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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session four thirty five of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after word from our sponsors. Welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: second episode of our Siblings sit Down series, where we're

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Speaker 1: exploring sibling relationships and all the factors that shape the

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Speaker 1: emotional dynamics created between them. Today, I'm pleased to be

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Speaker 1: joined by Tamra Hill, licensed clinical child and family therapist,

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Speaker 1: who has built an online platform by making mental health

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Speaker 1: information accessible to the masses. We're getting into questions like

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Speaker 1: what happens when siblings fall into familiar roles, how can

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Speaker 1: parents nurture healthy relationships among their children, and what can

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Speaker 1: adult siblings do to healed old wounds and strengthen their bonds.

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Speaker 1: With so many elements in the mix, no one set

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Speaker 1: of siblings has the same relationship as another. If something

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Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it

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Speaker 1: with us on social media using the TVG in session

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Speaker 1: or I join us. All are in our Patreon channel

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Speaker 1: to talk more about the episode. You can join us

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Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's

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Speaker 1: our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Today's camera, Ah, thank you for having me. Can you

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Speaker 1: start by telling us a little bit more about yourself

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Speaker 1: and your practice, Like, what is your practice looking like

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Speaker 1: these days? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I have tons of families right now in my practice,

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Speaker 2: so I'm seeing a little bit under two hundred people

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Speaker 2: a month coming into my office asking for family therapy.

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Speaker 2: I've always done children, teens, maybe families here and there,

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Speaker 2: but as of the past two years and a little

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Speaker 2: bit after the COVID time, I've been working with families

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Speaker 2: and trying to help them communicate better. There's tons of

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Speaker 2: sibling rivalry, tons of parental alienation. There is also custody battles,

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Speaker 2: and so my practice right now is fully family based

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Speaker 2: therapy and treatment at this time.

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Speaker 1: So that's so interesting. So I feel like kind of

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Speaker 1: historically in the field, family counseling was not something you

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Speaker 1: saw a lot happening, Like, of course, there were therapists

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Speaker 1: who were doing it, But it's sounding like there's a

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Speaker 1: real uptick, especially in your practice, and it sounds like

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Speaker 1: in particular after the pandemic, is there anything that you

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Speaker 1: can point to, I mean, beyond like the trauma that

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Speaker 1: we all experience in a pandemic. Are there particular themes

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Speaker 1: that you're seeing kind of related to a post pandemic

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Speaker 1: kind of life that are coming up for your families.

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Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I think the major theme that I'm seeing

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Speaker 2: right now is we didn't really know each other before

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Speaker 2: the pandemic. We were stuck together for so many months,

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Speaker 2: and now I realize I don't feel the same way

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Speaker 2: about you that I did when we didn't have to

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Speaker 2: be in lockdown. So that's kind of like a common

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Speaker 2: theme for my practice right now. It's how do we

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Speaker 2: build that loving relationship with our children? How do we

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Speaker 2: build that loving relationship between siblings or at least somehow

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Speaker 2: developed healthy skills after the pandemic. It just seemed like

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Speaker 2: the pandemic did something psychological to most families, and so

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Speaker 2: now they're just searching for treatment and options.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And we have been seeing more around

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Speaker 1: like sibling relationships, right. You know, I think there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of course in the field about the relationship you

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Speaker 1: have with your parents and how that, you know, really

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Speaker 1: leads to different things in your life. But I think

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Speaker 1: there's more focus on the sibling relationships now. And it

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Speaker 1: sounds like you are seeing a lot of siblings as

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Speaker 1: a part of your work. So talk to me about

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Speaker 1: like some of the common things that are coming up

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Speaker 1: in terms of sibling pairs or sibling dynamics in your work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. Currently I have I'm going to say maybe

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Speaker 2: about seven cases that are just about sibling rivalry, and

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Speaker 2: it's my sessions with them are mainly focused on better communication,

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Speaker 2: really trying to manage the internal desire to compete and

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Speaker 2: win some kind of favoritism in the eyes of parents. Also,

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Speaker 2: let's see is a big one for me right now,

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Speaker 2: and kids and siblings just trying to communicate even when

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Speaker 2: they're feeling like maybe the other sibling is the best one,

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Speaker 2: or maybe the other sibling is favored in mom and

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Speaker 2: dad's eyes. Trying to help those siblings communicate in a

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Speaker 2: healthy way and support each other and not try to

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Speaker 2: tear each other down. Very poor communication is another thing

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Speaker 2: that I'm dealing with. I'm not able to talk to

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Speaker 2: my sibling. I'm not able to get on the same

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Speaker 2: level with them and work through things. We fight. We

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Speaker 2: physically fight, we verbally fight, we ostracize each other, and

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Speaker 2: we can't even get along at home, much less in school.

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Speaker 2: So I'm seeing a lot of rivalry that happens in

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Speaker 2: the school system too, and siblings, if we're talking about

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Speaker 2: ADO lessons, they're in high school, they have different friend

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Speaker 2: groups and they don't engage with each other. It's like

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Speaker 2: they're kids that have never met each other before. And

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Speaker 2: that's a scary thing when you break it down.

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Speaker 1: And it does kind of feel like the language around

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Speaker 1: sibling rivalry has been kind of in the lexicon for forever, right,

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Speaker 1: And so is that a natural part of what you

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Speaker 1: would expect with sibling dynamics is that there will be

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Speaker 1: some kind of rivalry or are there specific factors that

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Speaker 1: impact whether, like there will be this sense of a

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Speaker 1: rivalry between siblings.

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Speaker 2: That's such a great question, and I get that question

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Speaker 2: all the time from parents. I really think it depends

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Speaker 2: on the risk factors within a family. So if we're

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Speaker 2: dealing with a family that has generational trauma, intergenerational trauma,

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Speaker 2: generational challenges in terms of poor communication, abusive behavior, domestic violence,

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Speaker 2: drug abuse, untreated or poorly treated mental illness, all of

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Speaker 2: those risk factors I think kind of sets up kids

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Speaker 2: to have a really hard time when they have a sibling.

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Speaker 2: So I would say most siblings are going to have

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Speaker 2: a pretty quote unquote normal relationship with each other if

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Speaker 2: the household is stable. But when we're dealing with an

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Speaker 2: unstable family dynamic, it kind of sets the kids up

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Speaker 2: in the family to have a sibling rivalry. Even research

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Speaker 2: on sibling rivalries suggests that if you have siblings who

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Speaker 2: are being parented wrong, or if you have siblings who

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Speaker 2: have permissive parents, which means they're not as firm in

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Speaker 2: terms of boundaries and rules, you're likely to run into

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Speaker 2: kids who are far beyond sibling rivalry. We're talking about

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Speaker 2: we need to get therapy because our kids are not

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Speaker 2: functioning cohesively. So yeah, I would say things are pretty

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Speaker 2: much normal rivalry until there's so many risk factors the

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Speaker 2: kid is not very well supported. Sibling rivalry is the

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Speaker 2: end result of that.

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Speaker 1: And it seems like Tom, like the sense of Ribberry

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Speaker 1: is like in some ways like a fight for independence

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Speaker 1: and like who am I in this family? Right? Like

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Speaker 1: everybody wants to be kind of seen and you know,

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Speaker 1: validated for who they are, And so it sounds like

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Speaker 1: that's what you're talking about in terms of like the

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Speaker 1: normal like who am I? And like how do I

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Speaker 1: differentiate myself? But what you're talking about seeing is something

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Speaker 1: that is beyond that, in terms of maybe jealousy or

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Speaker 1: something that is beyond just like I'm claiming my stake

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Speaker 1: to who I am in the family.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent. That's kind of the quote unquote normal road.

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Speaker 2: You know. I would say, the quote unquote abnormal road

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Speaker 2: would be I'm fighting my sibling and there's really no

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Speaker 2: reason for this. I'm just angry or I'm jealous or

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Speaker 2: you know, something of that nature. That's an issue.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So you talked about permissive parenting and kind of

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Speaker 1: like the lack of boundaries being one thing that might

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Speaker 1: impact whether there is like this increased rivalry. Are there

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Speaker 1: other things that parents are doing or should be on

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Speaker 1: the lookout for that might set up their children to

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Speaker 1: not have like maybe the strongest relationship.

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Speaker 2: I think language is key. Language is key. Sometimes when

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Speaker 2: I'm seeing an entire family first session, I'll hear the parents,

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Speaker 2: you know, unintentionally mentioned things that can kind of put

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Speaker 2: siblings in opposition forward each other. So things like, you know,

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Speaker 2: Billy's always been the smartest kid in the family. He

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Speaker 2: knows everything. You know, every time you turn around, He's

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Speaker 2: given us facts about certain things. He's just a wonderful kid.

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Speaker 2: Something like that kind of causes the other child in

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Speaker 2: the family to think, well, wait a minute, what about me.

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Speaker 2: Language is key, and I see that a lot in

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Speaker 2: family sessions. Even when a parent is just describing maybe

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Speaker 2: that siblings temperament or that siblings mental health challenges, it

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Speaker 2: can sound like the parent is putting one kid up

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Speaker 2: here and you know, the other kid down here. I

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Speaker 2: had a session a couple days ago with the family

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Speaker 2: that kind of dealt with this, and dad did not

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Speaker 2: mean to hurt the feelings of his son, but he

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Speaker 2: did say something like, you know, my brother's been the

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Speaker 2: smartest in this family. I was next to just as intelligent,

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Speaker 2: and my daughter is also highly intelligent. I mean, the

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Speaker 2: three of us we just click because we think the same. Well,

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Speaker 2: that left to sun out and so the son and

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Speaker 2: I had a lot of time to process how that

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Speaker 2: broke him down and how that hurt him. So language

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Speaker 2: is key, unintentional language, how you describe things as important

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Speaker 2: and talking about that other siblings mental and behavioral health problems,

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Speaker 2: the language there also needs to be carefully altered. So

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Speaker 2: language is key.

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Speaker 1: So what the recommendations would you give to parents around you? Know, like,

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Speaker 1: how do you balance that? Is it like if you're

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Speaker 1: offering a compliment for one, you want to also make

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Speaker 1: sure you're offering compliments for the others, Like how do

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Speaker 1: you balance that?

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Speaker 2: Oh that's so hard. I wish I had like a

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Speaker 2: clinical answer for that, Doctor Joe. I'm just going to

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Speaker 2: say this humbly. I don't know if I have the answer,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know if many therapists who work with

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Speaker 2: families have that answer. I think it may just depend

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Speaker 2: on the quote unquote temperature of the family. So if

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Speaker 2: you have a really vulnerable family where there's tons of

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Speaker 2: risk factors. There's anger, there's high conflict, there's untreated mental

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Speaker 2: health challenges. You want to be careful again with how

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Speaker 2: you're describing things and being careful with labels, maybe saying

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Speaker 2: something like, Billy's really good at A, B and C,

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Speaker 2: but so is Tommy. So like, I have two wonderful

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Speaker 2: kids kids, you know, they have different strengths. But Billy

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Speaker 2: knows how to do this, Timmy knows how to do that.

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Speaker 2: So maybe doing that can be a little bit helpful,

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Speaker 2: or just staying away from comparison altogether, I think that's

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Speaker 2: your safest bet. Yeah, So what.

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Speaker 1: Do we know about the sibling relationships and how they

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Speaker 1: form us into who we are? So again we talked

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Speaker 1: about you know, there's so much about like your parents

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Speaker 1: and your caregivers and how their responses to you impact

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Speaker 1: how you show up in relationships later. What about our

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Speaker 1: relationships with our siblings. What do we know about our

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Speaker 1: adult selves based on maybe our early lives with siblings.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, there's research that highly supports the idea

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Speaker 2: that the sibling relationship is the most significant relationship in

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Speaker 2: that child's life, that besides the parent relationship, the sibling

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Speaker 2: relationship is that one relationship where we learn how to interact,

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Speaker 2: we learn how to think and feel, and we also

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Speaker 2: learn how to be in relation to another person. So

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Speaker 2: if we're dealing with sibling rivalry and it doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: to be the kind of normal sibling rivalry that we're

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Speaker 2: used to, if we're talking about jealousy and competition and

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Speaker 2: really trying to hurt that other sibling and take their

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Speaker 2: identity or minimize them or be very condescending every chance

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Speaker 2: they get, that's going to set up that same pattern

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Speaker 2: of relationships for that sibling for the rest of their lives.

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Speaker 2: The same gender sibling is often the most important sibling.

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Speaker 2: So in other words, if you have a boy, the

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Speaker 2: brother is very significant according to research, in that child's life.

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Speaker 2: So if there's you know, issues in that relationship throughout

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Speaker 2: the development of that child or adolescent adult, relationships are

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Speaker 2: going to be just as problematic because that's how they've

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Speaker 2: learned to engage, that's how they have learned how to communicate.

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Speaker 2: So there's no communication in a healthy way. And so

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Speaker 2: as that individual grows older, they think it's okay to compete,

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Speaker 2: they think it's okay to be hurt or minimized or

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Speaker 2: you know, have this angry and hostile disposition to the world.

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Speaker 2: Their adult relationships are just going to be a little

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Speaker 2: bit rocky because that most important relationship has been rocky

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: And for people who maybe don't grow up with siblings

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Speaker 1: but have maybe close relationships with cousins, or you know,

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Speaker 1: many of us have extended families where kind of everybody

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Speaker 1: is like a play sister or something like that. Do

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Speaker 1: those relationships mimic what you see with siblings or is

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Speaker 1: that different?

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Speaker 2: I would say that's different. And honestly, we lack the

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Speaker 2: clinical research that can help us tease a part if

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Speaker 2: there's similarity or differences. Even in my preparation for my

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Speaker 2: own YouTube channel and for this conversation, I didn't see

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Speaker 2: much on children and a family and their extended family.

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Speaker 2: We're lacking the research, doctor Joy, and we need to

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Speaker 2: get that information because it's going to help us understand

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Speaker 2: the sibling relationship as well. So we're a little bit behind.

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Speaker 2: Just a little bit.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So, as I'm

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Speaker 1: listening to you talk, Tamra, I'm thinking about a conversation

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Speaker 1: we had early on in the podcast with doctor and

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Speaker 1: Louise Lockhart about like coole regulation, right, and how so

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Speaker 1: much of how our children show up in the world

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Speaker 1: is really based on how well we do regulating ourselves

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Speaker 1: and our own emotions. And so when you talk about

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Speaker 1: things like like favorite or is there a favorite child?

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Speaker 1: Or who's the problem chaw in the family? I think

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Speaker 1: so much of that does come from like what the

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Speaker 1: parents are saying, maybe consciously, but probably a lot of

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Speaker 1: it is subconscious. Can you talk about, like what kinds

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Speaker 1: of things parents need to be aware of so that

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Speaker 1: they are not playing into these favoritism kinds of conversations.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I think this is a very broad question,

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Speaker 2: so I'm going to mention a few things. It's a

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Speaker 2: really good question because sometimes families will come into session

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Speaker 2: and ask me, Hey, Taramar, how do I manage this dynamic?

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Speaker 2: I think just being aware again of language, being aware

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Speaker 2: of what's the temperament of my child, and do I

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Speaker 2: need to be careful with how I talk about what's

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Speaker 2: going on in their lives with the other siblings. So

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Speaker 2: I'll give you an example. It's kind of like, if

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Speaker 2: you have two adolescent daughters, you may not want to

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Speaker 2: highlight that the sixteen year old tends to be more

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Speaker 2: mature than the thirteen year old because the sixteen year

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Speaker 2: old had a better academic life, or had better friends,

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Speaker 2: or you know, they seem to manage their emotions better.

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Speaker 2: You want to be careful comparing the two and highlighting

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Speaker 2: that one child is inherently better than the other child. There,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think parents fall into this trap of

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Speaker 2: I'm closest to my daughter because my daughter is more

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Speaker 2: like me. I get that a lot in therapy as well.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes dads will say, you know, my son, Michael and

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Speaker 2: I we're just like this because we tend to be

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Speaker 2: the most similar. And because of that, the parent automatically

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Speaker 2: leans toward that child. So Dad may lean more towards Michael,

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Speaker 2: and just about everything punishments favoritism. How he showers that

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Speaker 2: son with love and affection, The PEP talks that he

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Speaker 2: gives that son, the eye contact and body language around

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Speaker 2: that son, all of the can send these nonverbal cues

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Speaker 2: to the other child that I love Michael, maybe a

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Speaker 2: little bit too much and maybe way more than I

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Speaker 2: love you also too. I see this in clinical settings

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Speaker 2: where one sibling will be the most difficult, why because

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Speaker 2: of a mental illness, because of a behavioral problem, because

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Speaker 2: of challenges academically, and that'll cause maybe one parent to

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Speaker 2: unintentionally lean towards the child that has little to no challenges,

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Speaker 2: and that leaves this child feeling like maybe I am defected,

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Speaker 2: Maybe I'm dysfunctional. Maybe I'm the black sheet. Maybe I'm

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Speaker 2: the scapegoat in the family. Everybody blames me because I'm

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Speaker 2: the problem here and my brother Michael isn't. So I'm

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Speaker 2: the devil, He's the angel. So parents have a really

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Speaker 2: important role within the sibling dynamic. How do I communicate

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Speaker 2: with a child that isn't necessarily doing as well as

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Speaker 2: maybe Michael is, And how do I help that other

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Speaker 2: child understand that even though you may have challenges, or

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Speaker 2: even though you're not as mature, even though something's going

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Speaker 2: on here, it doesn't mean Michael is better than you.

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Speaker 2: So really having some self awareness inside the parent, having

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Speaker 2: that self awareness of how do I treat both my kids?

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Speaker 2: Am I separating them? Am I punishing this one more

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Speaker 2: than the other? And if so? Why? So? That introspection

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Speaker 2: is key.

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Speaker 1: As we're talking, of course as adults, camera I'm reminded

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Speaker 1: that like children, of course, don't have the same reasoning

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Speaker 1: and like lodging that we do as adults, and they

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Speaker 1: come up with all kinds of fantastic stories about like

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Speaker 1: why something is happening in the family, and so, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think about something you just said. Maybe think about

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Speaker 1: like if there is a child who has maybe significant

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Speaker 1: health issues in a family, and there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: resources and energy that go to that child, and then

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Speaker 1: the other child may be feeling less special, right, so

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Speaker 1: all of these things that I think as parents and caregivers,

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Speaker 1: like you have to be mindful of that children. And

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Speaker 1: you're thinking like, oh, like they know that I love

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Speaker 1: them kind of thing, right, But they don't. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what kinds of stories they're creating about, like why

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Speaker 1: so and so get so much attention?

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's so so true. Could I mention a theory

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Speaker 2: I think that will kind of fit well here, doctor Joy,

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Speaker 2: you're probably well aware of this theory. It's the drama triangle.

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Speaker 2: And this triangle I will try to send you some

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Speaker 2: information so in case people who are watching can look

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Speaker 2: it up and kind of delve into that and use

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Speaker 2: it in the family dynamic. But the drama triangle is

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Speaker 2: pretty interesting because it happens in the midst of sibling relationships,

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Speaker 2: and it also happens in parent child relationships where there's

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Speaker 2: always a victim. In this triangle, there's a victim, there's

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Speaker 2: a persecutor. So that's the individual in the family who's

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Speaker 2: constantly creating the problems. They're pointing fingers, you know. They

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Speaker 2: tend to be the most in your face family member.

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Speaker 2: And then we also have the rescuer, who is that

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Speaker 2: individual who swoops in and saves the day. If we're

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Speaker 2: talking about siblings, sometimes the sibling who is the favored

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Speaker 2: tends to be the rescuer, and they tend to be

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Speaker 2: the hero in the sibling dynamic. They're the sibling that

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Speaker 2: has the better job, makes the most money, tends to

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Speaker 2: be the most mature, has gotten married first. That rescuer

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Speaker 2: child has done everything right. And so if there's a

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Speaker 2: family issue where there's a quote unquote victim that is

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Speaker 2: being ostracized, that's being bullied, that's being harmed, that good

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Speaker 2: sibling or that rescuer sibling swoops in to save that victim.

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Speaker 2: And then the child who is less favored, So the

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Speaker 2: other sibling tends to be the one who is blamed

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Speaker 2: for the problems in the family, so basically the black sheet.

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Speaker 2: So that's the triangle. Is an interesting dynamic because the

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Speaker 2: rescuing sibling swoops in saves the day, they get the

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Speaker 2: most love, affection, attention, support, even financial support according to research,

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Speaker 2: and the other sibling kind of stays in that black

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Speaker 2: sheep role and doesn't get a chance to maybe prove

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Speaker 2: themselves to that family dynamic. It's a sad triangle when

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Speaker 2: you look at it and you really delve in to

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Speaker 2: what it means.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for Shannon, and I had not heard about that,

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Speaker 1: so I'm interested to read more about that. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think you just bring up a great example that

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Speaker 1: makes me think about, like, well, what happens when these

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Speaker 1: kids then grow up?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: You know? So, I think a lot of people think,

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Speaker 1: in an ideal world, you have these very close relationships

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Speaker 1: with your siblings and your first best friends kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: But sadly we know that that is not always the case.

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Speaker 1: So what kinds of things impact the kind of relationship

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Speaker 1: you have with your sibling as an adult?

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm. I'm going to highlight jealousy and envy. That

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Speaker 2: tends to be really huge. Jealousy, I think in the

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Speaker 2: envy they're normal emotions, common emotion, so maybe I should

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Speaker 2: kind of separate those. For more of a morbid jealousy

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Speaker 2: or more of a pathological jealousy where the sibling who

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Speaker 2: is the jealous envious one of the other sibling, they

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Speaker 2: tend to be on this war path and research supports

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Speaker 2: this as well. If you have a sibling who's jealous

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Speaker 2: as a child, jealous as an adolescent, and it has

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Speaker 2: it wavered and then continues to be jealous and envious,

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Speaker 2: even though there's been therapy, there's been positive reinforcement, there's

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Speaker 2: been parenting alterations, whatever the case, If that child adolescent

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Speaker 2: continues that jealousy of the other sibling up into adulthood,

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Speaker 2: it's going to set that other sibling up for a

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Speaker 2: series of negative experiences because that jealous envious sibling is

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Speaker 2: really putting that other sibling in in a vulnerable position,

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Speaker 2: and that other sibling, the one who is envied, is

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Speaker 2: in that role and they're stuck and they don't know

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Speaker 2: how to get out. Sometimes can feel like a trap

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Speaker 2: because they want to have a good relationship with that

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Speaker 2: other sibling, but they can't do it because the jealous

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Speaker 2: sibling has slammed the door and said, you know what,

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Speaker 2: I don't like you because of AB and C, or

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Speaker 2: I don't you're not my kind of individual because of A,

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Speaker 2: B and C. And that puts that other sibling in

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Speaker 2: a place where they're most likely to have emotional voids.

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Speaker 2: They're most likely to get into abusive relationships because they

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Speaker 2: can't necessarily see the signs and the behaviors of some

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Speaker 2: thing's wrong in this relationship. And they are also more

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Speaker 2: likely to struggle in other areas of their lives. Academically,

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Speaker 2: you positions that they are pursuing in their career, They're

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Speaker 2: likely to have low self esteem and low feelings of

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Speaker 2: self efficacy. There's going to be a self fulfilling prophecy

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Speaker 2: with this sibling who is envieed. There's just so many

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Speaker 2: avenues that they can end up down and it's all

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Speaker 2: because of the sibling who has made life really difficult

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Speaker 2: all the way from childhood, adolescents into adulthood, a very

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Speaker 2: sad and depressing dynamic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know something we have not talked about that

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Speaker 1: I think is also a really important part of conversations

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about siblings is birth order. So there's

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Speaker 1: been so much, so much conversation, it feels like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe within the last two to three years around like

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Speaker 1: oldest daughters, right, Like we see a lot of like,

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Speaker 1: oh the oldest daughter and the means XYZ and my family.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk to us about birth order and like

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Speaker 1: what does that mean in the context of family dynamics?

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Speaker 2: Oh goodness. So the reason why I'm laughing, doctor Joy

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Speaker 2: is because I was just doing some research lesson on

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Speaker 2: birth order for my own video. So that's coming out

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Speaker 2: on siblings and I I'll say this first before I

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Speaker 2: get into birth order. Research cannot find a causal relationship

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Speaker 2: between birth order and how that child's life is going

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Speaker 2: to turn out, whether it's going to be positive or negative.

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Speaker 2: There's a association, but we don't understand the causal link necessarily.

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Speaker 2: Those are two different things. So birth order is interesting

434
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: because the older sibling automatically takes on that role of protector,

435
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 2: hero rescuer, you know, and parents interestingly automatically assigned to

436
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: that older sibling. And I'm this way in my own family.

437
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 2: I'll tell you that in a second. But that older

438
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 2: sibling tends to if you ask me, the parent tends

439
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: to have a higher expectation for that older sibling, no

440
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 2: matter whether or not that older sibling can hold up

441
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 2: the end of the bargain. So, in other words, that

442
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 2: older sibling may not be necessarily mature enough to guide

443
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: or to be the leader of the family. But just

444
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 2: because they're the firstborn, that expectation, that parent holds that

445
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: expectation rather high, and that eldest child just sometimes they

446
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: fold under that. Other times they succeed, but for the

447
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 2: most part, I think they kind of fall. Now I'll

448
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: give you an example my family. I have two brothers.

449
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: I'm the middle child. My younger sibling gets on my

450
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 2: last nerve. Okay, I'm gonna be honest with you that,

451
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 2: and he gets on my nerves because he plays that

452
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 2: role of baby. He's the last child, so he plays

453
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 2: that role of the birth order, role of the baby

454
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: in the family, and so he does things that are excused.

455
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: He's really not the one mom is looking at when

456
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: things need to get done. He's the one that kind

457
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: of receives while the older siblings kind of feel like

458
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 2: the slave. I'm the middle child, so I got a

459
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: lot of love and affection, but at the same time

460
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 2: I'm looked at as the sibling that is there to

461
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,959
Speaker 2: kind of hold the family and the siblings together. And

462
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 2: I think that has more to do with my gender.

463
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: It's more of a gender thing. You're the girl, you

464
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Doctor Joy, You're the girl, so

465
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 2: you know you're gonna hold the family together. You're gonna

466
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: be the thinker, the emotional one. And then of course

467
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: my older brother, he's the one kind of left the

468
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 2: nest very quickly. But I think he folded under the

469
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 2: stress of being the older sibling, and so for many

470
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 2: years he did not talk to my mom, and I

471
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 2: think there was a lot of resentment that he had

472
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: to be the older sibling who was kind of left

473
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: out of the equation when my mom had myself and

474
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 2: my younger sibling. Not intentionally, it was just birth order

475
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 2: and it happened that way. I think a lot of

476
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 2: older kids go on to feel resentment because maybe they

477
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,120
Speaker 2: were born at a time when mom and dad were youngest.

478
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: Maybe they were born at a time when mom and

479
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: dad didn't have the tools and the skills, and then

480
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 2: here comes the younger siblings and they're getting the best

481
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: of mom and dad. So I think older siblings they

482
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: have a huge calling, But I'm not so sure they

483
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: all stand up under the pressure. I'm starting to see

484
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 2: the older I get in my sibling dynamic, even working

485
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: with families who are going through this as well, I'm

486
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: starting to see that the older sibling needs sometimes the

487
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 2: most love, the most compassion, because a lot of them

488
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 2: feel like I had to leave, I had to spread

489
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: my wings, I had to become independent, and maybe a

490
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 2: little bit too soon.

491
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: So so many thoughts are running through my hands, Hammer

492
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: because you run off some excellent points. So one, I

493
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: think there's lots of conversation around like how every child

494
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: in a family gets a different set of parents, right,

495
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: so you know, the first child gets like the brand

496
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: new like what in the world are we doing, Like

497
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: we're just trying to keep this baby alive? Parents, And

498
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: then by the time you get to second, third, later

499
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: children like you have maybe a little bit better since

500
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: of you know what you're doing, and so you get

501
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: a different set of parents. And so I do think

502
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: it's really interesting when you talk to like sibling groups

503
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: that like some of the memories they have or their

504
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: experiences of parents are very different because you in all

505
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: got different sets of parents. I really appreciate that you

506
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,239
Speaker 1: brought up the whole. You are the middle child, but

507
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: you're the oldest daughter. Because I was gonna ask, is

508
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: there some gender piece around whether that oldest child is

509
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: a boy or a girl, you know, if we're using

510
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: kind of binary terms right, like I do think, at

511
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: least antcdotally, I don't know that there's any evidence that

512
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: the oldest daughters. It feels like, even if they do buckle,

513
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: there is more of a sense of like, you are

514
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: expected to do this, whereas maybe oldest boy children are

515
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: kind of like they can make more mistakes or whatever,

516
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: but like oldest girls are kind of just expected to

517
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: have it all together.

518
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: Oh my god, yes, oh my god. My So my

519
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,239
Speaker 2: mom had a I'm not gonna say it's not a

520
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: mini stroke, but it's like a left hemispheric stroke where

521
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: the right side of her body because of a blood

522
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 2: clot and because of high blood pressure, just stopped working.

523
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 2: So she had a stroke in February. It was a

524
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: huge traumatic situation for myself and my siblings. But I

525
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 2: think for the first time in my life, I saw

526
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: birth order play out because as the middle daughter and

527
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,239
Speaker 2: the younger brother and older brother, they were there as

528
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: much as I was. But as the middle daughter, I

529
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: was expected to talk to the doctors, to comfort mom,

530
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: to caregive, to fix the dinners, for my siblings, to

531
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: hug them and tell them it's going to be okay,

532
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: to hold their hand, even down to my brother for example,

533
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: even down to my brother needed a work excuse for

534
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: coming to the hospital. He's like, I don't know what

535
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 2: to do, and so I said, I'll do it for you.

536
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: So I recognize for the first time that I'm dependent

537
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: on all the time. And it's because I'm the middle girl.

538
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 2: I cannot take that role of sitting back and relaxing

539
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: in a way. I've been expected to just step up.

540
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of females siblings.

541
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: Go through that. So when we see like high profile,

542
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: super successful sibling pairs like a Beyonce in a Solange

543
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: or Venus and Serena Williams, how do you make sense

544
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: of like this kind of super successful identity and like

545
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: shared ambition that kind of comes out of one household.

546
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: Like what are your thoughts about that?

547
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: When I think of Venus and Serena, They're awesome, Like

548
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: they're just wonderful, even Beyonce and her sister. I my

549
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: experience in treating sisters who are both successful. I think

550
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: they share the power in the family. But again, because

551
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 2: they're females, I think they're kind of leaned on, maybe

552
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: more so than two sons in the family. The siblings

553
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: who are females, they're kind of looked at, and especially

554
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: if they're successful as two wonder womans and the family

555
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: boys are not looked at in that way for some reason.

556
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: I think, again it's just the gender thing. It's females,

557
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: and if they're successful, they're really leaned on within the family.

558
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 2: There can also be some jealousy between them and competition.

559
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: You know, maybe the Serena Williams and a sister dynamic,

560
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: a family dynamic is the one who is the most

561
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: praised because she's married and has a daughter or now

562
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: two children, and she's this powerful female model. Maybe the

563
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: venus of the family who isn't married yet on our way,

564
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: but isn't married yet isn't really as powerful until she

565
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 2: says I do so. I think there's some dynamics there too,

566
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: But for the most part, if you have two successful

567
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: females or sisters in a family, that is some kind

568
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: of power dynamic.

569
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: And you know, Mestina Knowles has been very publican talking

570
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: about how she started therapy with the girls very early on,

571
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: because you know, Beyonce was already kind of on her

572
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: way to kind of being successful and really wanted to

573
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: make sure that Solanja had a place to talk about

574
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: that and that you know, they could really kind of

575
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: get ahead of any issues. And it feels like that

576
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: is something because you know, at least they're talking about

577
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: it right, like they are able to kind of put

578
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: these issues on the table, which I think is more

579
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: than maybe some families will do. And then you realize

580
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: that there is all this jealousy in inv like you mentioned.

581
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm.

582
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I'm not sure that we as a field of

583
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 2: psychology have the research there to really treat these kind

584
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: of families. So it's like, what's the theoretical orientation, what's

585
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 2: the road we need to go down with these siblings

586
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: when it comes to that sibling dynamic. Do we use

587
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 2: Bowinian therapy, you know? Do we use structural family therapy,

588
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: do we use cognitive behavior therapy? Just what is needed

589
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 2: as a context to treat these families. I'm not sure

590
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 2: we have the research, doctor Joy, unless you know of something,

591
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: but I die that exactly we're lacking and we need

592
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: we need a lot more research.

593
00:33:53,400 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, more from our conversation after the break, we've talked

594
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 1: a lot about you know, like I think family therapy

595
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: in terms of children in the family, But what does

596
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: it look like Tamera to work on like healing sibling

597
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 1: wounds as adults. So let's say there is a pair

598
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: of siblings that comes to you and they say, you know,

599
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: we didn't have the best relationship as children, but we

600
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: really want to have a stronger relationship. Now, what does

601
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 1: it look like to heal those wounds as adults.

602
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely, when I get these families in my practice, the

603
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 2: first step I want them to take, and I often

604
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 2: encourage them to take, is to start fresh. Saying goodbye

605
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 2: to that history is important because if we're still holding

606
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 2: on to what happened back then, then it kind of

607
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 2: cuts us off from closing that door and moving ahead

608
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: in a healthy way. Seeing each other as adults is

609
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: also important, so perception of reality. There's often when it

610
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: comes to sibling relationships, there's often a distortion of reality

611
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 2: in terms of favoritism and who was the best child,

612
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 2: and who was the most successful, and who was the

613
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: most praised. A sibling may feel like where you were

614
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 2: mom and Dad's favorite, and the so called a favorite

615
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: may say, no, you are mom and Dad's favorite. So

616
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: there's some distortion of reality there. We have to kind

617
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: of shut that door, slam that door, lock it up,

618
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 2: and say, Okay, that's not important. Let's focus on the

619
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 2: now and move ahead. Let's see each other as adults.

620
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 2: Let's figure out how do we connect as adults. What

621
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 2: is it that we need as adults? What do we

622
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: need to do to become close knit individuals in this

623
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 2: scary world. Once you can do that, I think you

624
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 2: can then move into skill building. So how should we

625
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 2: be communicating? How often should we be communicating? You know,

626
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 2: should I call you if you cross my mind or

627
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 2: if I feel you on my heart for the day?

628
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 2: What do I need as your sibling to give you

629
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: the love that I couldn't give you when we were younger?

630
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 2: What places of your life can I impact? Can I

631
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: play a powerful role so that we can rebuild our

632
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: relationship and be the strong siblings that we should have

633
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: been when we were younger? So staying in contact with

634
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: that sibling understanding I can throw and hear the love

635
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 2: languages of your sibling. Do they need your physical affection.

636
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 2: Do they need an email? Do they need a text message?

637
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 2: What is it that they need from you? So figuring

638
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: that out and then again slamming that door on history

639
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: and starting over and starting fresh. It's it's humility. It's

640
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: saying I love you sis, or I love you brother,

641
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 2: and I want us to start fresh and try to

642
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 2: get along for once in our lives. And what does

643
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,720
Speaker 2: that consist of? So being inquisitive, being humble, being modest,

644
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: being ready to move forward.

645
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: So it sounds like you're saying you would not go

646
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: too much into this, like okay, let's unpack this. Who

647
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: was the favorite? Or like you got preferential treatment from

648
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: mom and dad and I didn't, Like we're really wanting

649
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: to kind of just move past that and start almost

650
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: with a fresh relationship as opposed to really kind of

651
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 1: undoing or like trying to make peace with the relationships

652
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: that we maybe had asked it.

653
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 2: I can see disaster there, Like you're gonna have a

654
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 2: few sessions where you're gonna be fighting and out or

655
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: there's gonna be some kind of well remember this and

656
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 2: remember that. I think it's best to just start fresh.

657
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 2: And if there's some major traumas, maybe going back to

658
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 2: look at that, so like if there was child physical abuse,

659
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 2: if there was sexual abuse in the family, if there

660
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 2: was PTSD as a result of a tragedy, then maybe

661
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 2: you can go back and pull that into the now.

662
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 2: But I really think we should start fresh and move

663
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: forward from there.

664
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: You've already given us a little bit of an example

665
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: in your own life with you know, your mom's health conditions.

666
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 1: But what kinds of things would you offer to people,

667
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: especially as you know many of us have aging parents

668
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 1: and thinking about like caregiving among siblings. Can you talk

669
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: about like how how sibling relationships evolve, and like what

670
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: kinds of conversations to have with your siblings as you

671
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: are talking about caregiving for aging parents.

672
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, that's such a great question, doctor Joy.

673
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: That's about five or six episodes, because there's so much

674
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 2: to talk about. I think the most important thing when

675
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 2: it comes to caretaking is really looking at the sibling

676
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: dynamic and having a frank conversation who is that sibling,

677
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 2: Who is that child that mom and dad looks up to,

678
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 2: or looks to, or goes to or feel safest with,

679
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 2: that can make the decisions. This is not about who's better,

680
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: who's greater, who's more competent. It's more so about who

681
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 2: is that child who can help mom or dad or

682
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: both feel comfortable in aging, feel comfortable in caretaking. You know,

683
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: when my mom had her struck, my older sibling, my

684
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 2: older brother, he knew that he could step in and support,

685
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: But then he also knew that my mom tended to

686
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 2: trust me more because I was the female. I was

687
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 2: the one who understood the women issues. I was the

688
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 2: one who understood those deep conversations only my mom and

689
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 2: I could have. Doesn't mean she didn't love her son,

690
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: doesn't mean my older brother is incompetent. But the dynamic

691
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 2: made it so that I had to be the one

692
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 2: to step up, and I was the one that did

693
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 2: most of the work, most of the talking to the doctors,

694
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 2: most of the advanced directive's work, most of the power

695
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 2: of attorney work. It's important to be honest and not

696
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 2: allow your ego to get in the way when you're caregiving,

697
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 2: because I think once your ego gets the way, your

698
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: mind's gonna put you in a track because you're going

699
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 2: to start thinking, well, they love him more, they love

700
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 2: her more, or they think I'm incompetent, or they don't

701
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 2: trust me. Being aware of the fact that it isn't

702
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 2: about who's the best, It's about mom or dad or both,

703
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 2: and how do we care for them, how do we

704
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,280
Speaker 2: push them forward, how do we get them the things

705
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: that they need? Who do they trust the most. That's

706
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: a really hard road to go down because you're going

707
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: to have to do a lot of self examination, and

708
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 2: you may feel a little bit hurt. Yeah, you may

709
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 2: feel a little bit hurt, but I think keeping in mind,

710
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 2: we're in this together. We have to help mom or

711
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 2: dad or both, and we need the strongest sibling to

712
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 2: step up and take the lead role. And I'm going

713
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 2: to get behind my sibling and support. My older brother

714
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 2: got behind me and just support it. And I love

715
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: that when I couldn't do something, he was right there

716
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 2: to just kind of jump in and save the day,

717
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 2: or he was there to back me up. And so

718
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: figuring out those pieces of the puzzle is going to

719
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 2: be very very significant when it comes to caregiving. Who

720
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: is that main person who can be there to back

721
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 2: up and support and who can be there to just

722
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,919
Speaker 2: kind of take the business part of caregiving dynamic where

723
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 2: you're going to have to work together. It's a team

724
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: approach rather than an approach that has that favorite sibling

725
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: or that best person in the forefront. It's a team approach.

726
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: How do we fit the pieces together here so we

727
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: can say we can help, we can support.

728
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this feels like one of those conversations that

729
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 1: depending on what the sibling dynamic is, right, like if

730
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: there are all these unresolved issues about like who was

731
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: the favorite, right, or if we have not made peace

732
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 1: with all of this, it feels like this could be

733
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: like a very difficult thing to talk about, like who's

734
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: going to be like the spokesperson, maybe who's going to

735
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: take more of the financial burden? You know, like it

736
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: feels like there's a lot that could go wrong, so

737
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: to speak. An these conversations depending on what the relationship

738
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: is like with your sibling.

739
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 2: Yes, oh my god. Yes, Especially when you're talking about

740
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 2: like executors of an estate or you're talking about a

741
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 2: power of attorney or who's going to be managing all

742
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 2: the business parts of the puzzle, that can be very intimidating.

743
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 2: And for other siblings, they may feel like we're going

744
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 2: to be pushed to the side. We're not going to

745
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 2: get our inheritance. We're not going to be treated fairly.

746
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: We're not going to be able to make a life

747
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 2: or death decision on mom or dad. So you know,

748
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: that dynamic in and of itself is just really intimidating

749
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,439
Speaker 2: for most siblings. There's trauma there too.

750
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you know, thinking about We've had so many

751
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 1: incredible guests on the podcast, and we talk with the

752
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: death doula who also works with families, right, So it

753
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 1: feels like using some services like that could also be

754
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: good to bring in, especially if there are kind of

755
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: tricky dynamic. Somebody who can come in and say, Okay,

756
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 1: who's gonna do this, you know, and really can get

757
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: people on the same page.

758
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 2: I agree, that's really fantastic. I didn't think of that.

759
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 2: You brought something up that I need to kind of

760
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 2: store in the back of my mind, doctor Joy. It's

761
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 2: awesome to have somebody like that that can just hold

762
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: your hand and walk you through this, right, no, right, yeah.

763
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: So this conversation is going to be coming out closer

764
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: to the holidays camera, and so I am also wondering

765
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: for people who are maybe don't have the best relationships,

766
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: they're navigating kind of tough sibling relationships. What advice do

767
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: you have about navigating the holiday season.

768
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: M oh geez. I think it just depends on the dynamics.

769
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,760
Speaker 2: So if you're a family member who has contemplated going

770
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 2: no contact, or you have been no contact, I think

771
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 2: it's important to just decide how am I going to communicate?

772
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: How am I going to navigate this? If somebody reaches

773
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:27,720
Speaker 2: out to me, am I going to respond? If somebody

774
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 2: sends me a gift to be a mail, am I

775
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 2: going to send it back to them? Am I going

776
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 2: to say thank you? Am I going to call them?

777
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: Am I going to go to an event? Or not?

778
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,359
Speaker 2: If you're not grappling with the no contact issue, I

779
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: think if you just have a dysfunctional or toxic or

780
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 2: unhealthy kind of family dynamic, it's important to number one,

781
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 2: have coping skills if you're going to deal with family

782
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: members who are difficult. So figure out what do I

783
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,439
Speaker 2: need to do. Do I need to show up really

784
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 2: early and leave within fifteen minutes of getting there? Do

785
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 2: I need to hug everybody, say Merry Christmas? Are happy things,

786
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 2: get out of there? Or do I sit with them

787
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,479
Speaker 2: and just not say a lot, just engage and kind

788
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 2: of fill around for where I need to be or

789
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 2: not be. Figuring out what your role is and how

790
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 2: to manage your role within that family dynamic or sibling

791
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 2: dynamic is important because if there's sibling rivalry that's been unresolved,

792
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 2: if there's toxicity within the family dynamic, you want to

793
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,359
Speaker 2: make sure that you stay in the outskirts of that.

794
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: So again, coping skills, how long you're going to stay,

795
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 2: what you're going to talk about, not talk about, what's

796
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 2: off limits, how to set healthy boundaries and finding that

797
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 2: point person, should I stay near Grandma half the time

798
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 2: that I'm visiting, you know, should I support in the

799
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 2: kitchen and just stay out of the deep conversations in

800
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,399
Speaker 2: the living room. So just having a plan beforehand and

801
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 2: you know, humbly and modestly walking through that whole thing.

802
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: I don't think you can really prepare. You kind of

803
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 2: have to have a little bit of a plan and

804
00:44:58,320 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: then see how it goes from there.

805
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that that's always the best strategy, right

806
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,919
Speaker 1: because you don't know like what unknowns are gonna pop

807
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: off during the holidays. But having a plan of you know,

808
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: you know your family right, like you know specifically how

809
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,399
Speaker 1: things go, and so having a plan of how long

810
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: you're going to stay, who are you going to talk to,

811
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: what kinds of things are awful limits. I think you

812
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:18,879
Speaker 1: bring up some excellent points there.

813
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, it has saved me in the past.

814
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. So when you think about like the clients that

815
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,959
Speaker 1: you've worked with, or just the research that you've read,

816
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: or you know, things you've engaged with, what kinds of

817
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: things do you think are like some of the secrets

818
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,240
Speaker 1: to sibling relationships that are really strong.

819
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: I would say we tend to not look at the

820
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:45,240
Speaker 2: fact that humility is key. I think sometimes in sibiling relationships,

821
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 2: if you're feeling like that other sibling is better than

822
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 2: you or smarter than you, or they're getting favoritism, and

823
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,919
Speaker 2: even when you don't see that happening, you don't feel

824
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 2: that way. Just having that sibling relationship, having humility to

825
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: kind of keep you and another sibling grounded is key.

826
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 2: And I'll use myself as an example again, if I

827
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 2: weren't humble towards my older sibling, I think we'd have

828
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 2: a really hard time. Because number one, I'm a psychotherapist

829
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: and I study the mind, and I studied the science

830
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: of people, and so he's always guarded, like are you

831
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 2: reading me? But addressing our differences in a humble way

832
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: and loving him in a humble way, taking off my

833
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 2: therapist's hat, thrown it way over there, and just being

834
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 2: that humble sibling in need of our older brother has

835
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 2: really taken us a very long way. Of siblings, we

836
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 2: get along now, I think, more than we had when

837
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: we were adolescents. My brother's twelve years older than me,

838
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 2: so you know, when I was ten and he was

839
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,439
Speaker 2: like twenty one twenty two, we didn't mesh very well.

840
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 2: So now that we're both adults, life has changed us

841
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 2: and experience has changed us. And so my approach to

842
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 2: him is just in a humble way. And that's what

843
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 2: keeps us really really together. When I'm doing clinical work

844
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:05,439
Speaker 2: with siblings, Modest humility, open communication, apologizing when you've done

845
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 2: something wrong, and offering that unconditional love and support goes

846
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 2: a very long way. Loving your sibling without those strings

847
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 2: attached means so so much, and I think we we

848
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 2: fail to recognize that those things are significant. They can

849
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 2: take you a long way and your relationship with your sibling.

850
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that, tamra I think that

851
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 1: will be very helpful for lots of siblings and sibling

852
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: relationships that may be listening to our podcast. So let

853
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: us know where can we stay connected with you, Tamra.

854
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: What is your website and your YouTube channel? Where can

855
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: people find more from you?

856
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. By the way,

857
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,839
Speaker 2: doctor Droy, this was great. You can find me on

858
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 2: my YouTube channel. I talk a lot about these issues.

859
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 2: You can also find me at www dot anchoredinnowledge dot com.

860
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 1: That's my website and is your YouTube channel? Your name?

861
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:57,839
Speaker 2: It is, yes, So if you go to YouTube, type

862
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 2: in Tamorhill Therapist dot pop rate them perfect.

863
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include that in the show notes.

864
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending some time with us today.

865
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad tamer was able to join us for

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Speaker 1: today's conversation. To learn more about her and her work,

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00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for

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00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot com slash Session four thirty five, And don't

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00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: forget to text this episode to two of your girls

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00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 1: right now and tell them to check it out. Did

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00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: you know that you could leave us a voicemail with

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00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 1: your questions and suggestions for the podcast. If you have

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00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: books or movies you'd like us to review, or have

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00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: thoughts about topics you'd like us to discuss, drop us

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00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black

878
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We

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00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking

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00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory

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00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget

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00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: to follow us over on Instagram at Therapy for Black

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00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 1: Girls and come on over and join us in our

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00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: Patreon channel at community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot

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00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:04,439
Speaker 1: com for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and more.

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Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indie Chubu, and

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00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:12,879
Speaker 1: Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all

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00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look

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00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.

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Speaker 1: Take good care,