1 00:00:15,236 --> 00:00:30,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin. The rights of Asian Americans and Black Americans are 2 00:00:30,356 --> 00:00:36,516 Speaker 1: not mutually exclusive, but interconnected. White supremacy historically and still 3 00:00:36,556 --> 00:00:40,556 Speaker 1: today makes us believe that they're in opposition, but they're not. 4 00:00:41,196 --> 00:00:44,276 Speaker 1: This is why Black and Asian Americans really, really, really 5 00:00:44,356 --> 00:00:47,716 Speaker 1: need each other and must be there together for the struggle. 6 00:00:55,636 --> 00:00:59,676 Speaker 1: The image is fixed in my mind. Malcolm X lays 7 00:00:59,796 --> 00:01:03,276 Speaker 1: unconscious on the ground with his shirt opened and soaked 8 00:01:03,436 --> 00:01:07,716 Speaker 1: in blood. His arms are spread less people give him 9 00:01:07,716 --> 00:01:13,436 Speaker 1: medical attention alms autobamb Ballroom on February twenty first, nineteen 10 00:01:13,516 --> 00:01:18,636 Speaker 1: sixty five. The photograph only captures the faces of two people, 11 00:01:19,396 --> 00:01:24,476 Speaker 1: Malcolm X and a bespectacled Japanese American woman who cradles 12 00:01:24,596 --> 00:01:29,196 Speaker 1: his head in her hands. When I first saw this 13 00:01:29,236 --> 00:01:33,436 Speaker 1: photo as a twenty three year old graduate student, I wondered, 14 00:01:33,836 --> 00:01:38,076 Speaker 1: who is this Asian woman cradling the assassinated Malcolm X. 15 00:01:39,156 --> 00:01:43,316 Speaker 1: I had to find out. I learned her name was 16 00:01:43,396 --> 00:01:48,156 Speaker 1: Yuri Kochiyama, and the more I learned about Kochiyama, the 17 00:01:48,196 --> 00:01:52,276 Speaker 1: more I learned about other Asian American activists who helped 18 00:01:52,436 --> 00:01:56,636 Speaker 1: extend the heartbeat of anti racism beyond the lifespan of 19 00:01:56,716 --> 00:02:10,996 Speaker 1: any individual, even a giant like Malcolm X. I'm ibramax Kendy, 20 00:02:11,116 --> 00:02:16,876 Speaker 1: and this is be anti racist. Uri Korchayama grew up 21 00:02:16,876 --> 00:02:21,956 Speaker 1: in San Pedro, California. She endured anti Asian racism as 22 00:02:21,956 --> 00:02:26,996 Speaker 1: a nissa, a child of Japanese immigrants. During World War Two, 23 00:02:27,516 --> 00:02:30,516 Speaker 1: Kochiyama and her family were among the one hundred and 24 00:02:30,556 --> 00:02:35,596 Speaker 1: twelve thousand Japanese Americans incarcerated in internment camps run by 25 00:02:35,636 --> 00:02:40,356 Speaker 1: the federal government on the West Coast. The newspaper headlines 26 00:02:40,396 --> 00:02:46,116 Speaker 1: were get the depths out. And not just the newspaper headlines, 27 00:02:46,196 --> 00:02:49,476 Speaker 1: but there were signs all over and get the Depts out, 28 00:02:49,596 --> 00:02:53,916 Speaker 1: Get the depths out. She was painfully aware of how 29 00:02:53,956 --> 00:02:56,556 Speaker 1: it felt to be seen as a stranger and a 30 00:02:56,636 --> 00:03:00,116 Speaker 1: threat in your own home. I tell you the Japanese 31 00:03:00,156 --> 00:03:04,516 Speaker 1: Americans and even the Essay's first generation who could not 32 00:03:04,716 --> 00:03:11,516 Speaker 1: become Americans. They were so America, and yet the hysteria, 33 00:03:11,916 --> 00:03:17,596 Speaker 1: the suspicion of Japanese people was very, very strong. In 34 00:03:17,716 --> 00:03:22,396 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty Kocheyama moved to Harlem, where she worked with 35 00:03:22,516 --> 00:03:26,876 Speaker 1: Black Asian and Latinex organizers to advance civil and human rights. 36 00:03:27,756 --> 00:03:31,436 Speaker 1: After being arrested at a protest. In nineteen sixty three, 37 00:03:31,836 --> 00:03:37,756 Speaker 1: Kochiyama met Malcolm X. They shared a birthday May nineteenth, 38 00:03:38,156 --> 00:03:41,916 Speaker 1: and developed a friendship that would last the rest of 39 00:03:41,956 --> 00:03:46,916 Speaker 1: his life. One night in nineteen sixty four, Malcolm X 40 00:03:46,956 --> 00:03:50,396 Speaker 1: spoke to a group of survivors of the Hiroshima atomic 41 00:03:50,436 --> 00:03:56,196 Speaker 1: bomb in Kochiyama's apartment. You were bombed, he said, and 42 00:03:56,396 --> 00:04:00,916 Speaker 1: have physical scars. We too have been bombed, and you 43 00:04:00,956 --> 00:04:04,196 Speaker 1: saw some of the scars in our neighborhood. We are 44 00:04:04,276 --> 00:04:08,076 Speaker 1: constantly hit by the bombs of racism, which are just 45 00:04:08,316 --> 00:04:14,316 Speaker 1: as devastated. Half a century later, the bombs of anti 46 00:04:14,396 --> 00:04:18,876 Speaker 1: black and anti Asian racism continue to detonate. While Black 47 00:04:18,916 --> 00:04:23,236 Speaker 1: Americans died at disproportionate rates from COVID nineteen and at 48 00:04:23,276 --> 00:04:27,516 Speaker 1: the hands of police, hate crimes against Asian Americans jumped 49 00:04:27,676 --> 00:04:32,436 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty percent in twenty twenty. Racist references 50 00:04:32,516 --> 00:04:36,076 Speaker 1: to COVID nineteen as the China virus or Kung fluid 51 00:04:36,676 --> 00:04:41,636 Speaker 1: inflamed anti Asian violence, including the tragic murder of six 52 00:04:41,716 --> 00:04:45,676 Speaker 1: Asian women who worked at massage parlors in the Atlanta 53 00:04:45,756 --> 00:04:50,916 Speaker 1: metro region, and yet Asian Americans are considered by racist 54 00:04:50,956 --> 00:04:56,036 Speaker 1: Americans to be the model minority. By this purview, Asian 55 00:04:56,076 --> 00:05:00,516 Speaker 1: Americans are assimilated wealthy, high achieving, and law abiding citizens, 56 00:05:01,036 --> 00:05:06,156 Speaker 1: not like the problem minority black people. But this framing 57 00:05:06,316 --> 00:05:11,916 Speaker 1: veils many Asian Americans and obscure American history. It veils 58 00:05:11,956 --> 00:05:17,276 Speaker 1: the racist and classist immigration laws that prioritize highly educated 59 00:05:17,356 --> 00:05:21,956 Speaker 1: people from East and South Asian countries. It veils all 60 00:05:21,996 --> 00:05:25,716 Speaker 1: the poor and working class Asian Americans, and the fact 61 00:05:25,716 --> 00:05:29,916 Speaker 1: that Asian Americans experience the highest amount of income inequality 62 00:05:29,956 --> 00:05:33,676 Speaker 1: of any racial group in the United States. It veils 63 00:05:33,756 --> 00:05:38,036 Speaker 1: the anti Asian attacks before the pandemic. It veils all 64 00:05:38,076 --> 00:05:42,676 Speaker 1: the connections between the black and Asian experiences inside and 65 00:05:42,756 --> 00:05:48,356 Speaker 1: outside of the United States, connections that bonded Uri Kochiyama 66 00:05:48,396 --> 00:05:54,516 Speaker 1: and Malcolm x. Uri Kochiyama and her husband Bill helped 67 00:05:54,516 --> 00:05:59,516 Speaker 1: to secure the US government's formal apology and reparations to 68 00:05:59,676 --> 00:06:03,836 Speaker 1: Japanese American survivors of the Interminent Camps through the Civil 69 00:06:03,836 --> 00:06:08,636 Speaker 1: Liberties Act of nineteen eighty eight. Reparations for Japanese Americans 70 00:06:09,116 --> 00:06:13,476 Speaker 1: fired activists to continue the reparations fight for Black Americans. 71 00:06:14,996 --> 00:06:19,836 Speaker 1: Uri Kochiyama passed away in twenty fourteen, but her life 72 00:06:19,876 --> 00:06:23,876 Speaker 1: gave me a window into Asian anti racist activists and 73 00:06:23,996 --> 00:06:28,556 Speaker 1: their long standing bond with activists of other racists. Asian 74 00:06:28,636 --> 00:06:32,436 Speaker 1: and Black activists leading the Yellow Power and Black Power 75 00:06:32,556 --> 00:06:37,876 Speaker 1: movements exchanged ideas and stories about their own communities experiences 76 00:06:37,916 --> 00:06:43,596 Speaker 1: of racism. Richard Aoki, a Japanese American who endured incarceration 77 00:06:43,676 --> 00:06:46,956 Speaker 1: in an internment camp, was a founding member of the 78 00:06:46,996 --> 00:06:52,436 Speaker 1: Black Panther Party. Kocheyama and Malcolm X understood, we are 79 00:06:52,476 --> 00:06:56,276 Speaker 1: all being bombed by the structures of racism. This isn't 80 00:06:56,276 --> 00:06:59,796 Speaker 1: a fight just for Asian Americans, or Black Americans or 81 00:06:59,836 --> 00:07:03,516 Speaker 1: any other group of Americans. This is a fight for 82 00:07:03,676 --> 00:07:12,116 Speaker 1: us all. This is a fight for humanity. Welcome to 83 00:07:12,156 --> 00:07:16,916 Speaker 1: be Anti Racist in Action podcasts, where we discuss how 84 00:07:16,956 --> 00:07:21,716 Speaker 1: to diagnose, dismantle, and abolish racism, how to save humanity 85 00:07:21,956 --> 00:07:26,036 Speaker 1: from the divisiveness of racist ideas and the destructiveness of 86 00:07:26,156 --> 00:07:30,716 Speaker 1: racist power and policy, How to free humanity through the 87 00:07:30,836 --> 00:07:34,836 Speaker 1: unity of anti racist ideas and the constructiveness of anti 88 00:07:34,956 --> 00:07:40,436 Speaker 1: racist power and policy. On Be Anti Racist, we discuss 89 00:07:40,436 --> 00:07:43,636 Speaker 1: how to make the impossible possible and how to bring 90 00:07:43,676 --> 00:07:47,796 Speaker 1: into being what modern humans have never known a just 91 00:07:48,676 --> 00:08:07,276 Speaker 1: inequitable world. You ready, let's roll. I'd see some Asian 92 00:08:07,316 --> 00:08:10,716 Speaker 1: Americans who call out other Asian Americans as you're being 93 00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:13,156 Speaker 1: anti black, Stop being so anti black, And I'm like, 94 00:08:13,836 --> 00:08:16,196 Speaker 1: I don't think scolding is going to work. I think 95 00:08:16,196 --> 00:08:20,116 Speaker 1: you need to first talk about reconciling with what you 96 00:08:20,316 --> 00:08:25,156 Speaker 1: went through, that you have been taught to deny and suppress, 97 00:08:25,476 --> 00:08:28,756 Speaker 1: and open that up. And only through opening that up, 98 00:08:28,756 --> 00:08:32,316 Speaker 1: opening up your vulnerability, will you really be able to 99 00:08:32,356 --> 00:08:38,076 Speaker 1: fight for a more equitable country. Kathy Park Hong is 100 00:08:38,076 --> 00:08:42,436 Speaker 1: a Korean American poet, writer, professor, and the poetry editor 101 00:08:42,596 --> 00:08:47,116 Speaker 1: at The New Republic. Her recent book, Minor Feelings in 102 00:08:47,236 --> 00:08:52,836 Speaker 1: Asian American Reckoning reveals the unique duality of hyper invisibility 103 00:08:52,956 --> 00:08:58,156 Speaker 1: and hyper visibility experienced by Asian Americans. Minor Feelings was 104 00:08:58,196 --> 00:09:01,756 Speaker 1: a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and won the National 105 00:09:01,796 --> 00:09:06,436 Speaker 1: Book Critics Circle Award for Autobiography. I recently spoke with 106 00:09:06,556 --> 00:09:10,876 Speaker 1: Hong about the uniquely Asian American experience of living at 107 00:09:10,916 --> 00:09:15,276 Speaker 1: the intersection of racist stabilification and the stereotype of the 108 00:09:15,316 --> 00:09:20,116 Speaker 1: model minority. I've been looking forward to talking to you. 109 00:09:20,396 --> 00:09:23,716 Speaker 1: I think I can speak hopefully for many people who 110 00:09:23,756 --> 00:09:27,116 Speaker 1: have had the chance to read your latest book. Not 111 00:09:27,236 --> 00:09:29,676 Speaker 1: only was I blown away with the way in which 112 00:09:29,716 --> 00:09:33,516 Speaker 1: you integrated your personal story with some of these larger 113 00:09:34,036 --> 00:09:38,996 Speaker 1: ideas and even histories, but to me how critically important 114 00:09:39,076 --> 00:09:42,556 Speaker 1: this book is for the here and the now. Specifically, 115 00:09:42,556 --> 00:09:47,756 Speaker 1: over the last year, there has been, for better off, 116 00:09:47,756 --> 00:09:52,796 Speaker 1: for worse, more and more mainstream conversation around the Asian 117 00:09:52,836 --> 00:09:57,876 Speaker 1: American experience. How hard is it to talk about the 118 00:09:57,956 --> 00:10:02,836 Speaker 1: Asian American experience since the term even Asian Americans encompasses 119 00:10:03,316 --> 00:10:08,996 Speaker 1: so many groups. Yeah, it's a conversation that always starts 120 00:10:09,156 --> 00:10:16,236 Speaker 1: off with like ten minutes of qualifications. You know, I'm 121 00:10:16,316 --> 00:10:21,036 Speaker 1: only speaking from my experience. I'm just a tiny sliver 122 00:10:21,156 --> 00:10:24,916 Speaker 1: of a demographic. Asia is a continent after all, you know, 123 00:10:25,076 --> 00:10:30,356 Speaker 1: almost as a way of safeguarding inevitable rebuttals where rightly 124 00:10:30,556 --> 00:10:33,396 Speaker 1: Asian Americans are like, well, you're not representing my experience 125 00:10:33,436 --> 00:10:35,556 Speaker 1: at you? Oh, how could you not be representing my experience? 126 00:10:35,556 --> 00:10:39,356 Speaker 1: And I think part of that defensiveness, this is how 127 00:10:39,436 --> 00:10:43,196 Speaker 1: I feel, too, is because there's been such a dearth 128 00:10:43,276 --> 00:10:48,356 Speaker 1: of public exposure of all the many different kinds of 129 00:10:49,156 --> 00:10:53,876 Speaker 1: Asian American experiences, so that when there's one filmmaker, one 130 00:10:53,916 --> 00:10:59,716 Speaker 1: fiction writer, novelist that breaks out, there's both celebration and excitement, 131 00:10:59,796 --> 00:11:04,196 Speaker 1: but there's also defensiveness because inevitably, as it happens to 132 00:11:04,356 --> 00:11:08,916 Speaker 1: most minorities, American mainstream culture is likely to be like, oh, 133 00:11:09,116 --> 00:11:13,116 Speaker 1: it's a singular Asian American experience. So I've been very 134 00:11:13,356 --> 00:11:17,956 Speaker 1: gratified and really honored and humbled is really the most 135 00:11:17,996 --> 00:11:22,236 Speaker 1: apt term for how people have responded to my book. 136 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:26,236 Speaker 1: But when people say, as they have a couple interviewers 137 00:11:26,236 --> 00:11:29,196 Speaker 1: said in the past that the book is representative or 138 00:11:29,196 --> 00:11:32,476 Speaker 1: it's like I'm a spokesperson or something, you know, I 139 00:11:32,476 --> 00:11:35,676 Speaker 1: want to run the other direction. But I do think 140 00:11:35,756 --> 00:11:39,956 Speaker 1: that one bright side to this very very very dark 141 00:11:40,076 --> 00:11:45,236 Speaker 1: year is that I have noticed among Asian Americans they're 142 00:11:45,596 --> 00:11:53,036 Speaker 1: much more emboldened, daring, much more radicalized. And I just 143 00:11:53,076 --> 00:11:57,316 Speaker 1: think there'll be a lot more conversation about Asian Americans, 144 00:11:57,476 --> 00:12:01,556 Speaker 1: all the different ways they fit into the racial history 145 00:12:01,596 --> 00:12:05,396 Speaker 1: of this country and the racialized present, and also the 146 00:12:05,516 --> 00:12:10,196 Speaker 1: kinds of stories and artworks that they're gonna produced. Not 147 00:12:10,236 --> 00:12:14,276 Speaker 1: that it hasn't been happening, but I hope there's even more. Yeah, certainly, 148 00:12:14,276 --> 00:12:17,796 Speaker 1: And I can relate in this sense of Black Americans 149 00:12:17,836 --> 00:12:22,916 Speaker 1: in this country. I have often been radicalized or a 150 00:12:22,956 --> 00:12:29,556 Speaker 1: certain sense of solidarity has emerged through years of terror. Yeah. 151 00:12:29,636 --> 00:12:33,836 Speaker 1: And obviously the Asian American community has been subjected to 152 00:12:33,876 --> 00:12:37,236 Speaker 1: all forms of terror and violence. And so you're saying 153 00:12:37,276 --> 00:12:41,756 Speaker 1: you're seeing somewhat of the same phenomenon. Yeah, I mean, 154 00:12:42,316 --> 00:12:48,396 Speaker 1: in writing Minor Feelings, I was definitely inspired by the 155 00:12:48,436 --> 00:12:54,436 Speaker 1: black radical tradition, so many of the thinkers, Baldwin, Moten, Morrison. 156 00:12:54,796 --> 00:12:58,796 Speaker 1: It's just a long, long tradition. What I'm also inspired 157 00:12:58,836 --> 00:13:02,836 Speaker 1: by is how African Americans have used those years of 158 00:13:03,036 --> 00:13:09,756 Speaker 1: white supremacists or racial capitalist terror and really turned their 159 00:13:09,836 --> 00:13:15,836 Speaker 1: race into an oppositional identity. Black is an oppositional identity, 160 00:13:15,876 --> 00:13:18,916 Speaker 1: and I think that that is what I'm trying to 161 00:13:19,636 --> 00:13:23,316 Speaker 1: impart when I do talk about the Asian American identity. 162 00:13:23,356 --> 00:13:28,156 Speaker 1: To some Asians who feel that term is very abstract 163 00:13:28,276 --> 00:13:30,876 Speaker 1: or constraining, I'm like, you don't have to think of 164 00:13:30,916 --> 00:13:34,956 Speaker 1: it as a label, but more as something that is 165 00:13:35,076 --> 00:13:40,916 Speaker 1: oppositional or aspirational, something that's more about coalition building. One 166 00:13:40,916 --> 00:13:43,596 Speaker 1: of the reasons I really wanted to talk to you, Kathius, 167 00:13:43,756 --> 00:13:48,676 Speaker 1: because for the better part of roughly six to nine months, 168 00:13:49,076 --> 00:13:54,916 Speaker 1: there was some conversation about anti Asian violence, specifically as 169 00:13:54,916 --> 00:13:57,916 Speaker 1: a result of the pandemic and the slurs that emerged 170 00:13:58,036 --> 00:14:04,156 Speaker 1: around it. In recent months, specifically with the attack on 171 00:14:04,476 --> 00:14:08,756 Speaker 1: critical race theory, Asian Americans have been spoke about in 172 00:14:08,796 --> 00:14:12,796 Speaker 1: a different from a type of way, primarily coming from conservatives, 173 00:14:13,116 --> 00:14:17,636 Speaker 1: some Asian Americans, but mainly white conservatives, who are seeing 174 00:14:17,716 --> 00:14:20,836 Speaker 1: that critical race theory is anti Asian Asian Americans yet 175 00:14:20,876 --> 00:14:24,636 Speaker 1: again being used as a wedge. This is why I 176 00:14:24,676 --> 00:14:28,476 Speaker 1: find media so frustrating, because I know that the majority 177 00:14:28,516 --> 00:14:35,076 Speaker 1: of Asian Americans are still fighting for racial justice in 178 00:14:35,196 --> 00:14:40,876 Speaker 1: solidarity with Black Americans and digitous Americans and Latin X Americans. 179 00:14:41,556 --> 00:14:44,716 Speaker 1: Quite frankly, I have not been following the critical race 180 00:14:44,796 --> 00:14:48,796 Speaker 1: theory debate as closely as I could because I find 181 00:14:49,036 --> 00:14:54,116 Speaker 1: the controversy so manufactured by conservatives and so stupid and 182 00:14:54,196 --> 00:14:58,596 Speaker 1: maddening and absurd. It's really surreal. It's like arguing with 183 00:14:58,796 --> 00:15:02,556 Speaker 1: Q and on conspiracy theorists. Let me just say that 184 00:15:03,876 --> 00:15:07,436 Speaker 1: white people are enraged about is that many of us 185 00:15:07,516 --> 00:15:12,276 Speaker 1: are finally trying to understand and read about an American 186 00:15:12,476 --> 00:15:18,956 Speaker 1: history and culture that hasn't been censored, whitewashed, and sanitized 187 00:15:19,076 --> 00:15:23,036 Speaker 1: by the victors of history, a history where whites and 188 00:15:23,196 --> 00:15:29,516 Speaker 1: men have to be held accountable for past injuries injustices, 189 00:15:29,636 --> 00:15:33,476 Speaker 1: and they cannot stand that. To say critical race theory 190 00:15:34,076 --> 00:15:39,036 Speaker 1: is anti Asian is to not understand that this history 191 00:15:39,116 --> 00:15:44,436 Speaker 1: includes Asians. When I was growing up, the history that 192 00:15:44,516 --> 00:15:48,756 Speaker 1: I learned a lot of it was not true, the 193 00:15:48,916 --> 00:15:53,036 Speaker 1: stories about indigenous people who are happy to be civilized 194 00:15:53,076 --> 00:15:57,916 Speaker 1: by Spanish missionaries. It was also a history that had 195 00:15:57,956 --> 00:16:00,876 Speaker 1: nothing to do with me or how I got here. 196 00:16:01,396 --> 00:16:04,956 Speaker 1: For instance, I did read a little bit about the 197 00:16:05,076 --> 00:16:08,636 Speaker 1: Korean War, but it was about the heroic fight for 198 00:16:08,716 --> 00:16:14,476 Speaker 1: democracy won by Americans and for which Koreans were eternally grateful, 199 00:16:15,116 --> 00:16:19,356 Speaker 1: the self congratulatory perspective of the white powers that be, 200 00:16:20,076 --> 00:16:23,676 Speaker 1: which had nothing from a Korean perspective. It wasn't until 201 00:16:23,796 --> 00:16:26,876 Speaker 1: much later that I learned that four million Koreans were 202 00:16:26,956 --> 00:16:31,196 Speaker 1: killed during the war. Critical race theory, I don't even 203 00:16:31,236 --> 00:16:32,956 Speaker 1: like to call it that. I want to call it 204 00:16:33,476 --> 00:16:38,876 Speaker 1: American history and literature. The uncensored and unabridged version means 205 00:16:38,956 --> 00:16:45,916 Speaker 1: that Americans will also understand more Asian Americans. And when 206 00:16:45,956 --> 00:16:49,276 Speaker 1: I was reading that Asian Americans are emerging as a 207 00:16:49,316 --> 00:16:53,396 Speaker 1: strong voice against critical race theory, that's also bullshit. It's wrong. 208 00:16:53,556 --> 00:16:58,836 Speaker 1: There's so many activists of Asian Americans who don't prescribe 209 00:16:58,876 --> 00:17:02,036 Speaker 1: to these conservative talking points. It's similar to saying that 210 00:17:02,076 --> 00:17:06,276 Speaker 1: Asians are against affirmative action, when in fact, seventy percent 211 00:17:06,396 --> 00:17:11,796 Speaker 1: of Asian support affirmative action. Whoever is making these claims 212 00:17:12,076 --> 00:17:15,076 Speaker 1: is not listening to what Asian Americans have been saying 213 00:17:15,116 --> 00:17:18,676 Speaker 1: throughout this whole year. They haven't been listening to the 214 00:17:18,756 --> 00:17:23,796 Speaker 1: outpouring of anger and grief and this kind of mantra 215 00:17:24,396 --> 00:17:27,876 Speaker 1: that no one is listening to us. We're invisible. We 216 00:17:27,956 --> 00:17:32,356 Speaker 1: are racial minority who have been oppressed or victimized for 217 00:17:32,476 --> 00:17:36,516 Speaker 1: this many reasons. The Asians who say that critical race 218 00:17:36,596 --> 00:17:41,916 Speaker 1: serious anti Asian are the Asians who need critical race 219 00:17:41,956 --> 00:17:46,836 Speaker 1: theory the most, because they don't understand that they're being 220 00:17:47,116 --> 00:17:52,876 Speaker 1: used and instrumentalized by tone deaf white conservatives to delegitimize 221 00:17:53,196 --> 00:17:57,996 Speaker 1: black struggle and how this model minority myth has been 222 00:17:58,076 --> 00:18:02,756 Speaker 1: used as a cudgel against civil rights movement and the 223 00:18:02,876 --> 00:18:08,516 Speaker 1: Black struggle for equality. By denying that we learn about race, 224 00:18:08,716 --> 00:18:13,356 Speaker 1: which means learning about the real truth about Asian American histories, 225 00:18:13,876 --> 00:18:18,596 Speaker 1: these Asians are basically denying their children to learn about themselves. 226 00:18:19,836 --> 00:18:24,196 Speaker 1: Asian Americans were part of the formation of critical race 227 00:18:24,236 --> 00:18:28,436 Speaker 1: theory from the beginning. Marie Matsuda wrote a great response 228 00:18:28,476 --> 00:18:30,676 Speaker 1: to this. She was one of the activists who was 229 00:18:30,796 --> 00:18:34,356 Speaker 1: part of the Third World Liberation Front from the Bay 230 00:18:34,396 --> 00:18:39,196 Speaker 1: Area in nineteen sixty eight that demanded ethnic studies. Marty 231 00:18:39,236 --> 00:18:42,116 Speaker 1: Matsuda had to come out and be like, Uh, what 232 00:18:42,196 --> 00:18:46,276 Speaker 1: are you talking about. Asians were always part of the 233 00:18:46,396 --> 00:18:51,836 Speaker 1: struggle for schools to not whitewash Asian Americans. You talk 234 00:18:51,916 --> 00:18:55,596 Speaker 1: in your book about the way in which Asian Americans 235 00:18:55,636 --> 00:19:00,076 Speaker 1: are used to keep black people down. So I've seen 236 00:19:00,156 --> 00:19:04,076 Speaker 1: this shift in which the predominant conversation was that Asian 237 00:19:04,076 --> 00:19:09,436 Speaker 1: Americans were suffering violence, and then seemingly, almost over night, 238 00:19:09,916 --> 00:19:14,276 Speaker 1: that was lost to Oh, let's now continue to project 239 00:19:14,316 --> 00:19:18,756 Speaker 1: Asian Americans as the model minority. Suddenly Asian Americans demonstrate 240 00:19:18,836 --> 00:19:23,596 Speaker 1: racism doesn't exist. It's almost like Asian Americans were abstracted 241 00:19:23,716 --> 00:19:27,196 Speaker 1: as this rhetorical cudgel that they bring out of their 242 00:19:27,276 --> 00:19:33,236 Speaker 1: closet whenever they feel that Black Americans are being too 243 00:19:33,916 --> 00:19:39,196 Speaker 1: quote unquote uppity or overly outraged, and then they say, okay, 244 00:19:39,196 --> 00:19:42,116 Speaker 1: well look at these Asian Americans, which is like, we 245 00:19:42,156 --> 00:19:45,596 Speaker 1: don't actually exist. It's complete abstraction, and it's real pity 246 00:19:46,476 --> 00:19:51,436 Speaker 1: that that's the case. These conservatives. Their idea of Asian 247 00:19:51,636 --> 00:19:56,676 Speaker 1: is so offensively narrow. They're not only perpetuating the nefarious 248 00:19:56,676 --> 00:20:00,316 Speaker 1: model minority myth, they're also ignoring the fact that Asian 249 00:20:00,316 --> 00:20:07,036 Speaker 1: Americans have the biggest wealth gap. This whole brouhaha about 250 00:20:07,036 --> 00:20:11,796 Speaker 1: how Asians are successful, they will fit racial prototype. The 251 00:20:11,796 --> 00:20:15,156 Speaker 1: reason for that is because after nineteen sixty five, there 252 00:20:15,276 --> 00:20:18,156 Speaker 1: was a quota where the Asians who were allowed in 253 00:20:18,236 --> 00:20:22,156 Speaker 1: were professional engineers and doctors. So of course their children 254 00:20:22,196 --> 00:20:25,316 Speaker 1: will be successful. It doesn't have to do with meritocracy. 255 00:20:25,716 --> 00:20:29,596 Speaker 1: Compare that to say, Cambodians and Boutanies who came here 256 00:20:29,596 --> 00:20:32,716 Speaker 1: as refugees, and many of them are still struggling and 257 00:20:32,796 --> 00:20:37,756 Speaker 1: they need affirmative action and other government funded programs we 258 00:20:37,876 --> 00:20:44,596 Speaker 1: all do. What's striking to me is the invisibility that 259 00:20:44,676 --> 00:20:48,756 Speaker 1: you reference in terms of Asian Americans also extends to 260 00:20:48,836 --> 00:20:52,996 Speaker 1: the invisibility against anti Asian racism, and then that even 261 00:20:53,796 --> 00:20:57,236 Speaker 1: extends to the invisibility of Asian Americans who are fighting 262 00:20:57,276 --> 00:21:01,876 Speaker 1: against racism. I was delighted in your book to learn 263 00:21:01,956 --> 00:21:06,196 Speaker 1: even more about Uri Kochiyama, who is one of my heroes, 264 00:21:06,756 --> 00:21:08,396 Speaker 1: and so if you could speak a little bit about 265 00:21:08,476 --> 00:21:12,396 Speaker 1: her old history, her story, Oh yeah, of course. Uri 266 00:21:12,556 --> 00:21:19,796 Speaker 1: Kuchiyama is Japanese American activist. She was second generation born 267 00:21:19,836 --> 00:21:23,396 Speaker 1: in California, and for the earlier part of her life 268 00:21:23,436 --> 00:21:27,676 Speaker 1: she was very a political, very Christian, had mostly white 269 00:21:27,716 --> 00:21:30,716 Speaker 1: friends and all of that, and then she was sent 270 00:21:30,876 --> 00:21:35,436 Speaker 1: to the internment camps with her family. People have some 271 00:21:35,596 --> 00:21:39,036 Speaker 1: grasp of the internment camps in the US, but what 272 00:21:39,116 --> 00:21:43,436 Speaker 1: they don't understand was like the deep discrimination against Japanese 273 00:21:43,436 --> 00:21:49,116 Speaker 1: Americans post internment camps. So once the Japanese Americans left, 274 00:21:49,396 --> 00:21:53,396 Speaker 1: they were dispersed across the country so they wouldn't amass 275 00:21:53,636 --> 00:21:58,996 Speaker 1: into an angry collective. They were also discriminated from getting 276 00:21:59,076 --> 00:22:00,996 Speaker 1: jobs and so forth. So she had a hard time 277 00:22:01,036 --> 00:22:04,516 Speaker 1: finding jobs around where she lived, so she moved to 278 00:22:04,716 --> 00:22:08,316 Speaker 1: New York. She ended up working in Harlem in this restaurant, 279 00:22:08,476 --> 00:22:12,956 Speaker 1: and her fellow wait staff were black, and she became 280 00:22:12,996 --> 00:22:15,956 Speaker 1: friends with them, and it was the first time she 281 00:22:16,156 --> 00:22:20,316 Speaker 1: really learned about America's racist past, and she learned about 282 00:22:20,636 --> 00:22:23,836 Speaker 1: the history of slavery and Jim Crow and all of that, 283 00:22:23,956 --> 00:22:29,436 Speaker 1: and she also realized the great crime that America committed 284 00:22:29,476 --> 00:22:33,996 Speaker 1: against her and other Japanese Americans. So she became radicalized 285 00:22:34,076 --> 00:22:37,236 Speaker 1: through these black friends, and it was sort of like 286 00:22:37,636 --> 00:22:40,756 Speaker 1: I guess you could say the miseducation of ury Coortiama 287 00:22:40,956 --> 00:22:45,956 Speaker 1: from them going on where she became very involved with 288 00:22:46,036 --> 00:22:50,596 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement, with the local politics of Harlem, 289 00:22:50,996 --> 00:22:54,676 Speaker 1: and then she became friends with Malcolm X, and from 290 00:22:54,756 --> 00:22:59,516 Speaker 1: that point on she was just an integral part of 291 00:22:59,796 --> 00:23:03,076 Speaker 1: that black struggle. I mean, she was just always there fighting. 292 00:23:03,076 --> 00:23:05,916 Speaker 1: And there's a photo of her actually, which is how 293 00:23:05,956 --> 00:23:11,356 Speaker 1: I came across her when Malcolm X was murdered. There's 294 00:23:11,436 --> 00:23:15,396 Speaker 1: her holding his head up, and that was the first 295 00:23:15,436 --> 00:23:18,556 Speaker 1: time I saw her. I was like, who's that Asian 296 00:23:18,676 --> 00:23:22,036 Speaker 1: woman in that picture? And then she went on. I mean, 297 00:23:22,116 --> 00:23:26,756 Speaker 1: she was just very generous. She fought for Puerto Rican independence. 298 00:23:27,076 --> 00:23:30,516 Speaker 1: She was also among many of the Japanese Americans who 299 00:23:30,956 --> 00:23:34,596 Speaker 1: fought for and received some reparations for the Japanese in 300 00:23:34,676 --> 00:23:37,956 Speaker 1: tournament and so forth. I actually learned about it the 301 00:23:37,996 --> 00:23:40,516 Speaker 1: same way you did. I came across that picture. Yeah, 302 00:23:40,516 --> 00:23:43,116 Speaker 1: I asked the question, like, who's this Asian woman? And 303 00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:47,156 Speaker 1: then I learned her name, and then I learned about 304 00:23:47,196 --> 00:23:50,556 Speaker 1: her life, and then that then caused me to want 305 00:23:50,596 --> 00:23:53,916 Speaker 1: to research even more, and then it allowed me to 306 00:23:53,956 --> 00:24:00,716 Speaker 1: connect anti Asian racism to anti black racism. W the 307 00:24:00,876 --> 00:24:06,276 Speaker 1: Boys during his life thought black and Asian solidarity were critical, 308 00:24:06,316 --> 00:24:10,196 Speaker 1: and throughout your book you spoke to that the critical 309 00:24:10,236 --> 00:24:15,196 Speaker 1: importance of solidarity between black and Asian peoples. There are 310 00:24:15,636 --> 00:24:20,796 Speaker 1: so many instances throughout history. Black Americans have been there 311 00:24:20,836 --> 00:24:25,556 Speaker 1: from the beginning, backing Asian Americans. Going back to what 312 00:24:25,716 --> 00:24:30,876 Speaker 1: Frederick Douglas said he was against the immigration band against 313 00:24:31,116 --> 00:24:36,116 Speaker 1: Chinese Americans. He said, when there is a supposed conflict 314 00:24:36,156 --> 00:24:39,836 Speaker 1: between human national rights, it is safe to go to 315 00:24:39,956 --> 00:24:43,636 Speaker 1: the side of humanity. I could go on about like 316 00:24:44,156 --> 00:24:48,716 Speaker 1: the examples of interracial solidarity, the Black support for Filipino 317 00:24:48,876 --> 00:24:53,196 Speaker 1: freedom fighters during the Philippine American War, or how the 318 00:24:53,316 --> 00:24:56,516 Speaker 1: term Asian American wouldn't exist without the support of the 319 00:24:56,516 --> 00:25:00,836 Speaker 1: Black Power movement in nineteen sixty five Filipinos and Central 320 00:25:00,836 --> 00:25:04,236 Speaker 1: American farm workers locked arms and went on the Delano 321 00:25:04,756 --> 00:25:09,276 Speaker 1: grape strike. I think some Asian Americans are aware of it. 322 00:25:09,276 --> 00:25:13,196 Speaker 1: It's interesting that my book is now being translated. It's 323 00:25:13,236 --> 00:25:15,876 Speaker 1: coming out in Korea, and I had to write a 324 00:25:15,876 --> 00:25:18,396 Speaker 1: prolog for it, and I think a lot of Koreans 325 00:25:18,396 --> 00:25:21,436 Speaker 1: have not a lot of understanding of race in America, 326 00:25:21,556 --> 00:25:25,476 Speaker 1: and I just had to emphasize in the prolog, how 327 00:25:25,756 --> 00:25:29,236 Speaker 1: if we're going to be talking about indebtedness or gratitude 328 00:25:29,756 --> 00:25:33,756 Speaker 1: as well as solidarian coalition building. I was saying that 329 00:25:33,916 --> 00:25:38,396 Speaker 1: much of the rights that Asian Americans gained in the 330 00:25:38,516 --> 00:25:45,156 Speaker 1: US wouldn't have come about without the support of Black 331 00:25:45,196 --> 00:25:51,596 Speaker 1: Americans and their own ongoing struggle for justice. Another example 332 00:25:51,796 --> 00:25:58,196 Speaker 1: I would point out my parents came after nineteen sixty five, 333 00:25:58,836 --> 00:26:01,716 Speaker 1: which is the heart Seller Act, where they finally opened 334 00:26:01,796 --> 00:26:09,396 Speaker 1: up the immigration ban against Asia, Africa and Latin American country. 335 00:26:09,636 --> 00:26:12,996 Speaker 1: And part of the reason why they opened up the 336 00:26:13,116 --> 00:26:16,876 Speaker 1: country was because of the civil rights movement, Because of 337 00:26:16,916 --> 00:26:21,716 Speaker 1: the footage of black struggle and the violent exposure of 338 00:26:22,156 --> 00:26:26,636 Speaker 1: Jim Crowe spreading around the world. Cold war politics was 339 00:26:26,676 --> 00:26:31,156 Speaker 1: being combined with civil rights, and so forth and America 340 00:26:31,316 --> 00:26:35,756 Speaker 1: was afraid. They were trying to stamp out communism and 341 00:26:36,196 --> 00:26:39,516 Speaker 1: what was happening in America was making America look bad. 342 00:26:39,836 --> 00:26:42,756 Speaker 1: And I tell my parents and I think maybe a 343 00:26:42,756 --> 00:26:45,636 Speaker 1: lot of older generation Asian immigrants don't know that they 344 00:26:45,636 --> 00:26:50,996 Speaker 1: wouldn't be here if it weren't for black struggle. And 345 00:26:51,036 --> 00:26:54,836 Speaker 1: also later on during the late sixties, during the Vietnam 346 00:26:54,916 --> 00:26:58,796 Speaker 1: War and the Black Power movement, there was a coalition 347 00:26:59,116 --> 00:27:03,956 Speaker 1: of Asian Americans who also demanded equity and to be 348 00:27:03,996 --> 00:27:08,956 Speaker 1: recognized as people. There was a real allianceship during that time. 349 00:27:09,716 --> 00:27:14,636 Speaker 1: There are lionships throughout history since then, but I think 350 00:27:14,676 --> 00:27:16,756 Speaker 1: that was I don't know. For me at least had 351 00:27:16,796 --> 00:27:20,516 Speaker 1: seemed like a very pivotal seminal moment because that was 352 00:27:20,636 --> 00:27:24,756 Speaker 1: the birth of the term Asian American, which again wouldn't 353 00:27:24,796 --> 00:27:28,636 Speaker 1: have come about without the Black Power movement. And I 354 00:27:28,676 --> 00:27:32,836 Speaker 1: can say certainly the inspiration has gone both ways. As 355 00:27:32,916 --> 00:27:35,876 Speaker 1: you know, there were civil rights and black power activists 356 00:27:35,956 --> 00:27:40,716 Speaker 1: who were inspired by Asian revolutionaries, by Asians who engaged 357 00:27:40,796 --> 00:27:45,356 Speaker 1: in the decolonization movements across Asia, and it reminds me 358 00:27:45,396 --> 00:27:49,356 Speaker 1: of the Ban Dung Conference in nineteen fifty five, the 359 00:27:49,396 --> 00:27:53,396 Speaker 1: Asian African Conference, where you had all these people who 360 00:27:53,396 --> 00:27:58,396 Speaker 1: were engaged in struggles to decolonize their countries, who came 361 00:27:58,436 --> 00:28:03,196 Speaker 1: together under one principle of self determination. And even Malcolm 362 00:28:03,316 --> 00:28:06,836 Speaker 1: X in one of his most famous speeches, references the 363 00:28:06,876 --> 00:28:10,476 Speaker 1: band Dung Conference when he's talking about the importance of solidarity. 364 00:28:10,756 --> 00:28:12,836 Speaker 1: And once you study what happened at the band Dun 365 00:28:12,916 --> 00:28:16,156 Speaker 1: Conference and the results of the band Dun Conference, it 366 00:28:16,276 --> 00:28:20,076 Speaker 1: actually serves as a model for the same procedure you 367 00:28:20,076 --> 00:28:23,756 Speaker 1: and I can use to get out problems. At BANDOM, 368 00:28:23,996 --> 00:28:27,156 Speaker 1: all the nations came together. They were doc nations from 369 00:28:27,156 --> 00:28:30,636 Speaker 1: Africa and Asia. Some of them were Buddhists, some of 370 00:28:30,676 --> 00:28:33,116 Speaker 1: them were Muslims, some of them were Christians, some of 371 00:28:33,156 --> 00:28:37,876 Speaker 1: them were Confucianists, some were atheists. Despite their religious differences, 372 00:28:38,236 --> 00:28:42,876 Speaker 1: they came together. Yeah. People don't talk about that Bandung 373 00:28:43,316 --> 00:28:47,356 Speaker 1: Conference as much, or that multi ethnic coalition that was 374 00:28:47,396 --> 00:28:51,596 Speaker 1: happening with the Third World Liberation Front. Yeah. And also 375 00:28:52,036 --> 00:28:56,156 Speaker 1: the fact that Black Panthers were very much influenced. I mean, 376 00:28:56,516 --> 00:29:00,396 Speaker 1: they didn't know what they were going to become, you know, 377 00:29:00,476 --> 00:29:03,276 Speaker 1: Ho Chi men and Mao and oh yeah. Yeah. And 378 00:29:03,356 --> 00:29:06,956 Speaker 1: of course Martin Luther King being inspired by Gandhi. So 379 00:29:07,076 --> 00:29:11,636 Speaker 1: there was that kind of real mutual influence happening in 380 00:29:11,676 --> 00:29:17,196 Speaker 1: their flight for justice against white imperialism. And it's different now, 381 00:29:17,436 --> 00:29:20,476 Speaker 1: you know, I think there's still this. I don't know, 382 00:29:20,716 --> 00:29:22,676 Speaker 1: maybe it's not. I mean, do you think it's different? 383 00:29:23,156 --> 00:29:29,236 Speaker 1: I actually do. I think in the sixties, people because 384 00:29:29,236 --> 00:29:34,396 Speaker 1: they were closer to those very profound coalitions that you 385 00:29:34,396 --> 00:29:39,116 Speaker 1: were talking about, because they knew and saw even those 386 00:29:39,796 --> 00:29:44,956 Speaker 1: inspirational African and Asian new Heads of States or revolutionaries 387 00:29:45,116 --> 00:29:48,676 Speaker 1: coming together, or they saw members of the Black Panther 388 00:29:48,756 --> 00:29:52,676 Speaker 1: Party selling little red books to make money. Yeah. I 389 00:29:52,716 --> 00:29:55,956 Speaker 1: just don't know whether people in the Black community and 390 00:29:55,996 --> 00:29:58,956 Speaker 1: people in the Asian community are knowledgeable about that history 391 00:29:58,996 --> 00:30:03,236 Speaker 1: of solidarity today, and I think that combined with white 392 00:30:03,276 --> 00:30:08,396 Speaker 1: supremacists trying to urge both communities to imagine that they 393 00:30:08,596 --> 00:30:12,356 Speaker 1: are in position. Yeah, I just wish we were able 394 00:30:12,356 --> 00:30:15,396 Speaker 1: to really recover that history, but now their efforts to 395 00:30:15,436 --> 00:30:19,836 Speaker 1: not even teach history in schools. I would also like 396 00:30:19,956 --> 00:30:22,836 Speaker 1: to see more of a curricular emphasis or just more 397 00:30:22,836 --> 00:30:28,916 Speaker 1: conversations about interracial solidarity and interracial conflict, because I think 398 00:30:28,956 --> 00:30:33,676 Speaker 1: that's just under examined I just think right now because 399 00:30:33,716 --> 00:30:38,436 Speaker 1: of the way racial capitalism divides people of color. Yeah, 400 00:30:38,556 --> 00:30:44,036 Speaker 1: there's so much fractiousness. There's real attempts at cross racial solidarity, 401 00:30:44,516 --> 00:30:49,156 Speaker 1: but I think there's still a lot of misunderstanding between 402 00:30:49,276 --> 00:30:54,236 Speaker 1: racist too. Yeah. In talking to Black Americans and even 403 00:30:54,316 --> 00:30:58,636 Speaker 1: Latin X Americans about the model minority myth, I try 404 00:30:58,676 --> 00:31:01,916 Speaker 1: to remind folks that the framing of the model minority 405 00:31:02,316 --> 00:31:06,156 Speaker 1: hangs on the problem minority in a way, that both 406 00:31:06,196 --> 00:31:11,596 Speaker 1: framings degraded both groups in different types of ways. Another 407 00:31:11,636 --> 00:31:15,836 Speaker 1: reason why I really appreciated your work, specifically this book, 408 00:31:16,676 --> 00:31:19,716 Speaker 1: is because it seemed to me that you were writing 409 00:31:19,956 --> 00:31:23,356 Speaker 1: for Asian Americans. You even write that there's quite a 410 00:31:23,356 --> 00:31:26,276 Speaker 1: bit of literature on the self hating Black person, the 411 00:31:26,396 --> 00:31:30,516 Speaker 1: self hating Jewish American, but there isn't as much on 412 00:31:30,596 --> 00:31:34,836 Speaker 1: the self hating Asian American. And you were very vulnerable. 413 00:31:36,116 --> 00:31:39,516 Speaker 1: How were you able to draw that courage to be vulnerable, 414 00:31:39,596 --> 00:31:42,676 Speaker 1: to be self reflective, to even be self critical. It 415 00:31:42,716 --> 00:31:45,956 Speaker 1: was very hard. I was kind of kept by private 416 00:31:45,996 --> 00:31:52,116 Speaker 1: life private. But one revelation I had was after watching 417 00:31:52,516 --> 00:31:56,356 Speaker 1: Richard Pryor stand up, I was really just blown away 418 00:31:56,396 --> 00:32:02,036 Speaker 1: by his caustic humor, honesty, rage, but also the vulnerability 419 00:32:02,316 --> 00:32:07,116 Speaker 1: and how much he was able to expose himself and 420 00:32:07,836 --> 00:32:11,076 Speaker 1: the dark underbelly of the country through his humor. And 421 00:32:11,156 --> 00:32:13,516 Speaker 1: I said, I want to do that. If I really 422 00:32:13,556 --> 00:32:16,596 Speaker 1: want to get my perspective on race in this country, 423 00:32:16,636 --> 00:32:20,436 Speaker 1: I have to write about my own personal experiences, not 424 00:32:20,596 --> 00:32:24,036 Speaker 1: just experiences where I was a victim. I think it 425 00:32:24,116 --> 00:32:27,556 Speaker 1: was really important to me that I didn't have a 426 00:32:27,676 --> 00:32:31,796 Speaker 1: halo above my head to show the ways in which 427 00:32:31,956 --> 00:32:36,036 Speaker 1: I sided with power rather than the powerless. It was 428 00:32:36,076 --> 00:32:39,316 Speaker 1: important for me to implicate myself as much as possible. 429 00:32:39,916 --> 00:32:43,716 Speaker 1: That was also, I guess part of the honesty. I 430 00:32:43,796 --> 00:32:47,716 Speaker 1: don't consider myself as self hating Asian. That's just one 431 00:32:47,716 --> 00:32:51,476 Speaker 1: of the many facets of myself. The book was this 432 00:32:51,596 --> 00:32:58,676 Speaker 1: sort of progress of the decolonization of my mind, how 433 00:32:58,756 --> 00:33:04,596 Speaker 1: I decolonized myself of this self hatred or this consciousness 434 00:33:04,676 --> 00:33:08,716 Speaker 1: that hated the body in which she was living. It's 435 00:33:08,756 --> 00:33:11,796 Speaker 1: not like it was this redemption, but I try to 436 00:33:11,796 --> 00:33:13,876 Speaker 1: write about it as more of a struggle that some 437 00:33:13,916 --> 00:33:23,676 Speaker 1: people can identify with. I'm Kathy Parkong, and you're listening 438 00:33:23,716 --> 00:33:32,236 Speaker 1: to be anti racist with Ebram X Candy. You're right 439 00:33:32,436 --> 00:33:35,756 Speaker 1: that the indignity of being Asian in this country has 440 00:33:35,796 --> 00:33:39,916 Speaker 1: been under reported. I think that in a way, this 441 00:33:40,116 --> 00:33:44,116 Speaker 1: sentence can really speak to what we've even seen in 442 00:33:44,116 --> 00:33:48,836 Speaker 1: the last year. I mean, you know, everyone always says 443 00:33:48,836 --> 00:33:53,076 Speaker 1: about how timely this book is, But the elderly being 444 00:33:53,156 --> 00:33:58,076 Speaker 1: pushed or assaulted, or being demeaned or condescended to or harassed, 445 00:33:58,156 --> 00:34:01,556 Speaker 1: that's not no. That was happening when I was growing 446 00:34:01,636 --> 00:34:04,716 Speaker 1: up countless times when I was with my parents. I 447 00:34:04,756 --> 00:34:08,116 Speaker 1: don't think it's just Asians. I'm sure black people, Latin X, 448 00:34:08,476 --> 00:34:12,436 Speaker 1: a lot of wagrants can identify with us. To see 449 00:34:12,756 --> 00:34:17,316 Speaker 1: someone who you are conditioned to respect inside the house 450 00:34:17,316 --> 00:34:20,476 Speaker 1: and then you leave the house and you just see 451 00:34:20,516 --> 00:34:25,276 Speaker 1: them being treated like dirt, treated like children. It was 452 00:34:25,356 --> 00:34:29,316 Speaker 1: so habitual that I was always on guard when I 453 00:34:29,396 --> 00:34:32,796 Speaker 1: walked around with my parents. I felt both this hurt, 454 00:34:32,916 --> 00:34:36,276 Speaker 1: pride and shame. I felt like I had to protect 455 00:34:36,316 --> 00:34:40,436 Speaker 1: my parents rather than the other way around. That was 456 00:34:40,596 --> 00:34:45,316 Speaker 1: more of the personal experience, But this indignity has been 457 00:34:45,356 --> 00:34:50,436 Speaker 1: documented since Asians first landed in this country. They were 458 00:34:50,476 --> 00:34:55,716 Speaker 1: always considered pestilence, vermin in human alien and what was 459 00:34:55,836 --> 00:35:01,676 Speaker 1: fascinating was that ugly racist attacks against Asians in America 460 00:35:01,956 --> 00:35:06,716 Speaker 1: were then imported to the wars abroad for Vietnam War, 461 00:35:07,356 --> 00:35:11,436 Speaker 1: the Korean War, and so forth. So when Americans were 462 00:35:11,596 --> 00:35:15,556 Speaker 1: going into other Asian countries under the flag of freedom, 463 00:35:15,636 --> 00:35:19,876 Speaker 1: they were bringing that same kind of racism upon the 464 00:35:19,956 --> 00:35:23,876 Speaker 1: people of that country. I think every Asian American will 465 00:35:23,876 --> 00:35:27,996 Speaker 1: have their own ancestral history of what that indignity means. 466 00:35:28,076 --> 00:35:31,636 Speaker 1: But that since I'm Korean, my own personal references are 467 00:35:32,036 --> 00:35:36,156 Speaker 1: the racism that I witnessed with my family, but then 468 00:35:36,196 --> 00:35:39,996 Speaker 1: also before that, what they had to endure when Americans 469 00:35:39,996 --> 00:35:43,876 Speaker 1: invaded the Peninsula. And so what did you think about 470 00:35:43,996 --> 00:35:47,716 Speaker 1: the efforts around and ultimately the passage of the COVID 471 00:35:47,796 --> 00:35:53,156 Speaker 1: nineteen Hate Crimes Act. I don't know. I think that 472 00:35:54,236 --> 00:36:01,036 Speaker 1: it didn't do enough. I don't think it did enough either. Yeah, 473 00:36:01,076 --> 00:36:05,956 Speaker 1: a lot of Asian American organizations over eighty five, I believe, 474 00:36:06,116 --> 00:36:10,196 Speaker 1: opposed the BELT before it wasn't even passed because it 475 00:36:10,236 --> 00:36:13,396 Speaker 1: doesn't do enough. They believe that it's pr that the 476 00:36:13,436 --> 00:36:18,116 Speaker 1: federal government is doing something, but they're actually not. You know, 477 00:36:18,196 --> 00:36:21,516 Speaker 1: I think it's not enough to just have more stats 478 00:36:21,676 --> 00:36:28,276 Speaker 1: and what is very troubling is how these incidents of 479 00:36:28,436 --> 00:36:32,796 Speaker 1: anti Asian violence is being used as part of an 480 00:36:32,836 --> 00:36:38,156 Speaker 1: excuse by the government to be law enforcement, which is 481 00:36:38,156 --> 00:36:42,156 Speaker 1: the wrong approach. As an example, let's go back to 482 00:36:42,756 --> 00:36:48,116 Speaker 1: the Atlanta massacre press conference. Police officer talked about the 483 00:36:48,196 --> 00:36:52,676 Speaker 1: murderer having a bad day, right he was pretty much 484 00:36:52,716 --> 00:36:54,396 Speaker 1: fed up and kind at the end of his rope, 485 00:36:54,396 --> 00:36:56,116 Speaker 1: and if it was a really bad day for him, 486 00:36:56,116 --> 00:36:58,436 Speaker 1: and this is what he did. Later on, Actually, a 487 00:36:58,516 --> 00:37:01,316 Speaker 1: journalists found out that this police officer was anti Chinese. 488 00:37:01,876 --> 00:37:04,996 Speaker 1: So we cannot rely on the law enforcement. The aim 489 00:37:05,036 --> 00:37:08,636 Speaker 1: should be on restorative justice. I think we need more 490 00:37:08,676 --> 00:37:12,716 Speaker 1: community based solutions. The rights of Asian Americans and Black 491 00:37:12,716 --> 00:37:18,996 Speaker 1: Americans are not mutually exclusive but interconnected. White supremacy historically 492 00:37:19,076 --> 00:37:23,116 Speaker 1: and still today makes us believe that they're in opposition, 493 00:37:23,156 --> 00:37:25,956 Speaker 1: but they're not. A friend. Put it to me this way, 494 00:37:25,996 --> 00:37:30,316 Speaker 1: which I thought was very astute. Yes, Asians get hate 495 00:37:30,356 --> 00:37:35,556 Speaker 1: crime by individuals, but Black Americans get hate crime by 496 00:37:35,636 --> 00:37:39,836 Speaker 1: the police and dugitial system. And most Asian writers and 497 00:37:39,956 --> 00:37:44,436 Speaker 1: activists I know support police in prison abolition. But this, 498 00:37:44,636 --> 00:37:48,356 Speaker 1: of course is a very long, uphill battle, which is 499 00:37:48,356 --> 00:37:51,356 Speaker 1: why black and Asian Americans really really really need each 500 00:37:51,396 --> 00:37:54,956 Speaker 1: other and must be there together for the struggle. There's 501 00:37:54,956 --> 00:37:58,436 Speaker 1: a chance that if Trump doesn't run for president, that 502 00:37:58,476 --> 00:38:00,636 Speaker 1: the Republican ticket could be a black man and an 503 00:38:00,636 --> 00:38:05,156 Speaker 1: Asian woman on twenty twenty four, And it seems there's 504 00:38:05,196 --> 00:38:09,636 Speaker 1: just more and more people of color who are being 505 00:38:09,676 --> 00:38:13,076 Speaker 1: funded at some of the highest levels to carry out 506 00:38:13,076 --> 00:38:17,996 Speaker 1: white supremacy. You speak a lot about internalized racist ideas 507 00:38:17,996 --> 00:38:20,236 Speaker 1: within the Asian American community. I speak about that within 508 00:38:20,276 --> 00:38:22,956 Speaker 1: the black community. So I'm just curious about your thoughts 509 00:38:22,956 --> 00:38:26,996 Speaker 1: about the politics of this as we move forward. Yes, 510 00:38:27,156 --> 00:38:29,556 Speaker 1: of course, I mean the reason why I started out 511 00:38:29,636 --> 00:38:33,476 Speaker 1: with a self hating Asian in minor feelings was I 512 00:38:33,516 --> 00:38:38,276 Speaker 1: was also writing to many Asian Americans who had this 513 00:38:38,476 --> 00:38:43,836 Speaker 1: kind of internal racism that was so corrosive that their 514 00:38:43,876 --> 00:38:50,236 Speaker 1: idea of belonging in this country means following this neoliberal 515 00:38:50,476 --> 00:38:55,876 Speaker 1: white supremacist agenda, not only follow it, but champion it, cheerlated, 516 00:38:55,996 --> 00:38:58,436 Speaker 1: and so forth. And you know, that was the only 517 00:38:58,476 --> 00:39:02,396 Speaker 1: way to kind of survive in this country. Loreno Grady, 518 00:39:02,836 --> 00:39:08,276 Speaker 1: she's this amazing artist who said, in the future, white 519 00:39:08,276 --> 00:39:13,516 Speaker 1: supremacy won't need white people in American minorities are going 520 00:39:13,556 --> 00:39:17,196 Speaker 1: to be the majority in twenty sixty. It doesn't matter, 521 00:39:17,636 --> 00:39:22,436 Speaker 1: I think if this kind of capitalist, white supremacist agenda 522 00:39:22,516 --> 00:39:26,916 Speaker 1: gets reproduced among Bye Block. This is something that I 523 00:39:26,956 --> 00:39:31,236 Speaker 1: am constantly vigilant and that I feel the sort of 524 00:39:31,276 --> 00:39:37,636 Speaker 1: responsibility to really keep this conversation going among Asian Americans. 525 00:39:38,516 --> 00:39:43,956 Speaker 1: For people who are interested in potentially being a part 526 00:39:43,996 --> 00:39:47,636 Speaker 1: of the struggle against racism in general, but even more 527 00:39:47,756 --> 00:39:53,276 Speaker 1: specifically anti Asian racism, what would you suggest for them 528 00:39:53,316 --> 00:39:55,276 Speaker 1: to get started for them to be a part of this, 529 00:39:55,796 --> 00:40:01,476 Speaker 1: read your book No Reminor Feelings Start. I would say, 530 00:40:01,476 --> 00:40:05,716 Speaker 1: first of all, stop AAPI hate has all these different resources. 531 00:40:06,156 --> 00:40:08,956 Speaker 1: They have a list of initiatives on how to help 532 00:40:09,436 --> 00:40:12,636 Speaker 1: as an organizer or just as a sensitive person who 533 00:40:12,676 --> 00:40:16,916 Speaker 1: wants to help in some way. Movement Hub is a 534 00:40:16,956 --> 00:40:20,996 Speaker 1: great place to find a list of Asian American organizations. 535 00:40:21,436 --> 00:40:26,476 Speaker 1: Asian American Advancing Justice is also great. If we're talking 536 00:40:26,516 --> 00:40:31,396 Speaker 1: about interracial solidarity between black and Asian Americans. That group 537 00:40:31,436 --> 00:40:33,516 Speaker 1: and what they did to register and get out the 538 00:40:33,596 --> 00:40:37,556 Speaker 1: boat in twenty twenties a terrific example. I also think 539 00:40:37,556 --> 00:40:42,676 Speaker 1: it's really important to support Asian owned businesses like black 540 00:40:42,796 --> 00:40:47,236 Speaker 1: and Latin X owned businesses. Asian small businesses were really 541 00:40:47,276 --> 00:40:52,236 Speaker 1: hard hit by COVID with the risk of dealing with harassment. 542 00:40:52,916 --> 00:40:56,916 Speaker 1: I know this personally because my whole extended family who 543 00:40:56,956 --> 00:41:00,396 Speaker 1: live in California are in dry cleaning and they have 544 00:41:00,556 --> 00:41:05,476 Speaker 1: really struggled throughout twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. Encourage 545 00:41:05,876 --> 00:41:11,356 Speaker 1: local schools and libraries and communities to have diverse curriculum 546 00:41:11,396 --> 00:41:15,356 Speaker 1: that includes Asian American history as well as book clubs 547 00:41:15,396 --> 00:41:19,116 Speaker 1: and discussion groups and so forth. And also I think 548 00:41:19,236 --> 00:41:25,156 Speaker 1: it's important to constantly engage and have conversations with family 549 00:41:25,236 --> 00:41:30,076 Speaker 1: members who might not be as understanding as you are. 550 00:41:30,996 --> 00:41:35,396 Speaker 1: During the summer, George Floyd, all these younger Asian Americans 551 00:41:35,436 --> 00:41:39,916 Speaker 1: wrote letters to their parents and their grandparents and so forth, 552 00:41:39,956 --> 00:41:43,756 Speaker 1: talking them, trying to educate them about what was happening 553 00:41:43,796 --> 00:41:48,156 Speaker 1: with Black Lives Matter and police brutality. And I was 554 00:41:48,236 --> 00:41:50,916 Speaker 1: moved by that. And then I would say, just read 555 00:41:50,916 --> 00:41:54,156 Speaker 1: as much as you can read The Color of Success 556 00:41:54,156 --> 00:41:57,996 Speaker 1: by Ellen wo and Making of Asian America by Erica Lee. 557 00:41:58,356 --> 00:42:01,676 Speaker 1: Another great book is Bengali Harlem by v. Veck Bald, 558 00:42:02,036 --> 00:42:05,716 Speaker 1: as well as poetry by chen Chen and Tarfia Fasula 559 00:42:05,876 --> 00:42:10,156 Speaker 1: and Monica Soak. Asian American Writers Workshop is a terrific 560 00:42:10,196 --> 00:42:13,996 Speaker 1: resource to get yourself acquainted with their vast library of books. 561 00:42:14,516 --> 00:42:21,556 Speaker 1: So that's my list of resources there. Well, Kathy park Hung, 562 00:42:21,636 --> 00:42:24,876 Speaker 1: I'm so glad we were able to spend some time together. 563 00:42:25,636 --> 00:42:29,636 Speaker 1: Your book, Minor Feelings in Asian American Reckoning was just 564 00:42:29,796 --> 00:42:34,156 Speaker 1: extremely powerful. I'm glad Pullitzer named it a finalist. Thank you. 565 00:42:34,556 --> 00:42:38,996 Speaker 1: I'm happy we're really able to talk about this interracial 566 00:42:39,036 --> 00:42:44,076 Speaker 1: solidarity that's possible, that is certainly in the history of 567 00:42:44,116 --> 00:42:47,356 Speaker 1: this country, in the history of the world, and the 568 00:42:47,436 --> 00:42:53,476 Speaker 1: critical importance of building thos multiracial coalitions to ensure that 569 00:42:53,516 --> 00:42:59,596 Speaker 1: we build a multiracial democracy in which everyone will be visible, 570 00:43:00,196 --> 00:43:04,276 Speaker 1: in which everyone will be respected, in which every community 571 00:43:04,676 --> 00:43:08,676 Speaker 1: from older Asian Americans to younger Black women will be 572 00:43:08,756 --> 00:43:12,196 Speaker 1: protect did And I'm excited to figure out a way 573 00:43:12,236 --> 00:43:16,556 Speaker 1: to build that with you. We'll do it together, definitely, 574 00:43:16,796 --> 00:43:26,796 Speaker 1: all right, Thank you, take it easy. Black and Asian 575 00:43:26,836 --> 00:43:30,676 Speaker 1: liberation have always been informed by the unique histories and 576 00:43:30,756 --> 00:43:36,116 Speaker 1: experiences of these communities. However, the racist realities confronted by 577 00:43:36,196 --> 00:43:39,596 Speaker 1: Asian and Black people living in the United States have 578 00:43:39,676 --> 00:43:44,636 Speaker 1: always been connected. After emancipation removed their access to cheap 579 00:43:44,716 --> 00:43:50,396 Speaker 1: black labor, railroad companies and other large employers exploited Chinese laborers, 580 00:43:51,116 --> 00:43:55,076 Speaker 1: forcing them to work long hours in dangerous conditions for 581 00:43:55,196 --> 00:43:58,916 Speaker 1: little pay. Just as white workers in the South feared 582 00:43:58,996 --> 00:44:03,556 Speaker 1: economic competition from free black people, many white workers out 583 00:44:03,596 --> 00:44:08,036 Speaker 1: West thought Asian laborers would lower wages and take their jobs. 584 00:44:09,196 --> 00:44:12,276 Speaker 1: In response, Congress did not make it easier for all 585 00:44:12,396 --> 00:44:17,836 Speaker 1: races to band together against capital. Congress passed restrictive immigration 586 00:44:17,916 --> 00:44:21,596 Speaker 1: laws in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries that 587 00:44:21,676 --> 00:44:26,076 Speaker 1: originally were intended to exclude Asian immigrants, but were broadened 588 00:44:26,076 --> 00:44:30,316 Speaker 1: to exclude black people, Latin X people in Middle Eastern people, 589 00:44:30,636 --> 00:44:35,796 Speaker 1: as well as European Jews, Irish Catholics, Southern and Eastern Europeans, 590 00:44:36,116 --> 00:44:42,156 Speaker 1: people with disabilities, and LGBTQ plus people. Then and now, 591 00:44:42,476 --> 00:44:47,396 Speaker 1: racist policies hurt not just their intended targets, but everyone. 592 00:44:48,036 --> 00:44:53,476 Speaker 1: Racism requires the fight of everyone. For Yuri Kocheyama and 593 00:44:53,596 --> 00:44:59,196 Speaker 1: Malcolm X, this solidarity began with a handshake when Kochayama 594 00:44:59,316 --> 00:45:02,956 Speaker 1: met Malcolm in nineteen sixty three and asked to shake 595 00:45:03,036 --> 00:45:08,076 Speaker 1: his hand. Malcolm asked, why to congratulate you for giving 596 00:45:08,116 --> 00:45:12,876 Speaker 1: direction to your people. She answered, they both gave direction 597 00:45:13,036 --> 00:45:18,316 Speaker 1: to interracial anti racist solidarity. We must all shake hands 598 00:45:18,356 --> 00:45:34,316 Speaker 1: in struggle. We must all be anti racist. Thank you 599 00:45:34,396 --> 00:45:37,716 Speaker 1: for rolling with me this season on Be Anti Racist. 600 00:45:38,316 --> 00:45:41,876 Speaker 1: I learned so much about how to be anti racist, 601 00:45:42,276 --> 00:45:46,076 Speaker 1: about what racist policies we should be fighting against, about 602 00:45:46,076 --> 00:45:49,836 Speaker 1: what anti racist policies we should be fighting for, from 603 00:45:49,836 --> 00:45:54,076 Speaker 1: some of the most brilliant and thoughtful people around. Shout 604 00:45:54,116 --> 00:45:57,956 Speaker 1: out to Rebecca Coakley, Heather McGee, Ari Berman, Don Lemmon, 605 00:45:58,156 --> 00:46:03,156 Speaker 1: Jamal Hill, Robin d g Kelley, Julian Kastro, Maryam Kava, 606 00:46:03,636 --> 00:46:07,876 Speaker 1: David Troyer, and Kathy park Hong. Shout out to all 607 00:46:07,876 --> 00:46:11,956 Speaker 1: the folks who joined us on the Juneteenth mixtape, including 608 00:46:11,996 --> 00:46:17,516 Speaker 1: Annette Gordon Read, Adam Surer, Tia Miles, and Maurice Carlos Ruffin. 609 00:46:18,076 --> 00:46:21,556 Speaker 1: Shout out to my great colleagues Adeline, Tammy and Heather 610 00:46:22,116 --> 00:46:26,156 Speaker 1: and all the good folks at Pushkin, especially Sasha, Alexandra 611 00:46:26,316 --> 00:46:29,836 Speaker 1: and Britt Thank you for all your help producing this season. 612 00:46:30,516 --> 00:46:34,236 Speaker 1: But the biggest shouts are for you. Thank you for 613 00:46:34,396 --> 00:46:37,876 Speaker 1: rolling with us towards figuring out how to build a 614 00:46:38,036 --> 00:46:42,356 Speaker 1: just an equitable world. I encourage you to check out 615 00:46:42,396 --> 00:46:47,076 Speaker 1: the listener guides for each episode. These guides contain lists 616 00:46:47,196 --> 00:46:51,436 Speaker 1: or further readings, resources, and anti racist organizations to support. 617 00:46:52,156 --> 00:46:55,636 Speaker 1: They are posted on the Pushkin website at pushkin dot 618 00:46:55,676 --> 00:47:00,996 Speaker 1: fm under each episode of the show. You can always 619 00:47:01,116 --> 00:47:03,596 Speaker 1: keep up with me and my work on Twitter at 620 00:47:03,716 --> 00:47:08,396 Speaker 1: dr Ebram and on Instagram at Ebram x k and 621 00:47:08,476 --> 00:47:12,716 Speaker 1: through the Center for Anti Racist Research at Boston University. 622 00:47:13,556 --> 00:47:17,476 Speaker 1: Until next time, I'm ebramx Kendy, reminding you that the 623 00:47:17,556 --> 00:47:21,276 Speaker 1: racial problem is not the people who are pointing out racism. 624 00:47:21,356 --> 00:47:24,196 Speaker 1: The racial problem is not what's wrong with people on 625 00:47:24,316 --> 00:47:28,116 Speaker 1: the lower and dying end of racial disparities. The racial 626 00:47:28,156 --> 00:47:32,876 Speaker 1: problem is racist power and policy and the racist ideas 627 00:47:33,076 --> 00:47:39,316 Speaker 1: upholding power and policy. The structures of racism are the problem. 628 00:47:39,396 --> 00:47:42,436 Speaker 1: We can no longer be not racist. If we hope 629 00:47:42,436 --> 00:47:48,316 Speaker 1: to free humanity from racism, we must be anti racist. 630 00:47:58,036 --> 00:48:00,796 Speaker 1: Be Anti Racist is a production of Pushkin Industries and 631 00:48:00,876 --> 00:48:03,316 Speaker 1: Our Heart Media. It is written and hosted by doctor 632 00:48:03,356 --> 00:48:07,116 Speaker 1: ebramic Kindy and produced by Alexandra Gerriton with associate producer 633 00:48:07,156 --> 00:48:11,116 Speaker 1: Britney Brown. Our engineer has been Holiday. Our editors Julia Barton, 634 00:48:11,436 --> 00:48:15,236 Speaker 1: Our Shore Runners Sasha Matthias. Our executive producers Arelie, Tom 635 00:48:15,236 --> 00:48:18,476 Speaker 1: Wollad and Mio Lobell. Many thanks to Tammy Win and 636 00:48:18,516 --> 00:48:21,116 Speaker 1: doctor Hedda Standford at the Center for Anti Racist Research 637 00:48:21,156 --> 00:48:24,356 Speaker 1: at Boston University for all of the help. Speaking of help, 638 00:48:24,356 --> 00:48:26,556 Speaker 1: an entire team of people at Pushkin Industries and Our 639 00:48:26,596 --> 00:48:29,516 Speaker 1: Heart Media helped bring this podcast to life at Our 640 00:48:29,556 --> 00:48:32,916 Speaker 1: Heart thanks to Conn all Byrne, Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman, 641 00:48:33,396 --> 00:48:37,116 Speaker 1: Nathan Otoski and Alison Wright and that Pushkin Endless Thanks 642 00:48:37,116 --> 00:48:42,236 Speaker 1: to Heather Fame, Carli mcgleiore, John Schnars, Jackson Gambro, Sophie mckibbon, 643 00:48:42,676 --> 00:48:48,516 Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Nicole Morano, Eric Sandler, Christina Sullivan, Brian Sabrinik, 644 00:48:48,916 --> 00:48:54,956 Speaker 1: Daniela Lakhan, Maya Knick, Kadija Holland, Malcolm Gladwell, and Jacob Wiseburn. 645 00:48:55,836 --> 00:48:57,956 Speaker 1: You can find doctor Kendy on Twitter at d r 646 00:48:58,036 --> 00:49:01,276 Speaker 1: Ebram and on Instagram at Ebram x K. You can 647 00:49:01,276 --> 00:49:04,356 Speaker 1: find Pushkin all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you 648 00:49:04,356 --> 00:49:06,316 Speaker 1: can sign up for our news letter at Pushkin dot 649 00:49:06,356 --> 00:49:09,436 Speaker 1: fm to find out Pushkin podcast. Listen on the Our 650 00:49:09,476 --> 00:49:12,996 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. 651 00:49:23,516 --> 00:49:23,556 Speaker 1: M