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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You

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Speaker 1: Need Therapy. My name is Kat and I have recorded

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Speaker 1: this intro about fifteen times, so be with me in

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Speaker 1: this moment. If you are new, welcome, I'm so glad

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Speaker 1: you're here. And before we get going, I just want

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Speaker 1: to give the little disclaimer that this is not therapy.

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Speaker 1: This is just a podcast where a therapist is talking

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Speaker 1: about a lot of different things. Before we get into

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Speaker 1: the episode, I'm like so excited to talk about the episode.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's why I keep messing the intro up. But

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Speaker 1: before we get going, I just want to give a

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Speaker 1: little shout out to an event that is happening in Nashville,

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Speaker 1: and it is called the Songs to End All's a

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Speaker 1: night benefiting the Longest Day in the Alzheimer's Association. It

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Speaker 1: is a free event. It is on Sunday, June at

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Speaker 1: Live Oak. The doors open up five. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: put the links in the show notes. If you want

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Speaker 1: to be a part of this or just learn more,

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Speaker 1: you can go there. But it's going to be a

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Speaker 1: songwriter style night and I'll read some of the people

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Speaker 1: that are going to be their current artists include Jay Allen,

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Speaker 1: Kylie Morgan, Zack Stone, Sam do Rosa, Tiger, Lily After, Midtown,

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Speaker 1: Jason Knicks, Kyle Jacobs just to name a few. There's more.

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Speaker 1: There's more names. But it's a really cool event and

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Speaker 1: this causes really dear to my heart. Alzheimer's affects a

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Speaker 1: lot of people, and it has affected people that I

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Speaker 1: love and care about, and so I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: share this event. If you want to learn more again

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Speaker 1: show notes, go look at them. Now, let's get into it.

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Speaker 1: God works in mysterious ways. You know, God just like

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Speaker 1: knows what he's doing sometimes. You know. My guest today

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Speaker 1: is my friend Max Max Berry, and he is somebody

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Speaker 1: that I have gotten closer with over the past probably

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Speaker 1: six months, but I've known for a couple of years.

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Speaker 1: We've been talking about him coming on the podcast for

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Speaker 1: a couple of months and then you'll hear in the conversation.

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Speaker 1: But I was reading this book and I was like,

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about this with you, and so

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Speaker 1: we're let's do the podcast, like let's talk about on

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Speaker 1: the podcast. And it just so happens that we recorded

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Speaker 1: this and it's Pride Month, which I just means even

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Speaker 1: more to me that we're doing this on Pride Month

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Speaker 1: to help support that as well. So again, my my

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Speaker 1: guest name is Max Barry. He's amazing. He teaches at

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Speaker 1: Full Ride with me. He's an awesome, awesome fitness instructor

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Speaker 1: and even more awesome human. And he got very open

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Speaker 1: with me, and I'm just so grateful for that. He

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Speaker 1: was very open with me and this conversation, and I

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Speaker 1: even learned a lot about him through this conversation. And

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Speaker 1: we just started talking about masculinity and sexuality and and

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Speaker 1: the problems with toxic masculinity and how it separates people

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Speaker 1: and creates hierarchies. And he really talked about his experience

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Speaker 1: of coming out and what that was like. And I

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Speaker 1: was gonna stop because the episode will do the talking,

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Speaker 1: but I'm just so happy to have this conversation out there.

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Speaker 1: I think that this is a conversation for anyone because

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about at the end of the day

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Speaker 1: is humanity and we're all a part of that. So

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Speaker 1: I want to say thank you Max for doing this,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being open, thank you for being yourself,

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Speaker 1: and thank you for choosing yourself to choose to be yourself,

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Speaker 1: because some of us choose to be other people and

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Speaker 1: we miss out and I don't have to miss out

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Speaker 1: on you because you've chosen to be yourself, and I

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Speaker 1: just am really grateful for that because also it's not

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Speaker 1: easy for us to choose ourselves. So you're gonna love

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Speaker 1: Max as much as I love Max. So let's not

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Speaker 1: waste any more time. Here. He is here, I am.

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Speaker 1: Here's my conversation with my friend Max. All Right, guys,

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Speaker 1: I have a very special guest, and I don't always

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Speaker 1: say that. He just said, this is the first podcast

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Speaker 1: he's ever been on, which is a huge deal. But

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Speaker 1: he is my friend that I met in February. Well,

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Speaker 1: I met you a while ago. We actually have known

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Speaker 1: each other technically for a long time. Yeah, okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, this is Max. So I like to

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Speaker 1: talk about first impressions. So I met you probably two years.

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Speaker 1: Three years would be three years? It was was it

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Speaker 1: Sculpts House? Yeah? So yeah, okay. So Max was a

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Speaker 1: trainer at a studio r I Pate, and I remember

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Speaker 1: I would only go to Anne Marie's class, and ADDIE's

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Speaker 1: class would go to her. But I really just was

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Speaker 1: a stickler for her, which Anne Marie has been on

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Speaker 1: the podcast before she did an episode on Fitness Culture.

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Speaker 1: She's were obsessed with her here, right, And I think

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Speaker 1: that you taught like at eight thirty or something, and

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Speaker 1: I could go between clients. I don't know. The point

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Speaker 1: is I went and I was like, Oh, who's this

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Speaker 1: Max guy? And I left and I texted Anne Marie

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Speaker 1: and I was like, a Marie, that guy is great.

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Speaker 1: I was like happy during that and it was a

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Speaker 1: type of exercise that wasn't my favorite, Like I enjoyed it,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't like exciting for me. And I was

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Speaker 1: like I was smiling, and she was like, yeah, he's great.

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Speaker 1: And then two years later, now we worked together and

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Speaker 1: here we are. Here we are so Max works at

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Speaker 1: full ride with me as an instructor. If you're in

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Speaker 1: Nashville and you haven't been, come take my class and

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Speaker 1: then go take this reply correct. We've been talking about

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Speaker 1: having you on here for a while and kind of like,

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Speaker 1: I don't really know what we would talk about, Like

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Speaker 1: we'll figure it out though, because obviously it'll come, it'll come.

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Speaker 1: And then I was reading this book titled Man Enough

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Speaker 1: and it's written by Justin Baldoni. So did you know

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Speaker 1: who this guy? Was he plays Raphael and Jane the Virgin,

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Speaker 1: and I never really watched that show. Now I'm watching

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Speaker 1: it and it's actually very good. So he wrote this

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Speaker 1: book and it's called Man Enough, and it was about

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Speaker 1: toxic masculinity. And I'm listening to this book. I listened

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Speaker 1: to it in the morning. I was getting ready and

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Speaker 1: it felt like I was like hit with like a

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Speaker 1: ton of bricks on my face as I'm listening to

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Speaker 1: him describe some of these things and how masculinity is

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Speaker 1: portrayed and advertised and encouraged in our culture. And I think, I,

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Speaker 1: did I text you or I talked to you in person?

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Speaker 1: You mentioned it to me. I think I had seen

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Speaker 1: that you posted something about it, okay, and I just

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Speaker 1: was like, I have to talk about this, yea. So

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Speaker 1: we're talking before. I don't really know how to ask

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Speaker 1: the questions that are in my head because they're not questions,

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Speaker 1: they're just like jumbled thoughts. So I think what I

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Speaker 1: want to start with is one everybody should go read

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Speaker 1: that book. I don't care if you're a man or not,

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Speaker 1: I don't care what you are. Go read the book

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Speaker 1: because it applies to everybody. Let's start with how has

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Speaker 1: masculinity been defined and shown to you? How have you

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Speaker 1: experienced it? What does it mean? All of those things?

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Speaker 1: I mean, it can be taken so many different ways.

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Speaker 1: I think the way I interpret masculinity is how I

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Speaker 1: was raised. And for background for people listening my my upbringing,

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Speaker 1: I mean, my parents divorced when I was four, and

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Speaker 1: so I lived full time with my mother and then

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Speaker 1: I have two older sisters, and my dad was still

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Speaker 1: a part of my life, but there was always a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a disconnect between us, and that only

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Speaker 1: grew as I got older. And I always felt a

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Speaker 1: sense of safety and a sense of security with my

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Speaker 1: mom and my sister's but with my dad it was

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Speaker 1: always there was always tension. And so when I think

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Speaker 1: of masculinity, I think of all the things that he

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Speaker 1: wished I was that I always resisted against. When you

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Speaker 1: say tension, say more this hasn't been established yet. But

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Speaker 1: I'm gay, so I guess that also should be said.

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Speaker 1: And so grappling with those thoughts before I understood what

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Speaker 1: they really meant until later in life. I think that

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Speaker 1: kind of says it all, you know, because I didn't

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Speaker 1: know who I was, but he was pushing this to

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Speaker 1: be one way. Yeah, exactly, and clearly there was a resistance,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't know what it meant or what it was.

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Speaker 1: How would you describe your dad? Um, we don't speak anymore,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not upset about it. It's totally fine when

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Speaker 1: you felt resistant, Like what was that Like? He wanted

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Speaker 1: you to play football, honestly, as exactly, but it wasn't

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Speaker 1: football as baseball. That was probably like one of my

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Speaker 1: earliest memories actually because and this is sort of a

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Speaker 1: funny story, I was put into t ball when I

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Speaker 1: was probably five years old or something, and I always

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Speaker 1: remember this. My dad was always the one that would

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Speaker 1: push me anytime I would say I don't want to

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Speaker 1: do this, and he would push me and push me

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Speaker 1: and push me. And granted, in life there are people

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Speaker 1: that need to push you to do things that they

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Speaker 1: know are good for you, but this was a sense

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Speaker 1: of pride for him, and it was like, I was

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Speaker 1: a baseball player, you need to be a baseball player.

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Speaker 1: And also with him having two other daughters and me

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Speaker 1: the only son and also the youngest in the family,

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Speaker 1: it was kind of like, I guess in his eyes,

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Speaker 1: maybe his last chance that like I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: feel like there's also that that preconceived idea too, for

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Speaker 1: for those type of men that only get one son,

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Speaker 1: or even in stories throughout history, it's like the one son,

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Speaker 1: you know, the sun it's I don't exactly like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, there's some stigma around that anyway. So he

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Speaker 1: put me in t ball, and I I specifically remember

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Speaker 1: complaining to my mom that my feet were hot, likely

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Speaker 1: like I'm not kidding, that's literally why I wanted to

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Speaker 1: quit anyway. So at this point, my mom want to

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Speaker 1: put me in ballet, and I so wish that she

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Speaker 1: had done that, because you can you don't have to

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Speaker 1: wear any shoes. But anyway, so I remember that specifically

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Speaker 1: that you know five, that was at five years old. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was already just batting heads with him, no pun intended.

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Speaker 1: That's that's one of my earlier memories of him kind

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Speaker 1: of just pushing a certain view that he had on me.

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Speaker 1: And granted, I know there are wait, there are times

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Speaker 1: where parents need to push their children to do things

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Speaker 1: that maybe they don't want to do because they are

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Speaker 1: inexperience and they don't understand what could be good for

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Speaker 1: them in the in the future. But I guess in

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Speaker 1: that scenario that just was one example of where I

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Speaker 1: was right and he was wrong. I like that you're

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Speaker 1: saying people have to push you. You're not saying like

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be encouraged and challenge. When I

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Speaker 1: was growing up, I played played soccer, but because my

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Speaker 1: family played soccer, but I didn't have to. I remember

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Speaker 1: my dad saying, I don't care what you do, but

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Speaker 1: you have to do something. I don't care what you do,

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Speaker 1: but you have to have a hobby exactly. And you

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Speaker 1: didn't so much get that from your dad. No, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't a path of like, I'm an authority figure, I'm

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Speaker 1: your father. I'm here to coach you and develop you

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Speaker 1: and challenge you, but I want you to discover that

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Speaker 1: on your own. It was this is what I know

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Speaker 1: it's right for you, and this is what you're going

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Speaker 1: to do right and wrong. So what does that look

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Speaker 1: like As you grow older and you start to really

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Speaker 1: actually make sense of like, I don't want to do this,

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Speaker 1: this doesn't feel like me. As you're starting to make

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Speaker 1: sense of that, what does that look like? Well? I

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Speaker 1: think as I grew older, and a lot of children

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Speaker 1: that that go through a divorce of their parents. I

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Speaker 1: think most people it's pretty common knowledge that there's some

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Speaker 1: sort of like government regulation of like you spend this

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Speaker 1: much time with your mom and this much time with

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Speaker 1: your dad based on who is the primary parent. I

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Speaker 1: guess I don't really know the specifics of it. But

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Speaker 1: we didn't do that for some reason. So I just

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Speaker 1: saw my dad when I saw him. It wasn't like

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Speaker 1: you have to go here every other week. When I

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Speaker 1: was four, all all of my memories have to do

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Speaker 1: with separated parents and difficulties there. It sounds I guess

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Speaker 1: that sounds like it could be kind of sad, you know,

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Speaker 1: But in this I never knew anything else. So it's

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Speaker 1: not like I feel like I missed anything. But that's

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Speaker 1: just me personally. I don't know. I don't, I don't really.

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Speaker 1: I don't relate a feeling of like regret or a

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Speaker 1: feeling of missing out or anything like that. It's just

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Speaker 1: because again, like and and we haven't really gotten to

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Speaker 1: my mom's side. She is like an angel and the

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Speaker 1: best human ever. So the more I developed into myself

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Speaker 1: and my identity in my adulthood, I guess you could say,

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Speaker 1: the further away I moved from my dad. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this is jumping around, but I would

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Speaker 1: like to know. I would like to know this from

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Speaker 1: personally myself and just for the essence of the conversation.

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Speaker 1: But as a kid, because my experience is what I've

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Speaker 1: always seen is always what I felt, So there has

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Speaker 1: never been any confusion, right, So as a kid, what

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Speaker 1: does that look like? And what does that feel like?

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Speaker 1: And what goes on when you're like, Okay, I see

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Speaker 1: mom and dad and mom and dad and boyfriend and

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Speaker 1: girlfriend and this and that and what is that? And

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Speaker 1: then you start to I don't fit in with this

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Speaker 1: or that, and how do you then you mean of

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Speaker 1: like other people when I would see that. I guess

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Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is like, I've never had

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Speaker 1: to be confused of like why I don't feel like

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Speaker 1: this is me because it's always been what I feel like.

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Speaker 1: So what does that feel like? When you're I don't

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Speaker 1: even know if you can describe this, but when you're like,

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Speaker 1: but wait a second, that doesn't feel like me. What

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Speaker 1: does that mean? How old were you when you remember

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Speaker 1: feeling that? And then how do you actually figure out

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Speaker 1: what that even is? That makes sense? It does it does. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think the conversation that happens inside your own head

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Speaker 1: is really difficult to separate. I guess you know, when

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Speaker 1: you think about talking to yourself about something, when you

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Speaker 1: when you think about that rationally, then like a conversation

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Speaker 1: is between two people, right, So if you think about

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Speaker 1: talking to yourself, then are you splitting yourself into two

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Speaker 1: pop you know, It's like, but that's that's kind of

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Speaker 1: what you have to think, at least to rationalize that.

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Speaker 1: That's how I think of it. Right, So, as I'm

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Speaker 1: growing up, there's this side of me that I don't understand,

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Speaker 1: but that I feel resistance towards. And so as I

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Speaker 1: get older and as I'm able to develop, and is

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Speaker 1: that the true side of you? Yes, essentially that's what

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Speaker 1: I would assume. It would be the resistant side as

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Speaker 1: you get older and as you become more independent. And

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of this has to do with

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Speaker 1: like coming out and and you know, really just standing

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Speaker 1: in yourself and knowing who you are, because once you

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Speaker 1: get the closer you get to that, the more the

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Speaker 1: resistance of your past starts to make sense. So when

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Speaker 1: were you like, Okay, I'm gay. Was there a moment yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was. It was twenty fifteen was when I like

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Speaker 1: came out. I mean I definitely like knew that I

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Speaker 1: was interested in then Before that, I just didn't want

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Speaker 1: to accept it for a long time. But so this

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Speaker 1: was my sophomore year of college. I had medical that

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Speaker 1: I just had like intense feelings for and it clicked

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Speaker 1: in my head for some reason. I think at that

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Speaker 1: point where I was just like, Okay, I really like

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Speaker 1: this person and unless I decide that like this is

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Speaker 1: who I am, then I'm going to have to let

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Speaker 1: go or I won't be able to pursue him. And

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Speaker 1: it was kind of that at that time where I

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Speaker 1: was just like, Okay, I feel so strongly about you.

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Speaker 1: Hold up, because that means you've lived into your as

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Speaker 1: a straight male and that's not actually how you felt.

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Speaker 1: And I know so many people that have it takes

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Speaker 1: even longer than that. I guess maybe it's selfish of me,

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Speaker 1: but I'm like, I thought you were going to say,

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Speaker 1: like when you're twelve, because I wish that was. But

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Speaker 1: maybe that's that's my own stuff. But I think that

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Speaker 1: that ties back to what we started the conversation with

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Speaker 1: of like why it took me that long. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: then tell me the difference between the resistance you've felt. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: how do we go back to that? Yeah? Well, I

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Speaker 1: think because why does anyone not say it? Why does

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Speaker 1: why does any person? And this is not just men,

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Speaker 1: This is not just women, This is anyone whatever you

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Speaker 1: identify as. This could be anything regardless of sexuality. It's

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Speaker 1: like anything that's not the norm exactly, or anything that

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Speaker 1: has been pushed on you by people that you trust

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Speaker 1: or are supposed to look up to, and it's not

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Speaker 1: And again, like I we started off with the with

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Speaker 1: the relationship with my dad, which obviously everyone can tell

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Speaker 1: is not great, But it wasn't just him. It was

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Speaker 1: a lot of male figures in my life. And even

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Speaker 1: to this day, I'm not kidding, Like even today, I

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Speaker 1: can I can name a time where I felt uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: with like straight mail. It's just something that is ingrained

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Speaker 1: in me a little bit. And I think that that

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Speaker 1: just has a lot to do with with how I

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Speaker 1: was brought up. But to tie it back though, I

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Speaker 1: think it's just you know, like you said, what's the norm?

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Speaker 1: And like based on my upbringing, the things and the

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Speaker 1: people that I was around, and the way of thought

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Speaker 1: and I and I grew up in the South, like

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Speaker 1: very conservative, very religious in a lot of ways, So

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Speaker 1: just the ideas that are instilled upon you just don't

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Speaker 1: allow for something like that to be. Okay, what the

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Speaker 1: story that I'm making up in my head is the

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Speaker 1: thought in your head is I have to be this

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Speaker 1: way or blank? So what would the blank be? I

328
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Speaker 1: have to show up as this way or shame an embarrassment? Okay,

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Speaker 1: at least that's how I rationalize it. Like I like,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to put myself in in my prior to

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Speaker 1: coming out shoes, and I think to myself, like, what

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Speaker 1: would it feel like to to do this sooner? Like

333
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Speaker 1: high school? Max? Yeah, And that's that's what I'm thinking,

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Speaker 1: is like high school me like if I had just

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Speaker 1: told everyone like what what? What? What would happen? And

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm a firm believer where it's like

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Speaker 1: I don't regret anything in life. I don't. I don't

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Speaker 1: wish that I did things differently because I trust that

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Speaker 1: how things have happened have made me who I am now.

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Speaker 1: But I do think back and I'm like, Okay, what

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Speaker 1: would the consequences have been? And I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of it has to do with how strong you are

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Speaker 1: as an individual. And I think that based on your

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Speaker 1: upbringing and being told that it's not okay or that

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00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,040
Speaker 1: it's weird or that it's wrong. In the comments you

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Speaker 1: must have heard from people that you were close to.

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Speaker 1: Because let's go back to this the book that I'm

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Speaker 1: listening to, the author Justin Baldonni wrote he was talking

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Speaker 1: about a story of him trying to prove his masculinity

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Speaker 1: to his friends when he was younger, maybe middle school,

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Speaker 1: high school, and the names he was called when he

352
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,040
Speaker 1: didn't show up. I'm totally butchering this the actual story,

353
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Speaker 1: So go read the book, but this is the essence

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Speaker 1: of it. The names that he was called when he

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Speaker 1: wasn't showing up as your stereotypical strong, brave man doing

356
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Speaker 1: strong brave man things was stuff like female body parts

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Speaker 1: and and gay, which then he's talking about. So it's like,

358
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Speaker 1: you're either a man or you're gay. You can't be both.

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Speaker 1: Like I specifically remember too in high school, I I

360
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Speaker 1: tried to be on the football team that I regret

361
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Speaker 1: that I say, I regret not not one of my

362
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Speaker 1: best ideas. I just didn't understand any of it. And

363
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Speaker 1: there was a part of it too, like we had

364
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Speaker 1: what they called hell week where literally and I went

365
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Speaker 1: to like a boarding school. I mean it was a

366
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,400
Speaker 1: day school obviously, but then there were there was also

367
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Speaker 1: borders and so we would live on our campus for

368
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Speaker 1: a week and do like literally three days. This was

369
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Speaker 1: before hazing was not okay and there were policies put

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Speaker 1: into place to like not allow them. Like it was

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Speaker 1: like straight up full on hazing for a week and

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Speaker 1: I remember just counting the days the and it was

373
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Speaker 1: literally a week, but I was but I was, like

374
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Speaker 1: I hated it so much, and a lot of it

375
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,160
Speaker 1: was just it was toxic masculinity. It was all these

376
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Speaker 1: men and boys, I don't't even call them men but

377
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Speaker 1: boys on the on the football team that we're older,

378
00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,760
Speaker 1: and it was this concept of like, well we went

379
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Speaker 1: through it, so you have to and like just all

380
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,960
Speaker 1: of these things and just they're so proud of themselves

381
00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,959
Speaker 1: for being so aggressive and angry and mean, like and

382
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 1: that's what being a man exactly. And I think from

383
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Speaker 1: a very young age, I just I was always in

384
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Speaker 1: my head. I was always just questioning it. I was

385
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 1: always just like why this is so dumb, like why

386
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Speaker 1: are you so proud of this? Like why do you

387
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 1: feel this way? Why do you act this way? And

388
00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,879
Speaker 1: why is that good? And what I feel is bad? Exactly?

389
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,000
Speaker 1: But I but but it again, it's like majority rules,

390
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,560
Speaker 1: you know, And if you put yourself in an environment

391
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,640
Speaker 1: where the majority believe in act that way, and you're

392
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 1: the outsider and you're the like the minority there, then

393
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,959
Speaker 1: obviously you're not going to be listened to or cared for.

394
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,760
Speaker 1: That's another experience that I remember going through and throughout

395
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,679
Speaker 1: my life. I think I think being this way and

396
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,800
Speaker 1: feeling this way definitely aged me quicker than most too,

397
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 1: because I was constantly evaluating other people and questioning why

398
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,199
Speaker 1: I felt different or questioning why I didn't why I

399
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,199
Speaker 1: wasn't the way that other people were. You have to

400
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,440
Speaker 1: become super intelligent in one aspect, right because you are

401
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,640
Speaker 1: your resilient in the fact that I'm going to make

402
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 1: sure that I do fit in that I do find

403
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,520
Speaker 1: I want to call it belonging, but true belonging isn't

404
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 1: fitting in. But you had to find a way to

405
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 1: survive with the internal dialogue you're having. Yeah, I think

406
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 1: you just become a master of disguise in a way,

407
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 1: you know, And that's truly the best way I can

408
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,160
Speaker 1: explain it. I definitely don't look back on my entire

409
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 1: childhood or upbringing or anything prior to coming out, And

410
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 1: I don't look at it as if I was a

411
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,640
Speaker 1: victim in any way. I really don't. Granted, I wish

412
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,679
Speaker 1: I didn't have to go through some of those things,

413
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 1: but I definitely feel like in life, whether it's this

414
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,960
Speaker 1: experience or anything, going through hard things, doing hard things

415
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 1: makes you tougher and stronger and and gives you that

416
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,879
Speaker 1: life experience to then go and teach others things that

417
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:50,880
Speaker 1: you may have learned from it. I mean, we say

418
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 1: this all the time, Like you you don't the biggest

419
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,679
Speaker 1: lessons you learn are from usually failure or low points,

420
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 1: you know, when it's traumatic. I don't necessarily think that

421
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 1: that's something that I should be like. I'm not promoting that.

422
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,360
Speaker 1: I'm not saying like, oh, I wish like I think

423
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 1: everyone should go through this. I don't, but you grow

424
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,200
Speaker 1: through valley, But I do think that you grow through

425
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 1: low points, and so like that's how I've just chosen

426
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,120
Speaker 1: to look at everything. But the master of Disguise thing

427
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,439
Speaker 1: I think to your point, like when it's a method

428
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 1: of survival, yes, you put on this front and most

429
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,680
Speaker 1: people that have been through this experience or something similar

430
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 1: can relate to this that you just become something else

431
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 1: and so then you're kind of leading to different lives.

432
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 1: And that's why it's such a freeing feeling. That's why

433
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 1: coming out is kind of described as a freedom, free

434
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,560
Speaker 1: to be who I am. Like, I think it's that

435
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 1: freeing feeling because you're letting go of some of this

436
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 1: person that you've tried to be for so long, Like

437
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 1: that person kind of holds you captive, it holds the

438
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 1: other part of your captive. I have two questions. I

439
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,399
Speaker 1: want to start with this one. So you can't see

440
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,640
Speaker 1: Max at all, you can hear him, you can look

441
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,640
Speaker 1: me up. I want to make sure this question comes

442
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 1: out right because in my head it makes sense. And

443
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: you've mentioned when we've been out before, like hanging out,

444
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 1: that it's hard for you to date sometimes because people

445
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 1: can't look at you and know that you're gay. Right,

446
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 1: people look at you and assume you're straight. Is that

447
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 1: a fair sometimes? If I'm dancing, okay, so if we're

448
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 1: just standing straight up, well even I don't think people

449
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 1: could tell at like I didn't know when I met you.

450
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I'm not the most expressive person. Yeah,

451
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: I think this is This is where I'm getting to

452
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,719
Speaker 1: my question. If it's a question, maybe it's a whatever,

453
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,400
Speaker 1: going back to like you can't be masculine and gay.

454
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: That whole thing kind of pissed me off. And I

455
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 1: don't know if that's just my feelings because I look

456
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 1: at you and I would say that you are masculine

457
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 1: and you're gay. But because you're masculine and you can't

458
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 1: be gay, or if you're gay, you can't be masculine, right,

459
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: They're not mutually. It shouldn't be an either or thing,

460
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: I think, I think, and I think that we're moving

461
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,680
Speaker 1: in that direction. I think that the idea that someone

462
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 1: is surprised that the two can co exist is really

463
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: what needs to be unraveled in society, is that people

464
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 1: shouldn't be shocked by that, you know, And sometimes I

465
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 1: take a look at this and I really think that

466
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 1: it just comes down to a fact of like people

467
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: or people and who whatever they are and whoever they

468
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 1: are and however they are, is just is just that

469
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: there shouldn't be any added level of confusion or or

470
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: questioning around it. That's just I'm just saying that as

471
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 1: like an umbrella thought. But to dive into that a

472
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 1: little bit deeper, I think, yeah, they just they shouldn't

473
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: be two separate things. How's that shown up for you

474
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 1: or affected you? Or has that fact that people it's

475
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: like one or the other? Do you have feelings about it?

476
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 1: I have, Yeah, Well I think it's and I think

477
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 1: it goes back to what the preconceived notion of being

478
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 1: gay means, you know, like what you were talking about

479
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: about how how it is addressed as being feminine. So

480
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: when that story was being told, it was being a

481
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 1: woman and being and being gay is not masculine, and

482
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: being masculine is better than being those things, and so

483
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: those things are less than And that's the thing that's

484
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: really frustrating is why is one better than the First

485
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 1: of all, they're not being games is that different? But

486
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: the other thing is this idea of being this masculine

487
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: man isn't the greatest achievement in the world, But then

488
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: everybody else is below them, and that what is what

489
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: I think is messed up. Because women can have masculine traits.

490
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 1: Men can have feminine traits. It doesn't make them one

491
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: or the other. Goes to your point is people are

492
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 1: just people and that's what it is, absolutely well, I think,

493
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: And if you break this down, I mean, I'm I'm

494
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 1: no scientist or I'm not, you know, biologically not surprised,

495
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: like I don't understand that. But like even down to

496
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: that aspect of it, like men have estrogen, women have testosterone.

497
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: Like it's not it shouldn't be a one or the other.

498
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: There should be a combined balance of both. And I

499
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: think that that's just generally something that isn't really talked

500
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: about if you look back in history. I mean the

501
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 1: idea that a king is higher than a queen. And

502
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: in a sense, you know what I mean, it's like

503
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: it's like that concept that is that has prevailed through

504
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: history that the male figure is higher or more than

505
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: or better than the female. That's taught to us throughout history,

506
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: whether or not it's instilled in us when we're raised

507
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: by our parents or whoever were raised by, but it

508
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: is taught to us in history that that's a concept,

509
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 1: and so subconsciously it becomes a belief, which then you

510
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: have to either unbelieve or you you kind of attack

511
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: everything that you view in life with that filter. And

512
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 1: I think, what, yeah, yeah, that was great that it

513
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 1: has been taught to us. All this stuff has been

514
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: taught to us. We believe it because it's what's been

515
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,719
Speaker 1: taught to us. What you experienced, You were being shoved

516
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: in one direction, trying to be taught this one way

517
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: of living. Everything is being taught to us. The cool

518
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: thing is we can unlearn things that we have to

519
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: also want to. I grew up in the South, very sheltered,

520
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: one looking one way, and I've had to put effort

521
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 1: into like, Okay, how do I unlearned things that I

522
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: don't even know I learned? And when you were talking

523
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: about thinks when you're talking about the football team, of like,

524
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: if I show up as different, then everybody else is

525
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: still over here the same. So it's like, now I'm

526
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: the outcast. But I think, what what is so cool

527
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: that I've seen? And I don't know if you would agree.

528
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 1: I think that as a society and a culture, we're

529
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: doing more than ever to create that change because people

530
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 1: are now willing to be an outcast for the greater good. Yeah,

531
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 1: I think that yeah, step one. I think that is

532
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: Step one is normalizing the being different. And I think

533
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 1: a lot of improvement has been done in that in

534
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 1: that way. And I don't really care if this ages

535
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: me because I don't consider myself old at all. But

536
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 1: like I didn't have social media in my my grade

537
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: school upbringing, like throughout high school, like end of high schools,

538
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: like right when social media became popular. So now that

539
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: social media is just completely enveloped everything and is taken

540
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: over everything. Yeah, Like I take a look and I

541
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: see so many younger kids. And when I say kids,

542
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 1: I mean like you know, teenagers and above where they

543
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: are out maybe and and they have kind of you know,

544
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: come out or whatever the circumstance maybe, And granted it

545
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: might not be that normal yet, but it's it. We're

546
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: getting there, And I think that the visibility to being

547
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 1: different into being yourself is becoming more okay, But I

548
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: think it takes a lot more than that. It takes,

549
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: like you said, wanting to learn and accept that. But

550
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: I think it's just an open mindedness that too many

551
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: people are afraid of. Why do you think people are

552
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: afraid of? Why doing their acceptance of types of human beings?

553
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: I wish I knew the answer too, because then maybe

554
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: we could, like I think it kind of goes back

555
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: to that challenge thing that we talked about. It's like,

556
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: challenging people in the way of opening their mind and

557
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: expanding their thoughts is great. But when it's appointed challenge,

558
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,719
Speaker 1: as in, this is right, this is wrong, you need

559
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: to do this and keep going, then that can be

560
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 1: somewhat to struck dive a little bit. But I think

561
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: it's a combination of a lot of things. I won't

562
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 1: say that I have the answer to it, but I

563
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: will say that I think people that have not been

564
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: challenged to open their thoughts to something else are usually

565
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: the ones that end up, you know, not not doing.

566
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 1: So we're gonna go backwards. Yeah, let's go back. Let's go,

567
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: let's go back. I want to know when you came out,

568
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: what did that look like? And like, who did you

569
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: first come out to? Can you walk me through that?

570
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm gonna make up a story. I'm this

571
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: kid in college dating women doing the thing fairly, but

572
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: you were maybe okay. So I'm, you know, just hanging

573
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: out doing my thing, having these feelings in my head.

574
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: Then I meet this guy I have feelings for him,

575
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I have to I have to choose myself.

576
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: I finally have to choose myself. How did you do that?

577
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it was definitely difficult. I the way I

578
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,479
Speaker 1: went about it, or when I decided that that I

579
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: was going to tell people, I made a point to

580
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: myself to only tell the people that I truly loved

581
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: and that I felt needed to hear directly from me,

582
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: because I didn't want to make like a huge And again,

583
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: just to kind of like reiterate, I'm not a very

584
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: expressive person, Like I do share a good amount on

585
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: social media, but I really have a pretty tight circle

586
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: of people that I that I like, really that truly

587
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: know me, and that's just how I've chosen to live

588
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: my life. But the same goes back then, Like I

589
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: knew I wanted to tell the people that meant the

590
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: most to me to hear it directly from me. So

591
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: I told my mom, I told my sisters, and I

592
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: told When I told my dad, that's when he decided

593
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: that we were no longer speaking. Shut up. But yeah,

594
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: and then I told most of my really close friends.

595
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: What was the response of your mom and your sisters? Oh,

596
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: absolutely So my uncle, my mom's brother, is gay and

597
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: he lives in California, and I grew up in Florida

598
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: for context, so like he wasn't super prominent in my life.

599
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: I kind of wish he was a little bit like

600
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: when I look back on it, because I almost feel

601
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 1: like maybe I would have felt more comfortable if I

602
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: had had him as a a model. But regardless, I mean,

603
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: they were all very accepting, like they were like, we

604
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: love you, you know, thank you for sharing that exactly

605
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: like you. There were some people to where they were like, oh, well,

606
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: yeah I knew you know what I mean, And going

607
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: back to that whole like master of disguise thing part

608
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: of me, it was just like, no, you didn't like

609
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: I was. I was really good at like what do

610
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: you mean like kisses one girl all of high school?

611
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: Like what do you mean you didn't know I was straight? Girl?

612
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: Like I held her hand that one time. So so

613
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: it was Dad, like the last person he told. I

614
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: don't even know if it was the last person. I

615
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: just remember I like went out to lunch with him

616
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: one one day and he was like, so you're seeing

617
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: any girls or like seeing any women? I don't know

618
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: whatever he said, and I was like no, and I

619
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: was like, but I am talking to a guy, and

620
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: it was yeah, that's where it was. He was just

621
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: like not okay, and he was just like what and

622
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: he he was just really confused, and then like I

623
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: think he it was almost interesting because I'm trying to

624
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: like kind of put myself back there. He was like

625
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: physically to hurt by that, and he almost kind of

626
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: like laughed it off, and then basically it was just like, well,

627
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: we're not going to talk about that. That's what he said. Yeah,

628
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: Like we like did not discuss it from and then

629
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: we just like moved on like eating lunch. That was

630
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: it almost as if he like wiped it from his mind.

631
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: And then from that point he like when we were

632
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: saying goodbye to each other, I remember he was just

633
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,479
Speaker 1: like I think he said something around like well I

634
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: love you, but I don't support that, and then pretty

635
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: much we just like stopped communicating because and also for

636
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: context too, like he was not a great guy anyway.

637
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: Like That's why I say that it wasn't hard for

638
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: me to do to break that relationship because growing up

639
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: he used to again, like I didn't have to see

640
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: him on any sort of cadence, and so he like

641
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: I would call him pretty much like every day when

642
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: I would drive to school, I would call him and

643
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: that would be like our time for to catch up.

644
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: And then you know, we would spend time with each

645
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: other whenever we did, but like that was or time.

646
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: And then if I forgot one day or if I

647
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: was busy or something like that, he would guilt me,

648
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: saying like you're the only family I have um because

649
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: like his other family like excommunicated him. He's just not Yeah,

650
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: he was just not a great guy. And my mom

651
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,719
Speaker 1: didn't really interfere either because she again like we can

652
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: get into this too, but she was just the exact opposite,

653
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: like she wanted me to figure things out for myself

654
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: and wanted me to learn, like and she would tell

655
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: me her opinion, but then like still be like you know,

656
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: I'm like I'm not, I can't be one to tell

657
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: you this and that, like I want you to make

658
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: your own decision. But anyway, he would like guilt me

659
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: for not calling him one day and basically make me

660
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: feel like the worst person in the world. So when

661
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: I told him and when he decided that I wasn't

662
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: you know, good enough to be in his life or

663
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: whatever whatever the thought was. I was like, great, thank God,

664
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: Like that's what it felt like, that's what I felt.

665
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: I no longer have to pretend to be this person

666
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: I'm not, and I no longer have to force myself

667
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: to be in this relationship that's painful, exactly exactly which

668
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: I felt bad for him. But I have not spoken

669
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: to him. I I spoke to him once after that.

670
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: Has he tried to reach out to you once? Yeah, okay,

671
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: you feel bad for him. I feel sadness for you know.

672
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: I can't get pass that. Then again too, I mean

673
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: it's it's just a relationship at this point where I

674
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: just I don't need it or want it. Well, that's

675
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: one of those things where I think it's tough because

676
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: we're created to desire relationships with our our caregivers, our parents.

677
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: And also there's like the story, the fairytale story of

678
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: like what a dad is in what a mom is,

679
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: and what your parents are, the normative story. I think

680
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: by like, biologically we always can have this like desire that,

681
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,479
Speaker 1: oh it would have been nice to have X y Z.

682
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: But what I hear you saying is that's not what

683
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: I had, and what I had didn't feel very good.

684
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm not sad to not have something that

685
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: didn't feel good. Yeah, exactly. I mean I feel like

686
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: I especially after I moved to Nashville and I really

687
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: just started diving into who I am. I really started

688
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: to learn, Okay, how do you get rid of things

689
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: that don't serve you? How do you really just create

690
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: the life that you want to live and surround yourself

691
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: with the people that you want to be around. I mean,

692
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: I even remember when I first moved here, or even

693
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: sometimes in college when I left, like when I was

694
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: technically on my own. I guess you could say I

695
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 1: remember having like hesitations around choosing things for myself because

696
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, you know, it's only your choice.

697
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: No one's gonna tell you yes or no. Like you

698
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: get to do what you want this, I mean, and

699
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: that can go for anything. I really don't have like

700
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: an example. It's more so just a feeling that I remember,

701
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, it's I think it's just it

702
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: kind of just goes back to like when you know

703
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: what's good for you what you're talking about, which I

704
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: think is so cool, and just want to like validate

705
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: you a lot, for this is the deepest fears that

706
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: a lot of us struggle with, our fear of abandonment

707
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: and rejection. And we think about that from an outside perspective.

708
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: We don't want to be abandoned by them, we don't

709
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 1: want to be rejected by them. But what you're doing

710
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: is you're saying, well, I choose to abandoned myself. I

711
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: choose to not reject myself, and in that I believe

712
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: that by choosing myself, I will live a life where

713
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: I am surrounded by people who will also choose me,

714
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: which is so hard for some people to get to

715
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: because it's freaking scary. It's scary to choose our true

716
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: authentic selves because what I will say is, most of

717
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: the time, somebody's true authentic self does not fit into

718
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: the normative roles of anything that are out there. But

719
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: because we're all playing that game, we all think that

720
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: everybody is fitting into that and we're the only ones

721
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: that aren't. So it's like such a fucked up cycle.

722
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: I think that the definition of what's normal is constantly

723
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: changing too, with how in your face everyone's life is,

724
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, and also the over edited normality of everything

725
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: as well. So like, so you go on social media

726
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: and you see someone, whether their photo is photoshoped or not,

727
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 1: or whether they're circumstances different than yours or not, it's

728
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: just you label things in your head as well, why

729
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: don't I have that? They have this, Why don't I

730
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: have that? Why am I this way? There? All that way? Exactly?

731
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 1: There's just so many reasons to question why you're different.

732
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: We all want to be accepted, that's the root of it.

733
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: We all just want to be accepted. But do we

734
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: want to be accepted for this version that fits in

735
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: with the norm that's on Instagram or whatever, or that

736
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: we grew up with on TV shows, or do I

737
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 1: want to be accepted for this version that feels really good?

738
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: It probably feels so good to be able to show

739
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: up as yourself fully and people have been like, I

740
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: want to be around you, I want to know you more,

741
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: I want to be in a relationship with that person

742
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: versus I could be this other guy and my dad

743
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: could want to be BFF with me, But that doesn't

744
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: feel good because I'm rejecting myself every single day. Yeah,

745
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: agree with that, And I think going back to your

746
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: original point around the whole, like masculinity versus and well, no,

747
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I just I just want to tie it

748
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: back because I feel like it's it's it's just very

749
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: relevant and in the rejection piece of like why can't

750
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: I be gay and masculine because I really do enjoy

751
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 1: being masculine. That's what I find the most attractive and

752
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: other men as masculinity, you know, and that's typically why

753
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: I end up being attracted to straight men, which is horrible,

754
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 1: but that's a different story. Um. But anyway, So no,

755
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 1: I mean I think that that's that's just really where

756
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: it comes back to because like, Okay, so if I'm

757
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: rejecting parts of myself that I've been taught to feel

758
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: like our normal but exclusively you know, different, like I

759
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: can't be gay and be masculine. I have to choose,

760
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 1: and that would mean you would have to reject a

761
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: part of you exactly. And that's and that's where it

762
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: comes back to, because yeah, exactly, And so that's why

763
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, well I'm going to remove myself from

764
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: the environment that makes me choose and I'm just going

765
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: to be And I think that's really where people sometimes

766
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: can't get to because it's like how do you remove

767
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: yourself from a circumstance or surrounding or an environment that

768
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: only allows you to choose. Yeah, and depending on who

769
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: you are and your resources, that I mean, the fear

770
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: can be essentially paralyzing. And I think going back to

771
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,919
Speaker 1: what the book says about, like why is is being

772
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 1: masculine also perceived as being better than it's not better masculine? Yeah, exactly,

773
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: Like I think that it's just a matter of being

774
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: and anyone can be it. But I think it's the

775
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: it's the like the filters or the walls that are

776
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: put up around certain identities, as if there's some barrier

777
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: to entry. And I'm stuck on this idea too, though,

778
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: because if you just said that if masculine was better,

779
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: so everybody is going to be masculine, then our world

780
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: is going to be really fucked up because we need

781
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: the softness too. I think in anything, you need balance, right, yeah,

782
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 1: you know, but also like the openness for any level

783
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: of that balance, So like people should be open to

784
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 1: like a balance of both, but then also either extreme.

785
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think extreme any any full extreme

786
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: is is good in any way. I think of balance

787
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: masculin it is to be this big. You don't have

788
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 1: to be like the biggest guy with the biggest muscles,

789
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: and you don't have to be like the sweetest, dainty,

790
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: little feminine whatever you are. It can be a mixture.

791
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: It's a spectrum. Yeah, because, as we've seen time and

792
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: time again, lack of either usually shows up in some

793
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: way in the negative form. The most masculine man that

794
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 1: doesn't have a soft side will have issues. Yeah. Okay,

795
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: so here's the thing. We could talk for four or

796
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: five hours, so we'll just have you back. This was

797
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: a great This was a great starting conversation for your

798
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: continued guest appearance on the show. I'm ready, So thank

799
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: you for being here, thank you for letting me ask

800
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: all of those questions, thank you for having me, and

801
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: thank you for answering the questions. Do you want people

802
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: to follow you on Instagram? Okay, so what's your Instagram handle?

803
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: It's my first name Max M A X, middle initial T,

804
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: and last name Barry B A R R. Y. Okay,

805
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: go follow him and be his friend and take my

806
00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: class and then take his Yeah that I'm just kidding.

807
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: We need to do a team teach. You didn't start

808
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: with that, I know. We'll do it another one, okay,

809
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 1: all right, well, I will talk to you guys later.

810
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening and being here. If you have

811
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: questions for Max or me, send them to Catherinett you

812
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: need Therapy podcast dot com and maybe they'll show up

813
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: on a Couch Talks episode and have the day you

814
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: need to have. O. Goodbye,