1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean. 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 2: We don't have a great show for you today. 5 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: Adam Becker stops by to talk about his new book 6 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: More Everything Forever, AI Overlord, Space Empires, and Silicon Valley's 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: crusade to control the fate of humanity. But first we 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: have a senior White House reporter for The Washington Post, 9 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: Isaac Arnsdorf, on his new book twenty twenty four, How 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: Trump Retook the White House and the Democrats Lost America. 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Isaac. Thank you so much for 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: having me, Molly. 13 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: So the book is called twenty twenty four How Republicans 14 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: Took the White House and the Democrats Lost America. I'm 15 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: going to ask you a passover question. How is this 16 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: book different than all other books? 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: This is really the the defining, definitive inside account of 18 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: the election that we just had from start to end. 19 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: Some books have have covered just one campaign or the other. 20 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 2: Some have started just kind of with the debate and 21 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: and in the final stretch. But this really goes back 22 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 2: to the beginning in terms of for both Trump and 23 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: Biden the decision to run again, which was not not 24 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 2: inevitable for either of them, or that neither party would 25 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 2: would would let or that both parties would let that happen, right, 26 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 2: that no one would be able to get their respective 27 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 2: parties to move on from those septuagenarians, and then seeing 28 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: that story develop throughout both primaries, through the debate, through 29 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: the Democrats switch, and then finally with the result that 30 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 2: we all saw in November. 31 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: Okay, so let's keep going with this. What made Biden lose? 32 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: If you could give me sort of two reasons why 33 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: Biden lost. 34 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: The first answer is the most obvious one, which is age. 35 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 2: Most Americans thought he was too old to do the job, 36 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: and they couldn't get past that. The mistake that his 37 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 2: advisors made was viewing that as a perception problem rather 38 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: than a reality problem. Right. The case that they were 39 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: making with is, well, he can do this job as president. 40 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 2: He doesn't communicate that well, he doesn't campaign that well, 41 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 2: he doesn't debate as well as he used to, remember, 42 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: that was the line. But when he's in the situation room, 43 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 2: when he's in the oval office, he can do the job. 44 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 2: And what that argument really fatally overlooks is that communicating 45 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: is the number one job of the president. If you 46 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: cannot communicate about your agenda and your accomplishments and your leadership, 47 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 2: then you cannot do the job. There is no difference 48 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: between doing the job and being able to communicate about 49 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 2: the job. The second factor for Biden is that the 50 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: Democrats were not able. They acknowledged during the campaign that 51 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: they needed to come up with a winning economic argument, 52 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: and they never got there. They never got there with 53 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 2: Biden and they never got there with Harris. There's actually 54 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: some great reporting in the book. During Harris's debate prep 55 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 2: and I asked about Biden. 56 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: I just want to I want to square the circle 57 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: with Biden for a minute. I was told by Jake 58 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: Tapper that Biden ran a cover up about his age. 59 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: So how did Biden run a cover up about his age? 60 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,119 Speaker 1: And also the American people didn't vote for him because 61 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: he was too old? Is it, as Jake Tapper tells 62 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: us again and again and again, a cover up? Or 63 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: was it that people thought he was too old? Are 64 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: you on team cover up? I just I'm curious. 65 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: Our reporting is that Biden and his staff were completely 66 00:03:53,400 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: aware of his limitations, completely aware of the political problems 67 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: that those limitations posed. They thought that they could muscle 68 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: through them. They thought that they could choreograph events to 69 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: downplay them. And they thought that when push came to 70 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 2: shove and Americans were forced to choose between that and 71 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,799 Speaker 2: Trump and Trump, je's Biden and they were wrong. 72 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: But the polling suggests that there. 73 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: Was not a cover up because Americans pursue sounds like 74 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 2: Americans knew exactly what his administration knew. So is that 75 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: a cover up? I'm just curious. To me, a cover 76 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 2: up means a secret that was hidden, and Biden's age 77 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 2: was not a secret that was hidden. I'm just curious. 78 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: Look, I love Jake Taber and I have so much 79 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: respect for how many books he sold. 80 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: So talk to me about Harris. 81 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: So Harris gets one hundred days in, Biden finally drops out, 82 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: Harris gets run for president, but she doesn't get to 83 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: run for president as if she were a new candidate. 84 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 2: So explain to us that, yeah, that's exactly right. That 85 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: was one of the one of the things that I 86 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: learned from doing the book was how much Harris. You know, 87 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 2: she didn't do everything that she could to escape Biden's shadow, right. 88 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: You know, she was repeatedly given the option to distance 89 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 2: herself and she wouldn't take it. Now, based on our reporting, 90 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 2: some of that is honestly her position, right, Like, she 91 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: was part of his administration and she didn't feel like 92 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: she could honestly run from that. The other factor is 93 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 2: Biden made that harder for her because he actually came 94 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 2: out and told her, even on the day of the debate, 95 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 2: came to her and said, don't distance yourself from me. 96 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: It would be bad for you. But right, no daylight. Right, 97 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 2: that's the famous no daylight. That particular word choice is 98 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: not the phrasing that we have in our reporting, But 99 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 2: there was a conversation where he told her that it 100 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 2: would be politically bad for her to distance herself. Do 101 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: you agree with that? Well? From reporting, right, I mean 102 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 2: not based on what the voters wanted to see, and 103 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: that certainly wasn't what wasn't the Republican sense of it. 104 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: And in hindsight or even at the time, a lot 105 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 2: of her advisors admitted that the way that she bungled 106 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 2: that question at the view was the biggest mistake of 107 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 2: the campaign. You know, rivaled only by the trans AD, 108 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 2: but the trans AD was something that was from years earlier, 109 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 2: whereas that was a mistake that was made during the campaign. 110 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 2: But even beyond that, a lot of people were obviously 111 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: critical of the campaign that Harris ran in twenty nineteen 112 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 2: for the twenty twenty primary, and a lot of people 113 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: had a low view of her potential or had concerns 114 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: about her potential as a candidate. But the reality is, 115 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 2: you know, whether she could have run a better campaign 116 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: for herself or not in twenty twenty four, she really 117 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 2: never got the chance. I mean, basically it was with 118 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 2: one hundred days out, there was no time to do 119 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 2: any of the kind of strategic and tactical thinking that 120 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 2: you have to do to run a campaign that actually 121 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 2: fits the candidate, where the messenger and the message worked together. 122 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 2: There was just no time to do that. They just 123 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: ran moved forward with the Biden campaign as it was, 124 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 2: including with a lot of the same advisors who were 125 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: Biden people who had come up with the policies that 126 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 2: the Biden administration was struggling to defend. So, you know, 127 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 2: how is she supposed to she just there was there 128 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 2: wasn't a chance for her to do a complete, a 129 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: complete ruboot. She never got the chance to run her 130 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: own campaign and see if she could have gotten farther 131 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: on her own. 132 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk about this sort of 133 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: consultant class and where they got involved in like you 134 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: certainly saw moments like I saw Tim Walls, and maybe 135 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: because I also am friendly with him, I feel a 136 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: little responsible for this. 137 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 2: On some level. 138 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: But like Tim Walls, whenever I interviewed him, I thought, 139 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: this guy is really got a little bit of political magic, right, 140 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: Like when he speaks, he's pretty good. He's got very likable, 141 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: very midwestern, like I just sawt There were a lot 142 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: of elements about him that I thought were really good, 143 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: and he had a number of really good speeches. And 144 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: then something happened when I was watching him and he 145 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: stopped and they didn't let him out. And there was 146 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: that with her too. 147 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 2: She sort of had a lot. 148 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: Of fire, and then there was like a month in 149 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: the middle where you just didn't see her, And I 150 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: wonder if you could talk about that and what that 151 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: was and what you sort of saw that to be. 152 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 2: So that month you're talking about where she didn't do 153 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: any interviews, that's another mistake that the team will acknowledge 154 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 2: in hindsight privately whose idea was that and why? Well, 155 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 2: the thinking was, you know, for Walls, that he couldn't 156 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: do an interview until she did an interview, and with her, 157 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: they wanted to wait until the convention to introduce her. 158 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 2: They wanted to be able to divide to find that 159 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: story for themselves. Harris also, that. 160 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 1: Was it, by the way, a huge mistake. I think 161 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: we can all agree. 162 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: Well, the Trump campaign certainly used that time to get 163 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: out ahead to start this storyline that she was hiding, 164 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: and that contributed to this sense that you were hearing 165 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: from voters that they didn't know who she was. That 166 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: was that was valuable time that that the Trump campaign 167 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: was able to capitalize on instead of the Harris campaign. 168 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 2: The other reality that we learned in our reporting is 169 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 2: that Harris personally, this kind of comes from her prosecutorial training. 170 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 2: She requires a lot of prep Ye, I've heard that 171 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: how she works, and so the amount of time that 172 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: it took her away from the trail to prepare for 173 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 2: every one of those interviews, you know, there was a 174 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 2: trade off there also, and at first that wasn't a 175 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: trade off that they were as willing to make And 176 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 2: it was later on that they that they that they 177 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 2: decided either that they were going to take that time 178 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: away to do the prep or that she was going 179 00:09:58,200 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: to start doing interviews with less prep. 180 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that I had heard that she 181 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: really I mean, what I had heard was that she 182 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 1: didn't really like doing interviews, that she was much better 183 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: with debating, which you could I mean, she's a really 184 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: good debater. I thought she was a really good debater, 185 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: and that she took a long time to prep. That 186 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: she really wanted to prep like a prosecutor, which is 187 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: totally insane because you can't prep for an interview. You 188 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: just have to go in there and talk, you know. 189 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I think anyway, and certainly Donald Trump has 190 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: never prepped for anything in his life. What do you 191 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: think I want? Let's talk about the Trump campaign. It 192 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: strikes me that they really just put him in the 193 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: culture and took the idea that politics is downstream of 194 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: culture and just got him in everywhere. My sense is 195 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: that he just did everything and it worked. But was 196 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: there some method to the madness? 197 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: Yes, that was one of the one of the specific 198 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 2: things that they sent out to do. They called it 199 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: making him a cultural icon instead of a political figure. 200 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 2: And you know that very naturally to Trump. You know, 201 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 2: that's who he was for most of his life. He 202 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 2: was a celebrity. He was not a politician. And you 203 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: could see this as early on as the primary. You know, 204 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 2: he went to a frat house for a pregame before 205 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 2: a football game in Iowa. You know, do you know 206 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: a lot of seventy seven or seventy eight year old 207 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: politicians who could just show up at a frat house 208 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 2: and flip burgers. I mean, those kinds of settings really 209 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 2: played to his strengths based on the kind of personality 210 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 2: that he was for most of his life, and that 211 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 2: was actually an opportunity for younger, younger voters, younger audiences 212 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 2: to introduce them. You know, they didn't know that, they 213 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 2: don't remember Trump before he was the politician, and so 214 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: that was a really powerful way to reintroduce him. 215 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: You know what's funny is that I actually think that 216 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 1: a lot of politicians could do that if they let 217 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: them do that. But democratic politics, for whatever reason, and 218 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: I'd love you to like square this circle, because you 219 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: guys just wrote this book about the two campaigns. It 220 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: strikes me that the level of carefulness in the Biden Harris, 221 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: you know, like keep them cloistered, keep them safe, keep 222 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 1: them from speaking, is the largest sort of fuck up 223 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: because like, had you sent here's just I'm gonna give you. 224 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: This is my own hobby horse. But I'm gonna give 225 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: you I'm torturing you. I know, I'm sorry first the 226 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: tap re question, now this but but it's my podcast. 227 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 1: So but it strikes me that if you had led 228 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: Tim Walls or Harris do the number of interviews and again, 229 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: maybe they weren't THEO Vaughn might not have wanted to 230 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: have Harris on or and Joe Rogan may have. You know, 231 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: I've heard conflicting stories about what happened with the Joe 232 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: Rogan thing, whether he wanted her, whether that was too 233 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: far away, whether I mean, who knows, somebody told me that. 234 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so tell me. Let's tell me what tell me. 235 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 2: So it is so Walls had a lot more success 236 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: getting on podcasts than Harris, it's all. 237 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: Did they not want her? 238 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 2: Yes, they got a lot of no's, a lot a 239 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: lot of of of non political podcasts that have left 240 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 2: leaning audiences said no because they didn't want to bring 241 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 2: politics into the space. Like who the Travis and Jason 242 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 2: Kelsey podcast said no, That Bill Simmons podcast said no. 243 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: Oh wow, they couldn't get on Hot Ones either, Wow, 244 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: the Hot Sauce show, Hot Ones show. Yeah, I'm not 245 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 2: a podcast person. And and then you know, with Rogan, 246 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 2: it was a lot of back and forth, and Rogan 247 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,719 Speaker 2: wanted her to come do it in Texas, and so 248 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 2: they set up that rally in Texas. But then they 249 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 2: actually by the time they and they didn't really give 250 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 2: Rogan's team a heads up that they were doing that. 251 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 2: So then by the time they scheduled that, it was 252 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 2: almost too late. And finally Rogan offered the campaign of 253 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 2: time and they didn't take it. So it's a it's 254 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 2: kind of a missed connection. But yeah, it's a. 255 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: Fuck up on their part. Subway Takes guys said, he 256 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: thought she was so bad they killed it. They only 257 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: aired walls the Subway Takes guys, that's a podcast too, 258 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: so she so wow. Okay, yeah, so. 259 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: You know, you've you've you've heard democrats talk about this 260 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 2: asymmetry in the in the manosphere or the podcast right 261 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 2: that that you know, the the those those right wing 262 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: so called manosphere podcasts. You know, we were really happy 263 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 2: to bring Trump on and to get political in ways 264 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 2: that kind of either there aren't equivalents on the left 265 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 2: or the closest thing to equivalent equivalents on the left, 266 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: we're not willing to do. 267 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: This is such a crazy I had no idea. At 268 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: some point did they know they were going to lose 269 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: in Harris world, and when. 270 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 2: Our reporting is that their internal tra backing polls never 271 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 2: showed her ahead, They showed it very close in the 272 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 2: swing states up until the end. And she personally, you know, 273 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: she didn't write a concession speech. She was not expecting 274 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: to lose. They it did not feel to Harrison Walls 275 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: up through the last night, it did not feel like 276 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 2: a losing campaign. And that has to do with why 277 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 2: you didn't see her on election night. 278 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: Wow, I would love you to talk about something that 279 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: I have written about, have saw and have and am 280 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: really interested in. Would is this idea that people and 281 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: John mcgrache what a really good piece about this that 282 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: Trump voters wouldn't believe that Trump was going to do 283 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: the things he said he would do on the campaign, 284 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: that there was a suspension of disbelief among the voters. 285 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: Can you sort of talk to me about if you 286 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: saw reporting that spoke to this. 287 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 2: I think you have to distinguish between different parts of 288 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 2: the Trump coalition. You know, if you're going to a 289 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: Trump rally and talking to diehards, they absolutely take him 290 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 2: literally and they're absolutely thrilled about that. But you know, abortion, 291 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 2: you know, there are other issues and and other you know, 292 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 2: more persuadable voters that the Trump campaign was able to 293 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: to convert and and you know, we could look at 294 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: abortion as a good example of this, where you know, 295 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: the Democrats would attack him as supporting as being responsible 296 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 2: for overturning Robe Wade and and wanting to impose a 297 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 2: national abortion ban. And Trump came out with this position 298 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 2: of leave it to the states, and when presented when 299 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 2: when they presented that to these persuadable voters, they were 300 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 2: targeting those voters liked that position. So so there was 301 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: you know, there was an ability for voters to compartmentalize 302 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 2: with Trump. I think you know that they could that 303 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 2: they could vote for him because of immigration, or they 304 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 2: could vote for him because of the economy, and pay 305 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 2: less attention to the rougher edges that they weren't as 306 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 2: they weren't as focused on so interesting. 307 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us, Isaac. 308 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: That flew by, Thank you so much for having me. 309 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: Adam Becker is the author of More Everything Forever, AI Overlords, 310 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: Space Empires, and Silicon Valley's Crusade to Control the Faith 311 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: of Humanity. 312 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Adam. 313 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me, Molly, it's great to be here. 314 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: So you write about AI. It's great and we're not 315 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 2: going to have any problems. 316 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly that's the message of my book, that's right. 317 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 318 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 3: The book is called More Everything Forever because that's something 319 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 3: that we can have and it's a totally reasonable dream. 320 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, So talk us through this book. 321 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 3: So the basic idea is there's horrible and unrealistic visions 322 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 3: of the future that tech billionaires are taking very very 323 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 3: seriously as a roadmap for what we as a species 324 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 3: should do, or more properly, where they should steer us 325 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,959 Speaker 3: with their power to control the rest of us. And 326 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 3: these ideas generally involve going to space and living forever 327 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 3: under the watchful eye of an AI god. 328 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 2: Why do we have to go to space? 329 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really good question. There's essentially no reason 330 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 3: for it. 331 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: Okay, I mean, I like Europe, I like Los Angeles, 332 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: I like Chicago, But I don't want to go to 333 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: space particularly. I mean, I just don't even get it. Like, 334 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: am I stupid? Is that what's happening here? 335 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 3: No, you're not stupid. They want to go to space 336 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 3: because that's where they think the future is. Because that's 337 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 3: the future. Well, because that's what science fiction told them, 338 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 3: and they've confused science fiction. 339 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 2: For you, that makes sense, okay. 340 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, And so you know, Musk says that we need 341 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 3: to get off of Earth in order to save this 342 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 3: species and preserve the light of consciousness. And so he says, 343 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:08,959 Speaker 3: you know, he wants to put a million people on 344 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 3: Mars by twenty fifty and have that be a completely 345 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 3: self sufficient colony. That's not going to happen. There's just 346 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 3: no way it's going to happen. Mars is a terrible place. 347 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 3: The gravity is too low, the radiation's too high, there's 348 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 3: no air, and the soil is made of poison. It's 349 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 3: a terrible place. Yeah, and Mosco wants to put a 350 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 3: million people there. 351 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 2: Can he be one of a million people? 352 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 3: I mean, I would like him to be the first one. 353 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: You know, remember when Elan was like, I'm going to 354 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: dig a tunnel between New York and DC and it's 355 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: going to take seven minutes to get there. And I 356 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,479 Speaker 1: was like, yes, my man, because I would take a 357 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: tunnel that takes seven minutes to get from New York 358 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: to d C. 359 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 2: What happened with that? 360 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, so the hyperlop. He later essentially admitted that this 361 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 3: was an idea that he put out there because he 362 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 3: wanted to kill the high speed rail project in California. 363 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: Let the record show, I'm giving you a ironic thumbs up. 364 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, and he doesn't like public infrastructure, that's why he's 365 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 3: destroying it. 366 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: Oh good, good, just checking. Why doesn't he like public infrastructure. 367 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 3: Because it's harder to monetize and harder to control. 368 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good, just checking. Yeah, it makes me feel 369 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 2: much better. 370 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 3: I'm glad. 371 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. 372 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,479 Speaker 1: Basically this is all the fault of science fiction writers 373 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: in the seventies, like my father. 374 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 3: Uh sorry dad, Yeah, it's all you do a little bit. Yeah, yeah, 375 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 3: I mean I'm a huge science fiction fan. I love 376 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 3: science fiction. I grew up reading enormous amounts of old 377 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 3: science fiction, the same stuff that these tech billionaires read. 378 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 3: I think that sure, part of it is the fault 379 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 3: of the science fiction itself, but a lot of it 380 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 3: is also bad readings of that science fiction, like misunderstanding 381 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 3: it really badly. 382 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:52,959 Speaker 2: Say more on that. 383 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 3: So, for example, Peter Thiel, everybody's favorite person. 384 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, we love him. Yeah, he's a very are you 385 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 2: sweaty guy? Have you ever seen him? 386 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: Like? 387 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 2: Very sweaty? Go on? Hopefully you won't sue me for that. 388 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. You never know with Peter Diel, No. 389 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 2: You absolutely don't. We actually don't. For a long time, 390 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 2: we wouldn't say his name on this podcast. 391 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: We would just say that guy who sees a lot 392 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: of people like Devin Nuna's all right, go on, go on? 393 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, When Devin Nunas sued his fake cow love that 394 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 3: yeah No. Teal said in an interview with Maureen Daud 395 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 3: that he preferred Star Wars to Star Trek because he 396 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 3: thought that Star Wars was capitalist and that the plot 397 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 3: of Star Wars was driven entirely by Hans Solo owing 398 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 3: money to job of the Hut. This is not what 399 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 3: Star Wars is about. 400 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: Speak for yourself, I mean. 401 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 3: George Lucas said that he based the rebels in Star 402 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 3: Wars on the Viet Cong right and Teal is saying 403 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 3: that that's a capitalist story, so what is easy identifying 404 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 3: with the empire. He's also said that, you know, we 405 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 3: should base our plans for things on science fiction of 406 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 3: their fifties and sixties, and that the message of that 407 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 3: science fiction is that we should develop space, develop the oceans, 408 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 3: develop the deserts. I don't know. I read Dune a 409 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 3: couple of times. I don't think the message of Dune 410 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 3: is developed the deserts any more than the message of 411 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 3: Star Wars is build a death star and blow out planets. 412 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 3: That's awesome, And Teal is not the only one, right, 413 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 3: Musk has a long history of publicly misunderstanding science fiction 414 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 3: and sort of the rest of these guys. 415 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: Yes, I have to tell you that the idea that 416 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: they're reading science fiction wrong, it reminds me of Doge. 417 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 2: Right, so we have Doge. 418 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: They're cutting government contracts, and it turns out they're you know, 419 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 1: they're like reading the numbers wrong. They're publishing billion instead 420 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: of million. Right, they saved eight billions and million. You 421 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: know that they're just moving so fast and making a 422 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: lot of mistakes. Is that what's happening here? Or is 423 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: it this sort of intentional misreading in order to I mean, 424 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: like Peter Teal say what you will, is actually quite 425 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: smart and has done a lot of things that have 426 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: helped him, right, like suing Gawker. Again, I don't like 427 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: it for any number of reasons, but it was like 428 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: money that got him huge returns, right, it crushed Gawker. 429 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: It was like the beginning of the foray into destroying 430 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: the mainstream media. So he is very good at what 431 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 1: he does, whatever that is, I mean, in some ways. 432 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: But my thinking with him is that he's always just 433 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: so profoundly ideological that he can't see the forest from 434 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 1: the trees. 435 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's probably right. I think that these 436 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 3: readings of science fiction, these misunderstandings of science fiction, are 437 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 3: appealing to them because they allow these guys to believe 438 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 3: stuff that they already wanted to believe and do stuff 439 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 3: that they already wanted to do. Right, It's very very 440 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 3: easy to hang on to a misunderstanding of It's one 441 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 3: that justifies everything that you want to do and makes 442 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 3: you a lot of money. And I also think that 443 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 3: there's a reading comprehension problem. So I guess the answer 444 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 3: to your question is sort of both. I mean, I 445 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 3: think that for a lot of these guys, they don't 446 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 3: think clearly anymore. They have their own self interest and 447 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 3: these dreams that they have that are wildly unrealistic, and 448 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 3: they just sort of aim toward those and anything else 449 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 3: that they think of. It's just very easy for them 450 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 3: to fool themselves into thinking that they're being profound, that 451 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 3: they've understood what's going on around them, as opposed to 452 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 3: living inside of a bubble of their own creation. And 453 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 3: I sort of wonder if this is one of the 454 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 3: reasons why they're so easily taken in by the idea that, 455 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 3: you know, text generation engines chatbots like chat GPT are 456 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 3: actually thinking because they just string words together in a 457 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 3: way that sounds good to them, and that's what they've 458 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 3: confused for thought at this point, because they don't need 459 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 3: to think carefully in order to make their way through 460 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 3: the world anymore. 461 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: I can't tell them I'm being stupid. 462 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: I'm very old, and I've been around long enough to 463 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: see the blockchain. Everything's going to go on the blockchain. 464 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: Here's why things are going to go on the blockchain. 465 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: All of this sort of fads, right Crypto the first 466 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: time that producer Jesse the Voice of God and I 467 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: have an ongoing dispute over like, is AI going to 468 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: take all our jobs and ruin our lives or is 469 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: AI just going to go on the blockchain like everything 470 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: else that's trendy. That thing you just said about chat 471 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: GPT makes me think that AI is not. That stringing 472 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: words together is not. But do you think AI is 473 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: going to take all our jobs and render us useless 474 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: flesh puppets? 475 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 3: Yeah? I don't think that AI can do the jobs 476 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 3: that we do now particularly well. And I don't think 477 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 3: that AI can replace humans the way that people who 478 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 3: are saying that it will take all our jobs are 479 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 3: sort of worried about or hopeful for, depending on where 480 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 3: they are in the economy. But I also think that 481 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 3: that may not stop it from taking a lot of jobs, 482 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 3: because the decision about whether or not you replace humans 483 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 3: with AIS is not based on reality. It's based on 484 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 3: the perception of reality up in the executive suite. And 485 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 3: so if there's a mass delusion or a mass you know, 486 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 3: hysteria about losing the AI race or this thing can 487 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 3: really do what all of the you know, people who 488 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 3: work for me do, then the executives are going to 489 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 3: try firing everybody and replacing them with AI and see 490 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 3: if that works. And you know, they're already trying that 491 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 3: and it's not working very well. You know, there their 492 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 3: study after study showing that when companies try to use 493 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 3: AI to replace humans, it doesn't go very well. And 494 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 3: I think we're going to see more of that and 495 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 3: hopefully that leads to a world where AI is, you know, 496 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 3: a tool that is used for certain applications that it's 497 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 3: you know, okay at or even good at, and you know, 498 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 3: it doesn't doesn't end up permanently taking all of our jobs. 499 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 3: But it's also being used as an excuse for these 500 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 3: companies to do what they already wanted to do, right, 501 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 3: just like the space stuff, And that's part of why 502 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 3: the idea of this AI is so appealing. The companies 503 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 3: don't much like their workers, right, I'm shocked. Yeah, they 504 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,719 Speaker 3: don't want to have to keep paying their workers. They 505 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 3: don't want to have to deal with people who could 506 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 3: perhaps I don't know, organize and form a union and 507 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 3: start actually flexing their power. And so ideally what they 508 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 3: would like is to cut their workers out of the loop. 509 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 3: The AAI can't do that, but they'd like to believe it. 510 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: Can't, right, and that makes a lot of sense. These 511 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: tech role of arcs, billionaires whatever. Some of them are cowering, 512 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: very fearful, like Mark Zuckerberg. Some of them are embracing 513 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: Trump isam. I wonder if you could talk to us 514 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: about like we're already seeing. I think some of a 515 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: split between Musk and Trump. I think it's going to 516 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: be more or maybe not. So what do you think 517 00:27:58,880 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 1: is happening there? 518 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 3: Not sure what's happening between Musk and Trump specifically. I 519 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 3: think that Musk likes the idea of having that kind 520 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 3: of influence and power over the president, and Trump likes 521 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 3: that there's somebody sort of capering and cowering and meaning 522 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 3: himself publicly, and also someone who can take the flack 523 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,959 Speaker 3: for the things that Trump and his people want to do. 524 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 3: So as long as that relationship remains useful to both 525 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 3: of them, I think it's going to go on. We 526 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 3: may be seeing the end of its usefulness. Musk tried 527 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 3: to buy the Wisconsin judicial election for Trump and it 528 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 3: didn't work, And there's been a lot of blowback about 529 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 3: Doge and the things that they've done, and they've led 530 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 3: to a lot of court cases that the Trump administration 531 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 3: is lost, and so you know, perhaps they see the 532 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 3: others sort of coming to the end of their usefulness. 533 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 3: I mean, certainly, Musk has already gotten a lot of 534 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 3: what he wanted in terms of, you know, getting rid 535 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 3: of the regulatory structures that were threatning his businesses because 536 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 3: he does things that are illegal. 537 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 2: But many people are saying. 538 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, many people are saying that he does things 539 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 3: that are legal. So that particular relationship I think could 540 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 3: have run its course. I'm not sure, but in general, 541 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 3: the tech brolgarchs are very comfortable with the idea of 542 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 3: autocracy and fascism. They do not mind getting rid of 543 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 3: democracy because they see it as irrelevant. And there has 544 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 3: long been this dream in Silicon Valley of getting out 545 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 3: from under the thumb of the government and using their 546 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 3: technology to solve all problems. 547 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to be a cock eyed optimist here, 548 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: but I'm just curious, why do you think that they 549 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: don't care more about science. Trump Ism has canceled all 550 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: these government contracts there. I mean, Elon must made all 551 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: his money on science, you know, and other people's ideas. 552 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question. I think the answer is 553 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 3: they think that they do. They just think that scientists 554 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 3: aren't as good at science as they are. These guys 555 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 3: think that because they're the wealthiest people in history, that 556 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 3: makes them the smartest people in history. They think that, 557 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 3: you know, they know a lot about science and technology 558 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 3: because they run companies that build tech that's based on science. 559 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 3: But that's not actually how the world works, and they 560 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 3: are not scientists, and they actually don't know that much 561 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 3: about science. And so I don't think they see what 562 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 3: they're doing as an attack on science. They see it 563 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 3: as an attack on an entrenched power structure that threatens that, namely, 564 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 3: you know, the independence of academic science. They want science 565 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 3: to serve them, and they believe that they know what 566 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 3: real science will do. Mark Andresen one of these prologarchs, right, 567 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 3: He has said that he had this manifesto that he 568 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 3: put out about a year and a half two years ago, 569 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 3: and in that manifesto he said that, you know, he 570 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 3: and his fellow techno optimists were the keepers of the 571 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 3: real scientific method as opposed to you know, unaccountable academics 572 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 3: safe in their ivory tower. How does that work, Yeah, 573 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 3: that's a great question. I don't think that there is 574 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 3: a good answer there. I mean a lot of that 575 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 3: essay was Andresen, one of the most powerful people in 576 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 3: the world, trying to recast himself as the plucky underdog 577 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 3: against you know, scientists who are famously wealthy and powerful. 578 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 3: It's really a real misunderstanding of his place in the world. 579 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, just wild. 580 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: What can people who are not billionaires do to protect democracy? 581 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: If you were looking at this and you were saying, like, 582 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: what would the song be in your head from what 583 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: you know about this crow? 584 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 3: I mean, the long term solution I think is stronger 585 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 3: government regulation, stronger enforcement of anti monopoly laws. And I 586 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 3: would like to see at some point a tax on 587 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 3: wealth that you know, makes it impossible to a mass 588 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 3: as much wealth as these people have. I would like 589 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 3: to see a billionaire tax. You know that that says 590 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 3: that if you have more than, say, I don't know, 591 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 3: five hundred million dollars and the rest of that in 592 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 3: everything you've got over that it's got to go to 593 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 3: the government, because five hundred million dollars is enough for 594 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 3: one person. So mean, yeah, I know, I know people 595 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 3: think that I'm a Marxist. 596 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, people won't like that. 597 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 3: No, people won't like that, but I think it's a 598 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 3: good idea. 599 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: And what would you say, I mean, do you think 600 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: that they're going to like end elections. Do you think 601 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: that they're going to or you think this is a 602 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: slower role than that. 603 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 3: I think that they would like elections to go away 604 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 3: or be irrelevant for them. I don't know how quickly 605 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 3: that's going to happen. I think it's more likely that 606 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 3: they're going to try to continue to put their thumb 607 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 3: on the scale for the elections, right because because social 608 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 3: media already does a lot of that for them, Right, 609 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 3: Because the structure of social media makes it easier for 610 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 3: misinformation to spread, makes it easier for very silly, lowest 611 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 3: common denominator ideas to spread rather than having nuanced conversations 612 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 3: that we'd like to have in an informed democracy. And 613 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 3: then you throw in AI's ability to create misinformation on 614 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 3: scale at demand, and you know it's bad. I think 615 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 3: that they're going to keep doing more of that, and 616 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 3: that they're going to find other ways to sort of 617 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 3: use the levers of control of the government that they 618 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 3: have right now to make it harder to have free 619 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 3: and fair elections. 620 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. 621 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 3: Because that's easier for them to do than try to 622 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 3: end elections entirely. But I could be wrong. I wouldn't 623 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 3: be terribly surprised if somebody tries to stage like a 624 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 3: Reichstag fire type event to end elections. So I don't 625 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 3: have an easy answer on that one. But I do 626 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 3: know that the technology that these tech companies are building 627 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 3: and have been building, erodes the fabric of democracy, and 628 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 3: we're seeing the consequences of that now. Thank you, d 629 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Mollie. It's great to be here. 630 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 631 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 632 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 633 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 634 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.