WEBVTT - External Exam - High Profile Cases with Criminal Defense Attorney, Alison Triessl 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:09.600 Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.560 Hi, everyone, welcome to this week's External Exam. So we've 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.200 been covering a bunch of stories on the news since 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:26.360 we started Mother Knows Death, and we always have crime 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:30.000 stories that involve things that have to do with bail 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:33.680 and charges that are filed and jail time and things 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:36.800 that Maria and I always question what does this mean? 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:39.760 And now I thought it would be perfect if we 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:44.199 interview an attorney who specializes in this. So we have 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:49.560 a criminal defense attorney this week. Please welcome Allison treesal Hi. 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:53.600 Hi, nice to speak to you. It's exciting, I know. 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:55.960 Thank you so much for being here. We're so excited 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:58.760 to talk to you today. Allison has been a criminal 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:02.200 defense attorney for twenty five years and has represented over 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.920 one thousand clients who were charged with committing serious crimes. 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.720 She is also a legal correspondent for Access Hollywood and 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:14.240 has provided legal commentary numerous times for multiple news stations. 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:17.160 So you are a pretty big deal in this world. 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.000 So thanks so much for being on my little show today. 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:22.880 It is my pleasure and I think it's great. I 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:24.600 think it's great that you guys are covering it. 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.520 So we're going to start off with the basics, because 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.080 I really have no idea what lawyers do. Luckily, I've 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:35.039 never been charged with a serious crime, so I guess 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:37.600 that's a good thing. But can you tell us exactly 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.840 what a criminal defense attorney is. 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:49.040 So it's an interesting job because normally people come to 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:53.000 me at the lowest point in their life and they 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:57.160 have had some contact with the criminal justice system, usually 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:02.920 law enforcement, and and they're either in custody, they've been arrested, 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.760 or they're about to be arrested, and I meet with them, 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.400 we walk through what it is that they've been charged with, 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:16.040 either in custody, you're out of custody. I practice both 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:21.120 federally and in California, so I handle cases anywhere from 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:25.040 a dui all the way to a murder case. And 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.200 you know, they're afraid. For the most part, they're afraid. 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.639 I everything they say to me, everything that they say 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:35.320 to their criminal defense attorney, has to be kept confidential. 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.000 A lot of people will ask the question, well what 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:41.480 if you know? What if you know the truth? Well, 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:45.520 it's so much better for me if I know what 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:49.119 actually happened, because then I know how to best defend them. 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:52.800 So if they're lying to me and I learn about 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:56.040 it for the first time from the judge or the prosecutor, 0:02:56.560 --> 0:03:00.800 we're in a pretty bad place. Unlike public deface, public 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:05.520 defenders are assigned to a person that's unable to pay 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:10.200 for a private attorney. I get paid ahead of time, 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.760 and one of the benefits is that when you meet 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.480 your public defender, you're normally meeting them as you're going 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:21.560 into court or while you're in custody. Most times I 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.519 get to meet someone before they go into the courtroom, 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:27.440 so I can explain the process to them. I can 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.639 reach out to the prosecutor beforehand, get an idea of 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.920 what kind of evidence they have against them, and if 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:39.840 there's anything we can do pre filing. For the most part, 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:42.760 you will not be able to convince a prosecutor not 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:46.080 to file a case, but you show up in court, 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:50.360 you generally enter a plea of not guilty. Our system 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:54.680 is set up that all defendants are presumed not guilty 0:03:54.760 --> 0:04:00.960 until proven otherwise. And it's interesting because it's not a 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.560 it's it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:08.400 So in our justice system, when people say, well are 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:12.560 they guilty. It doesn't necessarily work that way. It has 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:17.520 the prosecutor met their burden beyond a reasonable doubt. So 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:22.120 we can't rely on speculation or or it seems like 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.440 it's they possibly could be guilty. No, they have to 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:30.640 have an abiding conviction that this person did the crime 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.800 that they are accused of doing, and they don't have 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:38.479 any reasonable legal defense to the charge. 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.599 Now you said that they you really want them to 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:44.919 tell you the truth, and that it's kind of the 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.160 same thing with a with a psychiatrist or a psychologist, 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:50.960 that they'll that you could tell them things and they're 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:54.720 supposed to keep it confidential, except in certain situations they 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:58.560 have to report certain things that their clients tell them. 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:01.800 So does that ever work in your case if one 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.159 of your clients tells you something super serious that you 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:09.080 would have to report it to someone or it's always confidential. 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.680 Well, for the most part, it's always confidential unless they're 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:17.479 talking about an ongoing crime or they intend to commit 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:23.000 a crime. Obviously I cannot I cannot hide from the 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:26.640 prosecutor that they intend to kill somebody. I of course 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:30.800 dissuade them of that idea, but I do have some 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:37.400 duty to disclose acts that will be committed in the future, 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:41.240 but in terms of the actual commission of the crime, 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:46.280 what their level of involvement is, I am duty bound 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:48.280 not to share that information. 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:53.200 Okay, that's really interesting to know. So, Mike, before we 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:55.720 start getting into all the cases that we've been talking 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:57.720 about in the news, I want to get to know 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.760 a little bit about you and just how you became 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.120 decided you wanted to become a lawyer when you were 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:06.960 a child, Did you always want to be a lawyer, 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:11.479 and how you found out about this field and how 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:12.360 you got into it. 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:18.680 Sure. So, my dad was a psychiatrist and his clientele 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:25.839 mainly consisted of people that were drug addicted and obviously 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:29.640 the mentally ill and in some cases gravely mentally ill, 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:33.280 and so there has always been a level of compassion 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:37.320 for people that suffered from addiction. And in my practice, 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:42.920 although I handle very serious cases along with drug related 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:49.480 and DUIs, for the most part, the percentage of people 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:53.599 that I represent was some type of either drug addiction, 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:58.559 alcohol addiction, or mental illness ranges an upward of eighty 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:02.120 percent of the cases that I ham, so I have 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:07.120 I have a real compassionate side for those that are 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:10.720 struggling with addiction. So I didn't want to go to 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.440 medical school. I enjoy talking to people, and I always 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:19.440 found criminal defense fascinating. So I knew that the only 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:21.240 reason I was going to go to law school was 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:25.280 to practice criminal defense. I started working. I opened up 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.160 a phone book. I came home from college my freshman year, 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:30.840 and my mother said, you have to get a job. 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.120 You're not sitting home all summer. You got to open up. 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:36.400 You got to get a job. So at the time, 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:40.840 we had the Yellow Book, we had phone books, and 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:45.040 so I opened up pages under criminal attorneys, and I 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:48.440 saw a picture of a hand in handcuffs, and I 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:50.520 called that attorney and I said, look, I don't need 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.720 to make any money this summer. I just want to learn. 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.200 And I ended up working for him for years while 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:58.400 I was in college, while I was in law school. 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:03.200 Once I graduated from law school, and I helped prepare 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:05.640 him for trials. I worked on murder cases with him, 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.440 I attended court appearances with him. And so I think 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:11.000 it's always been something that I've loved. It's always been 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.360 my passion, and it's kind of stayed with me, and 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.200 it has branched out how I do legal commentary for 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:25.840 TV and I comment on constitutional issues related to the law. 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:28.640 But it's something that I've always loved doing. I've always 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:32.920 had a passion for and I believe I've always believed 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.360 that someone has the right to be defended. Our criminal 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:40.760 justice system only works when there's two sides. When someone 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:48.920 is defended and when a person a prosecutor, a judge, 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:53.040 a jury gets to hear their side of the story. 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:58.600 Cases are complicated. It's never a one size fits all, 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.520 and all the fans are different, and their stories are different, 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:06.840 and the levels of mitigation are different. So the fact 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:10.360 that I've been able to be their spokesperson for almost 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.280 thirty years has been a real blessing for me, and 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:17.439 I've enjoyed it so much. I represented all walks of life. 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:21.800 I've represented wealthy people, poor people, every kind of you know, 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:26.200 every demographic, any religion, and so every day is sort 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:30.560 of a new experience for me, and I go in 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.640 with the attitude of the prosecutors got to prove their case, 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.920 but also I need to do something to help this 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.840 person so that they do not return to the criminal 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:42.680 justice system. 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:45.760 Have you ever had a situation where someone has told 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:49.720 you their crime, and you thought to yourself, well, this 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:55.360 is really messed up, and like having a moral issue 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:59.080 within yourself to think, can I really represent this person? 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:02.920 They just did something completely heinous and I just there 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.360 may be mental illness isn't involved with it, and they're 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.440 just kind of pure evil. And have you ever had 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:10.960 that kind of moral back and forth with yourself over 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:12.280 certain cases? 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:16.560 I have, and I have been lucky enough to own 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:18.520 my own practice, so I get to pick and choose 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:20.840 the cases that I want, which is a little bit 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:23.640 different than when you work for the public Defender's office. 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:29.199 So years ago, I had a case where it was 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:35.400 a sex trafficking case involving minor children. The man was 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:39.400 a professor and it was a sex ring out of Thailand, 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:46.079 and the family offered me thousands and hundreds of thousands 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:49.680 of dollars, which is a lot of money, and I 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:53.480 just I could not represent him. I could not represent 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:59.079 him because I believe that he deserved better than the 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:03.680 defense I could, because I was so morally offended that 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:05.840 I turned the case down. I've also had a case 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:10.280 where I represented a cannibal and it was a similar situation. 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:14.000 I was getting threats from community members. I had young 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:17.680 children at the time, and again I thought that he 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.720 deserved better than I could give him because I was afraid. 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:23.920 And you can never represent someone and be afraid to 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:27.040 represent them, so I turned that case down. So I 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:31.360 have had occasions where, frankly, I had a woman came 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:36.040 out into her office and her child would wet the 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:41.400 bed and she would take the rod to use to 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:43.920 open and close the blinds, and she beat her child 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:48.480 with it. And I was so horrified by it because 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:50.040 I was at a stage in my life where I 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:53.320 was potty training my children, and I felt that, you know, 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:56.679 in those cases, you give them love and support and 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:01.600 not physical violence. So I frankly said to her, I'm 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.360 too busy to represent you. I wish you the very best, 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.679 but I'm not your person. So, yes, those situations do 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:12.360 come up, and I have to ask myself, can I 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.800 live with myself if I'm handling this case and representing them, 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:21.120 and do well I give them the representation that they deserve, 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:25.360 and if the answers know, then I decline. But on 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.840 the other hand, I recently represented a woman who was 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:36.920 accused of killing her two children, and I was absolutely 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:43.360 convinced that she suffered from postpartum psychosis, which is an extreme, 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:48.600 extreme form of postpartum depression. And she was somebody that 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.400 I believed, and thankfully sort of the prosecutor and the 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:56.760 judge that she was not guilty by reason of insanity 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:00.679 and that she needed treatment and not prison. And so 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:03.480 that is ultimately what happened in that case, and that's 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:05.200 one of the cases that I'm most proud of. 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:09.680 Yeah, there's actually another case of that going on right now. 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:13.040 I'm sure you heard of it, that a woman killed 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.559 her three children recently, and she was a nurse, and 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:22.240 she was on all this psychiatric medication, and they're trying 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.800 to say that she pre planned the children's murder. She 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.000 tried to jump out of a window and kill herself 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.640 actually after she killed the three kids. And when I 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.080 heard the list of medications that she was on and 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.640 the help that she was trying to get, and just 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.960 friends of hers showing pictures of her working in the hospital, 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:44.600 being a nurse and a seemingly normal minded person, it's 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.760 really upsetting. And I hope that someone like you can 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.320 help her not get in trouble for this, because I'm 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:55.800 sure she already feels completely terrible that this happened, and 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.440 being on all that medication, it's kind of not her fault, 0:13:59.480 --> 0:13:59.679 you know. 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:06.040 Look, in my case, this woman still wants to kill herself. 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.400 She was accused of poisoning her two children. One was 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.760 an infant, and she took the poison herself, and she 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.720 had repeatedly reached out for help. She went to go 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:22.600 see a practitioner who did not recognize postpartum depression and 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:27.600 psychosis sent her home. And this is someone that should 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:32.160 have been hospitalized. So we thankfully had a long documented history. 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.640 And this is someone who had done everything she could 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.520 too have a child. She wanted this child, she wanted 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:44.360 to love this child, and unfortunately, her depression and her 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:50.920 delusions and her postpartum was so crippling that she would 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:54.720 spend hours and hours just walking in circle. She had 0:14:55.040 --> 0:15:00.160 scratched much of the skin off of her arms. And 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.400 so this was, in my mind, somebody that did not 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:04.960 believe in did not belong in prison. She believed she 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:09.320 belonged in a state psychiatric facility. And to this day 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.400 she has to live. Even if she her sanity is restored, 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:17.200 she then has to deal with the trauma of killing 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:21.280 both of her children, So it's cases like that. And 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:25.880 also I've represented people who were factually innocent, so I 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:30.360 like to believe that there are certain instances, but for 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:37.920 my representation, they would be innocent people who were spending 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.680 all arrest of their life in prison. So for those reasons, 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:42.960 I feel very good about what I do. I don't 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:46.160 you know, there are cases that are harder than others 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:50.520 and have caused a lot of pain to the victims. 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:55.320 But for the most part, the stories that I'm told 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.160 are just so traumatic and awful, and they've lived through 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.600 such horror existence, and I try and get them the 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:04.280 help they so desperately need. 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:09.000 Yeah, sometimes you hear about these horrible things that even 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.640 people murdering someone, but then when you hear about how 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:15.200 they grew up, it's so terrible, even if they're in 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.920 their fifties. You just feel so bad that a person 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:20.920 was abused their whole life and treated that way, and 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.520 whatever their history is, that you almost feel kind of 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.600 bad that now this is the spot they ended up in, 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:29.600 even though they're hurting someone else. 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.720 Now, Yeah, I mean I recently covered and I'm sure 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:37.000 you've covered it many times, the case of Gypsy Rose. Yes, 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.720 because Gypsy was just released. And what was an interesting 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.520 what was very interesting or my takeaway from that case 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:48.400 was she killed her mother. She planned the murder. She 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:50.960 even knows she wasn't the one holding the knife, She 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:59.560 was instrumental in her killing. She however, however, she was 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.240 living in prison before she ever went to prison, and 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.679 why do believe that some punishment was justified? And she 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:09.920 will say the best thing that ever happened to her, 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:12.600 and actually the first time she ever felt free is 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:18.520 when she was behind prison walls. The circumstances surrounding that 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:23.439 murder were so horrific, and she did believe it was 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.359 her only way out and what she had been put 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:30.240 through and the trauma that she suffered at the hands 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:34.239 of her mother is unfathomable, something that none of us 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:36.040 would ever wish on our worst enemy. 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.720 Yeah, I'm actually surprised that she went to jail at autib. 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.359 I mean, this is why I have questions, because I 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:45.720 just look at it, like, I don't understand how every 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.760 single person that listened to that case wasn't like, oh good, 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:52.480 she should have killed her mom because that was terrible. 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:55.879 You know, it's an interesting case and she was given 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.359 the low term on a second degree murder, which was 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.119 ten years, which is the absolute lowest you could receive. 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.880 But it was a textbook definition of a murder case, right, 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.960 it was intended, it was planned, she participated in it, 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:17.760 and I did applaud the prosecutor for recognizing the circumstances 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:23.680 and even know the prosecutor was very comfortable in trying 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:27.280 a first degree case, meaning that they could prove all 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:31.439 of the elements of first degree murder. They thought that 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:38.240 the circumstances in mitigation warranted the lowest possible second degree sentence. 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.439 When I was in PA school, I had to rotate 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:45.760 at the medical Examiner's office for a couple of months, 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:47.840 and during that time I was able to go to 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.600 a court case for a homicide with the medical examiner 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.840 who was testifying, which I thought it was kind of 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:57.439 the coolest experience ever. It was like watching Law and 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.600 Order but being there and it was really surreal, and 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.280 that the way that the court case went down, it 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.680 was like this guy had he had strangled, manually strangled 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:13.120 his girlfriend to death, and I kept staring at him 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.080 the whole time. I was in the courtroom thinking wow, 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:19.399 like I know that this person murdered a person, and 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:21.959 it kind of freaked me out just being in the 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:25.920 same room with that person because I never experienced obviously 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:29.200 I don't maybe I've crossed paths with a murderer before, 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:31.760 but never have known it and been in the room 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:34.360 with that person, and it scared me a little bit. 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:38.920 So the first couple of times you met with one 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:42.600 of your clients that had KIT that was accused at 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:46.199 least of committing murder, did that ever scare you to 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:48.560 be in the presence of that person or to be 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:51.439 alone with that person just knowing what they were capable of. 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:54.679 Well, it's interesting that you say that, because one of 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:59.280 the things that burned I think my my passion for 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:01.560 criminal defense. This is when I went to law. I 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.480 went to undergraduate at Tulane, and one of the criminal 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:08.439 justice classes that I took, we actually went on a 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:12.480 field trip to Angola, which is a state prison that 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:16.719 has a long history of executions, and we went on 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:23.879 death row and I remember thinking, oh my god, these people, 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.120 these men are going to spend the rest of their 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:31.159 lives in these cells. And we walked by and I 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:36.200 watched them and they were many devoid of emotion or feeling, 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:42.520 and I was fascinated by it. And then I started 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:47.800 to spend time in jail alone with inmates that were killed, 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:54.199 that were accused of killing people. And I wouldn't say 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:59.600 that I'm scared because most of them are handcuffed to 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:04.560 something or we're talking through a glass. But I'm always 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:10.040 amazed at how little insight most of them have to 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:15.600 the heinousness or the finality of their actions. So while 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:19.040 they're telling me their story, it's as if they've removed 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.760 themselves from the event and they're speaking in the third 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:28.399 person as to what happened. So that's always been something 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:33.360 that's really fascinating to me. There have been other instances 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:37.240 where I have been concerned. I've had some people show 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:41.200 up at my home. At one point, I was representing 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:46.960 the head of a fairly notorious gang and he threatened 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:49.320 me and said, you know, if you don't get me out, 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:51.600 I'm going to do X, Y and Z. And I 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:53.679 said to him, look, buddy, I'm the wrong person for 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:55.920 you to mess with. I'm the only thing that stands 0:21:55.960 --> 0:22:01.480 between you and freedom. Someday I probably wouldn't not threaten me. 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:05.399 And once I took that position with him, we worked 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.000 out just behe. 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:11.320 That's that's scary. I mean, especially because you have children, 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:16.280 so people you hear horror stories of stuff like that happening, 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:19.200 that the person that you were representing ends up showing 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.080 up at your house or something, and that's just scary, 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:25.440 is it. So you've had to actually call the police 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:27.359 on people for showing up at your house. 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:33.120 I've had certain situations that involve the police. I had 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.480 one in particular, by the way, who was actually led 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:40.080 the police on a police chase to my home and 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:42.840 he led them here because he wanted me to speak 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:46.600 to the police on his behalf. So things happen. Things happen. 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:52.359 And I and I do represent people who without drugs 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:56.719 and alcohol or true schizophrenics. And I would say, of 0:22:56.840 --> 0:23:04.000 all mental illness, schizophrenia, unfortunately, to me, is one of 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:07.879 the most sad because it's like being a prisoner in 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.520 your own brain when you really can't control your thoughts. 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:15.600 And it's for me, my experience has been it's generally 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:20.159 younger men in between the ages of eighteen and twenty six, 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:27.520 and they've lived seemingly normal enough lives and then you 0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:31.440 know they're diagnosed with schizophrenia and in their early adulthood. 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:37.240 There are medications that help, but they they are resistant 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:41.080 to taking the medication and that becomes a major problem 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:43.719 because without it they really cannot function. 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:47.919 Yeah, I agree with you totally. One time I found 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:51.720 so I came across some video that said what does 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:55.440 it sound like to be a schizophrenic and be hearing voices? 0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:58.719 And when I listened to it, I thought, wow, I 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:02.199 can't imagine to hear it, because you know how you 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:05.000 talk to yourself Sometimes you're like, is that what they hear? 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:07.119 That kind of thing? And it no, it sounds like 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:10.760 another like we're having a conversation right now, and if 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:14.639 another person was talking a little bit louder over us 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:17.440 to try to get me to hear and just hearing 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:20.840 like all these opinions from all these different places, that 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:25.320 that alone would just would just drive you crazy. Yeah, 0:24:25.440 --> 0:24:27.520 you see these people walking down the street. We were 0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:29.280 in New York the other day and the sky walked 0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:33.679 by us and was just completely having a conversation with himself, right, 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:36.439 And I feel I agree with you. I feel so 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:38.960 terrible for people that are that are dealing with that 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:42.200 because they can't control it. And it's just. 0:24:43.640 --> 0:24:50.120 When I first started practicing, there was not the movement 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:53.320 there is now for the mentally ill to get help, 0:24:54.119 --> 0:24:58.160 and I think that the shift has been has been 0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:02.560 a really positive one. You know, of course no system 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:08.520 is perfect, but when you are addressing criminals who are 0:25:08.600 --> 0:25:14.280 mentally ill, if you can do something to help with 0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:17.000 their mental illness, if you can get them on medication 0:25:17.720 --> 0:25:20.880 and you get them so they're feeling better, they are 0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:23.639 much less likely to commit any crime. 0:25:25.520 --> 0:25:27.560 I have this big thing that I feel that way 0:25:27.560 --> 0:25:31.040 about mental health. And I think that if you could 0:25:31.080 --> 0:25:33.880 call and get an appointment as easy as you can 0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:36.280 with like a primary care doctor or something, to get 0:25:36.320 --> 0:25:39.199 mental health treatment, and it was covered by insurance and 0:25:39.240 --> 0:25:41.639 it was all treated the same way, I feel like 0:25:41.680 --> 0:25:46.000 there would be a ton less problems just in America alone. 0:25:46.440 --> 0:25:48.600 No doubt, no doubt in my mind, I mean no 0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:51.280 doubt in my mind. And you know, I'm somebody as 0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:56.560 a practitioner I can say there are too many people 0:25:56.600 --> 0:26:01.879