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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff, your

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Speaker 2: weekly reminder that when there's bad stuff, there's good people

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Speaker 2: trying to not do the bad with the good and

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Speaker 2: the all the words that work together. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Margaret Giljoy, and my guest is James Hi.

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Speaker 3: James, Hello. I'm excited to be here for the final

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Speaker 3: and in a series of episodes, I know this is

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Speaker 3: gonna be the one with I mean, actually there's been

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Speaker 3: fun stuff in all of it. I tried to pace

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Speaker 3: it that way, you know, yeah. But here to help

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Speaker 3: produce it is Ian Hi Ian, Hey, Magbine, Hey, James, Hi.

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Speaker 1: Ian.

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Speaker 2: Our audio engineer is Daniel.

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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 3: Daniel, Hi, Daniel. Ian's just trying to make us wait,

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Speaker 3: Hi Daniel, thank you. Sorry. Just cut Margaret speaking, Just

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Speaker 3: be like a ten second silence.

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Speaker 2: Our theme music was written for us by Unwoman and

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Speaker 2: this is part four of our four part are about

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Speaker 2: resistance by Armenian folks to the genocide of the aforementioned

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Speaker 2: Armenian folks and where we last left our heroes, they

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Speaker 2: had just been through one and a half to two

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Speaker 2: genocides depending on how you count it, and a world war,

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Speaker 2: and things were rough. But at least a guy got shot.

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Speaker 2: I had a dream last night where I was like,

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Speaker 2: after the apocalypse, hanging out with a bunch of like

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Speaker 2: anarcho pacifists who were all like early Aughts style like

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Speaker 2: food and out bombs, kind.

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Speaker 3: Of hippie punks. M h, I'm familiar.

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Speaker 2: And I was like trying to talk to them about

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Speaker 2: how pacifism was working for them in the apocalypse, and

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Speaker 2: at one point one of them got caught, like stealing

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Speaker 2: a bunch of diesel fuel from like a bunch of

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Speaker 2: like let's say, chuds, and so he was like, well,

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Speaker 2: I guess I'm just gonna lay down and let them

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Speaker 2: kick me for a while until they get over it,

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Speaker 2: and then I'll try to be their friend. And in

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Speaker 2: the dream I was like, this is so stressful.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is a stressful scenario.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyway that it was some kind of subconscious being like, hey,

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Speaker 2: you're reading about a lot of heavy shit right now,

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Speaker 2: so let's see. Most cliff notes versions of this history

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Speaker 2: sort of treat the young Turks like they were done

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Speaker 2: after World War One, that their leaders had scattered to

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Speaker 2: the wind, and now they're leading quiet lives, no longer

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Speaker 2: able to hurt anyone, This is not true. The exiled

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Speaker 2: leaders were still coordinating Turkish nationalism in Turkey. There was

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Speaker 2: some conflict between them and like a general who was

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Speaker 2: still in Turkey, but like, we're not gonna get into that.

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Speaker 2: An armed rebellion started, a counter government was taking territory everywhere.

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Speaker 2: The exiled leaders were also into creating a pan Islamic

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Speaker 2: alliance to fight Russia and the West. Either of you

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Speaker 2: ever heard of pan Turanism?

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Speaker 3: No, I didn't think, like Persian.

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Speaker 2: So it's some wacky race science thing called pan Turanism,

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Speaker 2: which it is basically like, hey, there's this cool secret

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Speaker 2: master race that includes Turks and Arabs and Mongols and

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Speaker 2: also Finns and Hungarians.

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Speaker 3: Of course a natural combination of peoples.

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Speaker 2: There is some like language uralic stuff, but it's clearly

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Speaker 2: culturally distinct areas and like trying to harken back to

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Speaker 2: some like it's like the equivalent of being like the

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Speaker 2: Nazis and caring about arianism, but like meaning it in

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Speaker 2: a completely different way and meaning like literally from whatever.

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Speaker 3: I don't know about this shit. Yeah, anyway, the Nazis

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Speaker 3: did like to join themselves to ancient Greeks a lot.

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Speaker 3: I think that's more of a cultural thing than a yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so they're basically trying to come up with this

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Speaker 2: like pan, whoever we can get well. Different of the

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Speaker 2: leaders they actually kind of all hated each other at

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Speaker 2: this point, but they all had different ways that they

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Speaker 2: wanted to do it. The Exile leaders are still doing

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Speaker 2: their thing, and the ARF leadership was like, well, no

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Speaker 2: one got punished by the state. Besides, like a couple

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Speaker 2: of people like, how are we going to do this?

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Speaker 2: And someone at the ARF's ninth General Congress in nineteen

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Speaker 2: nineteen was like, or do we just kill them all?

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Speaker 2: Or we just find out where they live and then

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Speaker 2: shoot them intreasable? And this wasn't actually super popular when

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Speaker 2: it was first recommended. Overall, folks were more on the like,

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Speaker 2: I think our goal is to collectively not die. It's

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Speaker 2: the old is living well the best revenge? Or is

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Speaker 2: shooting a man in the street the best revenge conundrum?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Tailor's oldest time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so they did it the way that I think

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Speaker 2: you should deal with this kind of impasse, and.

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Speaker 3: They went for both. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: A small group with Garo, our bank occupier guy who

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Speaker 2: showed up a bunch of times as a politician. Later,

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Speaker 2: Garo ends up in charge of this quote special mission,

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Speaker 2: the Bullets into Brains mission. They wrote up lists of targets.

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Speaker 2: Some of the lists.

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Speaker 3: We have a bunch of the different lists or history does.

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Speaker 3: I don't have them.

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Speaker 2: That would be cool because on media should give us

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Speaker 2: budget to buy weird history artifacts and we can have

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Speaker 2: a museum of cool people.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I've been buying them with a budget that

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Speaker 3: they pay me. But that's just me being the way

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Speaker 3: to and died with money. I bought a Spanish Civil

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Speaker 3: War Republic stamp. Oh nice, that's pretty cool. Which one? Oh,

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Speaker 3: I don't remember. It's in my basement. I got to

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Speaker 3: go look at it. I have a bad memory, sick. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: they used them to raise funds a lot. They would

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Speaker 3: sell them in other countries too, like oh cool, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I bought a Spanish Civil War Republic rifle. That's cool.

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Speaker 3: That would be more what I would want, But you know,

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Speaker 3: it's pretty cool. I'll send you my little There are

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Speaker 3: some things you can look for, Margaret, and then you

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Speaker 3: can go in Gumbroker for hours, and then you can

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Speaker 3: get one over from the chid. He doesn't know what

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Speaker 3: he's selling.

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Speaker 2: My budget currently is at the Stamp Variety. There was

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Speaker 2: like recently a friend of mine was working for a

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Speaker 2: bookseller who had like a first edition I think it

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Speaker 2: was a Living My Life by Emma Goldman with like

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Speaker 2: a long inscription from Emma Goldman in the front. Oh wow,

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Speaker 2: and like I wanted it really badly, but it was

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Speaker 2: in the many thousands dollars category. And I'm into history,

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Speaker 2: but I feel like that level of history. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I actually think what Emma Goldman would want me to

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Speaker 2: do is give that money to food, not bombs, you know, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll be directly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Like if I was a museum, I would

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Speaker 2: talk about this differently, right, My personal collection doesn't need.

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Speaker 3: That, no, yeah, yeah. These things should come to you

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Speaker 3: as gifts from the friends.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, much like the gifts of bullets that they wanted

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Speaker 2: to insert directly into the brains at very high speed

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Speaker 2: of the people who had That's my transition back into

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Speaker 2: where I was at. So they put up gotually these

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Speaker 2: lists of names, and this included, of course the three Pashas,

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Speaker 2: plus a bunch of commanders, administrators, and the leaders of

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Speaker 2: that special organization that had done so much of the

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Speaker 2: killing number one target though, that's Talat Pasha, the Grand Vizier.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen twenty in Boston, the Arf Regional Conference christened

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Speaker 2: the whole thing Operation Nemesis because they're not a fucking

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Speaker 2: name in operation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Kind of straight out of Massachusetts as well. I'd

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Speaker 3: love to see it, yeah, yeah, real Megachusetts moment. It's

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Speaker 3: fun because, like there's so many different.

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Speaker 2: Ways that people tell this story, and one of them

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Speaker 2: is like, wow, Armenian exiles who weren't even there got

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Speaker 2: together and it was just some middle class Americans, and

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Speaker 2: it like divorces them from the political lineage that they

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Speaker 2: were part of. But there's still like a little bit

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Speaker 2: of truth to it, right, you know, You've got these

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Speaker 2: like immigrants and children of immigrants getting together in New

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Speaker 2: England to be like, all right, let's pull our money

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Speaker 2: together with our middle class jobs and do this.

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Speaker 3: You know. Yeah, I think it may well have still

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Speaker 3: been on the receiving end of bigotry for who they were, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: that's definitely not inconceivable in early twentieth century America.

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Speaker 2: It's true, although the stuff that I've read about presents

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Speaker 2: them as like being fairly attempted to integrate but I

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Speaker 2: do not know. I've also read more from like the

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Speaker 2: perspective of like their children, you know.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, yeah, who is more Americanized in that second generation? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The organizers of Operation Nemesis included a former editor of

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Speaker 2: a newspaper, an accountant in Syracuse, New York, and Garro

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Speaker 2: himself plus another general with twenty years of experience.

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Speaker 3: Is that the first accountant you've ever had on the podcast, Margaret?

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Speaker 3: It might be.

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Speaker 2: And it's cool because there's actually you can listen to

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Speaker 2: some of the other podcasts that are worth listening to.

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Speaker 2: There's an NPR did one where it's like the accountant's

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Speaker 2: like grandkid was going through his like stuff after he

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Speaker 2: died and found all of the documents of Operation Nemesis

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Speaker 2: and had never heard of it. Oh, he didn't tell anyone,

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Speaker 2: His wife didn't know.

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Speaker 3: He kept it.

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Speaker 2: The secret of running this thing to his grave incredible.

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Speaker 3: You'd think there'd be some temptation, like on the on

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Speaker 3: your deathbed if that person died in that way, to

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Speaker 3: be like, oh, by the way, yeah, we got him back.

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Speaker 3: Yeah that was me.

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Speaker 2: I'm a secret spy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the top up sec from that guy.

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Speaker 2: I know, I wouldn't last more than I'd be like

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Speaker 2: calling my lawyer every week, be like, what do you

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Speaker 2: think that the Statute of Limitations is on international conspiracies

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Speaker 2: digital heads of state?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to tweet it. Let me tweet it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, what if I go to Cuba, first.

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Speaker 3: City in Venezuela loggi on posting something and then wondering

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Speaker 3: what to do with the rest of your life? Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 3: And that's how you know I haven't gotten up too much.

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Speaker 2: All my petty crime is like in the stuff I

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Speaker 2: write about, you know, like and then I was out

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Speaker 2: of protest wearing all black. Anyway, So the Operation Nemesis

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Speaker 2: was financed by middle class Armenian Americans who may or

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Speaker 2: may not have known.

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Speaker 3: Where their money is going.

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Speaker 2: So the light way that people tell this story is

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Speaker 2: they talk about it as a story of revenge, and like,

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Speaker 2: that's true. It was vengeance, right, it's called Operation Nemesis. Well,

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Speaker 2: Nemesis doesn't actually mean revenge, right, Nemesis is actually a

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Speaker 2: more accurate word. It was a specific and important political

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Speaker 2: action that needed to take place. The people that they

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Speaker 2: were going to kill were actively working to further the

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Speaker 2: destruction of the Armenian people still, and maybe most importantly

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Speaker 2: in terms of its impact, was the attempt to restore

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Speaker 2: pride to the Armenian people. You will not survive ordering

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Speaker 2: our genocide. The thing that's so inspiring to me about

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Speaker 2: the story is how it's like, yeah, it's your wild

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Speaker 2: eyed revolutionaries that are part of a grew out of

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Speaker 2: libertarian socialist democratic socialist movement. And it's your middle class

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Speaker 2: Armenian American accountants, and it's your kind of disabled soldiers

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Speaker 2: who have visions, all working together, all deeply focused on

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Speaker 2: one mission that they pulled off against all odds. But

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Speaker 2: there's also another take if you zoom out even further,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to get into it a little bit

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Speaker 2: more about like geopolitics and all of it. The Western

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Speaker 2: powers in Russia let it happen and nudged it along.

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Speaker 2: They were happy to let Armenians do their dirty work.

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Speaker 2: But first they've got this whole plan. Now they've got

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Speaker 2: Operation Nemesis. They have a list. Now they need volunteers,

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Speaker 2: shortage of volunteers. The ads they put out in the

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Speaker 2: newspapers were like bachelor's only, because they're like, this is

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Speaker 2: a one way trip. We're asking you to go on,

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Speaker 2: you might die.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but what did the ad say though, and they

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Speaker 3: just wanted hitman bachelor's only need apply. I think they

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Speaker 3: were not like hit Man needed.

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Speaker 2: I think it was a little bit like, hey, Armenian exiles,

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Speaker 2: like come apply for some important stuff. But like if

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Speaker 2: it says bachelor's only, it is like a wink, wing, nudge, nudge,

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Speaker 2: we're giving you a gun and pointing you you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's not like you're going to be an accountant. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I actually think a lot of their op sec relied

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Speaker 2: on the fact that no one spoke Armenian.

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Speaker 3: They have built in encryption.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean later we'll talk about the encryption

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Speaker 2: they actually used. But the fact that Armenian was like

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Speaker 2: it allowed them to get away with even more I think, right. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Tillarian did not know about Operation Nemesis at first. He's

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Speaker 2: a there in Constantinople and so he's like, all right,

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Speaker 2: I figured it out. We should kill all of them,

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Speaker 2: and I should find rich Armenians to fund it. He

243
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Speaker 2: has basically tried a one man Operation Nemesis. He is

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Speaker 2: trying to build a parallel organization right because his mother

245
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Speaker 2: keeps coming to him in his dreams and is like, hey,

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Speaker 2: what's up, what are you doing? Yeah, you really got

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Speaker 2: time to play video games.

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Speaker 3: Very early, other video games. Yeah. Did he know at

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Speaker 3: this point did his family where they murdered in the genocide? Like,

250
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Speaker 3: so his father survived.

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Speaker 2: I'm a little bit confused because some of the way

252
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Speaker 2: that people write about it, they write about his visions

253
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Speaker 2: as if they're true, or like as if they're like literal,

254
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Speaker 2: Like I'm not quite sure whether his brother survived. I'm

255
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Speaker 2: under the impression that his family died, Okay, Yeah, And

256
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Speaker 2: like I I don't know, and I'm a little bit

257
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Speaker 2: annoyed that I don't know is the answer to that? Yeah,

258
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Speaker 2: Like at what point he was like sure they were

259
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Speaker 2: gone or what?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well that's part of the thing, isn't it. Like

261
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Speaker 3: I'm sure it takes away that closure in certainty totally.

262
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Speaker 3: But he might have had it, and I just might

263
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Speaker 3: not have read about it, even though I like kind

264
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Speaker 3: of tried to look a bit, you know. Yeah, for sure.

265
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Speaker 2: So he's going around and he's like trying to find

266
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Speaker 2: people to finance him in Constantinople, and then eventually he

267
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Speaker 2: moves to Paris, which is a classic place to go

268
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Speaker 2: bum around. He worked as a cobbler. He spent all

269
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Speaker 2: of his time fantasizing about how to kill Talat Pasha.

270
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Speaker 2: He didn't hang out with folks, He barely ate. All

271
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Speaker 2: he thought about was this and then basically Nemesis, without

272
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Speaker 2: telling him why, they sent him a telegram and a

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Speaker 2: ticket to Boston, plus a visa and passport in his name.

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Speaker 3: It just rolls up in the post one day, like

275
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Speaker 3: I think someone comes and gives it to him, okay,

276
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Speaker 3: because they have like a bunch of diplomats and shit

277
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Speaker 3: like that are part of Operation Nemesis, right, and so

278
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Speaker 3: they like have gotten him all the paperwork. It's not

279
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Speaker 3: even like I mean it's forged and that he didn't

280
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Speaker 3: apply for it, right, but it's like real paperwork. And

281
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Speaker 3: they've picked him to kill their number one enemy because

282
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Speaker 3: he's shown such initiative already and he seems to be

283
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Speaker 3: very focused and committed. All the other assassinations Nemesis wanted quiet.

284
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Speaker 3: This one they wanted done in public, and they wanted

285
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Speaker 3: the assassin to turn himself in so that he could

286
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Speaker 3: stand trial. This is how the Armenians would make their

287
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Speaker 3: case to the world.

288
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Speaker 2: And so folks met him in New York as soon

289
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Speaker 2: as he gets off the boat and they help him

290
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,400
Speaker 2: get on a train to Boston. He doesn't like any

291
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Speaker 2: of these people. They're all like having fun, right, you know.

292
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Speaker 3: And he's just like eyes on the prize.

293
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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like, what the fuck is wrong with everyone?

294
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Speaker 2: They pick him up in Boston, they drive him to

295
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,560
Speaker 2: the newspaper. Tullarian's grouchy. Everyone's talking casually about the whole thing.

296
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Speaker 2: He's just grim and driven. And eventually he meets people

297
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Speaker 2: where he's he meets Garro right, and he's like, oh, okay,

298
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Speaker 2: they have real revolutionaries here, right, They're serious. He wasn't

299
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Speaker 2: much of a spy. He was a soldier. He wrote

300
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Speaker 2: in his journal about how he wanted to grab people

301
00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,160
Speaker 2: and say to them, tell me where he is. I

302
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,960
Speaker 2: am a weapon. Aimy, which is a direct quote, and

303
00:14:59,040 --> 00:14:59,920
Speaker 2: it goes hard.

304
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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the just go hard. So they aimed him.

305
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Speaker 2: They put him on a steamship back to Paris, then

306
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Speaker 2: to Geneva, where arf got in paper saying he was Persian,

307
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,960
Speaker 2: and sent him to Berlin with a student visa, which

308
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Speaker 2: is where they were pretty sure Talt was living. His

309
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,840
Speaker 2: name was now Simon Tavicien a bunch of the genocidal

310
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,520
Speaker 2: fuckers were in Berlin. Actually, and when I say it's

311
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Speaker 2: like this big organization we're actually gonna talk about at

312
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Speaker 2: the end, it's about ten assassins and twelve spies and

313
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Speaker 2: a few other people, and they work in seven countries.

314
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Speaker 2: It's like, really impressive, honestly what they did with so

315
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Speaker 2: few people.

316
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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that's genuinely impressive. Yeah.

317
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Speaker 2: So Nemesis, including Tellurian, found a reasonably high up guy

318
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Speaker 2: pretty soon, and Tilarian was like, I should just kill

319
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Speaker 2: that guy. But then he's like, no, I need to

320
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Speaker 2: catch the bigger fish, right, you know, I need to

321
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Speaker 2: hold on to this thing. And the young Turks had

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Speaker 2: gone to Berlin because they had stashed a bunch of

323
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Speaker 2: gold and Swiss and German banks and they wanted access

324
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Speaker 2: to it. Yeah, and plus they couldn't go to France

325
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Speaker 2: because there's a ton of Armenians there and they're like, well,

326
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Speaker 2: definitely recognized and killed in France, and the UK won't

327
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Speaker 2: have them. And the Balkans were a bad place to

328
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Speaker 2: be Muslim, so a lot of them went to Berlin.

329
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Speaker 2: Someone went to Russia. We'll talk about that. The young

330
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Speaker 2: Turks were arguing about how to move forward. Enver Pasha,

331
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Speaker 2: for example, he was in with the Soviets and wanted

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Speaker 2: to work with them in return for power, waiting to

333
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,200
Speaker 2: bring the Islamic countries into the Soviet sphere. The Soviets

334
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,400
Speaker 2: were arming the Turkish nationalists who were fighting against the

335
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Speaker 2: British occupation. It's a lot wanted to ally with the British,

336
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Speaker 2: who were a capitalist nation who probably sold advertisements in

337
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,120
Speaker 2: the middle of history lessons you'd probably go to you

338
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 2: went to university. I have no idea if you went

339
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,760
Speaker 2: to university in Britain, but I'm sure they interrupted their

340
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Speaker 2: lectures to sell you bis skits.

341
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Speaker 3: Yeah, very very common. Yeah, tea, thank you, bask ma, mite, crumpets.

342
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Speaker 3: Those the four cardinal directions of British nests. Yeah, and

343
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Speaker 3: that's what we're advertised by is big crumpet. I don't

344
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Speaker 3: know what a crumpet is. You don't know what a

345
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,320
Speaker 3: crump it is? Oh great? Is it what I would

346
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:03,960
Speaker 3: call a biscuit?

347
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 1: No?

348
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,520
Speaker 3: No, no, okay, so no biscuits, cookie, Yes, that's correct,

349
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,000
Speaker 3: it's crump at a scone. No, No, crumpet is like

350
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 3: a bread product, but the top is all bubbly. The

351
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,360
Speaker 3: closest analogy is like a half English muffin, I think.

352
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,040
Speaker 3: But it's good because the top is all bubbly, so

353
00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:20,600
Speaker 3: it doesn't have like a crust on the top. So

354
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,399
Speaker 3: when you butter it, or you use your vegan substitute

355
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,200
Speaker 3: butter in our case, it sinks into the little bubbles,

356
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,240
Speaker 3: so it gets really buttery. That actually sounds really good.

357
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:32,960
Speaker 3: They're really good. Yeah, I think trade Joe sometimes has

358
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:34,400
Speaker 3: him in America.

359
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I'll give a crump at a chance and

360
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,760
Speaker 2: I'll toast you as I sorry, I know that it's

361
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,600
Speaker 2: really annoying. I was only easy ins because the UK

362
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:55,639
Speaker 2: came up and the thing and anyway, here's ads and

363
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,960
Speaker 2: we're back, and you missed a long conversation where James

364
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,919
Speaker 2: was defending the fact that the first floor is the

365
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:02,480
Speaker 2: second one.

366
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is correct. I am actually a person who

367
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,080
Speaker 3: very often gets lost on lifts still after fifteen years

368
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 3: and is God's saken country. It is one of the

369
00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:14,679
Speaker 3: one of the ways in which I have failed to

370
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Speaker 3: integrate as a migrant.

371
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Speaker 2: It's like the one thing that I'll like try and

372
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,679
Speaker 2: claim American supremacy on is the counting of floors. And

373
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Speaker 2: I actually I wonder if people only care about it

374
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:25,720
Speaker 2: so deeply because we get lost.

375
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,520
Speaker 3: You know, it impacts my quality of life. So yeah,

376
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Speaker 3: it's something that I've become like a I refuse to

377
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,280
Speaker 3: compromise on it. But where do you go to Spain, Margaret,

378
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,639
Speaker 3: and you have half floors? Oh my god, I've been

379
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,879
Speaker 3: to Spain, but I like, I didn't run across have floors.

380
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,560
Speaker 3: If you ever lived in a really shitty apartment building

381
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,639
Speaker 3: in Spain, they have floors. Yeah, Like when you go

382
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,480
Speaker 3: in the lift, instead of having a door, it's just

383
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,800
Speaker 3: like a mesh screen that you pull across. So like

384
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,800
Speaker 3: if you wanted to lose a limb at any point,

385
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,320
Speaker 3: you could just stick it out there and it would

386
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:55,280
Speaker 3: be gone. Yeah.

387
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been in the industrial elevators in the US

388
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,240
Speaker 2: or sometimes like that, like old warehouses and stuff.

389
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,680
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, that's exactly what it's like, except these

390
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,480
Speaker 3: ones are like the size of a coffin. Yeah.

391
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 2: That's how I feel about all elevators to me, is

392
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,240
Speaker 2: that they are all coffins. Oh, which is part of

393
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,560
Speaker 2: why everything's Oh I'm so American. I'm like everything's so

394
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,680
Speaker 2: small in Europe. I feel so constrained at all times.

395
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is funny to watch American people that direct

396
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,639
Speaker 3: with European things, whereas I am like, everything is so

397
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 3: massive in America. Why is it this big? Yeah, what's

398
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,040
Speaker 3: going on? It's still funny to my family will come

399
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,160
Speaker 3: here like fifteen years later and just be like, why

400
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 3: are there so many milks? That's fair, that's the thing. Actually,

401
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,919
Speaker 3: the left and right can come together on this issue, right,

402
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,200
Speaker 3: there are too many milks. Yeah, that's fair.

403
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 2: And it's because all the alternative milks. We're still trying

404
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,119
Speaker 2: to find the right and pure one that doesn't destroy

405
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,800
Speaker 2: the environment, and it such a thing doesn't exist because

406
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:55,360
Speaker 2: of consumption and capital anyway, This is a milk cast, yeah, James.

407
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,120
Speaker 2: So I don't even want to say my favorite milk

408
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,679
Speaker 2: alternative because it's like wrong somehow. All of them are

409
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,720
Speaker 2: one by one proven to be bad. Yeah, much like

410
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 2: countries where people fled to so Talat wanted to ally

411
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,159
Speaker 2: with the British. Both Talat and Enver were waiting for

412
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,479
Speaker 2: the dust to settle before they could go home to Turkey,

413
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,439
Speaker 2: and they'd be fighting for a pan Islamic alliance of

414
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,400
Speaker 2: Turks and Arabs. Enver actually doesn't get got by Operation Nemesis.

415
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,240
Speaker 2: He dies in the classic way to die when you

416
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:26,400
Speaker 2: ally with the Red Army.

417
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 3: Does he get.

418
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 2: Purged, which is that he was machine gunned by the

419
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 2: Red Army?

420
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,320
Speaker 3: Yeah? Classic? Was it like a conscious machine gunning of

421
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,200
Speaker 3: him or just a general bumblefuck?

422
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:37,959
Speaker 2: It was in a battle, this one. I actually can't like.

423
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 2: He did the betrayal.

424
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:39,800
Speaker 3: First.

425
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,399
Speaker 2: He tried to do some independence from Moscow and they

426
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,159
Speaker 2: were like, all right, we're going to machine gun everyone,

427
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 2: you know, Oh, okay, in a good fight whatever. I

428
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 2: didn't read enough about Edvers passing.

429
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, well he's dead. I just wanted to take potshots

430
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 3: at Bolshevism. Yeah, no, anytime you want, please. Yeah.

431
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 2: So Nemesis is after Talat Pasha and they had to

432
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 2: find one guy in a city of four million people,

433
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,679
Speaker 2: and they had almost no money with which to do it.

434
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,239
Speaker 2: They found him. They bribed border guards to tell them

435
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,320
Speaker 2: anytime Turkish nationals came and went. A diplomat, the Vice

436
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 2: consul of the Republic of Armenia was passing information using

437
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 2: diplomatic privilege across the world and they would write in

438
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 2: code and plus no one spoke Armenian anyway. So that

439
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,920
Speaker 2: helped some Armenians, fluent in Turkish without an accent, pretended

440
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 2: to be Muslim Turks and joined Turkish cliques at school

441
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,479
Speaker 2: to learning what they could be Like, hey, yeah, like

442
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 2: any important guys come over recently for no reason, just curious.

443
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 2: They're probably better at it than I would have been. Yeah,

444
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:46,159
Speaker 2: Tillarian was not a fucking spy. He could barely speak German.

445
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 2: He had no natural affinity for languages, and so as

446
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 2: Armenian friends, who had no idea he was an assassin,

447
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 2: made him take German lessons. They're like, oh, come on,

448
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 2: you're a student. He's like, not really a student, but

449
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 2: he's enrolled in order to have cover, right, Yeah, they're.

450
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 3: Like, you got to learn German.

451
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 2: And he's like, he wants to scream, like no, I'm

452
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 2: here to do a murder, you know, but he can't.

453
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,680
Speaker 3: That's not a good idea. Kids don't do that, listeners.

454
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 2: He struggled with friends. Friends tried to be friends with him.

455
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 3: It's actually kind.

456
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 2: Of sweet how hard people worked to include him. I

457
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 2: actually I find it really charming. Yeah, he didn't understand

458
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 2: anyone who wasn't buried in deep mourning. His friends once

459
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 2: dragged him out to dance. This is the most humanizing

460
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: thing ever. They dragged him out to dance lessons against

461
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 2: his protestations, and then he was so overcome by stress

462
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 2: that he fainted, and so then he didn't have to

463
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 2: go to dance lessons anymore. Yeah, we get on the

464
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 2: friends for trying their best there.

465
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 3: I know, I know.

466
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: Slowly Nemesis made progress. One day, while watching a Turkish

467
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 2: tobacco shop, he found the leaders of the special organization

468
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 2: that had done so much of the killing. He followed

469
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,040
Speaker 2: them for miles. They went into the British embassy, and

470
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 2: then he fainted and he lost them. He felt like

471
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 2: he was losing his strength. He's getting sicker and sicker,

472
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: and he's trying to convince Nemesis to just let him

473
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 2: kill those two leaders. He's already found, right, He's like, ah,

474
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 2: my day's are numbered as a successful assassin guy, you know.

475
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 2: But to Nemesis, the whole point is the killing in

476
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 2: a public trial, and they needed to lot. Finally they

477
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 2: got their Break's a lot in disguise without his mustache.

478
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,199
Speaker 2: It's like classic disguise, I know, but it like worked.

479
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 2: They're like still not sure. For a really long time,

480
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 2: you know.

481
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 3: Like, why would this do do this for himself? I

482
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 3: have to find a picture of him with his mustache

483
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 3: now and just check out like the yeah, yeah, yeah, okay,

484
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 3: that is a prominent tash. Yeah wow, yeah he already

485
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 3: went Fred points Yeah. Yeah. It's clearly in an integral

486
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 3: part of his whole vibe, so I can see why

487
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 3: he would look different without it. Yeah.

488
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 2: He has a very thick handlebar mustache that has curled

489
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 2: up at the ends that looks like he's spending some

490
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 2: time in Yeah, and it is like thicker than my

491
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 2: head hair.

492
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's impressive. It looks like a slug, yeah,

493
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 3: banana slug living on his lip there.

494
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 2: And he's like very it's like kind of like how

495
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 2: he's known, you know.

496
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah. And so they see him at this train

497
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 3: station because some young Turks are off on their way

498
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 3: back to Turkey, right, and so they follow them there

499
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 3: and then there's this huge Turkish man who's off to

500
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 3: see them off, and so an Armenian who looks western

501
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 3: eavesdropped and they didn't suspect him of understanding them, right,

502
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 3: because they're like, oh, we're speaking Turkish, No one can

503
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 3: understand what we're saying, you know, right, yeah, and folks

504
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 3: called him Pasha and this wasn't proof. A lot of

505
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 3: people are getting called Pasha, right, Okay, you're going to

506
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 3: say this seems like a fucking stupid thing to stick

507
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 3: with that, like the honorifically you gave yourself.

508
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 2: I can't remember if in parts wad or too whether

509
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 2: I talked about Pasha being an honorific Yeah you did,

510
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 2: you mentioned it in me in one okay, cool, but yeah, no,

511
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 2: totally it is. It was absolutely stupid of them, but

512
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 2: it was like had started to become more of the

513
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 2: style just kind of call it everyone that apparently, or okay,

514
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,719
Speaker 2: I don't know. That's at least what they argued when

515
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: they were like I had to have been him, they

516
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 2: said Pasha, and then people are like, no, just anyone

517
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 2: will say that these days.

518
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 3: You know.

519
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't proof, but it was likely. They followed

520
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: him home to his apartment building, and so now they

521
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: know where he lives. They just don't know it's him.

522
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 2: They sent someone around to pretend to want to rent

523
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 2: a room in the same building, and they chatted up

524
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 2: the landlady. You know, at the time, it's like a

525
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 2: lady owns a house and has three rooms in it

526
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 2: and rents them out right. Yeah, and this tenant was

527
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 2: a businessman whose room had been rented for him by

528
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 2: the embassy, which is not how businessmen normally have their

529
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 2: rooms rented.

530
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 3: No, that's an unusual one.

531
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 2: So Tillarian starts stalking this man, basically following him everywhere,

532
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 2: learning his schedule. He's like every day at ten am

533
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 2: he comes out and goes on a walk, and he's

534
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 2: ready to kill the guy. He's like, all right, we

535
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 2: got him, Like probably him, let's just kill him again.

536
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 3: Very poor persek that like having a daily routine where

537
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: you do exactly same thing at the same time. Not

538
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 3: a good way to avoid assassination. No, well, and actually

539
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 3: one of his whole things. I don't think I put

540
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 3: this in the script.

541
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 2: He kind of like a day or two before he died,

542
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 2: the Brits who were setting him up to kill him, Yeah,

543
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: were like, aren't you worried about assassination? And he's like, no,

544
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 2: you can't go through your life living that way.

545
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 3: You're king.

546
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: I'm both it, yeah, like fucking yolo and that shit

547
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: right is great?

548
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, it just in the moment, Yeah, self, fund know

549
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 3: where to be seen, et cetera.

550
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and his friends are like, look, you can't kill

551
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 2: that man because we don't know it's him, and you

552
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: cannot kill an innocent man by accident, And like, you know,

553
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 2: I'm like telling this whole long story about like a

554
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: bunch of killing, right, And I keep using the word

555
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 2: murder just because it's a fun word. Yeah, but it's

556
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not murder, right. And more than that,

557
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: it's like there is a difference.

558
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: You know.

559
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: People are like, all violence is violence. It's just not true.

560
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: And everyone knows that on some level, you know, Yeah,

561
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 2: it would be wrong to kill an innocent man that

562
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: you think is your target. Whereas if all you care

563
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 2: about is geopolitics, I'll kill a bunch of them. And

564
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 2: as long as you got the right guy too, who cares.

565
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 3: You know. Yeah. So I I really respect Operation Nemesis

566
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 3: for this, And I don't know how it would have gone.

567
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 3: It's quite possible that the Armenians would have eventually confirmed

568
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 3: his ID or just gone for it anyway, that's possible. Yeah,

569
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,959
Speaker 3: But what almost certainly happened is that Western powers who

570
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 3: knew where he was were like, yeah, let's just tell

571
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 3: the Armenians where he is, they'll take care of him.

572
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 3: Because Talat Pasha had been meeting with the Brits to

573
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 3: try and like play forty chess or whatever. You know.

574
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, he told them, look, we're ready to get the

575
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 2: Islamic Soviets to revolt against the USSR if you support us.

576
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,239
Speaker 2: If you don't support us, we'll fucking kill you all

577
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 2: in Turkey and drive you out, British bastards. The Brits

578
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 2: were like.

579
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 3: We literally just beat you in a war. I'm not

580
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 3: afraid of you.

581
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: I mean, there is an ongoing war happening in Turkey,

582
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: and like the Brits are like not totally winning it, right,

583
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: but like the random British spies are not fucking scared

584
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 2: of this dude, And so what the Brits do? This

585
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: is like one of those moments where you realize that

586
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 2: like the Western world hates the non Western world far

587
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: more than they hate each other. They go to the

588
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 2: Soviets and they're like, hey, the Pasha's you know, the

589
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: young Turks are planning to fucking do an uprising. How

590
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 2: should we play this?

591
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: Right?

592
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 2: And the Soviets are like, yeah, all right, let's fucking.

593
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 3: Kill the guy.

594
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: I just tell the Armenians where he is and take

595
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 2: care of that.

596
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, the loyalty of states is always going to

597
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 3: be to states, not people, right, Like totally see this,

598
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,239
Speaker 3: Like when you look at the war in BM. I'm

599
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 3: writing a book about anarchists at war right now, and

600
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 3: you look at the an s well, right when the

601
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 3: conflict goes from being between states to about the state, right, yeah,

602
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 3: when what is at stake it's not who will be

603
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: in charge, but that someone will be in charge. You

604
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 3: see the world pivot really fucking quickly away from all

605
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: these so called systems of alliances and blocks and organizations

606
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 3: and treaties and such. Should everyone's just like no, we can't.

607
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 3: Like every state starts to to want things right not

608
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 3: to happen, And yeah, that's what they're doing here. I

609
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 3: guess they always look out for each other first. No, totally.

610
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: And in this case, it's like we're more afraid of

611
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 2: the scary pan Islamic you know, scary other than we

612
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 2: are of this thing that we claim with all of

613
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: our hearts. Is like all that matters is communism versus

614
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: I mean, you can see it, and I.

615
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: Know we're mostly trying to avoid talking about coron events.

616
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: You can see it in current events where buying and

617
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 2: is trying to be like, hey, Trump is basically Hitler

618
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: Project twenty twenty five is real bad and then immediately

619
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 2: is like, well soon we'll stop all campaigning, you know.

620
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's uh yeah, I guess it's.

621
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: Similar because when they say like, we cannot have political

622
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: violence in this country while in the middle of enacting

623
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: the genocide against Palestine, what they mean is you can't

624
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: kill politicians because I'm a politician. Yeah, you know, yeah,

625
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 2: it's bad for all politicians, and so their loyalties are

626
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 2: class loyalties essentially. Yeah, we would not be the first

627
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 2: to note the disparity between political violence is terrible. What

628
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: we send five hundred pound bombs to it throughout every

629
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,719
Speaker 2: fucking week. Yeah. So the Brits are more afraid of

630
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 2: Islam than they are of the USSR. They don't want

631
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: Islamic revolt in their territories like India, and they also

632
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: don't want Islamic to revolt in their territories that lead

633
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: to India. The King of England has more Muslim subjects

634
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: at this point than any monarch in the world. I

635
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: think now that the Ottoman empire has gone, and so

636
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 2: like Ariel don't want them revolting. This feels similarly they

637
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: have a ton of Islamic Soviets and they don't want

638
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: to lose them. We are not one hundred percent sure

639
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: that this is how Nemesis got confirmation. We know the

640
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: Brits and the Soviets were like, let's let the Armenians

641
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 2: kill him. And we also know that a few days

642
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 2: later Tilerian got a ciphered telegram from Nemesis like headquarters

643
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 2: in Geneva, saying like, yup, he's our guy, Go get

644
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: him Champ, you know. And then my favorite way that

645
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: we know, the British spy, the one who was going

646
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 2: to meeting with Talat, he kept a detailed daily journal

647
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 2: every day except the assassination. I just took a day off,

648
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 2: and then the next day he's like, huh the newspapers

649
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 2: told me Talats dead.

650
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah, oh, just got back from my holiday and

651
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:48,239
Speaker 3: found this.

652
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is still better that opsect than what we've

653
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 2: been talking about earlier.

654
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, yeah, yes, yeah, it's true. Still the unspectacular.

655
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 2: It is very frustrating living a life where you're like

656
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 2: I can't keep a proper journal, because you know, like.

657
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, occasionally I'm complicit and murder.

658
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I feel reasonably confident that this is

659
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 2: what happened, is that they were like, yeah, he's your guy.

660
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: As soon as they had this confirmation, Telearian is like, man,

661
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: you know what I need. I need to buy stuff,

662
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: just sweet products and services, like a new apartment or

663
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,719
Speaker 2: whatever's advertised next, like these ads.

664
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, he just begins to be a happy consumer. Yeah,

665
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 3: and we're back. He got at least one of those things.

666
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 3: You got a new apartment. Sweet.

667
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 2: Telearrian moved apartments to be across the street from his quarry.

668
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: He told his landlord that the reason he was moving

669
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: on short notice is that the gas light in his

670
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: old apartment was affecting his conditions like epilepsy, and so

671
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: he needed to be somewhere with electric light. There is

672
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: a gas lighting, n hear, and I don't know where

673
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 2: it is noted in his new spot. Tileririan just stayed

674
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: vigil at the window, watching all hours of day and night,

675
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 2: scarcely sleeping. He'd leave his food on, he'd like fall

676
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: asleep at his post.

677
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: Like oh yeah, this dude does have a tremendous amount

678
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 3: of focus and drive. So it's genuinely quite quite impressive

679
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 3: and concerning.

680
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 2: I have never read about anyone quite this single minded, you.

681
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 3: Know, Right, the whole years of his life, he's literally

682
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 3: cared for nothing else.

683
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he has gone to four countries at least

684
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: in the process already, right, you know. And so the

685
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: plan is simple. He's going to kill him and then

686
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: he's going to stay by the body so that he

687
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 2: can be arrested and go on trial. He's going to

688
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: deny the conspiracy. He's not going to bring up the conspiracy,

689
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: but he's going to say he's an angry Armenian who

690
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: saw him and was overcome with anger. The next morning,

691
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: a lot came out. Tilarian headed down to go to

692
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 2: a shooting. The lock on the front door of his

693
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: place is broken, and he's like, oh no, and he's

694
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 2: like trying to break it open, and he finally has

695
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: to go wake someone up to help him open it. Yeah,

696
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 2: and then it's too late, and so he's like, Okay,

697
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: I'll wait for this guy to come back. He comes

698
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 2: back at the same time, right, right, He doesn't come

699
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: back that day. Tilarian loses his fucking mind. Right, He's like,

700
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 2: it's blown. He saw me in the window. I fucking

701
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 2: ruined it. I am the disgrace to everything, you know.

702
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 2: In the end, it was probably for the best that

703
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 2: this happened because he hadn't cleaned up his place of

704
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 2: all the notes and evidence yet. Oh yeah, you want

705
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 2: to do that, so yeah, I know he should have

706
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,439
Speaker 2: done it sooner, but he did it in time. Yeah,

707
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 2: he was busy with his window stuff. Yeah, exactly. He

708
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 2: sent a friend away with all the evidence and then

709
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 2: resumed his perch and then Tlot didn't.

710
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 3: Show up for days.

711
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: Ooh, and Tilearian is like losing his mind.

712
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

713
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 2: What actually happened is that it's a lot left town

714
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 2: to go meet with the Brits. And this is when

715
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 2: the Brits were like, aren't you afraid someone's gonna kill you?

716
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 3: And he's like, nah, not me. Yeah, I tell that

717
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 3: passa no, sir.

718
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: No.

719
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 2: A man who's not afraid to shave off a mustache,

720
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: ain't afraid of death.

721
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 3: Ego suicide was when you take mustache.

722
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 2: Yeah that's right.

723
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 3: I'm not the left to lose. Yeah yeah, yeah, just

724
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 3: living free.

725
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 2: And then finally one day he's back home and he's

726
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: back on his schedule with a ten am walk, and

727
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 2: I think it's like he goes out to buy like cigarettes.

728
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 3: In the newspaper or something. Okay, yeah, classic nineteen twenties

729
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,479
Speaker 3: European guy vibe. Yeah no, absolutely, yeah, small coffee. Yeah.

730
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 2: I mean it's like, look before you know that cigarettes

731
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,959
Speaker 2: are bad for you. It's the good life. I'm gonna

732
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 2: leave every day at ten in the morning and go

733
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: read what's happening, walk around a nice city like, oh.

734
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's great till someone shoots you in the face.

735
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 3: He still smiles.

736
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, he didn't have too long to think about what

737
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 2: was happening.

738
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Drew. He was happy he was doing what

739
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 3: he loved. Yeah, exactly, smoking or reading in his paper. Yeah.

740
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 2: Tilarian slips out when he sees him. He walks parallel

741
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: to the murderer, like across the street for several blocks

742
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 2: because he's like, okay, I need to get ahead of him,

743
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 2: I need to come around, I need to confirm for

744
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 2: certain I need to look him in the face. I

745
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 2: think a little selfishly, he's like, I want to look

746
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 2: this man in the face. But most importantly he's like,

747
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: I am killing the right man. I need to have

748
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: visual confirmation that this is my target, you know. Yeah,

749
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 2: So he walks a little bit faster for several blocks,

750
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: crosses the street, turns around, walks towards him, so a

751
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 2: lot Pasha never saw it coming. Tilarium saw him face

752
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 2: to face for positive id held a luger to his

753
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,919
Speaker 2: head just under the ear. One shot blew his brains out.

754
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 2: There's a ton of witnesses. Pretty immediately he flees because

755
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: the crowd's mad. And then he like gets like a

756
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: block or two and he's like, shit, I'm not supposed

757
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: to run. That's like the whole fucking thing, you know.

758
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 2: So he like stops and he's caught up. The angry

759
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 2: mob catches up with him and like kicks him and

760
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 2: you know, starts beating him up pretty bad. He winds

761
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 2: up in custody, like some cops break it up, and

762
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: then they like bring him back to the body and

763
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: he's like, yeah, I did it, like take me at

764
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,720
Speaker 2: jail whatever, you know. Yeah, and then he's on trial

765
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 2: really quickly. And this is a huge, huge deal of

766
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: a trial for obvious reasons. Yeah, it only lasts three days.

767
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 3: Wow.

768
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 2: His defense was the old fuck that guy argument.

769
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 3: Classic.

770
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 2: So at this point he makes up a story. He

771
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 2: describes in detail all the horrors of witnessing his own

772
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 2: family be massacred and how he barely escaped through the

773
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 2: mountains and you know, like I was on the death march,

774
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: and a lot of details about all these horrible things

775
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,919
Speaker 2: that happened, you know, and it was all a lie.

776
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 2: But he was telling the truth about what had happened

777
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 2: in Meia, right, or to Armenians.

778
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 3: Right, He's just like making a composite character.

779
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, he had seen brutality, but his cover story was

780
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 2: a lie. The goal was to bring the eyes of

781
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: the world onto the atrocities of the genocide. But if

782
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 2: they found out he was just an assassin working for

783
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 2: a conspiracy, he will surely hang and it'll kind of

784
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 2: undermine some of the sort of moral high ground that

785
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 2: the Armenians are presenting themselves to have. Yeah, one of

786
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 2: the reasons the trial went so well for him is

787
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 2: that Germany wanted him to get off.

788
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: That will help.

789
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 2: The geopolitics angle is like, it's like the less fun angle,

790
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 2: but it helps. It's important to understand. Yeah, Germany is

791
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 2: newly a republic and they're like, oh my god, I

792
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 2: swear to god, we had nothing to do with the genocide.

793
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 2: I was all the Ottomans, they're bad. I mean, look

794
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 2: at them. There can we use orientalism here? Is that allowed?

795
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 3: I think so? And they're bad, We're good. We're good.

796
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 2: Germans would never hurt anyone, We'd never do a massmer

797
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 2: We're Germany. Funny in retrospect.

798
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 3: To be fair, they were the wim Germans, you know,

799
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 3: maybe different Germans, that's true. They were quite nice in

800
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 3: many ways.

801
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, one of the more interesting republics in history.

802
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true. Not the longest lasting.

803
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 2: No, the Germans couldn't afford to let the trial delve

804
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 2: into their complicity, so they were like, we're not going

805
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 2: to get super deep into all the details, you know,

806
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 2: and we're gonna do this quickly. And so the prosecution

807
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 2: was like, well, the Turks are really bad, so of

808
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 2: course this guy had to kill him.

809
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 3: Amazing. Yeah read dub for like a district attorney. Yeah, yeah,

810
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 3: I get it, dude, Like what we don't do the

811
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 3: same totally.

812
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 2: Like I think they were like a little bit like

813
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 2: and he probably shouldn't, you know, but I mean they

814
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: they were like, yeah, absolutely, it's fine. The defense and

815
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 2: the prosecution were on the same side of this because

816
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 2: the defense's argument was yes, he did it and he

817
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 2: should have, and the defense was incredibly well funded. This

818
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 2: is like Operation Nemesis was a little bit shoe string

819
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 2: and like had some money. Armenian expats just drop like

820
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 2: all their money on this case. Like I fucking would, yeah,

821
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 2: you know, one hund Like I'd mortgage my house to

822
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: get this man off if I'm an Armenian expat at

823
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 2: this point.

824
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, he's the one guy who has get

825
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 3: like you said before, not only got revenge, that's one thing,

826
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 3: but like stop this shit happening again or whatever. Yeah,

827
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 3: toxic shit they were on next, you know, like, yeah,

828
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 3: he struck a blow for the for your side.

829
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like you just kind of can't do this.

830
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: You can't kill all of us without dying, you know.

831
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: Yeah.

832
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 3: He made it so that if you kill Armenian people,

833
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,439
Speaker 3: that's consequences, like yeah, yeah.

834
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 2: His defense described how he was sickly, how he'd started

835
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: fainting after the massacres he'd seen, and this is true.

836
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,439
Speaker 2: Witnesses would talk about seeing him faint in public at

837
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 2: no point where they like, hey, uh, how come you're

838
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 2: not actually in class, or hey, uh, why do.

839
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 3: You have a gun? Yeah?

840
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 2: You know, like they just like don't ask these questions. Yeah,

841
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 2: they're the like subtext here is that I think Germany

842
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 2: also knew about Operation Nemesis, right, and uh, witnesses came

843
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 2: to testify about the genocide and this is their chance

844
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 2: for media. And there are some details that were said

845
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 2: during this that I'm not going to share that are

846
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: even worse than the stuff I read last episode horror

847
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 2: movie bad instead of war movie bad. Is what some

848
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 2: of the stuff that happened was. There were a bunch

849
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 2: of star witnesses who came who had known to Lot personally,

850
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 2: who were all on the like fuck that guy level, right,

851
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 2: Like three people who knew him came to be like, yeah,

852
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 2: but fuck that guy. There was this Westerner who had

853
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 2: written a bunch of books about the previous massacres, the

854
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 2: eighteen nineties massacres that you know, led to the attempted

855
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 2: assassination of the Sultan. Yeah, and then the highest ranking

856
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 2: German military officer in Turkey during the war came and

857
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 2: testified about Like, yeah, but fucked a lot, right.

858
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 3: It's a real like avengeous moment.

859
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: And it was a very like because we were good

860
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: and us we had nothing to do with it.

861
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, we couldn't stop. There's nothing we could do.

862
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, I swear I will throw him under the bus

863
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 2: at the first available. Oh look, he's already under the bus.

864
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 3: I did that. Let's stump on him now, yeah, I mean, like,

865
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 3: good on him whatever, you know, I mean he should

866
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 3: have stopped the China, say what was happening? Fuck him?

867
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: But like you know, and then there was this Armenian

868
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 2: bishop who came from England to testify. You know, it's

869
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 2: like this three day trial that happened right away. Like

870
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 2: obviously this bishop was immediately like I am on the

871
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 2: next fucking boat.

872
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah he was. He had a suitcase backed yeah yeah,

873
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 3: because you couldn't. He doesn't even have a plane back

874
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 3: then He's get on a boat yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,

875
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 3: a man was rowing. He was ready to go. Yeah.

876
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: Immediately starts skiffing it across the channel, you know.

877
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's just waiting at the belt of the Dutch border.

878
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 2: You know, the entire time the whistle blows.

879
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 3: He starts running. He starts running. He's like a like

880
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 3: a trathlete or something comes out of the water immediately runs.

881
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 2: Later, I think, I think I didn't put this part

882
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 2: in the script. Later, this Armenian bishop helps smuggle to

883
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 2: Leri into England.

884
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 3: Hell yeah.

885
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 2: And so after three days of testimony, the jury goes.

886
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,959
Speaker 2: It takes them less than three hours to agree, Fuck

887
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 2: that guy is a legitimate excuse for killing this man.

888
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 2: He was not a criminal. He was a hero, which

889
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 2: I mean is true. And the courtroom exploded into applause

890
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 2: and like women ran forward with flowers. The New York

891
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 2: Times headline was they simply had to let him go

892
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 2: with an exclamation mark. But that one's like messy, it's

893
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 2: a little bit like it's actually trying to grapple with

894
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 2: some interesting stuff where they're like, how do we cope

895
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 2: with the fact that you're never supposed to assassinate people?

896
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 2: And that's wrong, but not killing this man would have

897
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 2: been wrong too. We don't understand, you know.

898
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess there's a difference between like we shouldn't

899
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 3: lock this man up or hang him and hell yeah, assassination.

900
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 2: Right, totally and clearly a lot of people are like,

901
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 2: hell yeah, assassination.

902
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is understandable. Yeah.

903
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 2: And then after the trial, Delarium was deported to Turkey.

904
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 2: They were like, yeah, he got got out of here

905
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: by way of Serbia. He didn't go to Turkey. As

906
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 2: soon as agains a Serbia focks off with that bishop

907
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: and gets to England nice. And then he gets to

908
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 2: the US and he basically goes on this like whirlwind.

909
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 2: Yeah fuck yeah, I killed that fucking guy. He took

910
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 2: a victory lap. Yeah, he takes a victory lap around

911
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 2: the US, around the Armenian diaspora, and then his mental

912
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 2: health is better.

913
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 3: I was wondering that, like he had this mission, Like

914
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 3: what's he going to do after his mission to done?

915
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 2: There's like photos of him smiling. I don't know whether

916
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 2: epilepsy and stuff stopped. He dies of a seizure eventually,

917
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 2: so I like, obviously actually don't know enough about medicine.

918
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: Does seem like they'd be related to me because they're

919
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 2: brain stuff, but I don't actually know. But yeah, his

920
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: mental health improves, he retires from the Assassin game because look,

921
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 2: if he is ever caught killing anyone ever again, this

922
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 2: blows the entire conspiracy, right.

923
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, he's.

924
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: Done his work, you know, Yeah, he's hit the target

925
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:29,479
Speaker 2: if he wants to hit Yeah, He also never wants

926
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 2: to kill anything again. Oh wow, including animals. He later,

927
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 2: at some point he joins a gun club and he

928
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 2: refuses to go hunting because he says, I'm never going

929
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 2: to kill anything over again. I genuinely really like this man.

930
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, these guys seem to be pretty right on.

931
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 2: He goes back to Serbia, he reconnects with his father.

932
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: He reconnects to that woman at the very beginning where

933
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 2: I was like, and then he kind of had this

934
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 2: you know.

935
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 3: Oh, then they had to be chased for the revolution.

936
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I'm actually secretly glad for because she was

937
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 2: like fifteen, but like, yeah he was eighteen, Like I'm

938
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: not mad, yeah yeah, yeah, like byoth children. Okay, yeah

939
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: he was not a creep. Yeah no, yeah, he was

940
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 2: chased for the revolution. He comes back and like he

941
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 2: writes a lot in his journals about how he's like

942
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 2: he needs to like prove that he's like worthy, you know, for.

943
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 3: Her and stuff, you know.

944
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he marries her, ah, and they have two kids,

945
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 2: and he starts working in his family's coffee wholesale trade

946
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 2: with his father. And like, I think his either uncles

947
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 2: or maybe like uncles in law or something. I didn't

948
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 2: write that down, and then they end up moving in

949
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 2: a couple different places. In nineteen fifty seven, they moved

950
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 2: to San Francisco, and he worked for an Armenian like

951
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: a famous Armenian restaurant tour whose name I didn't write

952
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 2: down because I didn't recognize it. And I do this

953
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 2: thing where like when I write fiction, I try not

954
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 2: to include names if they're not going to come up

955
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,839
Speaker 2: a couple of times, because otherwise I get overwhelmed as

956
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 2: a reader and I don't remember anyone's names.

957
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 1: Yeah.

958
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, he becomes like a Russian novel where you have

959
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 3: to have a note pad with everyone's nameationship to each other.

960
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I try not to do that. And so

961
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,280
Speaker 2: that's why, like, since I'm not writing history, I'm telling

962
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,919
Speaker 2: history as a story, you know, like history books should

963
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 2: have everyone's fucking names and the dates so that you

964
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 2: can cross reference everything. I'm fully on board with that,

965
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 2: but you know, it's like, I don't know I'm defending that.

966
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 2: I'm not even like I'm explaining why I don't include

967
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 2: the name of the restaurant.

968
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 3: Here that he worked for. Yeah, it makes sense.

969
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 2: And then he died of a stroke in nineteen sixty,

970
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,879
Speaker 2: not super old, not super young. I think that puts

971
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 2: him in his sixties or seventies.

972
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, most of his life happens after this, so right,

973
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 3: like he's in his work, like his twenties.

974
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's like twenty four to twenty five when

975
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 2: he kills the guy.

976
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 3: Perfect. Yeah, he did it. You know, it's like a

977
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 3: rare I don't know. Obviously, he's still probably carried unbelievable

978
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 3: trauma for the rest of his life totally, but like, yeah,

979
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,720
Speaker 3: to see someone feel like they've kind of completed their circle. Yeah,

980
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 3: I know a lot of people who survived these things

981
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 3: lived for the rest of their life with survivor's skill

982
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 3: or whatever else. Yeah, so he gets to do both.

983
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 3: He gets to live well and like also murder the

984
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 3: dude who was responsible for murdering members of his family

985
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 3: and community. No, you're right.

986
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 2: It's what we were talking about earlier, where they were like,

987
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 2: is living well the best revenge? Or is killing the

988
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 2: guy the best revenge? And the answer is why not both?

989
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 2: Dot give Yeah you know, yeah, that's right. Yeah, you

990
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 2: can have two. After Tillerian retired, Nemesis wasn't done. They

991
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 2: killed at least six more high ranking young Turks who

992
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: were behind the genocide. And they did all this with

993
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 2: ten assassins, twelve additional spies, and a handful of other

994
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 2: diplomats and folks doing behind the scenes work. And there's

995
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 2: like also really amazing stories and all of that I

996
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 2: really recommend. I usually read one to two books and

997
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 2: then read a lot of like academic articles and shit

998
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 2: like that to provide context and fill in gaps and stuff.

999
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 2: There's one book on this by Eric Bogosian, who also

1000
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 2: wrote that place Suburbia that I really liked as a kid,

1001
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 2: called Operation Nemesis, and it gets into more of the

1002
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,359
Speaker 2: details after this, and it is absolutely worth reading, and

1003
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 2: so I recommend it to any listeners. There's like a

1004
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 2: prison break. Believe me, there was a strong temptation to

1005
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 2: six part this, but instead I'm four parting it.

1006
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 3: We can save them for it'll treat down the line.

1007
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And so they did all this work twelve

1008
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 2: ish people, seven countries, three continents, with the support of

1009
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 2: everyone from conservative Armenians who hated the Tashnags to the

1010
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 2: Toashnags themselves. And it's not bad for twenty fourish people

1011
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 2: because as Margaret Mead once put it, never doubt that

1012
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 2: a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed,

1013
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 2: it's the only thing that ever has. She It's just

1014
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 2: what she was going full Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I

1015
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 2: haven't bothered to look up more about who Margaret Meade was,

1016
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 2: but you know, I'm sure, I'm sure she would have

1017
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 2: been done with it. And that's where we're going to

1018
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 2: leave it for this week. The Armenian struggle continues, the

1019
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 2: attempt to destroy them continue. That falls more under current

1020
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 2: events than history, but it's absolutely, unfortunately worth looking into,

1021
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 2: both their recent attempts to destroy them as a people

1022
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 2: by Azerbaijohn and also the potentially upcoming more of it.

1023
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 2: There's a lot of talk that's happening right now about

1024
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 2: how after this like climate conference in Azerbaijohn is over,

1025
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 2: they might do real bad stuff to Armenians again, and

1026
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 2: that's worth looking into, unfortunately. Yeah, but what's also worth

1027
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 2: looking into is James's stuff.

1028
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 3: Hi, what do you go? Yeah? I hope it won't

1029
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 3: be as as depressing as that thing, which is sad.

1030
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 3: What if I go? I have a Patreon. You could

1031
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 3: just search my name on Patreon and you can find

1032
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,399
Speaker 3: it where I write about stuff. I write about things

1033
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 3: I am reading. I write stuff that I can't sell

1034
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 3: because freelance journalism is as dead as Talat Pasha at

1035
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 3: the moment someone has shut it in the face. It's

1036
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 3: a very very sad time for journalism. And yeah, you

1037
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 3: can go that. I try and make stuff free after

1038
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 3: a while, some of the stuff you will have to

1039
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,280
Speaker 3: pay me a little bit, just like a dollar is fine.

1040
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 3: That that's enough money. And sometimes I write about going

1041
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 3: outside there as well, and I do that for free

1042
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 3: because I want people to go outside. I believe it

1043
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,399
Speaker 3: is good for you and it is how we all

1044
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 3: get through all of this shit. Aside from that, I

1045
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,800
Speaker 3: would love to plug organize it with your friends. You

1046
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 3: don't have to organize across three continents to kill the

1047
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 3: perpetrators of genocide. Instead, you can feed hungry people in

1048
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 3: your community. So do mutual aid. You don't need to

1049
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 3: read a bunch of books by like old white dudes

1050
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 3: with bids to understand mutual aid. Just get together with

1051
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 3: your friends and help people, and you will feel better

1052
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 3: and the people you're helping will feel better as well.

1053
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 2: I remember, once I read this book, God, I think

1054
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 2: I even brought it up on a podcast recently, but

1055
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 2: I'm much for as one of these. I read this

1056
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 2: book called Russia through a shot Glass, which is like

1057
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 2: a hobo traveling around in the USSR and he's like,

1058
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 2: you know, down and out or whatever, and it had

1059
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: this moment that explained something that I had never really

1060
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 2: truly internalized, where he's talking to this you know, this

1061
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 2: beggar and they're drinking under a bridge or something after

1062
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,760
Speaker 2: day's work, and the beggar's like, yeah, no it I'm

1063
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 2: helping people and they help me, people give me money

1064
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: and they feel better. And it's just like said on cynically.

1065
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 2: It's not like hey, I'm getting one on them or

1066
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 2: yeah whatever, like you know, it's like it's a man

1067
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 2: who's fallen through the cracks of the society that's supposedly

1068
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 2: perfect and you know whatever. But state capitalism is roughly

1069
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 2: as bad as regular capitalism. So yeah, feeding people, helping

1070
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 2: people is good for both of you. It's instead of

1071
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 2: we have this idea of like exchange where like we

1072
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 2: have to each get something from the other, you know,

1073
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 2: whereas there's actually things that we can do that just

1074
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: make both people wealthier and feeding people is one of

1075
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 2: those things, so that's also my plug. Also also the

1076
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,760
Speaker 2: go outside. I know it's kind of hot out the summer,

1077
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 2: but it's the coolest summer for the rest of your life,

1078
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 2: so go make the most of it.

1079
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 1: It's God.

1080
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, get up early, go outside, which out for snakes

1081
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 3: if that's a thing where you live.

1082
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 2: That is actually one of my biggest problems with the

1083
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 2: fact that I, like, I've been mostly trying to only

1084
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 2: go out once the peak of the sun is gone,

1085
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 2: but then it's like snake time and snakes central. Yeah,

1086
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 2: I've yet to see ral snakes in my property, and

1087
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 2: I'm very happy about that because I'm usually out with

1088
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 2: my dog and.

1089
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's scary. Way. Yeah, I got pursued by dad.

1090
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 3: I've never seen a rat snake like. I asked a

1091
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 3: snake expert about this. The informed conclusion seems to be that,

1092
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 3: just like people, some snakes are just assholes. Because this

1093
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 3: guy was, like, he wasn't just standing his ground right,

1094
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 3: who was coming at me? I thought it was going

1095
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 3: to come to come to blows. Didn't. Yeah, but I

1096
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 3: don't want to hurt snakes. Don't hurt snakes. They just

1097
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 3: snaking around. I mean like, I heard a snake before

1098
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 3: you let it bite you. Yeah, if it's venomous, yes,

1099
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,359
Speaker 3: don't go gently onto that good night of rattlesnake death.

1100
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't be like the post apocalyptic pacifist.

1101
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 3: You lie down. Yeah, I mean, like whatever.

1102
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 2: At the end of the day they fed in that dream,

1103
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:18,919
Speaker 2: they were like running a like you know, a whole

1104
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 2: bunch of food, mutual aid stuff. And it's fine, you know,

1105
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 2: but yeah, whatever you can also, yeah, get ready for

1106
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 2: what's coming, and we'll all take care of each other

1107
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 2: through it and it'll be as well as we can

1108
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 2: make it. And yeah, yeah, I'll see you all next

1109
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 2: week when I talk about something really light and next

1110
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 2: week's topics.

1111
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 3: It's light and fun, but it'll be interesting. Oh no,

1112
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 3: I'll talk to you then.

1113
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1114
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

1115
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,359
Speaker 1: visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us

1116
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: out on the iHeartRadio app, I'm a Podcast, or wherever

1117
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:00,760
Speaker 1: you get your podcast

1118
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 3: M