WEBVTT - Isaac Arnsdorf & Adam Becker

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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<v Speaker 1>where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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<v Speaker 1>today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't have a great show for you today.

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<v Speaker 1>Adam Becker stops by to talk about his new book

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<v Speaker 1>More Everything Forever, AI Overlord, Space Empires, and Silicon Valley's

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<v Speaker 1>crusade to control the fate of humanity. But first we

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<v Speaker 1>have a senior White House reporter for The Washington Post,

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<v Speaker 1>Isaac Arnsdorf, on his new book twenty twenty four, How

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<v Speaker 1>Trump Retook the White House and the Democrats Lost America.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Fast Politics, Isaac. Thank you so much for

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<v Speaker 2>having me, Molly.

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<v Speaker 1>So the book is called twenty twenty four How Republicans

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<v Speaker 1>Took the White House and the Democrats Lost America. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to ask you a passover question. How is this

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<v Speaker 1>book different than all other books?

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<v Speaker 2>This is really the the defining, definitive inside account of

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<v Speaker 2>the election that we just had from start to end.

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<v Speaker 2>Some books have have covered just one campaign or the other.

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<v Speaker 2>Some have started just kind of with the debate and

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<v Speaker 2>and in the final stretch. But this really goes back

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<v Speaker 2>to the beginning in terms of for both Trump and

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<v Speaker 2>Biden the decision to run again, which was not not

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<v Speaker 2>inevitable for either of them, or that neither party would

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<v Speaker 2>would would let or that both parties would let that happen, right,

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<v Speaker 2>that no one would be able to get their respective

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<v Speaker 2>parties to move on from those septuagenarians, and then seeing

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<v Speaker 2>that story develop throughout both primaries, through the debate, through

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<v Speaker 2>the Democrats switch, and then finally with the result that

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<v Speaker 2>we all saw in November.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so let's keep going with this. What made Biden lose?

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<v Speaker 1>If you could give me sort of two reasons why

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<v Speaker 1>Biden lost.

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<v Speaker 2>The first answer is the most obvious one, which is age.

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<v Speaker 2>Most Americans thought he was too old to do the job,

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<v Speaker 2>and they couldn't get past that. The mistake that his

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<v Speaker 2>advisors made was viewing that as a perception problem rather

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<v Speaker 2>than a reality problem. Right. The case that they were

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<v Speaker 2>making with is, well, he can do this job as president.

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<v Speaker 2>He doesn't communicate that well, he doesn't campaign that well,

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<v Speaker 2>he doesn't debate as well as he used to, remember,

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<v Speaker 2>that was the line. But when he's in the situation room,

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<v Speaker 2>when he's in the oval office, he can do the job.

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<v Speaker 2>And what that argument really fatally overlooks is that communicating

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<v Speaker 2>is the number one job of the president. If you

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<v Speaker 2>cannot communicate about your agenda and your accomplishments and your leadership,

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<v Speaker 2>then you cannot do the job. There is no difference

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<v Speaker 2>between doing the job and being able to communicate about

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<v Speaker 2>the job. The second factor for Biden is that the

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<v Speaker 2>Democrats were not able. They acknowledged during the campaign that

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<v Speaker 2>they needed to come up with a winning economic argument,

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<v Speaker 2>and they never got there. They never got there with

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<v Speaker 2>Biden and they never got there with Harris. There's actually

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<v Speaker 2>some great reporting in the book. During Harris's debate prep

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<v Speaker 2>and I asked about Biden.

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to I want to square the circle

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<v Speaker 1>with Biden for a minute. I was told by Jake

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<v Speaker 1>Tapper that Biden ran a cover up about his age.

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<v Speaker 1>So how did Biden run a cover up about his age?

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<v Speaker 1>And also the American people didn't vote for him because

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<v Speaker 1>he was too old? Is it, as Jake Tapper tells

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<v Speaker 1>us again and again and again, a cover up? Or

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<v Speaker 1>was it that people thought he was too old? Are

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<v Speaker 1>you on team cover up? I just I'm curious.

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<v Speaker 2>Our reporting is that Biden and his staff were completely

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<v Speaker 2>aware of his limitations, completely aware of the political problems

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<v Speaker 2>that those limitations posed. They thought that they could muscle

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<v Speaker 2>through them. They thought that they could choreograph events to

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<v Speaker 2>downplay them. And they thought that when push came to

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<v Speaker 2>shove and Americans were forced to choose between that and

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<v Speaker 2>Trump and Trump, je's Biden and they were wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>But the polling suggests that there.

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<v Speaker 2>Was not a cover up because Americans pursue sounds like

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<v Speaker 2>Americans knew exactly what his administration knew. So is that

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<v Speaker 2>a cover up? I'm just curious. To me, a cover

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<v Speaker 2>up means a secret that was hidden, and Biden's age

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<v Speaker 2>was not a secret that was hidden. I'm just curious.

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<v Speaker 1>Look, I love Jake Taber and I have so much

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<v Speaker 1>respect for how many books he sold.

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<v Speaker 2>So talk to me about Harris.

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<v Speaker 1>So Harris gets one hundred days in, Biden finally drops out,

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<v Speaker 1>Harris gets run for president, but she doesn't get to

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<v Speaker 1>run for president as if she were a new candidate.

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<v Speaker 2>So explain to us that, yeah, that's exactly right. That

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<v Speaker 2>was one of the one of the things that I

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<v Speaker 2>learned from doing the book was how much Harris. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>she didn't do everything that she could to escape Biden's shadow, right.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, she was repeatedly given the option to distance

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<v Speaker 2>herself and she wouldn't take it. Now, based on our reporting,

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<v Speaker 2>some of that is honestly her position, right, Like, she

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<v Speaker 2>was part of his administration and she didn't feel like

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<v Speaker 2>she could honestly run from that. The other factor is

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<v Speaker 2>Biden made that harder for her because he actually came

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<v Speaker 2>out and told her, even on the day of the debate,

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<v Speaker 2>came to her and said, don't distance yourself from me.

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<v Speaker 2>It would be bad for you. But right, no daylight. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>that's the famous no daylight. That particular word choice is

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<v Speaker 2>not the phrasing that we have in our reporting, But

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<v Speaker 2>there was a conversation where he told her that it

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<v Speaker 2>would be politically bad for her to distance herself. Do

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<v Speaker 2>you agree with that? Well? From reporting, right, I mean

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<v Speaker 2>not based on what the voters wanted to see, and

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<v Speaker 2>that certainly wasn't what wasn't the Republican sense of it.

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<v Speaker 2>And in hindsight or even at the time, a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of her advisors admitted that the way that she bungled

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<v Speaker 2>that question at the view was the biggest mistake of

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<v Speaker 2>the campaign. You know, rivaled only by the trans AD,

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<v Speaker 2>but the trans AD was something that was from years earlier,

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<v Speaker 2>whereas that was a mistake that was made during the campaign.

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<v Speaker 2>But even beyond that, a lot of people were obviously

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<v Speaker 2>critical of the campaign that Harris ran in twenty nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>for the twenty twenty primary, and a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>had a low view of her potential or had concerns

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<v Speaker 2>about her potential as a candidate. But the reality is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, whether she could have run a better campaign

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<v Speaker 2>for herself or not in twenty twenty four, she really

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<v Speaker 2>never got the chance. I mean, basically it was with

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred days out, there was no time to do

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<v Speaker 2>any of the kind of strategic and tactical thinking that

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<v Speaker 2>you have to do to run a campaign that actually

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<v Speaker 2>fits the candidate, where the messenger and the message worked together.

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<v Speaker 2>There was just no time to do that. They just

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<v Speaker 2>ran moved forward with the Biden campaign as it was,

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<v Speaker 2>including with a lot of the same advisors who were

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<v Speaker 2>Biden people who had come up with the policies that

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<v Speaker 2>the Biden administration was struggling to defend. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>how is she supposed to she just there was there

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't a chance for her to do a complete, a

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<v Speaker 2>complete ruboot. She never got the chance to run her

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<v Speaker 2>own campaign and see if she could have gotten farther

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<v Speaker 2>on her own.

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<v Speaker 1>I wonder if you could talk about this sort of

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<v Speaker 1>consultant class and where they got involved in like you

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<v Speaker 1>certainly saw moments like I saw Tim Walls, and maybe

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<v Speaker 1>because I also am friendly with him, I feel a

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<v Speaker 1>little responsible for this.

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<v Speaker 2>On some level.

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<v Speaker 1>But like Tim Walls, whenever I interviewed him, I thought,

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<v Speaker 1>this guy is really got a little bit of political magic, right,

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<v Speaker 1>Like when he speaks, he's pretty good. He's got very likable,

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<v Speaker 1>very midwestern, like I just sawt There were a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of elements about him that I thought were really good,

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<v Speaker 1>and he had a number of really good speeches. And

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<v Speaker 1>then something happened when I was watching him and he

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<v Speaker 1>stopped and they didn't let him out. And there was

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<v Speaker 1>that with her too.

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<v Speaker 2>She sort of had a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>Of fire, and then there was like a month in

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<v Speaker 1>the middle where you just didn't see her, And I

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<v Speaker 1>wonder if you could talk about that and what that

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<v Speaker 1>was and what you sort of saw that to be.

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<v Speaker 2>So that month you're talking about where she didn't do

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<v Speaker 2>any interviews, that's another mistake that the team will acknowledge

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<v Speaker 2>in hindsight privately whose idea was that and why? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>the thinking was, you know, for Walls, that he couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>do an interview until she did an interview, and with her,

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<v Speaker 2>they wanted to wait until the convention to introduce her.

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<v Speaker 2>They wanted to be able to divide to find that

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<v Speaker 2>story for themselves. Harris also, that.

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<v Speaker 1>Was it, by the way, a huge mistake. I think

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<v Speaker 1>we can all agree.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the Trump campaign certainly used that time to get

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<v Speaker 2>out ahead to start this storyline that she was hiding,

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<v Speaker 2>and that contributed to this sense that you were hearing

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<v Speaker 2>from voters that they didn't know who she was. That

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<v Speaker 2>was that was valuable time that that the Trump campaign

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<v Speaker 2>was able to capitalize on instead of the Harris campaign.

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<v Speaker 2>The other reality that we learned in our reporting is

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<v Speaker 2>that Harris personally, this kind of comes from her prosecutorial training.

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<v Speaker 2>She requires a lot of prep Ye, I've heard that

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<v Speaker 2>how she works, and so the amount of time that

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<v Speaker 2>it took her away from the trail to prepare for

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<v Speaker 2>every one of those interviews, you know, there was a

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<v Speaker 2>trade off there also, and at first that wasn't a

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<v Speaker 2>trade off that they were as willing to make And

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<v Speaker 2>it was later on that they that they that they

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<v Speaker 2>decided either that they were going to take that time

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<v Speaker 2>away to do the prep or that she was going

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<v Speaker 2>to start doing interviews with less prep.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that I had heard that she

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<v Speaker 1>really I mean, what I had heard was that she

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<v Speaker 1>didn't really like doing interviews, that she was much better

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<v Speaker 1>with debating, which you could I mean, she's a really

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<v Speaker 1>good debater. I thought she was a really good debater,

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<v Speaker 1>and that she took a long time to prep. That

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<v Speaker 1>she really wanted to prep like a prosecutor, which is

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<v Speaker 1>totally insane because you can't prep for an interview. You

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<v Speaker 1>just have to go in there and talk, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think anyway, and certainly Donald Trump has

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<v Speaker 1>never prepped for anything in his life. What do you

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<v Speaker 1>think I want? Let's talk about the Trump campaign. It

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<v Speaker 1>strikes me that they really just put him in the

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<v Speaker 1>culture and took the idea that politics is downstream of

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<v Speaker 1>culture and just got him in everywhere. My sense is

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<v Speaker 1>that he just did everything and it worked. But was

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<v Speaker 1>there some method to the madness?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, that was one of the one of the specific

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<v Speaker 2>things that they sent out to do. They called it

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<v Speaker 2>making him a cultural icon instead of a political figure.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know that very naturally to Trump. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>that's who he was for most of his life. He

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<v Speaker 2>was a celebrity. He was not a politician. And you

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<v Speaker 2>could see this as early on as the primary. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>he went to a frat house for a pregame before

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<v Speaker 2>a football game in Iowa. You know, do you know

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of seventy seven or seventy eight year old

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<v Speaker 2>politicians who could just show up at a frat house

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<v Speaker 2>and flip burgers. I mean, those kinds of settings really

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<v Speaker 2>played to his strengths based on the kind of personality

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<v Speaker 2>that he was for most of his life, and that

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<v Speaker 2>was actually an opportunity for younger, younger voters, younger audiences

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<v Speaker 2>to introduce them. You know, they didn't know that, they

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<v Speaker 2>don't remember Trump before he was the politician, and so

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<v Speaker 2>that was a really powerful way to reintroduce him.

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<v Speaker 1>You know what's funny is that I actually think that

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of politicians could do that if they let

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<v Speaker 1>them do that. But democratic politics, for whatever reason, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'd love you to like square this circle, because you

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<v Speaker 1>guys just wrote this book about the two campaigns. It

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<v Speaker 1>strikes me that the level of carefulness in the Biden Harris,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, like keep them cloistered, keep them safe, keep

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<v Speaker 1>them from speaking, is the largest sort of fuck up

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<v Speaker 1>because like, had you sent here's just I'm gonna give you.

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<v Speaker 1>This is my own hobby horse. But I'm gonna give

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<v Speaker 1>you I'm torturing you. I know, I'm sorry first the

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<v Speaker 1>tap re question, now this but but it's my podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>So but it strikes me that if you had led

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<v Speaker 1>Tim Walls or Harris do the number of interviews and again,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe they weren't THEO Vaughn might not have wanted to

0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.480
<v Speaker 1>have Harris on or and Joe Rogan may have. You know,

0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.200
<v Speaker 1>I've heard conflicting stories about what happened with the Joe

0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:47.880
<v Speaker 1>Rogan thing, whether he wanted her, whether that was too

0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:52.480
<v Speaker 1>far away, whether I mean, who knows, somebody told me that.

0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so tell me. Let's tell me what tell me.

0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.520
<v Speaker 2>So it is so Walls had a lot more success

0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.000
<v Speaker 2>getting on podcasts than Harris, it's all.

0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:01.160
<v Speaker 1>Did they not want her?

0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.360
<v Speaker 2>Yes, they got a lot of no's, a lot a

0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:11.040
<v Speaker 2>lot of of of non political podcasts that have left

0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:15.560
<v Speaker 2>leaning audiences said no because they didn't want to bring

0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:20.200
<v Speaker 2>politics into the space. Like who the Travis and Jason

0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Kelsey podcast said no, That Bill Simmons podcast said no.

0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:29.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, they couldn't get on Hot Ones either, Wow,

0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:35.040
<v Speaker 2>the Hot Sauce show, Hot Ones show. Yeah, I'm not

0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:39.160
<v Speaker 2>a podcast person. And and then you know, with Rogan,

0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:43.120
<v Speaker 2>it was a lot of back and forth, and Rogan

0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.719
<v Speaker 2>wanted her to come do it in Texas, and so

0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.040
<v Speaker 2>they set up that rally in Texas. But then they

0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:52.120
<v Speaker 2>actually by the time they and they didn't really give

0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:54.360
<v Speaker 2>Rogan's team a heads up that they were doing that.

0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.320
<v Speaker 2>So then by the time they scheduled that, it was

0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:02.640
<v Speaker 2>almost too late. And finally Rogan offered the campaign of

0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:06.400
<v Speaker 2>time and they didn't take it. So it's a it's

0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of a missed connection. But yeah, it's a.

0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:13.199
<v Speaker 1>Fuck up on their part. Subway Takes guys said, he

0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.000
<v Speaker 1>thought she was so bad they killed it. They only

0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.920
<v Speaker 1>aired walls the Subway Takes guys, that's a podcast too,

0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.400
<v Speaker 1>so she so wow. Okay, yeah, so.

0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:26.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, you've you've you've heard democrats talk about this

0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:30.000
<v Speaker 2>asymmetry in the in the manosphere or the podcast right

0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.480
<v Speaker 2>that that you know, the the those those right wing

0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:38.040
<v Speaker 2>so called manosphere podcasts. You know, we were really happy

0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.600
<v Speaker 2>to bring Trump on and to get political in ways

0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.040
<v Speaker 2>that kind of either there aren't equivalents on the left

0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.720
<v Speaker 2>or the closest thing to equivalent equivalents on the left,

0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:49.880
<v Speaker 2>we're not willing to do.

0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.120
<v Speaker 1>This is such a crazy I had no idea. At

0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:55.000
<v Speaker 1>some point did they know they were going to lose

0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.320
<v Speaker 1>in Harris world, and when.

0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:01.200
<v Speaker 2>Our reporting is that their internal tra backing polls never

0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:06.040
<v Speaker 2>showed her ahead, They showed it very close in the

0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:10.280
<v Speaker 2>swing states up until the end. And she personally, you know,

0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:13.000
<v Speaker 2>she didn't write a concession speech. She was not expecting

0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.840
<v Speaker 2>to lose. They it did not feel to Harrison Walls

0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:18.800
<v Speaker 2>up through the last night, it did not feel like

0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.840
<v Speaker 2>a losing campaign. And that has to do with why

0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:23.400
<v Speaker 2>you didn't see her on election night.

0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:25.920
<v Speaker 1>Wow, I would love you to talk about something that

0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:29.120
<v Speaker 1>I have written about, have saw and have and am

0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:33.280
<v Speaker 1>really interested in. Would is this idea that people and

0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:37.840
<v Speaker 1>John mcgrache what a really good piece about this that

0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:42.240
<v Speaker 1>Trump voters wouldn't believe that Trump was going to do

0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.800
<v Speaker 1>the things he said he would do on the campaign,

0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.080
<v Speaker 1>that there was a suspension of disbelief among the voters.

0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.320
<v Speaker 1>Can you sort of talk to me about if you

0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:52.720
<v Speaker 1>saw reporting that spoke to this.

0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.200
<v Speaker 2>I think you have to distinguish between different parts of

0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.560
<v Speaker 2>the Trump coalition. You know, if you're going to a

0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:05.080
<v Speaker 2>Trump rally and talking to diehards, they absolutely take him

0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:11.960
<v Speaker 2>literally and they're absolutely thrilled about that. But you know, abortion,

0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, there are other issues and and other you know,

0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:22.320
<v Speaker 2>more persuadable voters that the Trump campaign was able to

0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.240
<v Speaker 2>to convert and and you know, we could look at

0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.720
<v Speaker 2>abortion as a good example of this, where you know,

0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:33.080
<v Speaker 2>the Democrats would attack him as supporting as being responsible

0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.920
<v Speaker 2>for overturning Robe Wade and and wanting to impose a

0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:40.320
<v Speaker 2>national abortion ban. And Trump came out with this position

0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.840
<v Speaker 2>of leave it to the states, and when presented when

0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.160
<v Speaker 2>when they presented that to these persuadable voters, they were

0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:51.720
<v Speaker 2>targeting those voters liked that position. So so there was

0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:55.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, there was an ability for voters to compartmentalize

0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:57.600
<v Speaker 2>with Trump. I think you know that they could that

0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:01.560
<v Speaker 2>they could vote for him because of immigration, or they

0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.640
<v Speaker 2>could vote for him because of the economy, and pay

0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:09.440
<v Speaker 2>less attention to the rougher edges that they weren't as

0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.480
<v Speaker 2>they weren't as focused on so interesting.

0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:16.280
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for joining us, Isaac.

0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:17.879
<v Speaker 2>That flew by, Thank you so much for having me.

0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.760
<v Speaker 1>Adam Becker is the author of More Everything Forever, AI Overlords,

0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:31.320
<v Speaker 1>Space Empires, and Silicon Valley's Crusade to Control the Faith

0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:32.080
<v Speaker 1>of Humanity.

0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:34.679
<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Fast Politics, Adam.

0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:36.480
<v Speaker 3>Thanks for having me, Molly, it's great to be here.

0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:41.000
<v Speaker 2>So you write about AI. It's great and we're not

0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:42.480
<v Speaker 2>going to have any problems.

0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's exactly that's the message of my book, that's right.

0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:48.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah.

0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.600
<v Speaker 3>The book is called More Everything Forever because that's something

0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:53.840
<v Speaker 3>that we can have and it's a totally reasonable dream.

0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So talk us through this book.

0:17:56.400 --> 0:18:03.240
<v Speaker 3>So the basic idea is there's horrible and unrealistic visions

0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.879
<v Speaker 3>of the future that tech billionaires are taking very very

0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:12.199
<v Speaker 3>seriously as a roadmap for what we as a species

0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:16.000
<v Speaker 3>should do, or more properly, where they should steer us

0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.959
<v Speaker 3>with their power to control the rest of us. And

0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:23.280
<v Speaker 3>these ideas generally involve going to space and living forever

0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:25.440
<v Speaker 3>under the watchful eye of an AI god.

0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:27.600
<v Speaker 2>Why do we have to go to space?

0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's a really good question. There's essentially no reason

0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:33.120
<v Speaker 3>for it.

0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.320
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I mean, I like Europe, I like Los Angeles,

0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:39.639
<v Speaker 1>I like Chicago, But I don't want to go to

0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.080
<v Speaker 1>space particularly. I mean, I just don't even get it. Like,

0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:44.920
<v Speaker 1>am I stupid? Is that what's happening here?

0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:47.399
<v Speaker 3>No, you're not stupid. They want to go to space

0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.160
<v Speaker 3>because that's where they think the future is. Because that's

0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:52.879
<v Speaker 3>the future. Well, because that's what science fiction told them,

0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:54.080
<v Speaker 3>and they've confused science fiction.

0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.160
<v Speaker 2>For you, that makes sense, okay.

0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And so you know, Musk says that we need

0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.720
<v Speaker 3>to get off of Earth in order to save this

0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:07.000
<v Speaker 3>species and preserve the light of consciousness. And so he says,

0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:08.959
<v Speaker 3>you know, he wants to put a million people on

0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.639
<v Speaker 3>Mars by twenty fifty and have that be a completely

0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:16.399
<v Speaker 3>self sufficient colony. That's not going to happen. There's just

0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.600
<v Speaker 3>no way it's going to happen. Mars is a terrible place.

0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.240
<v Speaker 3>The gravity is too low, the radiation's too high, there's

0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:26.040
<v Speaker 3>no air, and the soil is made of poison. It's

0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.679
<v Speaker 3>a terrible place. Yeah, and Mosco wants to put a

0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:29.520
<v Speaker 3>million people there.

0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:31.399
<v Speaker 2>Can he be one of a million people?

0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:33.600
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I would like him to be the first one.

0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:35.720
<v Speaker 1>You know, remember when Elan was like, I'm going to

0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.160
<v Speaker 1>dig a tunnel between New York and DC and it's

0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:41.320
<v Speaker 1>going to take seven minutes to get there. And I

0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.479
<v Speaker 1>was like, yes, my man, because I would take a

0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:46.760
<v Speaker 1>tunnel that takes seven minutes to get from New York

0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:47.080
<v Speaker 1>to d C.

0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:48.359
<v Speaker 2>What happened with that?

0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:54.639
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so the hyperlop. He later essentially admitted that this

0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:56.679
<v Speaker 3>was an idea that he put out there because he

0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.960
<v Speaker 3>wanted to kill the high speed rail project in California.

0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.560
<v Speaker 1>Let the record show, I'm giving you a ironic thumbs up.

0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:10.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and he doesn't like public infrastructure, that's why he's

0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:11.119
<v Speaker 3>destroying it.

0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:15.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh good, good, just checking. Why doesn't he like public infrastructure.

0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:18.880
<v Speaker 3>Because it's harder to monetize and harder to control.

0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's good, just checking. Yeah, it makes me feel

0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:22.920
<v Speaker 2>much better.

0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:23.720
<v Speaker 3>I'm glad.

0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:24.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.479
<v Speaker 1>Basically this is all the fault of science fiction writers

0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:29.119
<v Speaker 1>in the seventies, like my father.

0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:34.879
<v Speaker 3>Uh sorry dad, Yeah, it's all you do a little bit. Yeah, yeah,

0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.440
<v Speaker 3>I mean I'm a huge science fiction fan. I love

0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.000
<v Speaker 3>science fiction. I grew up reading enormous amounts of old

0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.480
<v Speaker 3>science fiction, the same stuff that these tech billionaires read.

0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.120
<v Speaker 3>I think that sure, part of it is the fault

0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:46.800
<v Speaker 3>of the science fiction itself, but a lot of it

0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:51.080
<v Speaker 3>is also bad readings of that science fiction, like misunderstanding

0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:51.919
<v Speaker 3>it really badly.

0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:52.959
<v Speaker 2>Say more on that.

0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:57.159
<v Speaker 3>So, for example, Peter Thiel, everybody's favorite person.

0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:00.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we love him. Yeah, he's a very are you

0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:02.080
<v Speaker 2>sweaty guy? Have you ever seen him?

0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:02.720
<v Speaker 1>Like?

0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:05.960
<v Speaker 2>Very sweaty? Go on? Hopefully you won't sue me for that.

0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:09.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. You never know with Peter Diel, No.

0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:11.880
<v Speaker 2>You absolutely don't. We actually don't. For a long time,

0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:13.680
<v Speaker 2>we wouldn't say his name on this podcast.

0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:15.359
<v Speaker 1>We would just say that guy who sees a lot

0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:17.399
<v Speaker 1>of people like Devin Nuna's all right, go on, go on?

0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:22.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, When Devin Nunas sued his fake cow love that

0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:26.639
<v Speaker 3>yeah No. Teal said in an interview with Maureen Daud

0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:30.080
<v Speaker 3>that he preferred Star Wars to Star Trek because he

0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:33.399
<v Speaker 3>thought that Star Wars was capitalist and that the plot

0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:38.040
<v Speaker 3>of Star Wars was driven entirely by Hans Solo owing

0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.760
<v Speaker 3>money to job of the Hut. This is not what

0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:41.720
<v Speaker 3>Star Wars is about.

0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:44.480
<v Speaker 2>Speak for yourself, I mean.

0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:48.600
<v Speaker 3>George Lucas said that he based the rebels in Star

0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:52.200
<v Speaker 3>Wars on the Viet Cong right and Teal is saying

0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:55.240
<v Speaker 3>that that's a capitalist story, so what is easy identifying

0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:57.919
<v Speaker 3>with the empire. He's also said that, you know, we

0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:00.680
<v Speaker 3>should base our plans for things on science fiction of

0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:03.159
<v Speaker 3>their fifties and sixties, and that the message of that

0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:06.440
<v Speaker 3>science fiction is that we should develop space, develop the oceans,

0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.280
<v Speaker 3>develop the deserts. I don't know. I read Dune a

0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:11.760
<v Speaker 3>couple of times. I don't think the message of Dune

0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.199
<v Speaker 3>is developed the deserts any more than the message of

0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:17.800
<v Speaker 3>Star Wars is build a death star and blow out planets.

0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.120
<v Speaker 3>That's awesome, And Teal is not the only one, right,

0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.920
<v Speaker 3>Musk has a long history of publicly misunderstanding science fiction

0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:25.639
<v Speaker 3>and sort of the rest of these guys.

0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:29.520
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I have to tell you that the idea that

0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:34.280
<v Speaker 1>they're reading science fiction wrong, it reminds me of Doge.

0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:35.560
<v Speaker 2>Right, so we have Doge.

0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:39.639
<v Speaker 1>They're cutting government contracts, and it turns out they're you know,

0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:44.160
<v Speaker 1>they're like reading the numbers wrong. They're publishing billion instead

0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:47.080
<v Speaker 1>of million. Right, they saved eight billions and million. You

0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:49.840
<v Speaker 1>know that they're just moving so fast and making a

0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:52.320
<v Speaker 1>lot of mistakes. Is that what's happening here? Or is

0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:56.680
<v Speaker 1>it this sort of intentional misreading in order to I mean,

0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:59.600
<v Speaker 1>like Peter Teal say what you will, is actually quite

0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:01.760
<v Speaker 1>smart and has done a lot of things that have

0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:05.919
<v Speaker 1>helped him, right, like suing Gawker. Again, I don't like

0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:09.040
<v Speaker 1>it for any number of reasons, but it was like

0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:13.400
<v Speaker 1>money that got him huge returns, right, it crushed Gawker.

0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:16.480
<v Speaker 1>It was like the beginning of the foray into destroying

0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:19.359
<v Speaker 1>the mainstream media. So he is very good at what

0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:21.919
<v Speaker 1>he does, whatever that is, I mean, in some ways.

0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:24.280
<v Speaker 1>But my thinking with him is that he's always just

0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:27.720
<v Speaker 1>so profoundly ideological that he can't see the forest from

0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:28.199
<v Speaker 1>the trees.

0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:32.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think that's probably right. I think that these

0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:36.040
<v Speaker 3>readings of science fiction, these misunderstandings of science fiction, are

0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:40.280
<v Speaker 3>appealing to them because they allow these guys to believe

0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:42.320
<v Speaker 3>stuff that they already wanted to believe and do stuff

0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:45.480
<v Speaker 3>that they already wanted to do. Right, It's very very

0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:49.000
<v Speaker 3>easy to hang on to a misunderstanding of It's one

0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:51.720
<v Speaker 3>that justifies everything that you want to do and makes

0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:53.760
<v Speaker 3>you a lot of money. And I also think that

0:23:53.800 --> 0:23:56.240
<v Speaker 3>there's a reading comprehension problem. So I guess the answer

0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:59.000
<v Speaker 3>to your question is sort of both. I mean, I

0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:01.640
<v Speaker 3>think that for a lot of these guys, they don't

0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:07.600
<v Speaker 3>think clearly anymore. They have their own self interest and

0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:11.440
<v Speaker 3>these dreams that they have that are wildly unrealistic, and

0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:15.359
<v Speaker 3>they just sort of aim toward those and anything else

0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:19.440
<v Speaker 3>that they think of. It's just very easy for them

0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:22.199
<v Speaker 3>to fool themselves into thinking that they're being profound, that

0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:25.639
<v Speaker 3>they've understood what's going on around them, as opposed to

0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:28.639
<v Speaker 3>living inside of a bubble of their own creation. And

0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:30.119
<v Speaker 3>I sort of wonder if this is one of the

0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:35.200
<v Speaker 3>reasons why they're so easily taken in by the idea that,

0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:39.520
<v Speaker 3>you know, text generation engines chatbots like chat GPT are

0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:42.639
<v Speaker 3>actually thinking because they just string words together in a

0:24:42.680 --> 0:24:45.600
<v Speaker 3>way that sounds good to them, and that's what they've

0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:48.680
<v Speaker 3>confused for thought at this point, because they don't need

0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:50.720
<v Speaker 3>to think carefully in order to make their way through

0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:51.520
<v Speaker 3>the world anymore.

0:24:51.640 --> 0:24:53.240
<v Speaker 2>I can't tell them I'm being stupid.

0:24:53.400 --> 0:24:55.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm very old, and I've been around long enough to

0:24:55.960 --> 0:24:59.280
<v Speaker 1>see the blockchain. Everything's going to go on the blockchain.

0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:01.439
<v Speaker 1>Here's why things are going to go on the blockchain.

0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:05.919
<v Speaker 1>All of this sort of fads, right Crypto the first

0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:09.520
<v Speaker 1>time that producer Jesse the Voice of God and I

0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:12.800
<v Speaker 1>have an ongoing dispute over like, is AI going to

0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:14.879
<v Speaker 1>take all our jobs and ruin our lives or is

0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:17.480
<v Speaker 1>AI just going to go on the blockchain like everything

0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:20.320
<v Speaker 1>else that's trendy. That thing you just said about chat

0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:23.960
<v Speaker 1>GPT makes me think that AI is not. That stringing

0:25:23.960 --> 0:25:27.199
<v Speaker 1>words together is not. But do you think AI is

0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:31.000
<v Speaker 1>going to take all our jobs and render us useless

0:25:31.040 --> 0:25:31.840
<v Speaker 1>flesh puppets?

0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:35.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? I don't think that AI can do the jobs

0:25:35.480 --> 0:25:39.040
<v Speaker 3>that we do now particularly well. And I don't think

0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:43.240
<v Speaker 3>that AI can replace humans the way that people who

0:25:43.280 --> 0:25:46.560
<v Speaker 3>are saying that it will take all our jobs are

0:25:46.600 --> 0:25:49.560
<v Speaker 3>sort of worried about or hopeful for, depending on where

0:25:49.600 --> 0:25:52.600
<v Speaker 3>they are in the economy. But I also think that

0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:55.399
<v Speaker 3>that may not stop it from taking a lot of jobs,

0:25:55.440 --> 0:25:58.240
<v Speaker 3>because the decision about whether or not you replace humans

0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:02.600
<v Speaker 3>with AIS is not based on reality. It's based on

0:26:02.960 --> 0:26:06.000
<v Speaker 3>the perception of reality up in the executive suite. And

0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:09.399
<v Speaker 3>so if there's a mass delusion or a mass you know,

0:26:09.600 --> 0:26:14.520
<v Speaker 3>hysteria about losing the AI race or this thing can

0:26:14.600 --> 0:26:16.800
<v Speaker 3>really do what all of the you know, people who

0:26:16.880 --> 0:26:20.960
<v Speaker 3>work for me do, then the executives are going to

0:26:21.000 --> 0:26:23.880
<v Speaker 3>try firing everybody and replacing them with AI and see

0:26:23.880 --> 0:26:26.919
<v Speaker 3>if that works. And you know, they're already trying that

0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:29.359
<v Speaker 3>and it's not working very well. You know, there their

0:26:29.520 --> 0:26:33.440
<v Speaker 3>study after study showing that when companies try to use

0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:37.080
<v Speaker 3>AI to replace humans, it doesn't go very well. And

0:26:37.400 --> 0:26:39.200
<v Speaker 3>I think we're going to see more of that and

0:26:39.280 --> 0:26:44.159
<v Speaker 3>hopefully that leads to a world where AI is, you know,

0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:48.440
<v Speaker 3>a tool that is used for certain applications that it's

0:26:48.640 --> 0:26:52.159
<v Speaker 3>you know, okay at or even good at, and you know,

0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:55.439
<v Speaker 3>it doesn't doesn't end up permanently taking all of our jobs.

0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:58.160
<v Speaker 3>But it's also being used as an excuse for these

0:26:58.160 --> 0:27:00.440
<v Speaker 3>companies to do what they already wanted to do, right,

0:27:00.600 --> 0:27:03.440
<v Speaker 3>just like the space stuff, And that's part of why

0:27:03.480 --> 0:27:07.440
<v Speaker 3>the idea of this AI is so appealing. The companies

0:27:07.640 --> 0:27:12.720
<v Speaker 3>don't much like their workers, right, I'm shocked. Yeah, they

0:27:12.760 --> 0:27:14.719
<v Speaker 3>don't want to have to keep paying their workers. They

0:27:14.720 --> 0:27:17.159
<v Speaker 3>don't want to have to deal with people who could

0:27:17.760 --> 0:27:21.679
<v Speaker 3>perhaps I don't know, organize and form a union and

0:27:22.280 --> 0:27:25.800
<v Speaker 3>start actually flexing their power. And so ideally what they

0:27:25.800 --> 0:27:27.840
<v Speaker 3>would like is to cut their workers out of the loop.

0:27:28.160 --> 0:27:30.760
<v Speaker 3>The AAI can't do that, but they'd like to believe it.

0:27:30.720 --> 0:27:33.480
<v Speaker 1>Can't, right, and that makes a lot of sense. These

0:27:33.800 --> 0:27:38.520
<v Speaker 1>tech role of arcs, billionaires whatever. Some of them are cowering,

0:27:39.240 --> 0:27:45.480
<v Speaker 1>very fearful, like Mark Zuckerberg. Some of them are embracing

0:27:45.720 --> 0:27:49.600
<v Speaker 1>Trump isam. I wonder if you could talk to us

0:27:49.680 --> 0:27:52.879
<v Speaker 1>about like we're already seeing. I think some of a

0:27:53.000 --> 0:27:55.560
<v Speaker 1>split between Musk and Trump. I think it's going to

0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:58.800
<v Speaker 1>be more or maybe not. So what do you think

0:27:58.880 --> 0:27:59.680
<v Speaker 1>is happening there?

0:28:00.160 --> 0:28:03.920
<v Speaker 3>Not sure what's happening between Musk and Trump specifically. I

0:28:04.000 --> 0:28:09.400
<v Speaker 3>think that Musk likes the idea of having that kind

0:28:09.400 --> 0:28:13.840
<v Speaker 3>of influence and power over the president, and Trump likes

0:28:13.960 --> 0:28:18.560
<v Speaker 3>that there's somebody sort of capering and cowering and meaning

0:28:18.640 --> 0:28:22.359
<v Speaker 3>himself publicly, and also someone who can take the flack

0:28:22.600 --> 0:28:24.959
<v Speaker 3>for the things that Trump and his people want to do.

0:28:25.560 --> 0:28:28.400
<v Speaker 3>So as long as that relationship remains useful to both

0:28:28.440 --> 0:28:30.639
<v Speaker 3>of them, I think it's going to go on. We

0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:34.080
<v Speaker 3>may be seeing the end of its usefulness. Musk tried

0:28:34.119 --> 0:28:36.919
<v Speaker 3>to buy the Wisconsin judicial election for Trump and it

0:28:36.960 --> 0:28:40.640
<v Speaker 3>didn't work, And there's been a lot of blowback about

0:28:40.840 --> 0:28:43.480
<v Speaker 3>Doge and the things that they've done, and they've led

0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:46.160
<v Speaker 3>to a lot of court cases that the Trump administration

0:28:46.280 --> 0:28:50.600
<v Speaker 3>is lost, and so you know, perhaps they see the

0:28:50.640 --> 0:28:52.640
<v Speaker 3>others sort of coming to the end of their usefulness.

0:28:52.680 --> 0:28:55.040
<v Speaker 3>I mean, certainly, Musk has already gotten a lot of

0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:57.200
<v Speaker 3>what he wanted in terms of, you know, getting rid

0:28:57.240 --> 0:29:01.400
<v Speaker 3>of the regulatory structures that were threatning his businesses because

0:29:01.440 --> 0:29:03.720
<v Speaker 3>he does things that are illegal.

0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:07.360
<v Speaker 2>But many people are saying.

0:29:07.360 --> 0:29:09.760
<v Speaker 3>Yes, exactly, many people are saying that he does things

0:29:09.760 --> 0:29:12.920
<v Speaker 3>that are legal. So that particular relationship I think could

0:29:12.920 --> 0:29:15.520
<v Speaker 3>have run its course. I'm not sure, but in general,

0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:22.000
<v Speaker 3>the tech brolgarchs are very comfortable with the idea of

0:29:22.080 --> 0:29:26.840
<v Speaker 3>autocracy and fascism. They do not mind getting rid of

0:29:26.920 --> 0:29:29.600
<v Speaker 3>democracy because they see it as irrelevant. And there has

0:29:29.800 --> 0:29:34.440
<v Speaker 3>long been this dream in Silicon Valley of getting out

0:29:34.480 --> 0:29:38.480
<v Speaker 3>from under the thumb of the government and using their

0:29:38.520 --> 0:29:40.760
<v Speaker 3>technology to solve all problems.

0:29:41.120 --> 0:29:43.160
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to be a cock eyed optimist here,

0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:46.840
<v Speaker 1>but I'm just curious, why do you think that they

0:29:46.880 --> 0:29:50.560
<v Speaker 1>don't care more about science. Trump Ism has canceled all

0:29:50.600 --> 0:29:53.440
<v Speaker 1>these government contracts there. I mean, Elon must made all

0:29:53.480 --> 0:29:56.640
<v Speaker 1>his money on science, you know, and other people's ideas.

0:29:57.000 --> 0:29:59.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's a good question. I think the answer is

0:29:59.400 --> 0:30:02.160
<v Speaker 3>they think that they do. They just think that scientists

0:30:02.160 --> 0:30:04.480
<v Speaker 3>aren't as good at science as they are. These guys

0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:07.280
<v Speaker 3>think that because they're the wealthiest people in history, that

0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:09.920
<v Speaker 3>makes them the smartest people in history. They think that,

0:30:10.440 --> 0:30:13.640
<v Speaker 3>you know, they know a lot about science and technology

0:30:13.680 --> 0:30:17.720
<v Speaker 3>because they run companies that build tech that's based on science.

0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:22.080
<v Speaker 3>But that's not actually how the world works, and they

0:30:22.120 --> 0:30:24.560
<v Speaker 3>are not scientists, and they actually don't know that much

0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:28.520
<v Speaker 3>about science. And so I don't think they see what

0:30:28.680 --> 0:30:32.000
<v Speaker 3>they're doing as an attack on science. They see it

0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:36.200
<v Speaker 3>as an attack on an entrenched power structure that threatens that, namely,

0:30:36.440 --> 0:30:42.440
<v Speaker 3>you know, the independence of academic science. They want science

0:30:42.520 --> 0:30:46.480
<v Speaker 3>to serve them, and they believe that they know what

0:30:47.200 --> 0:30:51.080
<v Speaker 3>real science will do. Mark Andresen one of these prologarchs, right,

0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:55.240
<v Speaker 3>He has said that he had this manifesto that he

0:30:55.280 --> 0:30:57.200
<v Speaker 3>put out about a year and a half two years ago,

0:30:57.360 --> 0:31:00.480
<v Speaker 3>and in that manifesto he said that, you know, he

0:31:01.320 --> 0:31:05.080
<v Speaker 3>and his fellow techno optimists were the keepers of the

0:31:05.120 --> 0:31:08.960
<v Speaker 3>real scientific method as opposed to you know, unaccountable academics

0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:11.680
<v Speaker 3>safe in their ivory tower. How does that work, Yeah,

0:31:11.680 --> 0:31:13.760
<v Speaker 3>that's a great question. I don't think that there is

0:31:13.800 --> 0:31:15.960
<v Speaker 3>a good answer there. I mean a lot of that

0:31:16.200 --> 0:31:20.400
<v Speaker 3>essay was Andresen, one of the most powerful people in

0:31:20.440 --> 0:31:23.720
<v Speaker 3>the world, trying to recast himself as the plucky underdog

0:31:23.800 --> 0:31:28.240
<v Speaker 3>against you know, scientists who are famously wealthy and powerful.

0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:32.240
<v Speaker 3>It's really a real misunderstanding of his place in the world.

0:31:32.560 --> 0:31:34.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, just wild.

0:31:35.160 --> 0:31:40.240
<v Speaker 1>What can people who are not billionaires do to protect democracy?

0:31:40.360 --> 0:31:42.520
<v Speaker 1>If you were looking at this and you were saying, like,

0:31:42.760 --> 0:31:45.560
<v Speaker 1>what would the song be in your head from what

0:31:45.600 --> 0:31:47.160
<v Speaker 1>you know about this crow?

0:31:47.720 --> 0:31:51.080
<v Speaker 3>I mean, the long term solution I think is stronger

0:31:51.120 --> 0:31:55.640
<v Speaker 3>government regulation, stronger enforcement of anti monopoly laws. And I

0:31:55.640 --> 0:31:59.200
<v Speaker 3>would like to see at some point a tax on

0:31:59.360 --> 0:32:02.160
<v Speaker 3>wealth that you know, makes it impossible to a mass

0:32:02.200 --> 0:32:04.000
<v Speaker 3>as much wealth as these people have. I would like

0:32:04.040 --> 0:32:06.880
<v Speaker 3>to see a billionaire tax. You know that that says

0:32:06.920 --> 0:32:09.000
<v Speaker 3>that if you have more than, say, I don't know,

0:32:09.600 --> 0:32:12.920
<v Speaker 3>five hundred million dollars and the rest of that in

0:32:13.040 --> 0:32:14.520
<v Speaker 3>everything you've got over that it's got to go to

0:32:14.520 --> 0:32:16.920
<v Speaker 3>the government, because five hundred million dollars is enough for

0:32:16.960 --> 0:32:23.760
<v Speaker 3>one person. So mean, yeah, I know, I know people

0:32:23.880 --> 0:32:24.920
<v Speaker 3>think that I'm a Marxist.

0:32:25.280 --> 0:32:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, people won't like that.

0:32:27.040 --> 0:32:29.280
<v Speaker 3>No, people won't like that, but I think it's a

0:32:29.320 --> 0:32:29.920
<v Speaker 3>good idea.

0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:31.920
<v Speaker 1>And what would you say, I mean, do you think

0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:34.880
<v Speaker 1>that they're going to like end elections. Do you think

0:32:34.920 --> 0:32:36.680
<v Speaker 1>that they're going to or you think this is a

0:32:36.720 --> 0:32:37.960
<v Speaker 1>slower role than that.

0:32:38.520 --> 0:32:42.640
<v Speaker 3>I think that they would like elections to go away

0:32:42.800 --> 0:32:46.600
<v Speaker 3>or be irrelevant for them. I don't know how quickly

0:32:46.720 --> 0:32:49.080
<v Speaker 3>that's going to happen. I think it's more likely that

0:32:49.080 --> 0:32:51.360
<v Speaker 3>they're going to try to continue to put their thumb

0:32:51.400 --> 0:32:54.080
<v Speaker 3>on the scale for the elections, right because because social

0:32:54.120 --> 0:32:56.400
<v Speaker 3>media already does a lot of that for them, Right,

0:32:56.480 --> 0:33:01.520
<v Speaker 3>Because the structure of social media makes it easier for

0:33:01.920 --> 0:33:06.200
<v Speaker 3>misinformation to spread, makes it easier for very silly, lowest

0:33:06.240 --> 0:33:10.080
<v Speaker 3>common denominator ideas to spread rather than having nuanced conversations

0:33:10.080 --> 0:33:12.680
<v Speaker 3>that we'd like to have in an informed democracy. And

0:33:12.920 --> 0:33:16.920
<v Speaker 3>then you throw in AI's ability to create misinformation on

0:33:17.240 --> 0:33:20.560
<v Speaker 3>scale at demand, and you know it's bad. I think

0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:22.400
<v Speaker 3>that they're going to keep doing more of that, and

0:33:22.400 --> 0:33:24.200
<v Speaker 3>that they're going to find other ways to sort of

0:33:24.280 --> 0:33:26.760
<v Speaker 3>use the levers of control of the government that they

0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:30.480
<v Speaker 3>have right now to make it harder to have free

0:33:30.560 --> 0:33:31.520
<v Speaker 3>and fair elections.

0:33:31.600 --> 0:33:32.040
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm.

0:33:32.480 --> 0:33:36.160
<v Speaker 3>Because that's easier for them to do than try to

0:33:36.280 --> 0:33:39.440
<v Speaker 3>end elections entirely. But I could be wrong. I wouldn't

0:33:39.480 --> 0:33:43.320
<v Speaker 3>be terribly surprised if somebody tries to stage like a

0:33:43.360 --> 0:33:47.600
<v Speaker 3>Reichstag fire type event to end elections. So I don't

0:33:47.600 --> 0:33:49.200
<v Speaker 3>have an easy answer on that one. But I do

0:33:49.360 --> 0:33:52.800
<v Speaker 3>know that the technology that these tech companies are building

0:33:52.840 --> 0:33:56.800
<v Speaker 3>and have been building, erodes the fabric of democracy, and

0:33:56.840 --> 0:33:59.840
<v Speaker 3>we're seeing the consequences of that now. Thank you, d

0:34:00.600 --> 0:34:02.720
<v Speaker 3>Thank you for having me, Mollie. It's great to be here.

0:34:04.160 --> 0:34:08.480
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

0:34:08.800 --> 0:34:14.240
<v Speaker 1>every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best

0:34:14.320 --> 0:34:18.640
<v Speaker 1>minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If

0:34:18.680 --> 0:34:21.720
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