1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 2: He's one of us. He might disappear from public view. 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 2: What happened to Jennifer becomes a story of what happened 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: long ago at some point. 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold war Wicked on Exactly Right. I've 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 12 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 14 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: never been published. 15 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 2: Tenfold More Wicked. 16 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: Presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 17 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: good and bad. 18 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: It's a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. 19 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 3: J J. 20 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: Revol is an award winning filmmaker and an associate professor 21 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: at the University of Texas. One of my favorite colleagues. 22 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: PJ is a queer, first generation Filipino American who was 23 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: named one of Indy Wires twenty five LGBT filmmakers on 24 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: the Rise in twenty nineteen. This episode is about pj's 25 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: latest film, Call Her Gunda. It's a feature documentary following 26 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: the story of Jennifer Louday, a transgender woman who was 27 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: found dead in a motel room in the Philippines. When 28 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: a nineteen year old US marine became the main suspect, 29 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: Jennifer's murder became an international controversy. Where does Jennifer's story 30 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: make the most sense for you to start? 31 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 2: I think what makes the most sense is to think 32 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 2: about how the rest of the world learned about Jennifer Louday, 33 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 2: which was on October eleventh of twenty fourteen. Jennifer, unfortunately 34 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: was found dead in a motel room and she was 35 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: partially clothed with a sheet wrapped around her body. She 36 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 2: was discovered by the motel staff front desk person and 37 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 2: she was in a motel bathroom with their head slumped 38 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: into the toilet bowl, so she was strangled from behind, 39 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 2: but also her head was dunked in the toilet bowl 40 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 2: right in water, and so she officially died through drowning. 41 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: What happened very quickly was since the person last scene 42 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: with Jennifer was a US Marine. Immediately NCIS was informed 43 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 2: and because of the relationship between the United States and 44 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,679 Speaker 2: the Philippines, they took over the investigation. So local police 45 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: did come to the crime scene, but they were unable 46 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: to acquire any evidence or do any initial reporting on 47 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 2: their own because it was immediately taken over by the NCIS. 48 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: So let's back up a little bit. Sure, who is Jennifer? 49 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: Who is she as a person? What you found before 50 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: all the stuff happened. 51 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: Jennifer at the time was twenty six years old. She 52 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: was a transgender woman, so goes by she her and 53 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 2: she was living in Alongapo. And for those not familiar, 54 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 2: Alangapo is a port town in the Philippines. It is 55 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 2: home to one of the largest offshore US naval bases. 56 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: This area has been a port town for centuries. She 57 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 2: was working as a In the Philippines, they would refer 58 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: to them as parlarista, someone who works at the salon. 59 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 2: Maybe a cosmetician. I think she was doing like hair. 60 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 2: Maybe someone would say a beautician. She had a younger 61 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 2: sister and an older sister also living in Algopo at 62 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: the time. The eldest sister had two kids, so she 63 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: also had a nissa and a nephew at the time. 64 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: From all accounts, she was a extremely generous, smart, talented individual, 65 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 2: very much loved by her family. In Tagalog, which is 66 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 2: the language of the Philippines, the word nani is used 67 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: for mother, so Nani Jennifer's mom would refer to her 68 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: as Ganda, which in Tagalog means beauty, and that was 69 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 2: her nickname ever since she was young. Even Jennifer's mom 70 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 2: would tell these stories about how when she was this 71 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 2: young child, Jennifer at the time would say, I'm so 72 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: I'm so pretty, So you could tell she was very 73 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: much loved by her family. She also was surrounded by 74 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: a community of other trans women and speaking to them, 75 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: the way that they would speak about Jennifer was that 76 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: she was kind of a natural leader. A lot of 77 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 2: them looked up to her, a lot of them turned 78 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 2: to her for advice. She was loved by her family 79 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 2: and very much well respected in her community. 80 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: Do you think there is the same physical threat to 81 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 1: transgender people in the Philippines. 82 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 2: I would say the idea of transgender individuals in this case, specifically, 83 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: thinking about trans women facing violence and the threat of 84 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: violence I would say every culture, every country, and I 85 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 2: think we see this even statistically. The amount of violence 86 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 2: that this particular community faces is just so astronomical. 87 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: So Jennifer's from a fishing town, She's close to her sisters. 88 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 2: And her mother. Where are we when this all starts 89 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: to happen. 90 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: She is in cosmatology, we think, right, and seemingly successful. 91 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: She's a leader in the community. People look up to her. 92 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: How do we transition to the situation that happens? 93 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: You know, in terms of the culture of the Philippines, 94 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 2: it's historically been very difficult for trans individuals to have 95 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 2: some kind of employment. We see them in entertainment, so 96 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 2: sometimes there are you know, actors, performers, stage performances by 97 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: people who would identify as trans. We will see them 98 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 2: in salons, we will see them in barbershops, things like that. 99 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 2: What's been a challenge is finding employment for trans individuals 100 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 2: outside of those two fields. OK, so they're sort of 101 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: siloed in the philip Yeah, so you don't see a 102 00:05:54,760 --> 00:06:00,039 Speaker 2: whole lot of trans lawyers or CEOs, right, And I 103 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 2: don't think it's because there isn't a interest, It's just 104 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: this is what discrimination. It looks like right, So, Jennifer 105 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 2: was working in one of the few industries that were 106 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 2: available to her, which was working as a parlorista, right 107 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 2: as a beautician. However, a lot of trans women, especially 108 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 2: in Alangopo, also meet a lot of foreigners who are 109 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 2: traveling through. A lot of them are military, not only 110 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: from the United States but from all over the world. 111 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 2: Some trans women will go to these bars meet these men, 112 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: have sexual exchanges, right, and sometimes along with these sexual 113 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: exchanges comes transactional exchanges, maybe paying for meals, maybe paying 114 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 2: for a place that they're living or staying. So what 115 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,799 Speaker 2: I'm saying is this is kind of a slippery slope 116 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: because what is considered sex work. Maybe this falls into this, 117 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: maybe it doesn't. But from my understanding, Jennifer did meet 118 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 2: foreigners all the time at bars, and there would be 119 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 2: these exchanges where they would pay for her drinks. If 120 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 2: they would maybe go off to a hotel room or 121 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: a motel room, they would pay for that. I don't 122 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: know the extent beyond that. People have referred to Jennifer 123 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: as a sex worker before. I think if you ask 124 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,559 Speaker 2: her family, they would say she was not. I think 125 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: if you ask her friends, they would say you need 126 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: to ask Jennifer. But I think if you ask Jennifer's 127 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: friends if they are some of them will say yes, 128 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: they are sex workers, and some of them will say no, 129 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: they're not. So who is she meeting at these bars? 130 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: Usually CIS men, and some of them certainly in the military, 131 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: And a lot of times these men were looking specifically 132 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: for trans women to have sexual encounters with. 133 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: Was this something that usually went well or did we 134 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: hear about violent encounters happening? 135 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: I think they've all been subject to some kind of 136 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: violent encounter and they were very much aware of it, 137 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 2: and a lot of the times they would tell me 138 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 2: that they would often be careful about who would be 139 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 2: leaving with so and so, kind of keeping each other 140 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: in check and keeping eyes on each other, so to speak. 141 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: So that night, Jennifer was at a bar called Ambiance, 142 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: which sadly no longer exists but still there. It has 143 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: a new name, but at the time it was called Ambiance, 144 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: and it was being frequented by a lot of US Marines. 145 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: A lot of these bars, there's an increase of traffic 146 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 2: when these military personnel have R and R, so they 147 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 2: are allowed to leave the ship, they're allowed to leave 148 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 2: their bases and roam around the town as civilians, and 149 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 2: oftentimes these young men they want to go to a bar, 150 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 2: have some drinks and meet some women. This is where 151 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 2: Jennifer was that night with several of her friends. 152 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: So she encounters a marine, a US marine, correct, yeah, 153 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: and they make some sort of agreement and then they 154 00:08:58,880 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: leave together. 155 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 2: The next thing we know about the story is she's 156 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: found dead. She left Ambiance with Joseph Scott Pemberton, who 157 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 2: at the time was a private first class. Part of 158 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 2: him being out with several of his marine friends was 159 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: that he was celebrating potentially getting promoted to being Lance corporal, 160 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 2: and I believe he was with several other Marines at 161 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 2: the time. All of them kind of partnered off with 162 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: a different person, and Jennifer and another friend of hers 163 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 2: named Barbie, they left Ambiance with Joseph Scott Pemberton and 164 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 2: they crossed the street to a short term motel called 165 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 2: cell Zone Lodge. At the lodge, they arrived around I 166 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 2: believe at sometime around ten o'clock at night. Jennifer, Barbie, 167 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: and Pemberton go to a motel room and about twenty 168 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: minutes later, Barbie leaves the motel room, leaving the two 169 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: of them in there, and then another couple minutes later, 170 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: ten or fifteen minutes later, Pemberton leaves the motel room 171 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 2: and leaves the door cracked open, and so the front 172 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 2: desk clerk noticed that the door was cracked open and 173 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 2: was expecting Jennifer to be leaving the room at some 174 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 2: point also, and when clearly she did not come out, 175 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 2: is when he knocked on the door and then discovered 176 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 2: the crime scene. 177 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: He calls the police, and the police come and within 178 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: how long is this investigation turned over to the US 179 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: government That I don't. 180 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 2: Know actually how quickly it was turned over. I do 181 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 2: know that at the time Barbie, who was the friend 182 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 2: with Jennifer, she was still at the Salzone Lodge. So 183 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 2: the front desk clerk also told Barbie, and she and 184 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: some of the other friends of Jennifer at that point, 185 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: they all kind of texted each other what was happening, 186 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 2: and I remember them telling us that they were unclear 187 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 2: what was happening, and they were receiving messages saying that 188 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 2: Jennifer had either fainted and passed out or maybe was 189 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: possibly dead. They didn't know, so they were kind of 190 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 2: gathering outside on the sidewalk, trying to figure out what 191 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: was happening. 192 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: How is he Joseph Pemberton, How was he tracked down? 193 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 2: How do they find him? Well, he went back to 194 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 2: the ship. His marine friends were looking for him because 195 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 2: they had already gone back to the ship. So I 196 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 2: think he was the last person to arrive late. From 197 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: what I understand through some reporting from Meredith to Lusan, 198 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: who's featured in the film, but also through some of 199 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 2: the court transcripts, was that Pemberton approached his friend Jaren 200 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 2: Rose at the time and said these lines which became 201 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: very important to the case and to everyone who was 202 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 2: paying attention to this unfolding court case, was that he said, 203 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 2: I think I killed Ahishi. So clearly there was an 204 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 2: admission of guilt or understanding what he had done, but 205 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: then obviously also referring to Jennifer as a he she 206 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 2: it's a terrible term. Having spoken to some of Jennifer's friends, 207 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 2: they said, oftentimes there are men who are seeking out 208 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 2: trans women specifically, and oftentimes there are some exchanges where 209 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: you may never reveal your physical body fully naked, for instance, 210 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 2: So it kind of all depends in this case Jennifer 211 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 2: was found clearly naked, all of her clothing had been removed, 212 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: and she had been wrapped in a bed sheet. According 213 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 2: to what attorney Virginia Suarez, who represents the Loude family, 214 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: what she says, which I very much agree with, is 215 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: there's two people who entered the room, one person leaves, 216 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 2: the other person doesn't, and the one person who leaves 217 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 2: refuses to talk about what happened in that room. So 218 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: all we can do is kind of speculate really about 219 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: this exchange. But I do feel that there are certain 220 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 2: pieces of evidence and information that we could look at. 221 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: Jennifer was found with all of her clothing removed but 222 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 2: wrapped in a sheet in the back room. I don't 223 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 2: believe that her clothing was found ripped off or anything. 224 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 2: So does that mean it was removed with Pemberton's knowledge 225 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 2: and him seeing her fully naked. I don't know, but 226 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 2: maybe we could assume that is a possibility. When the 227 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 2: coroner's report came out, she was also badly bruised in 228 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 2: the face but also from behind, and she was strangled 229 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 2: from behind, so we could also assume as a possibility 230 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 2: that maybe she had been physically attacked from the front 231 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 2: and was maybe trying to escape or flee or leave 232 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 2: somehow and was prevented because she was strangled from behind 233 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 2: right with bruises also behind her. I believe there was 234 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 2: a used condom that was found in the trash can. 235 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 2: I don't know if the DNA evidence points to anyone 236 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 2: in particular. And one could also argue that if this 237 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 2: is a motel that is frequented right, heavily might not 238 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 2: have anything to do I might not have to do 239 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 2: with them. It could be someone else, Right, What does 240 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 2: Barbie say about all this? So she was there for 241 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 2: the first part of this. Yeah, According to Barbie's testimony, 242 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 2: she went into the room with the two of them 243 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: and performed oral sex on Pemberton and left the room 244 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 2: with the understanding that he and Jennifer were going to 245 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 2: have some kind of sexual exchange. At that point. She 246 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: very much believes that Pemberton was interested in Jennifer sexually. 247 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: So he's arrested, what happens. He's not arrested because he 248 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 2: is on the ship and because he is military personnel 249 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 2: under the Visiting Forces Agreement, which is a bilateral agreement 250 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: between the United States and the Philippines. There's a clause 251 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: in there that basically says, when any military personnel is 252 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 2: accused of a crime or subject to local law enforcement, 253 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 2: that they're protected by the US military and it becomes 254 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 2: up to the US military terry to comply. And so 255 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: in this case, they did not hand over Pemberton to 256 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: local authorities, which is usually what would happen in this case. 257 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 2: Right if Pemberton were a civilian, not military, and just 258 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: happened to be in the Philippines and was accused of 259 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 2: a crime, he would be detained. So in this case 260 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 2: he was unable to be detained, and he remained on 261 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: the ship. 262 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: What is the reaction of the local press at this 263 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: point to this story, is it skewed towards Jennifer and 264 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: her plight were? 265 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 2: What is happening in the press? If you go back 266 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 2: and you look at the kind of unfolding headlines, you 267 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 2: can see the kind of evolution of understanding of what's happening. 268 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 2: Some of the first headlines said a man dressed as 269 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 2: a woman was found dead in a motel room, and 270 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 2: then it started becoming a woman was found dead in 271 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: a motel room, and then a trans woman was found 272 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 2: dead in a motel room. And you see also the 273 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: suspect being a foreigner, the suspect being an American, the 274 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 2: suspect being a US Marine, and eventually the headline that 275 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: breaks that starts going around the world is that a 276 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 2: trans woman is found dead in a motel room with 277 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 2: the prime suspect being a US marine. 278 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: And is the theme here in justice from the beginning 279 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: in the press in the Philippines. 280 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 2: There are common narratives that are being played out, and 281 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: this is probably because there are these common narratives that 282 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 2: have been playing out, which is part of the injustice here. 283 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 2: The narrative of a US marine meeting a woman at 284 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: a bar, taking her to a short term motel room 285 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: is a common narrative, so that narrative was definitely playing 286 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 2: out in the media. Was there sympathy or empathy for Jennifer? 287 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 2: As soon as Jennifer was discovered, her trans community quickly 288 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: mobilized and they contacted many other trans individuals LGBT rights 289 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 2: activists specifically transactivists around the world, er specifically on the 290 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 2: Philippines specifically, and that immediately activated. One of our sisters 291 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 2: is in trouble. Let's get the facts here, Let's educate everyone. 292 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: What's happening, So immediately we see a lot of these 293 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 2: trans community organizations and social justice organizations posting on social media. 294 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: This comes to a part of the film that I 295 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,239 Speaker 1: really like, which is the strength of three women that 296 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: represent I think three very important factions. So you've got 297 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: an activist attorney that can really advocate for Jennifer in 298 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: the courts. You've got a journalist who can work with 299 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: the press and really get worldwide articles out. And then 300 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: you've got someone who can humanize her her mother, who 301 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure did not anticipate being involved in the media 302 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: the way she had. So can you sort of lay 303 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: out the role that these women had moving forward? Pemberton's 304 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: shut down the military is not really a playing ball. 305 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: Where do we go from here? And how are these 306 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: women involved with that. 307 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 2: I'm glad you're pointing out that Pemberton shutdown because basically 308 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 2: Pemberton and the US their position was to not say anything, 309 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 2: to limit access, not make any press statements, not allow 310 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 2: for any interviews, not allow for any access, shutting the door. 311 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 2: So on the other side, we have, you know, Jennifer's family, 312 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: and all that they could do at the time was 313 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 2: try to gain as much attention about what was happening, 314 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: and so they eventually became represented by attorney Virginia Suarez. 315 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,959 Speaker 2: So early on you start seeing that Jennifer's mom and 316 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: Jennifer's sisters are in front of cameras having to give 317 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: statements about, you know, who Jennifer was. How do they 318 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 2: feel all of these things, And as you can imagine, 319 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 2: non nin Jennifer's mom was outraged. She was completely devastated. 320 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 2: But she was completely outraged and she was completely dedicated 321 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 2: to pursuing accountability on behalf of Jennifer. 322 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: What do you say to the press, who might be 323 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: looking at her as a sex worker, who might not 324 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: be giving her enough empathy or sympathy, that this is 325 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 1: somebody who really does deserve justice none. 326 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: I took the approach that she knew and felt that 327 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: was true, was that her beloved child had been taken 328 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,719 Speaker 2: from her. We're talking about these ideas of like transgender 329 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 2: maybe being a political term for some people. You don't 330 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 2: understand any of that. What you do understand is loss, right. 331 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 2: What you do understand is losing a loved one and 332 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 2: how devastated you would feel. And I think that's what 333 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: the world saw. The world saw this mother that was devastated, 334 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 2: really devastated. That kind of hurt and pain is completely 335 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 2: something that people understand, so I think that was a 336 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 2: huge thing. Around the same time, I was interested in 337 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 2: making a film about parents and parenting right because friends 338 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 2: of mine were having kids and it was just interesting 339 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 2: to see friends of mine who are are trans, who 340 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 2: are queer, and then his friends straight friends having kids 341 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 2: whose kids are queer and or trans, and it was 342 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 2: for me an interesting time to really think about this 343 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 2: relationship between parent and child, and very much in the 344 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 2: United States at the time, we were having these conversations 345 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 2: of here are these trans kids and the parents who 346 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: were trying to accept them, And for me, what was 347 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 2: amazing is here is a case where Jennifer's mom's love 348 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: was so unconditional. You could tell it had nothing to 349 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: do with Jennifer being trans or not trans. It was 350 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 2: just purely, this is my child. I love my child, 351 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 2: and you have taken my child away from me. You know. 352 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 2: For me, there was something really important about that that 353 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 2: it kind of became yes, we're going to look at 354 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 2: all of these factors, us, marine, trans woman, all of 355 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 2: these kinds of things. And for non I it was 356 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: just so fundamental. It was just so basic. I think 357 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 2: that did resonate. It certainly resonated with Attorney Virginia Suarez Virgie, 358 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 2: because Virgie as a lawyer, as an activist, as all 359 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 2: a mother, and she talks a lot about how she's 360 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 2: always taking cases and really dealing with defending and representing 361 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 2: people who are women, people who have all these barriers 362 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 2: to some kind of legal support, and so she just immediately, 363 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 2: I think, understood Nona's position and that she understood none 364 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 2: Eye's commitment to really holding someone accountable for what had happened. 365 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: We're talking with filmmaker PJ. Revolt about the murder of 366 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 1: Jennifer and the fight for justice. When her suspected killer 367 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: was protected by the US government, at what point is 368 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 1: there even a court case to deal with? 369 00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 2: I think soon as it became known that Pemberton was 370 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 2: US military, I think a lot of people understood the 371 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 2: importance of this playing out in the court system. For 372 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 2: those of you who don't know, the Philippines is a 373 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 2: former colony of the United States. The Philippines was a 374 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 2: former colony for fifty plus years. Some would say up 375 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 2: to one hundred. Some would say that the Philippines functions 376 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 2: as a neo colony to the United States, and clearly 377 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 2: we have these agreements very much in favor of the 378 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 2: United States, and the Philippines itself is very much receiving 379 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 2: a lot of economic aid from the United States, right, 380 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: So there's this really interdependent relationship. So I think a 381 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 2: lot of activists, attorneys, journalists immediately understood that there was 382 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 2: a lot of importance that's going to be placed on 383 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 2: this case because it's going to force everyone to look 384 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 2: at these longstanding issues between the two nations. Already with 385 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: the fact that Pemberton was unable to be detained by 386 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 2: local authorities, compound by the fact that the local authorities 387 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 2: had stopped even trying to detain him because they already 388 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: knew that legally they would not be able to do this. 389 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 2: So there was even more importance there for everyone else 390 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 2: to have this play out into the court case. So 391 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 2: it could be really challenging some of these policies and 392 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 2: specifically this agreement between the United States and the Philippines. 393 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 2: But what was going to happen. 394 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: Was he just going to walk away or was the 395 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: intention of enacting the VFA the Visiting Forces Act to 396 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: take him back to the United States and try him there. 397 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 2: What was the next step? I think in other situations 398 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 2: what had happened is by the time local authorities track 399 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 2: down some of these individuals, they've usually left the country. 400 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 2: And in this case, there was a lot of pressure 401 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 2: being placed upon the ambassador at the time US Ambassador 402 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 2: to the Philippines, the US Ambassador of the Philippines. There 403 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: was an embargo put on the ship so it would 404 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 2: not leave Philippines, ordered by the ambassador, ordered by the ambassador, 405 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 2: And I believe that's partially why Pemberton remained in the Philippines. 406 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: So then what happens next He's on a ship and 407 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: the US has taken over. 408 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 2: Do they interview him or what happens? Yeah, So basically 409 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 2: what happens is the family file a court case. The 410 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 2: prosecutor says, yes, there is a court case here, so 411 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: we should start scheduling a court case, and Attorney Virginia 412 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 2: Suirez becomes the Loudy family representative along with Harry Roke. 413 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 2: It's decided that this will go to court. It will 414 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: be tried in the Ilangopo Regional Court jury trial as 415 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 2: far as you know or no, tried by a single judge, 416 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 2: he will be represented by a private law firm. He 417 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 2: has to hire an attorney. Well, what we do know 418 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 2: is that the private law firm that is hired is 419 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: also one that's often hired by the US military. 420 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: Okay, so he goes to trial, evident says given, does 421 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: he have any kind of a defense? 422 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 2: His defense is what some people would call the trans 423 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 2: panic defense. This is something we have seen play out 424 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 2: in the United States. So even with Matthew Shepherd in Laramie, Wyoming, 425 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 2: where two men met Matthew at a bar, end up 426 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 2: bringing him out to a field in the middle of 427 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 2: the night, kill him very brutally and leave him tied up. 428 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: An defense, they claimed gay panic because soon as they 429 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: found out that he was gay, they were not in 430 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 2: their rightful mind and they had to protect themselves, right, Which, 431 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 2: even if we're trying to just apply any kind of logic, 432 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: we would say, well, clearly, if you did not agree 433 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 2: with this individual, you could just leave right. There's no 434 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 2: reason you would have to take them out into a field, 435 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: beat them up, string them up, leave them there to die. 436 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 2: It makes no sense. But unfortunately it has been a 437 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 2: defense that has been used in the United States throughout 438 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 2: history and has been somewhat successful. Liken to that is 439 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 2: this concept of the trans panic defense. You meet an 440 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 2: individual who identifies as trans and suddenly you just cannot 441 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 2: be rational at that point, and it ends up with 442 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 2: you feeling like you must defend yourself and that means 443 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 2: physically harming the other person. This had never been used 444 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 2: before in the Philippines in the court of law. However, 445 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 2: this is the first time it's being used right in 446 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: the Philippines. In the Philippines. Yeah, it's being brought in 447 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 2: by a defense team representing this American marine. So part 448 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 2: of the defense was they had been drinking. Part of 449 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: the defense was Jennifer had deceived him. And then the 450 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 2: big defense was and Jennifer was trans and therefore Pemberton 451 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 2: was not in his right mind. He felt so deceived, 452 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: so lied to that he had to protect himself from 453 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 2: being assaulted by this trans individual. I mean, it's insane. 454 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 2: One thing that we do know is Jennifer Wade I 455 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 2: think equivalent of like ninety pounds, right, ninety US pounds 456 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 2: and Pemberton weighs way more than that. So she's clearly 457 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 2: not a threat. She's clearly not a threat. She's been 458 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 2: working as a beautician. Pemberton is a trained military agent 459 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 2: on top of being strangled from behind. Yes, and so 460 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 2: even in the sense of saying that Pemberton felt physically 461 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 2: threatened by Jennifer, I think is a really hard argument 462 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 2: to make. Yet this is the argument that is being made. 463 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,360 Speaker 2: So this was all done in self defense. 464 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: What is the reaction of the press and the Philippines 465 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: to this defense. 466 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 2: A lot of people could see how this was injustice 467 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 2: unfolding in front of them. The fact that you have 468 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: this marine who's unable to be detained, in the fact 469 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: that you have this marine who's claiming that he's being 470 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 2: physically threatened by someone who's much smaller than him, someone 471 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 2: that he paid for a motel room to be in with, 472 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 2: someone who he met and invited them across the street. 473 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: You know, you see a lot of transphobia, trans misogyny, 474 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 2: A lot of things happen too where you start seeing 475 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 2: a lot of social media posting saying that Jennifer deserve 476 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 2: this or how dare someone trick you? At the same time, 477 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 2: we have this justice for Jennifer movement that's starting. There's 478 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 2: also albeit a much smaller but also a justice for 479 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Pemberton kind of movement that comes across saying 480 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 2: that he had been deceived and he was not guilty 481 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 2: of anything. I hate to say it, but it comes 482 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,719 Speaker 2: a little bit of he says, She says, right. But 483 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 2: what's really interesting about it is it's not Pemberton, it's 484 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 2: actually the defense team. Pemberton never once makes any public statements. 485 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 2: He doesn't show up to the trial, he doesn't show 486 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 2: up to any of the proceedings. He shows up once 487 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: to the pre trial. He shows up again for the 488 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 2: actual verdict announcement. That's it. So what is after all 489 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 2: of this the decision of the judge. So the judge 490 00:28:55,080 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 2: finds Pemberton guilty, but not of murder, but guilty of homicide, 491 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 2: meaning it was not intentional. And she claims that there 492 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: were mitigating circumstances, and some of the mitigating circumstances is 493 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 2: that they had been drinking. Some of the mitigating circumstances 494 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 2: were that she did not feel that there was treachery. 495 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: The judge had also felt there wasn't a clear argument 496 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 2: to say that Jennifer was not a physical threat. And 497 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 2: even with the height differences, weight differences, strength differences. She 498 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 2: believed that Pemberton was clearly more physically powerful than Jennifer. 499 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 2: So some would argue that that in itself is an 500 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 2: act of transphobia, right, saying that that this judge is 501 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 2: not accepting the fact that as a trans woman, Jennifer 502 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: was smaller, and then the mitigating circumstances of them drinking. 503 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: She finds Pemberton guilty of homicide, not murder. She sentences 504 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 2: Pemberton to six to twelve years in the National prison. Now, 505 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: for my understanding, for a crime of that degree, it 506 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 2: usually would start at much higher, so already it had 507 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 2: been downgraded in this case. So according to her sentence, 508 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 2: he should immediately be taken into custody by local officials 509 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 2: and escorted to the national prison. However, that's not what happens. 510 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 2: The Marines physically surround him so that the local officials 511 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 2: cannot detain him, and there's a standoff that happens for 512 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 2: three plus hours. It was really unexpected. Wow, what happened? 513 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: You know, I was not allowed in the courtroom, but 514 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 2: the family and the attorneys would come down and tell 515 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: me what's happening, give press statements, and basically Pemberton was 516 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 2: sitting there, yeah, physically surrounded by these marines who were 517 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 2: not willing to let him be detained by local authorities. 518 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 2: So the local authorities were surrounding them, standing around, realizing 519 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 2: that this might actually result in guns being drawn or something. 520 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 2: So the judge is in her chambers and refuses to 521 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 2: come out, and then she makes a motion, and her 522 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 2: motion is that Pemberton will remain in custody of the 523 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 2: United States until further notice. And it really ends up 524 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 2: being kind of like a dot dot dot, like what 525 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 2: does that mean. It just means that tonight he's going 526 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 2: back to where he's being held. For the first part 527 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: of the investigation, Pemberton was being held on the ship. 528 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: After that, Pemberton was brought to Camp Algonado, which is 529 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 2: technically a Philippine military facility. However, there was one area 530 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 2: that they designated for Pemberton to be held in while 531 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 2: he was going through the trial, and this area of 532 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: the military base would be under only the supervision of 533 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: the United States. So even if we think about like 534 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 2: a military base in the Philippines that's under jurisdiction of 535 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 2: the United States, Like here's a mini version of it, right, 536 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 2: we have an actual Filipino Military base, and there will 537 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 2: be only one section of it that is under the 538 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 2: jurisdiction of the United States. So that's where he pretty 539 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 2: much stayed. And from my understanding, he was in a 540 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 2: four hundred square foot studio apartment. Like I think, he 541 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 2: had his own kitchen, he has his own bathroom, He 542 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 2: was given internet access. So when the military refused to 543 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 2: hand him over, he went back to this facility. He 544 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 2: was there for several more months, and then comes the 545 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 2: appeals process. Pemberton appeals several times the conviction. Once at 546 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 2: the regional court, the defense team files a motion of reconsideration, 547 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: meaning they asked the judge to reconsider their sentence, no 548 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 2: additional evidence provided, no additional arguments, just clearly asking the 549 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 2: judge to reconsider, and she does. Actually, she further downgrades 550 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 2: the sentence, so it goes from six to twelve years 551 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 2: to five to ten years. What's the reason for that. 552 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 2: No statement was made other than she made the argument 553 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 2: that since he had been held already in trial, some 554 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 2: time here, maybe some time serve right. And then it 555 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: gets appealed to the Court of Appeals and they're basically 556 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 2: asking to overturn the decision. They deny his request. So 557 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 2: from that point on it goes to the third and final, 558 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 2: which is the Supreme Court. The defense team is making 559 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: all of the arguments saying that he's already served with 560 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 2: good behavior. Virgie and the legal team representing the Loude 561 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 2: family argue in response, saying, how can you have good 562 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 2: behavior if you're not around anyone else, you know? And 563 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 2: they also argue he's actually not being treated like someone 564 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 2: would be if they were properly incarcerated. Something that becomes 565 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 2: a surprise to everyone is that Du Terte, President du Tarote, 566 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 2: the President of the Philippines, issues a total pardon, total 567 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 2: and absolute pardon. Yeah, and I want to clarify that 568 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 2: what this pardon does is it does not pardon Pemberton 569 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 2: from the crime. But what it does pardon him is 570 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 2: from any additional sentencing that needs to happen. So basically, 571 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 2: this pardon allows Pemberton to kind of walk free and 572 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 2: say that he's served his time, even though he never 573 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 2: once stepped foot in an actual prison facility. How long 574 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 2: was he there total, it's about four and a half 575 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 2: years at that point that he's been in the Philippines. 576 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 2: The legal team kind of knew after five years of 577 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 2: legal proceedings that the defense team would try something, so 578 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 2: de Terte issued this pardon. Who's playing politics, Who's playing politics? Yeah. 579 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 2: One thing I will mention also was that when Pemberton 580 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 2: was convicted, he became the first US military person convicted 581 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 2: of a crime in the Philippines. And for those who 582 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 2: don't know, the US has been actively in the Philippines 583 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 2: for over one hundred years. 584 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, so obviously not the first American to commit a crime. 585 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 2: Philip exactly, but the first person to really been accused 586 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 2: of and found guilty. So it was a historic win 587 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 2: that unfortunately was undermined by this ongoing you know, injustices 588 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 2: that kind of were in the favor of Pemberton. However, 589 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 2: even though President du Terte issued an absolute pardon, it 590 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 2: still remains that he was found guilty and convicted. So 591 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 2: for me, I do think the silver lining is now 592 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 2: there's legal precedence, it is possible to hold US military 593 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 2: personnel accountable for crimes in the Philippines. 594 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: What has been the reaction of your film just worldwide 595 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:38,399 Speaker 1: wherever it's gone. 596 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,919 Speaker 2: I think in the Philippines the reaction largely has been 597 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 2: an opportunity for everyone to see what was happening kind 598 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 2: of behind closed doors. A lot of this was playing 599 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 2: out in the media. A lot of this was playing 600 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 2: out literally at the courtouse. So I think for people 601 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 2: it's an opportunity to see what the family was going 602 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 2: through just on a day to day basis in the 603 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 2: United States, and I think for the rest of the 604 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 2: world it's also been an eye opener for a lot 605 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:09,879 Speaker 2: of people. Was this film difficult for you? Yes, that one, 606 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 2: I can give you a very quick answer, Yes, it 607 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 2: was difficult. The things that were most difficult about this 608 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 2: was understanding how significant this story and case is, thinking 609 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 2: about the relationship between the US and the Philippines, and 610 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 2: as someone who identifies as a queer Philippine ex American, 611 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 2: understanding the importance of this moment, what this film has 612 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: the power to do in terms of sharing Jennifer's story, 613 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 2: in terms of amplifying whatever messages are coming from the 614 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 2: activists themselves, or tapping into just the empathy that people 615 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 2: would have for Nannai, for Jennifer's mom, and really understanding 616 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 2: what happened. A lot of the times we think of 617 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 2: these big issues, we're thinking about laws, and we're thinking 618 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 2: about history, but really, at the end of the day, 619 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 2: someone's loved one was killed, and if I can share 620 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 2: that experience connecting these really big issues that seem impersonal 621 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 2: and make them incredibly personal. So understanding the potential and 622 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 2: power of that in a film and through sharing a 623 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 2: story is incredibly intimidating, you know. And I didn't want 624 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 2: to disappoint. I didn't want to take something that was 625 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 2: so incredibly important to me and I understood was incredibly 626 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 2: important for so many people and do it wrong. And 627 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 2: this is not the first film I've made, and I 628 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 2: don't think this could have been the first film that 629 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 2: I've made. I think I had to kind of make 630 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 2: my way here and graduate towards this. I think Jennifer 631 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,720 Speaker 2: and Jennifer's story is part of a much larger narrative, 632 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 2: and part of what I wanted to do was connect 633 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 2: those dots. Was Jennifer killed because she's trans Was Jennifer 634 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 2: killed because she's poor? Was Jennifer killed because she's Filipino? 635 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 2: I believe it's all three of these things. And the 636 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 2: reason that a US Marine can come to the Philippines 637 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 2: and feel like they can do that is because of 638 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 2: this much larger narrative. That's been going on for over 639 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 2: a century. So for me, I wanted to be able 640 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 2: to tell Jennifer's story and be able to connect it 641 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 2: to these much larger issues. So, really, what killed Jennifer, 642 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 2: It's also history, it's also US imperialism. All of those 643 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 2: things killed Jennifer, not just Pemberton, but it's these much 644 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 2: larger things. They are very personal to someone. 645 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: Okay, is there anything else you want to add or 646 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: anything I need to change. 647 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 2: Or Okay, I guess there's one last thing I want 648 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 2: to say. Pemberton made no statements, was not available for 649 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:40,439 Speaker 2: interview by anyone, was not seen by anyone for over 650 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 2: a year. You know, it became questionable whether or not 651 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 2: he was even in the Philippines anymore. And ultimately, on 652 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 2: the other side, you have Jennifer's family, and all they 653 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 2: could do was be vocal. All they could do was 654 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 2: share their story and with anyone who would understand and 655 00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 2: see and feel impassion to support them and keep moving. 656 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 2: That was I think really telling was that when Pemberton 657 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 2: was finally released and being returned to the United States, 658 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 2: on his way from where he was being held to 659 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 2: the airport, he issued a statement through his lawyer, and 660 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 2: the lawyer basically said, during this time period, he's thought 661 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 2: a lot about what happened and he wishes things were different. 662 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 2: That was it. Pemberton now comes back to the United States, 663 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,839 Speaker 2: never has to once ever apologize say anything, and he 664 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 2: is here back in the United States among us. He's 665 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,439 Speaker 2: one of us now, he's not this figure that's being 666 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 2: held in a foreign country. For me, that's kind of 667 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 2: the biggest injustice of all is he might disappear from 668 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 2: public view. What happened to Jennifer becomes a story of 669 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 2: what happened long ago. At some point. Part of me 670 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 2: wanting to make this film part of what all the 671 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,959 Speaker 2: activists are doing, part of what Jennifer's family is doing 672 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 2: is not only keeping Jennifer's spirit alive, but keeping change 673 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,320 Speaker 2: and the reason we need change, moving it forward. Still, 674 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 2: not only is Pemberton allowed to move forward, but he's 675 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 2: allowed to disappear. And this could happen again, And this 676 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 2: could happen again. 677 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words. 678 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 3: One of his professors exhorted the new medical students to 679 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 3: be uprighting godlike and to come between the living and 680 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 3: the dead, and Cream seems to have decided, well, I'm 681 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 3: going to be godlike, but he would decide who lived 682 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:39,720 Speaker 3: and who died. 683 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 684 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has 685 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold war Media production. Alexis and 686 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Eapan is our sound designer. 687 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does 688 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and ILSA. Brink 689 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,720 Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen 690 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and 691 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. 692 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 1: If you are an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, 693 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 1: go to midroll dot com slash ads, and if you 694 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: know of a historical true crime story that could use 695 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,360 Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email 696 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 1: us at info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen, subscribe and 697 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,240 Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever 698 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.