1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Have you ever considered delving 2 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: into the mind of a serial killer? I do not 3 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: advise it at all. So often we learn of serial 4 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: killers that seemingly functioned normally in regular life. One was 5 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: a law student, Ted Bundy, One was a dogcatcher, a 6 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: church deacon, a dad father that would be BTK buying 7 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: torture Dennis Raider. I could go on and on and 8 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: on how serial killers seemingly lead a normal life and 9 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: they blend in amongst us. Little do we know they 10 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: are serial killers. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How did 11 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: a nerdy local baker get revealed as one of the 12 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: most prolific serial killers ever in the US? Take a 13 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: listen to this too. Off duty Anchorage police officers were 14 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: hunting moose near the Connect River in a wilderness about 15 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: twenty miles from Anchorage. As they made their way through 16 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: the dense forests, they happened upon partially buried human remains. 17 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: They left it undisturbed. The next day, crime scene technicians 18 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: from the Alaska State Troopers arrived at the scene. Crimes 19 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: out here fell into state juris diction. Besides clothing and 20 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: an elastic bandage troopers found a two twenty three caliber 21 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: shellcasing in the shallow grave. Dental records identified the remains 22 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: as twenty three year old Sherry Morrow, an exoted dents 23 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: who reported missing a year earlier by her boyfriend. Troopers 24 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: called him in to break the news. Her clothes matched 25 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: the ones he reported her missing him, but her good 26 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: luck charm, the gold arrowhead pendant she never took off 27 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: instant was gone. Tomorrow was probably murdered shortly after she disappeared, 28 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: giving the killer more than a year to cover his tracks. 29 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: With me an all star panel to break it down 30 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: and put it back together again. You were just hearing 31 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 1: our friend Anthony call the FBI files Hunter's Game talking 32 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: about the first victim we believe to be attributed to 33 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: Butcher Baker, an American serial killer. With me Randy Kessler, 34 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: renowned defense attorney who specializes in not only criminal defense, 35 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: but family law. Doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, Chief Psychiatry, 36 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: Memorial Regional Healthcare Systems. You can find them on insta 37 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,839 Speaker 1: a Doctor Daniel Bober, Jennifer Sen, forensic scientist, former San 38 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: Diego Police crime Lab director at jenshen Forensics dot Com. 39 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: Doctor Kendall Crowns, renowned deputy medical examiner, Travis County, Texas. 40 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: That's Austin and special guests joining us. Leland Hall, author 41 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: of Butcher Baker, who was Sherry Morrow to you, Leland Hale, 42 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: somebody who is passing through Anchorage at that time. In 43 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: Anchorage there was lots of money because the oil pipeline 44 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: was booming, lots of men who came up there, and 45 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: there was a pipeline of women who would work as 46 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: dancers in Seattle. They go to Anchorage, they worked there 47 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: for a while. They I find it hard to imagine 48 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: somebody just passing through Anchorage. I mean, I've traveled a lot, 49 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: both with and without my twins, but I've never just 50 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: passed through Anchorage. I mean, that's not really on a 51 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: typical route. You have to go way out of your 52 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: way to get to Anchorage, Alaska. That is true. But 53 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: there was a company called Talents West that hired dancers 54 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: and they had clubs. What's the name of it, Talents West. 55 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: Talents run West n T S b A l E 56 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: NTS and that's for strippers, that's for strippers and dancers. 57 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: They had clubs in Seattle. They had clubs, and in Alaska. 58 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: They had clubs in Hawaii. So they hire these women 59 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: often in Seattle, and they would ship them from place. 60 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: You make them sound like cattle. I started off liking you, 61 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: Leland Hale. Now you can have a call about that. 62 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: They ship them around like cattle. Too hard to reach 63 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 1: destinations that you can't normally get to. Hawai Alaska Talents 64 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: West was a local Seattle based mafia organization organized crime. 65 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: And one of the things in the clubs is if 66 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: you have people coming back, you want them to come 67 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: back again and again. So they like fresh talent, and 68 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: so that's they would work there a while, they would 69 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: move upon. So that's kind of how these women got there. 70 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: But of course there were lots of money in Anchorage, 71 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: so a lot of them stayed, and there was lots 72 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: of clubs, so they could go from club to clubs. 73 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: Hold on, just a moment. I got to go to 74 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: Randy Kessler. I'm sure in the city of Atlanta have 75 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: represented your share stripper. You know there's a thing about strippers. Kestler. 76 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: My husband David, one of his friends, very good friend 77 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: in college, wonderful man's great job. He fell in love 78 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: with a stripper. She wasn't happy until she bled him dry, 79 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: ruined his marriage and left him. All right, men are 80 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: like ATM machines to strippers. So I guess what Leland 81 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: Hall is saying is a lot of them go where 82 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: the money is. I guess, so, Kestler, that's true, that 83 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: allow of the women go where the money is too. 84 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: In fact, to speak of law school when I was 85 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: in law school. So when I was in law school, 86 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: put herself through law school by making that money. And 87 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: you know what, there's some people that do it and 88 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: they're not that people. They recognize men are going to 89 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: pay silly money for to see a naked woman and 90 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: they take advantage of what they got. That be a 91 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: lesson ju Kessler. M guys, we were talking about Butcher Baker, 92 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: one of the most prolific serial killers in the world, 93 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: and we know that possibly one of his first victims 94 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: was Sherry Morrow. She wasn't found until two off DD 95 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: police officers were out hunting and found partially buried human remains. 96 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: You know, let me go to you, Jennifer Shen. I 97 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: don't know if he's that smart because the shell casing 98 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: was still in the grave, isn't it true that you 99 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: can trace not only the forensic markings on a bullet itself, 100 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: but on the shellcasing when the shellcasing is ejected from 101 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: the weapon. Yes, you're absolutely right about that. And you know, 102 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: it's interesting when I was doing some research on this, 103 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: you want to when you have a serial killer, you're 104 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: looking at connecting cramping after crampanther cramping together to get 105 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: enough information to figure out who's doing this. So he 106 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: obviously thought that she was far enough away and off 107 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: the beaten path and that he would be protected from that. 108 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: I don't know why he would have picked that pick 109 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: to that up and not left it there, because that 110 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: was really instrumental in making the cases so to each 111 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: other and to him later, So that was definitely mistaken. Yeah, 112 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: you're right, and to you, doctor Kendall. Crown's Deputy Medical 113 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: Examiner Austin Or think about it. Let's follow it through 114 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: to its natural conclusion. Maybe he took her there, doug 115 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: the grave and shot her right there, killed her right there, 116 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: and didn't realize he had left the shell casing behind. Yeah, 117 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: that's always a possibility that people in the moment of 118 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: murdering someone kind of forget about cleaning up after the fact, 119 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: and especially with shell casings, they often forget to pick 120 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: those up. Yeah, it's a lot of people know that 121 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: you can trace a bullet forensically. I'll never forget the 122 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: first time I watched at the crime lab how bullets 123 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: were matched up to a particular individual gun. It's like 124 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: a fingerprint. As that bullet hurls down the barrel of 125 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: the gun, it strikes the edges the inside of the gun, 126 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: which is made of metal. Of course, in such a 127 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: way it leaves striation marks on the bullet that no 128 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: other gun can leave. Same thing when a shell case 129 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: is ejected, the ejection pen as I call at least 130 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: a mark on the shell casing that no other gun 131 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: will leave. Time Stories with Nancy Grace, we are talking 132 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: about possibly the post prolific serial killer in the world, 133 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: definitely and Alaska. Take a listen to FBI files Hunters game. 134 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: During new road construction. In September two, nineteen eighty three, 135 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: a Q huners to human skeletal remails not far from 136 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: where Sherry Marl body had been found one year earlier. 137 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: The bones had obviously been here for some time, yet 138 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: until recently, this area of the connect river was so 139 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: remote that it could only be accessed by boat or 140 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: light plane. The remains were identified as seventeen year old 141 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: Paula Goulding, an out of work secretary who had moved 142 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: to Alaska from Hawaii. She had been missing for five months. 143 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: Like Sherry Morrow, she had taken a job as an 144 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: exotic dancer to make ends meet. And like Sherry Morrow, 145 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: the two twenty three caliber cartridge was found at the site. 146 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: For Alaska State Trooper Wayne van Clausen, the connection was 147 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: frightening and at about when everything started to become kind 148 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: of scary for everybody because the profile was the shame 149 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:56,479 Speaker 1: they were. They were topless dancers from the clubs downtown. 150 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: So we're will give her somebody that frequent strip Clause's 151 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: how does a seventeen year old girl dance at a 152 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: strip club in Alaska? I mean, you can't buy booze 153 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: or cigarettes, but you can dance in a strip club. 154 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: But also, I'm curious to Leland Hill authorov Butcher Baker 155 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: or his latest book, what Happened in Craig Alaska's worst 156 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: unsolved mass murder Leland First of all, there's a hurdle 157 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: of a seventeen year old girl dancing at a strip club. 158 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,239 Speaker 1: But the fact that their bodies are in such remote 159 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: areas tells me a lot about the killer. Right tells 160 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: you a lot about the killer. It tells you a 161 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: lot about Alaska, specifically, vast state, easy to get away into, 162 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: remote places, which is in part explains the carelessness about 163 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: his brass. He was so far away you can only 164 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: get there by boat or plane. There is actually a 165 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: very rough road that goes to the connect I've taken 166 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: at once. I would not recommend anyone else drives that road. So, yeah, 167 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: the Kennate River. He was using the bush as his 168 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 1: sort of ultimate weapon. Well, I like what you just said, 169 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: using the bush as his ultimate weapon. The wilderness guys 170 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: were talking about Butcher Baker, a mass cure on the 171 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: loose in Alaska. Take a listen to this. Seward Alaska 172 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: is a small city over one hundred and fifty miles 173 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: south of Ekludna on the remote Kenai Peninsula. Highway maintenance 174 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: workers come to do their job and they find a 175 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: body and the police get to the crime scene. There 176 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: is a bear and this bear has been gnawing on 177 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: the victim. Police have a choice shoot the bear or 178 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: lose their evidence to a bear. So are they killed 179 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: the bear? The body is wrapped in the moldy sleeping bag. 180 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: It's a woman without any clothes. Her body has been 181 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: dragged there hastily buried. There's no identification on the victim, 182 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: and the troopers transport the body back to town for autopsy. 183 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: To you, doctor Daniel Bober, the fact that this victim 184 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: and a moldy sleeping bag getting gnawed on by a 185 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: bear is naked tells me a lot about the motivation. Doctor, 186 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: What does it tell you, Nanty, It tells me it's 187 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: a sex motivation. Whether or not the women have been raped, 188 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 1: it's a completely different issue. But the fact that they 189 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: were naked tells me that the bodies were either stripped 190 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: before or after death. Now, why was it to sex 191 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: assault them before death, after death to get rid of 192 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: evidence that may have been on the close. But the 193 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: fact that two of the women so far have been 194 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: coming from strip clubs, one just a secretary at age seventeen. 195 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,719 Speaker 1: Now the third body naked, that tells me it has 196 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: something to do with the women being naked, which tells 197 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: me it's sex motivated crime. I mean, I'm not the 198 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: shrink you are. Don't try throwing my own question back 199 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: at me, Bober, but you just did, so tell me 200 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: what does it mean to you? Well, I think you 201 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: would have to examine the body closer to know, obviously 202 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: if there was any sexual assault. But yes, I do 203 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: think that there's a sexual element to it. I agree 204 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: with you. To you. Leland Hale, author of Butcher baker 205 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: latest book, What Happened in Craig, Alaska's worst unsolved mass murder. Leland, 206 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: explain to me again where this body is found. Is 207 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: this a separate body or is it the same when 208 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: we were talking about Paula Goulding. This is a separate body, 209 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: a third body, a third body, Yes, and it's it's 210 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: miles in the opposite direction where from where Paula Goulding's 211 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: body was found. So the Knick River is north of Anchorage. 212 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: This body was found on the Kenai Peninsula, which is 213 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: quite a bit south of Anchorage. So this also tells 214 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: you a little bit about the scope of these crimes. 215 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: And I said, you know, the wilderness, the bush has 216 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: his ultimate weapons. So he's all over this wilderness in Alaska, 217 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: And it tells me a lot about his psyche because 218 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: you have to be a wilderness expert to go that 219 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: far into the outback the forest, a very very heavily 220 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: wooded forest, to know where to bury these bodies, to 221 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: hide them. So I think that we are now talking 222 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: about a twenty four year old. He definitely has a time. 223 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: Youngest so far so far is seventeen. Then you've got 224 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: Sherry Morrow twenty three. Now Joanna Messina twenty four, who 225 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: I think is the body in the multi sleeping back. 226 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: You were just hearing Mark of a Killer on Oxygen. 227 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: Now take a listen to Mark of a Killer with 228 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: author Leland Hale. Carna determines that the victim died from 229 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: a two twenty three caliber gunshot loud. It's a hard 230 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: powered rifle that's a type of weapon to use to 231 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: kill large game animals the hunters would be familiar with. 232 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: By fingerprints, the human remains in that shallow grave will 233 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: positively identified as Joanna Messina from Seward, Alaska. Police start 234 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: to interview people who know her. Joanne Messina is a 235 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: prostitute trying to get a job in a counter. Joanna's 236 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: friends tell police that Joanna went to meet a man 237 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: who promised her a shopping spree, but she never returned 238 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: and talked to her friends about it, boyfriend's parents and 239 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: the relatives. Everything we did turned out nothing, No suspect. 240 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: Straight out to Leland Hall, author of Butcher baker Or 241 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: latest book, What Happened in Craig Alaska's Worst Unsolved mass Murder? 242 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 1: Leland what is the m Are all the women shot? Yes, 243 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: we're on their body? Are they shot? Is it always 244 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: the same? It's a killed shot, so usually to the 245 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: carso sometimes right to the heart. What do you mean 246 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: by kill shot? Well, so you're aiming for the widest, 247 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: broadest part of the body where all the internal organs are. 248 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: So that's the same as police are trained military men. 249 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: Yeah to you, Doctor Kennel Crown's Depu Medical Examine, Austin. 250 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of a kill shot? Yeah, I've 251 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: heard people refer to a kill shot, specifically an execution 252 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: type shot where they shoot an individual in the back 253 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: of the head. Often it's associated with mom type hits 254 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: where they put the kill shot with another shot and 255 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 1: then leave the gun at the site. Prime Stories with 256 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about one of the most 257 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: prolific serial killers to ever walk the US, this time 258 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: centered in Alaska, the FBI desperately developing a criminal profile. 259 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: To Leland Hale, author A Butcher Baker explain to me 260 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: Leland what the profile was that the FBI came up with. Well, 261 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: they thought it was somebody who was a hunter. Yeah, 262 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 1: they thought it was somebody who was a loner. They 263 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: thought it was someone who was a businessman, had some 264 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 1: sort of cover. But I don't I don't get why 265 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: they're saying a loaner. Of course it's a hunter, because 266 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: they're out in the middle of the woods and the 267 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: bullets indicate a high powered hunting rifle. I mean, I 268 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: can figure that much out. I don't know why they're 269 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: getting businessman because he could pay to tips strippers. I 270 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: mean like constructional worker could do that. Anybody could. If 271 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: you can pay the cover to get in a strip bar. 272 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean you're a businessman. Where'd they get that? Well, 273 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: because they figured quite accurately that some of these bodies 274 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: found on the connect River were probably transported there by plane. 275 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: Ah Okay, So even though Alaska has a very high 276 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: rate of private plane ownership, it still umps the ante 277 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: of who is in that picture to afford it now, 278 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: I get it, because these areas were so remote leland 279 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: hail that they could only be gotten to by playing. 280 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying? Some of these areas for sure, Yes, 281 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: especially on the connect there's no roads of any note 282 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: going there, so you can get there by boat. It's 283 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: a little harder when you're trying to kidnap somebody to 284 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: take them to a romote place. Guys, finally we get 285 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: a break one of the would be murder victims lives. 286 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: Listen to Anthony d Call in a Hunter's Game. On 287 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: the early morning of June thirteenth, nineteen eighty three, Cindy Poulson, 288 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 1: aged seventeen, ran down an Anchorage highway. She was partially 289 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: dressed and in handcuffs. She managed to flag down a 290 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: passing truck. She was running for her life. The motorists 291 00:20:55,440 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: dropped her off at her motel apartment. The desk it 292 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: could call the Anchorage police. It's falsa. An officer removed 293 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: her handcuffs and tried to calm her. All right, let 294 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: me get this. Anchorage police officer Greg Baker recalls the incident. 295 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: We found her in handcuffs with very little clothes on. 296 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 1: She was real credible. She's very scared. She's very frightened. Guys. 297 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: The woman is half naked, running for her life in handcuffs. 298 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 1: Now to you, doctor Daniel Bober, don't throw my question 299 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: back at me. Okay, what does it tell you that 300 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: the victim was handcuffed? It calls me. It could be 301 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: a few things, Nancy. It could be that that was 302 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: the way that he subdued the victim, that he used 303 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: as a tool of control. Or it could be part 304 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: of something ritualistic sexually. You mean S and M bondage. Correct? 305 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: Why am I having to spoon feed you baby food? Bober? 306 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: Out with it? What kind of mind wants the woman 307 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: to be handcuffed? Someone that enjoys the thrill of the 308 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: power and the control. Unpsy Guys, what do we learn 309 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: from her? She manages to live to tell the tale? Listen. 310 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: Paulson told Baker that she picked up a trick the 311 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: night before. She described him as wiry, scruffy, about six 312 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: feet tall, with glasses and to stutter. It was not 313 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: the kind of person. She thought of his threatening, But 314 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: as soon as she stepped into his car, heat handcuffed 315 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: her and put a wood handled revolver to her head. 316 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,479 Speaker 1: They drove to a respectable residential neighborhood. He pulled her 317 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: into his house. The place was well kept and full 318 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: of hunting trophies. He had a chain hanging from the 319 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: ceiling of his den. He chained her up and stripped her, 320 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: and there she was tortured and raped repeatedly for hours. 321 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: Then he went to take a nap, leaving her there, 322 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: but he wasn't through yet. He said he was going 323 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: to take her to his cat in the wilderness. He 324 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: said if she tried to get anyone's attention, he'd kill 325 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: her and them as well. He told her he already 326 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: had his alibi worked out here, his friends were willing 327 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: to lie for him. No one would believe her story. Wow, 328 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: So he gets her into the home and I find 329 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: this very very interesting to you. Jennifer Sham, forensics scientist 330 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: at jen Sham Forensics dot com. I always use Scott 331 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: Peterson as a good example because it's easy to relate 332 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: and to understand. Have you noticed that criminals always go 333 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: where they're comfortable, where they've been before, some place with 334 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: which they are familiar, to dump a body or committed crime. 335 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: Peterson was a fisherman, so he kills Lacy Peterson, according 336 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: to a jury and the California Supreme Court, and dumps 337 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: her body in the San Diego Bay. Excuse me, the 338 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: San Francisco Bay, because he's fished there many many times before. 339 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: We see it over and over and over. So in 340 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: this case, according to this this young girl just seventeen, 341 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: who lives running down the road naked and handcuffed. Half 342 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: naked and handcuffed, she says, he takes her to what 343 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: she believes is his home in a quote respectable residential area. 344 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: What is it with criminals? They always go to a 345 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: place that's connected to them in some way. Yeah, it's 346 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: kind of shocking, and it tells you a couple of things. 347 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: Number one that he absolutely was going to kill her, 348 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: because brings her into his home where she could, you know, 349 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: basically just discuss what she had seen and did that. 350 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: In fact, when she got away, it ties her to him. 351 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: So I thought must have been that he was going 352 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: to kill her. And you know, murdering someone or torturing 353 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: raping them, it's a it's a risky business. So you 354 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: do tend to see serial killers concentrate in areas that 355 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 1: they feel comfortable. So that is a measure of control 356 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: they have over their environment. But actually to have her 357 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: in his own home is that's pretty That's not something 358 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: that I've seen a want. That is actually pretty startling. 359 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: I can understand particular places in the woods, et cetera. 360 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: But to bring her into his family home or if 361 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: he was married and had children, that is that's very unusual. 362 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: So right now we've got Cindy Paulson, just seventeen years old, 363 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: trying to explain to police what happened to her. So far, 364 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: all she can say really is that the guy took 365 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 1: her to a home which seemed to be a respectable 366 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: residential area. Their word's not mine. But other than that, 367 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: that's all she can say in addition to a general description. 368 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: But then she gives a detail that makes sense. Take 369 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: a listen to Anthony D. Call Hunter's game banded up 370 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: at the airport, She could see him loading a weapon 371 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: into a small aircraft. She also saw her chance for escape, 372 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: for one chance to save her life. The story sounded outrageous, 373 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: but her genuine terror compelled Officer Baker to check it out. 374 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: I had a very street smart female scared to death 375 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: with the story about being taken at gunpoint and held 376 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: prisoner at a specific location that she described where it 377 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: was so she knew where it was. She described the 378 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: interior of the location. She described a den up to 379 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: and including various animals who are posted on the mounted 380 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: on the wall. En route to the hospital for an examination, 381 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: Paulson insisted on stopping at the airport to show police 382 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: the airplane she had seen earlier. She positively identified it. 383 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: While we were in there, we had a security guard 384 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 1: stop us and described a car the same way that 385 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: Cindy described a car, and in fact gave us a 386 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: license number. That license number confirmed the address or the 387 00:26:50,920 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: area at least that Cindy had given us Prime stories 388 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, Guys, we were talking about one of 389 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: the most prolific serial killers to ever walk the US 390 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: or its territories, Butcher Baker. Now we're getting somewhere to 391 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: Leland Hell, author of Butcher Baker or his lady's book, 392 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: What Happened in Craig Alaska's worst unsolved mass murder. Leland Hell. 393 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: Now we're narrowing it down. We now have somebody that 394 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: owns or rents a plane, a car description, and a 395 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: tag number. Because when you go to a private airbase. 396 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: They take your tag number from your car as you 397 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: go in and out. Usually there's a security checkpoint to 398 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: get into most of them. So now they're starting to 399 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: narrow down who the guy might be. What can you 400 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: tell me about this girl, Cindy Paulson. Well, she was 401 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 1: addicted to cocaine. She'd been dancing in a bunch of 402 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: clubs and hooking on the side. She'd run away from home, 403 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: was strange from her family. She was obviously very scared, 404 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: but somehow this young woman, as scared as she was, 405 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: just had an incredible memory for detail. So going back 406 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: to the plane, that was the plane. It was the plane. 407 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: And they, by the way, you could also identify the 408 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: plane because it has a tail number of it links 409 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,479 Speaker 1: it to the same person that they're looking for in 410 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: terms of the car. She was chained up in this 411 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: basement for hours while he slept watching the clock tick tick. 412 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: Knew she was going to die. I was determined to live. 413 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: It's not my time, that's what she's and she was 414 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: right chained up in a basement watching the clock tick 415 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: tick tick. After hours and hours of rate and torture. Finally, 416 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: because of this young girl who would normally face horrible 417 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: credibility issues across exam addicted to coke, stripper hooking on 418 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: the side. But this girl is telling the truth. Take 419 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: a listen to a hunter's game. On the surface, Baker 420 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: found nothing in Hanson's record to arouse suspicion. He had 421 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: moved to Anchorage from Iowa sixteen years earlier and opened 422 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: a bakery. It was a huge success. He had a 423 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: wife and children, and except for his stutterarn, he fit 424 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: in completely. When he wasn't in the kitchen, Hanson enjoyed 425 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:55,479 Speaker 1: flying his small airplane, a supercub Piper. Back on the ground, 426 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: he took to the woods. He was a Oland citizen. 427 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: He just didn't fit the model of a serial killer. 428 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: There were plenty of others drifting through Alaska more suited 429 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: to that role. They didn't have businesses, they didn't have 430 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: families Hanson did. He had everything to lose. Let me 431 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: understand something, Leland Hale, author of Butcher Baker, This guy 432 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: Hanson had a wife and children. How do you bring 433 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: a rape slash murder victim into your home, into your 434 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: basement with them in the home. How do you go 435 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: from being a quote nerdy local Baker into a serial killer. 436 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: So these killings Bob described as his summertime project. His 437 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: wife was a teacher, and the auten arranged for her 438 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: to be out of town so he would go to 439 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: arc she would go to Arkansas to visit her family. 440 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: The summer that this occurred, she was in Europe for 441 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: several months, so he had the house to himself and 442 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: he planned these excursions. Helped his wife plan these excursions, 443 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: sometimes a year ahead. Wow, Eland, that is a lot 444 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: of planning. So he's planning the murders a year ahead 445 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: of time. He is planning liaisons. In fact, five days 446 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: before the Cindy Cindy Paulson was brought there, he brought 447 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: another woman there he'd advertised in the was called the 448 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: Sunday Singles. She happened to be Alaska State Trooper secretary. 449 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: He brought her to the same place and she said, no, 450 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: I don't want to have sex on the bearskin rug 451 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: and you let her go. Five days later, Cindy Poulson 452 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: is in that same place with a different outcome. Guys, 453 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: we are talking about so called butcher baker, serial killer 454 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: posing as the local baker. What can you tell me 455 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: about his bakery? Leland. He was very successful. His dad 456 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: was a baker from Denmark, so he really learned that 457 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: a master's side. He took baking jobs all throughout the 458 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: Midwest before coming to Alaska, worked for other people, worked 459 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: Safely Bakery for a while, and then got his own bakery. 460 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: It was very close to actually was very close to 461 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: the anchored strip where all the hookers. Wow. Okay, yeah, 462 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: so he's seeing them as he's got this seemingly normal life. 463 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: And he had children as well, two children, yes, And 464 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: I guess they would go with mom when he would 465 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: ship her off to Arkansas or wherever they would go 466 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: with mom, that's correct. Would he have a spate of 467 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: murderers that he could fit in into her trip or 468 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: was it one a year that we know of? Well, 469 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: he was most prolific between nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty three. 470 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,719 Speaker 1: And we have a map with about what seventeen nineteen 471 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: twenty mark on it, so he was yolific during that period. 472 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: The map he would bury his victim's bodies and martin 473 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: their grays with an X on a map that he 474 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: that he had. But you know what we're saying, how 475 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: did he transform from a meek mild nerdy, local baker 476 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: at a bakery into a mass murderer, a serial killer. 477 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: But you know what all the signs were there. Take 478 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: a listen to the FBI files. In nineteen sixty seven, 479 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: he moved to a let hunting. Three years after moving there, 480 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: his record showed he was arrested for the attempted rape 481 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: of a young receptionist at gunpoint. He pleaded no contest 482 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: to assault with a deadly weapon. A little more than 483 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: a month later, he was indicted for the attempted assault 484 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: of an eighteen year old woman he followed home soon 485 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: as the man got to Alaska. He was involved in 486 00:33:55,320 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: theft cases. He was involved in abductions. He had psychiatric 487 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: evaluations showing him to be really unstable and having all 488 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: kinds of weird sexual fantasies and the rest. True to 489 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: the profile, Hanson seemed a respectable citizen, so the courts 490 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: were lenient. In one case, he claimed to have memory 491 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: lapses and was given psychiatric treatment in five years in 492 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: a work release program. He abducted one of his early 493 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: victims outside of coffee shop, took her to a cabin 494 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: in the wilderness, and raped her at gunpoint. She was 495 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: seventeen at the time. All of this is fitting together 496 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: as an m I just don't understand how it was 497 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: overlooked Leland Hale, the seventeen year old receptionist, as just 498 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: like his other victims that we know of, two of 499 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: them seventeen. Yes, it is curious, right, Why didn't he 500 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: go to jail for twenty to live on the rape? Well, 501 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: the rape charge was dropped because the woman was a 502 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: prosecute and they felt like they had the better case 503 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: with the other woman who he attempted to kidnap and 504 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: rape because she was not a prostitute. She was a 505 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: real estate secretary. Okay, so one sex related attempt and 506 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: rape after the next, and he never was put behind bars. 507 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to this guy, 508 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 1: Robert Hansen, in his own words, remember anything about what 509 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: she looked light, her size, Harry? Was she bound in anyway? 510 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: At his point? Going out here? I did not walk 511 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: and she where where where we was going so far? 512 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: I guess it. Maybe it made me feel national or 513 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: our boy are in a control of my life. Braw 514 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: things like fine in that Redson, but the time went 515 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: to five. That time you're listening to our friends over 516 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: at investigation discovery that time. I mean, how many murderers 517 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: do we attribute to Butcher Baker Leland Hale? How many? Well, 518 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: at least twenty seven and probably more like thirty thirty two. 519 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: Hard hard to say. There's there's some on his map 520 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: that he denied, of course, that there's a couple of 521 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: marks in the middle of Resurrection Bay, Resurrection Bay near 522 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: Seward in the water. So who knows, right guys this perp. 523 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: Robert Hansen, a local baker at the bakery, walked a 524 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 1: ast everyone free. Never put behind bars for his sex 525 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: attacks up to thirty plus murder victims an fyi. He 526 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: died of old age behind bars. Nancy Grace crime story 527 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friend,