1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. And 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: you know, Julie, I used to, uh or I still 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: take some of these, you know, sort of health help 6 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: food store supplements for different things. You know, you know 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: you've noticed my, my, my large tray of Monday through 8 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: through Friday. And yet yes, your medicine chest sitting on 9 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: your on your desk. I've I've scaled down in recent years, 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: but but I still take a few things here and there, 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: and and I tend to stick to the things I 12 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: take because I feel like they're helping in some way 13 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: shape or form, like either it you know, relaxes me 14 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: when you know, when I'm needing a relaxation, or gives 15 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: me a little a bit of increased concentration or or 16 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: or energy or what have you. Whatever the the the 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 1: desired result happens to be. But in the back of 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: my mind there's always the idea of the Polcebo effect, 19 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: and I'm always find myself thinking, now is this working 20 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: or is this or am I just paying you know 21 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: whatever for for you know, a fake little pill and 22 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: it's and it's all in my mind. And then if 23 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: it is all in my mind, should I stop or 24 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: should I keep going to get that pulacebo effect, because 25 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: at what point can you can you still get I mean, 26 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: if you explain away the placebo, then you can't fool 27 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: your brain, can't fool you into getting that effect, right, Yeah, 28 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: I know, I know, And sometimes I may have had 29 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: the same thoughts before because I use essential oil sometimes 30 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: mainly because they smell nice, but of course they're supposed 31 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: to be mood lifting or what is essential about essential oils? Well, 32 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 1: I mean they're the distilled um oil of whatever that 33 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: thing is, so um, you know, sort of like gelfling 34 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: um oil or whatever from the dark crystal when they would, yes, 35 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: sort of, except for it's more like lavender, okay, So 36 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: it's like a lavender parent condensed oil. And in great 37 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: Fruit that's a nice one too, and it it does 38 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: have like a sort of nice uplifting center. But I 39 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: have thought before, you know, am I just is this 40 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: sort of quackery. But at the end of the day, 41 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: I don't really care because it smells good, right, and 42 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: like if that's if it's just all bs. But it 43 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: just but you know, the the underlying thing here is 44 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: that my house is going to smell nice? What harm 45 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: is it doing? Right? Yeah? So I mean that's the 46 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: whole thing about placebo, right, is we know a little 47 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: bit about it. Right. It makes us feel better in 48 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: a medical sense. You know you were talking about in 49 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: aert pill that someone might take. Um, it's actually measurable, 50 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: observable felt improvement in your health and in your behavior 51 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: and um. And it has pretty wide reaching ramifications, as 52 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: we're going to discuss in this in this podcast episode. 53 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: Like it goes beyond just you know, me shopping for vitamins. 54 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: Are you you know, getting the oil of a tree? 55 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: So yeah, it turns out the placebo effect is driving 56 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: big pharmaceutical companies crazy and like never before and that 57 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: and the reason for that is because the placebo effects 58 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: seems to be increasing in their clinical trials with new drugs. 59 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: So they're sitting there saying what was going on here? 60 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: Like we used to be able to pass you know, 61 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: nineteen out of fifty drugs through clinical trials, but now 62 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: and this is this is super crazy. Half half of 63 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: the medicines that are coming out of clinical trials are 64 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: being discounted because of the placebo effect. Basically, when you 65 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: go to these clinical trials, the medication has to go 66 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: up against the placebo and tests exactly. It's I mean, 67 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: it sounds really straightforward that, Hey, for this medication to 68 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: to work, it needs to work better than fake medication 69 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: because you have control groups in these you'll have white 70 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: Group A. Well, let's say you have a new a 71 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,839 Speaker 1: new drug that contains I don't know, um, I don't 72 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: pecans in it or something I don't know that was 73 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: just I don't imagine some imaginary drug that comes from 74 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: some plant in South America or something that it's yeah, 75 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: something that is expensive to obtain, something that's costly, something 76 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: that they may A lot of research has gone into 77 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: a lot of scientists have been hunched over labs, and 78 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: lots of money has gone into developing this pill. So 79 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: you've got that, and you give that to Group A 80 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: to treat their I don't know, their hypertension, and then 81 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: a group B gets this placebo, which is nothing. It's 82 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: it's made, it's a it's just a pill. It's like 83 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: basically like a sugar pill, and and it has no 84 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: actual there's nothing inside that pill. That can actually help them, 85 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: but they're giving it, and both groups think they're they're 86 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: getting the price research possible new super drug to treat 87 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: their hypertension. So you and again it sounds just overly simple, 88 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: but you want group A who's taking the real drug 89 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: to have better results than the group taking the sugar pill. 90 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: But it's not always the case, and unless you discuss 91 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: it's often a surprising amount of time it is not 92 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: the case. And in fact, within a depressants in particular, 93 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: they're finding astounding results, which is that seventy of the 94 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: drugs that are using anidepressants are found to be effective, 95 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: but also seventy five of the placebos are also giving 96 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: people relief. So that all of a sudden that that 97 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: puts the whole question about medication into a new light 98 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: and the approach to actually even testing them or even 99 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: assessing depression and other disorders. Um, it's actually really blown 100 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: open the whole placebo effect in general and made Big 101 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: Farm look at placebo in a new way because before 102 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: it was sort of like we just have to get 103 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: over the placebo effect. It's a problem. Yeah, and and 104 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: there's this great Wired article it's called placebos are getting 105 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: more effective. Drug makers are desperate to know why, and 106 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: they actually call out the fact that that this may 107 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: be an opportunity to actually look at the amazing ability 108 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: of the body to heal its health. Yeah. This is 109 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: the article by Wired Steve Silberman, Yeah, be Silberman, Yeah, yeah, So, 110 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's pretty fascinating to look at the issue. 111 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,119 Speaker 1: And um, I wanted just to give a little quick 112 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: history of placebo though. Oh yeah, now we're only going 113 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: we're going by Sieber's paper and going back to World 114 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: War two, right, Yeah, World War two basically you have 115 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, in Italy, there's um, there's an enthusiologist I believe, Yeah, 116 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: by the name of Henry Beecher, yea Henry Beecher. He's 117 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: attending to U. S. Troops under heavy German bombardment. And uh, 118 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: when you're treating catastrophic injuries, you need to have morphine 119 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: on hand, right, So they're pumping full Yeah, they're pumping 120 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: morphine into these guys to to deaden the pain while 121 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: they work on him. And uh, they run out of morphine. Yeah, 122 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 1: And a nurse, very savvy nurse that was working with 123 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: Henry Beecher basically pretended that she with a wounded soldier 124 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: was giving him an injection of morphine and said, I'm 125 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: giving you a really potent pain killer. Don't worry, You'll 126 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: be fine. It was in fact only saltwater. Um. But 127 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: what Beacher observed is that the wounded soldier did not 128 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: go into shock when he had his procedure done, and 129 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: that the wounded soldiers seemed to feel relief. So he 130 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: saw firsthand the effects of the placebo effect, and later 131 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: on when he went back to Harvard after the war, 132 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: he began to look at it more seriously, um, and 133 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: was now investigating the placebo effect against current day medications 134 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: of that time to see if they were really effective. 135 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: It was an incredible new idea. Actually. Yeah, in the 136 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: you put out a paper called the Powerful Placebo, publishing 137 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: the Journal of American Medical Association, and uh, it undermined 138 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,239 Speaker 1: the results of more than a dozen trials by causing 139 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: improvement that was mistakenly uh, you know, attributed to whatever 140 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: the medicinal properties were. Yeah, yeah, so it was This 141 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: was a a huge moment in modern drugs because because suddenly, 142 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: here's the placebo messing up everything that you're you're trying 143 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: to do, becoming this hurdle. And like you said, that's 144 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: kind of the history of it. It It becomes this hurdle 145 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: when uh, when perhaps they you know that you could 146 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: argue they should be looking at it and saying, well, 147 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: why why is the placebo working as opposed to why 148 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: why are drugs not working better than the pacebo? Yeah, 149 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: and with Beecher, I mean, he was just trying to 150 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: keep quackery at bay, right, and he was basically just 151 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: trying to apply this um. He wasn't necessarily thinking that 152 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: this was going to be taken up by big farmer, 153 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: nor could he have ever predicted how big this industry 154 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: would become. And as you say, it would become this 155 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: obstacle for them to to, you know, get over um. 156 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: So there you go. That's the history of it, and 157 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: that's why we have it and we know that it's effective. 158 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: But that being said, it's been a long time since 159 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: we've revisited the placebo effect, and particularly in the light 160 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: of antidepressants and stuff and what's talk about a little 161 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: bit about that later, and it still remains a fairly 162 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: unknown quantity. I mean, it's scientists continue to try and 163 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: understand it. But the will seebo effect is is in 164 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: many ways still a mystery. Yeah, and we do know 165 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: a little bit more. But I mean the question is, 166 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: what in the world is really going on in your 167 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: body when it starts to actually heal itself and give 168 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: you albeit temporary really right, placebo effect has its limits. 169 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: It's not going to cure tumor. But um, if you've say, 170 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: like you have Parkinson's or um sexual dysfunction or um 171 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: sorry for you, and you have maybe depression or something 172 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: along those lines, we know that those sort of disorders 173 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: really respond well to placebo effect. So um. And actually 174 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: it was once thought that placebo effect was a result 175 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: of our own level of gullibility or even like a 176 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: psychological trait that was related to neurosis, weakness of character, 177 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: kind of thing. Give him anything, they'll they'll give him 178 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: a sugar pill. They'll think they're they're healed. But but 179 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: it seems more than that now obviously, I mean, we 180 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: can't go so far as to, you know, scientifically say 181 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: what it's mind over matter, it's it's anything you believe 182 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: becomes real, because I don't either that's not the case, 183 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: or no belief is really strong enough to to to 184 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 1: alter physical reality. But but but something's happening, but we 185 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: see the belief system working in tandem with the body. 186 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: So uh entered Dr Fabrizio Benedetti, UM, and he actually 187 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: calls a placebo effect the placebo response because of its 188 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: self healing, and he calls it endogenous health care system. 189 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: After fifteen years of research, Benedetti has mapped a biochemical 190 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: reactions of the placebo effect and he's found that Uh. 191 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: And this is again from the Wired article quote, placebo 192 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: activated opioids not only relieve pain, they also modulate heart 193 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: rate and respiration. The neurotransmitter dopamine, when released by the 194 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: placebo treatment, helps improve motor function in Parkinson's patients. Uh. 195 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: So it's mechanisms like this that can elevate mood, sharpen 196 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: cognitive ability, alleviate jutive disorders IBS is another one. But 197 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: responsibile to this, by the way, relieve insomnia and limit 198 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: the secretion of stress related hormones like insulin in the cortisol. 199 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: So he's seeing this in action. UM. And again we're 200 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: talking about the placebo effect working in tandem with the mind, 201 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: and what this is bearing out is that the mind 202 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: is trying to anticipate the future, right it's just it's saying, Okay, 203 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,119 Speaker 1: I'm going to take this pill. I've got this condition, 204 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: and you know I already know that. Um, I already 205 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: knew what to expect in terms of relief and even 206 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: side effects, right, And so the mind is actually queuing 207 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: itself up for this and releasing those opioids, which is 208 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: amazing um. And actually one of the biggest self healing 209 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: triggers is to witness someone else experiencing the benefits of 210 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: a drug. So again, you you have this sort of 211 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: conditioning response. Well, you're you're engaging in this kind of 212 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: so the social activity of of the the doctor administering 213 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: something that that heals you. Yeah. Absolutely. In fact, there 214 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: was a researcher ted Capouch, and he recruited volunteer suffering 215 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: from IBS irritable Boll syndrome, and they were put into 216 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: three groups. One group just made uh an appointment for 217 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: treatment and they found some relief just by the act 218 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: of signing up for for treatment. The other group were 219 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: given a placebo from a medical professional who did not 220 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: engage with them at all. And then the third group 221 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: were given the placebo, but the clinician actually engaged with 222 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: that group quite a bit, talked to them about their suffering, 223 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: talked about them, um, you know how they felt about it, 224 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: and gave them some positive feedback. So again here we go. 225 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: Like you mentioned, there's there's the social aspect to it. 226 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: That group responded the best out of all three. So 227 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: the bed the beds I manner of the physician is 228 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: really important. Yeah, absolutely. Um. Steve Silverman also points out 229 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: that the color of the pill even makes it different. 230 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: This is this is like yellow pills make make the 231 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: bet the most effective antidepressants. Red pills give you a kick, 232 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: you know because it's red, like the blood of a 233 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: bull or something. Right. Adrenaline. Yeah, green reduces anxiety, you know. 234 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: Green is kind of calming. Um and uh and and 235 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: and they say that even like branding, you know, becomes 236 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: involved in it, like it's all in the packaging and 237 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: the delivery. And I mean the color thing just makes 238 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: me think, you know, it's just some like a sufficiently 239 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: sufficiently believable physician could just walk into a sick ward 240 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: with like a bag of starbursts and just start healing 241 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: people left and right. Yeah, if you have the association 242 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: that starbursts, we're going to make everything about like you know, 243 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: if maybe Star Wars had spent one hundred million dollars 244 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: on the campaign trying to link some sort of benefit 245 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: between the consumption of the chewy stuff stuck in your 246 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: teeth and your health. Um. One of the other things 247 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: too that was interesting is that it's cultural. These perceptions 248 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,719 Speaker 1: are cultural. Oh yeah, like they're the Germans, right, well, 249 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: not only the Germans, but the Italians because you're talking 250 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: about the blue pills and the red pills and so 251 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: of course the blue pills was to be soothing, right 252 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: and the red pill again it's more of an aggressive thing. 253 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: But in Italy the color of the national soccer team 254 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: is blue, so that's perceived as aggressive. And yeah, so 255 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: it comes down, you know, to that level. It's really interesting. 256 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: That is fascinating, Like I wonder how that affects like 257 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: even like international branding, you know, oh yeah, you know 258 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: if you have you have branding for for something that's 259 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: that you want the consumer to to think of it 260 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: and relax terms or soothing terms, and then in Italy 261 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: you have the angry blue and the you know, the 262 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: victorious soccer team and get them all riled up. Yeah yeah, 263 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: and you have to wonder how that extends like throughout 264 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: their society, like you know, if they've if their apartments 265 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: are all in blue, if that's not like, wow, that's 266 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: like a really aggressive bachelor. But the Germans in particular. 267 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: Anthro anthropologist Daniel Mormon um to the study and he 268 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: found that Germans are high placebo reactors and trials of 269 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: ulcer drugs, but low in trials of drugs for hypertension. 270 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: Um because hypertension is an undertreated condition in Germany. So um. 271 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: So again, it's about engaging in this in this uh, 272 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: this social maze that comes with the treatment of an 273 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: of an illness, being being aware of its treatment, seeing 274 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: um success stories either in your life or in the media, 275 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: like a lot of it. Like you know, when you 276 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: think of like anxiety or depression medications, instantly we think 277 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: of those commercials where or I guess it's also even 278 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: for things like her pies and stuff. But it's like 279 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: you know, some smiling person walking through a field and 280 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: they're happy and they're they're running and birds are singing 281 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: and it is just driving home. Take this and be 282 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: happy and you will be able to go outdoors and frolic. 283 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: That's usually the message. Oh and you'll you know, you'll 284 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: be surrounded by a bunch of people who love you. Yeah, 285 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: it's kind of the same as a Mentos commercial, except 286 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: they have to add a lot of legal text at 287 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: the end, like Mentos doesn't have to have that that 288 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: half a strain of fight. Yeah, there's there's no talk 289 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: of diarrhea and the Mentos commercial thanksfully. Um. But the 290 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: German example that is really interesting that that makes me think, 291 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: is it um again, is it sort of like this 292 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: uh anticipation like they because it is underreported, Um, what 293 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: was the hypertension is under reported? It's not as big 294 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: of a deal maybe, and they're not as conditioned to 295 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: to think as much of it as that perhaps, I 296 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: think so, Yeah, like it's undertreated, like it's just not 297 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: on people's minds as much, where whereas you know, something 298 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: like like depression is very much on everybody's minds. Everybody, 299 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: Like we just have this this uh almost like this 300 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: cult of the quest for happiness that has been pressed 301 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: upon us through uh mass media and through you know, 302 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: everybody knows somebody who takes the takes something to improve 303 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: their their daily life, whether it's uh, you know, prescote 304 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 1: medication or just some sort of weird you know, herbal 305 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: thing that they buy from the health food store. Yeah, 306 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: that's true. And just just to put that in perspective 307 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: with the statistic, let me see, in nine six there 308 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: were thirteen million antidepressants doled out and that has since 309 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: doubled to twenty six million by two thousand and seven. Yeah, So, 310 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 1: I mean, and you know, we all know that that's 311 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: something that everyone is apt to grapple with at some point. 312 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: We have plenty of statistics that tell us that, you know, 313 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: each of us is going to at some point feel 314 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: maybe a cute depression. So it's not surprising that it's 315 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: on our minds. Um. But again, you know, good getting 316 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: back to the placebo effect and why it may be 317 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: getting stronger, and going back to the commercials that you 318 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: were talking about. That actually seems to be one of 319 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: the culprits of why the placebo effect, why people in 320 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: clinical trials are feeling this conditioning to to get better 321 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: or actually self healing. Um. They think that the marketing 322 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: has just been so great and so rampant that it's 323 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: really conditioning people to already get in that mindset. We 324 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: already have studies that say that when people make an 325 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: appointment to even do this, they feel better. So that's 326 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: that's one area of it. Uh. And then another aspect 327 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: is that the way that they're classifying an illness or 328 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: disorder this is sort of interesting. And talking about depression 329 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: in particular, there's something called the Hamilton's Depression Rating Scale, 330 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: and that was created fifty years ago and it's based 331 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 1: on a study of major depressive disorder and patients in 332 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: an asylum. Okay, so you can already tell that there 333 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: are problems with this scale anyway, because fifty years ago, 334 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,719 Speaker 1: when we had a different idea of what depression was 335 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: in an asylum a small sample group. Um, So there 336 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: are people today they are saying, maybe we shouldn't take 337 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: this scale and use it particularly for disorders that have 338 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: to do with depression, and revisit this and and maybe 339 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: we'll get a better idea of what the placebo effect 340 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: is doing if we can redefine what depression is an 341 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: interesting way of looking at it. Um. Now, there are 342 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: a couple of other related This presentation is brought to 343 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: you by Intel Sponsors of tomorrow topic sample Sebo that 344 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: that are pretty fascinating. One that I ran across and 345 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: imagine you did as well, it's the honest placebo, and 346 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: I just that, well, this is kind of like what 347 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: I was talking earlier. If I, you know, if I 348 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: I have to say, you know, I have some sort 349 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 1: of herbal thing back from the health, you know, and 350 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: I don't know for certain that it's working, but I 351 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: don't know that it's not working. But if I knew 352 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 1: for a fact that it was just a sugar pill, 353 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: would it still work on me? Well, this is called 354 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: an honest placebo? Uh, this is a doctor's uh involved 355 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: in this think that the placebos work because patients think 356 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: they might be getting an active drug. But there's a 357 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: no element of deception or I mean that's the the 358 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: old version, you know. It's like there's the deception at 359 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: work that I think this is gonna work. So it does, 360 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: even it's a sugar pill. Right. But in two thousands, 361 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,719 Speaker 1: ten Harvard researchers found that even when volunteers with severe 362 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: bowel disease know they're getting a placebo, had relief in 363 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: the symptoms um which which is is is pretty amazing. Yeah. 364 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: I know. Again, it's that whole idea of like, why 365 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: aren't we studying what's going on with the body when 366 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: it's trying to self heal. And then it brings up 367 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: the question of do we must must we always have deception? Yeah? 368 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: You know, is there is there any way too to 369 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 1: have the placebo response without some sort of you know curtain, 370 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: you know, behind our understanding of what's going on? Well, 371 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: it seems like one way that it might. It's like, 372 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: even in listening to this podcast, or even in researching 373 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: this podcast, we get this idea that, oh, there's I mean, 374 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: I hate to mystify it at all, but you kind 375 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: of get this mystic idea of what is a placebo doing? 376 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 1: Maybe you know, what is my mind doing when I 377 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: take up placebo? And then it becomes this possible that 378 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 1: you get this possible expectation in your mind that even 379 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: if you take something that doesn't work, that it might work, 380 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: you know, like like that becomes the new placebo, the 381 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: new fiction for the placebo to work. Then. But see, 382 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: that's why I think it's so fascinating, because I think that, 383 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 1: you know, in an evolutionary sense, have we always had 384 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: to construct some sort of fiction in order to pull through? 385 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying is this is it 386 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: something that's comes out of evolution. Well, interestingly you should 387 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: ask that because there is a guy in the name 388 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: of Matt Rossano who's professor of psychology at Southeastern Louisiana University, 389 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: and he wrote a book called Supernatural Selection, How Religion Evolved, 390 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: And this is basically his argument. All right, Um, First, 391 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: he says that our ancestors developed complex social structures to 392 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: cope with a harsh, unforgiving world. You know, it's there, 393 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: giant mammals everywhere eating everything I have worked really hard discrete, buy, 394 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: and then I'm going to die when I'm really young, 395 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: probably eaten by a large mammal. Uh. It's it's a 396 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: rough world. So you know, you end up with this, 397 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: This social structure emerges, um and uh. And you end 398 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: up with the hierarchy in the group and uh. And 399 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: there's some probably some sense of peace or some structure 400 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: that makes you feel better about the world. Right, But 401 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: you end up with this social structure. And so you're 402 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: gonna need uh. People with with more memory are gonna 403 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: be able to better navigate it. You're gonna need a 404 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: knack for symbolic thought to to move through it. So 405 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: nature begins selecting for imaginative children. The imaginative children are 406 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: by natural selection of the ones that end up surviving, 407 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: because they have better they're better suited to navigate these 408 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: complex social relationships as adults. And since the more imaginative 409 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: children are the ones that survive, they end up bringing 410 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: this imagination into their adulthood and this birth's gods and spirits. 411 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 1: So Rossano states that early religion was was shamanistic. You know, 412 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: it's like you know, guys saying, oh, you got a 413 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: headache here, stuck on this frog, your bellies of you know, 414 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: bothering you. Well, draw this on your stomach and set 415 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: on the stone, you know, things of that nature thrown 416 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: in with some you know, not to say that all 417 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: ancient or traditional medicines are phony there, so there's some 418 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: indicial plants that we know that are used, but still humans, 419 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: uh that. He argues that that basically they had a 420 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,239 Speaker 1: health care system of ritual healing practices. You know, some 421 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 1: which may have worked and some that didn't, but there 422 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: was no real way to tell in those days, right, 423 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: But humans who participated in healing rituals were healthier thanks 424 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: to the placebo effect, and more likely to procreate. Keeping 425 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: the religions evolutionary march in motion. See that's interesting because 426 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: I read too that the placebo Again, it's highly effective 427 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: for disorders that engage the higher cortical centers, that generate 428 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: beliefs and expectations. They interpret social cues and anticipate awards. 429 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: And again this is chronic pain, sexual dysfunction, Parkinson's and 430 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: depression for example, that really responds well to this. But okay, 431 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: but what if I'm kind of a hoypochondriac. What if 432 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: I what if I am kind of a worrior? What happens? Then? 433 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess you kind of get, maybe 434 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: you just get what if I read the placebo effect right? 435 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: But but what if what if I just can't help 436 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: it focus on those list of side effects? Then you're 437 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: going to fall Praise is something called the new cebo effect. Yeah, 438 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: and it's the which we're not making up. That's not 439 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: even that's like that's actual Latin. Yes, yeah, what was 440 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: Latin for? Again? Um? If I remember correctly, it's like 441 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: um to harm? Yeah, yeah, and placebo is Latin for 442 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: to please, I believe, Yeah, but no cebo effect is 443 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: basically like the dark side of cebo effects. So think 444 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: of it. If you are anticipating getting better and getting relief, 445 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: but you're told that the drug that you are given 446 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: is going to have side effects and you're going to 447 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: vomit and you may have a rectile dysfunction. Guess what 448 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: you're going to be doing vomiting and having erected out 449 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: as such? Yes, exactly. Um, So that that's difficult, right, 450 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: And that's particularly difficult in terms of I guess you 451 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: could even say ethics if you're dealing with someone who 452 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,719 Speaker 1: is seriously sick. Um. And I don't know if they 453 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: do this with cancer treatments. I imagine that they probably do, 454 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: because I need to test it. Right, To test it, 455 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: you need a control group. Yeah, you need a control group. 456 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: And if you're in that control group and you're getting 457 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: the placebo and you're awfully sick already and then on 458 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: top of that you're getting other side effects, that that's 459 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: where some doctors are saying, Okay, that's that's not very cool. 460 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: I mean, we do need to have the control group, 461 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: and we do need to study this, but you know, 462 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: it is obviously the dark side of the sebo effect. 463 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: There were some doctors that, like early on, they thought 464 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: that that the uh that this was caused because people 465 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: were worrying as they're taking the medicine and so their 466 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:57,959 Speaker 1: stomach releasing enough acids to cause pain. But but but 467 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: they but they They found that the range of possible 468 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: um no cebo responses stretched far beyond near stomach gigs. 469 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: And what's more, they found that the these no cebo 470 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: effects weren't random. They tend to be specific to the 471 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: type of drug that patients believe they're taking. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, 472 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: it's lining up with a group. I mean with a 473 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: list of possible side effects. Yeah. I mean imagine watching 474 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 1: that commercial. I mean we all know them, right, and 475 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: it seems like that endless list that goes on forever, 476 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: never blurred vision. Yeah, wacky thoughts. Um, you know you 477 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: are going to take all of that information. Your brain 478 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: is gonna absorb it and just like your body can 479 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: heal on it, and with cebo effect, it's going to say, Okay, guys, 480 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: buckle ups can be a rough ride. Wacky thoughts ahead. Um. 481 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean it's it's kind of nuts to 482 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: think of it that way. Um. But I also wanted 483 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: to talk a little bit too. I mean, we've we've 484 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: talked about the cebo effect and how cool this is 485 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: and and obviously it bears so much more studying. But this, 486 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, I just need to caution that this is 487 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: not a reason to actually quit your meds. You know. Um, 488 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,360 Speaker 1: this is not anything that we're advocating. It's just an 489 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: interesting paradigm shift on medication and on the placebo effect 490 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,239 Speaker 1: and looking at that a little bit closer. Um. So 491 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: I just wanted to add that because obviously if you 492 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: were to, especially with antipressence, if you were to get 493 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: off of them, you'd have horrible withdrawal symptoms. Also, each 494 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: person is unique to their medication and to their conditions. 495 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: So h there you go again. Yeah, don't stop your 496 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: your medications, don't don't don't make any medical decisions based 497 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: on what you hear in this podcast. Yeah. Absolutely, Um, 498 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: you should always consult with your doctor, speaking of whom. Um. 499 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 1: You know, perhaps this isn't the best place to throw 500 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: this information out, but I did want to mention that 501 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: how widespread placebo effect is. And this is from one study, 502 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 1: and albeit's one study. It's in Chicago from two thousand 503 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: and seven. They were doctors that were surveyed there and 504 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: they were asked about whether or not they had ever 505 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: prescribed the placebo effect, or rather, I should say, had 506 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 1: they ever prescribed something that they knew wasn't necessarily going 507 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: to work for their patients or it was at such 508 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,479 Speaker 1: a low level dosage that it wouldn't do anything in 509 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 1: order to induce the placebo effect. Half of those doctors 510 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: had done that. Now they didn't actually write pallacebo on 511 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: the Yeah, fake pills, I think is what they wrote. 512 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: My mother in law frequently uses the placebo effect on uh, 513 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: my brother in law's kids. They'll complain there because you know, 514 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: they're kids, they're always complaining of something. And she'll get 515 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: like like gummy vitamins and so it's like, oh you oh, 516 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: you've got a stomach ach, oh your your head. Here, 517 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: take one of these and it works like a charm. 518 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: They just gummy vitamins. That's uh. We'll have to put 519 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: them in back pocket for my two year old. They'll 520 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: be very warm if you keep them in your back 521 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: pocket though. Yeah, but yeah, that's nice. Yeah, the kids 522 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: like a good warm com Okay, maybe not um, but 523 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: you know, here we go. I mean, that's that's This 524 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: is just an interesting time to to look at this information. 525 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: Oh and I wanted to also man into that drug 526 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: companies are paying, as I said, huge attention to this 527 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: right now. And typically they have been really um covert 528 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: about their operations and they haven't let a lot of 529 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: their data out of the bag, so to speak. But 530 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: they actually are pulling together and trying to get a 531 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: study of the placebo effect and pulling their research all 532 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: the drug companies, which is pretty interesting. And I believe 533 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: the ni H is also heading this up. So it'd 534 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: be interesting to see in the next couple of years 535 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: what sort of data they get out of this. And 536 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: also that I mean, we're talking about a lot of money, 537 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: all the money. And they also know that that some 538 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: of their their big marquee sellers like Prozac may not 539 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: actually cut the muster these days if they were too, 540 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: because they actually, uh retrial some of these just for 541 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: for fun, and noticed that the protact is actually not 542 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: as effective as it was once deemed. And again this 543 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: could be because the placebo effect is becoming more rampant trials. 544 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: But there you go. Don't get off the protect though, Yeah, 545 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: stay on it. If here on it again, check with 546 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: your doctor. Absolutely. Well, Hey, we have some interesting feedback 547 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: here from some from some listeners. Our first bit of 548 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: mail comes from Ola delhi Um one of our listeners, 549 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: Oladelli rides Hi, listen to your podcast where you talk 550 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: about the robot singularity and how this creepy one and 551 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: this creepy one about cyber immortality. So it gets one 552 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: thinking what if my memories representing past actions and experiences 553 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: and and Myers Briggs Briggs profiles used to generate new 554 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: actions and experiences were mapped to a robots century inactions system. 555 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: Sure surely very deep and all that information and blueprint 556 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: for future actions. The robot could act independently. I reckon 557 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: it could sort of understand and hints, work towards my 558 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: goals and play out a version of me which would 559 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: be based on me, but different from me, independently of me. 560 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: Could it then comp compete with me for my friends 561 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: attention or be jealous of me if I got to know, 562 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: if it got to know me, or would I be 563 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: jealous of it? Would that be considered the singularity of 564 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: some sort? I don't know, it's interesting. I mean you 565 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: know that there there's been an intranet created for robots, right, 566 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: and if you splice the singularity. With that, then you 567 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: could very well have your robot self hacking your Facebook 568 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: account and taking you over. You're right well in your 569 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: cyber presence, suddenly liking things you don't like, like going 570 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: up in its own Yeah, yeah, kind of trolling you. Um, 571 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I kind of just but I mean just 572 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: to extend out that logic, kind of interesting about what 573 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: how all those parts might work together. Yeah, some good 574 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: good brain fadder there. And uh, speaking of the cyber 575 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: Immortality podcast, we received a lot of cool comments from 576 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: folks who really dug that and uh uh, you know, 577 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: we can't read them all, but I have a bit 578 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: here from a listener by the name of Crystal, and 579 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: Crystal relates that she had lost a friend and uh 580 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: and then goes on to add uh. Since that point, 581 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: I have not been able to check my voicemails because 582 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: my inbox is literally full of messages from this individual, 583 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: built up about a week while my phone was out 584 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: of minutes. This has really been bothering me lately. And 585 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: then I listened to the cyber Immortality podcast. It gave 586 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: me a whole new perspective on the digital bit of 587 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: information I have of this individual. I am happy to 588 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: report my inbox is now empty. Well, I saved a 589 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: few of them and I have you guys to thank 590 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: for it. Thanks a lot. But by the way, don't 591 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: oh wait than she had something else. But if anyway, 592 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: that's the key bit that I thought was was really interesting, 593 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: that stuff that you know, obviously a lot of people 594 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: are are having to take the digital realm into account 595 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: and dealing with with the deaths of friends and loved 596 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: one these days, and uh, um, it was it was 597 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: it really interesting to hear some tidbits from a few 598 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: different listeners about this. Yeah, we did. We had some 599 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: some really nice email about that, and people who had 600 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: UM like Crystal talked about ways that they were revisiting 601 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: actually people they had lost online. So it's very interesting stuff. 602 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: And uh, if you have any cool feedback to at 603 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: this um, if you have some interesting stories about your 604 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: own experiences with placebos, for instance, we would love to 605 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: hear about them or your own thoughts on placebos. Or 606 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: if you're a doctor of any kind or engaged in 607 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: the medical industry or the pharmaceutical drug industry, Uh, let 608 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: us know, shoot us, shoot us an email, or uh 609 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook or Twitter, or blow the mind 610 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: on both of those get in and again. If you're 611 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: a big farmer, you can. You can always rant to 612 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: us blow the mind at how stuff works dot com. 613 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit 614 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. To learn more about the podcast, 615 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: click on the podcast icon in the upper right corner 616 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: of our homepage. The how stuff Works iPhone app has 617 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: a RYE. Download it today on iTunes.