1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Welcome 4 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: back to the show. My name is Matt. Our compatriot 5 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: Knoll is still with us in spirit and will be 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: returning shortly. Uh they call me Ben. You are you? 7 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: And that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Matt. 8 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: As we record this episode, it is two and a 9 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: half minutes to midnight. Um, I don't know, man, I 10 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: think it's something like three something like that, maybe Eastern 11 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: Standard time, Matt. But it's two and a half minutes 12 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: to midnight. If we're not talking about the time on 13 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: your coal wristwatch or your smartphone or Greenwich mean or 14 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: any of that. We're talking about the time kept by 15 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,839 Speaker 1: the infamous doomsday clock, and two and a half minutes 16 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: to midnight is a very bad time. Indeed. Oh yeah, 17 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: it may sound like some kind of diabolical comic book 18 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: Mad Scientists Invention the Doomsday Clock, but it's very much 19 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: a real thing, and it's Uh, it's designed to warn 20 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: the public about how close we are to destroying our planet, 21 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: either with technology, with weapons that we've created, or perhaps 22 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: you know, by some biological means, by some means that 23 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: the Earth designed. Yeah, this, uh, this metaphor is is 24 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: meticulously maintained, and it's meant to function as a reminder 25 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: of the perils we must address as a species if 26 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: we are to survive on this planet. Originally it started 27 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: in nineteen seven, which would make two thousand seventeen the 28 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: fiftieth anniverse street of the doomsday clock, and for the 29 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: last two years from twenty fifteen, the minute hand of 30 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: the doomsday clock State said at three minutes before the hour, 31 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: three minutes before midnight, the closest it had been to 32 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: midnight since the early nineteen eighties. This year it inch 33 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: just a bit closer to armageddon. And just some of 34 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: the warnings that the group gives that puts out this 35 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: doomsday clock, they said, the probability of global catastrophe is 36 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: very high, and the actions needed to reduce the risks 37 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: of disaster must be taken very soon. Wise public officials 38 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: should act immediately, guiding humanity away from the brink. If 39 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: they do not, wise citizens must step forward and lead 40 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: the way. Scary stuff, right, Yeah, but hold on, this 41 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: is not at the end of the episode. This is 42 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: just the beginning. Today's episode is not just about the 43 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: looming possibility of national or global catastrophe. It's more about 44 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 1: what happens afterwards. It happens if a biological, chemical, or 45 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: nuclear threat devastates your country. What happens if the capital 46 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: of your country is raised to the ground? Uh in 47 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: here in the US, If Washington, d c. Is attacked, 48 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: if it is reduced to ruins, where does the US 49 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: go next? And what does the United States become? So 50 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: that's where all of the important people are right And this, 51 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,399 Speaker 1: as it turns out, has been the subject of enormous 52 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: financial and strategic effort for decades. It's work conducted largely 53 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: in secret, and that secret is necessary to a degree 54 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: to ensure that the government continues despite human laws, as 55 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,119 Speaker 1: it might sustain. The specifics of this are are shrouded 56 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: in mystery, but one intrepid journalist too to call back 57 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: to the quotation used earlier one why Citizen UH has 58 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: stepped forward has pulled back, in part the curtain of 59 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: national security to reveal the elaborate, amazing, and at times 60 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: disturbing plans of the U. S Government post disaster and today. 61 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: We are very fortunate to have this journalist with us 62 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: on our show, So everyone please welcome Mr Garrett Graff, 63 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: the author of Raven Rock, The Story of the U. S. 64 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: Government's secret plan to save itself while the rest of 65 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: us die. I mean that is a title. Mr Graff, 66 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on the show with us. Oh, 67 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: it's my pleasure. I'm excited to be talking with you 68 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: guys today. Excellent, excellent. So first things first, I think 69 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: a lot of the audience members are asking, what what 70 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: is raven Rock and could you tell us a little 71 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: bit about how you discovered it. So this book traces 72 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: the history of what is known as the Continuity of 73 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: Government Plans the COG plans. These are the secret plans 74 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: that were developed UH in the wake of World War 75 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 1: Two and continue up to the present day that deal 76 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: with how the US government would survive a nuclear attack 77 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: and rebuild afterwards. Sort of everything from who would be 78 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: in charge in the minutes and hours after an attack, 79 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: how succession and military control would pass down through the 80 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: ranks of the government onto where US government officials would 81 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: be evacuated, and what the role of various government agencies 82 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: would be in rebuilding the country after a devastating attack, 83 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: whether it's nuclear, biological, chemical, terrorist, or even a large 84 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: scale natural disaster. Now, the title of the book comes 85 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: from Raven Rock, which is the Pentagon Bunker, the backup Pentagon. 86 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: This hollowed out mountain in Waynesboro, Pennsylvania, just over the 87 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: Maryland line from Camp David, the President's weekend get away, 88 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 1: and Raven Rock was built. One of more than a 89 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: hundred bunkers and location facilities around the capital during the 90 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: Cold War that would have housed the emergency wing of 91 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: the US government, and Raven Rock one of the three 92 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: biggest of these facilities, along with Mount Weather in Virginia, 93 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: which is the Presidential Bunker where the U. S Cabinet 94 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: would go and where congressional leaders and the Supreme Court 95 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: would go. And then No Rad the Cheyenne Mountain Bunker 96 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: in Colorado's Springs that's home to the North American Air 97 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: Defense System UH and probably best known to some of 98 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: the listeners here from the Matthew Broderick movie War Games. 99 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: So these three bunkers, the sort of crown jewels of 100 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: the US government's doomsday enterprise are are literally hollowed out 101 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: mountains I mean they have free standing buildings inside of 102 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: the massive reservoirs for drinking water. Um. You know, you 103 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: can row a boat on the on these reservoirs, and 104 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: the police departments, fire departments, medical facilities, you know, everything 105 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: that you would need in order to have uh. You know, 106 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: thousands of people live for weeks or even months at 107 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: a time underground. The No Rad Bunker even has a 108 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: subway fast food franchise inside, so even after Armageddon, you 109 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't be without your five dollar foot long Thank goodness, 110 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: we have our collective priorities in order here. Um. This 111 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: one thing that's really fascinating here is uh that you 112 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: mentioned that this this is an example of more than 113 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: a hundred bases. What what were what was the impetus 114 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: to create these bases? And and what were some of 115 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: these strategies for ensued ensuring c o G in the past. 116 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: So there were two things that really drove the invention 117 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: of this. I mean, what I like to write about, 118 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: what I've written about for much of my career, is 119 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: how technology transforms institutions and what this book really ends 120 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: up being. And I didn't understand this when I started 121 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: writing this book, was this is how nuclear weapons have 122 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: transformed the presidency how one specific technology has transformed one 123 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: specific institution. Because what you had was up until the 124 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,839 Speaker 1: nineteen forties, it didn't particularly matter minute to minute where 125 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: the President of the United States or the vice president 126 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: of the United States was. You know, as late as 127 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty five FDR. When he was driving back from 128 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: the dedication of the Hoover Dan his motor cab got 129 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: lost in the canyons outside Las Vegas, and the President 130 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: of the United States disappeared for the afternoon. No one 131 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: knew where he was, where he might pop up next, 132 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: or when he might return. And as late as January 133 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: when Harry Truman took office, the vice president had no 134 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: Secret Service protection. I mean, as long as you could 135 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: get in touch with a vice president in a couple 136 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: of hours or you know, by the next day, that 137 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: was all that really mattered. But the arrival of nuclear 138 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:31,359 Speaker 1: weapons began to compress government decision making time and required 139 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: the whereabouts of the president and the communications capability capability 140 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: around the president to be much more robust than it 141 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: ever had been before. Moreover, what you began to have 142 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: with nuclear weapons was the possibility that entire cities could 143 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: disappear in an instant, and so you began to have 144 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: to have contingency plans for what would happen if something 145 00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: happened to the Capitol. I mean, who would be in 146 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: charge if everyone in Washington was dead? Or if you 147 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: had the warning to evacuate people, where could they go? 148 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: I mean it wasn't enough that you could sort of 149 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: run out of the White House and run down the 150 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: street and you'd be safe. I mean you needed to 151 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: be miles away. You needed to be buried literally inside 152 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: of a mountain, or in later iterations of these plant plans, 153 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: it became too dangerous to be underground at all, and 154 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: we began to look at contingency plans that would put 155 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: the president or military decision makers up into airborne command posts. 156 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: I mean, this is the system that still largely exists today, 157 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: is this network of presidential doomsday planes, the E four 158 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: B night watch planes, these converted seven forty seven's that 159 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: stand alert and have stood alert for more than thirty years, 160 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: now ready to evacuate the president wherever he is and 161 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: and fly with him for three days above the United States, 162 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: where he could lead nuclear war from the sky. I 163 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: mean you were joking at the beginning of the show 164 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: that you know, we're sitting here two and a half 165 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: minutes to midnight. Well, we're also sitting here at this 166 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: exact minute as we're talking. One of these planes is 167 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: on the runway at off at Air Force Base in Omaha, Nebraska. 168 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: It's engines are turning and it's fully staffed, ready to 169 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: evacuate in the event of a threat on the president. Wow. 170 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: And they only need a very short runway to be 171 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: called out right like twenty minutes something like that. Yeah, 172 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: so that I mean that plane right now as we're 173 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: sitting here talking, it could be launched and in the 174 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: air in as little as twelve to fifteen minutes, ready 175 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: to rendezvous with the President wherever he may be. Have 176 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: have they ever been used for any reason since this 177 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: has been a program. Well, so it's an interesting question 178 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: because we have seen it come close to being activated 179 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: in a number of crises, like the Cuban missile crisis, 180 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: but it's really only been used on September eleventh. And 181 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: on September eleventh, you had these plans activated across the country, 182 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: and so you had evacuation helicopters clatter into the west 183 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: lawn of the Capital and evacuate congressional leaders to Mount Weather. 184 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: Helicopters evacuated government leaders from the Pentagon while it was 185 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,839 Speaker 1: still burning and took them up to Raven Rock. Um. 186 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,719 Speaker 1: These facilities had been sitting idle for much of the nineties, 187 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: and then it was sort of all restarted in a 188 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: hurry in the wake of eleven just quickly to stay 189 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: on the technology and how it's evolved. Uh. Do you 190 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: watch House of Cards at all? Yes? Yep, Okay, so 191 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: you've been watching this season. There's one scene. I don't 192 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: want to spoil too much, but let's say the the president, 193 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: whoever that might be, uh, in the middle of the night, 194 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 1: goes down and gets what appears to be a black 195 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: briefcase that you know has some power associated with it. Um, 196 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 1: can you talk about what an unassuming black briefcase and 197 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: a sealed index card has to do with the nuclear 198 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: war in the United States? Yeah? So this is the 199 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: nuclear football. I mean, these are this is the black 200 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: briefcase that has followed the President of the United States 201 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: around for more than fifty years now, carried by a 202 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: military aid and we and we forget about this often, 203 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: but all of these majestic toys that we think of 204 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: as the modern imperial presidency. Air Force one, Marine one, 205 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: the armored motorcaids are effectively just tools, fancy toys to 206 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: ensure that the President of the United States, wherever he is, 207 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: is able to launch nuclear weapons. And as much as 208 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: we have in our popular culture and uh, you know, 209 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: popular mythology, the idea that there's a big red button 210 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 1: or red telephone somewhere that the president would use to 211 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: launch nuclear war, the reality is much more pedestrian. This 212 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: military aid would walk up with this black briefcase. Uh. 213 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: It's filled not with some sort of super duper fancy computer. 214 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: It's filled with binders of papers as effectively a as 215 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: one military aid called it, a Denny's menu of nuclear war. 216 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: You could sort of point at different options for different 217 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: levels of strike, different targets, different countries. And that's the 218 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: type of nuclear war that you would order. And then 219 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: the President would get out his h what's known as 220 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: the biscuit, which is this sealed identification card that he 221 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: carries with him, this secret card with secret code words, uh, 222 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: filed by the n s A, and crack it open 223 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: and it would have a list of code words that 224 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: he would read to the military national command authorities, the 225 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: nuclear launch authority, and it would identify him as the 226 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: President of the United States. And if that disappeared, I mean, 227 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: if the if the president was dead or incapacitated, that 228 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: power would pass right on down through the national command 229 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: authorities and the presidential line of succession to the vice 230 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: president and on downward to ensure that there would always 231 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: be someone in charge of launching nuclear war. And in fact, 232 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: during the Cold War, we kept in place another airborne 233 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: command post. I've already mentioned the presidential airborne command post. 234 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: We've we kept in place another nuclear command post known 235 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: as looking Glass. These planes that flew also of Omaha, Nebraska, 236 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: three planes a day, twenty four hours a day from 237 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: the early nineteen sixties until the early nineteen nineties. One 238 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: of these planes was always up in the air, ready 239 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: to command our nuclear forces with a general or other 240 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: senior military commander on board. WHOA, and we know what. 241 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: I really appreciate that you said, Uh, we were You 242 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: cited the crucial and dynamic role and disruptive role the 243 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: technology plays with institutions because we do often see uh, 244 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: technological progress outpace legislative processing of that progress. Um, and 245 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: it leads us to one of the most disturbing pieces 246 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: of the puzzle here, not necessarily the the secrecy involved, 247 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: although that is disturbing, and while it is disappointing, it's 248 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: it's understandable not to have a antagonistic foreign power no 249 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: the game plan. But one of the more disturbing things 250 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: seems to be this, how do we know whether these 251 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: plans would actually work? And if we do, to what 252 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: degree do we have a degree of certitude here? So 253 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: it's a great question, and I think that the answer is, Uh, 254 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: these plans, as detailed as they were through the Cold 255 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: War probably would have never worked, or at least would 256 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,719 Speaker 1: have not worked in the way that they were intended. 257 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: And part of the reason for that is basic human psychology. 258 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you have in any emergency, you know, they 259 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: carefully well written plans interacting with the way that humans 260 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: react to unfolding events. And part of the challenge with 261 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: these plans throughout the Cold War were there were thousands 262 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: of U. S. Government personnel who would have been part 263 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: of these doomsday scenarios doomsday plans during the Cold War, 264 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: I mean from every department and government and the military. 265 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: You know, the Cabinet, Congress, and so on and so forth, 266 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: But there was no contingency for any of those staff 267 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: or personnel's families, their spouses, their children, their relatives, and 268 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: so at key moments of tension during the Cold War, 269 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: you often had people struggle with saying, you know, well, 270 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: I'm not going to evacuate if my family can't evacuate. 271 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,959 Speaker 1: Earl Warren when he was Chief Justice of the United 272 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: States of the Supreme Court, he he was handed one 273 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: of these special evacuation passes, the especial emergency passes when 274 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,239 Speaker 1: he took over the Supreme Court, and he looked at it, 275 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: and he looked at the guy from the Emergency Preparedness Office, 276 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: and he said, well, I don't see a pass here 277 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 1: for Mrs Warren. And the planner said, well, you know, sir, 278 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: you're one of the most important people in the US government. 279 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: And he said, well, you know, I guess you'll have 280 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: room in this case for yet another important person in government, 281 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: because I'm not going to do this. And he handed 282 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: back his path and never would have evacuated. And even 283 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: as late as the Obama administration, I mean even just 284 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: in the last couple of years. Um I talked to 285 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: an official who was part of these plans just within 286 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 1: the last couple of years, and he there was a 287 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: designated helicopter that would have dropped out of the Washington 288 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: sky and picked him up wherever he was and evacuated 289 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: him to one of these bunkers. And he said, you know, 290 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: I have two young daughters, and if they think that 291 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: if that helicopter lands on my daughter's soccer field on 292 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: a Saturday morning, that I'm just going to wave goodbye 293 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: to my family and get on it and disappear like 294 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: they're crazy. And that's that's a completely understandable and very 295 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: human impulse, you know that something that I think in 296 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: the in the in the modern mainstream public understanding, UH, 297 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: it seems to be responsible for a couple of conflicting emotions. 298 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: Of course, we can fully understand any uh let's say 299 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: a high level government official like a senator, right or 300 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: the Speaker of the House uh saying on a human level, 301 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: I will not go to a bunker to ensure my 302 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: life without also rescuing my children or my spouse. But 303 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: it also seems to lead to a slippery situation for 304 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: the public when they would say, well, why can these 305 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: officials take their families to a safe place while you know, 306 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: John Q Public and Jan Q Public and their two 307 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: point five kids are are stuck out in the cold 308 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: or out in the irradiated waste or whatever the alarm 309 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: is situation would be. How has the how has the 310 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: government or how have these strategic plans approached the idea 311 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: of including official family members? Are they are they including 312 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: those family members or is it still simply the utilitarian 313 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: function of a person on an individual basis? Yeah, And 314 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: and it's a great, I mean philosophical question. I mean, 315 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: it's a you know, it's a question about humanity. It's 316 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: a question about our you know, small d democratic process 317 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: in our government. Here. Um, you know that the goal 318 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: of these programs was never to create an elite body 319 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: who would get to survive nuclear war. It was to 320 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: ensure that the basic and most important functions of government 321 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: were preserved through the worst catastrophes imaginable and so what 322 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: this was an entirely foreseeable challenge that has dogged these 323 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: in work agency plans literally going back to the first 324 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: large scale government evacuation drill in nineteen fifty four, the 325 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: Operation Alert. In the summer of nineteen fifty four, Dwight 326 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: Eisenhower ran the first large scale evacuation drill of the 327 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 1: United States government, and all of his cabinet secretaries retreated 328 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: to Mount Weather that bunker that I'm previously mentioned in Berryville, Virginia, 329 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: and all of their secretaries evacuated as well. And I 330 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: found this news story about how the wives of the 331 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: cabinet sat at home and played cards through the afternoon 332 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: in what was described as a very chilly atmosphere as 333 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: they realized that their husbands would be evacuating without them 334 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 1: in the event of a nuclear war. But this challenge, 335 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: you know, for reasons that we just discussed, you know, 336 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: it wasn't part of these plans to in lewd families. 337 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: And so one of the only exceptions to that was 338 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: during the Congress built its own evacuation bunker at the 339 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: Green Dryer, this luxury West this luxury resort in West 340 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: Virginia that they buried a massive bunker underneath, and it 341 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: would have held the members of Congress and the staff 342 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: uh to keep Congress running. And then later when they 343 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: realized that members of Congress weren't going to evacuate without 344 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: their families, they did set up rooms adjacent to the 345 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: bunker that could be used to house families and relatives 346 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: if they were evacuated also, but you know the truth 347 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: of the matter was that there was no room inside 348 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: the bunker doors for the families. So you you could 349 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: evacuate with your uh husband or wife if he was 350 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 1: if he or she was a senator or representative, but 351 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: you would still be living outside of the bunker rather 352 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: than inside. And outside of a bunker unprotected but directly 353 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: adjacent to it is arguably, uh even more dangerous place 354 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: to be, especially if that location is disclosed. Yes, I 355 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: don't know whether you're better off being uh evacuated uh 356 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: and then being close to the bunker, or being evacuated 357 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 1: and or taking your own chances elsewhere away from a bunker. Yes, 358 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: this is an important question. And I am so glad 359 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: that you mentioned uh the Greenbrier Bunker, because there's a 360 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: tale involved in in the public discovery of this bunker, 361 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: which we will explore after a word from our sponsor 362 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: and we have returned. There was a a little bit 363 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: of a teaser here for the the famous bunker at 364 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: the Greenbrier, Virginia Resort, and a few years ago, relatively recently. Actually, 365 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: most of the American public and probably most of the 366 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: international public, learned of this through an article in the 367 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: Washington Post. This and you know, our show was still 368 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: extant at this time, and this this blew our minds 369 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: because you know, a lot of people may be tangentially 370 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: aware or maybe aware on some level that there must 371 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: be some kind of c O G plan, right, but 372 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: very few people ever knew a nuts and Olds example 373 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: or a real world example. And what we're leading up 374 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: to with this question is when when it was discovered? 375 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: Right when when Greenbrier was discovered, it instantly lost an 376 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: enormous amount of strategic value and it ties into some 377 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: of the I would argue necessary secrecy here and now 378 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: in the present day, we know most governments obsessively prepare 379 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: for the possibility of a national catastrophe, as as you said, 380 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: Mr Graphic, it could even be just a large scale 381 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: natural disaster. But now the public is asking how much 382 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: do we know or not know about these specifics of 383 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 1: these plans, and how much should we know? I mean, 384 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: let's go out on a limb and admit that this 385 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: is by a large finance by taxpayer dollars. Good point, Yeah, 386 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 1: it's it's a tough question because there are sort of 387 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: several different layers to it. The first is I, even 388 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: as someone writing about this, agree that there is a 389 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: level of secrecy that you necessarily need to provide for 390 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: a set of these plans to to work. I mean 391 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: that what I would refer to as the tactical secrecy 392 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: as necessary. You know, what the exact communications and defensive 393 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: capabilities of specific vehicles or facilities are, exactly where someone 394 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: would be evacuated to which facility. The secondary questions, though, uh, 395 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: this is the larger, more strategic ones, Uh, you know, 396 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: how these policies would work, how these programs would work, 397 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: how they're funded. I think that there's much less of 398 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: a need for secrecy around there. But some of this 399 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 1: is also you know, I don't think that the government 400 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: really does know how much it's spent on these programs 401 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: because they are spread across so many different, uh, different programs, 402 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: different classified budgets, different agencies. Uh. You know, the best 403 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: I could generally come up with is that we're spending 404 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: about two billion dollars a year on the operation of 405 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: these plans. I'm not talking about the the construction of 406 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: the facilities or the construction of the planes or anything 407 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: like that, just really the maintenance and operation of these facilities. 408 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: I mean, they're they're almost all still in existence today. Um, 409 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,239 Speaker 1: you know, actually right now or even rock that the 410 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: title of the book, The Bunker in Pennsylvania is getting 411 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: a big communications upgrade done by Century Link, uh sort 412 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: of right now in the summer of Similarly, though, there's 413 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: this larger question that we just don't really know how 414 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: these plans would work it in in actuality on a 415 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: day to day basis and an hour by hour basis. 416 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: I mean, we don't really know who would be in 417 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: charge uh in certain instances and entirely foreseeable instances. Also, 418 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: which I think is the troubling part is they're there 419 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: are problems that we won't know until these plans are 420 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: activated for the first time. Uh you know, who actually 421 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: shows up, who actually will be evacuated, um without their families. 422 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: But there's also another set of problems with these plans 423 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: that we do know could exist, and we haven't debated those, 424 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: we haven't discussed those, and I don't think that there's 425 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: any real need for secrecy. Let me give you a 426 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: couple of examples here. Uh, you know, just a couple 427 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: of weeks ago, we had the tragic shooting at the 428 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: congressional softball game. Well, that raised again this issue of 429 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: congresses continuity in Congress his own succession planning, which it 430 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: has largely ignored ever since nine eleven, that their Congress 431 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: still has no good mechanism to quickly replace its membership 432 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: if large, large numbers of members of the House of Representatives, 433 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: for instance, are killed or incapacitated, which means that Congress 434 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: would be left on the sidelines for months. On the 435 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: low end, I mean potentially you know, six, nine, twelve 436 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: months without an operating Congress in the event of an emergency. 437 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: We also don't know, UH. Some big questions and some 438 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: big answers about the presidential succession um. There are problems 439 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: that we are well aware of with the twenty five 440 00:30:54,320 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: Amendment which guides presidential succession um, including the very active 441 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: constitutional debate about whether the Speaker of the House or 442 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: the President pro tem of the Senate can legally become 443 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: president of the United States. There's, in fact, a very 444 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: good argument put forth by James Madison, the man who 445 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: actually wrote the Constitution, UH, that says that members of 446 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: the legislative branch can't participate in the executive branch. And 447 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: so there is an entirely foreseeable scenario where in some 448 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: sort of emergency, both Paul Ryan and Rex Tillerson argue 449 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: over who gets to be president of the United States. Moreover, 450 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,479 Speaker 1: we don't really know, uh what what are the secret 451 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: plans that we don't know about? Uh And and that's 452 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: where I think some of the biggest problems are um 453 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: throughout the Cold War, and I explained some of these 454 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: at great length in the book. There are examples of 455 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: secret plans that one administration or another has created that 456 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: would have deputized business leaders as sort of dictatorial czars 457 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: in the event of an emergency, I mean, seizing all 458 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: of the housing in the country, all of the all 459 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: of the manufacturing in the country, and administering it and 460 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: setting wages and setting prices. Um. We don't know whether 461 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: those similar plans exist today. I mean, does Mark Zuckerberg 462 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: have a piece of paper or Jeff emelt At ge 463 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: that from the President saying you know, I'm I'm going 464 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: to be the czar of manufacturing in the event of 465 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: a major national emergency. We don't know whether there are 466 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: plans for private citizens to sweep into government roles as 467 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: there were during the during the Cold War. UM people 468 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: like Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld actually participated in these 469 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: plans in the nineteen eighties under a program that was 470 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: then known as the Presidential Successor Support System the PS three, 471 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: And even though they were private citizens, they would have 472 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: been designated in advance as effectively white House chiefs of staff, 473 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: so that if a president was killed and evacuated and 474 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: the successors were evacuated to one of these bunkers, you 475 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: would find Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld or another former 476 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: high ranking government official like that waiting in the bunker 477 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: to tell you how to run the U. S. Military 478 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: UM And we don't know again Leather sort of similar 479 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:50,479 Speaker 1: plans exist today, and I think those are areas where 480 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: we should be able to have a robust public debate 481 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: in peacetime about what those plans could actually entail, so 482 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: when we're getting into the private sector here and how 483 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: they function alongside governmental plans. One of the really fascinating 484 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: things that I found in the book was this thing 485 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: called Project nine eight. Could you could you tell us 486 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: about what that is and what that could have been? 487 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: So nine not eight was part of a you know, 488 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: decades long effort to try to figure out a way 489 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: to protect the civilian population of the United States. It 490 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: got harder and harder as missiles multiplied and bombs got 491 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: stronger and faster, but the goal was it was really 492 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: to evacuate the urban cities and to figure out how 493 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: the US civilian population could survive. And so through the 494 00:34:54,719 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, this uh secret nine not eight project saw 495 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: FBI agents traverse you know, most of the country and 496 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: figure out where civilian populations could be evacuated into rural regions, 497 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: and to map things like hotels and elementary schools and 498 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 1: bowling alleys and food warehouses even in suburban and rural 499 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: parts of America, to figure out where urban residents could 500 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: be successfully evacuated and housed. I live in Vermont, and 501 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: these plans include sort of these wacky ideas to evacuate 502 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,919 Speaker 1: most of the population of Connecticut up into Vermont and 503 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,839 Speaker 1: you know, house them in places like the chapel at 504 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: Middlebury College or the field House at Middlebury College. And 505 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: you know, they knew precisely how many people would be 506 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 1: housed in each of these facilities, and that we spent 507 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: millions of dollars mapping these and figuring out how to 508 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: pull pull together the rees sources for fallout shelters. Um 509 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: Nibisco at one point manufactured something like a hundred and 510 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: sixty million tons of something that was known as the 511 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: survival biscuit, this cracker that you would have been fed 512 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: in fallout shelters during the Cold War. You would have 513 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: gotten six crackers a day, a hundred and twenty five 514 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: calories apiece, and that would have been your diet inside 515 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: a fallout shelter for the two weeks that everyone was 516 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: expected to live inside. And if anyone is interested, you 517 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: can find people opening and eating those. In the contemporary time. 518 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: It's really funny. There are all these YouTube videos of people. 519 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 1: You can buy these tins of crackers, uh still on 520 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: eBay and you know, military surplus stores and things like that, 521 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: Army Navy stores and you can buy them, and there 522 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: are these videos of people opening them and uh and 523 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 1: they they don't appear or to taste that good. Now, 524 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: truth be told, I don't think they ever were supposed 525 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: to taste that good, But certainly fifty years of aging 526 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,719 Speaker 1: has not helped them very much. Oh, not like a 527 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,240 Speaker 1: fine wine. Uh. You know, I appreciate hearing that because 528 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: that is one of the questions one of our listeners had. 529 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: They said to ask Garrett Graff where we can get 530 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: those nibiscos survival biscuits. So you heard it here, folks. Uh, 531 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,720 Speaker 1: the author himself says, the confirms that you can find 532 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 1: it military surplus stores and at eBay. Uh. This this 533 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: question about, you know, the evacuation for civilians, for non 534 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: governmental officials, non high ranking military members. UM, this is 535 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: something that really hits on a UM. I guess it 536 00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: hits on a pivotal point in the conversation, which is 537 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 1: that currently, uh, the U s population has an estimated 538 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: one point four million people, right and Uh, one of 539 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 1: the one of the I guess thematically. One of the 540 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: threads I'm noticing in a lot of questions our audience 541 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: members have sent us is they're asking what happens to 542 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: the common person? You know, to UM, to Jane and 543 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 1: John Doe, do they and Matt and Ben and Garrett. Uh, 544 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: you know that it is a pertinent question. And earlier 545 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 1: you had said, you know that these these plans became 546 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: increasingly difficult as technology evolved and as the population increased. 547 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: Do we know if there are large scale contingency plans? 548 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: And if so, do we know which agencies would oversee those? 549 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: Like FEMA for instance. Yeah, So FEMA is the agency 550 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: that runs all of these plans, and it has existed 551 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: in many different forms since the nineteen fifties. Uh, but 552 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 1: the modern evolution of it is FEMA, and and in 553 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: in a weird way that most people don't understand the 554 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 1: fact that FEMA, it is the agency that oversees these plans, 555 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,919 Speaker 1: is actually uh, what it is supposed to do. Um. 556 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:32,720 Speaker 1: The fact that it also responds to natural disasters hurricanes, tornadoes, 557 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: floods is really an ancillary benefit of the fact that 558 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 1: it had developed all of this response capability to nuclear 559 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 1: war and that you know, nuclear war thankfully doesn't come 560 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: along all that frequently. So they started to deploy these 561 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: resources and these tools and these stockpiles to help alleviate 562 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,839 Speaker 1: the suffering in natural disasters. But FEMA still runs these 563 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: and today a large percentage of FEMA's budget is known 564 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: as the as what the black budget, classified budget. You know, 565 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:14,720 Speaker 1: whole floors of FEMA's headquarters in Washington are sealed off 566 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:19,280 Speaker 1: from other employees because they run these continuity of government programs, 567 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: and in many ways the plans today are a little 568 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 1: bit different than they were during the Cold War, because 569 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: while the Cold War plans, the expectation in many ways 570 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 1: was some sort of large scale attack on Washington and 571 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: the entire rest of the country, today the plans are 572 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: much more focused around a devolution of power outside of Washington. 573 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: I mean, the modern threats uh, you know, North Korea, Iran, 574 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,320 Speaker 1: rogue states, terrorist groups make it much more likely that 575 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: actually something would happen to Washington in but then leave 576 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: most of the rest of those three d and twenty 577 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: four million people alive and untouched, but leaderless. And so 578 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: that's why today all of these facilities are fully staffed 579 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:20,240 Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day. They don't rely on evacuation 580 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,839 Speaker 1: and warning in the same way that they did. Uh. 581 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: And it was really the combination of both nine eleven 582 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: and then in a slightly earlier attack in the by 583 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: a doomsday cult in Tokyo that released sarin gas in 584 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: the subways there that led the government to realize, wow, 585 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,279 Speaker 1: you know, something could happen just to the capital, just 586 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: to our leadership, and the whole rest of the country 587 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: would still be still be around, untouched and needing leaders. 588 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: And so that part of what many people don't understand 589 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: about the presidency today also is that the president isn't 590 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,360 Speaker 1: just the person that we elect on the first Tuesday 591 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 1: after the first Monday in November. The president c actually 592 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: encompasses several hundred people, and so you have, you know, 593 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: the people in that that direct line of succession, the 594 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,720 Speaker 1: Vice President, the Speaker of the House, the President pro tempo, 595 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 1: the Senate, and then all down through the cabinet. But 596 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,840 Speaker 1: then also each of those cabinet secretaries has their own 597 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 1: line of succession, uh, you know, people long and some 598 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: of those people are by design outside of Washington, d C. 599 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,360 Speaker 1: So that in the event that something did happen to 600 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: the capital, you would still be able to have people 601 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: step into those cabinet roles, but it would be sort 602 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 1: of an odd assortment of people like the U N Ambassador, 603 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,280 Speaker 1: the U S Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois, 604 00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 1: the top federal prosecutor in Chicago, and people like the 605 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: the manager of the Department of Energy Savannah River Operations 606 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: Center outside of Savannah, who would suddenly announce themselves as 607 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 1: the leaders of the United States. Oh man, this is 608 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: heavy stuff, you guys, and uh, I feel like we're 609 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,400 Speaker 1: gonna we need to take another quick break and hear 610 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor and they get right back 611 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: into it, and we have returned, assuming that civilization has 612 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:42,439 Speaker 1: not fallen while we're on an add break. One thing 613 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 1: that's one thing that's fascinating here about this discussion is 614 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,839 Speaker 1: if we if we do a little bit of a 615 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: thought exercise and we imagine a nation um devolving as 616 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:01,920 Speaker 1: you said, Mr Graff, in this devolution to um align 617 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,320 Speaker 1: as secession for leadership right a line of succession for leadership. 618 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:13,919 Speaker 1: Then there's there's this amazing question, would someone who, let's say, 619 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,479 Speaker 1: lives on the other side of the country or lives 620 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:24,440 Speaker 1: in the Midwest, would they acknowledge the rise of a 621 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 1: Savannah based organization of people who survived or officials or 622 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 1: government that survived the catastrophe saying this is now the 623 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: leadership of the US, because it seems like one of 624 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,320 Speaker 1: the big things people would have to worry about organizationally 625 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 1: would be the acceptance of authority. And I'm wondering if 626 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 1: there are, if there are any plans to do that, 627 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 1: because if it's already I mean this is a country 628 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,919 Speaker 1: that does have a large amount of um I guess 629 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 1: self governments or autonomy, and it's in its DNA. And 630 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,880 Speaker 1: this is a country you that has a large amount 631 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: of gun ownership and tension already before bomb drops. What 632 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: what if any plans do we know of involving Are 633 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: there any plans that we know of that involve making 634 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:23,239 Speaker 1: the population a cohesive whole? So you've caught right to 635 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 1: the heart of one of the conundrums that the government 636 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 1: really did struggle with, and the idea actually they came 637 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,399 Speaker 1: up with a couple of different phases of this as 638 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: a response. The first was, in addition to all of 639 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 1: these bunkers around the capitol itself, FEMA built a series 640 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,320 Speaker 1: of regional bunkers around the country, eight of them uh 641 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:55,920 Speaker 1: in places like Maynard, Massachusetts and Denton, Texas in UH 642 00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:02,320 Speaker 1: and these bunkers would have really oversee a regional government, uh, 643 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,919 Speaker 1: you know, a half dozen states perhaps at a time. 644 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: In The idea was that that the federal government would 645 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:17,800 Speaker 1: devolve to these regional bunkers for and regional governments for 646 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:23,440 Speaker 1: some period of time while the national government, the federal 647 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,480 Speaker 1: government itself was reconstituted and rebuilt, but that for all 648 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,760 Speaker 1: intents and purposes, the major decisions would be being made 649 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,680 Speaker 1: out of these regional bunkers with these regional governments. The 650 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:40,920 Speaker 1: UK actually came up with a relatively similar system where 651 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: they built regional command regional government bunkers all over the country. 652 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 1: And the thinking again being that it would take a 653 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 1: little bit of time to restore the total power of 654 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 1: the federal government, and so they wanted to you know, 655 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,279 Speaker 1: have in place, you know, effectively a temporary government that 656 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: could carry over until the national government was ready to 657 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,920 Speaker 1: reassert control over the whole country. So when a lot 658 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,800 Speaker 1: of these plans were originating post World War Two, and 659 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,360 Speaker 1: then as we get into the Cold War and it 660 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:23,040 Speaker 1: reaches its heights, the the known enemy, the known known 661 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:27,400 Speaker 1: enemy I guess of the United States were the Communists 662 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: in all of the different ways uh that they existed. 663 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: And there were some plans that were put in place 664 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,960 Speaker 1: even before like let's say, a new attack was confirmed. 665 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,400 Speaker 1: There were plans in place to round up subversives on 666 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,200 Speaker 1: US soil, and it was called Plans C. And I 667 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,360 Speaker 1: was I was wondering if you could go over what 668 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 1: that is and then perhaps what a contemporary version of 669 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,160 Speaker 1: that looks like yeah. So we talked a little bit 670 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 1: about the president's nuclear football, the Black eastcase that follows 671 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,160 Speaker 1: him around. A lot of people don't know that through 672 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,000 Speaker 1: much of the Cold War, the Attorney General was also 673 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:14,239 Speaker 1: followed around by basically the Attorney General's football, the emergency 674 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,480 Speaker 1: briefcase that followed him wherever he went. That would have 675 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:26,320 Speaker 1: contained plans to suspend habeas corpus, to the suspensivil liberties, 676 00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:31,280 Speaker 1: to declare martial law across the country, and to round 677 00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: up more than ten thousands suspected subversives and foreign agents 678 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,840 Speaker 1: who lived across the United States that FBI Director Jager 679 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 1: Hoover kept tabs on, and he wanted them swept up 680 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,080 Speaker 1: in the opening minutes, opening hours of an attack on 681 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:54,080 Speaker 1: the country. So these plans existed through most of the 682 00:48:54,120 --> 00:49:00,440 Speaker 1: Cold War. The subversive list in its sort of existing 683 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,840 Speaker 1: current form was sort of wound down, uh in the 684 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:09,120 Speaker 1: post Watergate era. But we have every reason to believe 685 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:13,720 Speaker 1: that some version of these draft plans, this, these draft 686 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:19,240 Speaker 1: executive orders, these this draft legislation, even this draft subversives 687 00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:27,920 Speaker 1: list probably still exists today. And that in the in 688 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,440 Speaker 1: the remarks of in the event in the wake of 689 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:36,600 Speaker 1: events like nine eleven, you saw officials admit that effectively, 690 00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:40,160 Speaker 1: if things had gotten worse, they would have just declared 691 00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:45,400 Speaker 1: martial law, that any sort of large scale catastrophe would 692 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,960 Speaker 1: come with this suspension of civil liberties, the declaration of 693 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:55,880 Speaker 1: martial law, and you know, things like habeas corpus withdrawn 694 00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:00,400 Speaker 1: until something more like peacetime was able to be re establed. Washed. 695 00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,919 Speaker 1: It's fascinating, and it's also there's a one question that 696 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,680 Speaker 1: we keep seeing come up which concerns private industry. We 697 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,560 Speaker 1: touched a little bit on the the ideas of czars 698 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:23,560 Speaker 1: right and the devolution of normally state powers to private entities. 699 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:26,359 Speaker 1: But one thing that a lot of people have been 700 00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:31,960 Speaker 1: asking us about are the rise of privately owned bunkers. 701 00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:36,040 Speaker 1: You know, everything from everything, Yeah, everything from the small um, 702 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:41,239 Speaker 1: the small family bunker to the larger I think there 703 00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:45,120 Speaker 1: are even some renovated former missile silos that people have 704 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,120 Speaker 1: sold on real estate here. And I guess one of 705 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,680 Speaker 1: the questions that we have is are those on are 706 00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,520 Speaker 1: those a fat or are they legitimately on par with 707 00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: some of the professional the States sponsored bunkers. M hm, 708 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:07,480 Speaker 1: So they're they're definitely at some level of modern fat 709 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:12,799 Speaker 1: I mean, part of this challenge of worrying about doomsday 710 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:17,760 Speaker 1: prepping and things like the modern versions of these threats, 711 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:23,320 Speaker 1: like the electromagnetic pulse that could wipe out electrical grids 712 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:28,239 Speaker 1: in the event of a high altitude nuclear explosion. But 713 00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,720 Speaker 1: at the same time, we've seen this straight through all 714 00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:36,799 Speaker 1: of the Cold War and the history of continuity of 715 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,520 Speaker 1: government planning, where private citizens, you know, have built and 716 00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:45,120 Speaker 1: maintained their own fallout shelters, built and maintained their own bunkers, 717 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,799 Speaker 1: and a lot through the Cold War, a lot of 718 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:53,080 Speaker 1: private companies actually had their own bunkers. Companies like IBM 719 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,640 Speaker 1: or or A T and T were very tightly integrated 720 00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,120 Speaker 1: into these government plans and so kept their own bunkers 721 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:04,600 Speaker 1: for their own executives. Um, you know Iron Mountain. Uh. 722 00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,319 Speaker 1: The what we think of now is sort of a 723 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:12,360 Speaker 1: record's retention business really grew out of people in private 724 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:18,759 Speaker 1: companies beginning to want to have their own nuclear bunkers underground. 725 00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,759 Speaker 1: M M. All right, So you must have gotten some 726 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,120 Speaker 1: kind of special clearance to learn about a lot of 727 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,560 Speaker 1: this stuff, I'm assuming, And hey, you don't have to 728 00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,000 Speaker 1: tell us about a Garrett. It's cool, But you're wondering 729 00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:35,000 Speaker 1: if if you learned anything that you couldn't include in 730 00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:40,360 Speaker 1: the book for national security reasons. So I I didn't 731 00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,040 Speaker 1: have any special clearance for this. You know, this was 732 00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:50,920 Speaker 1: all good old fashioned journalistic and uh archival digging um, 733 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,520 Speaker 1: interviewing people who have been parts of these plans over 734 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 1: the years, that you know, cross referencing old documents, be 735 00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:02,440 Speaker 1: classified documents. UH. But there were certainly some details that 736 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,239 Speaker 1: I kept out of the book that I did learn 737 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,759 Speaker 1: that fell into the category that I discussed of what 738 00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,760 Speaker 1: I described as tactical secrecy. I mean the exact capabilities 739 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:19,040 Speaker 1: of specific facilities or specific vehicles that might be used 740 00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:23,640 Speaker 1: during these evacuations. But I think the bigger problem is 741 00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:27,640 Speaker 1: not the secrecy of these plans. It's the lack of 742 00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:32,000 Speaker 1: transparency of these plans. And so you know, I certainly 743 00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,600 Speaker 1: dug as much as I could, but I think there's 744 00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:36,920 Speaker 1: a lot more digging to do, and I hope we'll 745 00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,439 Speaker 1: learn a lot more about these plans over the months 746 00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:44,600 Speaker 1: and years ahead. Fantastic, Mr graph. We want to again 747 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,480 Speaker 1: thank you on behalf of our listeners so much for 748 00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:51,600 Speaker 1: your time and even more so for all of the 749 00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:56,600 Speaker 1: extensive journalistic effort. We we know that this took I mean, 750 00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:01,680 Speaker 1: I'm just imagining leafing through the f A. I uh, 751 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:06,040 Speaker 1: the Freedom of Information Act request alone has to be 752 00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:10,560 Speaker 1: very time consuming. And as we end the episode today, 753 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,080 Speaker 1: we would like to close on a final question, Matt. 754 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:18,120 Speaker 1: I'll let you do the honors, all right, Garrett. I'm 755 00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,879 Speaker 1: just extrapolating here, but it feels like the ultimate continuity 756 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:25,680 Speaker 1: of government in in what forty fifty maybe a hundred years, 757 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,520 Speaker 1: is going to be Mars. What say you? I think 758 00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,640 Speaker 1: you know? That's certainly what Elon musk Is is arguing, 759 00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,319 Speaker 1: and he pushes us more into the space world. So 760 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:42,200 Speaker 1: I think that there is no shortage of opportunities outside 761 00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,080 Speaker 1: of this planet to help preserve the life on this planet. 762 00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,960 Speaker 1: That is a fantastic There is a poetic answer, Mr Graph. 763 00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,680 Speaker 1: We are concluding our interview with Mr Garrett M. Graff, 764 00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:55,960 Speaker 1: the author of Raven Rock, the story of the U. S. 765 00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,920 Speaker 1: Government secret plan to save itself while the rest of 766 00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:03,120 Speaker 1: us die. He has written other books including The Threat Matrix, 767 00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:07,400 Speaker 1: The FBI at War, angel Is Airborne, and The First Campaign, 768 00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:10,400 Speaker 1: Mr Graph, if people would like to learn more about 769 00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:14,319 Speaker 1: not just Raven Rock, but your work overall, where can 770 00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,520 Speaker 1: they go to find more information? Well, the books are 771 00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:21,839 Speaker 1: all available from Amazon or any of your great independent 772 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,000 Speaker 1: local bookstores. Uh. And then you can always check out 773 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,960 Speaker 1: my website at Garrett Graph dot com or my Twitter 774 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,520 Speaker 1: Vermont g MG. Great. And if you want to write 775 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,440 Speaker 1: to Mr Graph, send him those tweets. And if you 776 00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:39,600 Speaker 1: want to write to both of us, hey, you can 777 00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,560 Speaker 1: find us. We are a conspiracy stuff on Twitter and 778 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,400 Speaker 1: on Facebook, and you can find us on Instagram Conspiracy 779 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:47,760 Speaker 1: Stuff Show. And if you don't want to do any 780 00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:51,400 Speaker 1: of that stuff, our best ideas always come from you. 781 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,080 Speaker 1: You can send us a good old fashioned email. We 782 00:55:54,160 --> 00:56:17,600 Speaker 1: are conspiracy at how stuff where It's dot com