Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio
Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi everyone, and welcome
Speaker 1: back to Katie's Crib. This week, I'm rereleasing one of
Speaker 1: my early interviews back from We'll have a brand new
Speaker 1: episode up for you next week. Enjoy the conversation. Bye bye,
Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome back to Katie's Crib. In this episode,
Speaker 1: I'm talking to my dear, dear friend and birthday twin,
Speaker 1: Dan Buka Tinsky. Do you guys remember him? Me played
Speaker 1: James Novak. I'm just this scene of this little show
Speaker 1: called Scandal, and in addition to being an actor, Dan
Speaker 1: is a producer, a writer, and an author of the
Speaker 1: book called Does This Baby Make Me Look Straight? After Dan,
Speaker 1: I talked to an adoption attorney, David Boum. David has
Speaker 1: been practicing adoption law for over thirty five years, and
Speaker 1: as an adoptive parent himself, he breaks down everything we
Speaker 1: need to know about the adoption process. So let's get started.
Speaker 1: Sitting with me on my couch right now is literally
Speaker 1: one of my favorite fucking people on the planet by far.
Speaker 1: We are birthday twins. We are birthday twins. We met
Speaker 1: at Scandal, and it was like we had known each
Speaker 1: other since the beginning of time. Ladies and Gentlemen, the one,
Speaker 1: the only, Dan Buk and we've never ever, ever acted
Speaker 1: together on the screen in all those years. We never
Speaker 1: got that true one scene, not one scene when we're
Speaker 1: in together, when you came back in a flashback, even
Speaker 1: in an alternative reality. That's because Quinn just didn't exist.
Speaker 1: Gwin didn't exists in the in the world that I
Speaker 1: was in the bedroom the entire time, naked with Jeff
Speaker 1: Perry for the most part, like maybe up your but
Speaker 1: I had a couple of true I don't even get
Speaker 1: me started on that, but yeah, yeah, for the most part. Now,
Speaker 1: I worked with Tony and Bellamine and Josh and Carrie
Speaker 1: had ever Darby Folly shot me. So I've worked with
Speaker 1: everybody but you, Darby and Guillarmo actually and nobody on
Speaker 1: the open nobody. Yeah. Well, your work on Scandal is
Speaker 1: literally like the you and Jeff Perry scene is literally
Speaker 1: like probably one of my top three Scandal scenes of
Speaker 1: all time. Thank you for saying that you're acting is
Speaker 1: incredible and referring to my body that too, that too.
Speaker 1: Dan Bugatinski is a father of two adopted children correct
Speaker 1: and also wrote a genius book about the experience, Does
Speaker 1: Just Baby Make Me Look Straight? Which is a freaking
Speaker 1: amazing title. So, um, I don't know as available on audiobook? Yes,
Speaker 1: it's hilarious. Do you do the audio? Wow? I actually
Speaker 1: need to download that. How did you and Don, your
Speaker 1: incredible husband, who I'm also such a fan of, How
Speaker 1: did you guys come to the decision to adopt kids? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, we we decided to become parents first, and
Speaker 1: when we did, obviously for two guys that you have
Speaker 1: so few options, it's either surrogacy or adoption. Um. And
Speaker 1: you know, Don had a really strong feeling about not
Speaker 1: wanting to not wanting to go through this surrogacy for
Speaker 1: a bunch of different reasons. I didn't have as strong
Speaker 1: a feeling about wanting that or not wanting that, um.
Speaker 1: But he he had this feeling about not wanting there
Speaker 1: to be some kind of even if it, as it
Speaker 1: turns out, you know, these things really fade away. But
Speaker 1: the feeling at the time had to do with one
Speaker 1: person being biologically tied to that child and one of
Speaker 1: them not and how that would be different. And now,
Speaker 1: of course both of us have no DNA in common
Speaker 1: with our children and cannot imagine loving them more than
Speaker 1: we do without smothering them to death. That's the only
Speaker 1: type of thingle you think, like, how is this gonna work?
Speaker 1: And will I feel uncomfortable? And you're the sperm and
Speaker 1: I'm not the s and I think it had a
Speaker 1: lot of exactly. I think it was this fantasy of
Speaker 1: like when I look in the eyes of my children
Speaker 1: and I see you in there, where will I be?
Speaker 1: Will I disappear? So there's and that's a very completely
Speaker 1: normal and completely understandable feeling. There was this other aspect
Speaker 1: of it, which was we were unbelievably aware he has
Speaker 1: a niece and a nephew who are adopted, And there
Speaker 1: was a huge awareness of the number of children currently
Speaker 1: and babies currently born every day and who are currently
Speaker 1: in the foster system. And it was a desire to
Speaker 1: try to make a home for what is already what
Speaker 1: was already on our planet, as opposed to creating new
Speaker 1: life given the state of the planet that we're in. Um,
Speaker 1: so you said you already knew adoptive So Don's siblings
Speaker 1: was also an adoptive parents That was probably and helpful
Speaker 1: to have as an inspiration or it was certainly in
Speaker 1: that in the knowledge of that it was it was
Speaker 1: around us. Did you use a public or private agency? Independent?
Speaker 1: Opener closed, like, tell me the specifics of your adoption,
Speaker 1: and there are a lot of different ways of doing it.
Speaker 1: And the bottom line is adoption is a wonderful thing,
Speaker 1: but you have to do a version of it that
Speaker 1: works for your family. You cannot judge yourself based I think,
Speaker 1: based on the choices that you want to make. You
Speaker 1: have to do make choices that will work for you
Speaker 1: as a as a family. And um we worked with
Speaker 1: a private lawyer UM in Los Angeles who we had
Speaker 1: been referred to by many people who had used him.
Speaker 1: And we used a public, you know, nonprofit social services
Speaker 1: agency called called Vista del Mar, which I'm a huge
Speaker 1: I'm on the board of now, but i wasn't at
Speaker 1: the time. And in conjunction, the two things in conjunction
Speaker 1: with each other was like a perfect mix because the
Speaker 1: resources we got from the family services agency, which was
Speaker 1: a social work at it to us a parenting class
Speaker 1: that we joined, which is a hilarious story and it
Speaker 1: was so funny because all right, well and that alongside
Speaker 1: with someone who you're paying to basically do the outreach
Speaker 1: to try to match you with a birth mom. Those
Speaker 1: two things in concert with each other. And at California
Speaker 1: birth which is a state that allows two men to
Speaker 1: adopt jointly at the same time, because in other states
Speaker 1: one parent has to adopt and then a year later
Speaker 1: the other one can legally be put on. But we
Speaker 1: for many reasons, we wanted the adoption and we wanted
Speaker 1: the birth to happen in Los Angeles, and this was
Speaker 1: a lawyer that was going to facilitate that. But this
Speaker 1: is Delmar was an amazing organization that allowed not only
Speaker 1: social services and a social worker to talk to us,
Speaker 1: but gave that birth mom a resource that she normally
Speaker 1: would never have. And I can't talk more highly about
Speaker 1: the experience of adopting when you're doing open adoption where
Speaker 1: you're gonna meet a birth mom before the baby's born, right,
Speaker 1: So just explain quickly like open adoption is like you're
Speaker 1: involved with them, you know the mom you are chosen,
Speaker 1: and then afterwards you can even stay open as far
Speaker 1: as communication. It's completely it is a decision you all
Speaker 1: make together as as a team, and open adoption is
Speaker 1: one and it's called open because you know who the
Speaker 1: birth mother is, she knows who you are. You have
Speaker 1: an open line of communication, and the decision to place
Speaker 1: that child with you is as decision made by her,
Speaker 1: whereas many people have this idea of adoption of walking
Speaker 1: into an orphanage and pointing to the baby that you
Speaker 1: want and being and carrying it away, which is a
Speaker 1: very hap it's not how it happened. And so a
Speaker 1: closed adoption would be the files are closed. The files
Speaker 1: are closed, like you're told your baby is born and
Speaker 1: it's all through like legal or birth mother does not
Speaker 1: really want any more ties for emotional reasons. She's like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to place this child. I don't want them
Speaker 1: to know I want I don't want them to contact me.
Speaker 1: This is a decision I want to make. I know
Speaker 1: they're going to be in better hands, but I don't
Speaker 1: want to be contacted. And that's just a personal, emotional decision.
Speaker 1: And so close adoption is one where you are given
Speaker 1: access to a new baby and that information is sealed.
Speaker 1: So take me through the process of your adoption, Like, um,
Speaker 1: how long was it? What was the process? Like you
Speaker 1: I'm sure going to fill out the most paperwork ever,
Speaker 1: like we had to fill out. I mean, here's the
Speaker 1: most ironic thing, which is when you're not when you
Speaker 1: have a child biologically, you don't need to be fingerprinted,
Speaker 1: you don't need a background check, No one does a
Speaker 1: home study. You could literally be living in a nest
Speaker 1: with a giant ostrich and no access to child proofing
Speaker 1: at all anywhere, and no outlets to even put child
Speaker 1: proofing on in your giant kness. You're allowed to do so,
Speaker 1: and you're allowed to do so because you you adopt
Speaker 1: the child. You are literally three visits from social workers,
Speaker 1: absolute checking to make sure and then background checks, fingerprintings,
Speaker 1: and they know yes, but that's they don't really base
Speaker 1: adoption on that as much as well your ability to
Speaker 1: care for the child for sure. But they they really
Speaker 1: screen you, you really and you start to think about
Speaker 1: it and you think, well, I think every parent and
Speaker 1: is it like boy or girl or no. But but
Speaker 1: you do make decisions. You make decisions where you're like,
Speaker 1: all right, we're both white men. It's gonna be enough.
Speaker 1: This is the way we thought it will be a
Speaker 1: challenge enough for this child to grow up without a
Speaker 1: mom and with two dads. That on top of that,
Speaker 1: for them to not look like either one of us
Speaker 1: and to feel like an outside or even in how
Speaker 1: they look or feel or what the culture that they
Speaker 1: grew up in or whatever their ethnic ties are, wasn't
Speaker 1: something that we were comfortable with, and we felt like
Speaker 1: to stack the deck in their favor. We would make
Speaker 1: the only obstacle for them as to live with the
Speaker 1: idea that they are coming from the same set up,
Speaker 1: same sex couple. Now, I have family from Argentina and
Speaker 1: I speak Spanish, and so I was really open to,
Speaker 1: you know, raising a Latin American kid. We tried everything
Speaker 1: to be able to adopt a Latin American kid, and
Speaker 1: then it was it's very closed for religious reason reasons.
Speaker 1: The gay community is not open. It's very rare for
Speaker 1: a Latin American so far birth mother to choose. To guys,
Speaker 1: what's the most common is sort of what happened to us,
Speaker 1: which is a single mom, take me to that process.
Speaker 1: What happened? Yeah, Basically, you know, when you talk to
Speaker 1: a lawyer, what most of the resources that you give
Speaker 1: to a lawyer in addition to his fee, is he
Speaker 1: spends money for outreach to allow people in this country
Speaker 1: to know if they are pregnant and do not want
Speaker 1: to carry the baby, but they don't want to choose termination,
Speaker 1: that there's another way. And so he you know, advertises
Speaker 1: in yellow pages and line they make no. This is
Speaker 1: an attorney that makes it very very easy for someone
Speaker 1: to try to be able to make that choice. And
Speaker 1: what he does is he takes all the people on
Speaker 1: his list, all the prospective parents, straight, gay, single marriage,
Speaker 1: all the types, and he will give each birth mother
Speaker 1: three choices. And what we have to present is a
Speaker 1: birth mother letter, just one letter is which it's a brochure,
Speaker 1: so a whole packet to the life that just so
Speaker 1: you know, this was fifteen years ago. So know that
Speaker 1: now most of the stuff is digital, although there are
Speaker 1: there are people who still to the stay feel like
Speaker 1: you you know, you make no better impression than if
Speaker 1: then real photographs. That to just some you know, digital
Speaker 1: is so easy and so quick, and so that in
Speaker 1: a way anything to give, anything, to give yourself up
Speaker 1: to FedEx them and envelope with a letter that makes
Speaker 1: reference to what your phone call with them was about.
Speaker 1: Believe it, you get you get trained in all of this,
Speaker 1: You get told to this whole process taking guys from
Speaker 1: like the conversations to having adopting a child to win
Speaker 1: she I mean when she was we had one false alarm,
Speaker 1: which is all detailed in my book, not to make
Speaker 1: people go out and get it, but there's a very
Speaker 1: detailed story about the first birth mother we were involved
Speaker 1: with and what and how that went down a path
Speaker 1: that didn't feel comfortable for us, so we ended it.
Speaker 1: And then on our birthday September, the year before my
Speaker 1: daughter was born, so two thousand four, we got a
Speaker 1: phone call from a birth mom and it was set
Speaker 1: up by the lawyer. He's like, she's going to call
Speaker 1: you at this time, and she did, and we were
Speaker 1: both on different extensions and we had a long conversation.
Speaker 1: And then from that September, by March, she was already
Speaker 1: three months pregnant. By by March, we were in the
Speaker 1: delivery room with her. So she picked us pretty quickly,
Speaker 1: and she told us that she chose us because she
Speaker 1: was a fan of the show Queer Eye for the
Speaker 1: Straight Guy. So to this day, every time I run
Speaker 1: into David Collins, who created that show, I'm like, he goes,
Speaker 1: I know, I know you have me to thank for
Speaker 1: your family, because I say to him every time, but
Speaker 1: I always get tiery when I see him. Wow. What
Speaker 1: was in your brochure? We have ours was um, let's see,
Speaker 1: it was like six pages, and we showed lots of
Speaker 1: photographs us with our dogs, us traveling, us at home.
Speaker 1: We described what each of us liked to do. We exaggerated.
Speaker 1: Don may have lied about how much she exercises or
Speaker 1: goes outside. Maybe at the time we did. I may
Speaker 1: have oversold how much tennis I play, um, but for
Speaker 1: all small things. And neither one of us are very religious,
Speaker 1: but both of us consider ourselves fairly spiritual people. So
Speaker 1: we mentioned that because we certainly didn't want to close
Speaker 1: ourselves off to someone who was looking for a religious family,
Speaker 1: except that we were clearly not a very religious family,
Speaker 1: So if that's what you're looking for, it wasn't going
Speaker 1: to be us. So we we tried to give a
Speaker 1: full picture of who we were as a couple and
Speaker 1: what kind end of home we were hoping to create
Speaker 1: for a family and UM. And the other thing we did,
Speaker 1: which was something that had been told to us. It's
Speaker 1: is really important is you take copious notes when you're
Speaker 1: on the phone with the birth mom, and you ask
Speaker 1: them as many questions as possible about them and their interests.
Speaker 1: One of the things you don't want to do is
Speaker 1: make someone feel like you hold the key to our
Speaker 1: future as parents. So just tell me what you've been eating,
Speaker 1: tell me how much you smoke, tell me if you drank,
Speaker 1: tell me, like if they feel like they're on trial.
Speaker 1: It's not a great way to start that relationship. And again,
Speaker 1: and the truth is that baby isn't yours until it's
Speaker 1: in your arms and a waiver has been signed. So
Speaker 1: the tense part of it, you can't tell her or
Speaker 1: judge her. However, the pregnancy you can have as many
Speaker 1: thoughts as you want during the process. Our birth mom
Speaker 1: smoked a back a day the whole time, and she
Speaker 1: kept promising me that she would quit the minute the
Speaker 1: baby was born. And she didn't seem to understand that
Speaker 1: I didn't want her to quit for her sake. I
Speaker 1: want her to quit for my baby's sake. Did an
Speaker 1: intensive screening process of them, of the when you're filling
Speaker 1: out all the paperwork that you are one of these
Speaker 1: couple that is going to be shouted from the rooftop.
Speaker 1: As I said, before, you have to do a bunch
Speaker 1: of Uh, you have to do screening, visit steer house, Uh,
Speaker 1: fingerprinting and then fingerprints. Oh yeah, I wasn't kidding a
Speaker 1: background check. You can't sign up and have a you know,
Speaker 1: I mean maybe you can get a lawyer to help
Speaker 1: you find a baby, but not just makes sense. You
Speaker 1: don't want something to be like And also just also
Speaker 1: to spell another myth is that this this is not
Speaker 1: baby buying. That's illegal in this entire country. You never
Speaker 1: pay a fee to a birth mom to give you
Speaker 1: a baby. You pay her medical expenses and they and
Speaker 1: what usually happens is you put money in escrow with
Speaker 1: the attorney and the birth mom has to submit her
Speaker 1: bills to the attorney and they get paid out of
Speaker 1: that escrow account. But they have to be pregnancy related.
Speaker 1: And why that is it's very very smart because if
Speaker 1: at any point in the future she could prove to
Speaker 1: a judge that there had been money exchanged just for
Speaker 1: the exchange of the baby, she could claim that she
Speaker 1: was coerced. So everything has to be documented. And it's
Speaker 1: it really is this unbelievably touching moment when you're chosen
Speaker 1: by someone else to be entrusted to become the parent
Speaker 1: of their of their unborn baby, and it's a decision
Speaker 1: that they don't really actually sign off on until after
Speaker 1: the baby has been born. So you're really very tense
Speaker 1: until until that's finished. Because you hear these stories about
Speaker 1: moms saying not signing or your stories, and they don't
Speaker 1: they change their mind, say I changed my mind. It
Speaker 1: is one of the list. So how did you prepare
Speaker 1: to welcome Eliza? Like emotionally psychologically, how did you? I
Speaker 1: mean it sounds like you were like cautiously optimistic because
Speaker 1: you were in the similar ways that any conventional couple
Speaker 1: that where the mom is expecting a baby is you know,
Speaker 1: you know your you know your first three months, or
Speaker 1: you don't want to tell anybody because you're like, what
Speaker 1: if something happens, so you don't tell anybody. Well, in
Speaker 1: many ways, we we have that for nine months, although
Speaker 1: we found out a three months, so we had that
Speaker 1: for six months. There were so many ways where we
Speaker 1: were like, why are we going to paint an entire
Speaker 1: room and get ourselves this ready and make the birth
Speaker 1: mom feel like she really the only reason we value
Speaker 1: her or care about her is because of this thing.
Speaker 1: She's going to give us. We downplay it because, as
Speaker 1: I said in my book and I say all the time,
Speaker 1: this is one of those rare transactions where the happiest
Speaker 1: day of your life quite possibly could be the saddest
Speaker 1: day in a in a woman's life, and you can't
Speaker 1: not look at that, you can't not be sensitive to that.
Speaker 1: It's like this very strange passing over of caring for
Speaker 1: this woman, this young she was in our birth mom
Speaker 1: was nineteen at the time, so we have a very
Speaker 1: paternal relationship towards her, and you're caring for her and
Speaker 1: wanting her to emotionally trust you. You take me through
Speaker 1: and you got the call that like she was in labor.
Speaker 1: And as I said before, one of the reasons we
Speaker 1: wanted to have this baby in California is because it's
Speaker 1: California is a state where the fact that the baby
Speaker 1: is born in a hospital in l a allowed both
Speaker 1: of us to be in the delivery room and allowed
Speaker 1: us both to be on the birth certificate. When when when,
Speaker 1: which was an amazing thing for us. So you were
Speaker 1: fair when she came out, Yes, as was my friend Mary.
Speaker 1: Feel it was unbelievable. It was unbelievable. I mean, to
Speaker 1: be in that room and to have that baby. And
Speaker 1: I was petrified by the way you were going to
Speaker 1: faith at the site up to a day before, like
Speaker 1: this is don, Don is so not He didn't look.
Speaker 1: He didn't did he say to section hen And there's
Speaker 1: a mirror of the ceiling. Oh my god, you cannot
Speaker 1: look up. So he just kept his eyes down. I
Speaker 1: cut the umbilical quarter or he would have passed out.
Speaker 1: And and as soon as she was I think, was
Speaker 1: it an appointment, like she had a state scheduled. Yes,
Speaker 1: except that with on my first with Eliza, what happens
Speaker 1: is in the last three weeks of the pregnancy, the
Speaker 1: birth mom comes to Los Angeles at least this is
Speaker 1: the way we did it, and she stays in l A.
Speaker 1: We put her up somewhere and she was here with
Speaker 1: her two twins who are a year and a half old.
Speaker 1: And we were very much involved in taking care of
Speaker 1: her and her one and a half year old twins
Speaker 1: in preparation for he gave birth. So every visit to
Speaker 1: the O b g y N we did together. Um,
Speaker 1: every cigarette break in between those O b g y
Speaker 1: N segments, we were out there with her. We did together,
Speaker 1: nothing like being on the streets of Beverly Hills with
Speaker 1: a nine month pregnant woman chugging up just ripping smokes
Speaker 1: and looks on the on the on the faces of
Speaker 1: the people walking by were fascinating and she loved every minute. Um.
Speaker 1: But what happened was we were going to the grove.
Speaker 1: I was spending the morning with the twins and her,
Speaker 1: and we went to the grove and we had a
Speaker 1: smoothie and she after the smoothie, she absolutely sore. To me,
Speaker 1: she was going into labor. She was like having unbelievable contractions,
Speaker 1: or so she thought. And so it was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, code red and I threw her in the
Speaker 1: car and I was like driving to the hospital and um,
Speaker 1: it's happening. It's happening. And we were looking for someone
Speaker 1: to watch her twins while we were going to the hospital.
Speaker 1: Like we were not prepared because the plan was a
Speaker 1: scheduled sea for a week later from that, her mother
Speaker 1: had a ticket to come to Los Angeles to meet us.
Speaker 1: That she would have her mom and also help with
Speaker 1: her because it's emotional, and she would fly and she
Speaker 1: would stay for a week and then fly back to
Speaker 1: Wisconsin with her, and all that was in the planned.
Speaker 1: We did not plan for one week early. And so
Speaker 1: there we were in the hospital and we called her
Speaker 1: O B G y N and he was like, we
Speaker 1: have to wait for that smoothie to pass through her,
Speaker 1: so we can't do this until tonight. But you know
Speaker 1: and I don't. But we out came a laza a
Speaker 1: week early, and we were not prepared for that, and
Speaker 1: I was in the middle of shooting a pilot and
Speaker 1: so I had to take a couple of days. Like
Speaker 1: you had said, was the nursery So like you guys
Speaker 1: weren't really prepared at home because they were being cautiously
Speaker 1: optimistic because and the nursery wasn't painted, There wasn't like cribs.
Speaker 1: And she showed up for the last month. She was like,
Speaker 1: are you guys insane? Do you guys not understand what
Speaker 1: you need to do? You have a baby coming, where's
Speaker 1: the crib? How come you even painted the baby's room?
Speaker 1: And we realized that it would help her to know
Speaker 1: that you have done some preparation, so very quickly with
Speaker 1: her we kind of got that baby's room ready enough.
Speaker 1: But we were doing to protect ourselves from potential, like
Speaker 1: we just didn't want to go too far. And everybody
Speaker 1: the first child she gave up for adoption or was
Speaker 1: their siblings placed for adoption, we don't say gave up anymore?
Speaker 1: Thank you? Very true that that's something that not that,
Speaker 1: but it's not a very it's negative. It's a negative.
Speaker 1: We get yeah, everyone says that, but really making make
Speaker 1: an adoption plan is what people prefer. People say, but
Speaker 1: placed made an adoption choice. So those are all the
Speaker 1: PC ways of saying it, and it's way better. But
Speaker 1: the gave up thing put stigma on the birth mom
Speaker 1: and again I said it for years ago, and also
Speaker 1: the kid, like my mom gave me up for adopt
Speaker 1: it's just like not said anymore. So it's a good
Speaker 1: thing to know even that people are using that terminology. Now,
Speaker 1: did you ever feel at the beginning like oh shit,
Speaker 1: what did we do? Yes? I felt that way. So
Speaker 1: that's similar to when I BIRB Like I was like,
Speaker 1: I was like, what have we done? Done? In shock?
Speaker 1: Because I feel like, I mean, this is a no district.
Speaker 1: I just feel like you're sort of more maternal is
Speaker 1: definitely mommy, like, you're more maternal you're the crier. You're
Speaker 1: like the You're very like emotionally available. Your milk coms
Speaker 1: in a little bit like his Di Cooke shows up,
Speaker 1: but my milk comes in for sure. In fact, I'm
Speaker 1: just talking about it. I feel like a little bit,
Speaker 1: but no, I'm definitely more maternal. I was definitely more
Speaker 1: panicked up until like, I think we've made a big mistake,
Speaker 1: like this is not gonna we can't do this, we
Speaker 1: absolutely can't do this. And then the minute allizes was
Speaker 1: put in my arms, I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: you and and lucky for me, but sadly for him.
Speaker 1: Don was very much in taking care of birth mom
Speaker 1: mode for the next forty eight hours after the baby
Speaker 1: was born, very aware that he did not want her
Speaker 1: to feel like, okay, thanks by when she signs that waiver,
Speaker 1: are you for the release? Like that that makes the
Speaker 1: whole thing final, like the moment of the actual signing.
Speaker 1: The one thing that we talked to a social worker
Speaker 1: about with her, which was really smart, was something that
Speaker 1: not everyone does. But it's called an entrustment ceremony, and
Speaker 1: you have to you have to just be the kind
Speaker 1: of person that you have to ask the birth mom,
Speaker 1: if that's something that they would like, and it has
Speaker 1: to be something that you would And we talked to
Speaker 1: her about what would you like to do in an
Speaker 1: entrustment ceremony, and she talked about candles, and she talked
Speaker 1: about handing the baby too. Oh, Danny, I love you. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I haven't put about this, I haven't thought about this
Speaker 1: and so long. Oh my god. Okay, she held in
Speaker 1: the hospital. We were still in the hospital, and I
Speaker 1: think a few other people were there, and we stood there.
Speaker 1: Dan is crying. We're having an emotional moment. My kid
Speaker 1: is just screaming in the other room as you can
Speaker 1: hear him. And obviously it's so much duty right now.
Speaker 1: Is we're having a very emotional experience here. I had
Speaker 1: not thought about so long, and that maybe an entrustment ceremony.
Speaker 1: And she paid together and she in her own way,
Speaker 1: she wanted each of us to hold the candle, and
Speaker 1: then each of us to hold Eliza. And it was
Speaker 1: a moment where she was saying, I want this is
Speaker 1: my moment to hand the baby over to you guys.
Speaker 1: And we did that in the hospital and then Eliza pooped.
Speaker 1: We'll never forget it. We all joke about it now,
Speaker 1: let loose. Um. I don't remember doing one for Jonah
Speaker 1: because the circumstances were different. Explain, this is your second,
Speaker 1: this is biological brother. Correct. So two years later, our
Speaker 1: birth mom got pregnant again, and we had already told
Speaker 1: our adoption lawyer that we wanted to maybe have a
Speaker 1: second and we talked about that a lot. That both
Speaker 1: Don and I had siblings, Both of us had sisters
Speaker 1: and that were very close to us, and we felt
Speaker 1: that whether or not, even though we felt very complete
Speaker 1: as a threesome with our baby, we felt like, for
Speaker 1: the good of our kid, they will really benefit from
Speaker 1: having a sibling. And oh my god, is that not
Speaker 1: true of my two kids? I just can't imagine them not.
Speaker 1: I can not imagine them without each other. Like it's now,
Speaker 1: it's Unfathomi, does Jonah have the same mom and dad?
Speaker 1: As it turns out? So turns out. So you got
Speaker 1: a call from your adoption agent. We called the lawyers
Speaker 1: and we're like, we want, we want to be put
Speaker 1: on the list. And he said, just so you know,
Speaker 1: it's a tough market. It was sort of like what
Speaker 1: my talent agent was telling me at the same time.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be tough to get a job, right now,
Speaker 1: is it? You mean it's tougher to get another Wait,
Speaker 1: if you've adopted one child, does that better or lesson
Speaker 1: your chances of getting another one? You're lower on the list.
Speaker 1: A lot of birth moms like to feel like there's
Speaker 1: two things that we learned about birth moms. One thing
Speaker 1: to learn about birth moms is that many times gay
Speaker 1: gay mail couples are second in demand after straight couples.
Speaker 1: Many times, because a single birth mom likes to feel
Speaker 1: forever like you was the only mother. It is harder
Speaker 1: for some, not all, but the number of moms to
Speaker 1: want to see another woman. But that's not for all. Still,
Speaker 1: the number one is like a conventional straight couple, but
Speaker 1: second is a gay couple because it's a very common phenomenon.
Speaker 1: It certainly was true with us, so then she but
Speaker 1: some dr parents would be like, no, I want my
Speaker 1: kid to feel specially only one and not compete. And
Speaker 1: many wants to be the one to give the first
Speaker 1: child to a family that hasn't had a baby, so too.
Speaker 1: So he tells you it's going to take longer. But
Speaker 1: around that time we were on the list and we
Speaker 1: were getting zero calls like not even prospective. How old
Speaker 1: was Eliza at this point too? And we Eliza had
Speaker 1: a heart issue that had to be fixed, so we
Speaker 1: had a reparation to a heart surgery and she had
Speaker 1: a heart surgery earlier in that year. It was a
Speaker 1: tough two thousand and six seven where it was an
Speaker 1: incredibly difficult year. Again, I talked a lot in detail
Speaker 1: about that and my god, it's fine, Thank God, she's fine.
Speaker 1: It was tough to go through. My father was terminally
Speaker 1: ill at the same time, and we knew that we
Speaker 1: were having another child, Like it was a very intense
Speaker 1: tells us. And that's how we got through it now
Speaker 1: that I think about it. But right around that time,
Speaker 1: we had heard that our birth mom was pregnant, and
Speaker 1: both Done and I looked at each other were like,
Speaker 1: it's only a matter of weeks before we get a
Speaker 1: call we thought she did and those like once the entrustment, yes,
Speaker 1: we we skipped this, let's go back to that. In
Speaker 1: the first year. We did another thing, which is the
Speaker 1: reason why we worked with an agency like like this
Speaker 1: to del Mar Family Services is one of the things
Speaker 1: they help you with is what's called if it's called
Speaker 1: a something agreement I can't remember. Let's let's say it's
Speaker 1: called the visitation agreement. It's not really called that, it's
Speaker 1: it's contact agreement, and it has to do with what
Speaker 1: you're agreeing to. It's not legally binding, but it is
Speaker 1: an agreement made amongst the three of you as to
Speaker 1: what your first choice would be as to how much
Speaker 1: contact you're going to have with that child after the
Speaker 1: baby is born, and before the baby is born, yes,
Speaker 1: and the birth mom goes in in private and makes
Speaker 1: a draft of what she wants, and then we separately
Speaker 1: make a draft of what we want, and we see
Speaker 1: how close they are. Afterwards, we don't want to do
Speaker 1: it in They never want them done in front of
Speaker 1: each because you don't want to impact each other, and
Speaker 1: you compromise, and we came up with an agreement that
Speaker 1: had to do with a once a year visit until
Speaker 1: Eliza was three, and then after that not until the
Speaker 1: child was old enough to ask for another one. So
Speaker 1: it could have been until ted. So once a year
Speaker 1: she we flew her to Los Angeles and we spend
Speaker 1: time together, and again there wasn't a lot of bonding
Speaker 1: with there was never really it was hard because it
Speaker 1: was always a concern just not that that not that
Speaker 1: anything would happen. There was no legal risk, but it
Speaker 1: just was a very stressful time. It's emotional and stressful,
Speaker 1: and it's you're reminded of all of it and and
Speaker 1: and it's a wonderful thing, and it's also kind of
Speaker 1: a sign thing. So it was very hard and we
Speaker 1: had three of those visits. Ironically, by the third visit,
Speaker 1: there was a second pregnancy happening and we were going
Speaker 1: to adopt the brother, so, but she was married to
Speaker 1: someone at the time, and so that man had to
Speaker 1: also sign away his rights as the presumed father. There
Speaker 1: is something called an alleged father, and there's something called
Speaker 1: the presumed father. The presumed father is anyone married to
Speaker 1: the birth mother. Alleged father is anyone else who could
Speaker 1: potentially be the father. And in a legal adoption, you
Speaker 1: need to get assigned release from the presumed father and
Speaker 1: any alleged father's So, as it turns out, so the
Speaker 1: presumed father was this guy was her husband, and he
Speaker 1: was there with us, and they made the choice together,
Speaker 1: and it was a little bit more complicated because it
Speaker 1: was more people involved. We presumed right through the time
Speaker 1: that they left Los Angeles that her husband was the father.
Speaker 1: But deep in our souls knew we did not feel
Speaker 1: because that was not Eliza's dad. That was it was
Speaker 1: So did you do like a fraternity test? So when
Speaker 1: they had left, I DNA tested the kids and found
Speaker 1: out that they were full siblings. WHOA. So when you
Speaker 1: when Jonah was born, you didn't know that he and
Speaker 1: Eliza had the same thought. It was a feeling we had,
Speaker 1: but but it wasn't we did not. Now take me
Speaker 1: through how you have discussed adoption with Eliza and Jonah.
Speaker 1: I love this, like now that they're old enough to
Speaker 1: really they understand. I mean they're thirteen and ten. And
Speaker 1: how was it the same agreement that she came out
Speaker 1: once a year for the first three years of Jada's
Speaker 1: life we went to we did two years. Is that
Speaker 1: way Eliza would be five and Jonah would be three,
Speaker 1: So we went we went two more years in that
Speaker 1: in that contact agreement and m and then after that
Speaker 1: we didn't we there were no visits after unless the
Speaker 1: kids ask for them. Is when you are going to
Speaker 1: entertain the idea? Correct? And no at ten Eliza's not thirteen.
Speaker 1: At ten Eliza did ask about when she was ever
Speaker 1: going to see her birth mom again, and we were
Speaker 1: always taught. We always always always told the story. I'm
Speaker 1: just remembering this now. We always, even before she could speak,
Speaker 1: we would tell the story of how um of how
Speaker 1: she came to be you and don like agree what
Speaker 1: that was or did you come up with it kind
Speaker 1: of then and there and it felt right, or we
Speaker 1: told the story and I'm I'm embarrassed to say now
Speaker 1: that I can't remember the way we told it. We
Speaker 1: told like a little fairy tale that there were two
Speaker 1: guys who know it was too. Poppy and Daddy love
Speaker 1: and we really really love Dan is daddy and is Poppy.
Speaker 1: I know this because I hang out at your house.
Speaker 1: That is that's that's Poppy and Daddy and we love
Speaker 1: each other very very, very very much. But there's only
Speaker 1: one thing in the world that we didn't have. It.
Speaker 1: We wanted more than anything in the world than that
Speaker 1: was a little baby guy. And then we met someone
Speaker 1: and wed. We told the story of how she loved
Speaker 1: her baby so much, but but and we wanted to
Speaker 1: find the perfect perfect She knew that this baby was
Speaker 1: meant for these two guys, and she chose them, and
Speaker 1: it really is true. It's a decision made by three people.
Speaker 1: It's not one made by one or by two, you know.
Speaker 1: And we would tell the story of how she came
Speaker 1: to be, and we told that over and over and
Speaker 1: over and over and over again, and we were very
Speaker 1: open about the adoption, but didn't really say it that much.
Speaker 1: We didn't say the word adoption for a really long time.
Speaker 1: And I wrote it. I wrote it. I don't remember
Speaker 1: when it was, but I wrote a piece about the
Speaker 1: A word. I think it's called the A word. And
Speaker 1: it's just felt uncomfortable to you, weird, weird to I
Speaker 1: had this weird feeling about not wanting to say the word,
Speaker 1: and it was so important to say the word. There
Speaker 1: was nothing wrong with that word. It's old baggage that
Speaker 1: that those of us. There's old jokes that people used
Speaker 1: to like gave up for adoption, Like it does sound
Speaker 1: like negative in the way we are, like in the
Speaker 1: old school way of thinking about adoption, or like the
Speaker 1: ways kids used to teach each other in the schoolyard.
Speaker 1: Can I have something? Um, we'd be like, yeah, tell
Speaker 1: me he's adopted, Like that would be a way of
Speaker 1: teasing something. Well, you know that's not the way people
Speaker 1: teach each other anymore, nor would it fly because how
Speaker 1: great you're adopted. Like, we're in a different world now,
Speaker 1: certainly where my kids are. Um so so embracing the
Speaker 1: word and starting to use it more in the house. Oh,
Speaker 1: I remember what happened. We were walking by a pet
Speaker 1: adoption day at a park and we're like, that word
Speaker 1: means something, and we have to talk about what that
Speaker 1: word means. Our family is going to adopt a bait,
Speaker 1: a dog or a puppy. We need to talk about
Speaker 1: what that word means and bring something into your family
Speaker 1: and how is it different your adoption with a child
Speaker 1: and with adoption of a pet. And we had to
Speaker 1: start using the word and we and we did. But
Speaker 1: it really wasn't until Eliza turned ten that she asked
Speaker 1: very casually if she when she was going to see
Speaker 1: her birth mom again. And at that point I said
Speaker 1: to Donnego, I think we need to plan a trip
Speaker 1: to Wisconsin. And we two and a half years ago
Speaker 1: we flew to Wisconsin and it was the first time
Speaker 1: we even really had the kids learn from the mouths
Speaker 1: of their full siblings because the existing twins are also
Speaker 1: full siblings, and they called We never used to refer
Speaker 1: to those two kids, and we referred to them by
Speaker 1: name all the time with our kids, but we never
Speaker 1: referred to them as a brother or sister because to us,
Speaker 1: your brother is your brother, the one that lives in
Speaker 1: a house. We didn't want to use the same term.
Speaker 1: So but the minute we arrived in Wisconsin, there was
Speaker 1: a bonding of these four kids that you really cannot
Speaker 1: you cannot deny, instantaneous and it was lovely. And I
Speaker 1: remember driving through this court you feel scared, like when
Speaker 1: they were going to see her again? Did did Eliza
Speaker 1: or Jonah feel like? Were they excited? Were they nervous?
Speaker 1: I mean to get on a plane and like, we're
Speaker 1: gonna bet our birth mom. Was it like a thing?
Speaker 1: You know? I don't. They didn't talk about it. They
Speaker 1: were excited to to go visit. And when they got there,
Speaker 1: they were all about their siblings. And now they still
Speaker 1: talk about them more than they do about the birth mom.
Speaker 1: But they were excited to see her. They were excited
Speaker 1: to connect again. Um and now we do every two years.
Speaker 1: Now we just go we we just take a family
Speaker 1: trip every two years. You go. We've done it twice.
Speaker 1: We've done but every other year now lately, and so
Speaker 1: we did it last year and then we would probably
Speaker 1: go again next year. Um to do a quick thirty
Speaker 1: six hour trip to Wisconsin amazing and see the whole family.
Speaker 1: Are there any resources that you recommend for people that
Speaker 1: are interested? I mean, besides Does This Baby Make Me
Speaker 1: Look Straight? Which is an incredible book by Dan Bukatinski
Speaker 1: so much um it sounds like this vista and looking
Speaker 1: for other foster foster adopt and adoption. Now, there are
Speaker 1: a lot of adoption websites online and I do look
Speaker 1: forward to I do recommend people uh checking checking them
Speaker 1: out just for even just for information and in a
Speaker 1: more emotional mental way. Is there any advice you would
Speaker 1: give to someone who's considering adoption? Good luck? Well, certainly
Speaker 1: good luck, but but certainly the biggest piece of advice
Speaker 1: I would give anybody. And I always talk about this
Speaker 1: and I wrote a lot about this too. I think
Speaker 1: people do not choose adoption often because of this, of
Speaker 1: this disconnect. They feel that it's not going to feel
Speaker 1: like mine, They won't feel like there is a desire
Speaker 1: to have your baby genetically yours because it will feel different.
Speaker 1: And I absolutely felt that way. I absolutely felt like
Speaker 1: that would be the case until my baby, until my
Speaker 1: daughter was in my arms, and I can't quite imagine
Speaker 1: feeling more tied to my child. So I do encourage
Speaker 1: people to certainly talk about that feeling with anybody. Don't
Speaker 1: pretend you don't have it, and don't be afraid to
Speaker 1: say anything that is what you're feeling or fearing, because
Speaker 1: those are real feelings and you can't deny them if
Speaker 1: you do only want to a a daughter, like we were
Speaker 1: hoping would have a daughter first, and we were lucky
Speaker 1: that we had a daughter first, or we were hoping that.
Speaker 1: You know, whatever your feelings are, they you're creating a
Speaker 1: family that's forever, so you have to be honest with yourself.
Speaker 1: I was very concerned about, like what it would feel like, Well,
Speaker 1: I feel like she's mine. I feel like the baby
Speaker 1: not smell like me. Well, I mean I've actually heard
Speaker 1: that before. I was like, you realize that your kids
Speaker 1: smell like you because of the home that they live
Speaker 1: and exactly, But like it was just but it's really
Speaker 1: more code I think for people feeling like well, I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm holding someone else's baby. Absolutely not right.
Speaker 1: Is there something you wish you would have known before
Speaker 1: you made the decision? Um, oh gosh, everything. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a lot about the experience that you can't quite prepare for.
Speaker 1: Part of it is if you're doing an open adoption,
Speaker 1: is in fact the yes, I mean, here's the thing
Speaker 1: is just basically over preparing for something you cannot prepare for.
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Have you said that before? I don't
Speaker 1: think that that is exactly right. You are over preparing
Speaker 1: for something you cannot possibly prepare for. Can you prepare
Speaker 1: in the sense like you read a lot of parenting, researching,
Speaker 1: assessing your feelings, you're trying to talk about it, you're talking,
Speaker 1: you're reading books, and then, yess what, it never goes
Speaker 1: the way you think. It's always different and better and
Speaker 1: more challenging. Every parent will have advice for you, and
Speaker 1: I will tell you this, and this is absolutely true.
Speaker 1: Every parent will will claim that their way is the
Speaker 1: right way because they're invested in their way, because it's
Speaker 1: the way they're raising their kids. And nobody wants to
Speaker 1: say to you, I am raising my kids wrong. So
Speaker 1: in a way of affirming their own choices as parents,
Speaker 1: it's important to them that you do what they do.
Speaker 1: And what you have to realize is your way is
Speaker 1: your way, and you have to do a way that
Speaker 1: works for you and read lots of different books and
Speaker 1: you pick and choose what works. From this also that
Speaker 1: something might work one day and then it doesn't work.
Speaker 1: The epist fucking it's fucking crazy because you watch someone
Speaker 1: else and you're like, that's the kind of parent I
Speaker 1: want to be, and then you see them actually have
Speaker 1: a nervous breakdown in front of you, and you're like, well,
Speaker 1: that clearly doesn't necessarily work for everybody. You have to
Speaker 1: do what works. But the biggest thing I wish I
Speaker 1: had done is talk about what kind of parents each
Speaker 1: of us want to be with each other before we
Speaker 1: became parents. I will never The only thing I can
Speaker 1: tell you that I wish I had done more is
Speaker 1: talked with my spouse about what our philosophies are, because
Speaker 1: we only learned after we had our kids how absolutely
Speaker 1: different we are, and a lot of people could relate
Speaker 1: to that. And I think that finding that place of
Speaker 1: compromise of how you want to approach the whole thing
Speaker 1: is a good thing to do before the babies come
Speaker 1: out because I'm still doing it. My kids a routeen
Speaker 1: and eleven. Hey, at that time, they're still in your root,
Speaker 1: so what at least eighteen in this day and age,
Speaker 1: probably longer. But it's tough, my friends. But it was
Speaker 1: very It's very rewarding, and it's the hardest, most rewarding
Speaker 1: thing you'll ever do in your life, is what I'm feeling.
Speaker 1: And I'm only one fucking year in Dan You are
Speaker 1: you are? You are an incredible daddy. I have seen
Speaker 1: you tell them that, and Don is an incredible poppy.
Speaker 1: Well now they're not supposed to realize it right now,
Speaker 1: they're just supposed to hate you. You're doing the right.
Speaker 1: My kids wake up and they're like, you're the reason
Speaker 1: my life is miserable. I hear that all the time.
Speaker 1: You did it. They're preteens. Um, this is so wonderful.
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on Katie's crib and I just
Speaker 1: I have learned so much, actually, like I have, and
Speaker 1: I read your book and I just which is hilarious
Speaker 1: and brilliant, beautiful, but I've learned a ton. And thank
Speaker 1: you for thank you ing your time, thank you for
Speaker 1: having me. I love you. I love you. UM, this
Speaker 1: is so exciting you guys. We are here with David Boum,
Speaker 1: who's from the law offices of David H. Boum. Well done, sir.
Speaker 1: He's had a thirty five years of experience as an
Speaker 1: adoption attorney. UM, can you tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about yourself, what you do and how did you find
Speaker 1: your way into adoption law. Well, I've been practicing in
Speaker 1: the field of adoption for just shy a forty years.
Speaker 1: I started in in an office doing all sorts of
Speaker 1: different law, real estate law, personal injury law, and the
Speaker 1: office had clients who came to the attorney I was
Speaker 1: working with and said, can you help us with a
Speaker 1: stepparent adoption? Can you help us do this adult adoption?
Speaker 1: And he didn't want to do them, but he had
Speaker 1: a young associate in me, and I was a go
Speaker 1: getter and anxious to do anything, so I took it
Speaker 1: on in. In night nine, we adopted our child. And
Speaker 1: I had been looking at finding a practice that was
Speaker 1: a little more fulfilling because at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: in the civil practice which I had been involved in,
Speaker 1: you you did your job, you got paid, but there
Speaker 1: wasn't a huge amount of personal satisfaction and building families
Speaker 1: really seemed to fill the bill. So that's what I've
Speaker 1: been doing now for all these years, is helping build families,
Speaker 1: one step at a time. Blended families by stepparent adoption,
Speaker 1: LGBT families with second parent adoptions, single pair and adoptions.
Speaker 1: Adult adoptions. There are people who adults who adopt other adults,
Speaker 1: and then independent and agency adoptions. Helping people find newborns
Speaker 1: to adopt, screening the adopting family and the birth parents,
Speaker 1: trying to make sure the match is good, facilitating that adoption,
Speaker 1: dealing with the hospitals, the social workers, the state agencies
Speaker 1: that are involved in approving an adoption plan and an
Speaker 1: adoption placement, and then completing the adoptions and having the
Speaker 1: pleasure of going to court and finalizing those adoptions, which
Speaker 1: is the big payoff. How many do you think you've done?
Speaker 1: Oh my god. In the thousands, we used to keep
Speaker 1: books of pictures with families together, and after about six
Speaker 1: or seven volumes, mercifully, the digital age descended upon us,
Speaker 1: and so now we're able to digitize these things, and uh,
Speaker 1: but it is it's the children who I deal with
Speaker 1: always are the same age they're always newborn. And to
Speaker 1: then get a picture at the holidays from any number
Speaker 1: of my clients who send a picture of their children,
Speaker 1: and my god, these children are sixteen years old, eighteen
Speaker 1: years old years old, they're married themselves, and they have children.
Speaker 1: It's it's really you feel at the end of the
Speaker 1: day as a lawyer that you actually made a difference. Oh,
Speaker 1: you make me cry. Usually it's the Usually it's the
Speaker 1: guest that cries on Katie's cry. I mean, I cried too,
Speaker 1: But this one, this is this is a good morning.
Speaker 1: The only other thing I would say about that is
Speaker 1: that you know, at the end of the day, I
Speaker 1: approach every adoption as though it was my own, because
Speaker 1: when my wife and I went through the adoption experience,
Speaker 1: we definitely discerned things we liked and things we didn't.
Speaker 1: And we approach our clientele with this notion that you
Speaker 1: come to us for advice, and I want to give
Speaker 1: you the best advice, and I want to guide you
Speaker 1: along the way. If clients will take my advice and
Speaker 1: will follow my instructions, our success rate is about But
Speaker 1: there are clients who just sort of pay the advice
Speaker 1: lip service and they want to do it their way,
Speaker 1: and they may not have the same quality of results.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they do. I don't need to take all the
Speaker 1: credit for it, but I have to tell you that
Speaker 1: when you slog through this stuff for several months with
Speaker 1: a potential birth mom or with the placement, and then
Speaker 1: to go to court and have the judge say congratulations,
Speaker 1: it's a multi kleenex event almost every single time. And
Speaker 1: now we're gonna greg it. Okay, So what are the
Speaker 1: different means of adoption? Can you explain? I mean where
Speaker 1: we've been talking about this before, but public or private,
Speaker 1: agency and dependent open, closed, domestic international. You said you
Speaker 1: deal mostly with newborn now, but in your firm, are
Speaker 1: there people who deal like you were saying, with adult
Speaker 1: or I'm a solo practitioner. Most adoption attorneys are solo
Speaker 1: practitioners because people come to hire us because they believe
Speaker 1: we have the mojo or the expertise to do it.
Speaker 1: But let's talk about the adoptions. It's fairly simple. I
Speaker 1: don't deal with international adoption. It's a separate skill set,
Speaker 1: and people who want to go and do an international
Speaker 1: adoption owe it to themselves to do the research and
Speaker 1: find attorneys who do international adoption specifically, it's quite different.
Speaker 1: It's sort of the difference between going to a cardiologist
Speaker 1: and a dentist. They both may be doctors, but the
Speaker 1: expertise and skill sets are completely different. So in my field,
Speaker 1: we either have agency adoption where the birth mother relinquishes
Speaker 1: the baby to the agency and the agency then places
Speaker 1: the child for adoption with the adoptive family, or we
Speaker 1: have independent adoption and independent adoption the birth mother actually
Speaker 1: places a child directly with the parents and the paperwork
Speaker 1: that is signed is a little more direct. Why do
Speaker 1: people go to agency adoptions? It It isn't that the
Speaker 1: aby goes literally to the agency and then the agency
Speaker 1: takes it out of a bassineten hands it to the parents.
Speaker 1: Is that the agency will provide home study services and
Speaker 1: social services and support services all at one location, whereas
Speaker 1: an independent adoption we bring in the social worker, and
Speaker 1: we bring in the therapist or the corn the package deal.
Speaker 1: Do you find that you have huge amounts of both
Speaker 1: or do most people use an agency right now? It's
Speaker 1: it's it is really a cost driven. Independent adoption tends
Speaker 1: to be cheaper than agency adoption because the agency's charge
Speaker 1: for services which you may not need. There are some
Speaker 1: wonderful agencies out there, and they offer classes in parenting
Speaker 1: and and they offer classes and how to talk to
Speaker 1: your teenager about being adopted. And most of my clients
Speaker 1: went faced with that as a possible road to travel. Say,
Speaker 1: would you mind terribly for we got the baby first
Speaker 1: before we started talking talking about what we're supposed to
Speaker 1: del I always say to the clients, make a financial determination.
Speaker 1: If the services are essentially the same, look at what
Speaker 1: is most fiscally responsible for you, because no one wants
Speaker 1: to end up being bankrupt, right and you're about to
Speaker 1: have a baby, which is super expensive. So, like you know,
Speaker 1: it would be wonderful if some of your dough went
Speaker 1: to the baby once you got him or her. Well,
Speaker 1: it has to go to the diapers, that has to
Speaker 1: go to formula. There there are relatively few adoptive parents
Speaker 1: who actually breastfeed. There are some because there is this
Speaker 1: technique available where you can do that, but it's very rare.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, so there are there are means that a
Speaker 1: woman can contact her gynecologist and get onto some program
Speaker 1: to be able to lactate and then breastfeed a child,
Speaker 1: but most end up paying for formula and formula. Baby
Speaker 1: ain't cheap? No, um, can you hear my baby right now?
Speaker 1: It's his nap time, everybody? Albi, Adam is on My husband,
Speaker 1: Adam is on Albi duty this morning while I talk
Speaker 1: to you, and Albi is obviously not wanting to go
Speaker 1: down for his nap. So can you walk us through, like,
Speaker 1: walk us through what an adoption process looks like. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know that's very big and and sort of a
Speaker 1: large topic. That's a manageable question. People come to you first.
Speaker 1: Ideally a person is going to come to an attorney
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, adoption is a
Speaker 1: legal process. Tell me with the attorney and decide on
Speaker 1: a game plan. Are we going to try to do
Speaker 1: an independent adoption or an agency adoption? Are and what
Speaker 1: are we looking for in terms of birth parents, racial issues,
Speaker 1: employment issues, age, health, um, physical attributes, intellectual attributes. So
Speaker 1: we define what we're looking for, and most importantly, we
Speaker 1: have to define budget. What is it going to likely cost?
Speaker 1: What are the parameters that we have to work with
Speaker 1: in terms of money, because not every adoptive parent is
Speaker 1: able to spend endless amounts of money adopting, and some
Speaker 1: work on a budget, So you determine the budget, and
Speaker 1: then the next step is we make sure that the
Speaker 1: adoptive parents will be able to adopt. UH. So, if
Speaker 1: you have a past criminal record, no matter how minor
Speaker 1: it is, we need to know about it in advance
Speaker 1: so we can make sure that we can deal with
Speaker 1: it appropriately, and you understand what's involved with that. Once
Speaker 1: you find a birth mom, then we start the outreach
Speaker 1: to look for a birth mom and advertising Dear birth Mother,
Speaker 1: letters portfolio. What is that? Well, advertising, Maybe you're not
Speaker 1: going to find it here in California because it's forbidden
Speaker 1: by law to or a newspaper ads advertising to adopt
Speaker 1: a baby. But outside of the state, yes it is,
Speaker 1: so it might be an ad in the adoption section.
Speaker 1: Believe that or not in newspapers out of state, something
Speaker 1: along the lines of UH Southern California couple urins to
Speaker 1: adopt newborn. Expense is paid as permitted, legal and confidential.
Speaker 1: We promise your child a future of UH happiness, love
Speaker 1: and security. Call tanyan Bill toll free any time, or
Speaker 1: our attorney Dave at such and such number. Wow. So
Speaker 1: um so, after that, make contact with a birth mom.
Speaker 1: There's paperwork that's exchanged back and forth. Birth mom is
Speaker 1: advised by a social worker and LCSW and counseled esther
Speaker 1: her rights and evaluated to make sure license clinical social
Speaker 1: worker UH. And then if everyone's an agreement and they
Speaker 1: meet and they like one another and they want to proceed,
Speaker 1: the hospitals notified, the doctors notified. When the baby is
Speaker 1: born UH, and it's ready for discharge from the hospital,
Speaker 1: the adoptive pearance are there to receive the baby. Then
Speaker 1: the legal paperwork has begun in the court, and ultimately
Speaker 1: the Department of Children and Family Services in California or
Speaker 1: a private adoption agency will complete the post birth and
Speaker 1: post placement supervision of the case, and they have meetings
Speaker 1: and make sure everything is in order. They present a
Speaker 1: final report to the court saying we recommend that the
Speaker 1: adoption be approved, and then you have that celebratory final
Speaker 1: hearing with the judge where the judge confirms and approves
Speaker 1: the report, grants the adoption changes. The child's parents already
Speaker 1: have the baby before that happens, Yes, does Sometimes that
Speaker 1: doesn't get finished. Well, we're much better now in California
Speaker 1: than we were. Many states have a very short change
Speaker 1: of mind period. California's at thirty days, some have it
Speaker 1: as as little as forty eight hours. But uh, if
Speaker 1: you get to that stage, most most of the time
Speaker 1: is really very still they do. We have every state
Speaker 1: in the United States is quite independent, and each one
Speaker 1: believes they have the best adoption laws and none of
Speaker 1: the other adoption laws are any good in any other state.
Speaker 1: And this is the key element if if if anybody
Speaker 1: gets anything out of the time I'm spending with you,
Speaker 1: it is that you must do your homework and start
Speaker 1: with a team of people who know the law and
Speaker 1: know enough to ask questions when they don't know the
Speaker 1: law about another state. Because many of the adoptions that
Speaker 1: occur involve a birth parent in one state and adopted
Speaker 1: parents here where you are in a different state. And
Speaker 1: if you don't know those laws and you start spending
Speaker 1: money on that birth mother and the state where the
Speaker 1: birth mother is says you may not do that, you
Speaker 1: could end up screwing up your own adoption and getting
Speaker 1: into trouble with the authorities for it. In California, if
Speaker 1: you pay improper expenses to a birth mother as a
Speaker 1: doctor parents, it's a felony, but it's only a misdemeanor
Speaker 1: for the birth mother to take the money. So it's
Speaker 1: important to get good quality people. So how do you
Speaker 1: know how do you not mess that up? It really
Speaker 1: just depends on the lawyer you get it does that.
Speaker 1: They really have to be educated and skilled and know
Speaker 1: all those laws. All you have to know is how
Speaker 1: to dial a telephone. That's all a lawyer really has
Speaker 1: to know in that regard. Because I go and when
Speaker 1: a person comes into me and they say we we
Speaker 1: we are working with them, and we find a birth
Speaker 1: mother in Rhode Island. I don't know the law in
Speaker 1: Rhode Island. But I call a colleague of mine who
Speaker 1: I trust from the American Academy of Adoption Attorneys, and
Speaker 1: I say, you're in Rhode Island. I have a adopted
Speaker 1: parent here in California. What do I need to know
Speaker 1: so that we don't run a foul of your laws.
Speaker 1: Then we have the discussion that I'm able to go
Speaker 1: to the client and say if we can work with
Speaker 1: her in Rhode Island. And here's the reason why. The
Speaker 1: success rank or the success rate on adoptions in the
Speaker 1: United States is about nine of adoption matches are successfully concluded.
Speaker 1: But there are those ten percent that are not, and
Speaker 1: it's devastating for people. It is no reassurance to an
Speaker 1: adoptive family to say, well, of the cases go fine
Speaker 1: if you're in that, yeah, that's all. That's all I
Speaker 1: heard was in my office, we we average success. But
Speaker 1: that's just because I am very, very conservative about things,
Speaker 1: and I insist on really good communication with clients. Clients
Speaker 1: need to share with the attorney whenever their conversations with
Speaker 1: the birth parents that they may have outside of the
Speaker 1: earshot of the attorney, they need to share with the
Speaker 1: attorney what is said, because that's where you discern inconsistencies.
Speaker 1: And as soon as you discern an inconsistency in the story,
Speaker 1: are the things the birth mother is telling you, Oh,
Speaker 1: I've never been pregnant, but on her form she says
Speaker 1: she's been pregnant twice and she's had two abortions. If
Speaker 1: they're lying about the small stuff, the odds are good,
Speaker 1: they're going to be lying about the big stuff, and
Speaker 1: you want to have really good communication with your attorney.
Speaker 1: Wonderful tip. Do you find it there's difference that have
Speaker 1: you worked with single parents versus married couple, same sex couples,
Speaker 1: Like what is the are their differences are there? Well,
Speaker 1: I'll say this, there are some birth parents who only
Speaker 1: want a big Osmond or King Sisters family. I mean,
Speaker 1: they want hundreds and hundreds of family members for their
Speaker 1: child to go into this big, broad, embracing sort of
Speaker 1: Italian thirty people at the table families. There are others
Speaker 1: who just want their child to be the prince or
Speaker 1: princess in the home. They want the child to be
Speaker 1: the first, the last, and the only child in the home.
Speaker 1: U there are some who say it doesn't matter, and
Speaker 1: there are some who bring their prejudices to the picture.
Speaker 1: I've had single women clients who the birth mothers say, oh,
Speaker 1: she must be a lesbian because she's single. And I
Speaker 1: have to remind the birth mothers of that old glorious
Speaker 1: Steinhum quote that a woman needs a man like a
Speaker 1: fish needs a bicycle. Uh, you know, and and and
Speaker 1: and say them, don't assume that, because there are plenty
Speaker 1: of women who choose deliberately not to be married, and
Speaker 1: that they wish to raise single parents raised children as
Speaker 1: single parents. So the birth mothers come in with their
Speaker 1: own prejudices. Similarly, adoptive parents come in with their own prejudices.
Speaker 1: I've had adopted parents match with birth moms based on
Speaker 1: cone heat. That's the center of the heat at the
Speaker 1: center of a kiln when you're firing pottery. I had
Speaker 1: a birth mom who came in the adoptive family. Sheep
Speaker 1: was interested in were people who were saramusis, and they
Speaker 1: spent the better part of the hour we spent together
Speaker 1: in my conference room talking about the variation of cone
Speaker 1: heat in kilns. I've had birth mothers select adoptive parents
Speaker 1: because the birth mother comes into my office wearing a
Speaker 1: cool lot outfit and the picture of the adoptive parent
Speaker 1: has the identical outfit, berkan stock, sandals, astrological signs, what not,
Speaker 1: like the same sports. It's just it's so it's completely
Speaker 1: like random, random, and like just I don't know, if
Speaker 1: you believe in fate or whatever that is. It's be shared,
Speaker 1: which we would completely say, but yes, it's but shared.
Speaker 1: It's like that unknowing, like that you can't put a
Speaker 1: word to it. It just it just happened. It just happened, well, right,
Speaker 1: And so I'm always saying to clients you must be
Speaker 1: honest with your attorney, but more importantly, you must also
Speaker 1: be honest with yourself, because if you try to make
Speaker 1: yourself into the perfect attractive adoptive parent, it's a charade
Speaker 1: that's impossible. They take because it could come down to
Speaker 1: cool well yeah, or kill me, kill me. How long
Speaker 1: does the adoption process take from start to finish after
Speaker 1: the birth of the child. You're looking at six to
Speaker 1: eight months if everybody is doing what they're supposed to
Speaker 1: be doing in a timely manner, if you're taught, and
Speaker 1: that's in people's What about from start to finish? I'm
Speaker 1: talking like when they come in, it's usually nine months
Speaker 1: to two years. It's usually nine months to two years. Uh.
Speaker 1: But but sometimes I had a case fairly early on
Speaker 1: in my career where the adopted family came in and
Speaker 1: met with me on an initial consultation in the morning,
Speaker 1: and in the afternoon I got a call from the
Speaker 1: hospital and they said, do you have a family, and
Speaker 1: this is exactly what we're looking for, And it was
Speaker 1: this family And I called him up on the phone
Speaker 1: and the wife answered the phone and I said, Liz,
Speaker 1: are you interested in adopting a baby boy? Here are
Speaker 1: the statistics. The child was just born and has at
Speaker 1: such and such hospital here in the San Fernando Valley
Speaker 1: and I heard a thud and the floor and then
Speaker 1: I heard this man's voice. It was clearly her husband,
Speaker 1: and he says, who is this? I said, it's Dave
Speaker 1: Bomb calling. He said, what did you say to my wife?
Speaker 1: I said, I just told her I just heard about
Speaker 1: an adoption situation. The hospitals waiting to know whether you
Speaker 1: would like to come get a baby. Boy. He said,
Speaker 1: I'll revive for and will be down there in thirty minutes,
Speaker 1: So it can it can happen that quickly. You know,
Speaker 1: you have to be prepared. I have a colleague who says,
Speaker 1: are you ready for your star moment? He says, you
Speaker 1: have to be willing to say to me, if you
Speaker 1: call me tonight, I will get to the hospital and
Speaker 1: be there for the baby. If you're not ready, if
Speaker 1: you still need to go through therapy about your infertility
Speaker 1: or things like that, then it's not time to start
Speaker 1: this process. Wow, that's a great piece of advice. So really,
Speaker 1: parents should come and be do all the work for
Speaker 1: working with you or an adoption attorney. If they're like,
Speaker 1: I'm ready to I would like to have a baby
Speaker 1: like as soon as possible. Well, true, because what happens
Speaker 1: is when I sit across the desk from clients who
Speaker 1: come in and meet with me, they just see my
Speaker 1: two eyes, but I see their four eyes, and I
Speaker 1: can see and I have seen at times in consultations
Speaker 1: with clients the wife is waxing poetic about the thrills
Speaker 1: of parenthood and the husband is literally rolling his eyes
Speaker 1: and and giving all the facial expressions that say I'm
Speaker 1: not there yet. And at the end of those consultations,
Speaker 1: I will say to the clients, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: think I can be of help to you, because I
Speaker 1: think the two of you probably need to do some
Speaker 1: talking with one another, because we all have to be
Speaker 1: on the same page. You know, as a parent that
Speaker 1: parenting is a tag team event, and so is adopting.
Speaker 1: It is also a tag team event. Sometimes when one
Speaker 1: parent is feeling, oh, is this ever gonna happen, the
Speaker 1: other is there to say, of course it's going to happen.
Speaker 1: This is the next step we're going to do. And
Speaker 1: when they're not on the same page and one is
Speaker 1: rowing across the pond and the other is drilling holes
Speaker 1: in the back of the boat, it's not a good situation.
Speaker 1: A single adoption in person. Who do they go to? Family?
Speaker 1: Ideally they will the clients that I have from the
Speaker 1: l g PT can anity or the single parents who
Speaker 1: just want to be single parents usually have their own family.
Speaker 1: It may not be blood family, yes, but they have
Speaker 1: their support systems that's supporting them through this whole thing.
Speaker 1: Do you find that they bring a friend to Rarely?
Speaker 1: It's it's we've come a long way, and adoption is
Speaker 1: much more out there and open than it was. But
Speaker 1: none of us walk around and introduce our children as oh,
Speaker 1: this is my adopted son or this is my adopted daughter.
Speaker 1: These are just my children. And so I had such
Speaker 1: an old school way. I mean when we were talking
Speaker 1: to Dan Bukatinsky and I had such a I said, oh,
Speaker 1: given up for adoption and he said, oh, we don't
Speaker 1: say given up, we say placed. And I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, like being a child in the eighties
Speaker 1: like that, that's what we said, Oh you're given up
Speaker 1: for adoption or that child was getting you know, that's
Speaker 1: like how you phrase it, and it's not you're a
Speaker 1: chosen child. That's another one that well, why didn't my
Speaker 1: mother choose to keep me? It's the ling goes all different,
Speaker 1: now all different. What would you say is advice for
Speaker 1: adoptive parents if they're going to hire an attorney, like,
Speaker 1: what is there? Is there a list of questions or
Speaker 1: something or or is it just a gut feeling that
Speaker 1: this is the person I want to go through? This
Speaker 1: can be very challenging and long process. Well, my advice
Speaker 1: would be there are two resources that I think are invaluable.
Speaker 1: The first is the American Academy of Adoption Attorneys, because
Speaker 1: that's nationwide and they have the pre eminent adoption attorneys
Speaker 1: in the United States. The entry requirements and the legal
Speaker 1: ethics requirements to maintain fellowship in those are in that
Speaker 1: organization are very very significant. So you start with a
Speaker 1: group of people who are already well educated, well informed,
Speaker 1: and well connected to help you adopt. The second resource
Speaker 1: here in California is the Academy of California Adoption Lawyers.
Speaker 1: I served as president of that Academy for sixteen years.
Speaker 1: It was that I was such a great president. It
Speaker 1: was more that no one else wanted to do it.
Speaker 1: But we have in our academy. I think it's now
Speaker 1: about party two of the pre eminent adoption and family
Speaker 1: formation attorneys in the unit in the state of California.
Speaker 1: We teach other attorneys how to do adoption law. We
Speaker 1: meet and we have continuing education programs. We we author articles,
Speaker 1: we lecture, and we have standards again for admission two
Speaker 1: D adoptions at a minimum, and you have to have
Speaker 1: Our ethical standards are higher than the state bar imposes
Speaker 1: upon lawyers practicing in California, and we have very rigorous
Speaker 1: continuing education requirements. So you start with that. Then you
Speaker 1: ask the questions that you want to ask, and then
Speaker 1: don't be shy about it. If you only want to
Speaker 1: adopt a Hispanic child, say I only want to adopt
Speaker 1: Hispanic child, is that problem? If you want to be
Speaker 1: gender specific, ask the questions you feel like asking. But
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, you hit the nail
Speaker 1: on the head, Katie, it's you have to trust your gut.
Speaker 1: If you sit down with the attorney and all the
Speaker 1: diplomas look magnificent and the brochures look lovely, and you
Speaker 1: don't feel comfortable, all you need to trust your gut
Speaker 1: with that because it's it is a partnership vulnerable for
Speaker 1: a long period of time, and if you're gonna always worry,
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. If I call the attorney, he's going
Speaker 1: to charge. He charges by the hour, and many of
Speaker 1: us don't we charge on a flat fee basis. He
Speaker 1: charges by the hour. It's going to cost me money
Speaker 1: every time I ask a question. Then you're gonna feel
Speaker 1: I don't maybe I shouldn't ask the question, and you're
Speaker 1: depriving yourself as something that maybe you really need to
Speaker 1: have the answer to. And it's also true with regard
Speaker 1: to the adopted adoption situation. I had a client who
Speaker 1: we presented an absolutely magnificent birth mother too, absolutely magnificent,
Speaker 1: And the client said to me, that's not my baby.
Speaker 1: And I hung up the phone and I thought to myself,
Speaker 1: you gotta be kidding me. If you went uh and
Speaker 1: you programmed the perfect birth mother academics, physical health, emotional
Speaker 1: well being, stability, intellectual curiosity, the quality of her pregnancy,
Speaker 1: her do date, her lack of expenses, I couldn't imagine
Speaker 1: anyone what happened would turn the child down. Well, we
Speaker 1: had no trouble matching that birth mother with another family. Now, ultimately,
Speaker 1: this client went on to adopt, and they invited my
Speaker 1: wife and me to a party at their home to
Speaker 1: celebrate the arrival of the child. And we walked through
Speaker 1: the door and the wife came out and said to me,
Speaker 1: it's so good you're here. You're like family to us.
Speaker 1: I mean, we wouldn't have a family were enough for you.
Speaker 1: And I turned her and I said, looking back at
Speaker 1: the situation that you turned down, do you feel any
Speaker 1: differently now about that than you did then? And she said, no,
Speaker 1: that was not my child. This child that I have
Speaker 1: here is that it was the child for me. Wow.
Speaker 1: I still when I think of adoption. I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's because of movies or something, but you still
Speaker 1: think of orphanages. Did it exist anymore? Really? They don't.
Speaker 1: They don't know. I mean maybe in outside of the US,
Speaker 1: and they exist in the world of Charles Dickens. They
Speaker 1: exist outside of the United States and in the musical Hamilton's.
Speaker 1: But with those with those relatively few exceptions, they don't. Well,
Speaker 1: you think about it. Vista del Mar, which one of
Speaker 1: your guests used, was originally called the Jewish Orphans Home,
Speaker 1: and when it was first formed back I think it
Speaker 1: was in theties. It took in Jewish orphans, But we
Speaker 1: don't have that anymore. Even the adoption agencies really are
Speaker 1: not orphanages like the child is there and you can
Speaker 1: come get a child. It doesn't work that way. Wow, Well,
Speaker 1: that's that's good. What are the typical costs? This is
Speaker 1: where I really want to get into, Like I'm sure
Speaker 1: they vary. Okay, there's the carte version for this is
Speaker 1: the agency version. But what is in your fourty years experience,
Speaker 1: and obviously money has also changed in the last forty
Speaker 1: years of what things cost at this day and age,
Speaker 1: what is the least amount and what is the most amount.
Speaker 1: I think that what you have to figure realistically is
Speaker 1: the lowest amount is going to be in the vicinity
Speaker 1: of about ten thousand dollars. Because if you're here in
Speaker 1: California and you have to do a home study under
Speaker 1: California law, the state mandates a fee of so right there,
Speaker 1: and that's for someone to come in and and study
Speaker 1: your house to make sure that you are right, that
Speaker 1: you They have all these things that they look at
Speaker 1: to make sure that your home is going to be
Speaker 1: a safe place right for me. But it's it's really
Speaker 1: it's also and perhaps more importantly to study you. Because
Speaker 1: I've had clients who have adopted who have shared a
Speaker 1: studio apartment and that's what they've had to raise a
Speaker 1: child in. You don't have to have a certain level
Speaker 1: of income to be able to adopt. You just have
Speaker 1: to have a safe living environment. And for young couples,
Speaker 1: a studio apartment is just fine. Okay. But to answer
Speaker 1: your question, in my office right now, we are quoting
Speaker 1: people a range of eighteen thousand, five hundred dollars to
Speaker 1: complete for adoption for everything except outreach, because we don't
Speaker 1: know how much money we're going to be spending running
Speaker 1: newspaper ads or being on the internet to find adoptable children.
Speaker 1: When you go over the hill and you go into
Speaker 1: more expensive areas like Beverly Hills, for example, or you
Speaker 1: go to the East Coast to places like Philadelphia, the
Speaker 1: cost of adoption goes way up because the attorneys pay
Speaker 1: higher amounts for rent and because the market will bear it.
Speaker 1: So it is not uncommon for people to have adoptions
Speaker 1: which run ten thousand dollars to fifty fifty five thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: In California, we have laws that govern what hand and
Speaker 1: cannot be paid for birth mothers. They have to be
Speaker 1: medical or living related expenses of a birth mother during
Speaker 1: the period of her confinement or her pregnancy, and so
Speaker 1: that brings some control over it. But there are other
Speaker 1: states where you can pay for virtually everything. So when
Speaker 1: we are talking with potential birth parents on behalf of
Speaker 1: adoptive parents, one of the things that we're doing is
Speaker 1: we're asking them to tell us what their financial needs
Speaker 1: are so we can make sure that you don't go
Speaker 1: into Chapter eleven proceedings trying to adopt a child. But again,
Speaker 1: I'm providing you with some resources for places where adopted
Speaker 1: families can get some financing to assist them with adoption.
Speaker 1: They have, it does, and remarkably so in this present
Speaker 1: environment politically. The one thing that the White House and
Speaker 1: Congress has not disturbed, thank God for it is the
Speaker 1: adoption Tax Credit, which is a nash Sational adoption tax credit,
Speaker 1: and it is over fourteen thousand dollars of acceptable adoption
Speaker 1: expenses which come off of your tax liability dollar for dollar,
Speaker 1: and that is a major relief because if you get
Speaker 1: a birth mother who's due in two or three months,
Speaker 1: she's living at home, she doesn't have a lot of expenses,
Speaker 1: she has health insurance through her parents, your adoption is
Speaker 1: going to run more in the ten thousand to eighteen
Speaker 1: thousand dollar range, including that home study and any co
Speaker 1: pays for the hospital and things like that. And with
Speaker 1: that tax credit, you could actually do an adoption that
Speaker 1: may not cost you more than four or five thousand
Speaker 1: dollars out of your pocket ultimately. And the last thing
Speaker 1: to say about that is that if you suffer the
Speaker 1: misfortune of having an adoption go south and fail on you,
Speaker 1: that adoption tax credit is available to you as well.
Speaker 1: Oh thank god, because well the money, you know, the
Speaker 1: money comes back. But really the place that's irreparably harmed
Speaker 1: is the trust level. Know you, you put your trust
Speaker 1: in the birth parent and you hope they'll follow through,
Speaker 1: and then when they say I've changed my mind, Um,
Speaker 1: you don't know that you'll ever be able to trust
Speaker 1: a woman who says I'll place my child for adoption
Speaker 1: with you again. And you have to sort of pick
Speaker 1: yourself up and if at least you can regroup in
Speaker 1: the money department, you have a fighting chance to try again.
Speaker 1: Um you just mentioned I mean that's the biggest hurdle, Um,
Speaker 1: I think is it's not working out in the end.
Speaker 1: Are there other hurdles that you like, you know, may
Speaker 1: warn well. I think that I think it's about I
Speaker 1: think it sounds a lot like your support system, your relationship.
Speaker 1: Like you said, when one person is ruling holes and
Speaker 1: one person's you know, but that when the going gets
Speaker 1: tough or something and people get discouraged, it's like you
Speaker 1: have people around you to pick you up. It's something's
Speaker 1: taking too long, or the birth mother doesn't work out
Speaker 1: and you have to start all over again, which I'm
Speaker 1: sure happens in the middle of the process. Catch sometimes
Speaker 1: it happens at the very end. I early on in
Speaker 1: my career had a birth mom who was morbidly obese
Speaker 1: and an adoptive family of a dentist at his spouse,
Speaker 1: and they were a lovely couple, and the birth mom
Speaker 1: was a really good person. She was just morbidly obese.
Speaker 1: In an effort to make sure she got the best
Speaker 1: possible medical care, we hooked her up with a doctor
Speaker 1: who was a professor of obstetrics at a major teaching
Speaker 1: university hospital so that she could get the extra level
Speaker 1: of care for someone with her weight. Nonetheless, she did
Speaker 1: not pay any attention to the the fact when she stopped
Speaker 1: feeling the baby move about three or four weeks before
Speaker 1: the due date, and she didn't report anything to the doctor.
Speaker 1: So when the doctor when the baby was born, the
Speaker 1: baby had insufficient brain development, and the adoptive family had
Speaker 1: to make the choice that they were not going to
Speaker 1: proceed with the adoption because of that. The young woman
Speaker 1: took the baby and and has raised the baby herself.
Speaker 1: But that's that can happen. And you can get birth
Speaker 1: mothers who go to hospitals because they don't have the
Speaker 1: guidance of an attorney to say this is not the
Speaker 1: hospital for you, where the hospital nurses have an agenda
Speaker 1: and they actually will say to the birth mother, how
Speaker 1: can you do this? How can you place give away
Speaker 1: your baby if you shouldn't be doing that. You have
Speaker 1: a hard time, lots of people have a hard time.
Speaker 1: Suck it up, get over it. And they will talk
Speaker 1: the birth mother out of the placement. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: how do you how DoD I mean that is? And
Speaker 1: you know what happens. The adoptive family is upset. They
Speaker 1: don't go back and notify the director at the hospital
Speaker 1: that this is going on. It is an unreported assault
Speaker 1: on the birth mother. When our daughter's birth mother gave birth.
Speaker 1: We were not told about it until after the baby
Speaker 1: was born. But our attorney, since I didn't handle my
Speaker 1: own adopt called us and said a nurse came into
Speaker 1: the room and said to your birth mother, you shouldn't
Speaker 1: be doing this, and the birth mother said, I will
Speaker 1: give you five seconds to get out of this room
Speaker 1: before I colck. You talk about it in power. So
Speaker 1: now when I look at my twenty nine year old
Speaker 1: daughter and I see I see some of her biological
Speaker 1: mother in these moments where she isn't going to be
Speaker 1: pushed a wrap, There's no doubt about it. Love it.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Um. Have you worked with birth parents
Speaker 1: who placed their child for adoption? Yes, I never worked
Speaker 1: with both, so I think it's malpracticed to say, oh,
Speaker 1: we're all striving towards the same goal. Let's have you
Speaker 1: all everyone represent together. I have worked with birth parents
Speaker 1: and they have run the gamut. I have had birth
Speaker 1: parents who have two degrees from universities and speak four
Speaker 1: languages who just found they were pregnant and an inappropriate time.
Speaker 1: I had a high school health teacher who mistook the
Speaker 1: signs of pregnancy for being perimenopausal uh and discovered when
Speaker 1: she went to her doctor that she said, I have
Speaker 1: this mass and it's developing in my abdomen and I
Speaker 1: think I need surgery. And he said, oh, there will
Speaker 1: be no need. In about six months that mass will
Speaker 1: come out as a baby. And she said, that's impossible.
Speaker 1: What are some of the questions that anyone who's interested
Speaker 1: in adoption to ask themselves before they go down the road?
Speaker 1: You know, we said, like you can tell in their eyes,
Speaker 1: like some times if you guys aren't there yet, or
Speaker 1: I think you have to ask yourselves if you're single,
Speaker 1: Am I ready to make the time commitment? And do
Speaker 1: I have a game plan thought out? I'm going to
Speaker 1: bring the baby home? I still have a job. Have
Speaker 1: I interviewed pediatricians? Have I talked to people who are
Speaker 1: single about how they manage it? Am I ready to
Speaker 1: make the sacrifices they come with being a parent. Because
Speaker 1: the ability when you are not a parent to say,
Speaker 1: let's go away for the weekend. Let's just you know,
Speaker 1: have the neighbor looking on the dog and we'll go
Speaker 1: to Las Vegas or will fly away. You can't do it,
Speaker 1: and you have to recognize that you can't be the
Speaker 1: center of attention anymore because the child will need your attention.
Speaker 1: I think in marital relations, if your marriage is not
Speaker 1: strong and your relationship with one another is not rock solid,
Speaker 1: bringing a baby in is not going to help it.
Speaker 1: And sometimes people feel, oh, baby makes three and that
Speaker 1: will be wonderful, So they really need to look at that.
Speaker 1: And then you need to look at will I be
Speaker 1: able to get past the feeling that I'm adopting a
Speaker 1: child I'm not having my own. Well, I be able
Speaker 1: to deal with that. Some parents can't. For those who
Speaker 1: feel that if it's not genetically mine, I will not
Speaker 1: be able to ever love it the same way, they
Speaker 1: need to come and talk with me about assisted reproduction
Speaker 1: and family formation through surrogacy. That's it's necessary. You want
Speaker 1: to have those discussions ideally before and think those things
Speaker 1: through before the baby is born, and you try your
Speaker 1: best to do it. I know I tried my best
Speaker 1: to do with my wife when we were looking at
Speaker 1: the process of adopting. But I'll share this little story
Speaker 1: with you. Our daughter was born out of state, and
Speaker 1: we went up in the morning to pick her up
Speaker 1: at the hospital, and we flew home that night and
Speaker 1: brought her home to our little condominium in Encino, and uh,
Speaker 1: the grandparents came over and spent time Ouie and I
Speaker 1: and how beautiful she was. And the godfather came over,
Speaker 1: and the godmother came over, and then at about nine
Speaker 1: o'clock at night, my wife and I were really exhausted,
Speaker 1: and they graciously took the hint and left. My wife
Speaker 1: takes Jesse into the room, her into the nursery area
Speaker 1: to change her diaper, and I went to the kitchen
Speaker 1: to grab a glass to water. And it hit me
Speaker 1: as I was walking back towards Jesse's room that I
Speaker 1: was not so certain that I was up to this task.
Speaker 1: And I walked to my wife and I said to her, ah,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can do this, And she
Speaker 1: said to me, you know what, it's a little too
Speaker 1: late now, suck it up, you know. But that she
Speaker 1: got back to the business of diapering, and I got
Speaker 1: into the business of parenting with her, and I realized,
Speaker 1: you're always going to have that nervousness every person who
Speaker 1: brings a newborn in their homehouse. I definitely had, without
Speaker 1: a doubt, and I didn't you know, you know, I
Speaker 1: have I berthed my son, but I definitely brought him
Speaker 1: home and thought, who is this stranger in my house?
Speaker 1: And what did I do to my life? And you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm up for the task either,
Speaker 1: and suck it up, you know, like this was you
Speaker 1: got yourself in and you wanted, you know, to be
Speaker 1: a mom of course now you know, but I feel
Speaker 1: great about the choice. But well you can't when these
Speaker 1: huge life things are Do people ever start the process
Speaker 1: and then say to you, you know what, I really
Speaker 1: I'm scared that I'm not going to connect to the
Speaker 1: child because the child is adopted, and I'm going to
Speaker 1: look at the baby's face and they're not going to
Speaker 1: look like me or my partner or whatever. It happens,
Speaker 1: and some absolutely back out of the process. Mercifully, it
Speaker 1: usually happens before a match is made. I do not
Speaker 1: think I've ever had a situation. No, I'm fairly certain
Speaker 1: I've never had a situation where after a match a
Speaker 1: couple says we've changed our mind, we don't want to proceed.
Speaker 1: But pre match, oh yes, because part of the problem
Speaker 1: is when you're adopting, you never as an adoptive parent.
Speaker 1: Now I'm not going to speak as an attorney I'm
Speaker 1: gonna speak as an adoptive parent, which I am. You
Speaker 1: never allow yourself any of the pleasures of the experience
Speaker 1: of a pregnancy. If you can be quite pleasure with pregnancy, uh,
Speaker 1: you never allow yourself any of those pleasures going through
Speaker 1: the process, because in the back of your mind is
Speaker 1: that what if she changes her with dan. It's like you,
Speaker 1: you can only be super cautiously optimistic. You don't dare
Speaker 1: indulge the real big dreaming, and so suddenly it all
Speaker 1: comes upon you. It. People in the supermarkets will turn
Speaker 1: turn to us. When our daughter was little, and we
Speaker 1: used to go to the grocery store and bring her
Speaker 1: with us, and they'd say, oh, that baby is so cute. Uh,
Speaker 1: but she has no hair and or she looks this way.
Speaker 1: How is she your child? And we say yes. And
Speaker 1: for a while we used to say we adopted her
Speaker 1: and they'd say, oh, well, at least you didn't have
Speaker 1: to go through labor. My people say, the most ridiculous ship,
Speaker 1: that is absurd. If you want to just you know what,
Speaker 1: we didn't have physical labor. I acknowledged that we didn't
Speaker 1: that instead we had no real moments of pleasure mental
Speaker 1: and you had mental and emotional pregnancy, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like you have that window, however long. It
Speaker 1: takes some people two years of pondering and dreaming a
Speaker 1: little bit, but then keeping it at bay right, and
Speaker 1: then you have the baby, and you have the baby
Speaker 1: in sight. Now the do data is approaching and at
Speaker 1: the time we adopted, a birth mom had six months
Speaker 1: to change her mind for any reason. It didn't even
Speaker 1: have to be a good reason. So we went out
Speaker 1: of state where we could finalize in ten days. In
Speaker 1: Oregon we were able to do it in ten days,
Speaker 1: and so we didn't have all that stress. But there
Speaker 1: were good moments in the grocery store too. You'd be
Speaker 1: in the grocery store and someone to come and look
Speaker 1: at Jesse and say, oh, she's so cute. How old
Speaker 1: is she? And my wife would say, oh, she's six
Speaker 1: weeks old, and they'd say it looked like unbelievable. Are
Speaker 1: we get The other one, which was always good, was
Speaker 1: she has the most beautiful blue eyes and where does
Speaker 1: she get those eyes? And my wife would say from
Speaker 1: her mother. And they look at my wife, who does
Speaker 1: not have blue eyes, and they look at the baby. Again.
Speaker 1: They didn't know what to say hilarious, I love it.
Speaker 1: Can you recommend any helpful resources for those considering a doubt?
Speaker 1: I would just also add that there are sites which
Speaker 1: I'll give you information for about where you can go
Speaker 1: as a resource for good lawyers and good agencies to
Speaker 1: work with. There are also sites that talk about funding
Speaker 1: and financial assistance for people who are looking to adopt.
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, it's about doing
Speaker 1: your homework and making sure that you're working with the
Speaker 1: right people. As I approached the year, in my practice,
Speaker 1: I'm shifting the way that I practice in the field
Speaker 1: of adoption law, and now what I'm doing more is
Speaker 1: I'm sitting down with clients who are thinking about adoption
Speaker 1: and talking with them about the concept of adoption, the
Speaker 1: avenues available for adoption, and helping match them up with
Speaker 1: those resources, with the attorneys or the agencies that would
Speaker 1: best suit their personalities, their budget, and their expectations. So
Speaker 1: it's a more of a concierge service that I am
Speaker 1: offering now rather than finding babies for people, because not
Speaker 1: every attorney is right for every adoptive parent, and so
Speaker 1: that that initial matches I think the most important thing.
Speaker 1: So you recommend people may be meeting with a few
Speaker 1: lawyers or absolutely or working with someone like myself for
Speaker 1: others who do this work, who will sit and talk
Speaker 1: to the clients and find out what they're looking for
Speaker 1: and what their expectations are, and say, you know, with
Speaker 1: your personalities and what your desires are, these are the
Speaker 1: people I would recommend you interview. These would be the
Speaker 1: short list of one or two. I used to early
Speaker 1: on in my practice. Clients would come in and meet
Speaker 1: with me and we would give them the fee agreements,
Speaker 1: and we had a fairly good amount who signed up
Speaker 1: with me on the spot. I stopped doing that about
Speaker 1: maybe twenty years ago, and part of it was because
Speaker 1: my fee agreement was thirteen pages long because it has
Speaker 1: to cover so much material. But also it was because
Speaker 1: I really felt that after a consultation, no matter how
Speaker 1: enthusiastic you are, you need to go home and talk
Speaker 1: with your spouse or your support group or if you're
Speaker 1: a single person, or your family or your friends and
Speaker 1: make sure you feel right. And you're not doing it
Speaker 1: because you're enthusiastic, but you're making a business decision. That's
Speaker 1: why you're a good lawyer, That's why you're amazing because
Speaker 1: like you have to give people you know you're not
Speaker 1: looking to let's do this right here and now. It
Speaker 1: doesn't work that way. It is such an emotional legal thing.
Speaker 1: But that is exactly the you've hit the nail on
Speaker 1: the head. No one wants to talk about adoption as
Speaker 1: a business transaction. They want to talk about it as
Speaker 1: an affair of the heart. But it is a busy
Speaker 1: and steel first and foremost. You are going to be
Speaker 1: asked to put out some money, and you best make
Speaker 1: sure that you've hired the best people who will give
Speaker 1: you the best bang for your buck and do the
Speaker 1: job that you need done. If not, it's a terrible choice.
Speaker 1: And if it's if if they're enthusiastic about their meeting
Speaker 1: with me and they read the the agreement and they
Speaker 1: talk and they're still enthusiastic, that's a good match. Being
Speaker 1: enthusiastic because I just need to do something. I need
Speaker 1: to sign something right now. I just need to get
Speaker 1: that ball rolling. And then going home and saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: I wonder if I should have considered something else. I
Speaker 1: wonder if I should have met with just another attorney,
Speaker 1: so I had some compare, some comparison, and then of course,
Speaker 1: you get people who come by referral. I've been very
Speaker 1: blessed to have the people who I've done adoptions for
Speaker 1: who refer their friends and their family and their colleagues.
Speaker 1: And not every person who they refer hires me. Not
Speaker 1: every person is someone I can help, but those referrals
Speaker 1: are really what builds the business. You are wonderful. I
Speaker 1: cannot thank you enough for lending us your time and
Speaker 1: your experience was so eye opening, and thank you for
Speaker 1: all of your time. Thank you for being on Katie's Crib.
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode.
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns.
Speaker 1: Let me know you can always find me at Katie's
Speaker 1: Crib at Shanda land dot com. Katie's Crib is a
Speaker 1: production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from shandoland Audio, visit the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
Speaker 1: favorite shows.