1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,599 Speaker 1: Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here. 2 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, 3 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for 4 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 2: the future of the show. 5 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: This is the only place where you can find honest 6 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does 7 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: not exist anywhere else. 8 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please 9 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and 10 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 2: you'll access to our full shows, unedited, ad free, and 11 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 2: all put together for you every morning in your inbox. 12 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent 13 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints 14 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: dot com. 15 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 3: Joining us and our Get to Know a Journalist series 16 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 3: today is Christian Parenti, longtime reporter, academic, writer, author. He's 17 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 3: in DC, so I wanted to get him into the studio. 18 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 3: We've covered your work here over the years. Kind of 19 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 3: a kind of classic thinker on the left, A way 20 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 3: fair way to put it. 21 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 4: That what they say, let's good with that. 22 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 3: So that's nice because you never know exactly what you're 23 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 3: gonna say, which is which is useful. Like oftentimes when 24 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 3: people call themselves like an independent thinker. Of those people, 25 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 3: I can predict with one hundred percent accuracy what their 26 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 3: view is going to be on a particular issue, which 27 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 3: calls into question just how independent the thinking is. So 28 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 3: I think if you got to keep people on their 29 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 3: toes a little bit more, because because things change, like 30 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 3: conditions change, like ideas evolve, like eras become new eras 31 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 3: Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift. 32 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,839 Speaker 5: Yes, YouTube, the next tour will not be the Aerostore. 33 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 6: It won't be the Airstore. 34 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 5: And you may think you're still talking about the arastur, 35 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 5: like what are you doing? 36 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 7: You're behind and Christian Prenty would never but you two 37 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 7: have known each other for a while. So people's intrigue 38 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 7: over Christian PARENTI may have been peaked during the Ryan 39 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 7: Grimm in the episode that air a few days ago. 40 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 7: And so why don't you both tell us how you 41 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 7: know each other and the various misadventures you've been on. 42 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, if people want to skip this part, they can, 43 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 3: they can scroll ahead. Actually, yeah, do we have that 44 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 3: element that the AVO thing? Yeah, throw that up because 45 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 3: this is a this is such a fun picture. 46 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 5: Oh my, gosh, there we are. Oh my, that's a throwback. 47 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 4: Ryan's haircut has not changed not changed much. 48 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 7: I love that it's black and white. I know it's 49 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 7: from like the early aughts, but I'll just. 50 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 4: Pretend to and Ryan had very similar haircuts. 51 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 5: We have the identical haircut. Is that amazing? 52 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,239 Speaker 6: Parenty, you're mogging, as the kids would. 53 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 4: Say, that's over my head. I don't know what that means, 54 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 4: but I'm hoping it's good. Whatever. 55 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 5: You're about to kill someone trying to. 56 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 4: When I was young, no, I whiz in middle age. 57 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 3: So that was that was two thousand and five. Morales. 58 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 3: I think we had just landed in La Pause. So 59 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 3: Morales was flying from coach Obamba to La Pause. He 60 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 3: was at the time the head of the coca growers 61 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 3: union and had declared that he's going to overthrow and 62 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 3: the Bolivian government, and we just happened to be on 63 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 3: the flight. You would interviewed them a couple weeks earlier. 64 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 3: We have to be on the flight with them. We 65 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 3: were interviewing coca growers and other militants throughout the Japari region. 66 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 3: I was down there because and I told this story 67 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 3: last week, I had just gotten fired, but my boss 68 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 3: wanted me to stay on for two months because I 69 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 3: had a bunch of like projects. This is that the 70 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 3: weed legalization place. And I had bills that were going 71 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 3: through the state legislatures. They're like, you're fired, but these 72 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 3: are important bills. You need to stay for like two 73 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 3: months until they've gone through the process. And I remember 74 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 3: calling you and you're like or maybe it was an 75 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 3: email because you were down in Bolivia, like you don't 76 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 3: know them anything. They fired you. That's not how that's 77 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 3: not how this works. They're like, come down here and 78 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 3: just do some reporting on this looming uprising. 79 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 4: And the window was closing because it was it was 80 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 4: a very slow siege of Lapause, which is an old 81 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 4: tradition goes back to at least the eighteenth century of 82 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 4: you know, indigenous communities like just slowly gathering and you 83 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 4: know building, the non violent siege of the capitol. And 84 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 4: so that was underway, and I remember being like, yeah, 85 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 4: you know, you've got to get down here because pretty 86 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 4: soon the airport's going to close. 87 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 3: Because there's only like several ways into the city that's 88 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 3: what two miles or whatever above and they had level and. 89 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 5: They can block it, they can block it off. 90 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, they would have little uh, they made bombs like 91 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 4: of you know dynamite and rocks and nails because a 92 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 4: lot of people were still mining, and even if they 93 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 4: weren't mining, there was that you know, even the coca 94 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 4: growers had that sort of like mining culture with dynamite. 95 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 4: Everybody knew how to use dynamite. Yeah, and they were 96 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 4: at that point, like you know, selectively letting trucks, and 97 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 4: it was clear that pretty soon it was you know, 98 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 4: nothing was getting in and out. And indeed the Mesa 99 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 4: government at the time did fall from all that. 100 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 5: Yeah, and then Menoralys ends up becoming president. 101 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. 102 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 7: Yeah, and so we just kind of started in media 103 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 7: res there because of maybe that picture itself. But Christian, 104 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 7: could you tell us a little bit about how ended up, 105 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 7: you know, in two thousand and five in lapause, like 106 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 7: take us back to the beginning of how your career 107 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 7: went in that direction. 108 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 4: Okay. I was, well, you know, my father was he 109 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 4: is ninety two now, and he is actually you know, 110 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 4: quite old. You know, he was an academic and was 111 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 4: redbaited out of academia because he was he was a 112 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 4: he was a communist, and so to some extent I 113 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 4: inherited the family business of being an intellectual. You know, 114 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 4: I didn't have to do that. But that was sort 115 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 4: of you know what I saw. So I knew from 116 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 4: an early age kind of I wanted to write. And 117 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 4: I'm also very dyslexic, and I wasn't a very good writer. 118 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 4: And around age nineteen, I was going to a very 119 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 4: weird college that later folded under somewhat hilarious circumstances, a 120 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 4: place called the New College of California that finally folded. 121 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 5: When I grew up into the New College of Florida. 122 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 4: No, it's not. When a group of Nepalese hustlers hustled, 123 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 4: hustled the president for a fake degree and then got 124 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 4: caught committing murder, and so they finally, like the accreditation 125 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 4: tailors all this time, Yeah, the accreditation group came in. 126 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 4: It was like, and I over pulling your license. But 127 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 4: I was on. I hitchhiked out to California at age 128 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 4: nineteen from Vermont. I couldn't really write, and I met 129 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 4: this journalist named Johann Carlisle who had a little publication 130 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 4: called Propaganda Review. I was helping him out a little bit, 131 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 4: and I asked him, like, how do I learn to write? 132 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 4: So well? The way I learned to write was doing 133 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 4: a community radio, and he pointed me in the direction 134 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 4: of KPFA, which is the pacifica station in the Bay Area, 135 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 4: which still has a program that trains radio journalists. And 136 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 4: a lot of people who ended up at NPR came 137 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 4: through this much more left wing community radio station, which 138 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 4: was always that bothered me that they would come there, 139 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 4: get this free education and then go on and and 140 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 4: you know, sometimes just be stenographers for power. But the 141 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 4: deal was they would train you in the evening. It 142 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 4: was a pretty rigorous training course, and then you had 143 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 4: to work for free one day a week for a year. 144 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 4: And basically what happened is, you know, some people would 145 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 4: drop out and not pay their debt, and other people 146 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 4: would become completely committed and often become full time journalists, 147 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 4: maybe get jobs there. And so that's what I did. 148 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 4: I learned to write by doing radio at KPFA first, 149 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 4: and then I worked on a radio show called Flashpoints 150 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 4: with a guy named Dennis Bernstin that's still going on. 151 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 4: And then I moved to New York to finish college 152 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 4: at the New School, which is also now in crisis, 153 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 4: and I worked at WBAI volunteering and freelancing, and I 154 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 4: had a little paid gig for a while. WBAI was 155 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 4: also is also a PACIFICA station, and it was its 156 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 4: program director at that time was a guy named Samory Marksman, 157 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 4: who unfortunately died young of a heart attack in his 158 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 4: late fifties. And he was really aeradite, a character from 159 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 4: a different era. He was from some very small Cribban Island, 160 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 4: like you know, Martinique or Saint Kitts, something like that. 161 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 4: And he was a scholar and a journalist. And I 162 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 4: kind of liked that idea to it, being like a 163 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 4: scholar and a journalist. And so I had a little 164 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 4: during the Somalia engagement when US troops were in Somalia, 165 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 4: I had a little program once a week, fifteen minutes 166 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 4: Somalia Watch. So I did radio journalism and then I 167 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 4: finally published a piece when I was in my maybe 168 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 4: on twenty four or twenty five about policing and in 169 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 4: Z magazine. And I wrote for Z magazine for a while, 170 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 4: and along the way, well you know, I think it 171 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 4: is yeah, along the. 172 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 5: Way, it was a big deal. 173 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 4: It was a big deal, and it was it was 174 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 4: sort of like it you know, there had been a 175 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 4: kind of real lull for the left, and then Z 176 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 4: magazine came along. It was like, oh, the Left isn't 177 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 4: fully dead. And one of the big stories that I 178 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 4: did early on that affected me and sort of helped 179 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 4: me along was I remember I was interviewing Mike Davis, 180 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 4: the late Mike Davis, who was a historian of Los Angeles, 181 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 4: and I asked him after the interview, I said, any 182 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 4: stories you think I should be working on? And this 183 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 4: was right after the Crypsblood Gang truce and the riots, 184 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 4: and he said, yeah, you should do a story about 185 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 4: Dwayne Holmes, the guy who started the Crips Blood gang 186 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 4: trus I said, okay, and he put me in touch 187 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 4: with Dwayne Holmes's mother and the story of the gang 188 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 4: truce was amazing. Everybody thought that the verdict that, you know, 189 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 4: Rodney King, African American motorist is beaten by these LAPD officers. 190 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 4: Cam quarters are new. Some guy's got in the video 191 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 4: camera for Christmas and he's filming randomly and he films 192 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 4: this beating. And nowadays it's kind of hard to imagine 193 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 4: what that was like because there's images everywhere. But in 194 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 4: those days, whoa like to see this? Very I would 195 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 4: say images for some person's camera catching this police brutality. 196 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 4: This was incredible. It was really arresting. So there was 197 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 4: a trial and all the officers got off and so 198 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 4: then there were massive riots. And right after the riots, 199 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 4: a gang truce was announced in Los Angeles and it 200 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 4: quickly spread throughout the country. Not all over the country, 201 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 4: but there was then a gang truce among the vice 202 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 4: lords and disciples in Chicago. There were like truces all 203 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 4: over the country. So everyone thought that the truce came 204 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 4: out of the riots, but the real story was that 205 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 4: actually the truce had been worked on for almost six 206 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 4: months prior to the riots. This guy Dwayne Holmes, who 207 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 4: was He came from Watts and I mean, like his 208 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 4: story you almost had to like if it wasn't really, 209 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 4: you'd think it was like invented. It was like there 210 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 4: were these three housing projects in Watts and there were 211 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 4: these there were two cripseets and one blood set and 212 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 4: they had this three way fratricidal war. They had all 213 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 4: gone to school together. There had been a paint factory. 214 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 4: Dwayne Holmes's father had worked in the paint I believe 215 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 4: he died. Eventually the paint factory is closed. It's torn down. 216 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 4: There used to be these seventies era, you know, social 217 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 4: welfare programs that called teen posts. And Dwayne said, yeah, 218 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 4: well they closed the teen Post when I was about 219 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 4: eight or nine, and so we would go on the 220 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 4: freeway overpass and throw rocks at cars instead. The paint 221 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 4: you know, the teen post has shut down. The working 222 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 4: class jobs at the paint factory disappear. Eventually the site 223 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 4: of the paint factory becomes jail. Anyway, long story short, 224 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 4: Dwayne Holmes is his cousin is murdered by the LAPD. 225 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 4: They're not involved in anything. They come around the corner 226 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 4: during a police raid in the Imperial Courts projects and 227 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 4: sky Tiny is shot and killed and left to bleed out. 228 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 4: And Dwayne's mother had raised him, and she is furious, 229 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 4: so she starts a group called Mothers Against Police Brutality, 230 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 4: which involves black, Latino and Southeast Asian mothers. And as 231 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 4: part of that, she says to Dwayne, you guys need 232 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 4: a ceasefire, and she leans on her son and he 233 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 4: goes and he communicates through was he he was a 234 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 4: heavy duty I think Imperial Court's cryp and he was 235 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 4: a crip. I forget which weather it was, it was 236 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 4: Jordan Down's and puerial courts and then the Bounty hundred 237 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 4: Bloods in Nickoson Gardens. And so he communicated through someone 238 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 4: in the church to an old friend of his who 239 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 4: was on the opposing side. So I'm gonna come over 240 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 4: and talk to you, and they and they started these meetings, 241 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 4: just a couple o gs, and then every weekend it 242 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 4: grew and grew and grew, and you had these like 243 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 4: hundreds of these guys who had been shooting each other 244 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 4: and killing each other. This was like serious gang violence 245 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 4: late eighties into the early nineties. You know, the murder 246 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 4: rate in the US peaks in the early nineties, and 247 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 4: you know, and they're like hugging and crying, and they're like, 248 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 4: we used to play together as kids, and we're trying 249 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 4: to kill each other. So and they actually they signed 250 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 4: a ceasefire document that was their language, wasn't a true 251 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 4: ceasefire a day before the riots, day before the verdict 252 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 4: and the riots and there is and then what happens 253 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 4: is a concerted campaign by the LAPD and I'm pretty 254 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 4: sure the FBI to sabotage all of this. And Dwayne 255 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 4: Holmes was set up on a he was convicted from 256 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 4: a ten dollars robbery that he didn't commit at some 257 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 4: like peace oriented you know, teen. 258 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 6: Event sabotage to lock these guys. 259 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, and he was locked up for seven years. Jerry Brown, 260 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 4: who you know, was both the youngest and then the 261 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 4: oldest governor of California and also the only governor of 262 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 4: California who was the son of a governor, was at 263 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 4: that time out of office and had been, you know, 264 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 4: trying to be presidential candidate. He spoke at Dwayne's hearing like, 265 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 4: I mean, all sorts of heavy duty people were like, hey, 266 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 4: this guy is a serious community leader. Yeah, and he was. 267 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 4: He had to do I think it was like five 268 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 4: of the seven years anyway. But I mean those kinds 269 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 4: of stories again and again and again, those that first 270 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 4: generation of OG gangsters who put down the guns and 271 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 4: led this ceasefire. A lot of them were put in jail, harassed, haunted. 272 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 4: So that I followed that story and I was into 273 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 4: criminal justice. Actually, speaking of criminal justice, I was roommates 274 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 4: around that time with Alex Vittali, who's sort of in 275 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 4: the news these days around from Mdan Dinas. 276 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's the police abolitionist. YEA, what the book was 277 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 3: called and the End of the Police. Yeah yeah. 278 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 4: I continued my focus was criminal justice because I lived 279 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 4: in California and there was a lot of it around, 280 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,239 Speaker 4: and I was, you know, I had been an activist 281 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 4: doing Central American solidarity, you know, getting arrested, not getting arrested, 282 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 4: doing direct action, and US lefties had a kind of 283 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 4: simplistic analysis of like we'd see these you know, police 284 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 4: actions on the street in the Mission District in San 285 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 4: Francisco where I lived, and would just sort of like 286 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 4: try to map on some analysis from El Sabado or Guatemalan. 287 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 4: I was like, well, this is not that doesn't quite work, 288 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 4: Like what's going on here? Because these gangsters are not 289 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 4: in rebellion against the capital assystem there. I mean, they 290 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 4: were like wreaking havoc in their own communities, And Okay, 291 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 4: the police repression is repressive, but it's not. This is 292 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 4: not a rebellion that's being suppressed, right, So what's going on? 293 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 4: And then that led to my first book, Lockdown America. 294 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 4: And I went to graduate school at the London School 295 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 4: of Economics along the way, and I also reported from 296 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 4: Central America, studied Spanish down there, spent some time with 297 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 4: the FMLN because there were there were a very few 298 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 4: Americans who had joined up with the FMLN, and there 299 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 4: was a person from Vermont, where I was raised, who 300 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 4: was a cinematagu who was a videographer who had been 301 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 4: with the trade union movements in El Salvador, and then 302 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 4: the gorillas. The FMLN took the capital of San Salvador 303 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 4: and held it for two weeks, but they couldn't get 304 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 4: the top army leadership stellami order like board planes for Miami. 305 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 4: If like, if the military leadership had panicked and cracked 306 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 4: and left, the gorillas would have taken over the country. 307 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 4: And they started bombing the working clad. First they occupied 308 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 4: you know, the barrios, and they were the civilians were 309 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 4: getting bombed. So then they occupied basically the Beverly Hills escalone, 310 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 4: the Beverly Hills of San Salvador. But after two weeks 311 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 4: of holding the capitol, they had to fall back into 312 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 4: the hills and so a lot of people who'd been 313 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 4: in the social movements went with them, and so this 314 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 4: family friend was one of those people, and long story short, 315 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 4: I managed to make contact with her and then spent 316 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 4: some time with the f Milan and then went back 317 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 4: after the war, you know, after the peace agreements when 318 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 4: the crime wave began, and then it went off to 319 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 4: graduate school and so I was always doing journalism and academia. 320 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 4: And so my first book, Lockdown in America, was sort 321 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 4: of drawn from my PhD, but the PhD was much 322 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 4: more specific. It was about anti homeless policing in San 323 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 4: Francisco and why did that happen? And the answer was 324 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 4: because of the de industrialization and financialization of the American 325 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 4: economy and the way that that changes the role of 326 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 4: the cities and how cities then are faced with this 327 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 4: problem of visible poverty that they have to manage because 328 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 4: under you know, when San Francisco was a light industrial ports, 329 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 4: it didn't really matter if there were homeless people in 330 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 4: the street. There also weren't as many holmeless people. They're 331 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 4: a lot more working poor, but it didn't really matter 332 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 4: because it was like a different economy. But when it's 333 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 4: conventions and tourism, then it really matters. And it's like, 334 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 4: if there isn't like tons of money coming from the 335 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 4: federal government for social programs and housing, and there is 336 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 4: tons of money coming from the federal government for policing, 337 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 4: what are you going to do as mayor when there's 338 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 4: like hundreds and hundreds of people camped in front of 339 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 4: city Hall and what and you have people saying, you know, 340 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 4: we're going to cancel the dentists of America whatever, are 341 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,479 Speaker 4: not coming back. You know, if you don't get rid 342 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 4: of these people. It's like So that was and then 343 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 4: you know, I could go on and I wrote. I 344 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 4: wrote another book about surveillance and then and I always 345 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 4: so conflict reporting was something else I did. And then 346 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 4: after I got my PhD, I got a series of 347 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 4: postdoctoral fellowships and I took those to the Unity Graduate 348 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 4: Center and I went to graduate school, the London School 349 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 4: of Economics, and I was there doing postdoctoral research. But 350 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 4: that's when the war in Afghanistan jumped off and I 351 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 4: found myself in these There were great seminars David Harvey 352 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 4: and the late Neil Smith. David Harvey, for people don't know, 353 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 4: as a British Marxist who's been in America for like 354 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 4: thirty years, and he's like, you know, he's like the 355 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 4: top classical Marxists scholar. He's getting quite old. But you know, 356 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 4: there were some great conversations. But there was also an 357 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 4: element of just like being in these seminars with this 358 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 4: like you know, philosophy graduate students, and it was like, 359 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 4: we're bombing Afghanistic what nobody knows anything about what's going on. 360 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 4: I was like, I got to get out of here. 361 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 4: I gotta go. And you know, David Harvey and Neil 362 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 4: Smith were kind enough to be like, well, you know, 363 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 4: you're supposed to be a scholar, supposed to be academic, 364 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 4: but yeah, sure if you want to go report, and 365 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 4: that they'd actually they I brought my own funding and 366 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 4: then I actually got funding from a big grant that 367 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 4: they'd gotten. So they were really really quite cool about it. 368 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 4: I mean very few academics would have been like, you 369 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 4: want to go to Afghanistan and write news stories like 370 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 4: and we're supposed to pay for that. They were like, okay, 371 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 4: you know, give a shot to it. 372 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 3: So you've been you know, either protesting as war or 373 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 3: covering war, you know, most of your adult life. 374 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know Central America rack Infghanistan. And so so 375 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 5: let's bring that up to today. 376 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 3: So this week you've got the Trump administration swooping into Venezuela, yeah, 377 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 3: and snatching Maduro leaving with him. Yeah, apparently they're going 378 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 3: to put them on trial, which is a comical idea. 379 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 3: I was surprised to like the indictment is like, I 380 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 3: don't know about this. 381 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 5: Like they've got the machine guns. 382 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 3: They have a yes, jarge, they said they were Joshua 383 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 3: with the value possession of machine guns. 384 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 5: It's a president of a country. He has a military 385 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 5: felling possession. 386 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 4: He was on a military base. 387 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 5: It's like, you can't have machine guns on a military note. 388 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 4: Ridiculous. 389 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know they've got a they've got a 390 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 3: general that they indicted or convicted maybe, uh, you know 391 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 3: a couple of months ago. 392 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 4: Who turned state evidans. 393 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 3: Who's gonna it won't be hard for them to find 394 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 3: people who for whatever they're being offered. We'll get up 395 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 3: and say what maybe needs to be said to a 396 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 3: jury to get that done. Anyway, that aside, how are 397 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 3: you thinking now about the Trump administration and it's place 398 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 3: in the pantheon of war versus non interventionism. 399 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 4: They're much more bellicost than they were the first time around. 400 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 4: There is there is an element to all this which 401 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 4: is still destructive of the old American empire. I mean 402 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 4: talking about taking Greenland that implicitly is threatening NATO. But yeah, no, 403 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 4: it's it's it's horrendous, it's criminal. This attack on Venezuela. 404 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 4: It you know, trying to figure out what's really going 405 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 4: on is interesting and difficult. Anya Parampaul had an interview 406 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 4: she did yesterday or day before that was very good 407 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,719 Speaker 4: where she pointed out like that there hasn't been regime change. 408 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 4: You know, it's like. 409 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 5: She just has a book. 410 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 3: She has a book out or coming out soon. That's 411 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 3: right on Venezuela and in the twenty nineteen coup, right. 412 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 4: That's right. Yeah, she would be a good interview. 413 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 5: Yeah too. 414 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 4: Delsea Rodriguez, the vice president. I mean it seems that 415 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 4: her brother, Jorge Rodriguez, was you know, in contact with 416 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 4: the US. I mean there's questions about I mean there 417 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 4: was you know, they how did this rate go down? 418 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 4: And the Trump administration has said they're not going to 419 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,959 Speaker 4: work with Machado, that she doesn't have the respect, and 420 00:21:59,000 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 4: it seems like. 421 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 3: They're getting eighty percent of the vote, I mean eighteen 422 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 3: months ago. 423 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 4: This could go any number of ways, right, Venezuela could explode, 424 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 4: It could fall apart into civil war. There could be 425 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 4: like warring factions within the Chavista government there it could 426 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 4: hold together. And you know, I don't think the US 427 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 4: is going to put boots on the ground, because I mean, 428 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 4: I may be wrong about that, but I think that 429 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 4: would be really insane. I mean Caracas. I spent a 430 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 4: bunch of time in Caracas. In fact, I went down 431 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 4: there with another guy who was a roommate with me 432 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 4: and Alexis Holly back in the day, guy named John Marshall, 433 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 4: who's now a researcher for United Food and Commercial Workers Union. 434 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 4: We did the first story in Venezuela in ninety nine, 435 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 4: and then I went back in two thousand and five 436 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 4: and spend a bunch of time there for the Nation. 437 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 4: And you know, there are huge parts of Caracas that 438 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 4: are under the control of sort of quasi military I 439 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 4: mean quasi revolutionary, militarized gangs that many which trace their 440 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 4: roots back to urban guerrilla movements in the seventies. I mean, 441 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 4: the place is pretty violent, and you hear about the 442 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 4: Collectivo's they're kind of part of that scene. So an 443 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 4: occupation would be insane. Doesn't mean they wouldn't try it. 444 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 4: One could also imagine possibly that there is that that 445 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 4: Rodriguez is going to sort of shift course and that 446 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 4: there's a way in which Trump could remove I'm not 447 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 4: saying this is going to happen, but I could. This 448 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 4: would probably be the most rational thing for them to do, 449 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 4: is to least likely. Yeah, it's to basically like you know, 450 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 4: you know, for Trump to pretend that he's like seizing 451 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 4: the oil. But you know, why are you know why 452 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 4: is Chevron the only firm there. It's because of US 453 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 4: imposed sanctions, EU imposed sanctions, and UK impost sanctions. In 454 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 4: two thousand and five, when I was there, you still 455 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 4: had Halliburton and Slumberg. You know, all these oil serve, 456 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 4: oil servicing companies were down there. These companies are not 457 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 4: there because they don't want to get in trouble the US. 458 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 4: The Venezuelan government would be totally open to having investment. 459 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 4: The reason that Conico, Phillips and Exon Mobil had their 460 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 4: concessions taken back. I nationalized first of all, you know, 461 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 4: that was two thousand and five, That was two thousand 462 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 4: and seven, and the Venezuelan and Venezuelan oil industry was 463 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 4: nationalized in nineteen seventy six. You know when Google Chavas 464 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 4: was whatever, a teenager or early twenties or something like 465 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 4: he didn't do it right. He inherited a nationalized oil industry. 466 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 4: But people were talking about, oh, the nationalization of two 467 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 4: thousand and seven. These were two American firms that had 468 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 4: stopped producing and we're funding the opposition and Venezuela. And 469 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 4: Derment was like, hey, the deal was, you guys developed 470 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 4: these resources, and you pay us a cut so that 471 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 4: we can run this like social welfare system here, and 472 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 4: if you're just gonna sit on it, then we're taking 473 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 4: it back from you, right, And that was all bound 474 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 4: up with the early onset of these sections. 475 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 3: So if I'm wrong, but under the arrangement, they would 476 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 3: have been allowed to keep their investment, but they just 477 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 3: couldn't have a controlling share anymore, so that the Venezuelan 478 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 3: government could start production. So like, okay, we're calling the shots. 479 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 3: You guys can still do the work, still get paid. Yeah, 480 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 3: you might keep your ownership. 481 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 4: My understanding was like if you go back to the 482 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 4: original deal, like we want you here producing oil, but 483 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 4: if you're going to like play games like you don't 484 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 4: actually own this, you know you have a contract to exploit. 485 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 3: It, and your contract is not to fund the opposition 486 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 3: to get us out, to get yourself a better contract, 487 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 3: and not to. 488 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,719 Speaker 4: Hold these resources off the market. Now you're not not 489 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 4: here to like, you know, mess with us, So you 490 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 4: could you could imagine how like the sanctions are removed 491 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 4: and Trump is like, we're exploiting the oil. We're like, 492 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 4: you know, going in there and taking it where it's 493 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 4: Venezuela's like we're getting you know, we're renegotiating a relationship 494 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 4: with the United States. We're getting the sanctions removed. And 495 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 4: because the sanctions are are crushing, you know. So I 496 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 4: don't know, or there could be you know that that 497 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 4: rod Vegas could be going in that direction. There could 498 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 4: be other lents in the military, in the cha Vista 499 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 4: government that are like, this woman's a sellout. We got 500 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 4: to like, you know, put an end to this and 501 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 4: have a cueta who knows Roriguez herself. 502 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 3: And I'm curious what you think about her and her family. 503 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 3: You know that her dad was this you know, socialist 504 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 3: leader who was killed with CIA involvement. You know, well, 505 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 3: you know, very well regarded revolutionary. So she comes from this, 506 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 3: she and her brother come from this like family. How 507 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 3: well regarded is she like that doesn't always mean that 508 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 3: you're going to be a revolutionary. 509 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 4: Well, I you know, I don't know. I haven't been 510 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 4: to venezuel for a long time, so I don't know. 511 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 4: But I mean I think that the government still has 512 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 4: a lot of support. There've been big protests in you know, 513 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 4: Caracas and other cities demanding the return of Maduro. So 514 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 4: I mean there's been conflict. I think, you know, probably 515 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 4: on the streets people regard the government well, but that 516 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 4: within the you know, at the higher levels there's fact 517 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 4: and I don't I cannot speak with any authority on 518 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 4: that level of maschinations. But but yeah, it's awful and 519 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 4: then threatening, you know, the President of Columbia and talking 520 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 4: about taking Greenland. I mean, this is all it's all insane. Now. 521 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 4: Of course, in the background is China, you know, And 522 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 4: I mean there's a way which this seems to be 523 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 4: a struggle over you know, what model of development will 524 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 4: be going forward, and you know, the Belton Road initiative. 525 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 4: This is China's response to basically the overproduction of capital, 526 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 4: the overcumulation of capital. I mean, China is running into 527 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 4: the problem that Marxen Angles laid out in the Manifesto 528 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 4: when there were kids in eighteen forty eight. They're like, 529 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 4: part of the problem with capitalism is that it's really 530 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 4: really good at producing wealth, and then you have too 531 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 4: much money, too much wealth, and not enough demand, and 532 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 4: you get this crash. He's like, and I'm my crashes 533 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 4: his booms and it's like, so China has all this 534 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 4: excess capital and they're deploying it through the Belton Road 535 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 4: of just like building infrastructure and thereby also trying to 536 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 4: like build markets and connect the world, and the US 537 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 4: clearly seems to be about trying to block that. I mean, 538 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 4: there's a way in which the Ukraine War is like, 539 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 4: you know, centerpiece of Belton Road initiative is that Eurasian landmass, 540 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 4: and so the US, through its proxy in the Ukrainian government, 541 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 4: is like, well, we're gonna light a fire at this 542 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 4: end of it. We're not gonna let you like integrate 543 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 4: with Europe geographically. No, we're gonna like block you. And 544 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 4: there's norma of that here too, which is like, you know, oh, 545 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,479 Speaker 4: you're like making huge investments all over Latin America. You're 546 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,719 Speaker 4: buying more and more soybeans, more and more oil. I mean, 547 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 4: the Chinese get like between eight and thirteen percent of 548 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 4: their oil from Venezuela. Not a lot, but non significant. 549 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 4: It's like eighty percent of what Venezuela sells typically goes 550 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 4: to China. But you know, there's that which is like, Okay, 551 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 4: you know we're gonna we're gonna sabotage your investment plan. 552 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 4: You're going to try and incorporate everybody you know, and 553 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 4: we're going to like smash up your investment patterns. But 554 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 4: there's another aspect of it, which is that, you know, 555 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 4: the US just doesn't have the ability, short of atomic war, 556 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 4: to fight a conventional war against China in the Western Pacific. 557 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 4: You know, the the level of investment would have to 558 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 4: be so much higher in terms of the navy. I mean, 559 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 4: we don't have enough ships to move the fuel for 560 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 4: the planes out there. And so there's a realization like 561 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 4: o hey, we're we are rolling back, we are stepping 562 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 4: back from the Western Pacific, and that is a Chinese 563 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 4: sphere of influence. And so there's an element of this 564 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 4: which is like Trump like with a squid spraying ink. 565 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 4: You know, it's like creating this this drama of like 566 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 4: oh my god, yeah, this horrendous imperialist bully, and it's like, 567 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 4: that's all true, but it's also like a horrendous imperialist 568 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 4: bully operating at a much smaller scale than it used 569 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 4: to be able to you know, that global hegemony that's over. 570 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 6: But that's see. 571 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 7: That's very interesting because I was going to ask you 572 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 7: about how the Cold War dynamic between the Soviet Union 573 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 7: and the United States is. In some ways we're seeing 574 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 7: the rhymes of that in what you just laid out 575 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 7: with Belton Road in the United States and China and 576 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 7: the United States. And part of the reason I think 577 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 7: the right mis understands this, part of the reason that 578 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,959 Speaker 7: you were still dealing with pink tides in Latin America 579 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 7: is because there's a lot of anti American sentiment throughout 580 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 7: South and Central America that still exists. 581 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 6: I mean, there are a lot of people who like America. 582 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 7: Have favorable view stories America, but there's also a lot 583 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 7: of fuel for some of these leftist politicians and movements 584 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 7: that comes from doing things like reship change in Venezuela. 585 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 6: There's a Sandinista in charge of. 586 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 7: Nicaragua right now, and it's not guaranteed that because you 587 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 7: took control of Panama and felt like it was stable 588 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 7: for twenty years that you now have hemispheric dominion. 589 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 6: These things don't necessarily go together. 590 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, And there's also a lot of poverty and a 591 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 4: lot of inequality, right you know, you go like places 592 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 4: like in Rio or Sampallo, it's like people living in 593 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 4: shacks with dirt floors, seeing in the sky above them 594 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 4: private helicopters going to elite penthouses, and it's like, you know, 595 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 4: you live into those conditions. You're like, really, there's really 596 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 4: not enough money to get proper plumbing in this neighborhood. 597 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 4: I don't believe it, you know, And so that never 598 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 4: goes away. I mean you can decapitate and crush and discredit, 599 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 4: but then it's like, you know, another ten years in 600 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 4: the generation, people being like what why do we we 601 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 4: have oil? We sell enormous amounts of soybeans. Why don't 602 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 4: we have plumbing here? Why don't we have jobs? 603 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 6: You know, and trying to can exploit that. 604 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, and so what is the US get out of 605 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 5: blocking China? 606 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 3: Like I hate to put things in you know, black 607 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 3: and white and good and bad, but like one empire 608 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 3: is like building stuff and the their empires destroying stuff 609 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 3: and trying to block the other one from building stuff. 610 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 5: It's like what am I like, what are why? Like, 611 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 5: what are we doing? 612 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 4: I mean, I think that there is a fear in 613 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 4: the policy elite of loss of control. That it's you know, 614 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 4: you know, if China gets more and more control, who 615 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 4: knows what kind of rules could be imposed on the US. 616 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 4: And so there's and there's I mean, there's a at 617 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 4: the at the bottom of this, and this is something 618 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 4: that is certain kind of conservative, like the people at 619 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 4: American Affairs have been pretty good on. Like I mean, 620 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 4: at the bottom of this is a realization that was 621 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 4: like wow, what wein left would call like the neoliberal turn. 622 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 4: This was a disaster. This was insane to export our 623 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 4: industrial base abroad, an event which usually means eventually to China. 624 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 4: Mexico hunters first, but then to China. Uh was in retrospect, 625 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 4: totally nuts, you know, and be like, oh, we've got 626 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 4: all this money, you know. And and the economics for 627 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 4: I mean, I'm in an economics department, professor of economics, 628 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 4: even though my degree is sociology and geography, but I 629 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 4: teach political economy. But I mean, mainstream economics has a 630 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 4: lot to answer for this because they have been saying, yah, 631 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 4: saying all that matters are prices. All that matters is 632 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 4: money and prices, and as long as you have a 633 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 4: lot of money, then you can just buy what you need. 634 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,239 Speaker 4: And it's like, yeah, but what if you have an 635 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 4: adversary who has a different philosophy and doesn't care about 636 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 4: prices and says, well, you know what, We're gonna not 637 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 4: sell you rare earths regardless the price, because of geostrategic 638 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 4: concerns about our sovereignty and our sense of our society 639 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,719 Speaker 4: as being ancient and venerable and having been pushed around, 640 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 4: and we're in this long term project of rebuilding our 641 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 4: power and so yeah, yeah, you're right, we could make 642 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 4: more money selling you rare earth elements, but instead we're 643 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 4: going to embarther them and bring you to your heels. Yeah. 644 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 4: So there's a realization like, oh, actually it's not just 645 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 4: prices that matter. Places, things, skills, all this like process knowledge. 646 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 4: You can't turning out, Oh you can't actually send manufacturing 647 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 4: six thousand miles away and have the designers and engineers 648 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 4: in California, you know, be as good. And we don't 649 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 4: even quite know why. But it's like that you know, 650 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 4: the people who make the stuff and the people who 651 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 4: design stuff have to be in contact, they have to 652 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 4: see it. It's like, we don't even quite know why, 653 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 4: but innovation breaks down with this kind of globalization of 654 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 4: supply chains. There's a lot of ways in which the. 655 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 3: Financialization executives, like here in the US have no idea 656 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 3: how the products made and so therefore can't like come 657 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 3: up with ideas to make it better. Yeah, but the 658 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 3: people that would have those ideas are the ones that 659 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 3: are like. 660 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 4: Making it, yeah, and or or or it might come 661 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 4: from the engineers, but the engineers have to like be 662 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 4: around the people who are making it and then have 663 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 4: to have conversations with the people make it to be 664 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 4: like yeah, well if you did this a little different, 665 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 4: it's like oh, okay, and it can't all be done 666 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 4: through documents and zoom calls and this kind of stuff, right, 667 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 4: And then finance, So it's like the industrialization and financialization 668 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 4: realizing like, oh, that is a path towards sacrificing national sovereignty. Right. 669 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 4: And so there's left, right and center concerns about sovereignty, 670 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 4: and I think people are waking up and there's this 671 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 4: reactionary I think horrible element in the Trump administration which 672 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 4: is responding in terms of your question of why if 673 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 4: you're China to something very real, which is like wow, 674 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 4: like what did we just do? That was that was 675 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 4: totally insane, and it's like and reindustrialization, you know, that's 676 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,919 Speaker 4: never really been done. That would take a long time. 677 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 4: There are very very serious problems that the United States faces, 678 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 4: sort of regardless of your politics, regardless of your image 679 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 4: of what you want the distribution of wealth and rights 680 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 4: and prosperity to be in a country. It's like, it's 681 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,760 Speaker 4: sort of like, oh, we have sabotaged our own development 682 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 4: model here. 683 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 7: This is actually another interesting dynamic in the Trump administration 684 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 7: because I love your writing and Surveillance State and your 685 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 7: work on fbicia the Trump administration, and you've written about 686 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 7: this Trump world more broadly, people like Roger Stone have 687 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 7: recently been really. 688 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 6: Critical and skeptical of the FBI and CIA. 689 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 7: Which sort of engendered this deep skepticism of the quote 690 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 7: deep state, the surveillance state, and the intelligence community in 691 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 7: Trump world. They come in now and CIA is operating 692 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 7: in Venezuela on the ground Trump authorizes that they are 693 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 7: now using the FBI to infiltrate Antifa groups, which is 694 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 7: exactly what people were arguing against in principle, not even 695 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 7: just in action, but in principle that it was dangerous. 696 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:38,879 Speaker 6: I mean, the right sounded like the left when it. 697 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 7: Was talking about Feds and the Proud Boys and all 698 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 7: of that, And now they're repeating exactly what they were 699 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 7: taking issue with, and like the Whitmer kidnapping plot. So 700 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 7: I guess that's also something from the Cold War. That's 701 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 7: also something that came from the paranoia of the Cold 702 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 7: War in a lot of different respects. And I wonder 703 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 7: what it's what you're making of this weird moment where 704 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 7: you have a Trump adminished doing a Venezuela regime change 705 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 7: but not installing Maria Karina Machado, and then you have them, 706 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 7: you know, saying we're done with the deep state, but 707 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 7: then also infiltrating Antifa. 708 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 4: It's just very weird. It is weird, and I don't 709 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 4: fully understand it. But there's definitely not a confrontation with 710 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 4: the deep state. It seems like there's I mean, there's 711 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 4: a confrontation with the elements of the deep state, like 712 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 4: Komi who went after trumpet right, I mean, it almost 713 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 4: seems I have no proof of this, but it almost 714 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 4: seems like some sort of deal has been cut, you know, 715 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 4: implicitly or explicitly. Was just like you can get rich 716 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 4: with your crypto schemes, you know, basically pay to play 717 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 4: right out in the open. You know, you got this cryptocurrency. 718 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 4: People want to cut deals with your government or with 719 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 4: your private businesses. They buy your cryptos. Nothing illegal about that, 720 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 4: and then you never have a conversation of quid pro quo. 721 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 4: But it's like, oh, hey, Saudi's or whoever bought a 722 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 4: billion dollars worth of crypto, let's like sell them that, 723 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 4: you know, F thirty five or whatever. It's like, I mean, 724 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 4: so it's like the Trump's family can do that, and 725 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 4: they're like going to go after the people who went 726 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 4: after them. But like there's clearly not going to be 727 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 4: any new church committee here where not. Like I'm not 728 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 4: dumping documents. I mean, you know mk ultra files are 729 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 4: there are still redacted mk ultra files. I was just 730 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,359 Speaker 4: visiting a friend of mine who's a scholar down at 731 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 4: University of Virginia, and like we know there were one 732 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 4: hundred and thirty one hundred and forty nine projects in 733 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:30,720 Speaker 4: which the CIA and academics usually in universities, hospitals, jails, 734 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,919 Speaker 4: experimented with psychedelics, particularly LSD. But you know, we don't 735 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 4: know the people who were involved. If we had the 736 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,800 Speaker 4: name of all the scholars who collaborated with the CIA 737 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 4: and that, then there's a whole other type of historiography 738 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 4: that could happen, right, you know, I mean there's not 739 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,720 Speaker 4: even discussion about releasing that, but that stuff should happen, even. 740 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 7: Though there's theories that that's what happened in the Charlie 741 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 7: Kirk case and potentially in the Butler case. Like there 742 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 7: are people on the right we believe there's mk going right, 743 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 7: but to a Christian's point, like where is the momentum 744 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 7: to actually do something about that? 745 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 6: Structurally, there isn't. 746 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 4: Any There isn't So that's all, you know, I suppose, 747 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 4: not not surprising, but but but yeah, there isn't. There 748 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 4: isn't momentum. There also isn't there isn't much demand for it, 749 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,439 Speaker 4: you know, you know, like I mean, you know, Matt 750 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 4: Taibi was when Trump first comising, was saying like there 751 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 4: has to be massive disclosure, and then he dropped that 752 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 4: and there's no one there's no one really on the 753 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 4: right who's calling for this. I mean, there was a 754 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 4: moment where people saying, oh, now give us you know what, 755 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 4: you have to trust the public and you have to 756 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 4: just disclose the stuff. And it's like that hasn't happened. 757 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 4: And there's also there's no movement people saying, hey, where 758 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 4: are the documents. There's the Ebstein thing, right, but that's 759 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 4: only one of the dark spots in the history of 760 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,800 Speaker 4: the American intelligence agencies, which have not only been abusing 761 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 4: people in the Third World, they have been mucking around 762 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 4: in the US. And this is the thing, Like, you know, 763 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 4: a lot of good lefties don't like to say that 764 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:05,439 Speaker 4: because you don't. And it suggests that elites consider their 765 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 4: interests and coordinate. That would be conspiracy. Other people and 766 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 4: other classes do that all the time. But like elites 767 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 4: just you know, they don't do that. And that's about respectability. 768 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 4: You know. The professional class lives in fear of losing 769 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 4: their jobs. I get it, you know, yeah, but that's 770 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 4: what it's about. And people a lot of people know better. 771 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 4: But it's like, if you say that, you sound a 772 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 4: little weird. And it's like I'm sorry, it's the facts 773 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 4: that are insane, you know. And if you're really, really, 774 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 4: really concerned about not sounding at all weird and untoward, 775 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 4: then you can't talk about certain subjects because they are 776 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 4: so weird and untoward. 777 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 3: It almost feels like by design, like some of the 778 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 3: stuff they do get so crazy that you sound crazy 779 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 3: just talking about Yeah, absolutely, or even knowing about it. 780 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Marks, youiz, that's kind of a weirdo over there. 781 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 4: You kind of know, you know a lot about this subject, 782 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 4: and you know a lot about Jeffrey Epstein, Yeah, a 783 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 4: lot about Chevy, a lot about Wuhan. Yeah right, yeah, no, 784 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,240 Speaker 4: it's ridiculous. 785 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 5: So they can find your work in Compact where else. 786 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 4: I have a piece of it. American Affairs of Academic 787 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 4: gets into questions of de industrialization, reindustrialization. It's about it's 788 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,359 Speaker 4: a review essay. It's about the role of government in 789 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 4: the you know, in the moments of robust development within 790 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:29,320 Speaker 4: American capitalism. 791 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 5: We can But I didn't mean to cut you off. 792 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 5: You've got anything else, Well, I. 793 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 7: Was just going to ask you a question about the media, Like, 794 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 7: as a journalist who's chronicle a lot of this stuff. 795 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,439 Speaker 7: New media is this is a weird almost revolutionary time, 796 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,240 Speaker 7: Like we're here talking on this set and no corporate backing, 797 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 7: nothing like that. 798 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 6: Is that changing? Populism? Is that changing? 799 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 7: And are there any ways you're optimistic about that? I 800 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 7: mean we were talking about you know, like zines earlier. 801 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 7: There's something happening. 802 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that all this new media stuff, this podcast, this, 803 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 4: you know kind of you guys are doing here, I 804 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 4: think it's very good. It's very It does make me optimistic. 805 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 4: And you know, the legacy media, I'm not glad to 806 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 4: see it decline, but you know, it's it's full of 807 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:19,840 Speaker 4: flaws and outrageous distortions, you know. One for example, I 808 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:21,399 Speaker 4: was just reading the New York Times the other day 809 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 4: and it's like they described Aaron Siri, who is you 810 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 4: know when part I am a COVID skeptic, and you know, 811 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 4: I was not in favor of the lockdowns. I was 812 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,319 Speaker 4: not in favor of forcing this vaccine on people. And 813 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 4: so that constituted sort of like a break with the 814 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,279 Speaker 4: majority of the left for me and them, you know. 815 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,800 Speaker 4: And there's an article about Aaron Siri, who's an attorney 816 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 4: who has worked with RFK. He sued on behalf of 817 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 4: a family that had a child that they thought was 818 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 4: injured by one of seven varieties of polio vaccine, and 819 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 4: this polio vaccine had not gone through the proper safety 820 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 4: trials that the other six had, and what they wanted 821 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 4: was for this vaccine to be subject to those safety trials. 822 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 4: And the way the New York Times would it was like, 823 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,359 Speaker 4: he's opposed to the polio vaccine, and it's like, first 824 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 4: of all, there's no such thing as the polio vaccine. 825 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,359 Speaker 4: There's like two sort of basic categories, and then like 826 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 4: you know, six or seven other varieties, and it was 827 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,440 Speaker 4: the one most recent, most experimental that they were saying, 828 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 4: don't take it off the market. They're just saying, like, 829 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 4: make it past the safety tests that the other polio 830 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 4: vaccines have passed, or take it off the market. 831 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 1: You know. 832 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 4: It's just like the New York Times just lying like that. 833 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 6: So, yeah, but it's one of those things that you 834 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 6: sound crazy for talking about. 835 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, which is why I was why I brought 836 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 4: it up, because I wanted to normalize it for people, 837 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:43,759 Speaker 4: because I also don't really care if people think I 838 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 4: sound crazy on you. 839 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 3: And before we let you go as a New Yorker, 840 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,320 Speaker 3: I did want to get your take on Mam Donnie 841 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:54,359 Speaker 3: for a little bit. Yeah, because he's in the arc 842 00:43:54,800 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 3: of kind of Bernie Sanders AOC Mam Donnie like literally 843 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 3: kind of emerges out of their movement, but also seems 844 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:10,279 Speaker 3: to have reinvented it a little bit to move, you know, 845 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 3: to focus on New York. I think Andrew epstein Is, 846 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,319 Speaker 3: one of his aids, called the campaign a love letter 847 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:18,919 Speaker 3: to New York. 848 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 5: And you can tell like he really loves New. 849 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 3: York, but leading with the material concerns of the New 850 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 3: Yorkers making the city the place that it should be 851 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 3: great again. 852 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,799 Speaker 5: And while he got attacked. 853 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,359 Speaker 3: For all of these identity concerns, and he would speak 854 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 3: in every language he could think of to try to 855 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 3: reach voters where they were, he did not lead with 856 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,760 Speaker 3: the kind of language that became popular in the early 857 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 3: twenty twenties among the left. So what do you think 858 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 3: or his like what do you make of him so far? 859 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 3: Like what's he got going for and what are the 860 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:56,439 Speaker 3: what does he need to look out for? 861 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 4: Well, I'm very hopeful. I think he's he's good. I 862 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 4: voted for him. I hope that he can get stuff done. 863 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,719 Speaker 4: I mean, it's a huge job. There's limits to what 864 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,719 Speaker 4: the mayor can do. I worry about some of his 865 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,799 Speaker 4: early steps, Like there's a actually a bike lane, and 866 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 4: in my neighborhood in Greenpoint, there is you know, there 867 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 4: were these Uber funded there's a group called Transportation Alternatives 868 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 4: and these other kind of you know, and Transportation Alternatives 869 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 4: was got uber funding to basically, you know, make war 870 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,360 Speaker 4: on cars, which is fine. I mean, I'm in favorite 871 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 4: bike lanes. I mean, I voted for Mike Bloomberg when 872 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 4: he was a Republican because the Democrat was saying, I'm 873 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,320 Speaker 4: gonna close bike lanes, and I was like, my life 874 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 4: depends on these bike lanes, you know, So I'm for 875 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 4: bike lanes. But they have really kind of gone overboard 876 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,840 Speaker 4: to the point where like you know, on this main thoroughfare, 877 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 4: mcgainn's like an ambulance can't get around stuck traffic. And 878 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,479 Speaker 4: so you know, he immediately went there and he's gonna 879 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,279 Speaker 4: wants to revive this. And it's like some of that 880 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 4: stuff just because it's coded Green, so it's like it 881 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 4: needs a critical second look. I'm worried about the idea 882 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,160 Speaker 4: of the Department of Public Safety because it's it's not 883 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,000 Speaker 4: an all clear cut that like this is a mental 884 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 4: health crisis, and this is a criminal justice situation, you know, 885 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,319 Speaker 4: And there's a long history of the what criminologists call 886 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 4: net widening and mesh thinning, you know. I mean, this 887 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,720 Speaker 4: is this is presented as an alternative to the police, 888 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 4: could very easily become an additional form of police power 889 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:31,120 Speaker 4: that doesn't even incorporate some of the crucial protections like 890 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 4: your Fourth Amendment rights, you know. I mean, you know, 891 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 4: social workers show up and they're like, we're here to 892 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 4: help you. Tell us what's going on, and you say, 893 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 4: I just assaulted somebody. You know, if it was the cops, 894 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 4: they'd be like, hey, you know, you're you're acting crazy 895 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,320 Speaker 4: and we're taking you in. You have the right, you know. 896 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 4: I mean, that's pretty important, you know, And once you 897 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 4: come to your senses, maybe you'll be glad that you 898 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,720 Speaker 4: didn't like a mode like I just attacked these people randomly. 899 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,160 Speaker 4: It's like get some meds, like, you know, I mean, 900 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 4: And it's also like, I mean, the problems are so deep. 901 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 4: I'm not sure how this, like changing the thin end 902 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:08,839 Speaker 4: of the wedge can do that much. But I'm not 903 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:10,920 Speaker 4: saying I'm totally against it, But I would like to 904 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,680 Speaker 4: just introduce a note of skepticism because I feel that 905 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,240 Speaker 4: on the left it's just it's assumed the cops are problem. 906 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,200 Speaker 4: This is a solution. The fact of the matter is 907 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:24,080 Speaker 4: the NYPD has become much less violent than it used 908 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,239 Speaker 4: to be in the nineties. And interestingly, you know, I mean, 909 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,800 Speaker 4: I think it has a lot to do with the diversification, 910 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 4: the diversity of the force. And you know, I've written 911 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,239 Speaker 4: critically about, you know, woke politics and the obsession with that, 912 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,360 Speaker 4: but I just think the reality. I'm always for actual diversity, 913 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,280 Speaker 4: but the reality is that the force is less male 914 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 4: and white than it used to be. When I was 915 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:47,880 Speaker 4: in my twenties in New York City, it was like 916 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:49,680 Speaker 4: all these Irish and Italian kids. 917 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:51,839 Speaker 6: It's a bunch of guys named Ryan Grimm. 918 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, and like and they were afraid of 919 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,160 Speaker 4: the people and they look down them with contempt. There's 920 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:02,400 Speaker 4: tons of women and in New York they the diversity, 921 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,880 Speaker 4: the growing diversity of the force has coincided with a 922 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 4: declining use of force. Now it's been uptick over the 923 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:12,719 Speaker 4: last year. The NYPD needs to get much better about transparency, 924 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 4: but the idea that this is an out of control 925 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,839 Speaker 4: police force. I mean it's it's not the same force 926 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 4: it was in the nineties, and so so there's problems 927 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,759 Speaker 4: with that. And then it's like, I mean, if you 928 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,480 Speaker 4: have this, this Department of Community Safety, I mean, do 929 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:31,359 Speaker 4: we also have the funding for it? Mean, there needs 930 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,440 Speaker 4: to be like massive back of the house funding for 931 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,520 Speaker 4: the mentally ill and drug addicted people who are unhoused 932 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,960 Speaker 4: in New York. So, you know, I worry that this 933 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 4: could be a billion dollars job jobs program for you know, 934 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 4: DSA type social workers, and that in the end people 935 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:50,279 Speaker 4: are like, you know what, this is a racket. There's 936 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 4: a ripoff. What is this? You know? So you got 937 00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,400 Speaker 4: the social workers to take them in and then the 938 00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 4: same thing happens as with the cops. They're back out 939 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,239 Speaker 4: in a week. Like what's going on here? I don't 940 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,799 Speaker 4: have a solution, but my cousin, but I think he's 941 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,200 Speaker 4: like deep cleaning the subway. You know, he's got energy, 942 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:11,480 Speaker 4: he's he's smart. The idea of building, the idea of 943 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:16,480 Speaker 4: you know, trimming the regulations. I mean, there are some 944 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 4: pretty excessive regulations around building and housing codes in New 945 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,200 Speaker 4: York City. I mean, it's it's it could stand now 946 00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:24,040 Speaker 4: of course, like. 947 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:26,120 Speaker 6: That are often carveats for corporations. 948 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:27,640 Speaker 4: Yep, that's true. 949 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:29,879 Speaker 3: And speaking of things that the left doesn't want to touch, 950 00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,680 Speaker 3: my cousin in New York has worked in UH and 951 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:37,000 Speaker 3: works in the mental health departments of hospitals and currently 952 00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,799 Speaker 3: at Harlem Hospital, and and she worked at Rikers for 953 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 3: a while. And her the point that she's made is 954 00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:47,600 Speaker 3: that she's like, there's a there's a population of deeply 955 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:52,319 Speaker 3: and chronically mentally ill people in New York City that 956 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:57,040 Speaker 3: when when whatever they call it, the institutions, the asylums, 957 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:02,680 Speaker 3: institutionalization were shut down because of abuses within them, they 958 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,600 Speaker 3: no longer had a place to go. And so and 959 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,320 Speaker 3: what they'll do now is they're like, well, sometimes you 960 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,120 Speaker 3: have access to an apartment or like a room, but 961 00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,120 Speaker 3: they don't they don't want to really stay in that room, 962 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,600 Speaker 3: and or they sleep in that room, but then they're basically. 963 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,680 Speaker 5: Unhoused during the day around. 964 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:23,520 Speaker 3: The city and self medicating with whatever they're with, whatever 965 00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,960 Speaker 3: they're on. Her argument is like, you, this is a 966 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 3: finite number of people, like but they are ninety percent 967 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,719 Speaker 3: of these calls that the police are getting, they need 968 00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,759 Speaker 3: a place to go, and it has to be it 969 00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,279 Speaker 3: has to be serious, has to be well funded, it 970 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,200 Speaker 3: has to be you know, it's not locked in treatment. 971 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,759 Speaker 3: But and she's like, should be like an upstate New 972 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:47,480 Speaker 3: York or somewhere. 973 00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, I mean the whole the history of 974 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,759 Speaker 4: the institutionalization is beginning to get a second look. I 975 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,960 Speaker 4: mean that coincides, of course, with the beginning of austerity, 976 00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,880 Speaker 4: the budget crises, and you know, like the starts before 977 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:01,640 Speaker 4: comes in, but it's it's part of that whole, like 978 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,759 Speaker 4: you know, cutting the social welfare system, you know, and 979 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,800 Speaker 4: the left was correctly pointing out, like these places are horrible, 980 00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,560 Speaker 4: though sometimes even that was a little nuts. I rewatched 981 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:14,680 Speaker 4: Titty Cut Follies, this famous documentary about Bridgewater State Mental 982 00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,840 Speaker 4: Hospital in Massachusetts, and remember, you know, you're supposed to 983 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,759 Speaker 4: be like that's this place is horrible, and I watched it. 984 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,000 Speaker 4: I was like, I don't know, it doesn't it doesn't 985 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:27,640 Speaker 4: actually seem that bad. It's easy to make them look bad, yeah, 986 00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:29,560 Speaker 4: I mean, but just sort of like, you know, so 987 00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,280 Speaker 4: there's I mean, it's not that those places were without problems. 988 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,120 Speaker 4: They had problems, but there was a way in which 989 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:39,040 Speaker 4: the critique of the left was harnessed by the tax 990 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,719 Speaker 4: cutting austerity, right. It was like, yeah, that's great, You're right, 991 00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,920 Speaker 4: they're horrible and give that money to rich people in 992 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 4: tax break, you know, yeah, yeah, you know, speaking of austerity, 993 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,279 Speaker 4: I mean one thing I would be like throw into 994 00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:54,839 Speaker 4: the mix here for the left to think about, is, 995 00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,000 Speaker 4: you know, we oppose austerity because it's usually aimed at 996 00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,640 Speaker 4: workers and vulnerable people. But I think there could be 997 00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,800 Speaker 4: a place for left austerity. Speaking as a university professor, 998 00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:10,359 Speaker 4: the number of administrators in American universities has gone from 999 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:14,320 Speaker 4: an average of one administrator per three faculty in nineteen 1000 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,239 Speaker 4: eighty to one to one, and in many universities they 1001 00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,239 Speaker 4: are now more than fifty percent of the employees of 1002 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,920 Speaker 4: universities are administrators, and many of them are paid a 1003 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,600 Speaker 4: lot of money their job. Speaking from the front lines 1004 00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:31,680 Speaker 4: of the you know, email receiving teaching profession, it's like 1005 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,839 Speaker 4: their job seems to be to harass people. And it's 1006 00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,200 Speaker 4: very clear. Like I remember the great scholar of Frand 1007 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:43,719 Speaker 4: Fox Pivot said this to me. She is retired now, 1008 00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:45,400 Speaker 4: but she was at the Graduate Center. She said, yes, 1009 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,960 Speaker 4: you know, I'm there on thirty fourth Street, thirty fifth Street, 1010 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,120 Speaker 4: and I've been to the fifth floor and it's true Christian. 1011 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,400 Speaker 4: They have nothing to do. They literally so you know, 1012 00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,560 Speaker 4: no one ever talks about that. It's like, no, I 1013 00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,479 Speaker 4: think we could do some like very very very deep 1014 00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:05,280 Speaker 4: cuts to the administration of what is a great university system, 1015 00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,359 Speaker 4: the Cunite City University of New York, right work, I mean, 1016 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:10,799 Speaker 4: so the administrators won't like that. But you know what, 1017 00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:12,440 Speaker 4: I don't like all the pointless emails. 1018 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,480 Speaker 3: So you try to unsubscribe and it doesn't work, like. 1019 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,040 Speaker 4: Actually does a lot of it. You can just sort 1020 00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,160 Speaker 4: of ignore filter filter straight into the spam. 1021 00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:24,719 Speaker 6: Yeah, amazing. 1022 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:26,000 Speaker 5: Well they'll enjoy this. 1023 00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,279 Speaker 6: Interview, yes, yes, everyone will. 1024 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:30,319 Speaker 5: Well, thanks for coming by here. 1025 00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,320 Speaker 4: Thank you very much, very much. Appreciate it for inviting me. 1026 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:33,840 Speaker 4: Appreciate it. 1027 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,200 Speaker 6: It was worth it for that picture alone. Yes, that 1028 00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:37,280 Speaker 6: was great stuff, guys,