1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: Combe Conger, give us a comic comb. 2 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 2: This is Maria Aginda, an indigenous woman in Ecuador, singing 3 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 2: about the damage that oil companies have done to her community. 4 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:23,279 Speaker 3: She was the lead. 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 2: Plaintiff in the case against Texaco and then Chevron in Ecuador. 6 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 2: It's usually referred to as the Aginda Case after her. 7 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 2: In the decades since the case began, there have been 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 2: various attempts alternately to lionize and discredit her, to cast 9 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: her as a victim of the oil companies or as 10 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 2: a pawn of the plaintiff's attorneys. There is a mountain 11 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 2: of situations like this in this case, where one side 12 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 2: says one thing, the other side says the exact opposite thing, 13 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 2: and there's no way that both could be true. These 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 2: sorts of things started to really pile up in two 15 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 2: thousand and eight, five years after the case had initially 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: kicked off again in Ecuador. 17 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 3: Basically, to close a pit require eight different steps. 18 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 2: This is Ricardo rays Vega, who led Chevron's legal team 19 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 2: in Ecuador on this case. In this video with lots 20 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 2: of cheesy sound effects, he's explaining the steps that Texico 21 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 2: took back in the nineteen nineties to remediate its drill 22 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 2: sites in Ecuador. 23 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 3: You had to take the oil out, you had to 24 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 3: clean the sludge. You had to freak the water and 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 3: take the water out, but you had to pass tests 26 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 3: of the water. You had to solidify the basis. Then 27 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 3: you had to put new dirt and revegetate. 28 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: Around the same time that the case against Chevron was 29 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 2: filed in Ecuador, in two thousand and three, the government 30 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: of Ecuador filed a criminal complaint against Raisvega and another 31 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 2: lawyer working for Chevron on the case, Rodrigo pees Paladis. 32 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: The complaint alleged that the two had falsified documents around 33 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: Texaco's remediation work. You might recognize pees Paladis's name from 34 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: episode two. He was the Texico attorney meeting with the 35 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 2: president at his beach house to discuss the company's troubles 36 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 2: back in nineteen ninety four. In two thousand and three, 37 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 2: the government was questioning whether the nineteen ninety eight document 38 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: releasing Texico of all future liability for its operations in 39 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 2: the country was the product of fraud. That complaint was 40 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 2: thrown out in two thousand and six for lack of evidence, 41 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: and then refiled in two thousand and eight. At that point, 42 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 2: Viga and Paladis were indicted for conspiracy to fraudulently certify 43 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 2: Texico's cleanup. Chevron says this was all rigged up by 44 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 2: the plaintiffs and points to it as a clear indication 45 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: that the government and the court's under President Rafael Correa 46 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 2: were in cahoots with the plaintiffs, that there was no 47 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 2: way they could get a fair trial in Ecuador. Here's 48 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 2: Randy Mastro, an attorney who's been working on this case 49 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 2: for Chevron since two thousand and nine. 50 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 4: He got Ecuadorian authorities, without any basis whatsoever, to bring 51 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 4: criminal charges against two of the old Texico lawyers who 52 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 4: were involved in negotiating the releases. When Texico left the 53 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 4: country in the early nineties, those two lawyers faced criminal charges. 54 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 4: They couldn't even travel. One of them was had to 55 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 4: leave family in Ecuador, all right, on bogus criminal charges. 56 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 4: They had done nothing wrong. 57 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: The he in that sentence is Donziger, and it's striking 58 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: how much Mastro's description of what happened to these lawyers 59 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: in Ecuador matches how Donziger describes his situation today. 60 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 5: I cannot travel, I don't have a passport. 61 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 6: I cannot leave my apartment. 62 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: This kind of he said, He said, has going on 63 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: for years in this case, with each side calling out 64 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: the tactics of the other, each side trying to get 65 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: the other to flinch. In an outtake from a documentary 66 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: about the case, Donziger talks about this dynamic between the 67 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: legal teams. 68 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 5: We have to keep pushing on all fronts at all times. 69 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 6: That's simple, all fronts at all times. 70 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 5: Push, push, push. It's just a matter of force. It's 71 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 5: a pure force. Who can put the most pressure and 72 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 5: who can resist. It's just like all this bullshit about 73 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 5: the law on facts. You know, Yeah, that factors into 74 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 5: it because that affects the level of force. But in 75 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 5: the end of the day, it is about brute force. 76 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 5: Who can apply the pressure and who can withstand the pressure, 77 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 5: and can you get them to the breaking point. It's 78 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 5: the only way to litigate a case against a powerful 79 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 5: company on behalf of people who. 80 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 2: Have no how that pushing was happening in the legal sphere. 81 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 2: Of course, as the case dragged on, each side accused 82 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 2: the other of obstruction and delay tactics, but both sides 83 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 2: were also meeting with judges and playing politics, both in 84 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: the US and in Ecuador, and the case was really 85 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: playing out in the press. By two thousand and eight 86 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: and two thousand and nine, the plaintiffs seemed to be 87 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: winning on all fronts. Welcome back to Drilled Season five, 88 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 2: La Lucha and Lunga. If you haven't listened to the 89 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: first three episodes, you're going to need to do that 90 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 2: for this one to make any sense. Today we're going 91 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 2: to get into how this case played out in the 92 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: press and how that played into the verdict in Ecuador. 93 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: All of that coming up right after this quick break. 94 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: In twenty nineteen, the Washington Post reported on the remarkable 95 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 2: case of a woman who'd spoken out to make sure 96 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: that the man who sexually assaulted her was brought to justice. 97 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 2: The post new investigative podcast explores everything that happened after. 98 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: It's called Canary. The Washington Post investigates. You may have 99 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 2: seen their cover art in the podcast apps I Love It. 100 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: Canary is a podcast about what happened when that unusual 101 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 2: public warning connected to women, and how that warning led 102 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: to a devastating allegation about a powerful man in the 103 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: DC criminal justice system. You can find Canary the Washington 104 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 2: Post investigates right now, wherever you get in your podcasts. 105 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: In two thousand and seven, William Languish was getting ready 106 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 2: to run a big feature in Vanity Fair on the 107 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 2: case against Chevron in Lago Agrio. He had done his homework. 108 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 2: He'd gone to the town and to the remediation sites. 109 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,679 Speaker 2: He'd met with various scientists, He'd talked to the lawyers 110 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: on both sides. The last thing he needed was responses 111 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: from Chevron to a list of technical questions. 112 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 7: One of the list of questions that I assembled with 113 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 7: Donsker's help, very technical ones. There were sites specific how 114 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 7: the remediation went and then what the findings were during 115 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 7: the sort of opposing sample sampling that was done during 116 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 7: the court case. They said that they wanted to talk 117 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 7: to me, and they wanted me to come. I said, look, 118 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 7: I'm happy to talk to you, but only if you 119 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 7: answer those questions first. 120 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 2: Seven years later, those questions became a weapon that Chevron 121 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: used to question Languish's journalistic integrity, mainly because he asked 122 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: Donziger for his input on them, which frankly is a 123 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: little weird, but Languish explained that he needed Donziger's input 124 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: on some of the more technical questions for accuracy, and 125 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: that he was hoping Donziger could help him freeze the 126 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: questions in such a way that Chevron would feel more 127 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: compelled to answer at any rate. Here's what happened as 128 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 2: he was working on the story. 129 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 7: Answer those questions yes or no, tell me what your 130 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 7: response is, and if you answer the questions, I'm very 131 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 7: happy became at that point. For they never, of course 132 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 7: answered the questions. They were very specific questions. Yeah, and 133 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 7: then they went after Conde to asked, but they had 134 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 7: Grayton Carter and Graydon Carter had balls. 135 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 2: Graydon Carter, of course, was the longtime editor of Vanity Fair. 136 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 7: Those are the days when it was kind of the 137 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 7: last years of Braydon Carter being like, don't mess with 138 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 7: Braidon Carter. So they when the threat of lawsuit came in, 139 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 7: when Chevron started pulling that stuff and threatening, you know, 140 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 7: basically saber rattling, heat it up to it, and we 141 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 7: went through We did go through a verification process. The 142 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 7: piece was in no sense affected by that process. There 143 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 7: was absolutely no censorship of any kind. But what did 144 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 7: happen is that I in that piece had lines that 145 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 7: were intentionally surreal and facetious. Anything it wasn't absolutely factual 146 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 7: had to leave. So the effect of that on the 147 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 7: piece at the time, I thought that basically dulled the 148 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 7: piece down, like, who the hell wants to read this thing? 149 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 7: It's as dull if it has no life to it anymore, 150 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 7: And then maybe you saiveryone had that effect, although recently, 151 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 7: and because of the Donziger's current troubles, saying maybe six 152 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 7: months ago, I read the piece again, I think that's 153 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 7: a pretty damn good piece. Actually it wasn't as bad 154 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 7: as I thought it was at the time. 155 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 2: That piece triggered an uptick in media attention on the case, 156 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,719 Speaker 2: which kept building in two thousand and eight. Then in 157 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 2: April that year, the two Ecuadorians who'd been lead eating 158 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 2: a lot of the work on the ground, Luis Giansa, 159 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: who we met in episode two, and Pablo Fajardo, were 160 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: awarded the prestigious Goldman Environmental Prives. 161 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 8: Unas Tarvis control stodas Hsi mass in his semi processway 162 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 8: formsion ilucha parechos aravida on tano jalla Housticia. 163 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 2: I happened to be living in San Francisco at that 164 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: time and was actually at this awards ceremony. I remember 165 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: Luis and Pablo getting a standing ovation from the crowd. 166 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 2: This was happening right in Chevron's backyard, and they weren't 167 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 2: super pleased about it. They took out a full page 168 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 2: ad in the San Francisco Chronicle calling Fajardo and Yanza frauds, 169 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: but it didn't seem to work. The press continued to 170 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 2: stack up in favor of the plaintiffs. 171 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 3: Now we want to go to Ecuador, where an epic 172 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 3: lawsuit hits an American oil giant against a group of 173 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 3: Indians from the Amazon rainforest and environmental activists. 174 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 9: We turned out to Chevron oil giant based in California 175 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 9: that's being accused of promoting geopolitical blackmail and its effort 176 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 9: to stave awful lawsuit accusing it of contamidating the Ecuadoran 177 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:11,479 Speaker 9: Amazon rainforest. 178 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 2: It's been many years now since residents of eggs. In response, 179 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: Chevron amped up its pr and lobbying efforts. Its lobbyists 180 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: began pushing against a trade deal that would benefit Ecuador, 181 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 2: and in an email dated September two thousand and eight, 182 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,599 Speaker 2: various Chevron pr folks are going back and forth with 183 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 2: one of their external publicists, a guy named Chris Guidez, 184 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 2: who at the time was with the firm Helen Knowlton, 185 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: about a report that they're preparing the cast doubt on 186 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 2: the Equadorian plaintiffs and on some of the evidence that 187 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: they've presented in this case. They're also cracking jokes about 188 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: not wanting to eat anything that comes out of the 189 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 2: water in Lago Agrio. A lot of the report that 190 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 2: the pr team is working on and talking about in 191 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 2: these emails seems to focus on the science in the case. 192 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 2: As we heard last time, it's common in Ecuador for 193 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: both plaintiffs and defendants to commission their own expert reports 194 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 2: and submit those to the court, and both sides did. 195 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 2: The plaintiffs hired a US firm called Stratus Consulting. Here's 196 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 2: one of their experts, Douglas Beltman, talking to sixty minutes. 197 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 6: It's a disgrace. 198 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 10: They treated Ecuador like a trash heap. 199 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 6: Hey with those stream here. 200 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: It's Doug Beltman worked for the EPA on super fun 201 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,959 Speaker 2: sites in the US. He's now the scientific expert for 202 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 2: the people suing Chevron. 203 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 7: Are you saying that. 204 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 3: Texico never could have gotten away with this in the 205 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 3: United States. 206 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 10: Oh, absolutely not. It wouldn't have happened in the United States, 207 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 10: and if it had happened, they wouldn't have gotten away 208 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 10: with leaving it here for thirty years. 209 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 2: And here is a Chevron appointed expert, Pedro Alvarez, professor 210 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 2: of Civil and Environmental engineering at Rice University. 211 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 11: When Techaco left Ecuador, the site that it operated a 212 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 11: would consider represented a relatively safe scenario for with regards 213 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 11: to potential impacts to human health, both because of the 214 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 11: measures that they took to contain and clean up any contamination, 215 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 11: and because of the nature of the contaminants that have 216 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 11: very little mobility and therefore little probability to reach a 217 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 11: potential receptor. 218 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,599 Speaker 12: On the charge of lasting environmental damage. 219 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 11: That is a vastly exaggerated charge that is unsupported by 220 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 11: the evidence. 221 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 2: You can see why the judge might want a report 222 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 2: from an independent expert. The court appointed a guy named 223 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 2: Richard Cabrera. He was tasked with taking and testing samples 224 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 2: from all of the former well sites and drafting a 225 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 2: report about which sites had been remediated, which sites were 226 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 2: still contaminated, and how much it would cost to clean 227 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 2: everything up. He comes up a lot in this story 228 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:51,839 Speaker 2: from here on out, including in Chevron's PR emails. Just 229 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: a couple weeks after the Chevron reps were emailing about 230 00:13:55,360 --> 00:14:00,719 Speaker 2: Cabrera in this report, Chevron's longtime PR consultancy Singer of 231 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 2: Singer Associates, sent the team a new strategy. It breaks 232 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 2: down into three key areas to focus on. One corruption 233 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 2: in Ecuador and Corea as the strong man of Ecuador. 234 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: Two counter attacks against the plaintiffs, including questioning the funding 235 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: and motives of Cabrera, Donziger and Ecuadorian lawyer Pablo Fajardo. 236 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 2: Three Petro Ecuador is the real culprit. It's a full 237 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: court press. There are four separate PR agencies, including singers, 238 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: and they're coordinating with Chevron's PR team. It includes plans 239 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: for all forms of media and advertising, and even money 240 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 2: for a front group or a singer puts it quote 241 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 2: the US Chamber of Commerce or another think tank or 242 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: organization to create an organization solely devoted to addressing the 243 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: issues of Ecuador and actively attacking its positions on business, 244 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 2: the media, international loans, and socialist policies. But before this 245 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 2: strategy could deliver results, the plaintiffs continued to pick up 246 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: some wins. First, a bill that extended trade benefits to Ecuador, Peru, Colombia, 247 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 2: and Bolivia, a bill that Chevron had been lobbying against. 248 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 2: It passed. 249 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 3: Thank you all for coming. 250 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 13: I'm pleased. 251 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 3: That legislation extending the nd and Trade Preference Act has 252 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 3: made it to my desk, and I'm looking forward to 253 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 3: signing this piece of legislation. 254 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 2: Then in two thousand and nine, a documentary on the 255 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: case called Crude was announced. 256 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 3: Locate On. 257 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: Now has just been in destruction. 258 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 5: The total area in which texacooted. 259 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: In March, the Chevron PR team was strategizing again, and 260 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 2: chrisky Is wrote, quote, our lt long term strategy is 261 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: to demonize Donziger. This film provides us a great opportunity 262 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 2: to do so. 263 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 8: It's not by a single. 264 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: Before the film came out sixty minutes aired, it's special 265 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: on the case. 266 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 6: These are people who never believed they had a right 267 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 6: to sue an American company in their own court system. 268 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know what Chevron says. 269 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 3: They say that this is being driven by a New 270 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 3: York plaintiff's lawyer, and they don't mean that as a compliment. 271 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 13: I'm well aware of that. 272 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 6: They've taken out advertisements in the equadorm press with my name, 273 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 6: trying to attack my reputation. 274 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 2: What do you think of that? 275 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 6: Well, I think that it puts me in the membership, frankly, 276 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 6: of a very distinguished club of people. 277 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 2: With the media narratives spiraling out of its grasp, Chevron 278 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 2: brought in the big dogs, the law firm Gibson Done 279 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 2: in fall two thousand and nine. The firm was just 280 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 2: wrapping up a landmark case for Dole, the food company, 281 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 2: which had also been fighting a damages suit in Latin 282 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: America for decades. Nicaragua and Banana farmers had sued the 283 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: company for knowingly spraying their fields with a pesticide that 284 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 2: causes sterilization. They won in a Nicaragua court, but Gibson 285 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 2: Dune attorneys argued that that court had no jurisdiction over Dole, 286 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 2: an American company. 287 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 14: When did you get involved in the case? 288 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 7: What year? 289 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 4: Late two thousand and nine, early twenty ten. 290 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 2: That's Randy Mastro again. He led Gibson Dunn's work for 291 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 2: Chevron on the case. 292 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 14: In Ecuador, Okay, and what were you know? What was 293 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 14: sort of the task. 294 00:17:54,960 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 13: Gibson Dun was asked to join the team of outside 295 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 13: council representing Chevron in connection with the litigation in Ecuador 296 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 13: and in connection with trying to find out the truth 297 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 13: about what was going on in Ecuador. 298 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 2: By this point, not only was the media tipping in 299 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: favor of the plaintiffs, but President Correa had been publicly 300 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 2: supportive of the suit as well. Luis Jansa, Ecuador says 301 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 2: it wasn't even so much that Correa was a great 302 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 2: friend to the plaintiffs. He just wasn't as much in 303 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 2: the pocket of oil companies as previous Ecuadorian presidents had been. 304 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 15: Losioris sien pre estaman. 305 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 2: In parcel comp Previous governments were always biased in favor 306 00:18:53,880 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 2: of the company, he says, nonsotrosimos. We had to have 307 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 2: a lot of actions in Quito, with marches, meetings, press conferences, 308 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: meetings with politicians, all of that, a lot, a lot, 309 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 2: a lot of work to neutralize the government just so 310 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: they didn't bow completely to the company. When Correa was elected, though. 311 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 3: He. 312 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 2: Visited the area and talked to the people and realized 313 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 2: the magnitude of the damage the company had done and 314 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 2: that the struggle we had been carrying out for more 315 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 2: than a decade was just and he decided to support it. 316 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 2: He end the CEO. And on top of all that, 317 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight, Ecuador had ratified a new constitution, 318 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 2: one that gave equal rights to indigenous people, and that 319 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 2: included a radical new idea, yeah, the rights of nature. 320 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 2: Ecuador was the first country to include these rights in 321 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 2: its constitution. At some point, we're going to do a 322 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: whole season on rights of nature because it's fascinating and 323 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 2: it's really become an interesting new legal tool. But in 324 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 2: broad strokes, if you think about private property rights and 325 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 2: how they ascribe control over nature to whatever human has 326 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 2: purchased this piece of land, rights of nature says, forget 327 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 2: that nature has its own rights. All life forms have 328 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 2: the right to exist and to continue living. And here's 329 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 2: where it gets interesting from a legal perspective. It says 330 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 2: that legally, we the people have authority to enforce these 331 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 2: rights on behalf of ecosystems. The ecosystem itself can be 332 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 2: named as the defendant. It's hard to imagine Chevron or 333 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 2: really any oil company being happy about this kind of thing. 334 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 2: And so, in two thousand and nine, with multiple pr 335 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 2: firms and a new legal team, on board, the company 336 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 2: started to tell a different story. 337 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 12: A bitter environmental lawsuit against Chevron, the second largest oil 338 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 12: company in the United States, appears to be entering its 339 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 12: critical phase in Ecuador. 340 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 2: First, they hired former CNN reporter Gene Randall to host 341 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: a mirror image version of the sixty minutes documentary with 342 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: their side of the story. 343 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 12: Chevron asked toxicologist Thomas mchu to study the issue. 344 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 10: The health effects that reported are attributable to exposure to bacteria, 345 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 10: which is widespread in the drinking water sources. They're not 346 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 10: attributable to petroleum exposure, no. 347 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 12: Doubt about that. 348 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 10: There's no doubt in my mind. 349 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 12: Despite the claims that's correct, there are fears such findings 350 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 12: may be trumped by politics. Ecuador's President Rafael Correa loudly 351 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 12: supports the case against Chevron's At Correa's instigation, with the 352 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 12: support of the Amazon Defense Coalition, seven Ecuadorian officials who 353 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 12: signed Texico's environmental liability release faced criminal charges. 354 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: He's talking about the attorneys we mentioned at the top 355 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 2: of this episode, Ricardo Risvega and Rodrigo Perez Palaris, along 356 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 2: with seven Ecuadorian officials. They were accused of tampering with 357 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 2: a release form that had become pretty central to Chevron's 358 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 2: defense in this case. Shortly after that nineteen ninety four 359 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 2: meeting we mentioned in episode two, where Texico's lawyer was 360 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: meeting with the president and various environment ministers, the government 361 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 2: came to an agreement with Texaco about remediation. Here's Chevrons 362 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 2: spokesperson Kent Robertson explaining that arrangement to NPR. In late 363 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 2: two thousand and eight. 364 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 15: Texico held a thirty seven percent interest in the consortium, 365 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 15: with its majority partner being Petro Ecuador. Texico is not 366 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 15: operated in Ecuador for eighteen years. When it was time 367 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 15: for Texico to depart Ecuador, the party sat down and 368 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 15: worked out a remediation program where Texco would address its 369 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 15: proportionate share of the consortium thirty seven zero point five percent, 370 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 15: and Petro Ecuador assumed responsibility for the balance of the operations. 371 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety eight, after they had remediated thirty seven 372 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 2: point five percent of the pollution, Texico submitted documentation to 373 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 2: the government and the government signed a document releasing the 374 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 2: company from any further cleanup. Again, the argument the plaintiffs make, 375 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 2: and that the lawyer and researcher Judith Kimerling made to 376 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: us as well, is that Texico was the operator, and 377 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 2: that means they set everything up and they taught everyone 378 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 2: how to do things. They created the oil industry in Ecuador, 379 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 2: and they set a low standard for environmental responsibility. I 380 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 2: asked Randy Mastro about that. 381 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 14: We've had a few people kind of float this idea 382 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 14: of like, yes, okay, technically Petro Ecuador has been doing 383 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 14: all this stuff, but you know it was Texco who 384 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 14: trained them, and it Texco who built the whole system. 385 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 14: What is the response to that kind of line of thought? 386 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 4: Wow, that is revisionist history and you know, trying to 387 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 4: put the blame where it doesn't belong. Texago got kicked 388 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 4: out of the country starting in nineteen ninety. Texico spent 389 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 4: you know, back in the early nineties, you know, forty 390 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 4: plus million dollars on remediation and other relief, and in 391 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 4: those days, that was a lot of money. And in 392 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 4: independent testing services confirmed that Texico did what it was 393 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 4: supposed to do. 394 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: Like a lot of things in this story, this is 395 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 2: kind of true if you squinted it for long enough. 396 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 2: Texico began exploring for oil in Ecuador in nineteen sixty 397 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 2: four thanks to an agreement with the military junta that 398 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 2: controlled the country at the time. The company struck black 399 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 2: Gold in nineteen sixty seven. At that time, Texico was 400 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 2: in a partnership with Golf Oil, and both companies were 401 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: eventually acquired by Chevron. In nineteen seventy four, Ecuador formed 402 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 2: a state owned oil company, which would later become Petro Ecuador. 403 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 2: Texico and Golf each gave up a portion of their 404 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 2: ownership to the new state oil company, and then in 405 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven, Petro Ecuador bought Golf out and they 406 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 2: became the majority shareholder. Texico retained ownership of thirty seven 407 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 2: point five percent of the concession. That's why that number 408 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,959 Speaker 2: keeps cropping up, but it continued to be the operator 409 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 2: overall of all of the consortiums exploration and production assets 410 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 2: until nineteen ninety. In September nineteen eighty eight, Petro Ecuador 411 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: alerted Texco that it intended to take over as operator 412 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 2: by nineteen ninety. In nineteen ninety, texpet and Petro Ecuador 413 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 2: entered into an agreement to transition operations of the oil 414 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 2: fields from Texpat to Petro Amazonas. Texico retained its minority 415 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 2: stake in the concession until its original contract expired in 416 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two, and in nineteen ninety four, Texico's lawyer 417 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 2: was being flown in Petro Ecuador's plane to the president's 418 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 2: beach house. Which doesn't exactly sound like they were kicked 419 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 2: out of Ecuador. Here's Mastro again. 420 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 4: So a professional and you and a company expert in 421 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 4: doing these things got kicked out of the country and 422 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 4: remediated the wells that it was responsible for, and at 423 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 4: every level of the Ecuadorian government there were releases for 424 00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:02,360 Speaker 4: that activity. Then over the next twenty years, because Ecuador 425 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 4: kicked Texaco out of the country, only Petro Ecuador drills 426 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 4: and spills, no oversight, none of the kind of you know, 427 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 4: professionalism that might be expected, you know, just drilling and 428 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 4: spilling to make money for Ecuador. 429 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 2: Just a reminder, here's Judith Kimberling on what she saw 430 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 2: when Texico was drilling professionally in the Ecuadorian Amazon in 431 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 2: the nineteen eighties. 432 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 16: The company had just dug a hole in the ground, 433 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 16: dumped their toxic drilling waste, and then abandoned it in 434 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 16: the rainforest. And when you abandon toxic waste in the rainforests. 435 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: Some of it seats into the ground. 436 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 16: You also get a lot of rain, so it overflows 437 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 16: into the surrounding areas, and I was appalled. 438 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 2: Mastro and his firm were hired in lead. Two thousand 439 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 2: and nine, the sixty Minutes special had come out. Equadorian 440 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 2: attorneys Luisiansa and Papa Cardo had gotten the Goldman Environmental Prize, 441 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 2: Equadorian President Rafael Correa had voiced public support for the case, 442 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 2: and the Constitution of Ecuador had been changed to include 443 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: the rights of nature. A documentary about the case by 444 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 2: an award winning filmmaker was about to debut at Sundance, 445 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 2: and the balance of power in this case was about 446 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 2: to shift again next time on Drilled. 447 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 7: No way would any rational person, He's very rational, jeopardize 448 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 7: things by cutting horse. He did nothing, He didn't bribe anyone. 449 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 7: He has a big mouth and he mouthed off this 450 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 7: guy kill prill insurer. 451 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: I think if I had it to do over, I 452 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: would advise my client to completely protest the trial. And 453 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: unfortunately Steven didn't have that option. Because Steven lives in 454 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: New York and he's subject to the jurisdiction of the 455 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: court and he has to defend the case. But my 456 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: clients did have that option, and that was not a 457 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: card we chose to play. 458 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 16: You know, I'm not trying to encourage you guys to 459 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 16: focus on the misconduct. I think that's what Chevron wants 460 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 16: us to all being. But the point I want to 461 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 16: make is that, you know, while I think that the 462 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 16: actions against Steven are excessive, I don't think that he's 463 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 16: just a victim because he's a human rights defender. I mean, 464 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 16: I think that narrative is very simplistic. 465 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 2: Drilled is an original production of the Critical Frequency podcast Network. 466 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 2: It's created and reported by me Amy Westerveldt. My co 467 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: reporter on this season is Karen Savage. Our editor is 468 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: Julia Ritchie. The show's editorial consultant is Rika Murphy. Mixing 469 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 2: and mastering by Mark Bush. Original score by b Beeman. 470 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Larissa Ikeda, Trevor Gowen, and Emily Gertz. 471 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 2: Our fact checker is wu Dan Yan. Our First Amendment 472 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 2: attorney is James Wheaton with the First Amendment Project. Our 473 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 2: artwork for this season was created by the talented Matt Fleming. 474 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 2: If you are a Patreon subscriber, Thank you. Your money 475 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 2: is helping to make this season. As a special thank you, 476 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 2: we will be putting bonus content in the Patreon feed 477 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: and also releasing episodes early there. If you're not a 478 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 2: member and you want to support our work, please check 479 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 2: out patreon dot com slash drilled. That's it for this time, 480 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week.