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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease, Libby and Abby, two beautiful

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Speaker 1: little girls so full of life. Every time I look

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Speaker 1: at their pictures, you just see life, joy, excitement.

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Speaker 2: Coming from their eyes. Their smiles.

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Speaker 1: Those smiles ended.

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Speaker 2: Their lives cut brutally short.

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Speaker 1: The two little girls on the Trustle Bridge in Delphi

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Speaker 1: behind bars a local pharmacy tech Richard Allen, You're never

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Speaker 1: going to believe, never in a million years. His defense

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Speaker 1: to the murder of these two little girls. Are you ready?

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Speaker 1: If you're sitting down, you may need to lay down.

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Speaker 1: He now says they were ritualistically murdered by the.

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Speaker 2: Sons of Odin Odin od N like thor, like a

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Speaker 2: Norse god.

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Speaker 1: I mean, see Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us here at Fox Nation and serious

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Speaker 1: exem one eleven. I know it's hard to believe. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at WLS.

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Speaker 3: Attorneys for this suspect, Richard Allen, filed documenting that their

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Speaker 3: client is innocent and that members of a white nationalist

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Speaker 3: group are the ones responsible for killing teenagers Abigail Williams

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Speaker 3: and Liberty German as part of a quote ritualistic sacrifice.

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Speaker 3: The defense as the group had a motive because one

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Speaker 3: of the girl's parents was dating a person of another race.

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Speaker 3: Attorneys also requested that the media transfer of Allen would

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Speaker 3: happen from the facility where he is being held. They

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Speaker 3: say members of the white nationalist group apparently work there

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Speaker 3: and are threatening his life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that I believe any of that.

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Speaker 1: But what is really interesting me right now is his

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Speaker 1: defense theory that the sons of Odin.

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Speaker 2: Now, Odin is.

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Speaker 1: A Norse god. There are four sons, Thor, Baldor, Vior,

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Speaker 1: and Valley. What does that have to do with a

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Speaker 1: murder on a bridge and Delphi? With me an all

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Speaker 1: star panel to make sense of what we know right now?

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Speaker 1: But now take a listen to wl WT.

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Speaker 4: The explosive allegations are part of new court documents filed

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Speaker 4: by Allen's lawyers explaining why they say someone else committed

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Speaker 4: the murders.

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Speaker 5: We are seeing the defense's argument for the case, which

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Speaker 5: is that the murders were the result of a ritual

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Speaker 5: sacrifice from a cult of Odinists.

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Speaker 2: A cult of odiness.

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Speaker 1: Okay, First to Max Lewis, joining us investigative reporter of

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Speaker 1: Fox fifty nine, Max, a cult of odinists. What they've

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Speaker 1: been hiding out in Delphi. I'm going to ask you

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Speaker 1: a question that I bet you're not ready for. How

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Speaker 1: many people live in Delphi? How big is Delphi?

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Speaker 6: It is not that big. There are probably few five

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Speaker 6: six thousand people, I'd say in the city.

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Speaker 7: That's probably rough.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh, hey, I looked it up. Two thousand, nine

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Speaker 1: hundred and seventy two O licenses. There's yeah, hey, you're

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Speaker 1: out of here. But wait a minute. Wait, So three

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Speaker 1: thousand people and somehow there is a sleeper bed of

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Speaker 1: odinists and nobody knew. Really, hey, I was saying earlier.

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Speaker 1: I've never the last time I remember being so happy

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Speaker 1: about a lying defense. Do you remember when Scott Peterson's

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Speaker 1: team came up with Okay? First of all, they said,

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Speaker 1: what did they One thing was a Hawaiian gang, then

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Speaker 1: it was burglars, then it was someone took Lacy to

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Speaker 1: cut baby Connor out of her stomach and raise the

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Speaker 1: baby as their own. I mean the and I remember

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Speaker 1: the defense attorneys. A very renowned defense attorney, Mark Gierrogees

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Speaker 1: would try out the theories with me against me every

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Speaker 1: night on Larry King. It would play out on National

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Speaker 1: TV and then if there was a rejection or we

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Speaker 1: could tear it to shreds, then he'd move on to

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Speaker 1: the next defense.

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Speaker 2: Sons of Odin? What is that? Max? What is Sons

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Speaker 2: of Odin?

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Speaker 6: Well, it's they. It is essentially a what they say

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Speaker 6: from what I know from speaking to some expert when

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Speaker 6: although this sort of came out was that it is

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Speaker 6: this sort of ancient, uh Nordic religion and these people

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Speaker 6: are sort of, you know, use it and it's a

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Speaker 6: white nationalist group.

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Speaker 1: And right there, right there, Max, You're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: pick Max Lewis, and I'm gonna give you a moment

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Speaker 1: to think.

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Speaker 2: About your answer.

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Speaker 1: Are they white supremacists, are they white nationalists? Or are

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Speaker 1: they worshipers of the four Sons of Odin? You said

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Speaker 1: you needed an expert, and guess what, Max Lewis, I've

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Speaker 1: got an expert. Doctor Mark Mirabello was with US Professor

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Speaker 1: of History, Shawnee State University, author of wait for It,

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Speaker 1: the Odin Brotherhood O d I N the Odin Brotherhood,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Mark Mirabello. I took the twins to Iceland and

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Speaker 1: we got one of those group tours, super cheap, super awesome.

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Speaker 1: It was amazing to see the Aurora Borealis, the north stars,

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Speaker 1: the north Northern lights. And while we were there, I

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Speaker 1: learned doctor Mark Mirabello that people actually don't look at

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Speaker 1: me like this Sidney like here it goes.

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Speaker 2: Actually still believe in the Valkyrie. They believe that they

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Speaker 2: worship the Norse gods.

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Speaker 1: There's huge chunks of rocks up on these high mountains

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Speaker 1: and they believe that those come alive and that they

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Speaker 1: are trolls or something. And it was really charming and

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Speaker 1: I loved it, and we actually want to go back

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Speaker 1: because it was incredible.

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Speaker 2: Everything we saw was amazing. But you do know that's crazy.

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Speaker 7: Right, not really, And by the way, I take it back.

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Speaker 1: As not crazy. It's perfectly normal, perfectly normal.

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Speaker 2: Go ahead.

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Speaker 7: Let me clarify that. In fact, in recent years, and

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Speaker 7: this has been fueled by the Internet, virtually all pagan

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Speaker 7: traditions in the West are being revived. Celtic gods, Norse gods.

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Speaker 7: There's also Egyptian gods are being revived, the Roman and

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Speaker 7: Greek gods, the Slavic gods. There are Druid groups. These

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Speaker 7: groups are spreading rapidly. In fact, there are some estimates

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Speaker 7: there are more witches now in England than there are

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Speaker 7: practicing Methodists. I should mention the group I wrote on,

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Speaker 7: in particular, the Old Brotherhood is actually a secret society.

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Speaker 7: So you put me in a space because any member

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Speaker 7: could not admit he's a but and incidentally, the reason

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Speaker 7: they're a secret society is because what's happening now?

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Speaker 2: You mean what I'm saying right now?

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Speaker 7: Well, what I'm saying is when Americans are involved in

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Speaker 7: unusual religions such as witchcraft, where you have naked witches

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Speaker 7: dancing in circles at full moon in the forest, where

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Speaker 7: you have Odists going and they're also called Asa true

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Speaker 7: going into the wilderness, offering need and so forth to

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Speaker 7: their gods and goddesses. John Q public views of them

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Speaker 7: as weird and goes after them.

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Speaker 1: So are Odinists? Are they white supremacists? Are they white nationalists?

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Speaker 1: Or do they actually worship the four Sons of Odin?

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Speaker 8: Well?

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Speaker 2: Actually, so, first of all, who is Odin? Just let's

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Speaker 2: start with that.

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Speaker 7: Well again, not to get too complex on this, but

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Speaker 7: it's an Indo European deity of Norse pagans. And in fact,

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Speaker 7: they don't really just focus on Odin. There are gods

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Speaker 7: and goddesses, approximately thirty six of them, and they go

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Speaker 7: back to if you look at the eedas of the vikings,

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Speaker 7: they are clearly described there, but they resemble traditions and

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Speaker 7: other Indo European religions such as for example, Odin is

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Speaker 7: actually Hermes to the Greeks and Rudra Shiva to the Hindus.

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Speaker 7: But I should mention this notion of your original question.

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Speaker 7: Are they white nationalists, supremacists and so forth? The movement

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Speaker 7: is multifaceted. You'll have on the very left, and they

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Speaker 7: tend to use the term aaru, and they can have

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Speaker 7: black members in these groups, and they will have gay

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Speaker 7: marriage in these groups. And then you have on the

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Speaker 7: extreme right. Some of them are actually white separatists, and

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Speaker 7: incidentally they're routinely called white supremacists, but they're not. They

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Speaker 7: don't want to dominate non white people. They don't want

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Speaker 7: to control as that was the goal to take kk

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Speaker 7: for example after the Civil War and Jim Crow laws.

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Speaker 7: They don't want to dominate them, they don't want to

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Speaker 7: control them. They typically want a white homeland or bastion.

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Speaker 7: In fact, they want roughly ten percent of the United States,

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Speaker 7: just ten percent and it's either going to be set

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Speaker 7: up in Appalachia or it's going to be set up

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Speaker 7: in the Pacific Northwest.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like Nazis. Here's an important point, though allegedly pure.

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Speaker 2: What's the important point.

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Speaker 7: Well, I was going to say that the notion that

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Speaker 7: they would kill if you go to the extreme right

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Speaker 7: wing of this Odnus movement, it would be unthinkable for

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Speaker 7: them to kill two little white girls. They have convinced

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Speaker 7: themselves that only eight percent of the entire human race

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Speaker 7: is now white.

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Speaker 1: Is there anyone that is one hundred percent pure anything?

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Speaker 7: Well, here's the point I was trying to drive home.

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Speaker 7: They're convinced that only two percent of the entire human

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Speaker 7: race are female. Is a potential child bearing age. So,

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Speaker 7: in other words, someone under metal pause all the way

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Speaker 7: to girlhood, and they view girls who are white as

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Speaker 7: a special resource. Now, if they're going to if they're

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Speaker 7: not going to commit a ritual sacrificer. But if they

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Speaker 7: were to kill someone, it would be what they would

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Speaker 7: call the race trader, the woman dating the non white man.

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Speaker 7: They would not kill a little girl. And by the way,

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Speaker 7: o'nis do not commit ritual sacrifices. There are ritual sacrifices

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Speaker 7: going on in the world some years ago. In fact,

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Speaker 7: about fifteen three teenage girls in Italy ritually sacrificed and none.

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Speaker 7: These girls were aged sixteen to seventeen some years ago,

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Speaker 7: and they were to Satan. They offered the nun to Satan. Also,

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Speaker 7: roughly the same time, a married couple in Germany, the

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Speaker 7: Ruda family, sacrificed their friend, stabbed him sixty six times,

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Speaker 7: a carved a pentagram on his chest, and then had

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Speaker 7: sexual intercourse in a coffin afterward, again in offering to Satan.

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Speaker 7: In fact, the one underground group that openly encourages human

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Speaker 7: sacrifice is called the Order of Nine Angles, and typically

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Speaker 7: the writings appear you can find them online at Amazon

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Speaker 7: under the name Anton Long that's a pseudonym. And they

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Speaker 7: openly encourage members to sacrifice, but they make it clear

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Speaker 7: they're practicing at kind of hard eugenics. The members must

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Speaker 7: only sacrifice adults, not children, and they must only sacrifice

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Speaker 7: what they consider dross or waste. Now, incidentally, this group

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Speaker 7: is Order of Nine Angles as hostile to egalitarian theory,

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Speaker 7: quality theories. They're hostile to it's actually they question they

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Speaker 7: attack the Holocaust, and again they're extremely on the right

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Speaker 7: and they have levels of initiation. There's roughly seven levels.

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Speaker 7: They go through difficult ordeals and members are encouraged to

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Speaker 7: actually as a special right to murder someone as a sacrifice.

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Speaker 7: They use magical techniques or actual killing techniques. The magical

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Speaker 7: would be like a voodoo doll, but typically they'll plot

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Speaker 7: the murder and make it look like an accident. So

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Speaker 7: there are ritual sacrifices. Henry Call years ago you covered

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Speaker 7: Mark kilroy murder in northern Mexico. He was a college

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Speaker 7: student crossed over and he was sacrificed an Apollo magic ritual.

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Speaker 7: So human sacrifices do occur. Ritual sacrifices do occur, But

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Speaker 7: I've never actually seen the acca true and the oldness

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Speaker 7: at any level involved in that.

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Speaker 2: Time stories with Nancy Grace, you.

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Speaker 1: Know what, I'm getting so deep in the order of

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Speaker 1: open right now, and I'm glad that you're telling me

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Speaker 1: all this because to Frand law Well joining us former

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Speaker 1: Deputy States attorney out of Calvert County specializing in sex offense's,

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Speaker 1: child abuston homicides. The more I learn from doctor Mark

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Speaker 1: Mary Bellow and again guys. He's the author of the

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Speaker 1: Odin Brotherhood on Amazon. The more I learned from him

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Speaker 1: about the Odin Brotherhood frand the more unlikely it is

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Speaker 1: that this defense will work. Now a twist on the

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Speaker 1: Odin Brotherhood that, of course the prosecution must understand fully

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Speaker 1: is that the claim, as I understand it from the

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Speaker 1: defense filings is the Odin Brotherhood was hijacked by white

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Speaker 1: nationalists and they are the ones that, according to the defense,

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Speaker 1: murdered Abby and Libby. But the more we know, I know,

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Speaker 1: doctor Mark Mirabella was going deathcom forward, deep, deep, deep,

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Speaker 1: deep into Odinism. But you have to know it in

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Speaker 1: and out like the back of your hands, so you

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Speaker 1: can use that knowledge as a shield and a sword

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Speaker 1: in court when this defense comes up. And the more

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Speaker 1: Mirabella was saying, the more fantastical it becomes that the

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Speaker 1: Order of had anything to do with these murdyers.

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Speaker 9: I agree with that. But when you read their memo,

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Speaker 9: it was mind blowing to me that one of the

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Speaker 9: guys confessed to his girlfriend, she came forward to the police,

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Speaker 9: another guy confessed to his ex wife, And then there

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Speaker 9: was a man in Georgia who actually saw disturbing images

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Speaker 9: on this guy Holder's Facebook page and he reported it

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Speaker 9: to the police. Those images were kept, but then the

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Speaker 9: police couldn't find them when they asked for him. It's

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Speaker 9: just kind of bizarre. And that guy hold her his

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Speaker 9: son actually dated Abby. It's very If you read that

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Speaker 9: whole memo, it's mind blowing. They have so many connections

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Speaker 9: to these.

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Speaker 1: People, connections, connections. You're right, there are connections. Fran Longwell

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Speaker 1: and I agree in speaking of confessions to Max Lewis,

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter, Fox fifty nine, speaking of confessions, what about

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Speaker 1: the ones Richard.

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Speaker 2: Allen spouted out? Can you tell us about those?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, he was basically this was in the last filing

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Speaker 6: that the defense made, the last big filing, and they

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Speaker 6: were trying to get him out of the Westville Correctional Facility,

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Speaker 6: which is a state prison. It is not a local

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Speaker 6: county jail. He's being held there for extra protection. But

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Speaker 6: obviously that is quite rare for someone to be held

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Speaker 6: in a prison where most people have already been convicted.

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Speaker 6: But regardless, they said that, you know, they were using

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Speaker 6: this that he has gone crazy in this prison, and

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Speaker 6: he has. They said that he confessed to the killings

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Speaker 6: multiple times to his wife and to his mother while

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Speaker 6: speaking on the prison phone system with them, and there

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Speaker 6: are recordings of those calls. Obviously we haven't heard them,

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Speaker 6: they haven't been released, but those do exist.

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Speaker 2: Max.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it true that, according to these phone calls, which

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Speaker 1: will can and will be played in court, he confesses

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Speaker 1: no less than five times to his wife and his mother.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that true?

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Speaker 6: Yes, it was several times on the phone name.

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Speaker 2: And there is the other issue.

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Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, director of the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective,

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Speaker 1: and this is where I found him.

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Speaker 2: I found Chris McDonough on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: When I was looking at everything possible about Brian Coburger,

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Speaker 1: which I still do every day, I found Chris McDonough

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Speaker 1: doing a very slow drive through the whole area before

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Speaker 1: I could go to Idaho myself.

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Speaker 2: I saw it the way he.

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Speaker 1: Presented it, it was amazing and it made so many

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Speaker 1: of the facts makes sense. Chris McDonough. There's also the

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Speaker 1: issue of the bullet. I don't care who says what.

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Speaker 1: Anybody can be lying at any given time, and I

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Speaker 1: think one of the reasons they're trying to claim Richard

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Speaker 1: Allen is having a mental breakdown behind bars is so

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Speaker 1: they can get out anything he said to his wife

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Speaker 1: and his mother under the pretext that he was insane

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Speaker 1: or on meds at the time. Think about that for

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Speaker 1: a moment. But my question to you, Chris mcdonna, is,

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Speaker 1: what about the bullet found at the scene under one

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Speaker 1: of the bodies or between the bodies that matches back

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Speaker 1: to his gun, his longtime gun in his home.

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Speaker 2: How did that get there? Did the sons of Odin

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Speaker 2: do that too?

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Speaker 8: Well, that's a great point, Nanci. And it appears that

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Speaker 8: bullet matched the ejection port of them.

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Speaker 2: Don't start with me McDonough.

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Speaker 1: Don't tell me it appears, because that's signs that is

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Speaker 1: not a subjective.

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Speaker 2: Either it matches or it doesn't match.

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Speaker 1: And you can look under a microscope the way I

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Speaker 1: have done a million times, and you can see it.

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Speaker 2: It's like a fingerprint. Either it matches or it doesn't.

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Speaker 8: Chris, Yeah, it matches. According to the lab that they

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Speaker 8: sent it to. It's a P two two six forty

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Speaker 8: caliber handgun. And that and of itself. If we also

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Speaker 8: look at the crime scene as a whole, this the

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Speaker 8: crimechine does not have indication of any type of organized

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Speaker 8: structured You know cult like type of problems. This is

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Speaker 8: a sexually motivated crime schine. It's what we call a

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Speaker 8: cluster scene. And you see the the victims are positioned

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Speaker 8: and or staged in certain points, which is part of

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Speaker 8: a signature, and that can show psychosis and or a

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Speaker 8: psychotic method that was utilized there because it was very

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Speaker 8: cunning at the time. And Alan puts himself there at

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Speaker 8: the same time, his car is seen there on videotape, etc.

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Speaker 7: Etc.

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Speaker 8: And then in confession.

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Speaker 1: Even the hoodie Chris mcdona he's wearing later the same hoodie.

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Speaker 2: Time stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us I profile psychoanalyst out of

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Speaker 1: Beverly Hills at Dr Bethany Marshall dot com.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany I.

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Speaker 1: Had a drug lord who was spotted in surveillance video

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Speaker 1: and he had on AHA Michael Jackson, a red leather

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Speaker 1: pants and jacket. Guess what he wore to court. This

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Speaker 1: was an a surreptitious deal with the c I confidential

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Speaker 1: informant and there he was. You couldn't see his face,

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Speaker 1: but you could see his outfit. He wore the same

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Speaker 1: thing to court. That made my job so easy but

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Speaker 1: that said the same hoodie it was that it wasn't

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Speaker 1: a blue jacket, said, yeah, the same jacket like outdoor,

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Speaker 1: not Patagonia, but like a Patagonia.

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Speaker 2: There's one like that. He was wearing the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Later, well that was described, And what about the composite.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just there's just so much evidence. And

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Speaker 1: now we hear sons of Odin.

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Speaker 10: And it tells me that there's this deeply ingrained culture

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Speaker 10: in that area where when there's a crime, everybody wants

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Speaker 10: to inject themselves into the notoriety. And in a way,

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Speaker 10: this has become like an urban myth for that area

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Speaker 10: of the world. And I'm sure there's a lot of

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Speaker 10: chatter online about who did it, how and why and

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Speaker 10: were they a member of a cult and if so,

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Speaker 10: what called was it? And it becomes in a way

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Speaker 10: of form of entertainment for a certain group of people.

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Speaker 10: It becomes enlivening, it becomes stimulating, and it becomes so

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Speaker 10: interesting and entertaining to them that they almost want to

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Speaker 10: imagine that they were a part of the crime, just

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Speaker 10: like you and I might go to a movie for entertainment,

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Speaker 10: or we might play with our children, or even just

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Speaker 10: sit around the dinner table and tell interesting stories about

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Speaker 10: our day. This is a very sick group of people

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Speaker 10: that even if they didn't commit the crime, they would

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Speaker 10: put out information as if they did. And the fact

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Speaker 10: that he wore the same hoodie. You know, again, criminals

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Speaker 10: are not the brightest bulbs for one, but number two,

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Speaker 10: if this was a deeply ritualized, sexually motivated killing, everything

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Speaker 10: he wore while he conducted the crime, it's going to

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Speaker 10: be really interesting to him. And in a way, you

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Speaker 10: might say he's wearing his trophy, you know, maybe, like

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Speaker 10: I don't know, a woman goes on a date, she

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Speaker 10: falls in love with the guy. He sleeps with his

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Speaker 10: head on her pillow. She now sleeps with the pillow

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Speaker 10: every night and smells the perfume, reimagining that she's with him,

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Speaker 10: even if he never calls her back. You know, there's

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Speaker 10: gradations of pathology when it comes to holding on to

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Speaker 10: totems and symbols and signs of something that was very

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Speaker 10: interesting and enlivening for you. But I think that's another

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Speaker 10: reason why he has the hoodie, is that that's what

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Speaker 10: he wore during the crime and he loves being involved

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Speaker 10: in it and wearing it, which is kind of sick.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Manisha Panday is with US chief forensic pathologist for

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Speaker 1: Forensic Pathologists in Ohio, board certified and you can find

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Speaker 1: doctor Panday at the forensic pathologist dot com, the forensic

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Speaker 1: Pathologists dot com. Doctor Mini Chapande, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for being with us. It's a real honor to have

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Speaker 1: you on. What would you expect to have been done

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Speaker 1: to the bodies these two beautiful little girls had there

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Speaker 1: been a ritualistic pagan murder, a sacrifice as they would come.

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Speaker 11: So if there was like a sacrifice or some kind

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Speaker 11: of a ritual, they would have some kind of So

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Speaker 11: first most likely what happens is they would probably be

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Speaker 11: killed and then after that post mortem they would set

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Speaker 11: them up in separate like you know, in specific days.

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Speaker 11: And it all depends on which ritual it is they

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Speaker 11: can use like some kind of you know, steaks or

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Speaker 11: some kind of terminology, some kind of you know, lead

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Speaker 11: things on the body, position them in specific ways.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering about the mode of death. We know they

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Speaker 1: weren't shot. We know they were killed with a sharp object.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that true, Mike?

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Speaker 6: Yes, And this new filing has the most descriptive, most intense,

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Speaker 6: I guess, description of the crime scene that I've seen

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Speaker 6: so far. And it does say that their throats were split,

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Speaker 6: which is what we've known for a long time, just

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Speaker 6: it hasn't been publicly released.

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Speaker 1: What more details do we learn about the murders from

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Speaker 1: this defense filing over one hundred and thirty pages.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, the crime the description of the crime scene is

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Speaker 6: what took me back so far. We had known and

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Speaker 6: we had been told that the crime scene was staged

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Speaker 6: in some way and that pieces from the girls were missing.

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Speaker 6: We had known that before, but this one described it

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Speaker 6: in great detail. How the girls were positioned in very

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Speaker 6: long were they positioned well, so Libby was naked and

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Speaker 6: Abby was wearing Libby's clothes. Their clothes were switched, and

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Speaker 6: I believe that Libby's clothes are just sort of missing.

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Speaker 6: They were put at an angle with sort of their

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Speaker 6: feet touching, but their bodies sort of going in a

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Speaker 6: different angle. And then they had sticks that were placed

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Speaker 6: branches or sticks that were sort of placed on the girls'

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Speaker 6: bodies in very distinct patterns. And then the really disturbing

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Speaker 6: thing is that there was some sort of letter painted

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Speaker 6: on a tree in what I believe they said with

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Speaker 6: Livy's blood.

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Speaker 2: She yes, Chris mcdonne and go ahead.

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Speaker 8: Yeah. So that's the defenses in the one hundred and

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Speaker 8: thirty six page motion. That's their description of the crime chap.

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Speaker 8: But when we read the arrest affidavit for the defendant here,

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Speaker 8: mister Allen, the clothing is described as being discovered in

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Speaker 8: some of the clothing in the water nearby the body.

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Speaker 8: The second piece of that is the other young girl's

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Speaker 8: clothing is away from her body. So the defense has

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Speaker 8: the clothing on Abby and Libby naked, and the arrest

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Speaker 8: affidavit has the clothing on parts of clothing on both

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Speaker 8: of the girls, and that some of the items were

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Speaker 8: missing and I and there was a lot of speculation

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Speaker 8: in relationship to what those items would have been, uh,

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Speaker 8: you know, and so that there's a there's a real

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Speaker 8: problem here from the arrest affidavit to this motion.

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Speaker 1: Of how these changed the changed, well, they defend ad

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Speaker 1: or it could have just been in I.

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Speaker 2: Could jump in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: To Chris's point in the the talk of mbellishment, that

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Speaker 6: is a that is a huge part of this new

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Speaker 6: defense filing. Also the defense I don't want to get

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Speaker 6: too deep into it. But the defense accuses the prosecution,

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Speaker 6: actually the chief investigator, I should say, of some really

437
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 6: serious uh you know, inconsistencies in this, changing witness statements, uh,

438
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 6: you know, embellishing you know, evidence and things in the

439
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 6: original Affidavid to search Richard Allen's home, the affidavit for

440
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 6: the search one. And so that's a big part of

441
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 6: this also, not only the description to crime scene, the

442
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 6: alternate defense, but you know, the allegations against the chief.

443
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: Investments, allegations of wrongdoing. Yes, speaking of law enforcement. According

444
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: to Allan's lawyer's LA, law enforcement explored possible links between

445
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: the killings and some sort of occult early on, but

446
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: abandoned the theory after speaking to an unidentified professor who

447
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: refeeded any possible link.

448
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: Would that be you, doctor Marbella.

449
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 7: No e, fact it was not, but way might interject

450
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 7: something red.

451
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 2: Do you know who it was?

452
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 7: No? I do not. I do not. And manager eve

453
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 7: be regarding human sacrifice, the history really quickly. If it's

454
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 7: done a human sacrifice, now, it's not done by hunting

455
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 7: and gathering cultures. It's only done in farming cultures. They

456
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 7: only sacrifice domesticated animals. And humans, never wild animals. Nobody

457
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 7: sacrifices a crocodile. When the belief system is strong, like

458
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 7: the ancient well the Inca, they offer the best. For example,

459
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 7: we talked about killing little girls. The Inca had the

460
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 7: Virgins of the Sun, in which they would sacrifice flawless,

461
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 7: beautiful little girls. They could even have a mole on

462
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 7: their bodies. They typically were under the age of ten,

463
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 7: and they were offered as sacrifices. When the belief system weakened,

464
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 7: they start to offer basically criminals and outcasts and POWs

465
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 7: when the system weakens. In fact, we still have this

466
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 7: will probably surprise your audience. We still have legal ritualized

467
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 7: sacrifice the United States today, our capital punishment. And this

468
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 7: is not just my idea. Historians to this for years,

469
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 7: is an offering to the abstract god of justice, and

470
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 7: we will take our outcast and pariahs and our criminals

471
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 7: and sacrifice.

472
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: White Hold on right there, doctor Martin Mirabello. Are you

473
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: suggesting that people that have been executed under the death

474
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: penalty did not commit a murder?

475
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 7: No, No, I'm not saying that, saying they're outcast.

476
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: Because when you say we're putting outcasts to death their

477
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: outcast because they committed a murder and they're in jail.

478
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, by the way, what we're doing here. See,

479
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 7: if it were a simple killing, they would find him

480
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 7: guildy in the court and someone would stand up and

481
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 7: shoot him in the head. If But when you kill

482
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 7: them ritually, that's called a comedy of innocence by anthropologists.

483
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 7: We're pretending we're not actually killing someone. So the district

484
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 7: attorney is not really guilty of murder, the judge is

485
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 7: not really guilty of murder, and the twelve people. I'm

486
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 7: not saying. I'm not taking a stand on capital punishment

487
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 7: whether we should do it or not, but we kill

488
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 7: them ritually. The Spanish inquisition was also a form of

489
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 7: ritual sacrifice.

490
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: Has anyone ever accused you of getting out in the

491
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: ways or getting off the road. Let's lea the Spanish

492
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: inquisition where it is. I don't have a dog in

493
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: that fine. I want to focus back, stare us all

494
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: back to this trial, this upcoming trial, and take a

495
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: listen to our friends at wl WT.

496
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 4: The defense says the February twenty seventeen murders were a

497
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 4: ritualistic sacrifice.

498
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 5: The defense is taking an interpretation of the photos, saying

499
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 5: some of the ways the branches were laid over the

500
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 5: bodies or symbols were left at the scene points to

501
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 5: ruins and Odinism and an Odonistic cult that was sacrificing

502
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 5: the worlds, And maybe with prosecutors it's a situation where

503
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 5: they feel like they have a different interpretation of what

504
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 5: all of that was.

505
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 12: Court document that Abby Williams and Liberty German were ritualistically

506
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 12: sacrificed by members of a pagan Norse religion called Odinism.

507
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 12: The Defense Rights the bodies of both victims had tree

508
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 12: branches placed on them in specific patterns, that one had

509
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 12: small sticks in her hair to resemble horns or antlers.

510
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 12: Odiniss is said to be enamored with Viking culture.

511
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: You were also hearing our friends at w NDU to

512
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall joining us renowned psychohanalyst, doctor Bethany, how

513
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: many times have you and I examined the practice of

514
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: killers who cover up the body, specifically the head, the face,

515
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: the hair, and it can come in many forms. I've

516
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: told you about one person that killed a young mom

517
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: and left her naked on the bed but covered her

518
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: head with a wicker trash basket. We see bodies covered

519
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: with blankets, with leaves, as in this case, leaves, twigs

520
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: and branches.

521
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 2: Yet somehow the.

522
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: Defense is aching out a sign of a sacrifice.

523
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 2: Explained to me.

524
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 10: You know, Nancy, how the perpetrator leaves the body is

525
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 10: symbolically important. So let's say if they just cover the head.

526
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 10: I mean, it could mean different things depending on the perpetrator. Right,

527
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 10: you'd have to interview that person and find out their psychology,

528
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,239
Speaker 10: what they were thinking at the time, if they'll tell you,

529
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 10: of course, And in this case, my first thought was

530
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 10: he drugged the little girls. You know, they were screaming, fighting,

531
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 10: he killed them, then he assaulted them. But this was

532
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 10: probably a very dirty scene on the ground, so of

533
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 10: course they have twigs in their hair.

534
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 9: Secondly, if he was.

535
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 10: Trying to cover up their heads or their faces, and

536
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 10: I would think it would be more along the lines

537
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 10: of something very childlike if you don't see if you

538
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 10: don't see me, if I can't see you, you can't

539
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 10: see me, like trying to cover their eyes, trying to

540
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 10: cover away for himself what he did, holding on to

541
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 10: the ritualized objects, the hoodie he wore, whatever he took

542
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 10: from the scene for his own sexual gratification. But in

543
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 10: terms of how he left them kind of clumsily covering

544
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 10: them up, it shows lack of care. You know, the

545
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 10: way that they were laughed messy. I mean, I think

546
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 10: that the defense is turning something very messy, thoughtless, treating

547
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 10: these little girls like they were just garbage. I can

548
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,479
Speaker 10: just kick them out in the woods and something kind

549
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 10: of fancy, like like putting antlers in their hair. You know, Nancy,

550
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 10: this guy was a pharmaceutical tech. He organized things, put

551
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 10: things on shelves all day long. He knew everybody in

552
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 10: that town. I'm sure he had seen these girls come

553
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 10: in and out. I'm sure that symbolically they represented something

554
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 10: to him. He had thought about this for a long

555
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 10: long time, and that this was a client crime of opportunity.

556
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:00,919
Speaker 10: They weren't the right place at.

557
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 8: The right time.

558
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 10: He did not know what he was doing. It was

559
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:04,919
Speaker 10: a messy scene, that's all.

560
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 2: Now.

561
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: I do see the concern from rand Longwell, which I'm

562
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: going to go back to doctor Manisha Pandey joining us

563
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: highly respected forensic pathologist. What do you make of the

564
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: girl's throats being slashed because you don't see that very

565
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: often as in autopsy. You see a lot in the movies,

566
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: but not a lot as causes of death.

567
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 11: So the girl's throats, anytime anyone's throat a slash, that

568
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 11: means the person who is killing them is pretty close

569
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 11: to the body and to that person. So that just

570
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 11: telling me that the killer is really close to the person. Look,

571
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 11: you have to be close. It's not that far away

572
00:35:55,520 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 11: person who's you know, who's murdering these girls. And it

573
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 11: looks more I mean very very I think it's very

574
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 11: aggressive in terms of slashing the throats. And I didn't

575
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 11: really read the topsy report, but the fact that they

576
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 11: were slashed means that the person was close to them.

577
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: And highly aggressive and highly forceful to do that to

578
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: two little girls. To Fran Longwell, former Deputy State's Attorney,

579
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: Fran you're right if this is to be believed. This

580
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: is according to the defense lawyers, the teenage son of

581
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: and Aiden Knite was dating Abby at the time of

582
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: her murder. According to the defense, I don't know that

583
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: I believe that, but according to them, I mean, Abby

584
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 1: was only thirteen years old.

585
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 2: I don't know how much dating was going on.

586
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 9: I agree, I think, and I'm wondering if that's just

587
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 9: not their way, the defense way of trying to pull

588
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,479
Speaker 9: this all together, that Abby knew this kid and they're

589
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 9: connecting all though, trying to connect those dots. But like

590
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 9: you said, I don't know how you explain that that

591
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 9: bullet found between the girls that we came from the

592
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 9: defendant's gun. I don't know how he's how he is

593
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 9: going to explain that. How do you explain that?

594
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: Because all the things you were pointing to Fran are

595
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: very they're going to be a problem for the state.

596
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,760
Speaker 1: I know it's a wacky theory to many the sons

597
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 1: of odin But when you piece together the way they

598
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: have cobbled together one hundred and thirty plus page document

599
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: about not only a Ledger wrongdoing but on the part

600
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: of Eli, but this Odinism connection, you get one nut

601
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 1: your are and you know they're up the creek without

602
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: a paddle. So all of this has to be taken

603
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: very seriously.

604
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: You heard doctor.

605
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: Mark Mirabello speaking to Odinism. The thing is if they

606
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: can can make if they can make the connection that

607
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: one of the little girls was Day and that's an

608
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: air quota. He's the son of an aid Knight, that's

609
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: a fairly substantial connection. I'm not saying I believe that

610
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: Odus killed the girls. I'm saying that's a real threat

611
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 1: to the state and they've got to take it seriously.

612
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: Of Course, my children, who are fifteen, say so and

613
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: so's dating. I hold on, what do you mean by dating?

614
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: What do you think that is? They they talk at

615
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: skill in they text, that's dating to them. So I

616
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 1: got to find out what this really means.

617
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 9: Frand Longwell, I think the other problem the state has

618
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 9: are these other witnesses that the defense has found, the

619
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 9: ex girlfriend, the ex wife. Why would they say these things. Well,

620
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 9: they would say these things to get the guys in trouble, obviously,

621
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 9: But if this group is so violent and what, they

622
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 9: would be putting themselves in danger by coming forward. So

623
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 9: that's kind of a weird thing. I thought, Yeah, you

624
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 9: know where one of them said she owned the guy

625
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 9: that the car, and the car came back with blood

626
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 9: on it. And it's just very strange. The whole thing

627
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 9: is strange.

628
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: Here's a lot of fires for the state to put

629
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: out in this case. This is not an open and

630
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: shut trial. We can all agree on that. If you

631
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: know or think you know anything about the Delphi murders

632
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: of Abby and Libby seven six, five eight two two

633
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: three five three five repeat seven six five, eight two

634
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 1: two three five three five Goodbye friend,