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Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy.

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Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome to this week's External Exam. So we've

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Speaker 2: been covering a bunch of stories on the news since

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Speaker 2: we started Mother Knows Death, and we always have crime

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Speaker 2: stories that involve things that have to do with bail

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Speaker 2: and charges that are filed and jail time and things

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Speaker 2: that Maria and I always question what does this mean?

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Speaker 2: And now I thought it would be perfect if we

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Speaker 2: interview an attorney who specializes in this. So we have

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Speaker 2: a criminal defense attorney this week. Please welcome Allison treesal Hi.

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Speaker 3: Hi, nice to speak to you. It's exciting, I know.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here. We're so excited

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Speaker 2: to talk to you today. Allison has been a criminal

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Speaker 2: defense attorney for twenty five years and has represented over

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Speaker 2: one thousand clients who were charged with committing serious crimes.

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Speaker 2: She is also a legal correspondent for Access Hollywood and

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Speaker 2: has provided legal commentary numerous times for multiple news stations.

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Speaker 2: So you are a pretty big deal in this world.

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Speaker 2: So thanks so much for being on my little show today.

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Speaker 3: It is my pleasure and I think it's great. I

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Speaker 3: think it's great that you guys are covering it.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to start off with the basics, because

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Speaker 2: I really have no idea what lawyers do. Luckily, I've

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Speaker 2: never been charged with a serious crime, so I guess

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Speaker 2: that's a good thing. But can you tell us exactly

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Speaker 2: what a criminal defense attorney is.

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Speaker 3: So it's an interesting job because normally people come to

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Speaker 3: me at the lowest point in their life and they

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Speaker 3: have had some contact with the criminal justice system, usually

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Speaker 3: law enforcement, and and they're either in custody, they've been arrested,

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Speaker 3: or they're about to be arrested, and I meet with them,

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Speaker 3: we walk through what it is that they've been charged with,

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Speaker 3: either in custody, you're out of custody. I practice both

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Speaker 3: federally and in California, so I handle cases anywhere from

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Speaker 3: a dui all the way to a murder case. And

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Speaker 3: you know, they're afraid. For the most part, they're afraid.

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Speaker 3: I everything they say to me, everything that they say

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Speaker 3: to their criminal defense attorney, has to be kept confidential.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people will ask the question, well what

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Speaker 3: if you know? What if you know the truth? Well,

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Speaker 3: it's so much better for me if I know what

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Speaker 3: actually happened, because then I know how to best defend them.

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Speaker 3: So if they're lying to me and I learn about

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Speaker 3: it for the first time from the judge or the prosecutor,

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Speaker 3: we're in a pretty bad place. Unlike public deface, public

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Speaker 3: defenders are assigned to a person that's unable to pay

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Speaker 3: for a private attorney. I get paid ahead of time,

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Speaker 3: and one of the benefits is that when you meet

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Speaker 3: your public defender, you're normally meeting them as you're going

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Speaker 3: into court or while you're in custody. Most times I

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Speaker 3: get to meet someone before they go into the courtroom,

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Speaker 3: so I can explain the process to them. I can

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Speaker 3: reach out to the prosecutor beforehand, get an idea of

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Speaker 3: what kind of evidence they have against them, and if

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Speaker 3: there's anything we can do pre filing. For the most part,

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Speaker 3: you will not be able to convince a prosecutor not

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Speaker 3: to file a case, but you show up in court,

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Speaker 3: you generally enter a plea of not guilty. Our system

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Speaker 3: is set up that all defendants are presumed not guilty

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Speaker 3: until proven otherwise. And it's interesting because it's not a

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Speaker 3: it's it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 3: So in our justice system, when people say, well are

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Speaker 3: they guilty. It doesn't necessarily work that way. It has

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Speaker 3: the prosecutor met their burden beyond a reasonable doubt. So

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Speaker 3: we can't rely on speculation or or it seems like

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Speaker 3: it's they possibly could be guilty. No, they have to

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Speaker 3: have an abiding conviction that this person did the crime

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Speaker 3: that they are accused of doing, and they don't have

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Speaker 3: any reasonable legal defense to the charge.

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Speaker 2: Now you said that they you really want them to

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Speaker 2: tell you the truth, and that it's kind of the

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Speaker 2: same thing with a with a psychiatrist or a psychologist,

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Speaker 2: that they'll that you could tell them things and they're

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Speaker 2: supposed to keep it confidential, except in certain situations they

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Speaker 2: have to report certain things that their clients tell them.

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Speaker 2: So does that ever work in your case if one

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Speaker 2: of your clients tells you something super serious that you

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Speaker 2: would have to report it to someone or it's always confidential.

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Speaker 3: Well, for the most part, it's always confidential unless they're

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Speaker 3: talking about an ongoing crime or they intend to commit

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Speaker 3: a crime. Obviously I cannot I cannot hide from the

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Speaker 3: prosecutor that they intend to kill somebody. I of course

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Speaker 3: dissuade them of that idea, but I do have some

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Speaker 3: duty to disclose acts that will be committed in the future,

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Speaker 3: but in terms of the actual commission of the crime,

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Speaker 3: what their level of involvement is, I am duty bound

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Speaker 3: not to share that information.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's really interesting to know. So, Mike, before we

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Speaker 2: start getting into all the cases that we've been talking

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Speaker 2: about in the news, I want to get to know

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Speaker 2: a little bit about you and just how you became

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Speaker 2: decided you wanted to become a lawyer when you were

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Speaker 2: a child, Did you always want to be a lawyer,

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Speaker 2: and how you found out about this field and how

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Speaker 2: you got into it.

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Speaker 3: Sure. So, my dad was a psychiatrist and his clientele

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Speaker 3: mainly consisted of people that were drug addicted and obviously

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Speaker 3: the mentally ill and in some cases gravely mentally ill,

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Speaker 3: and so there has always been a level of compassion

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Speaker 3: for people that suffered from addiction. And in my practice,

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Speaker 3: although I handle very serious cases along with drug related

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Speaker 3: and DUIs, for the most part, the percentage of people

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Speaker 3: that I represent was some type of either drug addiction,

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Speaker 3: alcohol addiction, or mental illness ranges an upward of eighty

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Speaker 3: percent of the cases that I ham, so I have

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Speaker 3: I have a real compassionate side for those that are

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Speaker 3: struggling with addiction. So I didn't want to go to

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Speaker 3: medical school. I enjoy talking to people, and I always

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Speaker 3: found criminal defense fascinating. So I knew that the only

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Speaker 3: reason I was going to go to law school was

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Speaker 3: to practice criminal defense. I started working. I opened up

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Speaker 3: a phone book. I came home from college my freshman year,

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Speaker 3: and my mother said, you have to get a job.

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Speaker 3: You're not sitting home all summer. You got to open up.

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Speaker 3: You got to get a job. So at the time,

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Speaker 3: we had the Yellow Book, we had phone books, and

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Speaker 3: so I opened up pages under criminal attorneys, and I

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Speaker 3: saw a picture of a hand in handcuffs, and I

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Speaker 3: called that attorney and I said, look, I don't need

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Speaker 3: to make any money this summer. I just want to learn.

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Speaker 3: And I ended up working for him for years while

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Speaker 3: I was in college, while I was in law school.

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Speaker 3: Once I graduated from law school, and I helped prepare

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Speaker 3: him for trials. I worked on murder cases with him,

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Speaker 3: I attended court appearances with him. And so I think

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Speaker 3: it's always been something that I've loved. It's always been

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Speaker 3: my passion, and it's kind of stayed with me, and

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Speaker 3: it has branched out how I do legal commentary for

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Speaker 3: TV and I comment on constitutional issues related to the law.

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Speaker 3: But it's something that I've always loved doing. I've always

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Speaker 3: had a passion for and I believe I've always believed

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Speaker 3: that someone has the right to be defended. Our criminal

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Speaker 3: justice system only works when there's two sides. When someone

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Speaker 3: is defended and when a person a prosecutor, a judge,

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Speaker 3: a jury gets to hear their side of the story.

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Speaker 3: Cases are complicated. It's never a one size fits all,

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Speaker 3: and all the fans are different, and their stories are different,

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Speaker 3: and the levels of mitigation are different. So the fact

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Speaker 3: that I've been able to be their spokesperson for almost

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Speaker 3: thirty years has been a real blessing for me, and

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Speaker 3: I've enjoyed it so much. I represented all walks of life.

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Speaker 3: I've represented wealthy people, poor people, every kind of you know,

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Speaker 3: every demographic, any religion, and so every day is sort

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Speaker 3: of a new experience for me, and I go in

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Speaker 3: with the attitude of the prosecutors got to prove their case,

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Speaker 3: but also I need to do something to help this

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Speaker 3: person so that they do not return to the criminal

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Speaker 3: justice system.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever had a situation where someone has told

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Speaker 2: you their crime, and you thought to yourself, well, this

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Speaker 2: is really messed up, and like having a moral issue

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Speaker 2: within yourself to think, can I really represent this person?

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Speaker 2: They just did something completely heinous and I just there

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Speaker 2: may be mental illness isn't involved with it, and they're

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Speaker 2: just kind of pure evil. And have you ever had

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Speaker 2: that kind of moral back and forth with yourself over

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Speaker 2: certain cases?

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Speaker 3: I have, and I have been lucky enough to own

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Speaker 3: my own practice, so I get to pick and choose

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Speaker 3: the cases that I want, which is a little bit

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Speaker 3: different than when you work for the public Defender's office.

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Speaker 3: So years ago, I had a case where it was

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Speaker 3: a sex trafficking case involving minor children. The man was

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Speaker 3: a professor and it was a sex ring out of Thailand,

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Speaker 3: and the family offered me thousands and hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 3: of dollars, which is a lot of money, and I

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Speaker 3: just I could not represent him. I could not represent

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Speaker 3: him because I believe that he deserved better than the

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Speaker 3: defense I could, because I was so morally offended that

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Speaker 3: I turned the case down. I've also had a case

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Speaker 3: where I represented a cannibal and it was a similar situation.

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Speaker 3: I was getting threats from community members. I had young

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Speaker 3: children at the time, and again I thought that he

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Speaker 3: deserved better than I could give him because I was afraid.

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Speaker 3: And you can never represent someone and be afraid to

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Speaker 3: represent them, so I turned that case down. So I

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Speaker 3: have had occasions where, frankly, I had a woman came

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Speaker 3: out into her office and her child would wet the

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Speaker 3: bed and she would take the rod to use to

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Speaker 3: open and close the blinds, and she beat her child

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Speaker 3: with it. And I was so horrified by it because

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Speaker 3: I was at a stage in my life where I

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Speaker 3: was potty training my children, and I felt that, you know,

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Speaker 3: in those cases, you give them love and support and

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Speaker 3: not physical violence. So I frankly said to her, I'm

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Speaker 3: too busy to represent you. I wish you the very best,

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Speaker 3: but I'm not your person. So, yes, those situations do

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Speaker 3: come up, and I have to ask myself, can I

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Speaker 3: live with myself if I'm handling this case and representing them,

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Speaker 3: and do well I give them the representation that they deserve,

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Speaker 3: and if the answers know, then I decline. But on

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Speaker 3: the other hand, I recently represented a woman who was

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Speaker 3: accused of killing her two children, and I was absolutely

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Speaker 3: convinced that she suffered from postpartum psychosis, which is an extreme,

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Speaker 3: extreme form of postpartum depression. And she was somebody that

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Speaker 3: I believed, and thankfully sort of the prosecutor and the

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Speaker 3: judge that she was not guilty by reason of insanity

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Speaker 3: and that she needed treatment and not prison. And so

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Speaker 3: that is ultimately what happened in that case, and that's

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Speaker 3: one of the cases that I'm most proud of.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's actually another case of that going on right now.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you heard of it, that a woman killed

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Speaker 2: her three children recently, and she was a nurse, and

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Speaker 2: she was on all this psychiatric medication, and they're trying

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Speaker 2: to say that she pre planned the children's murder. She

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Speaker 2: tried to jump out of a window and kill herself

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Speaker 2: actually after she killed the three kids. And when I

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Speaker 2: heard the list of medications that she was on and

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Speaker 2: the help that she was trying to get, and just

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Speaker 2: friends of hers showing pictures of her working in the hospital,

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Speaker 2: being a nurse and a seemingly normal minded person, it's

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Speaker 2: really upsetting. And I hope that someone like you can

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Speaker 2: help her not get in trouble for this, because I'm

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Speaker 2: sure she already feels completely terrible that this happened, and

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Speaker 2: being on all that medication, it's kind of not her fault,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 3: Look, in my case, this woman still wants to kill herself.

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Speaker 3: She was accused of poisoning her two children. One was

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Speaker 3: an infant, and she took the poison herself, and she

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Speaker 3: had repeatedly reached out for help. She went to go

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Speaker 3: see a practitioner who did not recognize postpartum depression and

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Speaker 3: psychosis sent her home. And this is someone that should

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Speaker 3: have been hospitalized. So we thankfully had a long documented history.

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Speaker 3: And this is someone who had done everything she could

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Speaker 3: too have a child. She wanted this child, she wanted

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Speaker 3: to love this child, and unfortunately, her depression and her

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Speaker 3: delusions and her postpartum was so crippling that she would

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Speaker 3: spend hours and hours just walking in circle. She had

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Speaker 3: scratched much of the skin off of her arms. And

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Speaker 3: so this was, in my mind, somebody that did not

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Speaker 3: believe in did not belong in prison. She believed she

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Speaker 3: belonged in a state psychiatric facility. And to this day

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Speaker 3: she has to live. Even if she her sanity is restored,

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Speaker 3: she then has to deal with the trauma of killing

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Speaker 3: both of her children, So it's cases like that. And

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Speaker 3: also I've represented people who were factually innocent, so I

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Speaker 3: like to believe that there are certain instances, but for

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Speaker 3: my representation, they would be innocent people who were spending

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Speaker 3: all arrest of their life in prison. So for those reasons,

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Speaker 3: I feel very good about what I do. I don't

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Speaker 3: you know, there are cases that are harder than others

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Speaker 3: and have caused a lot of pain to the victims.

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Speaker 3: But for the most part, the stories that I'm told

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Speaker 3: are just so traumatic and awful, and they've lived through

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Speaker 3: such horror existence, and I try and get them the

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Speaker 3: help they so desperately need.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes you hear about these horrible things that even

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Speaker 2: people murdering someone, but then when you hear about how

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Speaker 2: they grew up, it's so terrible, even if they're in

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Speaker 2: their fifties. You just feel so bad that a person

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Speaker 2: was abused their whole life and treated that way, and

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Speaker 2: whatever their history is, that you almost feel kind of

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Speaker 2: bad that now this is the spot they ended up in,

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Speaker 2: even though they're hurting someone else.

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Speaker 3: Now, Yeah, I mean I recently covered and I'm sure

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Speaker 3: you've covered it many times, the case of Gypsy Rose. Yes,

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Speaker 3: because Gypsy was just released. And what was an interesting

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Speaker 3: what was very interesting or my takeaway from that case

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Speaker 3: was she killed her mother. She planned the murder. She

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Speaker 3: even knows she wasn't the one holding the knife, She

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Speaker 3: was instrumental in her killing. She however, however, she was

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Speaker 3: living in prison before she ever went to prison, and

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Speaker 3: why do believe that some punishment was justified? And she

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Speaker 3: will say the best thing that ever happened to her,

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Speaker 3: and actually the first time she ever felt free is

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Speaker 3: when she was behind prison walls. The circumstances surrounding that

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Speaker 3: murder were so horrific, and she did believe it was

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Speaker 3: her only way out and what she had been put

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Speaker 3: through and the trauma that she suffered at the hands

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Speaker 3: of her mother is unfathomable, something that none of us

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Speaker 3: would ever wish on our worst enemy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm actually surprised that she went to jail at autib.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is why I have questions, because I

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Speaker 2: just look at it, like, I don't understand how every

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Speaker 2: single person that listened to that case wasn't like, oh good,

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Speaker 2: she should have killed her mom because that was terrible.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's an interesting case and she was given

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Speaker 3: the low term on a second degree murder, which was

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Speaker 3: ten years, which is the absolute lowest you could receive.

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Speaker 3: But it was a textbook definition of a murder case, right,

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Speaker 3: it was intended, it was planned, she participated in it,

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Speaker 3: and I did applaud the prosecutor for recognizing the circumstances

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Speaker 3: and even know the prosecutor was very comfortable in trying

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Speaker 3: a first degree case, meaning that they could prove all

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Speaker 3: of the elements of first degree murder. They thought that

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Speaker 3: the circumstances in mitigation warranted the lowest possible second degree sentence.

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Speaker 2: When I was in PA school, I had to rotate

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Speaker 2: at the medical Examiner's office for a couple of months,

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Speaker 2: and during that time I was able to go to

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Speaker 2: a court case for a homicide with the medical examiner

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Speaker 2: who was testifying, which I thought it was kind of

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Speaker 2: the coolest experience ever. It was like watching Law and

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Speaker 2: Order but being there and it was really surreal, and

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Speaker 2: that the way that the court case went down, it

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Speaker 2: was like this guy had he had strangled, manually strangled

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Speaker 2: his girlfriend to death, and I kept staring at him

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Speaker 2: the whole time. I was in the courtroom thinking wow,

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Speaker 2: like I know that this person murdered a person, and

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Speaker 2: it kind of freaked me out just being in the

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Speaker 2: same room with that person because I never experienced obviously

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Speaker 2: I don't maybe I've crossed paths with a murderer before,

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Speaker 2: but never have known it and been in the room

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Speaker 2: with that person, and it scared me a little bit.

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Speaker 2: So the first couple of times you met with one

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Speaker 2: of your clients that had KIT that was accused at

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Speaker 2: least of committing murder, did that ever scare you to

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Speaker 2: be in the presence of that person or to be

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Speaker 2: alone with that person just knowing what they were capable of.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting that you say that, because one of

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Speaker 3: the things that burned I think my my passion for

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Speaker 3: criminal defense. This is when I went to law. I

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Speaker 3: went to undergraduate at Tulane, and one of the criminal

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Speaker 3: justice classes that I took, we actually went on a

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Speaker 3: field trip to Angola, which is a state prison that

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Speaker 3: has a long history of executions, and we went on

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Speaker 3: death row and I remember thinking, oh my god, these people,

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Speaker 3: these men are going to spend the rest of their

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Speaker 3: lives in these cells. And we walked by and I

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Speaker 3: watched them and they were many devoid of emotion or feeling,

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Speaker 3: and I was fascinated by it. And then I started

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Speaker 3: to spend time in jail alone with inmates that were killed,

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Speaker 3: that were accused of killing people. And I wouldn't say

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Speaker 3: that I'm scared because most of them are handcuffed to

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Speaker 3: something or we're talking through a glass. But I'm always

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Speaker 3: amazed at how little insight most of them have to

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Speaker 3: the heinousness or the finality of their actions. So while

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Speaker 3: they're telling me their story, it's as if they've removed

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Speaker 3: themselves from the event and they're speaking in the third

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Speaker 3: person as to what happened. So that's always been something

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Speaker 3: that's really fascinating to me. There have been other instances

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Speaker 3: where I have been concerned. I've had some people show

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Speaker 3: up at my home. At one point, I was representing

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Speaker 3: the head of a fairly notorious gang and he threatened

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Speaker 3: me and said, you know, if you don't get me out,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to do X, Y and Z. And I

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Speaker 3: said to him, look, buddy, I'm the wrong person for

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Speaker 3: you to mess with. I'm the only thing that stands

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Speaker 3: between you and freedom. Someday I probably wouldn't not threaten me.

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Speaker 3: And once I took that position with him, we worked

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Speaker 3: out just behe.

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Speaker 2: That's that's scary. I mean, especially because you have children,

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Speaker 2: so people you hear horror stories of stuff like that happening,

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Speaker 2: that the person that you were representing ends up showing

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Speaker 2: up at your house or something, and that's just scary,

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Speaker 2: is it. So you've had to actually call the police

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Speaker 2: on people for showing up at your house.

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Speaker 3: I've had certain situations that involve the police. I had

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Speaker 3: one in particular, by the way, who was actually led

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Speaker 3: the police on a police chase to my home and

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Speaker 3: he led them here because he wanted me to speak

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Speaker 3: to the police on his behalf. So things happen. Things happen.

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Speaker 3: And I and I do represent people who without drugs

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Speaker 3: and alcohol or true schizophrenics. And I would say, of

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Speaker 3: all mental illness, schizophrenia, unfortunately, to me, is one of

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Speaker 3: the most sad because it's like being a prisoner in

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Speaker 3: your own brain when you really can't control your thoughts.

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Speaker 3: And it's for me, my experience has been it's generally

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Speaker 3: younger men in between the ages of eighteen and twenty six,

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Speaker 3: and they've lived seemingly normal enough lives and then you

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Speaker 3: know they're diagnosed with schizophrenia and in their early adulthood.

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Speaker 3: There are medications that help, but they they are resistant

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Speaker 3: to taking the medication and that becomes a major problem

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Speaker 3: because without it they really cannot function.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with you totally. One time I found

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Speaker 2: so I came across some video that said what does

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Speaker 2: it sound like to be a schizophrenic and be hearing voices?

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Speaker 2: And when I listened to it, I thought, wow, I

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Speaker 2: can't imagine to hear it, because you know how you

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Speaker 2: talk to yourself Sometimes you're like, is that what they hear?

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Speaker 2: That kind of thing? And it no, it sounds like

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Speaker 2: another like we're having a conversation right now, and if

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Speaker 2: another person was talking a little bit louder over us

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Speaker 2: to try to get me to hear and just hearing

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Speaker 2: like all these opinions from all these different places, that

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Speaker 2: that alone would just would just drive you crazy. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you see these people walking down the street. We were

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Speaker 2: in New York the other day and the sky walked

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Speaker 2: by us and was just completely having a conversation with himself, right,

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Speaker 2: And I feel I agree with you. I feel so

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Speaker 2: terrible for people that are that are dealing with that

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Speaker 2: because they can't control it. And it's just.

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Speaker 3: When I first started practicing, there was not the movement

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Speaker 3: there is now for the mentally ill to get help,

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Speaker 3: and I think that the shift has been has been

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Speaker 3: a really positive one. You know, of course no system

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Speaker 3: is perfect, but when you are addressing criminals who are

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Speaker 3: mentally ill, if you can do something to help with

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Speaker 3: their mental illness, if you can get them on medication

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Speaker 3: and you get them so they're feeling better, they are

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Speaker 3: much less likely to commit any crime.

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Speaker 2: I have this big thing that I feel that way

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Speaker 2: about mental health. And I think that if you could

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Speaker 2: call and get an appointment as easy as you can

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Speaker 2: with like a primary care doctor or something, to get

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Speaker 2: mental health treatment, and it was covered by insurance and

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Speaker 2: it was all treated the same way, I feel like

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Speaker 2: there would be a ton less problems just in America alone.

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Speaker 3: No doubt, no doubt in my mind, I mean no

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Speaker 3: doubt in my mind. And you know, I'm somebody as

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Speaker 3: a practitioner I can say there are too many people

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Speaker 3: that I represent who have had undie knows untreated mental

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Speaker 3: health issues for decades, for decades.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a hard I've dealt with that too

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Speaker 2: throughout my life. It's just like a horrible it's a

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Speaker 2: horrible way to live too, if there's a way that

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Speaker 2: you can get help for it.

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Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by The Gross Room.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to explain for everybody the awesome work

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Speaker 1: you do in there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the Grossroom is kind of it was kind

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Speaker 2: of born because of the extreme censorship that I get

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Speaker 2: on Instagram, and I made this blog that you can

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Speaker 2: join and you could subscribe to, and I do post

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Speaker 2: deeper dives into all of the news stories. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: last week we talked about NFL player Michael Williams and

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Speaker 2: his death, his untimely death at thirty six years old

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Speaker 2: from a dental abscess. So I do a deeper dive

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Speaker 2: into cases like that to show like what that would

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Speaker 2: look at like at autopsy and kind of go to

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Speaker 2: more details than we can get into on Instagram or

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Speaker 2: the podcast, especially because some of them are autopsy pictures

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Speaker 2: and stuff can be really graphic. And we also just

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Speaker 2: do so many things, like I was telling you that

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Speaker 2: the Southwest flight, we look at cases that a were

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Speaker 2: kind of high profile, and we break it down and

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Speaker 2: we show all of the photos that we can find

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Speaker 2: from those cases, but also just what things might have

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Speaker 2: looked like at autopsy when these people died. So I

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Speaker 2: think it's a really educational website, but we also have

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Speaker 2: a lot of fun. It's a great group of people.

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Speaker 2: You could comment back and forth to each other. People

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Speaker 2: have made friends on the Gross Room and we just

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Speaker 2: love it. And there's posts every day, lots of content,

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Speaker 2: lots of videos, audio. We do audio of a lot

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Speaker 2: of things. And actually we were doing this podcast for

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Speaker 2: like what a year before we started this public one,

437
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 2: So if you're interested in the podcast too, you could

438
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: go back and listen to all of the old episodes

439
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: when me and Maria were first starting out with this

440
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: and we're stuttering all the time. But yeah, it's it's cool,

441
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: and it's an it's just like a nice it's a

442
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 2: nice meeting place for people that like are into things

443
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 2: that are a little bit weird but want to learn

444
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: something too. It's it's it's awesome. I love it. Yeah.

445
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: So especially we have fifty episodes before Mother Knows Death launch,

446
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: you could tune into we read all of the high

447
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: profile and celebrity death the sections on audio. Today. For example,

448
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: I'll be adding a couple of pictures into this episode's

449
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 1: post for more information, So make sure to visit thoughgrossroom

450
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: dot com.

451
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: And you can join for only five ninety nine a month,

452
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 2: and if you hate it, then you could unjoined. But

453
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 2: you know what, we have sales once in a while

454
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: that you can join for only twenty dollars for the

455
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 2: whole year, and most people that start month a month,

456
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: they jump right on that because they just love it

457
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 2: so much. So see you in the grossroom. All right,

458
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: Let's get into some of the cases that I'm sure

459
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: you've been covered on all of your news channels as well. First,

460
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: let's talk about Scott Peterson that came out that came

461
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: out this week that just for for anyone that's unaware

462
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 2: of what's happening with that case he was he's saying

463
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: that he was wrongfully convicted in two thousand and four

464
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 2: for murdering his pregnant wife, Lacy Peterson, and she was

465
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 2: almost full term pregnant, so I think that he got

466
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 2: convicted of killing the unborn fetus as well. And that case,

467
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: I was like really attached to that case because that

468
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: was in my prime of being in school for all

469
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 2: this stuff, and I just and it just you related

470
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: to it just because it was a young pretty woman

471
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: who was pregnant and seemingly happy marriage by all accounts,

472
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: and she went missing, and it was it was crazy

473
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 2: how it all went down. But I think that he

474
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 2: was he was solely convicted on circumstantial evidence, right, Like

475
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 2: he had been cheating on his wife, and he had

476
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 2: told the woman he was cheating on her with that

477
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: his wife had died previously, and I mean, no happily

478
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: married man says that stuff, right, So that starts to

479
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: make him look a little bit shady. And then I

480
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,239
Speaker 2: guess her body and his unborn son's body washed up

481
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: right around where he goes fishing and stuff. So he

482
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: got convicted. And the first time he was convicted and

483
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: put they gave him the death penalty, and then they

484
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 2: dropped I think in twenty twenty they dropped the death

485
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: penalty and put it to life in prison. And now

486
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: there's this group called the Los Angeles Innocent Project who's

487
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: trying to get him free from jail because they're saying,

488
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 2: I mean, he's been saying the whole time that he's

489
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: been innocent. Right, based on what you know about this case,

490
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: do you think that there's a potential that he can

491
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: get out and that he is innocent? Or is it.

492
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 3: So there's a few things that are very important to

493
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 3: understand in this case. Just because the La Innocence Project

494
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 3: or the Innocent Project the Nationwide Innocence Project, and those

495
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 3: are two separate entities take a case of review, it

496
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily mean that the person is innocent. Scott Petersen

497
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 3: has always maintained his innocence. He's also claimed that because

498
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 3: he was having an affair, because his alibi was shaky

499
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 3: at best, they really the prosecution, the law enforcement and

500
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 3: the prosecutors put blinders on and really only considered him

501
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 3: as their prime suspect, and there were people that should

502
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: have been interviewed. There was a burglary that occurred across

503
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 3: the street, and so he has always said, look, you

504
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: solely focused on me, and you neglected to follow any

505
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,959
Speaker 3: and other any other leads that could have found the killer.

506
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 3: In terms of why the death penalty, why he was

507
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 3: given life in prison or not the death penalty, was

508
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 3: because one of the jurors did not fully disclose an

509
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 3: area that was really a conflict of interest for her.

510
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 3: So during va dayer, she did not disclose that she

511
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: had taken out a restraining order against somebody and she

512
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 3: was pregnant at the time, so the California Supreme Court

513
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: reversed and although the conviction stood, he was converted to

514
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 3: life in prison. With the invent of DNA testing, which

515
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 3: has really become sort of the new frontier, and the

516
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 3: Innocence Project as a whole, not just not just the

517
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 3: Los Angeles Innocence Project has exonerated about two hundred and

518
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 3: fifty seven people. Two of those exonerations was were based

519
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 3: on DNA evidence that showed conclusively that it was somebody else.

520
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 3: So the argument is there may be newly discovered evidence,

521
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 3: i e. DNA evidence that will point in another direction.

522
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 3: They have also claimed that his state and federal constitutional

523
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 3: rights were violated and they really did not interview or

524
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 3: follow up on many potential leads that could have sent

525
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 3: them in a different direction. So the La Innocence Project

526
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 3: has his appellate attorneys have filed a habeas petition on

527
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 3: his behalf, and in conjunction with that, the La Innocence

528
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 3: Project has also filed something saying that they will associate

529
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 3: themselves into the case, which means that they will assist

530
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 3: in his defense, and they have asked for a series

531
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 3: of additional information, interviews, that may have been conducted at

532
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 3: the time, and there's some claim that some of that

533
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 3: evidence that was collected and should have been stored has

534
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 3: now been destroyed. So they are asking the court for

535
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 3: the prosecution to turn over all of that evidence and

536
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 3: if they don't have that evidence to explain why they

537
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 3: do not, as well as this new DNA evidence that

538
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 3: they are testing.

539
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 2: So is it common? Because I do, although I pretty

540
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: much think that he did it, like just as my

541
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 2: personal opinion, just because of how he was acting and stuff,

542
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: and I'm sure that's why everybody else thought that as well,

543
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: which is why he got convicted ultimately. But isn't it

544
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: I do think it's kind of weird that they don't

545
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 2: have any They didn't have any concrete evidence like linking

546
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: him to that crime, and he was able to get

547
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 2: the death penalty like it. It didn't seem like they

548
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 2: had DNA or blood or anything.

549
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 3: Circumstantial evidence is just as strong as a physical evidence,

550
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 3: and you don't need a confession. So once there are

551
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: two phases in a trial in California, there's the guilt

552
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 3: phase and then there's the sentencing phase. Once guilt has

553
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 3: been established, the phase that focuses on sentencing, whether you

554
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 3: get life in prison without the possibility of parole, which

555
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 3: we call elwomp, or the death penalty does not re

556
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 3: litigate the circumstances of the conviction. It talks about and

557
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 3: it focuses on the person's childhood in mitigation, did they

558
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 3: suffer trauma, and then the circumstances in aggravation, and the

559
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 3: circumstances in aggravation after they determined his guilt. Right, so

560
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 3: you can no longer focus on whether or not he

561
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 3: was guilty or the strength or weaknesses of their case.

562
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 3: You're now talking about the methods by which the person

563
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 3: was killed, and the fact that she was with child

564
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 3: and she was about to give birth was a factor

565
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 3: in aggravation. The lying in wait, the planning of it,

566
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 3: the heinous nature of it. All of those things were

567
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 3: used by the jury to determine whether or not he

568
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 3: should have been given the death penalty. So it's not

569
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 3: something where you are allowed to sort of look back

570
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 3: and say, well, it was only based on circumstantial evidence,

571
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 3: because in a court of law, circumstantial evidence is just

572
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,760
Speaker 3: as strong as physical evidence in terms of a burden

573
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 3: of proof.

574
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 2: Interesting, Okay, we're going to talk about another case. This

575
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 2: one happened a long time ago but is still ongoing,

576
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 2: The butcher of Bella Rose. I don't know if you're

577
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 2: familiar with that case, but this happened in We talked

578
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 2: about this on other knows that this started. In nineteen

579
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: sixty eight, a teenage boy named Vincent DeRosa kidnapped and

580
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: murdered a four year old girl and stuffed her beaten

581
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: body in a suitcase, and it was she was missing.

582
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 2: They thought she was kidnapped, and then he admitted that

583
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 2: he killed her and put her in the attic or

584
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 2: in his addict in the suitcase. There was no actual

585
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 2: evidence or that he didn't They didn't have to find

586
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: any evidence. But there was no evidence of sexual assault.

587
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 2: So I don't really know why. He never really said

588
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 2: why he did it, because she apparently she was sitting

589
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 2: on the stoop with her mom, and her mom went

590
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 2: in the house to go to the bathroom and left

591
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: the kid outside for a couple of minutes, and he

592
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 2: just did that, and he was he was a teenager though,

593
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: so he was charged with manslaughter, served sometime in prison,

594
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 2: and was released in nineteen seventy five, when he was

595
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: twenty three years old. And then in nineteen eighty three,

596
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: he was drinking with any eighteen year old exchange student

597
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: who went missing, and that later on his bones were

598
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 2: found in the garden of de Roses house. His brother

599
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,439
Speaker 2: actually found them when he was gardening. So he got

600
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 2: sentenced to twenty five years to life for in prison

601
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: for that murder. And since then he served thirty five years.

602
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: And now the guy's seventy two years old and he's

603
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 2: getting released from prison again. So there's a lot going

604
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: on with this story. But I guess the first thing

605
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 2: is like, what's the difference with the with murder charges?

606
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: You hear first degree murder, second degree murder, manslaughter? What

607
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 2: are what do all those terms mean?

608
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 3: Okay, so I think it's important to understand that in

609
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 3: a murder charge, right, that there's an issue of especially

610
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 3: first degree murder is premeditation, but an intent to kill,

611
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 3: So there is an intent to kill. There's some subsets

612
00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 3: of second degree murder where your actions our sex that

613
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 3: you have a willful you have a knowing and willful

614
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 3: disregard for human life. But when he was a juvenile,

615
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 3: and remember this is many many years ago, I consulted

616
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 3: with a friend of mine who practices criminal defense in York,

617
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 3: and he said, look, the laws have changed substantially since

618
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 3: the seventies, so at the time and if you're tried

619
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: as a juvenile, if you're tried as a juvenile, there

620
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 3: is an age for which you must be released, no

621
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 3: matter what the crime that you caused, that you committed.

622
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 3: In California, it's essentially twenty five years old. So if

623
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 3: you commit a crime when you're sixteen, you can be

624
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 3: held up to age twenty five. And in that case

625
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 3: he served. He served seven years on his sentence. He

626
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 3: was sixteen. I believe at the time of the crime

627
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 3: manslaughter is is that you are pleading to something where

628
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 3: it was not an intentional killing. So you cause enough,

629
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 3: you cause sufficient harm to result in the death, but

630
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 3: you did not intention You did not intend to kill

631
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 3: that person.

632
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: Okay, So that makes sense, I guess because he had said,

633
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 2: I don't know exactly why he took the child, which

634
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 2: is alarming to me. Why would why did you even

635
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 2: take her? Kidnap her? But he did say that she

636
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 2: wasn't she wasn't being quiet, so he stuffed a socker

637
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 2: or something in her mouth. So maybe that's.

638
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 3: So that would that would be that would be an

639
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 3: explanation that he did not intend to kill her. It's

640
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 3: an unlawful killing, but without the intent to kill, okay,

641
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 3: So so that would explain a manslaughter charge. As to

642
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 3: the second charge, it's a very interest And again the

643
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 3: laws are different now. But when you are given an

644
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 3: indeterminative sentence, you must serve twenty five years. So if

645
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 3: you're given a twenty five year to life sentence, you're

646
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 3: then eligible for parole after you serve the twenty five

647
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 3: year sence. New York now requires that you serve at

648
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 3: least eighty five percent of the sentence before you're released.

649
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,399
Speaker 3: When he was released or now the parole board has

650
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 3: determined that he is fit to be released. They generally

651
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 3: look at your behavior while you've been in custody, how

652
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 3: long you've served, your age now, your health, and what

653
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 3: is the probability of recidivism. Now, what's interesting here is

654
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 3: that the family claims that they were not given prior

655
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 3: notice of his release and that they really didn't have

656
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 3: the opportunity to object to be him being released. So

657
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 3: although he's going to be in his seventies when released,

658
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 3: in a lot of states under these type of circumstances,

659
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 3: they may be held a lot longer than twenty five years,

660
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 3: specifically in California. If you're given an indeterminative sentence, the

661
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 3: likelihood that your paroled is relatively low. You do serve

662
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 3: much more than the base term of the twenty five years.

663
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: That's good to know because I'm just thinking, for well,

664
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 2: so the child that got kidnapped and murdered her brother

665
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 2: is still alive, and it's terrible that the family has

666
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 2: to go through this and know that this guy is

667
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: walking around yet again. But it's good to know that

668
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,760
Speaker 2: this is kind of a rare thing that it doesn't

669
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 2: happen as much that you would have a person that

670
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 2: killed two people that's walking around on the street. Now,

671
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 2: it's just scary for me, even just or any person.

672
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 3: And I think the fact that this is making headlines

673
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 3: and that there's a spotlight on this case, attention needs

674
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 3: to be brought to the fact this is somebody who

675
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 3: has proven not once but twice their ability and willingness

676
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 3: to kill people. So and there's no doubt that when

677
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 3: he's released, it's not as though he's released and freed,

678
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 3: he is released and placed on parole. There will be

679
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 3: somebody monitoring it. There are conditions of parole. If you

680
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 3: violate those, they return back to prison. But here a

681
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 3: parole bird determined that he had served thirty five years

682
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 3: of a twenty five year life to sentence, that he

683
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 3: must have he must have his conduct must have been appropriate,

684
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 3: that he didn't have a lot of violations or write ups,

685
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 3: that he probably took some classes while he was incarcerated,

686
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 3: and they felt that he had served sufficient amount of time.

687
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 3: That does not bring relief and satisfaction to most victims' families,

688
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 3: and so I'm sure this case will be highly scrutinized.

689
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 3: I'm sure that the parole board had a detailed explanation

690
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 3: as to why they believed he should be released. But

691
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 3: in my experience, this is the anomaly. This is not

692
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 3: common course.

693
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: Okay, because that was one of my questions. I'm just

694
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 2: thinking about the Lacy Peterson case. Like I told you,

695
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 2: I was really attached to it, and I just remember,

696
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 2: I'll never forget her mom on the news crying about

697
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 2: her daughter getting murdered and how chilling that was to

698
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: hear her, and then thinking about Okay, so at least

699
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 2: she got the satisfaction that the person that she believed

700
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 2: killed her daughter was getting the death penalty, and then

701
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 2: she had to go through years later of it getting dropped,

702
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 2: and now she's hearing this. It almost makes me feel

703
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: that even if a sentence is given to someone, there's no,

704
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 2: it's not always permanent. Like that's what I would have thought,

705
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: that it was permanent that was happening. And it feels

706
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 2: like victims' families kind of continuously get revictimized. I mean,

707
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: think about even this guy's sister that was killed in

708
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight, it's twenty twenty four and he's still

709
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 2: getting victimized by this guy. It's just really sad, right, I.

710
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 3: Mean, in many of these cases, they have to relive

711
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 3: the story over and over again. But in our system,

712
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 3: they do have parole and people are entitled to a

713
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 3: parole hearing. And on the flip side of that, there

714
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 3: are people who have made such great rehabilitative steps while

715
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 3: they've been incarcerated that keeping them there in debt definitely

716
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 3: would also be injust And I'm thinking about Leslie van Houghton,

717
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about the Manson case. Oh yeah, that has

718
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 3: been very, very controversial to people for many years, and

719
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 3: she had been repeatedly denied parole over and over again,

720
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 3: despite the fact that she was a modern parole for,

721
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 3: you know, for decades and decades. And so there were

722
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 3: people that came out on both sides that said, you know,

723
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 3: she is rehabilitated, she should be allowed to walk free.

724
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 3: And then you have Sharon Tate's sister who said, my

725
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 3: sister will never ever again be able to walk free.

726
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 3: She you know, the but for her criminal actions. I

727
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 3: don't care how old she was at the time. We

728
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 3: will never see my you know, our loved one again.

729
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 3: So there are arguments on both sides. One of the

730
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 3: things that is happening is some of these cases where

731
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 3: people were convicted as a juvenile in a in a

732
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 3: gang related case, or or where they were a conspirator

733
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 3: but they weren't the shooter and they were juveniles. Some

734
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 3: of those cases are getting revisited because the the Supreme

735
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 3: Court has ruled that it's cruel and unusual punishment for

736
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 3: a juvenile to get the death penalty. And they're also

737
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 3: revisiting these cases where women shot their abusive spouse and

738
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,959
Speaker 3: after years and years of abuse, they they shot them,

739
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 3: and they're they're reconsidering those cases and releasing some of

740
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 3: those women because under today's standards they may have been

741
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 3: able to use a self defense argument or a battered

742
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 3: woman syndrome argument.

743
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. I hate to think that people are sitting in

744
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 2: jail that, like, especially a woman that would be an

745
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 2: abuse by her husband. I feel that way that they shouldn't.

746
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 2: They shouldn't be in jail. It's just continuing the abuse

747
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 2: in a sense. It's just not fair to them. So

748
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 2: I'm glad that they are revisiting some cases like that.

749
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 2: So on your gig on Access Hollywood, which is super

750
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 2: cool by the way, I'm sure you talked about Alec

751
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 2: Baldwin case because that's all the rage with the Hollywood. Now,

752
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,959
Speaker 2: what are your thoughts on that. I have a couple

753
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 2: questions because I think this happened in October twenty twenty one,

754
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 2: and right away they said that he was going to

755
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 2: get charged with the manslaughter charge. I think he actually

756
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 2: did get charged with it, and then they drop the

757
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 2: charges because they weren't able to determine exactly if the

758
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 2: gun was malfunctioning or not. And now they're saying that

759
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 2: new evidence has come to late and they said that

760
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 2: a grand jury has decided that they were indicting him.

761
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 2: What are all those words mean?

762
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 3: Okay, Now this is a very interesting case, right. So

763
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:06,919
Speaker 3: initially a special prosecutor was assigned to the case, and

764
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 3: the charges that were filed were not in existence at

765
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 3: the time that the act was committed, so you have

766
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 3: to so one of the one of the initial attacks

767
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 3: from the defense was one that was a legal one,

768
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 3: which was, you cannot charge someone with a crime that

769
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 3: wasn't in existence at the time. Okay. There also was

770
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 3: a question of the special prosecutor posing a conflict of

771
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 3: interest because she was, I believe involved in some political position.

772
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 3: So on those basises, the charges were dismissed. As to

773
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 3: Alec Baldwin, a grand jury was the unless a case

774
00:49:54,800 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 3: has been adjudicated by the by jury and the person

775
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 3: is found not guilty, double jeopardy does not apply. So

776
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 3: even though they dismissed, they dismissed without prejudice, meaning that

777
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 3: they could refile the case at a later date. A

778
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 3: grand jury was convened and this grand jury found at

779
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:27,320
Speaker 3: least eight members had to agree that Alec Baldwin should,

780
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 3: in fact sheate face charges of involuntary manslaughter. And what's

781
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 3: interesting here is. If convicted, he faces a maximum of

782
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 3: eighteen months in prison. Is that Alec Baldwin has always

783
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 3: maintained that he never pulled the trigger. So not only

784
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 3: did he was he not in charge of the firearms.

785
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 3: Not only did he was he told repeatedly that there

786
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 3: were no live rounds on set. Not only was he

787
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 3: not he wasn't the one who loaded the firearm. He's saying,

788
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 3: I didn't even pull the trigger. So they then have

789
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 3: a new ballistics expert go and retest the gun, but

790
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 3: in order to do that, they had to disassemble the gun.

791
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,839
Speaker 3: And this person has opined that there must have been

792
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 3: at least two pounds of pressure on the trigger and

793
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 3: therefore he must have pulled the trigger, and on that

794
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 3: basis they have filed this case against him.

795
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean, of course he did. He's not

796
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 2: going to say. I just keep saying like he's going

797
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,240
Speaker 2: to say whatever he could say to cover his ass.

798
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 2: I mean, that's I'm sure he feels terrible about it.

799
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 2: But do you do you think that he will actually

800
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:53,359
Speaker 2: serve this eighteen months in prison if he ever, if

801
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 2: he ever really gets convicted, do you think that that

802
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 2: would actually happen?

803
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 3: If he gets convicted, I do not believe that he

804
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,800
Speaker 3: will serve any time. I think he'll be placed on probation.

805
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 3: He has no criminal history, and given the facts of

806
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 3: the case, this is certainly not an intentional or wilful act.

807
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 3: Was it a reckless act?

808
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: Maybe?

809
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 3: I think that there'll be a battle of the experts

810
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 3: and what's common in the community and was this in

811
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 3: fact reckless or was there a wilful disregard for human life.

812
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 3: We have to remember that there were concerns about the

813
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 3: safety on the set. We also know that these guns

814
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 3: were taken out and used as firing practice. I think

815
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 3: Hannah gutierres Reeds, who is the armor on the set,

816
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 3: has a much more difficult case because she was in

817
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 3: charge of the weaponry. But al Baldwin was also the producer,

818
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 3: so he does he does have some responsibility to ensure

819
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 3: that that was a safe set that everybody was working on.

820
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 3: But I do believe that in a case like this,

821
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 3: the prosecution does have an fpill battle convincing twelve jurors

822
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 3: beyond a reasonable doubt that Alec Baldwin, who didn't load

823
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:21,839
Speaker 3: the firearm, who someone handed him the gun, reassured them

824
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 3: there was no lie bullets, that he acted in willful

825
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 3: disregard of the safety of others negligence, which is a

826
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 3: lesser included charge potentially, but in terms of the more

827
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 3: serious felonious act, I'm not sure they'll get a conviction.

828
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I don't like him and his wife.

829
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 2: They're just kind of annoying people. But I think this

830
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 2: it's just I go back and forth because my husband's

831
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 2: a firearm person and he always says, you know, you

832
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 2: should never point it out a person unless you're ready

833
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 2: to kill them. You just don't. And whenever he's shown

834
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 2: me how to shoot, when we go to range or something,

835
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 2: he always shows me where to put my finger on

836
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 2: the side, and he's like, you just there's no reason

837
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 2: to ever put your finger on the trigger, and you

838
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,479
Speaker 2: just don't do that, even if it's with a fake

839
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,800
Speaker 2: gun or any It's just it's etiquette when you're holding

840
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:21,359
Speaker 2: the weapon. So I understand that he shouldn't have been

841
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 2: doing that, But if he was doing a shot where

842
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 2: he was supposed to look like he was shooting the gun,

843
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 2: then his finger would obviously be on the trigger. That's

844
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 2: not unusual, and that's why I think it will cut.

845
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 3: That's why I do think it'll come down the battle

846
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 3: of the experts. I think that the prosecution is going

847
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 3: to show that this that this was very reckless, that

848
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 3: this was it was standard in the community to never fire,

849
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 3: to never point the gun at somebody, that it was

850
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 3: his duty, not just as an actor, as a producer.

851
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 3: And then you're going to have the defense arguing, first

852
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 3: of all, the gun that they gun, that this expert tested,

853
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 3: has been substantially deconstructed, and so it is impossible to

854
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 3: opine that this is exactly what happened on that day

855
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 3: because the gun has been modified, and not only that

856
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 3: it is not standard in the community for the actor

857
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 3: who has already been assured that there are no live

858
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 3: bullets and was not the one that loaded, and was

859
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 3: assured by the people who are supposed to be the

860
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 3: experts this is fine, and told to point at the

861
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 3: person that he did in willful disregard. Was it negligent?

862
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I think that this is going

863
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,359
Speaker 3: to be a very interesting question for the jury if

864
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:50,359
Speaker 3: it ever gets there. But I don't foresee him doing

865
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 3: any jail time on a case like this.

866
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 2: Do you do you think it's weird and maybe this

867
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 2: has come up and I just haven't heard it, But

868
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 2: there was a couple of cameras in front of this

869
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 2: dude when this happened. None of the film was rolling,

870
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 2: and just they could just go back and say, Okay,

871
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 2: he did have his finger on a trick, or we'll

872
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 2: look at because he was pointing right at the camera

873
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 2: when when this happened.

874
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 3: That's a great question. I don't know the answer. I

875
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 3: have not read anywhere that they actually have video footage

876
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,720
Speaker 3: of the actual incident. But that's something and of course

877
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 3: both sides will want to know if there's anything like that,

878
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 3: because you want to you want to you know, slow

879
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 3: it to frame by frame. That's you know, that may

880
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 3: be very helpful the prosecution or the defense. So I'm

881
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:35,760
Speaker 3: sure they've looked into it.

882
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 2: Well before we wrap up today, I just are you

883
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:41,919
Speaker 2: working on any other projects? I know that you're a mom,

884
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 2: you have a practice, you're a legal correspondent, you do

885
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 2: all this stuff. Are you working on anything else that

886
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 2: you want to share with us? You know?

887
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 3: I I thankfully, I'm super busy. I have a very

888
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 3: active criminal practice. Our firm probably has about sixty open cases,

889
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 3: so I I love doing that. I have worked for

890
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 3: Access Hollywood for a number of years. I have a

891
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 3: segment called Trending with Triso with Mario Lopez. I work

892
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 3: for KTLA and Next Star. And you know, I'm honored.

893
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 3: I'm honored that people like yourself asked me to come

894
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 3: on and get my legal thoughts about things. I think

895
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 3: that true crime is something that we can all appreciate

896
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 3: and enjoy and try and understand. And you know, thank

897
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 3: you for having me.

898
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for being here. You really explain things in

899
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 2: a way for me to understand, which is awesome because

900
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people hear these words on

901
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 2: the news all the time and we're like, what the

902
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 2: hell does this mean? So yeah, thank you, Thank you

903
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:47,479
Speaker 2: so much.

904
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 3: Pleasure, so nice. Thank you, have a great.

905
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 2: Day, you too. Thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death.

906
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 2: As a reminder, my training is as a pathologist's assistant.

907
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 2: I have a master's level education and specialize in anatomy

908
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 2: and pathology education. I am not a doctor, and I

909
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 2: have not diagnosed or treated anyone dead or alive without

910
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 2: the assistance of a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website,

911
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 2: and social media accounts are designed to educate and inform

912
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 2: people based on my experience working in pathology so they

913
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 2: can make healthier decisions regarding their life and well being.

914
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 2: Always remember that science is changing every day and the

915
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 2: opinions expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge

916
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 2: of those subjects at the time of publication. If you

917
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 2: are having a medical problem, have a medical question, or

918
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 2: having a medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit

919
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 2: an urgent care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review,

920
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 2: and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

921
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 2: or anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks