1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes. 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: This is buried bones. 13 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 3: Hey, Kate, how are you doing great? 14 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: Paul? How are you? 15 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 3: No, I'm doing really good. 16 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to hearing more about this case that 17 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: you told me, or at least you started last week. 18 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get back to Eugene, Oregon. Really it's Lane County, Oregon. 19 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: Because we have these teenagers who are a couple, a 20 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: sixteen year old and a seventeen year old, Leanna and Eric, 21 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: and they turn up dead at an area that they 22 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: say is recreational but looks to us to be incredibly 23 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: packed full of vegetation. It's at Fall Creek, which is 24 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: in the Broken Bowl, which is sort of a park area, 25 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: and they were supposed to go fishing and now they 26 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: are dead. It looks like a sexual assault with Leanna, 27 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: but we're not one hundred percent sure what sequence of 28 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: events happened. They're both shot with the twenty two. We 29 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: don't have any suspects, and after a couple of months, 30 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: the police are trying to pursue this, but they're starting 31 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: to run out of leads. It sounds like they have 32 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: done a lot for nineteen seventy seven. You know. They 33 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: have canvassed the area. They have dug into both of 34 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: their lives to see if they have any enemies. They 35 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: have looked up local sexual offenders. They've done a lot, 36 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: and after a couple of months, Leanna and Eric's families 37 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: are pretty desperate, and Leanna's stepmother, Virginia, eventually hire a psychic. 38 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: So I want to start with I am not going 39 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: to talk negatively about psychics. I have talked about them 40 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: in books before. I don't ever want to judge whether 41 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: or not somebody believes in something. I do wonder about 42 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: psychics being involved with police investigations have you worked with 43 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: one number one on anything, and number two, I'm assuming 44 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: you have been solicited before as somebody who's working on 45 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: an investigation or is that just a movie thing and 46 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: it never happens. 47 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: No, no, it happens, you know. With the cases that 48 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: I really focused in on in terms of cold cases, 49 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 2: of course, I was looking at cases that predominantly were 50 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 2: happening at the same time as this case back in 51 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies, and psychics were frequently popping up in 52 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 2: these case files, some cases that I was digging into 53 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: and giving their insights as to Sometimes it was the 54 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 2: location of a missing person, sometimes it was their thoughts 55 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 2: as to who the offender might be. And I will 56 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: say that in any of these cases in which I've 57 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: seen psychics provide information, none of the information that they 58 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: provided led to solving the case. I know, when you 59 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: start looking at cases in the nineteen eighties, you really 60 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 2: see law enforcements use of psychics diminish rapidly because it 61 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: just really wasn't paying off. Now, I personally have had 62 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 2: at least one person claiming to have psychic capabilities come 63 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: forward and try to give me some information on a case. 64 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: Sometimes you do have people who feel that they are 65 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 2: sensing something. However, they want to describe what they're feeling, 66 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: and that they feel that this is accurate information that 67 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: they divulge, and that's great, always take it. It's just again, 68 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: there doesn't appear to be any track record in which 69 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 2: I can have confidence in the information that somebody who's 70 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: claiming that they've developed information through some sort of psychic capability. 71 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: That it's just like, well, how much time and effort 72 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 2: am I going to put into that particular lead when 73 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: I've got all these other leads that are coming in 74 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 2: from maybe more proven types of sources of information. So 75 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 2: it's very rare today. I think families will be more 76 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: likely to reach out to psychics out of desperation, but 77 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 2: law enforcement generally will not. But psychic still to this 78 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: day will call law enforcement up to try to provide assistance. 79 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: It's interesting, you know, this seems almost like a little 80 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: bit of a case study of the information that a 81 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: psychic would have given a family or an investment. Gator 82 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: Virginia's husband, his name is Gaylord. Gaylord hires a psychic 83 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 1: named Gwynn Wilcox who has worked on police investigations on 84 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: the past. No word on how helpful she's been, but 85 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: they're hoping that she can shed some light on the crime. 86 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: They've talked to several men of interest and they just 87 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: haven't panned out. So, according to will Cox, she sort 88 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: of spouts out this flood of disconnected details about Leanna's death, 89 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: which includes this is interesting. It's a mishmash of things, 90 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: is the best way I can describe it. Loud music, 91 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 1: rock and roll, souped up, pickup, rape on mind, group 92 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: of men at into bar, single out, follow and watch 93 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: personality problem. People really don't like him, three more rape cases. 94 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: Someone said, you don't have to do that. Seems to 95 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 1: be throwing something in the river, black handgun and forty 96 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: nine dollars in ninety five cents. I mean, Gwen, I 97 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, this would just drive her parents crazy. 98 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 3: I'm sure, oh sure you know. And this is, you know, 99 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 3: this kind of stream of consciousness. 100 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 2: I guess in terms of the types of details that 101 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: Gwin is providing, that is often that the types of 102 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 2: information that comes in from people who are delving into 103 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: this psychic world, you know. So for me as an investigator, 104 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: it's like, okay, what within that bit of information gives 105 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 2: me something where I can narrow a suspect pool, well, 106 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: pickup truck, maybe, you know, three rapes. It sounds like 107 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 2: Win is indicating that this person either prior to or 108 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,559 Speaker 2: contemporaneous with the crime of the double homicide of Leon 109 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: and Eric, this individual that law enforcements looking for, possibly 110 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 2: has other sexual assaults and maybe is somebody that's known 111 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: to law enforcement, you know. But it sounds like law 112 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: enforcement was already which is typical. Okay, this looks like 113 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 2: a sexually motivated crime. Who are the sex offenders in 114 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 2: the area, you know, and let's see which ones you 115 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 2: know would potentially add up investigatively. So this is very 116 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: much in line with the typical psychic information that I've 117 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 2: seen in case files, and it really unless there's something 118 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 2: where I can narrow the suspect pool, it really doesn't 119 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 2: help me advance the case. 120 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you it's so upsetting to the family. 121 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: Eric's biological father, Carl, kind of gets a hold of 122 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: this and says, well, I'm going to do everything I 123 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: can to follow up on this. He talks to gwyn Wilcox, 124 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: the psychic again. He says that she had mentioned something 125 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: about a dairy barn with riding on the wall, and 126 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: that the killers had climbed the hill and gone back 127 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: to the main highway on their way to a beer 128 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: place on the outskirts of town. So he takes this 129 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: information and this poor man searches every single barn he 130 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: can find looking for this dairy barn with riding on 131 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: the wall anywhere near the murder. He spends a huge 132 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: amount of time doing this, and he tracks down a 133 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: bar that seems to fit this very vague location of 134 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: where these men would have gone. But you know, he 135 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: goes to the staff members and says, this is what happened. 136 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: Did three men come in here on this night? And 137 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: nobody knows what he's talking about. It just makes him 138 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: look like a desperate, foolish man. He finally just gives 139 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: up at that point. It's awful. It's awful. 140 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 2: I've seen family make similar efforts on cases. In fact, 141 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: I have a case a little fifteen year old Cassette Allison, 142 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 2: which is one of my passion cases, and her dad 143 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 2: did a similar thing where he conducted his own investigation. 144 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 2: She was missing for ten months before her body was found, 145 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 2: and he compiled a very extensive notebook and to see 146 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: the types of efforts that he went through, initially to 147 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 2: find his daughter and then secondarily to find who killed her. 148 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 2: It's heartbreaking. A lot of his efforts are kind of 149 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 2: in the similar vein as in this case, where it's 150 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 2: such vague information that's coming in, and the reality is 151 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 2: is he was just spinning his wheels. 152 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: He's just trying to get control of something in his 153 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: life at this point. Yes, so, Carl says, you know, 154 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: later on, he says he has spent every moment trying 155 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: to think of what the motive was. Who did it? 156 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: Was this robbery, was it rape? Didn't have anything to 157 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: do with drugs? And then he said he called up 158 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: the police one time and said, you need to tell 159 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: me the truth. Do you think this was suicide? Do 160 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: you think that they did this to themselves on purpose? 161 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: He was that desperate, And of course, you know, we 162 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: couldn't prove it in the seventies because there's no DNA 163 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: analysis at this point, and to even say if there's 164 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: a new person who was introduced based on the seminal fluid, 165 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: but he is so desperate, imagine to think that about 166 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: your son that maybe he, you know, shot his girlfriend 167 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: and then shot himself or there was an agreement or 168 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: something must have just been awful awful. 169 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, but that's also so not really understanding 170 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:08,719 Speaker 2: the crime, the crime scene, the evidence, and a murder suicide. 171 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 2: There would be indicators present that law enforcement would be 172 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 2: able to say, yes, that's what this looks like based 173 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: on everything I've seen, the evidence that you've told me, 174 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 2: this does in no way, shape or form have murder 175 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 2: suicide as a possibility. 176 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: I think you're right. So now we're going to fast forward. 177 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 1: I would say it looks like about thirty years because 178 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: there are little bits and pieces of good news here. 179 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: This almost feels a little bit like a history lesson. 180 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: As we move this case along to find out what 181 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: technology was available, we no longer have the imminent danger 182 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 1: that the murders are happening, and we're kind of at 183 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: that scene. We are now in the geeky technology part, 184 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: which is I know one of your favorite You have 185 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: a big smile on your face that I haven't seen 186 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,239 Speaker 1: through this whole episode. So this is nice. 187 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: Oh, this case is you know, of course with modern 188 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: technology is just is very very solvable. 189 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: Well, buddy, we're not modern just yet. We're going to 190 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: go to the mid nineteen nineties, So this is twenty 191 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: years after the murders, and you just have to be 192 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: patient because we have a lot of steps to go 193 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: through and not surprisingly Paul a lot of people to 194 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: go through, despite the fact that we have all this technology. Okay, 195 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: So in the mid nineteen nineties, this is about twenty 196 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: years after the murders, detectives do not give up on 197 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: this case in Eugene, Oregon, and they think that because 198 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: of the advancements of DNA technology, they are going to 199 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: go ahead and resubmit the evidence of the case with 200 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: you know, updated processing. And this includes the towels that 201 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: were found with seminal fluid on them. So the State 202 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: lab is able to extract male DNA from these towels, 203 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: which is then submitted to the CODA system. But there's 204 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: no match with anyone in the system. So in the 205 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: mid nineteen nineties, does this surprise you that they, you know, 206 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: ran this with the technology they have and nobody popped 207 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: up in codas in the mid nineties. 208 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: Well, the FBI's CODE system went through its own maturation process. Initially, 209 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 2: starting in the late nineteen eighties, FBI's CODIS was built 210 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 2: on the initial technology DNA technology, this RFLP technology restriction 211 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 2: fragment length polymorphism, and this was the very technology that 212 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: Alec Jeffries at all out there in the Colin Pitchfork 213 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: case over in England had initially used for the very first. 214 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 3: Time using DNA. 215 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 2: Well, the FBI ends up compiling a database of convicted 216 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 2: offenders using this initial DNA technology RFLP technology, and then 217 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: right in this mid nineteen nineties timeframe is when we 218 00:12:54,400 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 2: started transitioning to this PCR based polymerice chain reaction based 219 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: DNA technology that gave us much better sensitivity to go 220 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: after crime scene samples that we couldn't use with the 221 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 2: old RFLP technology. And then eventually we started utilizing using 222 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 2: PCR this STR technology short tandem repeats, and this is 223 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: the modern type of DNA profile that is currently being 224 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: used today in CODIS. But in the mid nineteen nineties 225 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 2: I'm not entirely sure exactly what type of technology they did, 226 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: whether it would be the old RFLP or the newer 227 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 2: STR technology, because it's sort of in that transitional timeframe. However, 228 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 2: the DNA databases at that time were relatively small, and 229 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 2: CODIS is predicated on the repeat offender. There's a reason 230 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 2: why they're in the database, and then they leave it. 231 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: They commit another crime, and they leave a crime scene sample, 232 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 2: and now you hit to that person. The fact that 233 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: they didn't hit in the mid nineteen nineties just tells 234 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 2: me that at least at that point, the offender hadn't 235 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 2: been placed into the CODIS database. At some point afterwards, 236 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 2: the offender could be identified once he commits another crime 237 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: or gets arrested and a DNA profile gets put up 238 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 2: into COTIS. 239 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: I think, as we move along, I'm going to learn 240 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: even more and more about this. And I know that 241 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: we've talked about the evolution of this in the past, 242 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: but this case really does seem to illustrate how things 243 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: move forward starting from the mid nineteen nineties and then 244 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: finally we end up with some kind of a resolution. 245 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: So now we're going to go ten years later. There's 246 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: nothing happening in CODIS in the mid nineties. Fast forward 247 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: to two thousand and five, and there is a three 248 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: person team who assembles to look at these old cases 249 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: in Lane County. They're volunteers detectives. There is a detective 250 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: name Kurt West, and a police department veteran from Eugene 251 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: called Kirk Ingdahl, and a former state and federal prosecutor 252 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: whose name is Chuck Tilby. Sounds like a good team. 253 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: Someone of the police department and a state and federal 254 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: prosecutor and they're all retired, but between them they have 255 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: ninety years of investigative experience. They start meeting on a 256 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: weekly basis to discuss this case specifically. I thought this 257 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: was interesting. Their work is funded by donations. So does 258 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: that happen a lot? Is that how some of these 259 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: cold case squads come together. I didn't know you needed 260 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: donations to have a squad like that. 261 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 2: It really varies widely across the nation in terms of how, 262 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: you know, resources are acquired. 263 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 3: In order to look at cold cases. 264 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 2: And you know, this model of using retirees that are 265 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 2: very experienced, you know, is a very good model because 266 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 2: oftentimes they will work for free. They're just looking to 267 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: basically be engaged. 268 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 3: It's just like me. 269 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so this is one model now other departments. 270 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: No matter what you do, even if you have retirees 271 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 2: that come in to work a case and they say, 272 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 2: I don't want to be paid, I'll do this voluntarily. 273 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 2: An investigation still costs money, you know, so the department 274 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: is going to need within their budget, you know, to 275 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 2: be able to you know, pay for gas, pay for 276 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 2: travel expenses, pay for meals. There may be you may 277 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: have to hire experts or have forensic testing done. You 278 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: still have to spend money to do an investigation. Some 279 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 2: departments don't have that type of budget. And so now 280 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: this is where, well can you get grants? You know, 281 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: the FEDS have grants specifically dedicated to cold cases, but 282 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 2: there are certain philanthropic organizations or individuals that are willing 283 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 2: to donate money to assist investigations. And that has really 284 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 2: taken off in the last decade in terms of people 285 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: willing to put their own money without any recognition to 286 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 2: help somebody work a case, to try to solve a case. 287 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: And some departments that's the only way that they would 288 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 2: be able to get some of these older cases investigated. 289 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: Will you give me a rundown? I'm just curious how 290 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: much does it cost to run a sample against a 291 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: suspect or something like at a private lab? Like, what's 292 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: the fastest you could do for the most amount of money? 293 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: Could you get results back? And would it be a 294 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: private lab or would it be a state lab or 295 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: what it could be? 296 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 3: All of it? 297 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 2: Okay, So well, DNA testing is very expensive, and that's 298 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: just in part to do to the scientific instrumentation is 299 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: expensive to purchase. Oftentimes labs after resort to grant funding 300 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 2: in order to buy these, you know, instruments that cost 301 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then the consumables are 302 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 2: very expensive, where now you're looking at five to ten 303 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,239 Speaker 2: thousand dollars for a DNA testing kit where you can 304 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 2: run one hundred samples, but a typical case with your 305 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 2: blanks and your quality controls, and you know, the various 306 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 2: samples that are are president a case. One hundred samples 307 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: may cover just a handful of cases. So you're looking 308 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 2: at five ten thousand dollars, you know, and then of 309 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 2: course paying the DNA outsts and everything else. You know, 310 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 2: typically for routine forensic testing, you're looking at several thousand 311 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 2: dollars per sample, and so that can add up very 312 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 2: very quickly, and if you're a small department, you don't 313 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: have the budget to especially if you are looking for 314 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 2: the needle in the haystack, you have a ton of evidence. 315 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 3: You don't know where the DNA is. 316 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 2: At a lot of people overlook the fact that finding 317 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: the DNA from the crime scene evidence is often the 318 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 2: most time consuming part. Modern DNA testing can go very quickly. 319 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 2: You can often once you find the DNA, get a 320 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,439 Speaker 2: DNA result within twenty four to forty eight hours. But 321 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 2: finding the DNA if you have a sexual assault that 322 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: occurred on a king sized bed and the sexual assault 323 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: kit is negative, but there may still be DNA evidence 324 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 2: from the offender on that king sized comfanter, on the 325 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 2: pellow cases, on the flat sheet, on the bottom sheet, 326 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 2: you know that takes a ton of time. And as 327 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 2: much as DNA testing has progressed and advanced over the decades, 328 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 2: the searching for and identifying locations on physical evidence that 329 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 2: contained DNA hasn't advanced. We're using the same methodologies today 330 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 2: that we're being used when I first started back in 331 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 2: the early nineties. You know, it's still very man hour 332 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 2: intensive when you have a lot of evidence. Now, in 333 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 2: this particular case, it's very focused, so they don't have 334 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: to spend a lot of time. They know where the 335 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: DNA evidence is. It's just now every time the technology improves, 336 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 2: it's revisiting this seman evidence found on Leanna's body or 337 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 2: on the towel. 338 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: Well, you know, this was two thousand and five when 339 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: these guys, these old retired g got together and started 340 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,959 Speaker 1: working on this case. And what they concentrate on is 341 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: not the advances in DNA with this case. First. What 342 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: they concentrate on more is a little bit of I 343 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: think criminal profiling. So, working together with another detective, an 344 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: active detective named Chad Rogers, this group starts to think 345 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: about who would have been based on the brutality of 346 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: Leanna's death and the sexual assault and kind of everything 347 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: that seemed to have happened. Is there anyone on their 348 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: radar from the nineteen seventies that might have done this? 349 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: Is there a California serial killer who came to mind 350 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: for any of these guys, And they start brainstorming and 351 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: they come up with somebody, and I wonder if you 352 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: I have heard of him, but not very much. His 353 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: name was Thor Christiansen. Have you heard of him? 354 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 3: No, I can't say that I have. He's a California 355 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 3: serial killer. 356 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: He's a Danish was Danish American. He was in Ila 357 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: Vista in Santa Barbara County. And this is in the seventies. 358 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: So again, Thor Christiansen. Have you not heard of him before? 359 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 3: I have not. 360 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: Let me show you a photo. He doesn't look like 361 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: he's not a Ted Kaczynski creepy looking. He is a 362 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 1: nondescript but very very blonde, tan looking man. And the 363 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: police start looking at what he did to his victims 364 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: and think that this sounds similar. So let me tell 365 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: you what happened here. His mo seems to fit what happened. 366 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: He would pick up female hitchhikers. He would drive them 367 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,719 Speaker 1: somewhere remote, he would shoot them in the temple with 368 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: a twenty two. Then he would sexually violate them and 369 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: leave their bodies behind. 370 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's enough overlap with what happened with Leon and Eric, 371 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 2: where at least from that perspective, he has to be eyeballed. 372 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 2: Can you place them in Lane County at the time 373 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: of Leon and Eric's homicides? 374 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: Yes? Okay, So they find out that Christiansen had been 375 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: in Eugene, twenty mile from where this little area is 376 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: in June of nineteen seventy seven, which is when Leanna 377 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: and Eric were murdered. So here is the problem with 378 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: Thor Christiansen, as a suspect now, which is they're investigating 379 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: this in two thousand and five. So he's dead and 380 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: they want to extract DNA so they can compare it 381 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: to the seminal fluid that was found at the scene 382 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: and on Leanna's body. But let me just give you 383 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: a quick little update on what had happened with him. 384 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: So he had killed four women and then a fifth 385 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: escaped with a bullet in her head and later was 386 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: able to identify him, and that's how he was caught. 387 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: He was killing people from nineteen seventy six until nineteen 388 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: seventy nine, and we know that Leanna and Eric were 389 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: killed in nineteen seventy seven. So right in the middle 390 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: he had entered a plea of not guilty by reason 391 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: of insanity. Eventually, Christiansen was found guilty of first degree 392 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: murder and he was eventually sentenced to life in a 393 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: man maximum security prison. The reason that he is not 394 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: useful as a suspect for them a live suspect is 395 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: that in nineteen eighty one, a year after he entered prison, 396 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: he was stabbed once in the chest while walking in 397 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: the exercise yard at Fulsome State prison, and they never 398 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: identified his killer. So the police say, this sounds like 399 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: something very similar, except I have to ask you this, Paul. 400 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: Upon looking this up, I realized that every single woman 401 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: he either killed or attacked looked pretty much exactly the 402 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: same same build, slender but long, straight hair, every single 403 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: one of them. And you saw the photo. Now Leanna 404 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: has short, blondish hair. Now does that matter? I mean, 405 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: what if he's really fixated on that woman. 406 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 3: Now it doesn't matter at all. 407 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 2: This is a common misperception that I believe kind of 408 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 2: came out of the Ted Bundy investigation, where everybody was 409 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 2: under the impression that Bundy was looking for, you know, 410 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 2: these brunette women, you know, hair parted in the middle, 411 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: and people got this idea that serial predators target. 412 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 3: A specific type of victim. 413 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 2: They may have preferences, but in my experience, that is 414 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 2: the oddity. Oftentimes serial predators are going after victims that 415 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 2: they can have access to, regardless of what they look like, 416 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 2: you know, what their ethnicity is. Many of the series 417 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 2: that I've looked at often have victims of varying ages, 418 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: of varying ethnicities, varying looks, you know, either skinny or heavier. 419 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 2: So most of these offenders it really is the opportunity 420 00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 2: that drives them to offend against that particular victim versus 421 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: seeking out a victim that has certain criteria that must 422 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 2: be met. 423 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we have talked about that that this could 424 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: be just a that it seems likely that this is 425 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: just a crime of opportunity for whoever did this, and 426 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: they are thinking it's thora Christiansen at this point, but 427 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: because he's not around anymore, they don't have access to 428 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: his DNA for comparison. So what they do is the 429 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: cold case team eventually in twenty eighteen. So this team 430 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: was formed in two thousand and five, so thirteen years later, 431 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: they connect with tell me if you know these guys, 432 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: Parabon Nano Labs. Have you heard of them before. 433 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 3: I'm very familiar with Parabon. 434 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: Okay, So Parabon is in Virginia and they specialize in 435 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: DNA centric therapeutic and forensic services, and one of those 436 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: services is DNA phenotyping, and that's what the investigators are 437 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,719 Speaker 1: very excited about. So, without geeking out too much like 438 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: you were prone to do in a lovely way of polholes, 439 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: give us the very quick little summary to remind everybody 440 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: I know We've heard this before, but exactly what is 441 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: that when we say, you know, DNA analysis and it 442 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: feels like a big umbrella. Is DNA phenotyping different than 443 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: what they do on CSI when they're trying to catch 444 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: the bad guy? 445 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, DNA phenotyping. Phenotype is the physical expression 446 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 2: of your genetic information. Typically, what Parabond was doing is 447 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 2: taking the DNA sample that an unknown offender left behind 448 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 2: at a crime scene, like in this case with Leon 449 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 2: and Eric the Semen, and running a specific type of 450 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 2: DNA test It's this snip test, single nucleotipe polymorphism, and 451 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 2: then from there they can extrapolate the likely ancestry type 452 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: of information about this unknown individual. And then Parabond's claim 453 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 2: to fame back during this timeframe was what they called 454 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 2: their snapshot, and so they have this propriet terry process 455 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 2: where they take these snips that they've generated from the 456 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 2: Semen evidence and they do a rendering of the facial 457 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 2: characteristics of the person. This has been something that they've 458 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 2: had some success with, and then of course there's also 459 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 2: been some DNA based facial composits that don't look like 460 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 2: the person that ultimately is caught it's very much a technology, 461 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 2: especially in twenty eighteen that was in the maturing stages. 462 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: So let me show you this. This is Thor. I 463 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: already showed you Thor. So this is Thor, and this 464 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: is what they came up with. So here is their 465 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: proprietary snapshot. Looks just like him, I think, I need 466 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: doesn't that look just like him? 467 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean it most certainly does. 468 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 2: Just on the surface, there's a remarkable similarity between this 469 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 2: paira bond snapshot composite and then the the photo of 470 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 2: Thor that you showed me. 471 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: So here, so you see they have it broken down 472 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: by skin color and eye color, and it tells you 473 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: the confidence percentage on the right hand side, not brown 474 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: or black. I mean it looks like ninety seven point 475 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: six percent confidence in him being a blonde. Then we 476 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: get down here, I mean this none of this looks 477 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: even remotely helpful. Mail, yes, unknown, age, body mass, unknown, 478 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: ancestry north and or you know, northeast European. So is 479 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: this going to be helpful? I guess it's more it 480 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: kind of bolsters their confidence in Thor and wants to 481 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: push them forward to you know, maybe eventually coming to 482 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: the conclusion that ancestry DNA is going to be helpful. 483 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And I guess when I think about 484 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 2: where these investigators are at in terms of pursuing snapshot. 485 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 2: You know, Thor was stabbed in prison and folsome in 486 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty one. However, even then we were collecting reference 487 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 2: standards from arrestees back in the day. 488 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 3: Did they not have a. 489 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 2: Biological DNA sample from Thor from back in the day. 490 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 2: And was Thor cremated or was he buried? 491 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: I would guess because I'm not reading anything about exhumation 492 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: of the body, there's none of that. Okay, maybe it'll 493 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: help you if I jump ahead a little bit. They're 494 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: convinced that they found this guy based on this snapshot, 495 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: but they of course want to confirm his involvement by 496 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: comparing a DNA sample to the physical evidence. But eventually 497 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: investigators are able to get a sample from Thor's brother's blood, 498 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: not from Thor, so I would assume probably cremated his 499 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: brother's blood. But this is interesting. It's given to them 500 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: by the medical examiner after his brother died. It was 501 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: not voluntarily given by the Christiansen family, so they checked 502 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: for a familial match with the crime scene evidence and 503 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: the there's no match, so it doesn't seem like this 504 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: is a thor crime. So what ends up happening is 505 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty the detectives reroute kind of their whole 506 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: investigation because there is all of this publicity around genetic 507 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: genealogy and how it was used to crack the Golden 508 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: State killer case. So I guess my point with bringing 509 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: that up was, was it twenty twenty where you actually 510 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: got national attention and all of a sudden it was like, 511 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: holy crap, this is available, and when all of law 512 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: enforcement lit up with this possibility even though you were 513 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: doing this in twenty eighteen, is that right? 514 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 2: Well, we arrested de Angelo April twenty fourth, twenty eighteen, 515 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 2: and within a few months it blew up that we 516 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 2: had used genealogy in order to identify him. And so 517 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: there are investigators that once that became very public, they 518 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 2: started pursuing that on their cases in twenty and eighteen. 519 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 2: It's been an evolution, you know, So it's not surprising 520 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 2: like in this particular case with Leon and Eric's team 521 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 2: of investigators that it took until twenty twenty for them 522 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,959 Speaker 2: to start pursuing genealogy that you know, it's it's something 523 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 2: as as law enforcement is learning about this tool, they'll 524 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 2: start implementing it when it works within their case, when 525 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 2: it works within their agency's philosophies or within their various jurisdictions. 526 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 2: Whether you know, there's maybe some I know across the nation, 527 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 2: there's some states that aren't as open to its use 528 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 2: on cases within those state boundaries as other states. So 529 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 2: you know, it is it's just it's an evolving thing. 530 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 2: But it sounds like in twenty twenty, this cold case 531 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: team decided to pursue genealogy in Leon and Eric's double homicide. 532 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: They do so, they decide to resubmit the broken bowl 533 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: DNA sample from Leana to Parabon Nanolabs for genealogical analysis. 534 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: So Parabon would what take the seminole fluid and then 535 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: they would submit it to the genealogy websites that are 536 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: open to that and is that and they would get 537 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: the results? Is that? What would happen? 538 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, because Parabon in twenty eighteen had done this 539 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 2: snapshot this facial composite, they already had the type of 540 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 2: DNA profile that could be easily converted to search select 541 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 2: genealogy databases, notably jedmatch for Parabond, as well as a 542 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 2: family tree DNA as the other DNA database that law 543 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 2: enforcement is permitted to search. So they would simply upload 544 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 2: that and then get a list of names of individuals 545 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 2: in that database that shared a percentage of their DNA 546 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 2: with whoever killed Leona and Eric. And now it's just 547 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 2: simple genealogy one oh one, building family trees using public 548 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: record information and identifying common ancestors of people within the database. 549 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 2: How are these people red And if you can find, oh, 550 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 2: these two people in the database that share DNA with 551 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 2: Leon and Eric's killer, well they have great great grandparents 552 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: that they share. Depending on the circumstances and how those 553 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 2: two people are related, theoretically Leon and Eric's killer also 554 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 2: has that same set of great great grandparents. And now 555 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 2: you just identify, through again straightforward public record information out 556 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: of doing genealogy research, all the descendants of those great 557 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 2: great grandparents, until you land into a potential suspect pool, 558 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 2: and now it's investigation one oh one. 559 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: Well, Paramond says, in this case, the suspect pool is 560 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: three brothers. It's not thor Christiansen. It is a family 561 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: called the Shroys, and they have close ties to Lane County. 562 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: One of the brothers actually still lives there. The other 563 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: two went to Mesa, Arizona. They start focusing on the 564 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: local Shroy brother They tail them for a while and 565 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: then they were tree eve one of his discarded cigarette 566 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: butts and compares it to their DNA sample from the 567 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 1: murder scene. Not a perfect match, but it does help 568 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 1: solidify that the crime scene DNA does belong to someone 569 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: in that family. The old cigarette butt, I mean, is 570 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,399 Speaker 1: that reliable as long as you actually see where that 571 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: cigarette butt goes? 572 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely. 573 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 2: This is a common thing getting a surreptitious sample from 574 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 2: a suspect, and it does require it's very man hour intensive. 575 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 2: It requires following that person around and seeing when they 576 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 2: discard in the public domain a sample of their DNA. 577 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 3: And in most states this is a process that's legal. 578 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 2: I know there's a few states that it's now deemed 579 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 2: problematic from a legal standpoint within that state, but this 580 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 2: is a common practice and the preference is always something 581 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 2: you can on view. You know, you see the Starbucks 582 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 2: cup being discarded, and you go in and that's the 583 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 2: only Starbucks cup in that trash can, then you have 584 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 2: confidence that it came. 585 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 3: From that person. 586 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 2: Secondarily, it's when people put their trash out into public 587 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 2: domain and they pushed the trash can off of what's 588 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 2: called the curtilage. It's outside the individual's personal property. They 589 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,879 Speaker 2: put it on public property. You're now law enforcement. It's 590 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 2: now anybody could go into that trash. You know, a 591 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 2: law enforcement can go in there, but you could have 592 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 2: co mingled items containing DNA from anybody within that residence. 593 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 3: But it's still if. 594 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 2: You get a DNA sample from this discarded trash that 595 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 2: matches your crime scene evidence, that still gives you probable 596 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 2: cause in order to go and get a search warrant 597 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 2: and get a direct sample from a person the cigarette. 598 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 2: But absolutely, and so now obviously the at least at 599 00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 2: the time that they do this surreptitious collection. This one 600 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 2: brothers who's still in Oregon. He doesn't match, but he 601 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 2: obviously is a I'm assuming a sibling. He shares enough 602 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 2: DNA with the crime scene evidence that they Okay, well, 603 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 2: we got two other brothers that we need to investigate. 604 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: Correct. They've got two other ones, Daniel and Ronald. They 605 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: rule out Daniel, who is the youngest of the three 606 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: because he was in the Navy perfect and he was 607 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: not around. So now you've got Ronald Shroy and they 608 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: start looking into who he was, and he was at 609 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: the time of these murders. He was a twenty three 610 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: year old resident of Lane County and now he is 611 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: in twenty one, sixty seven years old by the time 612 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: this really comes up, so you know, we're talking about 613 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: what is a quick math. Forty four years later, they 614 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: look at his rap sheet and this isn't probably going 615 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 1: to surprise you at all. There was a sexual assault 616 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: on a Colorado woman in his past, so you know, 617 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: they really start looking at him, and they have a 618 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: photo and before we get to the DNA, can I 619 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: show you the photo right next to the I cut 620 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: it out, do I know? So is this who is 621 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 1: this going to look like? Is this gonna be this 622 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: Nordic looking guy? I don't know. It's a big mystery. 623 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: I've seen this before, you know, that kind of technology 624 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: just on shows. I mean, I've never been involved with it. 625 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: But this is Ronald pretty good. I think he and 626 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: Thorn look alike. 627 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 2: There is some overlap, but knowing how Parabond does their 628 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,399 Speaker 2: composites because what they do is they take the sort 629 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 2: of an average face for somebody of a certain ancestry, 630 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 2: and then they modify that face based on the DNA 631 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 2: phenotype evidence that they get. 632 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 3: I can't say that Ronald and this composite. 633 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 2: You know that by looking at this composite, I'd be 634 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 2: able to pick Ronald out as oh, yeah, he's a 635 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,359 Speaker 2: perfect match. But I think one of the things that 636 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 2: is being illustrated. You know, we talked about Thorn and 637 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 2: the mo overlap that Thor had with how Leanno was 638 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 2: killed sexually assaulted in the use of A twenty two, 639 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 2: and that Thor had these phenotype characteristics, but Thor isn't 640 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 2: the killer. This really underscores how you can have this 641 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 2: coincidental aspect. When I'm investigating this like Golden State Killer 642 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 2: or Zodiac, these huge cases, you run into these types 643 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 2: of coincidences where you think, oh, this has got to 644 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 2: be the guy, and then the DNA shows it's not 645 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:39,280 Speaker 2: the guy. And so that's what's happening here is that 646 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 2: you know, you haven't told me yet, but I'm going 647 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 2: to assume that when they get a surreptitious sample from Ronald, 648 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 2: it's matching the Seman evidence found on Leanna's body and 649 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 2: on the towel that was found on the picnic table. 650 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: Well, let me give you more information. This does not 651 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,399 Speaker 1: go the way I thought it was going to go. 652 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 3: Oh jeez, I know. 653 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: So they still don't have Ronald's DNA, so they start 654 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: to prepare a case to present to the grand jury 655 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: and start mulling over how they're going to be able 656 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: to get a DNA sample from Ronald to confirm the 657 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: suspicions I had wondered, isn't there enough evidence at this point? 658 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: But it doesn't sound like the DA is convinced yet. 659 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 1: So they are not able to get DNA from him 660 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: just yet. 661 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 2: And I do want to address that because that's that's 662 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 2: such an important thing. Pair bond and it was it 663 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,320 Speaker 2: would have been Ccmore and her team were the ones 664 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,360 Speaker 2: that would have done the genealogy. And so they've focused 665 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 2: in on these three brothers, right, and there seems to 666 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 2: be you know, you got one brother who's living in 667 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 2: Lane County, this other brother who used to be in 668 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 2: Lane County at the time of the double homicide and 669 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 2: has sexual assault. But in no way, shape or form 670 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 2: are you at a level of affecting an arrest you know, 671 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 2: you do not have probable cause. Genealogy does not give 672 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,879 Speaker 2: you probable cause. It just gives you a lead. An 673 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 2: arrest should never be made based on genealogy by itself. 674 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 3: You need to get a. 675 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 2: Direct sample from Ronald and even though he's living out 676 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 2: a state, he's an Arizona. Now, this is when you, 677 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,800 Speaker 2: as an investigator, you reach out to authorities out there 678 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 2: or you work with the FEDS, and you get resources 679 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,760 Speaker 2: in order to get that surreptitious sample. There is enough 680 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 2: information based on the genealogy tool that it is worth 681 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 2: the effort to get that direct sample to see is 682 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 2: he truly the source of the semen at the crime 683 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 2: scene from nineteen seventy seven? And if he's not, then 684 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 2: who else could it be? Are you closer in your investigation? 685 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 2: So that's the stage that they're at. I'm surprised that 686 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 2: they're taking it to a grand jury, at least from 687 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 2: the bit of information you've told me at we're not 688 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 2: at a stage to seek an indictment at all. You know, 689 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 2: to me, it's Psychoh no, there still needs to be 690 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 2: some footwork done in order to close this lead out. 691 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 2: Either he's the guy or he's not the guy. And 692 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 2: if he's not the guy, then who is it. 693 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,399 Speaker 1: Well, remember I told you things take a real left 694 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: turn here, and here's the left turn. While they're trying 695 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: to sort this out and get things together and get 696 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,720 Speaker 1: ready to make a big move on Ronald, Ronald, because 697 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: he's obviously a jerk, gets into a big fight in 698 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: February of twenty twenty one with his brother Daniel, the 699 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: one who is in the Navy. It's a very physical fight. 700 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,280 Speaker 1: The police are called and this is I believe, in Arizona. 701 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: We don't know what this fight is about, but it's 702 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: supposedly unrelated to Leanna and Eric's case. It's serious enough 703 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: that Daniel is injured. It's involving firearms. The detectives are excited. 704 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: They've been dealing with it. Sounds like months of red 705 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 1: tape to try to get this done. The police drive out. 706 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,160 Speaker 1: They're excited that they can get Ronald, even though it's 707 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: not going to be for the double murder. But they 708 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 1: get to get their hands on him. But as the 709 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,760 Speaker 1: officers are en rout before they get there, Ronald turns 710 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: the gun on himself and dies by suicide. 711 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, but now you have a source of DNA. 712 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 1: Well, but justice thwarted. Yes, okay, you want me to 713 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: ruin it. Yes they have a DNA. Yes, it's a 714 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: perfect it's a perfect match. Everybody knows that's what was 715 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: going to happen. Yes, they get the DNA and it's 716 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,439 Speaker 1: a perfect match with what happened at the Broken Bowl. 717 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: But that bastard got to go out on his own terms, 718 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: you know, after all of this, after all of this. 719 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 2: That is frustrating for sure, you know, on one hand, 720 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 2: and then this is what I always say. You know, 721 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 2: too many people throw around the term closure when it 722 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 2: comes to a case being solved and how the family 723 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,120 Speaker 2: feels about it. Families don't get closure, you know, getting 724 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 2: they get an answer, but getting them an answer does 725 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 2: not bring their loved ones back. 726 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:43,720 Speaker 3: Here. 727 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 2: The family's got an answer, it's Ronald, But they're not 728 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,439 Speaker 2: getting justice, you know, And that's that's really the frustrating part, 729 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,240 Speaker 2: because of course, they want to have their day in court. 730 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 2: They want to see him punished for the crimes. He 731 00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,799 Speaker 2: stole the lives of these two teenagers, and they want 732 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 2: to have that time to basically confront him and tell 733 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 2: him what he did and how that impacted their lives 734 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,839 Speaker 2: and how they you know, he prevented Leon and Eric 735 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 2: from having their lives, you know, and all the Christmases 736 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 2: and the birthdays and getting married and having kids and 737 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 2: all that. 738 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 3: So that that is very frustrating, I know. 739 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:30,279 Speaker 1: And here's something that is just painted with irony all over. 740 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: Listen to this. Daniel the brother says, my brother was awful. 741 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,399 Speaker 1: He was really violent, he was abusive. I didn't know that, 742 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, he was connected to any homicide. But come 743 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: to think of it, he says he and his brother 744 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 1: used to love watching true crime shows together, which of 745 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 1: course meant that Ronald knew about advancements in DNA. And 746 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: then Daniel says, this one time he and Ronald were 747 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: sitting there watching TV. This is a quote, and one 748 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 1: of those ancestry DNA commercials comes on and he said, 749 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: I mentioned to ron hey, I might want to do that. 750 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 1: And he said, well, he about hopped out of his 751 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: seat and blew his top and he said, so, yeah, 752 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 1: I didn't do it. There you go, and that is 753 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,919 Speaker 1: what ended up getting him. Now. I don't know if 754 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: Ronald knew that the police were onto him, that they 755 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: were pursuing him. I would assume he must have. If 756 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: they're forming a grand jury. But I don't know, We 757 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: don't know what Ronald knew. You don't think he knew anything. 758 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,799 Speaker 2: No, if the investigation was conducted right, he would not 759 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 2: have a clue. You know that this would all be 760 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 2: done covertly. Even you know, presented the case in front 761 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,360 Speaker 2: of a grand jury, you know, that's not something that 762 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,800 Speaker 2: would be divulged to the suspect. You know, in all likelihood, 763 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 2: Ronald knew that he left his seamen at this double homicide. 764 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,680 Speaker 2: And now he's seeing these advances in DNA technology and 765 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 2: and this is the beauty of the genealogy tool. Is 766 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,080 Speaker 2: I mentioned that FBI codis was predicated on the repeat offender. 767 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 2: And even like Golden State killer DiAngelo, you know, he 768 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,120 Speaker 2: knew he left his seamen all over the state of California. 769 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 2: He could not risk being caught for committing another crime 770 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 2: and then having his DNA matched to that that's in 771 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:27,279 Speaker 2: the database. So DiAngelo had control. You know, He's going, Okay, 772 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 2: I'm just going to make sure I'll mind my p's 773 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,839 Speaker 2: and q's and I'm not going to get sampled. Now, 774 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 2: the genealogy tool, even if an offender is going, well, 775 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 2: I'm not going to get caught. I'm going to control 776 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 2: who has access to my DNA, but they can't control 777 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 2: their third cousins. And so now you have a bunch 778 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:45,720 Speaker 2: of these offenders who. 779 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: Are paranoid, yeah, and should be. 780 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,840 Speaker 2: At any moment law enforcement can be knocking on their door. 781 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 2: And I love that they now are spooked. And I 782 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 2: think Ronald, once he got into the serious fight with 783 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:03,439 Speaker 2: his brother and now law enforcement's responding, he knows, well, 784 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,479 Speaker 2: I'm going to be arrested, I'm going to be having 785 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,480 Speaker 2: a DNA sample collected, and I'm going to be tied 786 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 2: to Leona and Eric's murder, and he decided to take 787 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,279 Speaker 2: his life. That's what I believe likely happened. 788 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 3: In this case. 789 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 1: I think so, so maybe that is some sort of justice, 790 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 1: you know, And honestly, I wonder if there's any thought 791 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,879 Speaker 1: that the families would be spared a trial. Sometimes they 792 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,400 Speaker 1: want to trial, sometimes they don't. 793 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,840 Speaker 2: You know, each of these families and each member of 794 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,400 Speaker 2: the family have their own personal thoughts on that, and 795 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 2: there's no right or wrong thought. It's a personal decision. 796 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 2: And what I have seen, like once we caught the 797 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,759 Speaker 2: Angel and Golden State killer. You know, some of these 798 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 2: victims were re traumatized because now they know who their 799 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 2: attacker was, or they know who killed their loved one, 800 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,200 Speaker 2: and to go through the trial process. Criminal justice system 801 00:46:55,280 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 2: is not kind to victims or victims' families, and they 802 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 2: suffer during that process. You know, in some ways the 803 00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 2: family was spared having to go through this very frustrating 804 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:12,800 Speaker 2: and re traumatizing trial process, but again they were denied justice. 805 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:17,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, just to circle back on the trial part of that. 806 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:18,959 Speaker 1: You know what I was thinking when you were saying 807 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: that is that there was a woman that Ronald had 808 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 1: allegedly sexually assaulted. We're going to presume after he left Oregon. 809 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,439 Speaker 1: You then, if you are having a trial, however many 810 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 1: years later, you are also finding out all the things 811 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,719 Speaker 1: that happened after what happened to your family member or you, 812 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,520 Speaker 1: and my goodness, to have that what if game in 813 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,800 Speaker 1: your head has to be so incredibly painful for survivors. 814 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,239 Speaker 1: You know, maybe having survivors built all of that. So 815 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,799 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that this was a good ending, but 816 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,040 Speaker 1: I'm saying that he died scared, which is exactly the 817 00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:58,759 Speaker 1: way he should have died, because you know, those two 818 00:47:58,800 --> 00:47:59,600 Speaker 1: kids died scared. 819 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:00,640 Speaker 3: Also no, for. 820 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,000 Speaker 2: Sure the family did get an answer, it was four decades, 821 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,719 Speaker 2: four plus decades later. But this is what we are 822 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 2: seeing now with this genealogy tool. You know, there are 823 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:16,800 Speaker 2: these cases that utilizing the previous DNA technologies and databases 824 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 2: would never have been solved. Now that genealogy has come along, 825 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,760 Speaker 2: we are seeing hundreds of these types of cases being solved. 826 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:28,399 Speaker 2: And it's great and I hope it continues and we'll 827 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,359 Speaker 2: get more families answers and we will make the public safer. 828 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,640 Speaker 1: As do I. Well, this is a good case, thank you, Paul, 829 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,120 Speaker 1: and I will bring you on next week that I 830 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:43,760 Speaker 1: am fairly certain has no DNA evidence, probably no fingerprints, 831 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,080 Speaker 1: maybe no even composite sketch let alone. 832 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:57,520 Speaker 3: Wow. Okay, well I'm looking forward to it. Seeya, all right, bye. 833 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,440 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right product for our sources 834 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,960 Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried 835 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,640 Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 836 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,120 Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson. 837 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,680 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 838 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,239 Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 839 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,440 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa. 840 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 2: Lilac, Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and 841 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:24,920 Speaker 2: Danielle Kramer. 842 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 843 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:29,440 Speaker 1: Bary Bones. 844 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,440 Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a 845 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,800 Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode 846 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,680 Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now 847 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:41,279 Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's 848 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,359 Speaker 1: cold cases, is also available now