Speaker 1: Diversion podcasts. People give you closer for you now. You know,
Speaker 1: that's kind of funny too. What people who are rich
Speaker 1: don't have to buy things because everybody wants them to
Speaker 1: endorse their clothes. They'll give it to one for free.
Speaker 1: The people w are poor, they try to raise the price.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying as that's weird. That kind
Speaker 1: of tripped me out because I think, you know, I
Speaker 1: have money, I'm going to be buying all these sneakers
Speaker 1: and shorts and tank tops and he'll figure and Polo
Speaker 1: and guests and now they're like, oh please wait this
Speaker 1: where this? What kind of what do you want? Okay,
Speaker 1: what kind of sneaking you want? Yeah? No, give them
Speaker 1: to you for free? Yah? Then what you do endorse
Speaker 1: their products? Like could you wear this? If you want,
Speaker 1: we can give you this or just ask for something.
Speaker 1: Since the start of the pandemic, I've spent more time
Speaker 1: in my home office than I have anywhere else. In
Speaker 1: one corner is a big bookcase. In another corner is
Speaker 1: my desk. That's where I did much of the research
Speaker 1: and reporting and just about all of the writing for
Speaker 1: my book about Kobe Bryant. I could make phone calls,
Speaker 1: I could search online databases, and as much as I
Speaker 1: love my wife and two sons, I could close the
Speaker 1: door on them so I could get some work done
Speaker 1: in peace and quiet. Early on in my writing process,
Speaker 1: I reached out to someone who twenty five years earlier
Speaker 1: had also tried to write a book about Kobe. It
Speaker 1: was Jeremy Treatment. You've heard a lot about him in
Speaker 1: this series. I called Jeremy, knowing his own Kobe book
Speaker 1: project had been scuttled at some point, but also knowing
Speaker 1: he was still in touch with several of Kobe's coaches
Speaker 1: and teammates from Lower Merion High School. Jeremy kept transcripts
Speaker 1: from his interviews with Kobe from and he handed over
Speaker 1: a cardboard box full of those transcripts and other material. Later,
Speaker 1: when he found the tapes of those interviews, he gave
Speaker 1: those to me too. I kept the tapes in that box,
Speaker 1: and I kept that box right next to my desk.
Speaker 1: I had easy access to the tapes there in case
Speaker 1: I needed to listen to them or read over the
Speaker 1: transcripts as I was writing the book. And I have
Speaker 1: to admit that sometimes I just pick up the transcripts
Speaker 1: and page through them, reading Kobe's words, trying to put
Speaker 1: myself there, listening to him speak, imagining what it must
Speaker 1: have been like to know him, that a seventeen or
Speaker 1: eighteen year old kid who knew exactly what he wanted,
Speaker 1: and what he wanted was immortality. Here's the sample, chapter four.
Speaker 1: Here's how the chapter would have started out. The build
Speaker 1: up before the draft was a very exciting and scary
Speaker 1: time for me because I really didn't know what was
Speaker 1: going to happen. All I knew is that my dream
Speaker 1: was about to be answered. I just didn't know where
Speaker 1: I was going to live my dream. That was from
Speaker 1: one of the chapters that Jeremy had written from Kobe's perspective.
Speaker 1: There were three or four chapters like that in that
Speaker 1: cardboard box, each of them about ten pages long, preserved
Speaker 1: for a quarter century. I've listened to the tapes sometimes too,
Speaker 1: to get a feel for Kobe, for his voice. It
Speaker 1: was like my own little space of living Kobe history,
Speaker 1: right there in my office. The thing is, Jeremy didn't
Speaker 1: even listen to the tapes before he let me have them.
Speaker 1: It wasn't until I met him on Long Child in
Speaker 1: August several months later, and I played him a bit
Speaker 1: of them that he heard them for the first time
Speaker 1: in more than twenty years. When was the last time
Speaker 1: you heard any of these? Day Kobe got rid of
Speaker 1: his family today assault ended. Two thousand one was the
Speaker 1: year that Jeremy's relationship with Kobe changed, because Kobe's relationship
Speaker 1: with his family changed. Two thousand one was the year
Speaker 1: that Kobe married his wife, Vanessa, which led to a
Speaker 1: falling out between him and his parents, Joe and Pam.
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of speculation about why the Bryant
Speaker 1: family fractured as it did. From what I gathered and
Speaker 1: talking to people who knew Kobe well back then, the
Speaker 1: problem came down to this. Kobe felt like he was
Speaker 1: ready to move fully into adulthood to get married, and
Speaker 1: his parents thought he was too young. That separation marked
Speaker 1: the moment symbolically and practically that Kobe he left much
Speaker 1: of his Lower Marian life behind, not all of it.
Speaker 1: He kept in contact with Greg Downer, and he visit
Speaker 1: his old high school every year or so, but for
Speaker 1: the most part he had become a Laker, fully engaged
Speaker 1: in his NBA career, in his life on the West Coast,
Speaker 1: and in Los Angeles culture, of beautiful weather and famous people.
Speaker 1: He got used to the public adulation, the love from
Speaker 1: the fans. The wonder and naive te you heard in
Speaker 1: that opening clip I played for you at the beginning
Speaker 1: of this episode, slowly disappeared. He got used to getting
Speaker 1: clothes for free, more and more lower Marian and the
Speaker 1: friends he had made there were receding into Kobe's past.
Speaker 1: For example, after he entered the n b A, he
Speaker 1: stayed in touch with his former teammate Guys Stewart for
Speaker 1: a while, but just a while. I think the first
Speaker 1: tour three years, we talked pretty frequent whenever he would
Speaker 1: come to play the Sixers or you know, when the
Speaker 1: season was over, he would be home and we would
Speaker 1: hang out. And then I think, you know, as the
Speaker 1: bigger he got, he worked even harder, if even if
Speaker 1: that was even possible, because he wasn't the type of
Speaker 1: guy that was just going to get to the league
Speaker 1: and be like, all right, I'm in the league, that's
Speaker 1: that's okay. No. He he wanted to get to the league,
Speaker 1: and he wanted to dominate the league, and he wanted
Speaker 1: to be the best ever. Um So he worked like
Speaker 1: it and with your work ethic your schedule becomes crazier,
Speaker 1: and you know, you just naturally drift apart. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm in school, I'm studying, and I'm kind of doing
Speaker 1: my own thing, and he's doing his own thing. But
Speaker 1: it was never any love loss. It was whenever we
Speaker 1: got together or talked on the phone, it was great.
Speaker 1: It was like we never missed a beat. So for
Speaker 1: the first three years we talked pretty pretty frequent, and
Speaker 1: then it kind of doing go down a lot more
Speaker 1: um the years after that, Jeremy's relationship with Kobe evolved,
Speaker 1: if that's the right word for it, in the same way.
Speaker 1: And remember he hadn't been close just to Kobe. He
Speaker 1: had been tight with the entire Bryant clam If there
Speaker 1: wasn't a clean break between him and Kobe. As Kobe
Speaker 1: moved on from Lower Marian and progressed in his pro career,
Speaker 1: there was certainly more distance between them. But during that
Speaker 1: day Jeremy and I spent together on Long Beach Island.
Speaker 1: This year, I could tell that listening to the tapes
Speaker 1: closed some of that distance. For Jeremy. It had been
Speaker 1: nearly thirty years since he met Kobe. It had been
Speaker 1: twenty five years since he was there on the aces
Speaker 1: sideline celebrating a state championship with Kobe. It had been
Speaker 1: twenty years since he heard the tapes, but that special
Speaker 1: period of time was fresh in his memory. Kobe had
Speaker 1: been dead for a year and a half, but he
Speaker 1: was alive in Jeremy's mind and heart. It wasn't about money,
Speaker 1: was about fame. I wanted to be a part of
Speaker 1: Copy's life. I absolutely I love the kid, I love
Speaker 1: the family. I loved him. I'm Mike Sealsky and from
Speaker 1: the Version podcasts, this is I am Kobe the West
Speaker 1: settle to Create Myself, Create Yourself, Stay nice on Create Yourself.
Speaker 1: Got a lot of really great mass, but we gained
Speaker 1: last sets Getting Time Episode nine, The Bond that Broke.
Speaker 1: Before he joined Greg Downer's coaching staff at Lower Merion
Speaker 1: High School in the fall of Jeremy already had gotten
Speaker 1: to know Kobe and the rest of the Bryant's pretty well.
Speaker 1: He and Joe had met when they were both coaching
Speaker 1: at a Keba Hebrew academy, and that connection allowed Jeremy
Speaker 1: to enter Kobe's inner circle. But it wasn't until Lower
Speaker 1: Marian's Christmas time trip to Myrtle Beach for the Beach
Speaker 1: Fall Classic that he and Kobe really bonded. They had
Speaker 1: to bond on that trip. They were roommates for it.
Speaker 1: The team stayed in Myrtle Beach for five nights, and
Speaker 1: the players and coaches had modest accommodations in town at
Speaker 1: the Swamp Fox Motel, not far from the city's convention center,
Speaker 1: where the tournament was being helped. The original plan was
Speaker 1: for Kobe to room with Greg Downer's brother Drew, who
Speaker 1: you'll remember from episode four was one of the team's
Speaker 1: assistant coaches, but that plan changed. Here's Jeremy. Kobe did
Speaker 1: not want to room with True Downer. So I guess
Speaker 1: Gregg on tent was, I'm gonna have my biggest enforcement
Speaker 1: guy at room with Kobe and make sure he's safe
Speaker 1: and make sure nobody messes with him. And I think
Speaker 1: Kobe said to me, like, you know, I want to
Speaker 1: room with you up there. I'm like, fline with me,
Speaker 1: and then Toby go tell Greg and he did. Why
Speaker 1: do you think he wanted to room with you? I
Speaker 1: think he wanted to room with me because we were close,
Speaker 1: and because it's this one adult on the entire trip.
Speaker 1: That would keep secrets. It would be me. And so
Speaker 1: what if everybody thought he was sleeping but he was
Speaker 1: out being a girl, or if he was out playing
Speaker 1: or Mr Curfew, I wouldn't tell him. I would have
Speaker 1: to say that's true, and I would have to say
Speaker 1: I had zero problem with it. I was flattered and honored,
Speaker 1: you know, to be rooming with him. At this point,
Speaker 1: Jeremy already he had approached Kobe and his parents with
Speaker 1: the idea of writing a book about him. They loved
Speaker 1: the idea and thought he was the perfect person to
Speaker 1: do it. Now he and Kobe would have plenty of
Speaker 1: time together to talk. Their sweet had two bedrooms, a
Speaker 1: smaller one in the front and a larger one in
Speaker 1: the back. Jeremy figured that as the coach and as
Speaker 1: the adult, he would take the bigger rooms. Seemed natural,
Speaker 1: So I put my stuff in the back bags put
Speaker 1: back on the first. Bet He says, why don't you
Speaker 1: stay here? And then you know, then you can hang
Speaker 1: out with being come out sometimes and hang out with
Speaker 1: the bean in the back. He said to Bet. He
Speaker 1: never said the bean to me, ever, he was charming me.
Speaker 1: He said, why why you let me stay back here?
Speaker 1: I'll come over here well, and then you can come back.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you can hang out with the bean. We could
Speaker 1: talk about stuff, we could work on the book. The
Speaker 1: setup seemed ideal for Jeremy to get to know the
Speaker 1: best high school player in the country even better than
Speaker 1: he already did. There was just one thing that worried.
Speaker 1: I was only nervous about getting the bathroom wet and
Speaker 1: having him slipped and causing the end of Kobe Bryant's career.
Speaker 1: And that's the neurotically Jewish man in me, because I
Speaker 1: come from a family where my older brother would splash
Speaker 1: the bathup so bad we'd all come in there, go
Speaker 1: fly in. And I was I was honestly nervous about that.
Speaker 1: I was almost afraid to take a shower because I'm
Speaker 1: known to just let the water fly all over the place.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, Nope, my roommate's Kobe Briant. I can't
Speaker 1: do that. Hey, this is Mike Sealsky, host and writer
Speaker 1: of I Am Kobe. This podcast project came out of
Speaker 1: my work on a related book called The Rise Kobe
Speaker 1: Bryant and the Pursuit of Immortality. If you want to
Speaker 1: explore other parts of Kobe's story. Check out the Rise.
Speaker 1: It's not just a book version of the podcast. I
Speaker 1: dive deeper into some of the topics covered in the series,
Speaker 1: and even some that we don't cover at all. Kobe's upbringing,
Speaker 1: his family, his identity, his effect on his friends and teammates,
Speaker 1: his journey into the NBA, and his earliest days with
Speaker 1: the Lakers. The Rise Kobe Bryant and the Pursuit of
Speaker 1: Immortality is out now. Just head over to the Rise
Speaker 1: of Kobe book dot com and you can buy it
Speaker 1: from any of your favorite retailers. That's The Rise of
Speaker 1: Kobe Book dot com. Thanks. I've spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time in this series diving into the crucial moments in
Speaker 1: Kobe's early life. Well, this was a crucial moment for Jeremy.
Speaker 1: He was realizing that he didn't really want to write
Speaker 1: for a newspaper anymore, that he didn't want to be
Speaker 1: on the outside when it came to sports. He didn't
Speaker 1: want to write about the games. He wanted to have
Speaker 1: a direct hand in the games. He wanted to coach them,
Speaker 1: set up and schedule them, promote them. He wanted to
Speaker 1: be on the inside. And I can understand why when
Speaker 1: he was a kid growing up in Lower Merion Township.
Speaker 1: Just like Kobe, Jeremy had always been on the outside
Speaker 1: of things. His family was one of the first Jewish
Speaker 1: families to move into his neighborhood in the nineteen seventies,
Speaker 1: and he had jumped up a grade in school. So
Speaker 1: even though he was as smart or smarter than all
Speaker 1: the other students in class, he was younger and smaller.
Speaker 1: That's a tough spot for a kid. And Jeremy told
Speaker 1: me that back then he dealt with a lot of bullying,
Speaker 1: a lot of teasing, and a lot of behavior that well,
Speaker 1: let's just say, the kids who weren't Jewish weren't getting
Speaker 1: treated as harshly as he was. But he had been
Speaker 1: accepted by Kobe and the Bryant's. That meant a lot
Speaker 1: to him, and now he had a chance to learn
Speaker 1: as much as he could about Coupe, to get to
Speaker 1: know him on a more personal, intimate level, and to
Speaker 1: help tell his story in their book. He didn't get
Speaker 1: that chance because he was a reporter for a big newspaper.
Speaker 1: He got it because he was part of the Lower
Speaker 1: Marian program and part of Kobe's life was it at
Speaker 1: that point more important to you to be on the
Speaker 1: inside with Kobe than on the outside covering him. Definitely,
Speaker 1: I definitely felt like it was a great opportunity be
Speaker 1: on the inside. I did know that he was going
Speaker 1: to be jumping. I'm I'm almost positive because I do
Speaker 1: remember Joe also called me saying, well, I wanted you
Speaker 1: to be on the staff. And they had both discussed
Speaker 1: with me that it's going to go from high school
Speaker 1: the NBA. And I had this idea my freshman year
Speaker 1: in the NBA by Kobe Bryant with Jeremy Treatment, and
Speaker 1: they both said absolutely, just such a novelty. He was
Speaker 1: just such an unbelievable story at the time. There's no arts,
Speaker 1: There's no well educated person who didn't need money jumping
Speaker 1: in the NBA in the history of the NBA. And
Speaker 1: it was a unique story. A kid who didn't grow
Speaker 1: up here, who appealed to everybody. I mean, he was
Speaker 1: just clean cutter, marking kid that you know, every everybody
Speaker 1: was falling in love with. That was one of the
Speaker 1: big reasons that Jeremy thought people would go gaga for
Speaker 1: a book about Kobe. There was just enough of an
Speaker 1: edge to him that he would be intriguing Kobe Bryant
Speaker 1: decided to see my talents to uh No, I have
Speaker 1: decided to skip Collins and my talents in NBA. Thanks
Speaker 1: to the trade that the Lakers made but the Charlotte
Speaker 1: Hornets to get him, he'd be playing for one of
Speaker 1: the NBA's premier franchises, maybe it's most prestigious franchise as
Speaker 1: Magic ever, Consul, do you ever told you anything about
Speaker 1: the game? Um? Not really. We really had really had
Speaker 1: an opportunity and saw so far this season. But I'm
Speaker 1: definitely looking forward to having some conversation with him and
Speaker 1: his background. His upbringing in Italy and in Lower Marian
Speaker 1: His father's playing and coaching careers set him apart from most,
Speaker 1: if not all, of his peers. One time, Jeremy showed
Speaker 1: me a list he had made of all the topics
Speaker 1: he wanted to cover with Kobe in their book. The
Speaker 1: list went on for several pages, because I don't think
Speaker 1: it funny something years ago. Yes, smiles on the academic,
Speaker 1: but he wasn't allowed to play basketball unless you's done
Speaker 1: his homework. Kenney. He had toy stories like that, so
Speaker 1: I know I know he got his homework on. I
Speaker 1: know he his work seriously, and I think that. I
Speaker 1: think the background in Italy, where school was important um
Speaker 1: properly really helps in that. Plus, Jeremy had access to
Speaker 1: Kobe and had earned his trust at a pivotal time
Speaker 1: in Kobe's life. Kobe had been well known in the
Speaker 1: Philadelphia area and in basketball circles, but now that he
Speaker 1: was a professional athlete, he was starting to experience a
Speaker 1: different kind of existence. It was one thing to take
Speaker 1: Brandy to the prom a is a pr move, and
Speaker 1: have some of his classmates resent him for it. It
Speaker 1: was another thing to have strangers know you were a
Speaker 1: first round draft pick and a multimillionaire and to have
Speaker 1: them think you owed them something. Here's one example Kobe
Speaker 1: told Jeremy about after the Lakers had traded for him,
Speaker 1: he went to a house party in West Philadelphia. I
Speaker 1: don't believe it is We'll tell you that one time.
Speaker 1: This flash party. You pay to knowledge to get here
Speaker 1: in West Philadelphia. I know, whatever side for a little bit,
Speaker 1: come out, We walk around. This girl comes up, a
Speaker 1: good looking girl, you know what I'm saying. Comes to
Speaker 1: He's like be around, like, yeah, can you near me?
Speaker 1: Ten dollars? I was like uh huh. You're like, I
Speaker 1: don't have any money. I want to I really want
Speaker 1: to get this blast body blocks, but I'm like, you
Speaker 1: got all this money he was to dollars. I'm like,
Speaker 1: if I know, I'm be like, look, this is my
Speaker 1: damn money. And then I'm saying I work for this money.
Speaker 1: I just like, um um, She's like, bro, I'll pay
Speaker 1: you back. I'm melingant down to the Lakers. I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I'm like, can you believe I'm not believe I'm hearing this.
Speaker 1: I cannot believe it. I was just like I finally
Speaker 1: came up with something. I said, I'm sorry, I only
Speaker 1: have plastic. Like all that money, you can't be carrying
Speaker 1: around in cash. I only have plastic. They take plastic
Speaker 1: and then they take visa mask. I'll hook you up.
Speaker 1: They don't. You can't think that for you. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know you got money, you got plastic. You want
Speaker 1: me to do break the plasket? You know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: So I'll made it's in the Lakers, look right National Bank.
Speaker 1: It was those kinds of funny personal anecdotes that Jeremy
Speaker 1: thought would make the book appealing first to publishers. And
Speaker 1: then to readers, I have to say, my freshman year
Speaker 1: in the n b A isn't a bad title, and
Speaker 1: the idea of an inside look at Kobe's last year
Speaker 1: of high school and first year of pro ball definitely
Speaker 1: had some allure. But the book couldn't be something that
Speaker 1: Jeremy worked on whenever he felt like it or whenever
Speaker 1: he had a free moment. He would have to make
Speaker 1: a major commitment of effort and time. So would Kobe,
Speaker 1: and Jeremy wondered how the project might change the nature
Speaker 1: of their relationship. I certainly was curious about it. I
Speaker 1: mean I certainly thought I was, you know, I was
Speaker 1: hoping that I was gonna have a role or hoping
Speaker 1: to be out in Los Angeles because, uh, the dad
Speaker 1: said he wanted me to be around him, you know,
Speaker 1: stay around him, whether it was with the buckle or
Speaker 1: anything else. So you know, I was. I was invited
Speaker 1: there many times. I mean I think I was out
Speaker 1: there eight eight times or so the first couple of years,
Speaker 1: and he was getting good stuff. It took some prodding
Speaker 1: and coaxing, but once Kobe started to live in NBA life,
Speaker 1: he gradually got more open with Jeremy more revealing. You
Speaker 1: listen to these tapes and you really do get an
Speaker 1: inside look at what Kobe was thinking when he was
Speaker 1: eighteen nineteen years old. Here he is talking about how
Speaker 1: he approached his entrance to the NBA and the expectations
Speaker 1: that people would have him. I didn't want to come
Speaker 1: in like the shaquillo, like maybe I could press weapon.
Speaker 1: Why has all these expectations? Ryan noys him? And even
Speaker 1: if you're performing great, still not good enough. It's never
Speaker 1: gonna be thesplicating people for kind eat and then sneak
Speaker 1: up more people. Nexting people are saying, oh great, you
Speaker 1: know that. That's how I always want to down people,
Speaker 1: more people, kind of like a shark. That's a fascinating
Speaker 1: piece of tape. I had never thought of Kobe as
Speaker 1: sneaking up on anyone when it came to basketball. He
Speaker 1: struck me more as being like Nukeluloche, the hotshot pitching
Speaker 1: prospect played by Tim Robbins in Bull Durham. I always
Speaker 1: felt like Kobe wanted to announce his presence with authority.
Speaker 1: I was a little Mary and I'm a lad No.
Speaker 1: I was kind of surprised and shot at first, but
Speaker 1: you know now, I was just like, Okay, now I
Speaker 1: don't want to win a championship. I'm not stepping in
Speaker 1: there saying okay, I just want to have a next
Speaker 1: movie season. If you get a championship five, if it
Speaker 1: wasn't kinda five, not like that. I want to give
Speaker 1: this championship I want to get. And now it's gonna
Speaker 1: be like that every every year. I won't tell me
Speaker 1: ship next year. Next year, I'm coming back and say, look, man,
Speaker 1: I'm wanna get a chimpship. A cam say shot, come on, man,
Speaker 1: let's go. Let's get this. Get another one Michael got
Speaker 1: for Let's get five. Man, come on, let's go. And
Speaker 1: I'm saying, so that's how it's gonna be from this
Speaker 1: point where you can hear how much deeper Kobe's voice
Speaker 1: is here compared to the earlier tapes. He doesn't sound
Speaker 1: like a kid anymore, and no one's treating him like
Speaker 1: a kid anymore. Take the first time he met Magic Johnson.
Speaker 1: Kobe described the entire encounter to Jeremy. The circumstances were
Speaker 1: exactly what you would have expected. They met in a
Speaker 1: gym and played pick up at first steps jenneral you
Speaker 1: said ratter and he comes and walk through the door.
Speaker 1: I looked back on the steps and I still welcome
Speaker 1: to the man. He comes up to me, have you
Speaker 1: left my mom? I'm doing I'm doing good. So out
Speaker 1: of seats on sneakers and temptops. So he's playing. I'm like, alright, cool,
Speaker 1: I can go over against Magic. So the first couple
Speaker 1: totally leaves game. Just pick up games. I first THI
Speaker 1: the games were the same team. Then I have to
Speaker 1: we against each other. That were like three games they like.
Speaker 1: So he comes back like the Newt's day. And when
Speaker 1: it was like three games, you know, he's now whatever.
Speaker 1: We're talking trash each other. Um. Sometimes sometimes sometimes you
Speaker 1: would come out like I can remember one time we
Speaker 1: had to picking a rule and I feel we forced
Speaker 1: him to switch out so I had to win. So
Speaker 1: we got as isolation somebody related with magic. So I'm
Speaker 1: looking right, I'm not really playing that much attention. I'm like, man,
Speaker 1: hold up, I got Maggie baby. You take him to
Speaker 1: the hut. Do you take him to the rule some
Speaker 1: bank or go to the route and I going for
Speaker 1: for laver on one side, so you try to found it.
Speaker 1: Another guy comes up and steps up from the baseline,
Speaker 1: So I hang and I go to the other slide,
Speaker 1: scooped it, laid off the glass and I was like
Speaker 1: yeah and one oh, okay, okay, okay, that's move. That's
Speaker 1: move for me. This was one of the coolest and
Speaker 1: most revealing aspects of listening to Jeremy's KVIE tapes. He
Speaker 1: had captured a moment in time, a fleeting period before
Speaker 1: all the familiar narratives about Kobe had begun to unfurl.
Speaker 1: The triumphs, the feuds, the grudges, the mistakes. Take his
Speaker 1: biggest nemesis with the Lakers, literally and figuratively, Shaquille O'Neil.
Speaker 1: For years, those two superstars battled over who was the
Speaker 1: team's real alpha dog. It was the NBA's answer to
Speaker 1: General Hospital for All My Children, a soap opera that
Speaker 1: went on and on and on. Conversation during the Shack years,
Speaker 1: were you guys friends? But listened to Kobe here talking
Speaker 1: to Jeremy about his early relationship with the big flat
Speaker 1: man that has been my older brother than Big went
Speaker 1: since he got called me in the balls by at
Speaker 1: my house and we talked a little bit. He's like,
Speaker 1: d called me up. I'll adopted and you know it
Speaker 1: was rut. But that's got like a older brother. You know,
Speaker 1: they went when you just had the jury. You know,
Speaker 1: I told him if you need to come to the house,
Speaker 1: so he'll get awayful get away from me any day. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know all Kavi may or whatever me up. So
Speaker 1: who had they went? Kobe did not say the same
Speaker 1: thing about his first coach with the Lakers, Del Harris.
Speaker 1: Because Kobe spent so many years with Phil Jackson and
Speaker 1: won those five championships with him, people sometimes forget that
Speaker 1: Harris was Kobe's first pro coach. He was a veteran
Speaker 1: of the league, white haired, very personable, and they had
Speaker 1: a backstory together. Amazingly, Harris had coached Kobe's dad, Joe,
Speaker 1: during Joe's only season with the Houston Rockets back in
Speaker 1: eighty three. Then Harrison Kobe met during one of Kobe's
Speaker 1: predraft workouts with the Lakers before Jerry West pulled off
Speaker 1: the trade to get it Pray Carson and said, you
Speaker 1: know we're gonna make some move gets you And he
Speaker 1: didn't do that, all right, whatever what I'm saying. And
Speaker 1: we had closed my father and that's basically good first
Speaker 1: and President of eyes. I just laid back sounds anocuus right,
Speaker 1: like hed get along with Harris okay right, Nope. After
Speaker 1: his first season with the Lakers was finished in Kobe
Speaker 1: sat down with Jeremy for another session with the tape
Speaker 1: recorder and he unloaded on his coach, Jenny Keny says
Speaker 1: each other. Then I get him there, I'm playing a game.
Speaker 1: I'll make a move, I said. I get to the
Speaker 1: room and she was a little pulled up the drop shot.
Speaker 1: I miss it. So I'm going back to the times
Speaker 1: like you can't do these moves in the NBA, he
Speaker 1: went the hostel don't work here. I'm like, ship, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be a lnge season. That's gonna be a long mass.
Speaker 1: I can see you sucking. He's in preseason game, the
Speaker 1: first Pieceason guy, one of them, one of the needs
Speaker 1: here against against the old thing I'm doing, and comes
Speaker 1: to the league in the first place. He's just looking
Speaker 1: at every little thing. Shoot me, don know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: The holds the old season helping down. It's kind of
Speaker 1: funny because the people, even people don't want to see
Speaker 1: what's going on, but they don't know who's going on.
Speaker 1: But I think it's impossible not to see who's going
Speaker 1: on because it's the same gay as I stopped and
Speaker 1: like nothings down. I don't play that or what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: So it's it's kind of red. But I've just been like,
Speaker 1: you know, overre, I just if you're playing, I gank
Speaker 1: you went do the things I've been doing. The idea
Speaker 1: that Kobe should haved just his game at all, that
Speaker 1: he should I don't know listen to his coach doesn't
Speaker 1: even enter his mind. I don't know whether to admire
Speaker 1: it or shake my head at it. No, I don't
Speaker 1: even care. I don't even think about it. I knew,
Speaker 1: I knew where he was at, I knew when he
Speaker 1: was doing. I've just been like, all right, suck it.
Speaker 1: God didn't play and do my thing. You're gonna pull
Speaker 1: me out and pull me out. Sat it on a
Speaker 1: couple of times. You know, going there and do your thing,
Speaker 1: play your game. If the game come to you, but
Speaker 1: God didn't do your thing. If he pulls out, he
Speaker 1: pulls you out, it you're gonna pull you out anyway.
Speaker 1: I knew it was coming, and I'm saying it's inevitable.
Speaker 1: He's always always looking for for the time to sit
Speaker 1: me down inside, try to get me frustraed off because
Speaker 1: he came out of pro problem. I think it's maybe, man,
Speaker 1: I don't even care. Jeremy was feeling pretty good about
Speaker 1: how his book project with Kobe was shaping up, and
Speaker 1: I don't blame him. I know I would have felt
Speaker 1: good if I had heard Kobe rip his coach on
Speaker 1: the record like you just heard. That's a natural feeling
Speaker 1: for any author. During the research portion of writing a book,
Speaker 1: you realize you're getting good stuff, stuff no one has
Speaker 1: heard or read before, and all you can see in
Speaker 1: your head is people paging through the book saying to
Speaker 1: their friends or the people next to them, can you
Speaker 1: believe what Kobe says about Del Harris? You see everyone
Speaker 1: reacting to the book exactly like you want them to,
Speaker 1: and you see yourself selling a million copies. But Jeremy
Speaker 1: had a few factors working against him. For instance, we
Speaker 1: might forget that although Kobe was well known around the
Speaker 1: country at that point, it was only because he was
Speaker 1: such a young player and had skipped college and went
Speaker 1: straight to the n b A. He wasn't a superstar yet,
Speaker 1: he wasn't at the level of Michael Jordan's or Chemola
Speaker 1: Juan or Patrick Ewing. So how many people would really
Speaker 1: buy the book? Not very many. Apparently Jeremy was working
Speaker 1: with rn Telling, Kobe's basketball agent, and Kobe's talent reps
Speaker 1: at the William Morris Agency to try to drum up
Speaker 1: interest from publishers. Nothing seemed to be happening, and no
Speaker 1: one seemed to want to publish it. And all the
Speaker 1: while you're trying to find the publisher for the book.
Speaker 1: How was that going? Um? Well, I left out in
Speaker 1: the hands of arn Tellent and the william Rs agent, say,
Speaker 1: and they had a manuscript of mind, and I think
Speaker 1: I gave me example chapters or something. Uh. They told
Speaker 1: me if I couldn't get an offer or a good
Speaker 1: enough offer, I'm not sure which, So it was just
Speaker 1: put It was just put on hold so that you know,
Speaker 1: and Josa, don't worry, we'll do it. We'll do it
Speaker 1: at another time. What were your expectations made? No, I
Speaker 1: never did anything like that before. I thought I was
Speaker 1: gonna be good. I mean I thought it was. I
Speaker 1: certainly was surprised. I thought, well, maybe maybe it was me,
Speaker 1: Maybe my writing wasn't good. Or maybe I didn't have
Speaker 1: a name, or maybe you know, maybe they wanted, uh
Speaker 1: a bigger name. I was just happy that at the
Speaker 1: time Kobe said, no, nobody else hasn't in this but you.
Speaker 1: So that was nice to hear. I'll never forget, you know,
Speaker 1: he said that. He said that more than one occasion.
Speaker 1: Jeremy had to love that. It had to fill him
Speaker 1: with confidence and optimism that the two of them would
Speaker 1: finish the book and it would be great. But Jeremy's
Speaker 1: admiration and affection for Kobe were the source of his
Speaker 1: other problem. What was the nature of their relationship? Now?
Speaker 1: They weren't roommates anymore. They weren't coaching player or pr
Speaker 1: reppin player. They were writer and subject with the requisite
Speaker 1: distance between those roles. Were were they when Jeremy and
Speaker 1: Greg Downer came out to l A and hung out
Speaker 1: with Kobe and the Bryant family in Kobe's whirlpool? Were
Speaker 1: they writer and subject? Then? Sometimes? I mean, you're right,
Speaker 1: it was sub times I was like, Okay, you might
Speaker 1: here's his friend and if hears a lower marine guy,
Speaker 1: you might where am I here as somebody doing a book.
Speaker 1: I was sort of all great, and it was definitely, uh,
Speaker 1: a gray area. Did you get any sense that he
Speaker 1: was pulling away from Laura Marian from you, from that
Speaker 1: stage of his life and moving on to whatever Los
Speaker 1: Angeles and the NBA who's gonna have in store for him?
Speaker 1: Not in an unnatural way. I'm just in a progressive
Speaker 1: life way, I think. Yeah, yeah, I think this focus
Speaker 1: was on Lakers for sure. I didn't. I didn't feel
Speaker 1: he was leaving anything behind though. You know, it was
Speaker 1: a living with his parents, living with this one sister.
Speaker 1: We had a lot of his friends from Winwood came
Speaker 1: out to l A the first couple of years. I
Speaker 1: thought he had an agenda, and I thought he was
Speaker 1: private about it. I I noticed the privateness about him.
Speaker 1: He just there's a workout in Maniac would tell me
Speaker 1: the schedule, you know, the words. Kobe was growing up,
Speaker 1: he was living in the tunnel that was his pro
Speaker 1: basketball career. He had less time to devote to sitting
Speaker 1: down with Jeremy for the book, and as his game
Speaker 1: improved and his celebrity grew, it was natural for him
Speaker 1: to be less inclined to make time. Jeremy had written
Speaker 1: those few chapters, but he didn't have enough material from
Speaker 1: Kobe for a full manuscript, and in time he realized
Speaker 1: he wasn't going to get enough. If a publisher had
Speaker 1: given him and Kobe a half million dollar advanced for
Speaker 1: the book, it's probably a safe bet Kobe would have
Speaker 1: made time for it, but no one did so it
Speaker 1: would have been understandable with Kobe drifted away or lost interest.
Speaker 1: How big a disappointment was it that the book set
Speaker 1: my disappointment? I mean, I was disappointed that it never
Speaker 1: never got it to the shelves. But I never felt
Speaker 1: any wrongdoing by the Bryant's. They were very good to me.
Speaker 1: Um Kobe and Joe sponsored my company the first three
Speaker 1: years in the league. They're very gracious hosting me. I
Speaker 1: never thought it was that at any there was. I
Speaker 1: trusted Arn't Tell and told me it just didn't sell
Speaker 1: what and then things changed with the family dynamic and
Speaker 1: Arn't Town wasn't staging anymore and just kind of fell apart.
Speaker 1: Kobe and Tell them ended their professional relationship during the
Speaker 1: two thousand, two thousand one season. Was there ever a
Speaker 1: falling out, a distancing between you and Kobe at any point? No, nothing, No,
Speaker 1: Jeremy remained loyal to Kobe publicly and privately throughout Kobe's
Speaker 1: entire twenty year tenure in the NBA. If they had
Speaker 1: a falling out, you never knew it from talking to Jeremy.
Speaker 1: Even during the darkest times of Kobe's life, even when
Speaker 1: Kobe put his very freedom at risk and in the
Speaker 1: eyes of many people, became a villain forever, even when
Speaker 1: he was charged with sexual assault in two thousand three
Speaker 1: and two thousand four, Jeremy supported him. In fact, Jeremy
Speaker 1: went on national television frequently to defend it. Wait a
Speaker 1: pushy o our sense of entire ever just never just
Speaker 1: the opposite. In fact, you know, the first two or
Speaker 1: three years, even when it was in Los Angeles, I
Speaker 1: was still remember the press then had press passes, been
Speaker 1: in the locker room, and I saw I saw girls
Speaker 1: of women try to get to him, and he wouldn't
Speaker 1: have anything to do with it. It wouldn't have anything
Speaker 1: to do with it. Was always very polite, just kept
Speaker 1: walking by, gave a smile. I mean, he didn't fall
Speaker 1: for any of that at all. All right, Jeremy, thank
Speaker 1: you very much. I was very upset that people who
Speaker 1: didn't know Kobe were being interviewed every night, and Kobe
Speaker 1: Bryant was this pride that was being talked about every
Speaker 1: single night. I have no idea what happened. I never
Speaker 1: discussed it with anybody. I don't know, but all I
Speaker 1: know is I wanted to get let anybody. I mean,
Speaker 1: I got millions of calls to come on, as did Greg,
Speaker 1: as did Lakers, as the tons of people and and
Speaker 1: and people didn't do those interviews. So who ends up
Speaker 1: being on the CNN S and Box and MSNBC s
Speaker 1: and CBS is every night professor from so and so, uh,
Speaker 1: woman from sexual assault thing over here, and and and
Speaker 1: just listen to these talking heads, just talk talk, talk talk,
Speaker 1: And do do you know Kobe Bryant? Have you ever
Speaker 1: met him? Do you know? I mean that you know?
Speaker 1: And I saw him getting dissed every night for hours
Speaker 1: and hour was an hour. So whenever a network reached
Speaker 1: out to him for an interview, Jeremy had three conditions
Speaker 1: before he would agree to appear. One, the host wasn't
Speaker 1: allowed to call him coach. Two, the host could not
Speaker 1: bring up whatever happened in Colorado. Jeremy didn't know what
Speaker 1: happened in Colorado, And he wouldn't comment on it. And three,
Speaker 1: the host couldn't ask Jeremy about anything Kobe had done
Speaker 1: or said since two thousand one because Jeremy hadn't had
Speaker 1: a relationship with him since two thousand one. Kobe never
Speaker 1: cut him off formally or officially. There had been no
Speaker 1: cold and abrupt halt in their relationship, just a gradual
Speaker 1: distancing as Kobe progressed with his life and Jeremy progressed
Speaker 1: with his. It was similar to what happened with Jeremy's book.
Speaker 1: It just kind of went away. Jeremy missed Kobe, of course,
Speaker 1: but he didn't blame him. He just it what he
Speaker 1: had always done. He stood by it in public, in private,
Speaker 1: and on and TV. One thing I can't do is
Speaker 1: I can tell the truth about how great I think
Speaker 1: this guy is and how great a person he was
Speaker 1: and a student and respectful person he was. And I mean,
Speaker 1: I can talk about what I know, and I have
Speaker 1: only nice things to say, and I'm tired of singing
Speaker 1: people trash him all other place. So that's why I
Speaker 1: did it. Look, let's be real here. Superstar athletes have
Speaker 1: hangers on. They have people who follow them around ready
Speaker 1: to satisfy their every win. Kobe had people like that
Speaker 1: around him too, but Jeremy wasn't that. He wasn't one
Speaker 1: of those people. This devotion to Kobe wasn't conditional if
Speaker 1: teammates or coaches or media members were criticizing Kobe. The
Speaker 1: essence of what I said has covered in the book
Speaker 1: and was basically that I don't think I can coach
Speaker 1: Kobe anymore. I can't reach him. And if you want
Speaker 1: me to continue on with this ball club, then the
Speaker 1: change has to be made. And if you want Kobe
Speaker 1: on this ball club, then I have to go. Even
Speaker 1: if Kobe was deserving of that criticism, check it. You
Speaker 1: know how I blas me. Kobe couldn't do without me.
Speaker 1: You know how lasswe Kobe could do without me. Jeremy
Speaker 1: was going to stand up for him no matter what.
Speaker 1: And I think it's noteworthy that Jeremy doesn't just defend
Speaker 1: Kobe as this superstar player, he defends him as a
Speaker 1: great person. Yes, Kobe was a rare and exceptional athlete,
Speaker 1: but Jeremy always talked about how polite and smart he was,
Speaker 1: what a good teammate he was, how much he enjoyed
Speaker 1: the time they spent together. Jeremy really thought highly of
Speaker 1: Kobe as a young man. What you do for a friend.
Speaker 1: Other people are sick up when people didn't stick up
Speaker 1: for him for making his decision to go to the draft.
Speaker 1: From people who stick up for him, how good he was.
Speaker 1: And I think I told you this before. One of
Speaker 1: my friends wanted to go fist to fist when we
Speaker 1: got in a fight whether he was better than Curry
Speaker 1: Kettles as a high school player, and I said he's
Speaker 1: better than Curry girls right now, and they were That
Speaker 1: got pretty heated. I'm like, you'll say, you'll see said
Speaker 1: because I believe him, Kobe. I believe him as as
Speaker 1: a person. He's a good many. But I have to
Speaker 1: just stop here and ask an important question, was he
Speaker 1: was Kobe Bryant a good man? And what does that
Speaker 1: really mean? I've spent more than a year and a
Speaker 1: half digging into the first half of Kobe Bryant's life,
Speaker 1: reading everything I could about it, listening to people tell
Speaker 1: stories about him, pouring over these tapes for hours. There
Speaker 1: are a few people I know well enough to say
Speaker 1: for certain, yes, he is a good man. When it
Speaker 1: comes to Kobe, I know this. I know that he
Speaker 1: was a complex man. I know that he was a
Speaker 1: driven man with a passion and determination that are extremely rare,
Speaker 1: and that he was willing to live with the consequences
Speaker 1: and costs of that drive, the consequences of a deep
Speaker 1: thirst for excellence. In our next episode of this series,
Speaker 1: I'll do my best to take a measure of his legacy,
Speaker 1: especially in the wake of his untimely death. He knew
Speaker 1: that eventually I would become a great He knows that
Speaker 1: I would not have anything. But right now I haven't
Speaker 1: grown upon my hand, and you don't produce. Things been happening,
Speaker 1: and maybe I'll loose it. I'm really don't care about that.
Speaker 1: That's next week on I Am Kobe. I Am Kobe
Speaker 1: is a production of the Version podcasts in association with
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. This season is written and hosted by
Speaker 1: me Mike Sealsky. It's produced by Jacob Bronstein and directed
Speaker 1: by Mark Francis. Story editing by Jacob Bronstein, with editorial
Speaker 1: direction from Scott Waxman, Editing, mixing and sound design by
Speaker 1: Mark Francis. Stephen Tompkins is our production assistant. Our theme
Speaker 1: music is Create Yourself by Grover Brown. Featuring Justin Starling
Speaker 1: find Create Yourself wherever you stream music. Music supervisor is
Speaker 1: Scott Velasquez for Fressan Sinc. Executive producers are Mark Francis
Speaker 1: and Scott Waxman. Join the conversation about I Am Kobe
Speaker 1: on social media on Twitter and the Gram. It's at
Speaker 1: the Version pots thanks to Rain Rosenbaum, Susan Canavan and
Speaker 1: Jeremy Treatment. I Love I rise before the sun. They
Speaker 1: don't understand when I said the grind is fun. Never
Speaker 1: clock you out even when my work is done. If
Speaker 1: they're trying to block me, I might hurt someone through
Speaker 1: the blood sweat and says, we perseverit, stay killing in,
Speaker 1: let it, keep the horses. And then if they don't
Speaker 1: believe in themselves, gave revert to fit, not the Tampa's head.
Speaker 1: So I'm telling them, ask my am, this the reason
Speaker 1: why my work so damn different to the negatives. I
Speaker 1: can't listen see me at the time. You can't listen
Speaker 1: where I'm a vote to play like cash is see
Speaker 1: I pay my dudes because taxes gotta work. I thinking
Speaker 1: briand ahead of his time. Someone saying that they made you,
Speaker 1: don't tell them you create yourself the best Finn watch us,
Speaker 1: but that time you gotta stay clock then break clock
Speaker 1: break we create ourselves, watch me, question, watch Steve create
Speaker 1: my hell exact signs up, create yourself? Say nice, ain't
Speaker 1: so hard to create yourself. You gotta learn from the
Speaker 1: great minds. No, we ain't lying. To tell them next
Speaker 1: any time. This time wasn't giving it was made the future.
Speaker 1: Any time I could change better. Tell them that I've
Speaker 1: made it back home. As I walked through the hearts
Speaker 1: of the fame, I came from the valley of the shadow,
Speaker 1: with death waiting for us. Some spoons don't hold your breath,
Speaker 1: sat Town, sat Train. But I did it with less.
Speaker 1: I know them that to be so there's nothing to guess. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's nothing to guess. It's our times. Tell them we
Speaker 1: up next. We don't got any regrets. I did it
Speaker 1: with my soon hands, and we never forgets my a.
Speaker 1: This the reason why my im working so damn different
Speaker 1: to the negatives. I can't listen see me at the time.
Speaker 1: You can't listen for where rebuild, reach shape, give me
Speaker 1: your eye. You got to risk take do it now.
Speaker 1: When I'm saying why Braves, I was saying that they
Speaker 1: mayn't get. Tell them you create yourself around the best
Speaker 1: you finnel watch us by. It's by that time. You've
Speaker 1: gotta snake clack, then break black break we create yourself,
Speaker 1: watch me Qua, watch leave, create myself, exac Clie black Clie,
Speaker 1: signs up and create yourself. Tell you say nice, ain't
Speaker 1: go on? Create yourself. Gotta line from the great minds,
Speaker 1: so we ain't lyne Tell them next anytime. Diversion Podcasts