go to seek the truth,
Speaker 7: to get closure, and even just to be able to
Speaker 7: start to heal by having information about what happened. And
Speaker 7: so it's deeply troubling that today we have families that
Speaker 7: are in pain, that are asking, that haven't had their
Speaker 7: most basic questions answered, and that they have anything in
Speaker 7: common with people who witnessed and survived lynchings and massacres
Speaker 7: more than one hundred years ago.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a horror and it is sadly it is
Speaker 1: a part of our country. And that's why I think
Speaker 1: what happened with Mother Mobley and the decision that she
Speaker 1: aid in a modern era, right where newspapers were now
Speaker 1: carrying photographs. Of course what she said to the funeral director.
Speaker 9: I looked at mister Rayner, and mister Rayner wanted to
Speaker 9: know was I going to have the casket opened? I said, oh, yes,
Speaker 9: we're going to open the casket. He said, well, Miss Bradley,
Speaker 9: do you want me to, oh do something for the face,
Speaker 9: want me to try to fix it up? I said, no,
Speaker 9: let the people see what I've seen. I said, I
Speaker 9: want the world to see this.
Speaker 1: And then, you know, there was a distribution of this
Speaker 1: graphic photograph of his mutilated body to the media, and
Speaker 1: that photo changed history right sixty eight years later. It's
Speaker 1: a reminder of the violent structure basically of white supremacy,
Speaker 1: the power of white supremacy that is at the core
Speaker 1: of this country. Again, even though the film Till is
Speaker 1: about this, you know, this, this mutilation right based on
Speaker 1: hatred and a lie. Mother Mobley said, everybody's going to
Speaker 1: see this. And I wonder at this point about the conversation,
Speaker 1: which is incredibly controversial, right around the power of graphic
Speaker 1: images and igniting change. We're going to take a listen
Speaker 1: again to another clip from Ronda Hart, who again is
Speaker 1: still waiting for access to her daughter's crime scene photos.
Speaker 2: I think that they should be shared. I think that
Speaker 2: the public needs to know. I don't think that.
Speaker 7: There's any other way to really illustrate the devastation the
Speaker 7: guns can cause. And I think that, you know, maybe
Speaker 7: not showing a victim's fees like my daughter was shot
Speaker 7: and her torso and stuff, but showing her injuries.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would support that. I think they should make
Speaker 2: it public.
Speaker 1: So I find it interesting Keith and Monica that the
Speaker 1: state probably in reaction to what mother Mobley did. The
Speaker 1: state has ultimate control. Again, this is your child's body.
Speaker 1: You are the parent. You should have the right to
Speaker 1: anything in regards to this, and yet the state is
Speaker 1: saying no, yes, And so I'm wondering, Keith, how you
Speaker 1: process this really challenging conversation about the sharing of graphic images,
Speaker 1: especially after these conversations that you had with mother Mobley
Speaker 1: and documenting her life.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's really a troubling moment to continue
Speaker 5: to hear what it seems to be decades after decade
Speaker 5: of people having this type of conversation about an atrocity
Speaker 5: that we're faced with today. And so it's very important
Speaker 5: to understand the magnitude of Mother Mobley's decision to have
Speaker 5: an open casket funeral so the world could see what
Speaker 5: happened to her son. Because without that courageous decision, we
Speaker 5: would have never heard the likes of people such as
Speaker 5: Martin Luther King, Sister Rosa Parks, and so on. You
Speaker 5: wouldn't have had a movement of the sixties because many
Speaker 5: of those who are part of that movement would tell
Speaker 5: you that they're from the Emmit Toll generation. And so
Speaker 5: I guess what I'm saying, Maria. If we're looking for
Speaker 5: a new movement for change, one must take action. And
Speaker 5: what is that action? Well, if we could take a
Speaker 5: look at what transpired in nineteen fifty five and the
Speaker 5: courageousness of Mother Mobley having this open casket funeral, And
Speaker 5: for people to understand you have to understand this. There
Speaker 5: were many lynchings going on at that time in fifty five.
Speaker 5: A lot of the victims were a lot younger than
Speaker 5: Emmitt Till. But what set this away from all the
Speaker 5: others was her courageous decision to have an open casket funeral.
Speaker 5: And is that photograph that awakened the sleeping giant of
Speaker 5: good hearted people across the globe. And that's why we
Speaker 5: saw change now Again, if we're looking for a change today,
Speaker 5: and we've all been longing for a new movement, well,
Speaker 5: in order for us to truly understand how to reach
Speaker 5: that level, that goal of a new movement for change,
Speaker 5: we have to understand what transpired in nineteen fifty five
Speaker 5: and the courageous actions of Mother mobe. Now, nothing hits
Speaker 5: you more than a visual and Mother Mobley knew that,
Speaker 5: which is why she had this open casket fune because
Speaker 5: it wasn't just someone telling you about a lynching that
Speaker 5: took place. Now you could see the visual of what
Speaker 5: this lynching had done to this fourteen year olbo, and
Speaker 5: that's what made it so powerful. If it was fourteen
Speaker 5: years old, we could all relate to being fourteen years old.
Speaker 5: So yeah, to the mothers and to the families of
Speaker 5: your valde, I have to support many of those decisions
Speaker 5: of having these pictures shown. We had the same conversation
Speaker 5: with Sandy Hook took place and everybody was saying that
Speaker 5: we need an immit till moment, and I don't believe
Speaker 5: that things would change until we have that Imma till
Speaker 5: moment with these families.
Speaker 1: The thing is Monica, and you may not agree, right,
Speaker 1: So I believe that this is such a personal decision, right,
Speaker 1: And having been on a lot of ends of death,
Speaker 1: right including having a family member who disappeared in Mexico
Speaker 1: and therefore having that thing, which is that you want
Speaker 1: to know everything about their death. And some people can
Speaker 1: understand that they feel like that's a little gory. But mony, guys,
Speaker 1: you know, in fact, there is somebody who I'm I'm
Speaker 1: Internet friends with and who I've interviewed on Latino USA
Speaker 1: whose own daughter, Anna Grace, was murdered in Sandy Hook,
Speaker 1: Nelba Marquez Green. And Nelba is very adamant. She says,
Speaker 1: do not ask me to show the photographs. How dare you?
Speaker 1: What an act of disrespect of any journalist to ask
Speaker 1: me to share that? And so I hold Nelba in
Speaker 1: my heart as I'm also you know, having been in
Speaker 1: Uvalde basically since January on and off. And the one
Speaker 1: the horror that the parents went through, the fact that
Speaker 1: they are being denied all access to any information, any photographs,
Speaker 1: any video. But this is a difficult one, moniquette. So
Speaker 1: you have two ways to look at this. One is
Speaker 1: a historian, and two as a mom and as a Texan,
Speaker 1: as a Mexicana from Muvalde, and somebody who's been very
Speaker 1: close to the community since the massacre on May twenty fourth,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. So give us, give us how you
Speaker 1: process this conversation, this debate.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's so complicated. It's so complex. And I'll start
Speaker 7: by first responding to the what you described as the
Speaker 7: impulse for wanting to know every detail of what happened
Speaker 7: to your loved one, and coordinating with experts and trauma
Speaker 7: who have conducted trauma informed work, that that is actually
Speaker 7: something that is very common, and that for families who
Speaker 7: lose a loved one to violent crime, that having details
Speaker 7: about what happened is a crucial part to start healing.
Speaker 7: And so family members of a mother's, siblings, a child's,
Speaker 7: if someone is asking for information and seeking information, photographs,
Speaker 7: or autopsies, they should have access to that information. I
Speaker 7: think that it's I've learned that it's important for them
Speaker 7: to be able to heal. And again, not everybody wants
Speaker 7: all of the same information, and so that is an
Speaker 7: individual request. But as a historian, I've also and I
Speaker 7: have seen you know, from the history of the NAACP
Speaker 7: and journalists like IDB. Wells and social luminaries like Mother
Speaker 7: mobile that the anti lynching movement was tireless and worked
Speaker 7: for over half a century to try to end the
Speaker 7: lynching culture and raise national consciousness about the inhumanity of
Speaker 7: the practice. And it took decades worth of work. And
Speaker 7: really the Immittill moment was so crucial because it did
Speaker 7: raise the national consciousness so that there was a movement
Speaker 7: then to end the practice.
Speaker 1: Because I'm sorry to interrupt, but in some ways, Moniquet,
Speaker 1: what had happened is that there were photographs of men
Speaker 1: who had been lynched. In fact, they were made into postcards.
Speaker 1: They were sent via US Postal Service. So it's almost
Speaker 1: like when people say, well people will get desensitized, Well,
Speaker 1: there was a desensitization to men being lynched, right, except
Speaker 1: then Mother Mobley makes this decision and it changes everything.
Speaker 7: Well, it's also in a different moment. It's post brown
Speaker 7: versus board, and so across the country and the South,
Speaker 7: in different states, there's an effort in southern states like
Speaker 7: Texas to maintain segregation. And so the decision the open casket,
Speaker 7: the horror of the lynching of Emmett till it also
Speaker 7: was at a moment in which the nation and people
Speaker 7: across the country were making decisions about the world that they.
Speaker 2: Wanted to live in.
Speaker 7: And so what I have to contrast today is that
Speaker 7: the majority of Americans, the majority of Texans, believe and
Speaker 7: support in common sense gun reform. And it's not the
Speaker 7: need to shake the national conscience. It's a need to
Speaker 7: shape legislators into passing legislation. So something that I am
Speaker 7: returning to Kimberly and Felix Rubio who showed a photograph
Speaker 7: of their daughter Alexi in an open casket to a
Speaker 7: US senator and asked for their support in passing gun
Speaker 7: reform in the honor of Lexi and so that other
Speaker 7: kids would not suffer the same violence, and it didn't happen.
Speaker 7: And also State Senator Roland Gutierez he in Texas has
Speaker 7: also explained that he has legislators who refuse to look
Speaker 7: at the footage that they have access to from Mold
Speaker 7: And so for me, it's a question of what is
Speaker 7: putting information out there, putting photographs out there? Will people look,
Speaker 7: Will the people who can make decisions look? And my
Speaker 7: other concern is that we are living in a climate
Speaker 7: when we are experienced a mentical health crisis, and particularly
Speaker 7: the mental health crisis among youth, and the way that
Speaker 7: images circulate now, the way that kids have access to
Speaker 7: what's put online, to me is worrisome. But that question
Speaker 7: of what will make people who are in positions of
Speaker 7: power to make changes in policy, what will make them
Speaker 7: look is something that I don't have an answer for.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's so hard, so listen, we're gonna wrap up.
Speaker 1: And as I've said now that I'm talking about making
Speaker 1: the frontline film in Uvalde, and actually le Bretavad le
Speaker 1: Bret Vad, Monica and Keith after seeing some of the images,
Speaker 1: because as an investigative journalist, yes, I have seen things
Speaker 1: about Uvalde, and I am not the same the before
Speaker 1: and after Marie No Josse is not just one who
Speaker 1: has been impressed by the horror of it, impressed in
Speaker 1: the sense of like it will stay. It's marked me
Speaker 1: like a tattoo on my brain. But also Monica, we
Speaker 1: haven't had a chance to talk about this, but to me, Uvalde,
Speaker 1: the fact that the parents of Uvalde have stepped up
Speaker 1: and spoken back to the Texas politics to the Republican
Speaker 1: legislature of the Republican governor that they were able to move.
Speaker 1: The legislator was never able to pass, but they were
Speaker 1: able to at least be heard have a hearing. You
Speaker 1: to have a hearing where they could speak to me.
Speaker 1: There is, in fact, a lot of hope, and I
Speaker 1: center that hope. It's what actually keeps me going. So
Speaker 1: we're going to end on hope. And actually, Keith, we'll
Speaker 1: start with you. Like I said, I hope everybody watches
Speaker 1: the movie Till because it is such a beautiful movie,
Speaker 1: and it does fill me with hope because, as you said,
Speaker 1: it was a call across the world. It was not
Speaker 1: just the United States, it was the whole world that
Speaker 1: was saying no more. So, what's something that gives you
Speaker 1: hope in this whole conversation that we can hold on to.
Speaker 5: Well, it gives me hope that you have a show
Speaker 5: such as this that allows someone to speak. I mean,
Speaker 5: many of these families, and I've worked with many of them,
Speaker 5: they just want the opportunity to have a platform to
Speaker 5: speak about their loved ones, to have a recorded history
Speaker 5: so they would be remembered. And that gives me hope.
Speaker 5: That you have a show such as this that allows that.
Speaker 5: But also I want people to be encouraged. You know,
Speaker 5: just by showing a photograph, you won't receive action by
Speaker 5: that alone. It's going to take the people to collectively
Speaker 5: get involved with change for change to happen. And so
Speaker 5: you can't help but have hope, especially someone such as
Speaker 5: myself who've devoted his life to civil human rights, many
Speaker 5: of us who have made this decision to take on
Speaker 5: social injustice in this country. We know that it takes
Speaker 5: some time. That you know, we're talking about generational ills
Speaker 5: and may take the generation of two to fix, but
Speaker 5: we know that we must be on the front lines
Speaker 5: to fight. And so I have hope just simply being
Speaker 5: on this show and you know, being able to speak
Speaker 5: about my SHEI ro and the things that we must
Speaker 5: be doing in this country if we ever want to
Speaker 5: see change happen again.
Speaker 1: And dude, you know, when did you ever think that
Speaker 1: the movie Till would be playing on the airplanes in
Speaker 1: the United States and that people. Yeah, so if you're
Speaker 1: if you haven't watched it, please please please do Monica,
Speaker 1: something that you've held on to in the conversation that
Speaker 1: gives you hope again. You grew up in Uvalde, that
Speaker 1: you live in Austin now, but something about the families
Speaker 1: removal there maybe that is giving you hope.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 7: I mean, it's one of the things that is just
Speaker 7: so profound that there's such a deep commitment weld to
Speaker 7: heal and to repair and actually to go to great
Speaker 7: links to improve the social wellbeing of every kid in Velde,
Speaker 7: and in that process finding strategies and solutions to meet
Speaker 7: the magnitude of unmet needs. There's such a deep commitment
Speaker 7: by people involved it to taking those and helping improve
Speaker 7: the well being of kids across Texas, across the state,
Speaker 7: and across the world. And that deep commitment to saying
Speaker 7: we're going to fight for justice not just for our
Speaker 7: own families, but for families everywhere is so deeply inspiring.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this Morniquay, because it
Speaker 1: happened kind of quickly, But on the Friday after the shooting,
Speaker 1: the mass shooting in Nashville a couple of weeks back,
Speaker 1: Kitlin Gonzalez and a bunch of her fifth grade classmates
Speaker 1: from rob Elementary.
Speaker 2: Now they're no longer at that school, but they walked out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they walked out of the classroom, they had little
Speaker 1: you know, lined you know signs, they're lined paper signs,
Speaker 1: which was like, stop the gun violence, remember the twenty
Speaker 1: one No. I mean, it was just extraordinary, and so
Speaker 1: thank you for saying that it's what I hold on to.
Speaker 1: I never would have imagined that I would feel so
Speaker 1: close to a family of I mean, they're great Americans
Speaker 1: because they're participating in the political process as activists, and
Speaker 1: that this new part of my extended family is in Uvalde, Texas,
Speaker 1: and it's Caitlin and Gladys, Gonzalez and neph and Gamilla,
Speaker 1: you know, and we text back and forth and they're like,
Speaker 1: you know, Caitlyn's you know, doing softball right now, or
Speaker 1: Caitlin's on the zip line, or Caitlyn is dancing, or
Speaker 1: Caitlyn is going to speak at a rally right now.
Speaker 1: And so I feel hopeful that I have made this
Speaker 1: profound connection with your hometown of Uvalde and to become
Speaker 1: closer to you, Monica and have this conversation with you.
Speaker 2: Keith.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for joining me on this
Speaker 1: episode of In the Thing. I so appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Keith.
Speaker 1: Beauchamp is an award winning filmmaker and monicam Mundo's Martinez
Speaker 1: is an award winning historian and associate professor at the
Speaker 1: University of Texas at Austin.
Speaker 2: And I'm Maria Noojosa. Also, Dear listener, be.
Speaker 1: Sure to check out our documentary with Frontline on PBS
Speaker 1: and the Texas Tribune. It's called After Uvalde, Guns, Grief
Speaker 1: and Texas Politics. And also be sure to check out
Speaker 1: our one hour special on Latino USA. It's a beautiful
Speaker 1: independent piece actually collaboration with Frontline and Futuru Investigates that
Speaker 1: airs on Friday, June second.
Speaker 2: It's called Uvalde Rising and Special.
Speaker 1: Thanks to our intrepid Futudo Investigates producer Sophia Sanchez for
Speaker 1: co producing this episode. Dear listener, go to Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: to rate and review us.
Speaker 2: Really helps.
Speaker 1: Remember you can listen to In the Think on all
Speaker 1: major podcast platforms. Check us out on the web at
Speaker 1: in Thethik dot org, follow us on Twitter and on Instagram,
Speaker 1: show like us on Facebook, Tell everyone you know to listen.
Speaker 1: And the thing is produced by Ner Saudi, Oscott Fernandez
Speaker 1: and our New York Women's Foundation Ignite fellow Daniella Dieo Garson.
Speaker 1: Our editorial director is Fernande Santos. Our audio engineering team
Speaker 1: is Stephanie LAbau, Julia Gruso, Gabrielle Abias and JJ Krubin.
Speaker 1: Our marketing manager is Luis Luna. The music you heard
Speaker 1: is courtesy of Not Captain CZK Records. Dear listener, again,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for listening. See you on the
Speaker 1: next one. Yes, lapproxima Bye.
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