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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and it's me Katie Couric. You know if

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Speaker 2: you've been following me on social media. You know, I'd

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Speaker 2: love to cook or at least try, especially alongside some

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Speaker 2: of my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen,

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Speaker 2: kitchen mustaves. Just sign up at Katiecuric dot com slash

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Speaker 2: U R I C dot com slash good Taste. I

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Speaker 2: promise your taste buds will be happy you did.

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Speaker 3: This is Michael Rappaport and I have been professionally podcasting

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Speaker 3: for ten years. The podcast game has changed so much.

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Speaker 3: And if you're looking for the most disruptive podcast in

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Speaker 3: the world, that subscribe to the im Rapaport Stereo podcast.

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Speaker 3: Today we're talking sports, politics, pop culture, entertainment, in anything

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Speaker 3: that catches my attention. Listen to the im Rappaport Stereo

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Speaker 3: podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 3: get your podcasts.

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Speaker 4: Hey, it's Horehand Daniel here and we want to tell

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Speaker 4: you about our new book.

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Speaker 1: It's called Frequently Asked Questions about the Universe.

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Speaker 4: Because you have questions about the universe, and so we

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Speaker 4: decided to write a book all about them.

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Speaker 1: We talk about your questions, we give some answers, we

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Speaker 1: make a bunch of silly.

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Speaker 4: Jokes as usual, and we tackle all kinds of questions,

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Speaker 4: including what happens if I fall into a black hole?

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Speaker 1: Or is there another version of you out there that's right?

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Speaker 1: Like usual, we tackle the deepest, darkest, biggest, craziest questions

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Speaker 1: about this incredible cosmos.

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Speaker 4: So if you want to support the podcast, please get

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Speaker 4: the book and get a copy of not just for yourself,

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Speaker 4: but you know, for your nieces and nephews, cousins, friends, parents, dogs, hamsters, and.

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Speaker 1: For the aliens. So get your copy of Frequently Asked

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Speaker 1: Questions about the Universe is available for pre order now,

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Speaker 1: coming out November two. You can find more details at

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Speaker 1: the book's website, universe faq dot com. Thanks for your support.

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Speaker 4: And if you have a hamster that can read, please

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Speaker 4: let us know. We'd love to have them on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: We all know that quantum mechanics can't be quite right.

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Speaker 1: I'm not talking about the counterintuitive, probabilistic aspects of it

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Speaker 1: that have forced us to accept that the world we

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Speaker 1: live in is fundamentally weirder than we have ever imagined.

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Speaker 1: Probabilities and correlations and uncertainty is no Those bits are

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Speaker 1: probably right, But there's a problem at the heart of

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics, one that has baffled physicists and philosophers for

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Speaker 1: nearly one hundred years, and that may take another hundred

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Speaker 1: years to solve. But some recent ideas may be showing

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Speaker 1: us a path forward, even if it's a stranger path

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Speaker 1: than we imagined. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle of

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Speaker 1: physicists and a professor at UC Irvine, and I'm still

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Speaker 1: confused by quantum mechanics. Confused but not frustrated, you might say,

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Speaker 1: I'm deliciously confused. What can be more delightful than grappling

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Speaker 1: with the deep mysteries of the nature of reality, seeing

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Speaker 1: the truth written down in cold, black and white mathematical equations,

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Speaker 1: and struggling to gain an intuition to incorporate those alien

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Speaker 1: concepts into our human brains. After all, that is the

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Speaker 1: deepest goal of physics, and that's the goal of our podcast,

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Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio

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Speaker 1: in which we tackle the biggest and hardest and nastiest

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Speaker 1: and funnest of questions of the universe, the ones that

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Speaker 1: make your brains twist, the ones that slip away from

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Speaker 1: you just as you thought you had figured them out,

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Speaker 1: ones that might elude humanity for centuries or forever. We

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Speaker 1: don't shy away from any questions on the podcast, but

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Speaker 1: we seek to approach them and explain our knowledge and

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Speaker 1: our ignorance to you. My friend and co host Jorge

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Speaker 1: is on a break, but I have a special treat

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Speaker 1: for you. We are very lucky to have as a

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Speaker 1: guest one of my favorite physicists, one of my favorite writers,

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Speaker 1: and one of my favorite writers about physics, truly a

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Speaker 1: poet of science communication. Today we'll be talking to Carlo

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Speaker 1: Rovelli about some of the problems at the heart of

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics and explaining a lesser known but absolutely fascinating

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Speaker 1: alternative version of quantum mechanics. So today on the podcast

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Speaker 1: we'll be answering the question what is relational quantum mechanics?

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Speaker 1: So it's my great pleasure today to introduce Professor Carlo Rovelli.

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Speaker 1: He's a professor of physics in Marseille and he cut

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Speaker 1: his teeth and made his name for himself developing of

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Speaker 1: quantum gravity, mostly loop quantum gravity, if I understand correctly.

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Speaker 1: He also became a household name as the author of

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Speaker 1: the book Seven Brief Lessons on Physics, which sold more

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Speaker 1: than a million copies into was translated into forty one languages.

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Speaker 1: I've read it and enjoyed it immensely and heartily recommended

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Speaker 1: to you. Today, Professor Ravelli is here to talk to

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Speaker 1: us about his new book, Hell Go Land and a

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Speaker 1: fascinating alternative take on the measurement problem in quantum mechanics.

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Speaker 1: Professor Velli, Welcome to the podcast, and thank you for

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Speaker 1: joining us.

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Speaker 5: Thank you very much, Dadiel. It's a pleasure in honor

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Speaker 5: of being here.

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Speaker 1: Wonderful. Well, I always love talking about quantum mechanics and

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Speaker 1: puzzling over it with other people. I feel like every

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Speaker 1: time I talk about quantum mechanics with somebody else, I

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Speaker 1: think of a new question I've never thought of before,

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Speaker 1: or a new angle on it, or a new mystery frankly,

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Speaker 1: like a new corner of my mind that I haven't

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Speaker 1: ever really examined, and I get confused. And so it's

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Speaker 1: always fun to figure things outside of on the fly.

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Speaker 1: So today we wanted to talk about your new book

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Speaker 1: and Hell Go Land, And the book essentially lays out

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Speaker 1: for a lay audience this idea of relational quantum mechanics,

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Speaker 1: sort of a new interpretation on quantum mechanics. And the

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Speaker 1: first question for you I have is if you could

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Speaker 1: describe for us what is the problem that relational quantum

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Speaker 1: mechanics solves, Like, why do we need another quantum mechanics interpretation?

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Speaker 1: What is it at the heart of reditional quantm mechanics

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Speaker 1: is trying to do One of.

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Speaker 5: The difficulties of the problem of quantum mechanics is to

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Speaker 5: say exactly what the problem is. So quantum mechanics, on

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Speaker 5: the one hand, it's extraordinarily successful. It is used in

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Speaker 5: a lot of our technology, is used a lot of

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Speaker 5: our understanding of the world. We explained with quantum mechanics,

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Speaker 5: the basic of chemistry, basic of astrophysics, all sorts of stuff,

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Speaker 5: and it works. It works fantastically. On the other hand,

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Speaker 5: there is a persisting mysterious aspect about this theory. It's

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Speaker 5: a theory that it's not formulated differently than previous basic

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Speaker 5: physical theories, and these difference puzzles everybody and This is

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Speaker 5: where the problems can in because the scientists disagree about

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Speaker 5: how to think about quantum mechanics. If you if you

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Speaker 5: want to, if you go to a physicist conference and

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Speaker 5: you want to really start a furious discussion, just let

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Speaker 5: drop the question at the banquet say oh, by the way,

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Speaker 5: what do you think quantum mechanics? And ten minutes later

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Speaker 5: everybody is screaming against everybody.

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Speaker 1: But is this a conference of philosophers or physicists in

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Speaker 1: your mind?

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Speaker 5: No, no physicist huicism, including the ones to say there

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Speaker 5: is no problem at all, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 5: And that they say, of course there is a problem.

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Speaker 5: You know, this is where is the problem? I mean,

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Speaker 5: how how can we characterize the problem? Well, sort of

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Speaker 5: all physical theories from say Newton, or maybe even before

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Speaker 5: from the card or even from Aristotle all the way

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Speaker 5: to Maxwell and to Einstein, special activity, general activity, lectodynamics.

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Speaker 5: The series describes some systems and the systems some variables.

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Speaker 5: I don't know pendulum, it's a physical object and the

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Speaker 5: variable is the angle with the vertical And to tell

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Speaker 5: you how this variable is and evolves given something that

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Speaker 5: you know at the beginning, and you know where it is.

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Speaker 5: You know the velocity, and then you have any questions

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Speaker 5: that tell you how the variable changes continuously in time. So,

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Speaker 5: of course this allows us to make predictions because we

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Speaker 5: can measure the position the velocity, then close our eyes,

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Speaker 5: wait two seconds, open again, and the new position ner

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Speaker 5: velocity can be predicted by the theory because the cery

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Speaker 5: tell us exactly how it moves in time. So that's

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Speaker 5: how Newton physics works, or Maxwell theory works. Of Ilin

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Speaker 5: theory works well Quartamacaly, it does not work this way,

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Speaker 5: that's the point. It works in a completely different manner.

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Speaker 5: It does not tell us what happens at the pendulum

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Speaker 5: while he's moving. It only tells us the prediction without

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Speaker 5: saying what is in between. And if you try to

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Speaker 5: reconstruct what this is in between, So the data that

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Speaker 5: you know, the addiction that you make, all devils go loose. Namely,

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Speaker 5: every strange things happen and people disagree about what happened

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Speaker 5: in between.

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Speaker 1: In between you mean that moment when you close your

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Speaker 1: eyes and you're trying to use physics to predict the

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Speaker 1: future exactly.

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Speaker 5: So typically you think about quantum mechanics in this way.

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Speaker 5: I mean, you make a measurement that's a language which

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Speaker 5: is used. The observer makes a measurement and you make

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Speaker 5: a prediction of what's going to happen at the next

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Speaker 5: measurement sometime later, and the prediction is bingal. It works,

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Speaker 5: I mean, it tells us exactly what we see, but

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Speaker 5: if you ask what happened in between, it's confusing, and

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Speaker 5: the reason is confusing. One way of presenting it, one

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Speaker 5: of the many ways of presenting it is the following.

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Speaker 5: If you have a particle, an electron or a little

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Speaker 5: ball for that, or an atom or a molecule, and

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Speaker 5: you throw it in some way, then quantum mechanics tell

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Speaker 5: you where it's going to be, or at least pability

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Speaker 5: distlution of what's going to be. Because if the prediction

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Speaker 5: ofquant the mechanics are probabilistics are not not exactly. That's

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Speaker 5: one of the characters is still quantum mechanics, but it's

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Speaker 5: telling me the sort of probility is going to be here,

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Speaker 5: that the probably going to be here, to probably going

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Speaker 5: to be here. Then in between, what happens to the

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Speaker 5: mathematics is this particle opens up in a wave. It's everywhere,

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Speaker 5: and with this wave you compute to different probabilities. So

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Speaker 5: the particles at the same time many positions in the mathematics.

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Speaker 5: So some people say, okay, so the particle is in

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Speaker 5: many it's a wave, it's all over. But then when

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Speaker 5: you look at the particle, it's not a wave. It's

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Speaker 5: in a simile position. So other people say, oh, come on,

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Speaker 5: I mean, we look at the particle. It's always a particle.

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Speaker 5: When we look where it is, it is always in

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Speaker 5: one point. But when you compute how it goes from

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Speaker 5: here to here, it's not in one point. And if

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Speaker 5: you assume that it is in one point, you're led

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Speaker 5: to make some kind of mistakes and things like that.

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Speaker 1: So it's capable of making predictions, concrete predictions, or you

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Speaker 1: can compare to measurements, but to make those predictions you

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Speaker 1: need this intermediate step, which seem sort of nonsensical and

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Speaker 1: conflicts with our sense of like what is real in

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Speaker 1: the universe around us.

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Speaker 5: Exactly so, But the real problem, it's the thing people

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Speaker 5: are debating with, is what does it mean that the

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Speaker 5: theory describe what we measure. That's why it's called the

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Speaker 5: measurement problem. In a sense, it's like when we measure

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Speaker 5: something special happen, but we are not special, right, We

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Speaker 5: are just you know, piece of the universe like any others.

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Speaker 5: So the standard formulation of quantum mechanics, the one you

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Speaker 5: read in textbooks, it's only in terms of the observer

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Speaker 5: and the measurement, which is fine as long as you

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Speaker 5: don't ask, what about the physics of observer? What about

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Speaker 5: the observer itself isn't to observe itself a quantum system,

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Speaker 5: so it should be described by quantum mechanics as well,

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Speaker 5: so it should also open up at like a wave.

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Speaker 5: But that's it, and that's where people start disagree. And

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Speaker 5: some physicists think, yes, we do our waves to multiple

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Speaker 5: copies of Daniel and me and and some versions of us,

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Speaker 5: some answers are given, is some other versions of different

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Speaker 5: answers given because we're a wave of different configurations of ourselves.

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Speaker 5: Other people think, no, come on, that's not a good

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Speaker 5: way of thinking about reality. And that's where the the

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Speaker 5: disagreement starts. So the disagreement is realized in a number

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Speaker 5: of so called interpretations of quantum mechanics. Ways to make

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Speaker 5: sense about this funny story about the observer and the

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Speaker 5: measurement and on the market, there are many, but maybe

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Speaker 5: three or four four or five which are dominant, and

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Speaker 5: many variants of these which pretty different from one another

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Speaker 5: and give a profoundly different picture of reality. And that's

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Speaker 5: the beauty of the story. It's not just a technical

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Speaker 5: thing about using the theory. In fact, it's not a

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Speaker 5: technical thing about using it. Everybody agrees on using the theory,

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Speaker 5: but everybody disagrees on if you want on what happens

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Speaker 5: between the measurements, that's what we're putting it.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's really fascinating that it's so important

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Speaker 1: to us to understand what happens when we're not looking right. Clearly,

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Speaker 1: physics it very important to predict what happens when we look,

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Speaker 1: because it's very practical. We need to know how transistors

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Speaker 1: work and whether our airplanes will fly. But when we're

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Speaker 1: not making measurements, where we're not looking, where we're not

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Speaker 1: watching the universe, we still want to know what is real,

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Speaker 1: what is going on. We want to have like a

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Speaker 1: model in our minds of how the universe works. Are

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Speaker 1: we still doing physics in that case? Is that philosophy

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Speaker 1: or do you think they're forever intertwined.

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Speaker 5: I think they're for every intertwined, and I think they

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Speaker 5: should be for ever intertwined, because it's precisely by asking

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Speaker 5: those kind of questions that in the past the physics

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Speaker 5: has made the big jumps. Let we make an example

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Speaker 5: of maybe two. One example is is the Earth the

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Speaker 5: center of the universe? This was a huge debate at

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Speaker 5: the time of between Copernicus and Newton. It's a center

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Speaker 5: of debate, and nobody could say that this was not

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Speaker 5: a scientific debate, because that's the debate that started that

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Speaker 5: allowed Newton to do Newton mechanics and allowed Galileo to

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Speaker 5: understand Galileo relativity, and its debate on on on which

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Speaker 5: Kepler built. Kepler was a strenuous defender of the idea

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Speaker 5: that the Earth is not the central the universe. The

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Speaker 5: universe is not the center going around the set. But

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Speaker 5: if you think for a moment, is this Earth is

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Speaker 5: a central unise? A scientific question in the sense of

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Speaker 5: something we can test them? Of course not. There's no

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Speaker 5: way of testing, there's no there's no operational meaning, there's

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Speaker 5: no measurement that can make that can distinguish if the

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Speaker 5: Earth is a central unise. So it's not, because you know,

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Speaker 5: I mean it can stay somewhere and see it moving

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Speaker 5: but what does it mean if I am moving, I

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Speaker 5: see I see the center moving. So it's really a

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Speaker 5: non empirical question, and yet it's a profoundly scientific question.

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Speaker 5: Why because it gives a different way depending if you

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Speaker 5: answer one way or the other. If you start by

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Speaker 5: thinking the Earth is the center, everything goes around, or

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Speaker 5: if you start by allowing the Earth to be one

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Speaker 5: of the things move, so you go to a completely

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Speaker 5: different way of conceptualizing reality, and one which worked very well,

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Speaker 5: the other was bad was or the good one. So

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Speaker 5: I think this is one of the aspects of science

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Speaker 5: which I think is often misunderstood. I would say science

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Speaker 5: is not just about you know Closi r Eide, Make

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Speaker 5: a model, make mathematics, make a measurement, make a prediction,

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Speaker 5: and that's it. Science is about understanding reality, meaning building

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Speaker 5: up a conceptual structure, the way of thinking reality. How

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Speaker 5: do you put things in cases. One way of putting

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Speaker 5: things in cases is in one case is the Earth

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Speaker 5: and in the other the celestial bodies, the Sun, the moon,

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Speaker 5: the planets, the stars, and then you throw that away.

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Speaker 5: That's not the right characterization. The right way is there

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Speaker 5: are stars, the planets, and then there is satellites to

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Speaker 5: do something different and that works really different, and boom,

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Speaker 5: we understand the universe better. So I think there are

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Speaker 5: questions which are not directly empirical but are scientific, and

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Speaker 5: I think the into petitional quantum mechanics should turn out

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Speaker 5: something like that. Namely, one way of thinking about this

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Speaker 5: story will turn out to be useful on the long run.

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Speaker 1: let's dig into the details of the different interpretations, just

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Speaker 1: to recap for our listeners, what exactly is the problem

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Speaker 1: that we're trying to solve here. The way I think

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Speaker 1: about it sometimes is that we have these particles and

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Speaker 1: our mathematical model of them is that they are probabilistic.

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Speaker 1: They can have the probability to be doing one thing

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Speaker 1: or another thing, but of course that's not what we measure.

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Speaker 1: When we measure something, it does either one thing or

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Speaker 1: the other. And the question is how do you go

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Speaker 1: from being probabilistic to being sort of classical? And you know,

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Speaker 1: it seems arbitrary to say I'm making a measurement now

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Speaker 1: or I'm not making a measurement, And you can ask

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Speaker 1: questions like, well, when it interacts with other particles, why

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Speaker 1: isn't that a measurement? Or if I'm making a measurement

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Speaker 1: and I'm using a stick, then you know, the tip

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Speaker 1: of that stick is made of quant mechanical particles, So

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Speaker 1: why doesn't it just interact with my stick the way

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Speaker 1: it interacts with other quant mechanical particles and maintain it's

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Speaker 1: probabilistic nature. And you know, people think about like do

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Speaker 1: you have to have a conscious observer involved? But there's

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Speaker 1: all sorts of fun things that you can dig into

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Speaker 1: there and out of fun conversation with the author of

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Speaker 1: what is real, which people can also dig into if

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Speaker 1: they're interested in more details on what the measurement problem

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Speaker 1: is and the classical approach to people take this Copenhagen

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Speaker 1: interpretation seems sort of arbitrary. It says that you know,

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Speaker 1: the wave function moves by the Shortener equation and it's

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Speaker 1: smooth and continuous, and then boom, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: when there's a measurement, everything collapses. But it doesn't tell

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Speaker 1: you what a measurement is, right, And so there's this

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Speaker 1: deep question still the heart of the most common interpretation

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Speaker 1: and listening to the podcast can also check out our

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Speaker 1: episodes on the Many Worlds interpretation. But today I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about your idea or this concept of relational

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics. So how does relational quantum mechanics deal with

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Speaker 1: the measurement problem in a way that's different from this arbitrary,

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Speaker 1: obviously unworkable approach of the Copenhagen interpretation.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, very good, and I think this is a nice

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Speaker 5: way of putting the question. Let's take a let's take

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Speaker 5: a concrete case, were simplest the quantum mechanical experiment and

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Speaker 5: measurement that we can make. We can take an atom,

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Speaker 5: a radioactive atom, right, so just a piece of a

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Speaker 5: block of radius uranium. It waited there and you put

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Speaker 5: around it's some detectors of radiation. You know, the guy

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Speaker 5: the detector that click when when a radiation arrives. The

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Speaker 5: wait for a while, and after a while one of

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Speaker 5: these clicks cling. Okay, and then you say, okay, the

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Speaker 5: atom has emitted a radiation and it has been detected

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Speaker 5: by these detectors. These are the fact. Now, how do

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Speaker 5: we describe these in the equations? What do we do?

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Speaker 5: When we do quantum mechanics, we pretend that this radiation

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Speaker 5: is some particles that are inside trapped inside the atoms,

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Speaker 5: and they have a wave that describes them. There's a

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Speaker 5: wave that the wave function describes them, and no other mathematics.

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Speaker 5: These waves leaks out from the atom or from the

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Speaker 5: nucleus of the atom slowly and continuously, and it's all

432
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 5: over so and slowly. Imagine that this this wave continuously

433
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 5: leaking out. So this is continuously wave that around, spherical

434
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 5: and go out. So each one of the detectors is

435
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 5: touched by these waves, goes on. Then at some point

436
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 5: them happen, as you say, something happens. We go from

437
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 5: this quantum wave to a classical factor, which is one

438
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 5: single detector that happens, and this is the measurement. Now,

439
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 5: different interpretations try to fill up the story in different ways.

440
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 5: Let me just compare to one or two interpretations. Why

441
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 5: is the many world interpretation that you mentioned, and the

442
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 5: other is the Kopanagen interpretation of dimension. The many world,

443
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 5: in a sense, is the most radical idea of taking

444
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 5: away very seriously. The Kopanagen interpretation is the one we

445
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 5: study at school, the one the teacher tell you and

446
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 5: tell you how to use. So the minimal interpretation says

447
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 5: that there's this wave that come out and you see

448
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 5: only one detector clicking. But why do you see one

449
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 5: detective clicking? Because in reality, you yourself are a wave. Okay,

450
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 5: so you, yourself are a superposition of different you, like

451
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 5: the particle in different positions, in a superposition different positions.

452
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 5: So it's not true that there is one detector that clicks.

453
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 5: All the detectors clicks, but you, yourself, interacting with these detectors,

454
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 5: is split up in one you that sees this detective clicking,

455
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 5: one you that sees that detective clicking, one you that's

456
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 5: is that the techno clippi, and so on. Okay, So

457
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 5: now you would imagine that the wave contains copies of you,

458
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 5: and the reason you've seen one and not the other

459
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 5: it is only because you happen to be one copy

460
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 5: of you and not the other copies of the other.

461
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 5: Now does this work? Yes, it works. Is it plausible? Well,

462
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 5: it sounds very implausible, extremely implausible. The problem is everything

463
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 5: you do with quant mechanics sounds implausible. So many people say, okay,

464
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 5: we have to accept this, that in reality we live

465
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 5: in immense waves, that the copies and copies of ourselves,

466
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 5: and that's the many world interpretations.

467
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: Can ask you a question actually about that many world interpretations,

468
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: there's something about that that's never set right with me.

469
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: But maybe it's very naive, and and that's this you

470
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: say that there are many, many copies of me. And

471
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: so it breaks the problem of why is this one

472
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: detector clicked by saying it's not just that one detector clicked,

473
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 1: all of them have clicked, just in other versions of

474
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: the universe. But that doesn't make all the versions of

475
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: the universe equal or on the same footing. Because I'm

476
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: in this one, you know, this is the one that

477
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: I feel is the truth that I'm making the measurement in.

478
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: And that's different from the other ones, because I'm not

479
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: in those other ones, and maybe there are other means

480
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: in the other ones, and let's say that they're you know,

481
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: who I actually am. But this is the one that

482
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: I'm experiencing, and so it still feels to me like

483
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,959
Speaker 1: it has a special place. Is that a naive concern

484
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: or is that something that you think many worlds can address.

485
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 5: It is a concern because of well, many words place

486
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 5: exactly on the fact that there is a contingency in

487
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 5: who you are, which is hard to make in either

488
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 5: informal or in words, and it is left a little

489
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 5: bit vague into that. So it is a concern that

490
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 5: some philosophers have a race about many wolves.

491
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: All right, Well, as long as philosophers agree with me,

492
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: then I'm assolid for that.

493
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 5: Okay. Yeah, but you know, you can always find a

494
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 5: philosopher that's.

495
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: Okay as a low bar apparently. All right, So that's

496
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: the many world's interpretation.

497
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 5: Let's go to the kopanagen, which is what you study

498
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 5: at school. Okay, community says, well, there are special things

499
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 5: which are observers, okay, which are classical, namely a big,

500
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 5: a big compared to the quantum phenomena it's when you

501
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 5: don't see quantum phenomena because they're too subtle for you.

502
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 5: They are not visible to you there because you're too

503
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 5: heavy to see quant phenomena. Have to isolate things. You

504
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 5: go to small things, so they are classical objects. There

505
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 5: are many, all the ones around us, and this is

506
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 5: a classical So forget quantum mechanics. About this. When a

507
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 5: quantum system interacts with a classical world, bingo, that's a measurement.

508
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 5: And this works in practice very well. That's what we

509
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 5: do in the laboratory. But in theory it obviously does

510
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 5: not work because what is a classical system? And we

511
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 5: I am many electrons and protons, and each one of

512
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 5: them it's a quantum particle, so each one has a wave,

513
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 5: so I have a big wave. I am a quantum

514
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 5: system in a sense. Copenhagen. It's works with an approximation

515
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 5: to say, well, imagine that your theory is wrong for

516
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 5: big things. Forget about it, and still use it for

517
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 5: small things. And you know as why. It appeals to

518
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 5: everybody who does not want to ask questions, and you can.

519
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 5: But if you don't ask questions, you don't get answers.

520
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 5: I mean those science scientists is about asking questions. A

521
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 5: lot of scientists who says, well, I don't want to

522
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 5: care about that. There were more in the past, in

523
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 5: the sixties and the seventies. In the eighties, I would

524
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 5: say the majority of physicists would have said, oh, come on,

525
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,239
Speaker 5: just use the theory. It works very well. Nowadays there

526
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 5: are less and less people who do that. So I

527
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 5: would say that large majority of people agree that there's

528
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 5: something to say better here. So let's come to relational

529
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 5: quantum mechanics. What does relational quantum mechanics says about that?

530
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 5: It says that all systems are quantum, and that's the

531
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 5: first assumption. Let's see that we're, as far as we know,

532
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 5: quantum mechanics the best people we have about the world.

533
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 5: So up to this confirm all systems aplentum.

534
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: So that's already in contradiction with Copenhagen interpretation that says

535
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: like I am classical and you are classical. It says

536
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: everything is made of quantum. Even classical objects are just

537
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: like massive quantum objects. This is just what quantum objects

538
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: look like when they're really big, exactly.

539
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 5: So therefore there is nothing which is an observer. But

540
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 5: by itself. There's nothing that separates an observer in the

541
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 5: sense of quantum mechanics from a piece of stone. Of course,

542
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 5: you know, there are the people who have eyes, their machines,

543
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 5: they're the things that store information, But that's irrelevant here.

544
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 5: The point is in relational quantum mechanics. That's a suggestion

545
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 5: of relig Quantum mechanics as a measurement happens in some

546
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 5: sense every time two systems interact. But the actual element

547
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 5: of reality which is realized in the interaction. So when

548
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 5: the detector clicks or the particle is here, is here

549
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 5: because I see here, the particle hits another particle, and

550
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 5: therefore it has a specific position that has to be

551
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 5: thought not as a property of the particle by itself,

552
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 5: but as a relational property of the particle and the

553
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 5: system it is interacting.

554
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: With in relation to the thing during the measurement.

555
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 5: Exactly in relation to the same during measure which it

556
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 5: can be anything. We can be another party in a sense.

557
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 5: So therefore, the central idea of religion wanted mechanics is

558
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 5: let's be radical in the following sense, we describe the

559
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 5: world in terms of systems, particle, electron, et cetera. And

560
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 5: these have the properties variables that describe them, but these

561
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 5: variables do not describe how the system is it interacts,

562
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 5: how the system interacts with something else.

563
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So, for example, we have a particle and it's

564
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: flying along and it has a certain wave function for

565
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: things it might do, and Copenhagen interpretation says it stays

566
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: probabilistic until something classical interacts with it. Relational quantum mechanics

567
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: says it can collapse when it interacts with anything, but

568
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: that collapse is different for depending on who is interacting

569
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: with it. So if it interacts with this particle, it

570
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: might collapse in this way. If it interacts with somebody else,

571
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: that might collapse in another way. In that sense, it's

572
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: also sort of like a branching of what reality is real,

573
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: because what is real now depends on who is doing

574
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: the measurement.

575
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 5: Is that right, That's exactly correct. So the so called

576
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 5: collapse of the way function is by itself something which

577
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 5: is a relative to the system against which the particle

578
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 5: is interacting, which doesn't need to be a macroscopical object,

579
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 5: doesn't need to be anything special, it's anything. But the

580
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 5: subtlety is the following I suppose the particle interact with

581
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 5: my machine in my detector, Okay, and I'm I'm not

582
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 5: a distance and the tooth is not interacting with me,

583
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 5: so with respect to me, there is no collapse happening.

584
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 5: So the way the particle and the machine are gonna

585
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 5: manifest themselves to me later on if they interact with

586
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 5: me is still computed with quantum mechanics. So if I

587
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 5: want to compute what happens with respect to me, I

588
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 5: still use the wave function of the particle and the

589
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 5: wave function of the machine, because the machine is quite mechanical.

590
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: I see. So for example, I'm here talking to you,

591
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: so I'm measuring you. I'm collapsing your wave function. But

592
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: our listeners have not yet heard this podcast, so from

593
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: their point of view, you and I are still in

594
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: some uncollapsed quantum state, and only when they hear this

595
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: does it collapse into an actual stream of words. So

596
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: for us it is collapsed, but for them it's not

597
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: yet collapsed exactly.

598
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 5: So I believe that this is coherent. This can be

599
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 5: made clearing by going into details. It offers a possible

600
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 5: solution of the puzzle quantum theory. This is a relation

601
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 5: interpetition it does require it has a cost. There's a

602
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 5: conceptal cost, because, as you said, a reality is a

603
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 5: little bit more subjective, no subjective relative. I'll come back

604
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 5: to the difference in subjective and relative. So it weakens

605
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 5: realism in a sense, but it's still a realistic interpretation.

606
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 5: So I think that this cost is more worthwhile paying

607
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 5: for being fruitful for the future of physics than imagining

608
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 5: that there are many copies of myself, more than not

609
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 5: asking the question. Then you come to this subtle them.

610
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 5: In your example, you talked about you and me and

611
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 5: the listeners all people. Okay, that's fine, but the key

612
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 5: intuition of relationship quite the mechanics is this has nothing

613
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 5: to do with people. That's the key point. And that's

614
00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 5: a big difference with respect also with Copenhagt, and in

615
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 5: a sense, right, this is nothing to do with subjectivity.

616
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 5: That to do the subject the fact if you and

617
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 5: I are subject of perceptions as you do.

618
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: You would also work if you and I were dogs

619
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: or bananas or particles, right, exactly the same mathematics.

620
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 5: World, exactly as I'm the safe story would work. And

621
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 5: to make an example of this, because I think that

622
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 5: you know relatives to observer observable are often misinterpreted as

623
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 5: subjective while it's just relational. For instance, there's a very

624
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 5: well known example of relational notion in physics, which students

625
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 5: struggle at the beginning when they encounter it the first time,

626
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 5: because it's very continuitive if you think at the beginning,

627
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 5: which is velocity. When we study Glean theory or Newton theory,

628
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 5: we learn that velocity is not absolute, velocity is relative.

629
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 5: So what is the velocity of the moon. Well, there

630
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 5: is a the loss of the moon we respect to

631
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 5: this Earth. The velocity of the moon we respect to

632
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 5: the Sun. The velocity the moon we respect to the

633
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 5: center of the galaxy. The loss of the moon we

634
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 5: respect to the cosmic micro wave background average. Which one

635
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 5: is the true one? Well, none, It's a velocity. It's

636
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 5: a notion that pertains the two objects. The moon is

637
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 5: something else. It's always the loss of the moon with

638
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 5: respect something else. We sort of know that, right because

639
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 5: when we say don't move, we know that don't move

640
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 5: is relatively to something. For instance, if you're in a

641
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 5: train and your little daughter is jumping around and you

642
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 5: say don't move, you don't mean that your little daughters

643
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 5: would jump out of the train and don't move with

644
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 5: respect to the earth, right, you mean, don't move expect

645
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 5: to the train. And she understands correctly, right that she

646
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,479
Speaker 5: should move respect the train. And she's just still moving

647
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 5: very fast because the train is running. So we understand

648
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 5: that velocity. It's a relational notion. But this is nothing

649
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 5: to do with subjectivity, right, because if I say that

650
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 5: the moon has a velocity respect to the Sun, I'm

651
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 5: not saying that the Sun is a subject that sees

652
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 5: the Moon and perceives something. It has nothing to do

653
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 5: with that, nothing to do with mind, the subjectivity, Just physics,

654
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 5: pure physics. There is a quantity velocity which doesn't depend

655
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 5: on one thing. It depends on two things, the Moon

656
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 5: and the Sun, and it's velocity, the relative velocity of

657
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 5: the two how they move. We respect one of them.

658
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: So that's a big philosophical step. Right, you've sort of

659
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: taken away from the moon the fact that it can

660
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: have a property called velocity. You say, you can't have

661
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: a property called velocity. Only a pair of things can

662
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: have this property. A single object cannot. And the sort

663
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 1: of mental game I like to play is to imagine,

664
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: like a particle in an empty universe, can it have

665
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: a velocity? Well, it has no meaning to have a

666
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: velocity if you are the only thing in the universe, right,

667
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: And so I want to also ask you about this

668
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: concept of cost. You're talking about the cost of a theory,

669
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: and so here is that the cost you mean that

670
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: you're like now changing philosophically what it means to be

671
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: real that no longer can you include in your sort

672
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: of you know, category or your index of what it

673
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: means to be that you have a certain velocity that

674
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: you've like taken that away from objects.

675
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 5: Yes, this is the course. I think you said it

676
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 5: very cleanly. It's a deep philosophical point when we realize

677
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 5: that velocity is not a property of an object you

678
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 5: need another object is a property of two objects. A

679
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 5: traditional quantum mechanics in a sense the following suggestion, we

680
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 5: understand better quantum mechanics if we just interpret all properties,

681
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 5: all variable in this way, not just velocity. Okay, any

682
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 5: variable that you can think about a system only makes

683
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 5: sense if you have another system.

684
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 7: You're saying, it's this is a variable with suspect to

685
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 7: this other system. And what you mean is that there

686
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 7: was an interaction to these two systems. That variable was

687
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 7: realized in this interaction, namely, describe the way when system

688
00:37:58,480 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 7: affected the other one.

689
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: And can use even the same language. Because now we

690
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: talk about a velocity, we say velocity of the moon

691
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: as measured by an observer on the Sun, or as

692
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: measured by observer on the Earth. Now you can say

693
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: the location of this particle or the color of this

694
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,879
Speaker 1: particle as measured by this observer versus as measured by

695
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 1: that observer. Exactly when you pop a piece of cheese

696
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: into your mouth or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt,

697
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact of each

698
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,760
Speaker 1: and every bite, But the people in the dairy industry

699
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,760
Speaker 1: are US. Dairy has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals,

700
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: including being greenhouse gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's

701
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,399
Speaker 1: why they're working hard every day to find new ways

702
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse

703
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: gas emissions. Take water, for example, most dairy farms reuse

704
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 1: water up to four times. The same water cools the milk,

705
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: cleans equipment, washes the barn, and irrigates the crops. How

706
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: is us dairy Tackling greenhouse gases, Many farms use anaerobic

707
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: diges yess that turn the methane from maneuver into renewable

708
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 1: energy that can power farms, towns, and electric cars. So

709
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: the next time you grab a slice of pizza or

710
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: lick an ice cream cone, know that dairy farmers and

711
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: processors around the country are using the latest practices and

712
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 1: innovations to provide the nutrient deentse dairy products we love

713
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: with less of an impact. Visit usdairy dot com slash

714
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Speaker 1: sustainability to learn more.

715
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Speaker 8: Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which

716
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Speaker 8: recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm

717
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Speaker 8: a neuroscientists at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring

718
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Speaker 8: the three pound universe.

719
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Speaker 1: In our heads.

720
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Speaker 8: We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this

721
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722
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723
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Speaker 8: Why is it so hard to keep a secret, When

724
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725
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726
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Speaker 8: conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more, because

727
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,040
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728
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729
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730
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Speaker 8: digging into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David

731
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 8: Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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733
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Speaker 9: Guess what, Mango?

751
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752
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753
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Speaker 9: So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote

754
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755
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756
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757
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758
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Speaker 10: over the last seven years, and it's called Earthquake House.

759
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760
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761
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762
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764
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765
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766
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Speaker 10: Is William Shatner's best acting work in Esperanto?

767
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768
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Speaker 10: What happened to Esperanto?

769
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,160
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770
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771
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772
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778
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Speaker 5: Now, you went strongly in saying, does this mean that

779
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 5: reality itself it's relative to I hesitate. Namely, this same

780
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 5: reaction could have been raised against the Galileo Newton when

781
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 5: they started using velocity. In this sense, I think that

782
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 5: the reality of the motion of the moon and velocity

783
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 5: of the moon and the silent things, in spite of

784
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 5: what you have understood about relativity to velocity, is still

785
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 5: very solid. We still have a realistic interpretation of motion,

786
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 5: and so I would like to think about relational quantum

787
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 5: mechanics as a realistic picture. So reality is there, it's

788
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 5: I mean, things are there, and there's nothing to do

789
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 5: with us. Of course, we are just a part of nature.

790
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 5: Is not that nature is a part of our mind,

791
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 5: as my naturalism if you want. But the way reality

792
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 5: is is subtle. According to quantum mechanics can be described.

793
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 5: Reality can be described by systems that have a properties

794
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 5: relative to other systems.

795
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: So then can you have something which exists by itself

796
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: like imagine, you know, the sort of simple example I

797
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier for velocity, a single particle in an empty

798
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: universe can't have a velocity. Now you said that everything

799
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: is relational the way velocity is. Does that mean that

800
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: a single particle in an empty universe does not exist

801
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 1: or cannot have any property because it would need something

802
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: else in order to measure it. Can a single particle

803
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 1: universe exist?

804
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 5: No, if quantum mechan next is the correct description of

805
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 5: the unis, and in fact that can be said in

806
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 5: a besides way. There's a philosopher which is Malodorato, who

807
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 5: is an elaborated match on that, saying, if we take

808
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 5: a relation of quantum mechanis correctly, we cannot talk about

809
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 5: the quantum state of the universe. We cannot state of

810
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 5: the quantum state of everything. We cannot even talk about

811
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 5: the description of the universe because the descriptional unis needs

812
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 5: to be If you use this way of thinking about

813
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 5: quantum mechanics, so scripture relatively to something else. So in

814
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 5: the moment in which you're saying the description uniits, so

815
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 5: you're assuming there is something outside that is looking at

816
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 5: the universe. I mean you can, but then in your

817
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 5: reality there is something else in addition to what you

818
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 5: just called the universe a moment ago. For instance, the

819
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 5: famous wave functional unis what is it is a mathematical

820
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 5: object that allows you to predict what you would measure

821
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 5: if you are outside the universe interact with it. But

822
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 5: then it's not the universe anymore because there is something

823
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 5: else outside the universe interacting with it. So the way

824
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 5: functual units is meaningless. It's always a wave function of something.

825
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: I was hoping to use that example to lead you

826
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: down the garden path to admit that that means the

827
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: universe can't exist, but you just went straight there and said,

828
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 1: if this is true and we don't have a meaningful

829
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: concept of what the universe is, I mean, isn't that

830
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: a problem? I mean, if we want a theory of

831
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: reality that tells us what is happening, doesn't it need

832
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: to also allow us to think about what reality is.

833
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,479
Speaker 5: I think it's a deeper point. One of the things

834
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 5: we have understood more and more in modern physics, but

835
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 5: also another realm of modern culture is that we're always

836
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 5: part of the story, so we see reality from within,

837
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 5: not from outside, in completely different parts of our culture. First,

838
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 5: this was famously an immense issue anthropology, Right, you want

839
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 5: to describe a society. When the Europeans went around the

840
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 5: world to try to describe society is objectively non European

841
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 5: societies maybe I don't know some people in their Amazon.

842
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 5: And then they realized that they were not doing nothing objectively.

843
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 5: They were just comparing their own culture with the culture

844
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 5: of these people. I mean they were interacting with these

845
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 5: people and not being outside a cultural scheme, but doing

846
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 5: something enormously interesting, not something that lacked value, but that

847
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 5: was not a stepping out from what is being described.

848
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 5: And I think physics, to some extent has encountered the

849
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 5: same set of problems. Namely, we described the universe from within.

850
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 5: We are part of the universe. What physics tell us

851
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 5: is if I encountered this, I know what I can expect,

852
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 5: and I know what I can expect what kind of

853
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 5: things have around me. But the idea that physics give

854
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 5: a list of all or everything existing with the state,

855
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 5: it's first of all, totally implausible by itself, right, I mean,

856
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 5: how many stars there are in the universe and how

857
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 5: many atoms in each one of these stars. So it's

858
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 5: just totally outside of a capacity but even in principle,

859
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 5: what does it mean. I mean, physics is all in

860
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 5: the form if this, then that right. If I found

861
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 5: this pendulum in this way, then it's going to move

862
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 5: like that. It's model, as the philosopher says. So it's

863
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 5: always a story about giving some initial condition, this is

864
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 5: what I expect to happen, given some data. This is

865
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 5: what comes later, and then it tells what kind of

866
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 5: atoms are around, forces are around. But we shouldn't expect

867
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 5: from physics the total novel of the universe. That's what

868
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 5: everything is in the universe. That's the toll state of

869
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 5: the universe. Why it's total, that's far outside our capacities,

870
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 5: And probably I would say it's meaningless because of what

871
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 5: we said before, because that would be an issue that

872
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 5: God might have if he or she exists, seeing from

873
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 5: that units from that outside all our business.

874
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: And I think this makes exactly the point that you

875
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier, that we want to know the

876
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: answers these the philosophical questions, because they tell us which

877
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: questions then make sense to ask, which questions have answers,

878
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: and which questions are even relevant to think about. I

879
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: think that's some of the most important reason why physicists

880
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: needs to think about philosophy. And I know that you

881
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 1: talk about quantom mechanics a lot, and you're quite an

882
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: expert on this. So I want to try to ask

883
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 1: you a question that maybe nobody's asked you before, put

884
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 1: you on the spot, and that's this, Have you thought

885
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: about what it might be like to talk about physics

886
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: or quantum mechanics with aliens? Imagine that we meet extraterrestrial physicists, right,

887
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: and we go and we say it to them, Oh, wow,

888
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: you must know the secrets of the universe because you

889
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: figured out how to travel here from distant stars. Think

890
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: there's any possibility that we would be asking the same

891
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: questions or that their answers to our questions would make

892
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 1: any sense to us. Do you think that the way

893
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: that we look at the universe is sort of the

894
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: way Europeans, you know, looked at other cultures. Do you

895
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: think that it's deeply imbued with our human bias or

896
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: do you think that we are probing something universal which

897
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 1: should be part of sort of like some galactic physics project.

898
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 5: Great question, A bit of both, but more of the

899
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 5: first and the second. That's my answer. There is a

900
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 5: precise sense in which what we discover in science is

901
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 5: it's just true in universal I mean, I don't think

902
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 5: this can be denied, and people who denied it, I

903
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 5: think have a tought way of denying it. Intern of physics,

904
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 5: in some sense, it's true, it works described realities. I mean,

905
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 5: the fact that everything is made by atoms, and there

906
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 5: are ninety and so kind of different atoms. That's a fact.

907
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 5: It's like when you you know, when you go down

908
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 5: the street and you see that you know your sweet

909
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 5: friends are in the cafe. That's the fact. It's true.

910
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 5: And I believe that science is a higher level of understanding.

911
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 5: Fact is a way humankind organizes an understanding of reality

912
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 5: better and better. But from this, to have the idea

913
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 5: that there is a unique, clearly path to the perfect

914
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 5: description of reality and we are on it, or even

915
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 5: that we're close to the end of it, that seems

916
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:29,959
Speaker 5: to me unbelievably full of self pretention. And I see

917
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 5: no sign that we're close to that. And we have

918
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 5: a sort of experiment of that because we know what

919
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 5: past centeries scientists thought, and we do know that some

920
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 5: of the things that we know would be meaningless for them.

921
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 5: It would not answer their questions, really going in a

922
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 5: different direction, which doesn't mean that they are better than us.

923
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 5: We are better than them because we know what they

924
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 5: in some objective sense, and the objective sense that if

925
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 5: both men came alive, and if I could have enough

926
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 5: time Bom and me sitting here, I believe that I

927
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 5: could slowly arrive to convince him that there are a

928
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 5: lot of interesting things he doesn't know. So I think

929
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 5: it's the same with some aliens. If some aliens would come,

930
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 5: I wouldn't be surprised if they have a completely different story,

931
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 5: And it might be possible that we just don't understand

932
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 5: one another because the story is too different. It might

933
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 5: be different because they have a different way of perceiving reality. Right,

934
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 5: we view reality on the basis of what's useful to

935
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 5: our there being an evolution, not on the basis of

936
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 5: you know, some countin rationalism, or simply even if they

937
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 5: had the same senses, because culture then was going in

938
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 5: other directions. But I believe there is communication, right, Cultures communicate,

939
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 5: So maybe with these aliens we could learn to communicate

940
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 5: and we will be very surprised of learning completely different perspectives.

941
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,240
Speaker 5: If they are more advanced than us in some sense,

942
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 5: or maybe they would be surprised to learn something from

943
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 5: my or maybe both so was I don't think there

944
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 5: is a path two tools, and they would know everything

945
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 5: we know and more. Maybe they would never figure out

946
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 5: quantu mechanics, and we teach them quantum mechanics. Look, it

947
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 5: was fantastic. You're right, it's a relationship.

948
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: Will send you to meet the aliens and how they

949
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: don't need you.

950
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 5: There is a great novel, The Dark Cloud, The Black Cloud,

951
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 5: in which there is this it's a huge cloud that

952
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 5: come towards the Sun, and somebody realizes that it's actually

953
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 5: an intelligent something down there, and it's uh. Somebody realized

954
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 5: that it is going to be a disaster for the

955
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 5: Earth is going to sack the energy of the Sun.

956
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 5: And so the scientists arrived to communicate and just gently

957
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 5: convince this cloud to leave us alone. But then there

958
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 5: is one scientist so too, and I don't remember that, said

959
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 5: wait a minute, I want to learn everything you know.

960
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 5: So the cloud answer, well, it's tandreous. I mean, your

961
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 5: little brain is. But they really want it. So the

962
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,879
Speaker 5: cloud say, okay, if you really want so I think

963
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 5: it's two of them they sit around the screen, okay,

964
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 5: and the screens start flickering, and they just look at this.

965
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 5: At the beginning, they don't understand, but then they start understanding,

966
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 5: and then finally they start learning. And then they're lost

967
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 5: because they're considered full and they're putting the psychiatic hospital

968
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 5: and the body knows.

969
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: What I see. That's the danger of talking physics with

970
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: aliens is you can see reality so clearly that humans

971
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: can no longer relate to you. So let me bring

972
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 1: it back to one last question about relational quantum mechanics.

973
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: What you're proposing here is really a radical departure on

974
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 1: a way of seeing the universe, imagining that objects don't

975
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: contain on their own properties, but that these things are

976
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,760
Speaker 1: just dependent on pairs, essentially things that are measuring other things.

977
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: So my question to you is that how could we

978
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 1: know if this is true? Is there some experiment we

979
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,720
Speaker 1: can do that could tell us, Look, Copenhagen fails here,

980
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: and we need relational quantum mechanics, or we can dispense

981
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,399
Speaker 1: with the many worlds. Is this something which can only

982
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,280
Speaker 1: ever be a philosophical conversation among physicists motivating our questions

983
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: about reality or is this something we can actually one

984
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 1: day put to the test.

985
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,240
Speaker 5: I don't see any way it could put to the test.

986
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:15,720
Speaker 5: There's some interpretation quantum mechanics that assume that quantum mechanics

987
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 5: is actually wrong, and so they can be tested because

988
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 5: you can do an experiment to see where the quantum

989
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 5: mechanic is wrong right, And they're interesting, and so far

990
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,320
Speaker 5: many of these tests have been done and quant mechanics

991
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 5: always going to be right, and all alternative through the

992
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 5: moment have been all eliminated. But the various interpretations like

993
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 5: many world or debudy bomb, the pilot wave interpretation, hidden variables,

994
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 5: or relational quantum mechanics, which I think are the main ones.

995
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 5: So cubans maybe in one sense they are not distinguishable

996
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 5: in an empirical way. As far as I know, nobody

997
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 5: has come out with the experiment to distinguish them, and

998
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 5: in a sense studying them, there's no experiment making a difference.

999
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 5: So how would we know, Well, I think exactly the

1000
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,919
Speaker 5: same way in which we finally agreed that the Earth

1001
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 5: is not the center of the universe, even if there's

1002
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 5: no experiment that tell us that the Earth is or

1003
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 5: is not the central of the unions, because there's no

1004
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 5: way to measure just what the center center unions, namely

1005
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 5: the progress of science, will work better with one conceptual

1006
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 5: scheme than the other. I do want to gravity my

1007
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 5: main The reason I've got into the issue of interpreational

1008
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 5: quantum mechanics and nan the mechanics goes back to the nineties.

1009
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 5: In fact, my first papers on that in the late nineties,

1010
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 5: and then other people came in and have developed it

1011
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 5: and in recent years have been a much stronger increase

1012
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 5: in interest in it. And it's not isolated because there

1013
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:46,839
Speaker 5: are other people who have very similar ideas. So VISI

1014
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 5: is really part of a little group of interpretation, just

1015
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 5: similar in some sense, maybe with different emphasis, different tone.

1016
00:55:56,000 --> 00:56:00,840
Speaker 5: I'm thinking of writings by Zilinger, by Chancellor of Grupner,

1017
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:05,359
Speaker 5: by Richard Haley and another. There are a number of

1018
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 5: ways of going in the same direction. So in my

1019
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 5: own work and trying to put up a quantum say

1020
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 5: of gravity, I found that this way of thinking, it's

1021
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:17,399
Speaker 5: much more helpful when you don't have space, you don't

1022
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 5: have time to locate things, you don't have the observer.

1023
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 5: This relational way works well. And one reason it works

1024
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,879
Speaker 5: out this works very well well with general relativity, where

1025
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 5: location is relation. Nothing has a position to be somewhere.

1026
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,359
Speaker 5: It's only meaningful if you're some well respect to something else.

1027
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 5: And now things start staying together well, because to be

1028
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 5: next to something is a possibility of interacting with something,

1029
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 5: so you can exchange information with something. That's what we're

1030
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 5: talking about in physics, this being next to one another

1031
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 5: in exchanging something, rather than having you know, a big

1032
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 5: canvas there and placing things and saying that's that's what

1033
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:59,280
Speaker 5: reality is. So I hope that the discussion about individual

1034
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 5: puantmya is going ahead. It's not locked, it's not the

1035
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 5: same as thirty years ago. And I think that with

1036
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 5: the new ideas, with the new things being discussed, at

1037
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 5: some point it will become more and more clear that

1038
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 5: one way of viewing things it is productive. It works.

1039
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 5: It doesn't require us to assume things which are absurd,

1040
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 5: but it does require us to assume things which are

1041
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 5: necessary to make a sense of reality nature wonderful.

1042
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 1: Well, that's a fascinating insight into how we might make

1043
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: steps forward. And I agree with you that it makes

1044
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: sense to unify quantum mechanics with relativity. If quantum mechanics

1045
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 1: itself becomes sort of relativistic, not in the sense of

1046
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: things moving at very high speeds, but in the sense

1047
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 1: that the objects and the quantities we measure themselves are

1048
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 1: relational or relative to other objects. So that makes a

1049
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 1: lot of sense. Well, thanks very much for this fascinating conversation,

1050
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 1: really stimulating you know about quantm mechanics and physics and

1051
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: relativity and of course aliens and philosophy. I want to

1052
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 1: thank you very much to point our listeners to your

1053
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: book helgi Land, which has just come out recently, and

1054
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 1: it's a fascinating read on these ideas and how they

1055
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 1: were developed, and people who are interested in digging more

1056
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 1: deep into them might encourage you to check them out.

1057
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 1: So Carlo, thanks you very much for joining us on

1058
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: the program today.

1059
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 5: Thank you very mention. That was great.

1060
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and

1061
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 1: Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeart Radio.

1062
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1063
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1076
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Speaker 2: to meditation and brain health. We've got you covered and

1077
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 2: most importantly, it's information you can trust. Everything is vetted

1078
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 2: by experts at the top of their field. Just sign

1079
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 2: up at katycurrek dot com slash Body and Soul. That's

1080
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Speaker 2: k A T I E c O u ric dot

1081
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Speaker 2: com slash Body and Soul. I promise you'll be happier

1082
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Speaker 2: and healthier if you do.

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00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:55,439
Speaker 5: Hi.

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00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 8: I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

1085
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 8: hit the number one science podcasts in America. I mean

1086
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 8: neuroscientists at Stanford and I've spent my career exploring the

1087
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 8: three pound universe in our heads. Join me weekly to

1088
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 8: explore the relationship between your brain and your life. Because

1089
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 8: the more we know about what's running under the hood,

1090
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 8: better we can steer our lives. Listen to Inner Cosmos

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01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,880
Speaker 8: with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 8: wherever you get your podcasts.