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Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio

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Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi everyone, and welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Katie's Crib. This week, I'm rereleasing one of

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Speaker 1: my early interviews back from We'll have a brand new

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Speaker 1: episode up for you next week. Enjoy the conversation. Bye bye,

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Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome back to Katie's Crib. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: I'm talking to my dear, dear friend and birthday twin,

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Speaker 1: Dan Buka Tinsky. Do you guys remember him? Me played

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Speaker 1: James Novak. I'm just this scene of this little show

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Speaker 1: called Scandal, and in addition to being an actor, Dan

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Speaker 1: is a producer, a writer, and an author of the

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Speaker 1: book called Does This Baby Make Me Look Straight? After Dan,

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Speaker 1: I talked to an adoption attorney, David Boum. David has

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Speaker 1: been practicing adoption law for over thirty five years, and

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Speaker 1: as an adoptive parent himself, he breaks down everything we

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Speaker 1: need to know about the adoption process. So let's get started.

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Speaker 1: Sitting with me on my couch right now is literally

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite fucking people on the planet by far.

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Speaker 1: We are birthday twins. We are birthday twins. We met

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Speaker 1: at Scandal, and it was like we had known each

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Speaker 1: other since the beginning of time. Ladies and Gentlemen, the one,

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Speaker 1: the only, Dan Buk and we've never ever, ever acted

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Speaker 1: together on the screen in all those years. We never

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Speaker 1: got that true one scene, not one scene when we're

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Speaker 1: in together, when you came back in a flashback, even

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Speaker 1: in an alternative reality. That's because Quinn just didn't exist.

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Speaker 1: Gwin didn't exists in the in the world that I

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Speaker 1: was in the bedroom the entire time, naked with Jeff

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Speaker 1: Perry for the most part, like maybe up your but

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Speaker 1: I had a couple of true I don't even get

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Speaker 1: me started on that, but yeah, yeah, for the most part. Now,

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Speaker 1: I worked with Tony and Bellamine and Josh and Carrie

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Speaker 1: had ever Darby Folly shot me. So I've worked with

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Speaker 1: everybody but you, Darby and Guillarmo actually and nobody on

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Speaker 1: the open nobody. Yeah. Well, your work on Scandal is

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Speaker 1: literally like the you and Jeff Perry scene is literally

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Speaker 1: like probably one of my top three Scandal scenes of

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Speaker 1: all time. Thank you for saying that you're acting is

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Speaker 1: incredible and referring to my body that too, that too.

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Speaker 1: Dan Bugatinski is a father of two adopted children correct

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Speaker 1: and also wrote a genius book about the experience, Does

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Speaker 1: Just Baby Make Me Look Straight? Which is a freaking

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Speaker 1: amazing title. So, um, I don't know as available on audiobook? Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's hilarious. Do you do the audio? Wow? I actually

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Speaker 1: need to download that. How did you and Don, your

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Speaker 1: incredible husband, who I'm also such a fan of, How

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Speaker 1: did you guys come to the decision to adopt kids? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, we we decided to become parents first, and

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Speaker 1: when we did, obviously for two guys that you have

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Speaker 1: so few options, it's either surrogacy or adoption. Um. And

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Speaker 1: you know, Don had a really strong feeling about not

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Speaker 1: wanting to not wanting to go through this surrogacy for

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Speaker 1: a bunch of different reasons. I didn't have as strong

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Speaker 1: a feeling about wanting that or not wanting that, um.

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Speaker 1: But he he had this feeling about not wanting there

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Speaker 1: to be some kind of even if it, as it

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Speaker 1: turns out, you know, these things really fade away. But

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Speaker 1: the feeling at the time had to do with one

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Speaker 1: person being biologically tied to that child and one of

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Speaker 1: them not and how that would be different. And now,

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Speaker 1: of course both of us have no DNA in common

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Speaker 1: with our children and cannot imagine loving them more than

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Speaker 1: we do without smothering them to death. That's the only

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Speaker 1: type of thingle you think, like, how is this gonna work?

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Speaker 1: And will I feel uncomfortable? And you're the sperm and

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Speaker 1: I'm not the s and I think it had a

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Speaker 1: lot of exactly. I think it was this fantasy of

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Speaker 1: like when I look in the eyes of my children

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Speaker 1: and I see you in there, where will I be?

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Speaker 1: Will I disappear? So there's and that's a very completely

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Speaker 1: normal and completely understandable feeling. There was this other aspect

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Speaker 1: of it, which was we were unbelievably aware he has

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Speaker 1: a niece and a nephew who are adopted, And there

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Speaker 1: was a huge awareness of the number of children currently

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Speaker 1: and babies currently born every day and who are currently

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Speaker 1: in the foster system. And it was a desire to

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Speaker 1: try to make a home for what is already what

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Speaker 1: was already on our planet, as opposed to creating new

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Speaker 1: life given the state of the planet that we're in. Um,

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Speaker 1: so you said you already knew adoptive So Don's siblings

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Speaker 1: was also an adoptive parents That was probably and helpful

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Speaker 1: to have as an inspiration or it was certainly in

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Speaker 1: that in the knowledge of that it was it was

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Speaker 1: around us. Did you use a public or private agency? Independent?

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Speaker 1: Opener closed, like, tell me the specifics of your adoption,

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Speaker 1: and there are a lot of different ways of doing it.

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Speaker 1: And the bottom line is adoption is a wonderful thing,

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Speaker 1: but you have to do a version of it that

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Speaker 1: works for your family. You cannot judge yourself based I think,

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Speaker 1: based on the choices that you want to make. You

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Speaker 1: have to do make choices that will work for you

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Speaker 1: as a as a family. And um we worked with

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Speaker 1: a private lawyer UM in Los Angeles who we had

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Speaker 1: been referred to by many people who had used him.

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Speaker 1: And we used a public, you know, nonprofit social services

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Speaker 1: agency called called Vista del Mar, which I'm a huge

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Speaker 1: I'm on the board of now, but i wasn't at

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Speaker 1: the time. And in conjunction, the two things in conjunction

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Speaker 1: with each other was like a perfect mix because the

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Speaker 1: resources we got from the family services agency, which was

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Speaker 1: a social work at it to us a parenting class

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Speaker 1: that we joined, which is a hilarious story and it

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Speaker 1: was so funny because all right, well and that alongside

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Speaker 1: with someone who you're paying to basically do the outreach

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Speaker 1: to try to match you with a birth mom. Those

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Speaker 1: two things in concert with each other. And at California

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Speaker 1: birth which is a state that allows two men to

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Speaker 1: adopt jointly at the same time, because in other states

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Speaker 1: one parent has to adopt and then a year later

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Speaker 1: the other one can legally be put on. But we

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Speaker 1: for many reasons, we wanted the adoption and we wanted

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Speaker 1: the birth to happen in Los Angeles, and this was

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Speaker 1: a lawyer that was going to facilitate that. But this

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Speaker 1: is Delmar was an amazing organization that allowed not only

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Speaker 1: social services and a social worker to talk to us,

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Speaker 1: but gave that birth mom a resource that she normally

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Speaker 1: would never have. And I can't talk more highly about

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Speaker 1: the experience of adopting when you're doing open adoption where

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Speaker 1: you're gonna meet a birth mom before the baby's born, right,

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Speaker 1: So just explain quickly like open adoption is like you're

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Speaker 1: involved with them, you know the mom you are chosen,

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Speaker 1: and then afterwards you can even stay open as far

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Speaker 1: as communication. It's completely it is a decision you all

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Speaker 1: make together as as a team, and open adoption is

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Speaker 1: one and it's called open because you know who the

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Speaker 1: birth mother is, she knows who you are. You have

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Speaker 1: an open line of communication, and the decision to place

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Speaker 1: that child with you is as decision made by her,

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Speaker 1: whereas many people have this idea of adoption of walking

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Speaker 1: into an orphanage and pointing to the baby that you

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Speaker 1: want and being and carrying it away, which is a

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Speaker 1: very hap it's not how it happened. And so a

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Speaker 1: closed adoption would be the files are closed. The files

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Speaker 1: are closed, like you're told your baby is born and

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Speaker 1: it's all through like legal or birth mother does not

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Speaker 1: really want any more ties for emotional reasons. She's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to place this child. I don't want them

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Speaker 1: to know I want I don't want them to contact me.

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Speaker 1: This is a decision I want to make. I know

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Speaker 1: they're going to be in better hands, but I don't

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Speaker 1: want to be contacted. And that's just a personal, emotional decision.

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Speaker 1: And so close adoption is one where you are given

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Speaker 1: access to a new baby and that information is sealed.

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Speaker 1: So take me through the process of your adoption, Like, um,

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Speaker 1: how long was it? What was the process? Like you

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Speaker 1: I'm sure going to fill out the most paperwork ever,

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Speaker 1: like we had to fill out. I mean, here's the

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Speaker 1: most ironic thing, which is when you're not when you

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Speaker 1: have a child biologically, you don't need to be fingerprinted,

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Speaker 1: you don't need a background check, No one does a

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Speaker 1: home study. You could literally be living in a nest

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Speaker 1: with a giant ostrich and no access to child proofing

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Speaker 1: at all anywhere, and no outlets to even put child

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Speaker 1: proofing on in your giant kness. You're allowed to do so,

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Speaker 1: and you're allowed to do so because you you adopt

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Speaker 1: the child. You are literally three visits from social workers,

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Speaker 1: absolute checking to make sure and then background checks, fingerprintings,

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Speaker 1: and they know yes, but that's they don't really base

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Speaker 1: adoption on that as much as well your ability to

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Speaker 1: care for the child for sure. But they they really

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Speaker 1: screen you, you really and you start to think about

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Speaker 1: it and you think, well, I think every parent and

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Speaker 1: is it like boy or girl or no. But but

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Speaker 1: you do make decisions. You make decisions where you're like,

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Speaker 1: all right, we're both white men. It's gonna be enough.

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Speaker 1: This is the way we thought it will be a

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Speaker 1: challenge enough for this child to grow up without a

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Speaker 1: mom and with two dads. That on top of that,

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Speaker 1: for them to not look like either one of us

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Speaker 1: and to feel like an outside or even in how

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Speaker 1: they look or feel or what the culture that they

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Speaker 1: grew up in or whatever their ethnic ties are, wasn't

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Speaker 1: something that we were comfortable with, and we felt like

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Speaker 1: to stack the deck in their favor. We would make

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Speaker 1: the only obstacle for them as to live with the

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Speaker 1: idea that they are coming from the same set up,

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Speaker 1: same sex couple. Now, I have family from Argentina and

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Speaker 1: I speak Spanish, and so I was really open to,

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Speaker 1: you know, raising a Latin American kid. We tried everything

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Speaker 1: to be able to adopt a Latin American kid, and

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Speaker 1: then it was it's very closed for religious reason reasons.

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Speaker 1: The gay community is not open. It's very rare for

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Speaker 1: a Latin American so far birth mother to choose. To guys,

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Speaker 1: what's the most common is sort of what happened to us,

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Speaker 1: which is a single mom, take me to that process.

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Speaker 1: What happened? Yeah, Basically, you know, when you talk to

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, what most of the resources that you give

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Speaker 1: to a lawyer in addition to his fee, is he

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Speaker 1: spends money for outreach to allow people in this country

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Speaker 1: to know if they are pregnant and do not want

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Speaker 1: to carry the baby, but they don't want to choose termination,

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Speaker 1: that there's another way. And so he you know, advertises

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Speaker 1: in yellow pages and line they make no. This is

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Speaker 1: an attorney that makes it very very easy for someone

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Speaker 1: to try to be able to make that choice. And

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Speaker 1: what he does is he takes all the people on

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Speaker 1: his list, all the prospective parents, straight, gay, single marriage,

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Speaker 1: all the types, and he will give each birth mother

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Speaker 1: three choices. And what we have to present is a

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Speaker 1: birth mother letter, just one letter is which it's a brochure,

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Speaker 1: so a whole packet to the life that just so

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Speaker 1: you know, this was fifteen years ago. So know that

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Speaker 1: now most of the stuff is digital, although there are

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Speaker 1: there are people who still to the stay feel like

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Speaker 1: you you know, you make no better impression than if

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Speaker 1: then real photographs. That to just some you know, digital

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Speaker 1: is so easy and so quick, and so that in

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Speaker 1: a way anything to give, anything, to give yourself up

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Speaker 1: to FedEx them and envelope with a letter that makes

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Speaker 1: reference to what your phone call with them was about.

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Speaker 1: Believe it, you get you get trained in all of this,

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Speaker 1: You get told to this whole process taking guys from

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Speaker 1: like the conversations to having adopting a child to win

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Speaker 1: she I mean when she was we had one false alarm,

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Speaker 1: which is all detailed in my book, not to make

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Speaker 1: people go out and get it, but there's a very

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Speaker 1: detailed story about the first birth mother we were involved

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Speaker 1: with and what and how that went down a path

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Speaker 1: that didn't feel comfortable for us, so we ended it.

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Speaker 1: And then on our birthday September, the year before my

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Speaker 1: daughter was born, so two thousand four, we got a

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Speaker 1: phone call from a birth mom and it was set

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Speaker 1: up by the lawyer. He's like, she's going to call

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Speaker 1: you at this time, and she did, and we were

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Speaker 1: both on different extensions and we had a long conversation.

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Speaker 1: And then from that September, by March, she was already

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Speaker 1: three months pregnant. By by March, we were in the

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Speaker 1: delivery room with her. So she picked us pretty quickly,

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Speaker 1: and she told us that she chose us because she

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Speaker 1: was a fan of the show Queer Eye for the

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Speaker 1: Straight Guy. So to this day, every time I run

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Speaker 1: into David Collins, who created that show, I'm like, he goes,

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Speaker 1: I know, I know you have me to thank for

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Speaker 1: your family, because I say to him every time, but

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Speaker 1: I always get tiery when I see him. Wow. What

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Speaker 1: was in your brochure? We have ours was um, let's see,

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Speaker 1: it was like six pages, and we showed lots of

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Speaker 1: photographs us with our dogs, us traveling, us at home.

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Speaker 1: We described what each of us liked to do. We exaggerated.

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Speaker 1: Don may have lied about how much she exercises or

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Speaker 1: goes outside. Maybe at the time we did. I may

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Speaker 1: have oversold how much tennis I play, um, but for

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Speaker 1: all small things. And neither one of us are very religious,

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Speaker 1: but both of us consider ourselves fairly spiritual people. So

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Speaker 1: we mentioned that because we certainly didn't want to close

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Speaker 1: ourselves off to someone who was looking for a religious family,

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Speaker 1: except that we were clearly not a very religious family,

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Speaker 1: So if that's what you're looking for, it wasn't going

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Speaker 1: to be us. So we we tried to give a

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Speaker 1: full picture of who we were as a couple and

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Speaker 1: what kind end of home we were hoping to create

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Speaker 1: for a family and UM. And the other thing we did,

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Speaker 1: which was something that had been told to us. It's

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Speaker 1: is really important is you take copious notes when you're

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Speaker 1: on the phone with the birth mom, and you ask

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Speaker 1: them as many questions as possible about them and their interests.

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Speaker 1: One of the things you don't want to do is

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Speaker 1: make someone feel like you hold the key to our

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Speaker 1: future as parents. So just tell me what you've been eating,

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Speaker 1: tell me how much you smoke, tell me if you drank,

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Speaker 1: tell me, like if they feel like they're on trial.

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Speaker 1: It's not a great way to start that relationship. And again,

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Speaker 1: and the truth is that baby isn't yours until it's

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Speaker 1: in your arms and a waiver has been signed. So

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Speaker 1: the tense part of it, you can't tell her or

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Speaker 1: judge her. However, the pregnancy you can have as many

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Speaker 1: thoughts as you want during the process. Our birth mom

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Speaker 1: smoked a back a day the whole time, and she

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Speaker 1: kept promising me that she would quit the minute the

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Speaker 1: baby was born. And she didn't seem to understand that

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Speaker 1: I didn't want her to quit for her sake. I

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Speaker 1: want her to quit for my baby's sake. Did an

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Speaker 1: intensive screening process of them, of the when you're filling

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Speaker 1: out all the paperwork that you are one of these

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Speaker 1: couple that is going to be shouted from the rooftop.

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Speaker 1: As I said, before, you have to do a bunch

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Speaker 1: of Uh, you have to do screening, visit steer house, Uh,

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Speaker 1: fingerprinting and then fingerprints. Oh yeah, I wasn't kidding a

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Speaker 1: background check. You can't sign up and have a you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean maybe you can get a lawyer to help

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Speaker 1: you find a baby, but not just makes sense. You

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Speaker 1: don't want something to be like And also just also

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Speaker 1: to spell another myth is that this this is not

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Speaker 1: baby buying. That's illegal in this entire country. You never

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Speaker 1: pay a fee to a birth mom to give you

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Speaker 1: a baby. You pay her medical expenses and they and

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Speaker 1: what usually happens is you put money in escrow with

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Speaker 1: the attorney and the birth mom has to submit her

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Speaker 1: bills to the attorney and they get paid out of

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Speaker 1: that escrow account. But they have to be pregnancy related.

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Speaker 1: And why that is it's very very smart because if

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Speaker 1: at any point in the future she could prove to

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Speaker 1: a judge that there had been money exchanged just for

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Speaker 1: the exchange of the baby, she could claim that she

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Speaker 1: was coerced. So everything has to be documented. And it's

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Speaker 1: it really is this unbelievably touching moment when you're chosen

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Speaker 1: by someone else to be entrusted to become the parent

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Speaker 1: of their of their unborn baby, and it's a decision

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Speaker 1: that they don't really actually sign off on until after

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Speaker 1: the baby has been born. So you're really very tense

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Speaker 1: until until that's finished. Because you hear these stories about

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Speaker 1: moms saying not signing or your stories, and they don't

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Speaker 1: they change their mind, say I changed my mind. It

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Speaker 1: is one of the list. So how did you prepare

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Speaker 1: to welcome Eliza? Like emotionally psychologically, how did you? I

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Speaker 1: mean it sounds like you were like cautiously optimistic because

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Speaker 1: you were in the similar ways that any conventional couple

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Speaker 1: that where the mom is expecting a baby is you know,

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Speaker 1: you know your you know your first three months, or

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Speaker 1: you don't want to tell anybody because you're like, what

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Speaker 1: if something happens, so you don't tell anybody. Well, in

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Speaker 1: many ways, we we have that for nine months, although

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Speaker 1: we found out a three months, so we had that

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Speaker 1: for six months. There were so many ways where we

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Speaker 1: were like, why are we going to paint an entire

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Speaker 1: room and get ourselves this ready and make the birth

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Speaker 1: mom feel like she really the only reason we value

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Speaker 1: her or care about her is because of this thing.

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Speaker 1: She's going to give us. We downplay it because, as

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Speaker 1: I said in my book and I say all the time,

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Speaker 1: this is one of those rare transactions where the happiest

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Speaker 1: day of your life quite possibly could be the saddest

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Speaker 1: day in a in a woman's life, and you can't

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Speaker 1: not look at that, you can't not be sensitive to that.

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Speaker 1: It's like this very strange passing over of caring for

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Speaker 1: this woman, this young she was in our birth mom

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Speaker 1: was nineteen at the time, so we have a very

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Speaker 1: paternal relationship towards her, and you're caring for her and

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Speaker 1: wanting her to emotionally trust you. You take me through

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Speaker 1: and you got the call that like she was in labor.

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Speaker 1: And as I said before, one of the reasons we

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Speaker 1: wanted to have this baby in California is because it's

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Speaker 1: California is a state where the fact that the baby

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Speaker 1: is born in a hospital in l a allowed both

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Speaker 1: of us to be in the delivery room and allowed

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Speaker 1: us both to be on the birth certificate. When when when,

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00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,720
Speaker 1: which was an amazing thing for us. So you were

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Speaker 1: fair when she came out, Yes, as was my friend Mary.

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Speaker 1: Feel it was unbelievable. It was unbelievable. I mean, to

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Speaker 1: be in that room and to have that baby. And

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Speaker 1: I was petrified by the way you were going to

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Speaker 1: faith at the site up to a day before, like

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Speaker 1: this is don, Don is so not He didn't look.

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Speaker 1: He didn't did he say to section hen And there's

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Speaker 1: a mirror of the ceiling. Oh my god, you cannot

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Speaker 1: look up. So he just kept his eyes down. I

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00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:53,800
Speaker 1: cut the umbilical quarter or he would have passed out.

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Speaker 1: And and as soon as she was I think, was

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Speaker 1: it an appointment, like she had a state scheduled. Yes,

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Speaker 1: except that with on my first with Eliza, what happens

351
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,359
Speaker 1: is in the last three weeks of the pregnancy, the

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Speaker 1: birth mom comes to Los Angeles at least this is

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Speaker 1: the way we did it, and she stays in l A.

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Speaker 1: We put her up somewhere and she was here with

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Speaker 1: her two twins who are a year and a half old.

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Speaker 1: And we were very much involved in taking care of

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Speaker 1: her and her one and a half year old twins

358
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,800
Speaker 1: in preparation for he gave birth. So every visit to

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Speaker 1: the O b g y N we did together. Um,

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00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,960
Speaker 1: every cigarette break in between those O b g y

361
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Speaker 1: N segments, we were out there with her. We did together,

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Speaker 1: nothing like being on the streets of Beverly Hills with

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Speaker 1: a nine month pregnant woman chugging up just ripping smokes

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Speaker 1: and looks on the on the on the faces of

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Speaker 1: the people walking by were fascinating and she loved every minute. Um.

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Speaker 1: But what happened was we were going to the grove.

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Speaker 1: I was spending the morning with the twins and her,

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Speaker 1: and we went to the grove and we had a

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Speaker 1: smoothie and she after the smoothie, she absolutely sore. To me,

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00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,399
Speaker 1: she was going into labor. She was like having unbelievable contractions,

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Speaker 1: or so she thought. And so it was like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, code red and I threw her in the

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Speaker 1: car and I was like driving to the hospital and um,

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Speaker 1: it's happening. It's happening. And we were looking for someone

375
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 1: to watch her twins while we were going to the hospital.

376
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Speaker 1: Like we were not prepared because the plan was a

377
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,920
Speaker 1: scheduled sea for a week later from that, her mother

378
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 1: had a ticket to come to Los Angeles to meet us.

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Speaker 1: That she would have her mom and also help with

380
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Speaker 1: her because it's emotional, and she would fly and she

381
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,359
Speaker 1: would stay for a week and then fly back to

382
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Speaker 1: Wisconsin with her, and all that was in the planned.

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Speaker 1: We did not plan for one week early. And so

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Speaker 1: there we were in the hospital and we called her

385
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Speaker 1: O B G y N and he was like, we

386
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 1: have to wait for that smoothie to pass through her,

387
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,199
Speaker 1: so we can't do this until tonight. But you know

388
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:58,680
Speaker 1: and I don't. But we out came a laza a

389
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:03,439
Speaker 1: week early, and we were not prepared for that, and

390
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Speaker 1: I was in the middle of shooting a pilot and

391
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 1: so I had to take a couple of days. Like

392
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 1: you had said, was the nursery So like you guys

393
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 1: weren't really prepared at home because they were being cautiously

394
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 1: optimistic because and the nursery wasn't painted, There wasn't like cribs.

395
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,399
Speaker 1: And she showed up for the last month. She was like,

396
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 1: are you guys insane? Do you guys not understand what

397
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 1: you need to do? You have a baby coming, where's

398
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 1: the crib? How come you even painted the baby's room?

399
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,400
Speaker 1: And we realized that it would help her to know

400
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 1: that you have done some preparation, so very quickly with

401
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,760
Speaker 1: her we kind of got that baby's room ready enough.

402
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 1: But we were doing to protect ourselves from potential, like

403
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: we just didn't want to go too far. And everybody

404
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 1: the first child she gave up for adoption or was

405
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 1: their siblings placed for adoption, we don't say gave up anymore?

406
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,719
Speaker 1: Thank you? Very true that that's something that not that,

407
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 1: but it's not a very it's negative. It's a negative.

408
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,239
Speaker 1: We get yeah, everyone says that, but really making make

409
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,639
Speaker 1: an adoption plan is what people prefer. People say, but

410
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 1: placed made an adoption choice. So those are all the

411
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 1: PC ways of saying it, and it's way better. But

412
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 1: the gave up thing put stigma on the birth mom

413
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,400
Speaker 1: and again I said it for years ago, and also

414
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 1: the kid, like my mom gave me up for adopt

415
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 1: it's just like not said anymore. So it's a good

416
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 1: thing to know even that people are using that terminology. Now,

417
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 1: did you ever feel at the beginning like oh shit,

418
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: what did we do? Yes? I felt that way. So

419
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 1: that's similar to when I BIRB Like I was like,

420
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: I was like, what have we done? Done? In shock?

421
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,680
Speaker 1: Because I feel like, I mean, this is a no district.

422
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 1: I just feel like you're sort of more maternal is

423
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: definitely mommy, like, you're more maternal you're the crier. You're

424
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: like the You're very like emotionally available. Your milk coms

425
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,119
Speaker 1: in a little bit like his Di Cooke shows up,

426
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 1: but my milk comes in for sure. In fact, I'm

427
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: just talking about it. I feel like a little bit,

428
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: but no, I'm definitely more maternal. I was definitely more

429
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 1: panicked up until like, I think we've made a big mistake,

430
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: like this is not gonna we can't do this, we

431
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: absolutely can't do this. And then the minute allizes was

432
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 1: put in my arms, I was like, oh my god,

433
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 1: you and and lucky for me, but sadly for him.

434
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 1: Don was very much in taking care of birth mom

435
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 1: mode for the next forty eight hours after the baby

436
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: was born, very aware that he did not want her

437
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 1: to feel like, okay, thanks by when she signs that waiver,

438
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,439
Speaker 1: are you for the release? Like that that makes the

439
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 1: whole thing final, like the moment of the actual signing.

440
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 1: The one thing that we talked to a social worker

441
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 1: about with her, which was really smart, was something that

442
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: not everyone does. But it's called an entrustment ceremony, and

443
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 1: you have to you have to just be the kind

444
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 1: of person that you have to ask the birth mom,

445
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 1: if that's something that they would like, and it has

446
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: to be something that you would And we talked to

447
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: her about what would you like to do in an

448
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 1: entrustment ceremony, and she talked about candles, and she talked

449
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 1: about handing the baby too. Oh, Danny, I love you. Sorry,

450
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: I haven't put about this, I haven't thought about this

451
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: and so long. Oh my god. Okay, she held in

452
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 1: the hospital. We were still in the hospital, and I

453
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: think a few other people were there, and we stood there.

454
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: Dan is crying. We're having an emotional moment. My kid

455
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 1: is just screaming in the other room as you can

456
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: hear him. And obviously it's so much duty right now.

457
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: Is we're having a very emotional experience here. I had

458
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 1: not thought about so long, and that maybe an entrustment ceremony.

459
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: And she paid together and she in her own way,

460
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: she wanted each of us to hold the candle, and

461
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: then each of us to hold Eliza. And it was

462
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: a moment where she was saying, I want this is

463
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: my moment to hand the baby over to you guys.

464
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: And we did that in the hospital and then Eliza pooped.

465
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: We'll never forget it. We all joke about it now,

466
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: let loose. Um. I don't remember doing one for Jonah

467
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: because the circumstances were different. Explain, this is your second,

468
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 1: this is biological brother. Correct. So two years later, our

469
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: birth mom got pregnant again, and we had already told

470
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: our adoption lawyer that we wanted to maybe have a

471
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: second and we talked about that a lot. That both

472
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: Don and I had siblings, Both of us had sisters

473
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: and that were very close to us, and we felt

474
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: that whether or not, even though we felt very complete

475
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 1: as a threesome with our baby, we felt like, for

476
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 1: the good of our kid, they will really benefit from

477
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: having a sibling. And oh my god, is that not

478
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: true of my two kids? I just can't imagine them not.

479
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: I can not imagine them without each other. Like it's now,

480
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: it's Unfathomi, does Jonah have the same mom and dad?

481
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: As it turns out? So turns out. So you got

482
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: a call from your adoption agent. We called the lawyers

483
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 1: and we're like, we want, we want to be put

484
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 1: on the list. And he said, just so you know,

485
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: it's a tough market. It was sort of like what

486
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: my talent agent was telling me at the same time.

487
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: It's gonna be tough to get a job, right now,

488
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: is it? You mean it's tougher to get another Wait,

489
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: if you've adopted one child, does that better or lesson

490
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: your chances of getting another one? You're lower on the list.

491
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: A lot of birth moms like to feel like there's

492
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 1: two things that we learned about birth moms. One thing

493
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: to learn about birth moms is that many times gay

494
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: gay mail couples are second in demand after straight couples.

495
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: Many times, because a single birth mom likes to feel

496
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: forever like you was the only mother. It is harder

497
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 1: for some, not all, but the number of moms to

498
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: want to see another woman. But that's not for all. Still,

499
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: the number one is like a conventional straight couple, but

500
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: second is a gay couple because it's a very common phenomenon.

501
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: It certainly was true with us, so then she but

502
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: some dr parents would be like, no, I want my

503
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: kid to feel specially only one and not compete. And

504
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: many wants to be the one to give the first

505
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: child to a family that hasn't had a baby, so too.

506
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: So he tells you it's going to take longer. But

507
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: around that time we were on the list and we

508
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: were getting zero calls like not even prospective. How old

509
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: was Eliza at this point too? And we Eliza had

510
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: a heart issue that had to be fixed, so we

511
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 1: had a reparation to a heart surgery and she had

512
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 1: a heart surgery earlier in that year. It was a

513
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: tough two thousand and six seven where it was an

514
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: incredibly difficult year. Again, I talked a lot in detail

515
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: about that and my god, it's fine, Thank God, she's fine.

516
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: It was tough to go through. My father was terminally

517
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: ill at the same time, and we knew that we

518
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: were having another child, Like it was a very intense

519
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: tells us. And that's how we got through it now

520
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 1: that I think about it. But right around that time,

521
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: we had heard that our birth mom was pregnant, and

522
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: both Done and I looked at each other were like,

523
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 1: it's only a matter of weeks before we get a

524
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: call we thought she did and those like once the entrustment, yes,

525
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: we we skipped this, let's go back to that. In

526
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: the first year. We did another thing, which is the

527
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: reason why we worked with an agency like like this

528
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: to del Mar Family Services is one of the things

529
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: they help you with is what's called if it's called

530
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: a something agreement I can't remember. Let's let's say it's

531
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: called the visitation agreement. It's not really called that, it's

532
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: it's contact agreement, and it has to do with what

533
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: you're agreeing to. It's not legally binding, but it is

534
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: an agreement made amongst the three of you as to

535
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: what your first choice would be as to how much

536
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: contact you're going to have with that child after the

537
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: baby is born, and before the baby is born, yes,

538
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: and the birth mom goes in in private and makes

539
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: a draft of what she wants, and then we separately

540
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: make a draft of what we want, and we see

541
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: how close they are. Afterwards, we don't want to do

542
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: it in They never want them done in front of

543
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 1: each because you don't want to impact each other, and

544
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: you compromise, and we came up with an agreement that

545
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: had to do with a once a year visit until

546
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: Eliza was three, and then after that not until the

547
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: child was old enough to ask for another one. So

548
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: it could have been until ted. So once a year

549
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: she we flew her to Los Angeles and we spend

550
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: time together, and again there wasn't a lot of bonding

551
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: with there was never really it was hard because it

552
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: was always a concern just not that that not that

553
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: anything would happen. There was no legal risk, but it

554
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: just was a very stressful time. It's emotional and stressful,

555
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: and it's you're reminded of all of it and and

556
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: and it's a wonderful thing, and it's also kind of

557
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: a sign thing. So it was very hard and we

558
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: had three of those visits. Ironically, by the third visit,

559
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: there was a second pregnancy happening and we were going

560
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: to adopt the brother, so, but she was married to

561
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: someone at the time, and so that man had to

562
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: also sign away his rights as the presumed father. There

563
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: is something called an alleged father, and there's something called

564
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: the presumed father. The presumed father is anyone married to

565
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: the birth mother. Alleged father is anyone else who could

566
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: potentially be the father. And in a legal adoption, you

567
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: need to get assigned release from the presumed father and

568
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: any alleged father's So, as it turns out, so the

569
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: presumed father was this guy was her husband, and he

570
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: was there with us, and they made the choice together,

571
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: and it was a little bit more complicated because it

572
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: was more people involved. We presumed right through the time

573
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: that they left Los Angeles that her husband was the father.

574
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: But deep in our souls knew we did not feel

575
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: because that was not Eliza's dad. That was it was

576
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: So did you do like a fraternity test? So when

577
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: they had left, I DNA tested the kids and found

578
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:38,959
Speaker 1: out that they were full siblings. WHOA. So when you

579
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: when Jonah was born, you didn't know that he and

580
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: Eliza had the same thought. It was a feeling we had,

581
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: but but it wasn't we did not. Now take me

582
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: through how you have discussed adoption with Eliza and Jonah.

583
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: I love this, like now that they're old enough to

584
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 1: really they understand. I mean they're thirteen and ten. And

585
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: how was it the same agreement that she came out

586
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: once a year for the first three years of Jada's

587
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: life we went to we did two years. Is that

588
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: way Eliza would be five and Jonah would be three,

589
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: So we went we went two more years in that

590
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: in that contact agreement and m and then after that

591
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: we didn't we there were no visits after unless the

592
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: kids ask for them. Is when you are going to

593
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: entertain the idea? Correct? And no at ten Eliza's not thirteen.

594
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: At ten Eliza did ask about when she was ever

595
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: going to see her birth mom again, and we were

596
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: always taught. We always always always told the story. I'm

597
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: just remembering this now. We always, even before she could speak,

598
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: we would tell the story of how um of how

599
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: she came to be you and don like agree what

600
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: that was or did you come up with it kind

601
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: of then and there and it felt right, or we

602
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: told the story and I'm I'm embarrassed to say now

603
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: that I can't remember the way we told it. We

604
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: told like a little fairy tale that there were two

605
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: guys who know it was too. Poppy and Daddy love

606
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: and we really really love Dan is daddy and is Poppy.

607
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: I know this because I hang out at your house.

608
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: That is that's that's Poppy and Daddy and we love

609
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: each other very very, very very much. But there's only

610
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: one thing in the world that we didn't have. It.

611
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: We wanted more than anything in the world than that

612
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: was a little baby guy. And then we met someone

613
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: and wed. We told the story of how she loved

614
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: her baby so much, but but and we wanted to

615
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: find the perfect perfect She knew that this baby was

616
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: meant for these two guys, and she chose them, and

617
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: it really is true. It's a decision made by three people.

618
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: It's not one made by one or by two, you know.

619
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: And we would tell the story of how she came

620
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: to be, and we told that over and over and

621
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: over and over and over again, and we were very

622
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: open about the adoption, but didn't really say it that much.

623
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: We didn't say the word adoption for a really long time.

624
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: And I wrote it. I wrote it. I don't remember

625
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: when it was, but I wrote a piece about the

626
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: A word. I think it's called the A word. And

627
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: it's just felt uncomfortable to you, weird, weird to I

628
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: had this weird feeling about not wanting to say the word,

629
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: and it was so important to say the word. There

630
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: was nothing wrong with that word. It's old baggage that

631
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: that those of us. There's old jokes that people used

632
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 1: to like gave up for adoption, Like it does sound

633
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: like negative in the way we are, like in the

634
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: old school way of thinking about adoption, or like the

635
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 1: ways kids used to teach each other in the schoolyard.

636
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: Can I have something? Um, we'd be like, yeah, tell

637
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: me he's adopted, Like that would be a way of

638
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 1: teasing something. Well, you know that's not the way people

639
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: teach each other anymore, nor would it fly because how

640
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: great you're adopted. Like, we're in a different world now,

641
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: certainly where my kids are. Um so so embracing the

642
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: word and starting to use it more in the house. Oh,

643
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: I remember what happened. We were walking by a pet

644
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 1: adoption day at a park and we're like, that word

645
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: means something, and we have to talk about what that

646
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: word means. Our family is going to adopt a bait,

647
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: a dog or a puppy. We need to talk about

648
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 1: what that word means and bring something into your family

649
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: and how is it different your adoption with a child

650
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: and with adoption of a pet. And we had to

651
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: start using the word and we and we did. But

652
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: it really wasn't until Eliza turned ten that she asked

653
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 1: very casually if she when she was going to see

654
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: her birth mom again. And at that point I said

655
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 1: to Donnego, I think we need to plan a trip

656
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 1: to Wisconsin. And we two and a half years ago

657
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 1: we flew to Wisconsin and it was the first time

658
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: we even really had the kids learn from the mouths

659
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 1: of their full siblings because the existing twins are also

660
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: full siblings, and they called We never used to refer

661
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 1: to those two kids, and we referred to them by

662
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: name all the time with our kids, but we never

663
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: referred to them as a brother or sister because to us,

664
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: your brother is your brother, the one that lives in

665
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: a house. We didn't want to use the same term.

666
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: So but the minute we arrived in Wisconsin, there was

667
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: a bonding of these four kids that you really cannot

668
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: you cannot deny, instantaneous and it was lovely. And I

669
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 1: remember driving through this court you feel scared, like when

670
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: they were going to see her again? Did did Eliza

671
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: or Jonah feel like? Were they excited? Were they nervous?

672
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: I mean to get on a plane and like, we're

673
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 1: gonna bet our birth mom. Was it like a thing?

674
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: You know? I don't. They didn't talk about it. They

675
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: were excited to to go visit. And when they got there,

676
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: they were all about their siblings. And now they still

677
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: talk about them more than they do about the birth mom.

678
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: But they were excited to see her. They were excited

679
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: to connect again. Um and now we do every two years.

680
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: Now we just go we we just take a family

681
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 1: trip every two years. You go. We've done it twice.

682
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 1: We've done but every other year now lately, and so

683
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: we did it last year and then we would probably

684
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,760
Speaker 1: go again next year. Um to do a quick thirty

685
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: six hour trip to Wisconsin amazing and see the whole family.

686
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: Are there any resources that you recommend for people that

687
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: are interested? I mean, besides Does This Baby Make Me

688
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: Look Straight? Which is an incredible book by Dan Bukatinski

689
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: so much um it sounds like this vista and looking

690
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: for other foster foster adopt and adoption. Now, there are

691
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: a lot of adoption websites online and I do look

692
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: forward to I do recommend people uh checking checking them

693
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: out just for even just for information and in a

694
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: more emotional mental way. Is there any advice you would

695
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: give to someone who's considering adoption? Good luck? Well, certainly

696
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: good luck, but but certainly the biggest piece of advice

697
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: I would give anybody. And I always talk about this

698
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: and I wrote a lot about this too. I think

699
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: people do not choose adoption often because of this, of

700
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: this disconnect. They feel that it's not going to feel

701
00:37:55,000 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 1: like mine, They won't feel like there is a desire

702
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 1: to have your baby genetically yours because it will feel different.

703
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: And I absolutely felt that way. I absolutely felt like

704
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: that would be the case until my baby, until my

705
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: daughter was in my arms, and I can't quite imagine

706
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: feeling more tied to my child. So I do encourage

707
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: people to certainly talk about that feeling with anybody. Don't

708
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: pretend you don't have it, and don't be afraid to

709
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,240
Speaker 1: say anything that is what you're feeling or fearing, because

710
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 1: those are real feelings and you can't deny them if

711
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 1: you do only want to a a daughter, like we were

712
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: hoping would have a daughter first, and we were lucky

713
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: that we had a daughter first, or we were hoping that.

714
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: You know, whatever your feelings are, they you're creating a

715
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 1: family that's forever, so you have to be honest with yourself.

716
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: I was very concerned about, like what it would feel like, Well,

717
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: I feel like she's mine. I feel like the baby

718
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: not smell like me. Well, I mean I've actually heard

719
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: that before. I was like, you realize that your kids

720
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: smell like you because of the home that they live

721
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: and exactly, But like it was just but it's really

722
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: more code I think for people feeling like well, I

723
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: feel like I'm holding someone else's baby. Absolutely not right.

724
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,479
Speaker 1: Is there something you wish you would have known before

725
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: you made the decision? Um, oh gosh, everything. Yeah, there's

726
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: a lot about the experience that you can't quite prepare for.

727
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: Part of it is if you're doing an open adoption,

728
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: is in fact the yes, I mean, here's the thing

729
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: is just basically over preparing for something you cannot prepare for.

730
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Have you said that before? I don't

731
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: think that that is exactly right. You are over preparing

732
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: for something you cannot possibly prepare for. Can you prepare

733
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: in the sense like you read a lot of parenting, researching,

734
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 1: assessing your feelings, you're trying to talk about it, you're talking,

735
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 1: you're reading books, and then, yess what, it never goes

736
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: the way you think. It's always different and better and

737
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 1: more challenging. Every parent will have advice for you, and

738
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: I will tell you this, and this is absolutely true.

739
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: Every parent will will claim that their way is the

740
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: right way because they're invested in their way, because it's

741
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: the way they're raising their kids. And nobody wants to

742
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: say to you, I am raising my kids wrong. So

743
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: in a way of affirming their own choices as parents,

744
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 1: it's important to them that you do what they do.

745
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 1: And what you have to realize is your way is

746
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: your way, and you have to do a way that

747
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: works for you and read lots of different books and

748
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: you pick and choose what works. From this also that

749
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: something might work one day and then it doesn't work.

750
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: The epist fucking it's fucking crazy because you watch someone

751
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: else and you're like, that's the kind of parent I

752
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: want to be, and then you see them actually have

753
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: a nervous breakdown in front of you, and you're like, well,

754
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: that clearly doesn't necessarily work for everybody. You have to

755
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: do what works. But the biggest thing I wish I

756
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: had done is talk about what kind of parents each

757
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: of us want to be with each other before we

758
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: became parents. I will never The only thing I can

759
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: tell you that I wish I had done more is

760
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 1: talked with my spouse about what our philosophies are, because

761
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: we only learned after we had our kids how absolutely

762
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 1: different we are, and a lot of people could relate

763
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: to that. And I think that finding that place of

764
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: compromise of how you want to approach the whole thing

765
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: is a good thing to do before the babies come

766
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: out because I'm still doing it. My kids a routeen

767
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: and eleven. Hey, at that time, they're still in your root,

768
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: so what at least eighteen in this day and age,

769
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: probably longer. But it's tough, my friends. But it was

770
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: very It's very rewarding, and it's the hardest, most rewarding

771
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: thing you'll ever do in your life, is what I'm feeling.

772
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: And I'm only one fucking year in Dan You are

773
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: you are? You are an incredible daddy. I have seen

774
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: you tell them that, and Don is an incredible poppy.

775
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: Well now they're not supposed to realize it right now,

776
00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 1: they're just supposed to hate you. You're doing the right.

777
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 1: My kids wake up and they're like, you're the reason

778
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: my life is miserable. I hear that all the time.

779
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: You did it. They're preteens. Um, this is so wonderful.

780
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on Katie's crib and I just

781
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: I have learned so much, actually, like I have, and

782
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: I read your book and I just which is hilarious

783
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,919
Speaker 1: and brilliant, beautiful, but I've learned a ton. And thank

784
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: you for thank you ing your time, thank you for

785
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 1: having me. I love you. I love you. UM, this

786
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: is so exciting you guys. We are here with David Boum,

787
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: who's from the law offices of David H. Boum. Well done, sir.

788
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: He's had a thirty five years of experience as an

789
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: adoption attorney. UM, can you tell us a little bit

790
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: about yourself, what you do and how did you find

791
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 1: your way into adoption law. Well, I've been practicing in

792
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: the field of adoption for just shy a forty years.

793
00:42:54,960 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: I started in in an office doing all sorts of

794
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: different law, real estate law, personal injury law, and the

795
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 1: office had clients who came to the attorney I was

796
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: working with and said, can you help us with a

797
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: stepparent adoption? Can you help us do this adult adoption?

798
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: And he didn't want to do them, but he had

799
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: a young associate in me, and I was a go

800
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 1: getter and anxious to do anything, so I took it

801
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: on in. In night nine, we adopted our child. And

802
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 1: I had been looking at finding a practice that was

803
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 1: a little more fulfilling because at the end of the day,

804
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: in the civil practice which I had been involved in,

805
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: you you did your job, you got paid, but there

806
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: wasn't a huge amount of personal satisfaction and building families

807
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: really seemed to fill the bill. So that's what I've

808
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: been doing now for all these years, is helping build families,

809
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: one step at a time. Blended families by stepparent adoption,

810
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 1: LGBT families with second parent adoptions, single pair and adoptions.

811
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 1: Adult adoptions. There are people who adults who adopt other adults,

812
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: and then independent and agency adoptions. Helping people find newborns

813
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: to adopt, screening the adopting family and the birth parents,

814
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: trying to make sure the match is good, facilitating that adoption,

815
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 1: dealing with the hospitals, the social workers, the state agencies

816
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: that are involved in approving an adoption plan and an

817
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: adoption placement, and then completing the adoptions and having the

818
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: pleasure of going to court and finalizing those adoptions, which

819
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: is the big payoff. How many do you think you've done?

820
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: Oh my god. In the thousands, we used to keep

821
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: books of pictures with families together, and after about six

822
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: or seven volumes, mercifully, the digital age descended upon us,

823
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: and so now we're able to digitize these things, and uh,

824
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,879
Speaker 1: but it is it's the children who I deal with

825
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: always are the same age they're always newborn. And to

826
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 1: then get a picture at the holidays from any number

827
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,240
Speaker 1: of my clients who send a picture of their children,

828
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: and my god, these children are sixteen years old, eighteen

829
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:16,320
Speaker 1: years old years old, they're married themselves, and they have children.

830
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: It's it's really you feel at the end of the

831
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 1: day as a lawyer that you actually made a difference. Oh,

832
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: you make me cry. Usually it's the Usually it's the

833
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: guest that cries on Katie's cry. I mean, I cried too,

834
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 1: But this one, this is this is a good morning.

835
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: The only other thing I would say about that is

836
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: that you know, at the end of the day, I

837
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: approach every adoption as though it was my own, because

838
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: when my wife and I went through the adoption experience,

839
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: we definitely discerned things we liked and things we didn't.

840
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: And we approach our clientele with this notion that you

841
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 1: come to us for advice, and I want to give

842
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 1: you the best advice, and I want to guide you

843
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: along the way. If clients will take my advice and

844
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: will follow my instructions, our success rate is about But

845
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: there are clients who just sort of pay the advice

846
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: lip service and they want to do it their way,

847
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: and they may not have the same quality of results.

848
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 1: Sometimes they do. I don't need to take all the

849
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 1: credit for it, but I have to tell you that

850
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: when you slog through this stuff for several months with

851
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: a potential birth mom or with the placement, and then

852
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: to go to court and have the judge say congratulations,

853
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: it's a multi kleenex event almost every single time. And

854
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: now we're gonna greg it. Okay, So what are the

855
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,919
Speaker 1: different means of adoption? Can you explain? I mean where

856
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: we've been talking about this before, but public or private,

857
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: agency and dependent open, closed, domestic international. You said you

858
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: deal mostly with newborn now, but in your firm, are

859
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: there people who deal like you were saying, with adult

860
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: or I'm a solo practitioner. Most adoption attorneys are solo

861
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: practitioners because people come to hire us because they believe

862
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: we have the mojo or the expertise to do it.

863
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 1: But let's talk about the adoptions. It's fairly simple. I

864
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: don't deal with international adoption. It's a separate skill set,

865
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: and people who want to go and do an international

866
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: adoption owe it to themselves to do the research and

867
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: find attorneys who do international adoption specifically, it's quite different.

868
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: It's sort of the difference between going to a cardiologist

869
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: and a dentist. They both may be doctors, but the

870
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: expertise and skill sets are completely different. So in my field,

871
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: we either have agency adoption where the birth mother relinquishes

872
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: the baby to the agency and the agency then places

873
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: the child for adoption with the adoptive family, or we

874
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: have independent adoption and independent adoption the birth mother actually

875
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: places a child directly with the parents and the paperwork

876
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: that is signed is a little more direct. Why do

877
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 1: people go to agency adoptions? It It isn't that the

878
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 1: aby goes literally to the agency and then the agency

879
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: takes it out of a bassineten hands it to the parents.

880
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: Is that the agency will provide home study services and

881
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 1: social services and support services all at one location, whereas

882
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: an independent adoption we bring in the social worker, and

883
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: we bring in the therapist or the corn the package deal.

884
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: Do you find that you have huge amounts of both

885
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 1: or do most people use an agency right now? It's

886
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: it's it is really a cost driven. Independent adoption tends

887
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: to be cheaper than agency adoption because the agency's charge

888
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: for services which you may not need. There are some

889
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 1: wonderful agencies out there, and they offer classes in parenting

890
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 1: and and they offer classes and how to talk to

891
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: your teenager about being adopted. And most of my clients

892
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: went faced with that as a possible road to travel. Say,

893
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:00,959
Speaker 1: would you mind terribly for we got the baby first

894
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: before we started talking talking about what we're supposed to

895
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 1: del I always say to the clients, make a financial determination.

896
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 1: If the services are essentially the same, look at what

897
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,479
Speaker 1: is most fiscally responsible for you, because no one wants

898
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 1: to end up being bankrupt, right and you're about to

899
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: have a baby, which is super expensive. So, like you know,

900
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 1: it would be wonderful if some of your dough went

901
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: to the baby once you got him or her. Well,

902
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: it has to go to the diapers, that has to

903
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 1: go to formula. There there are relatively few adoptive parents

904
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: who actually breastfeed. There are some because there is this

905
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: technique available where you can do that, but it's very rare.

906
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 1: Oh yes, so there are there are means that a

907
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 1: woman can contact her gynecologist and get onto some program

908
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: to be able to lactate and then breastfeed a child,

909
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: but most end up paying for formula and formula. Baby

910
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 1: ain't cheap? No, um, can you hear my baby right now?

911
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: It's his nap time, everybody? Albi, Adam is on My husband,

912
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: Adam is on Albi duty this morning while I talk

913
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: to you, and Albi is obviously not wanting to go

914
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: down for his nap. So can you walk us through, like,

915
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: walk us through what an adoption process looks like. I mean,

916
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: I know that's very big and and sort of a

917
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: large topic. That's a manageable question. People come to you first.

918
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 1: Ideally a person is going to come to an attorney

919
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, adoption is a

920
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: legal process. Tell me with the attorney and decide on

921
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: a game plan. Are we going to try to do

922
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: an independent adoption or an agency adoption? Are and what

923
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 1: are we looking for in terms of birth parents, racial issues,

924
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: employment issues, age, health, um, physical attributes, intellectual attributes. So

925
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 1: we define what we're looking for, and most importantly, we

926
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: have to define budget. What is it going to likely cost?

927
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: What are the parameters that we have to work with

928
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: in terms of money, because not every adoptive parent is

929
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: able to spend endless amounts of money adopting, and some

930
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 1: work on a budget, So you determine the budget, and

931
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: then the next step is we make sure that the

932
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: adoptive parents will be able to adopt. UH. So, if

933
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: you have a past criminal record, no matter how minor

934
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: it is, we need to know about it in advance

935
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: so we can make sure that we can deal with

936
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: it appropriately, and you understand what's involved with that. Once

937
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 1: you find a birth mom, then we start the outreach

938
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,399
Speaker 1: to look for a birth mom and advertising Dear birth Mother,

939
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 1: letters portfolio. What is that? Well, advertising, Maybe you're not

940
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 1: going to find it here in California because it's forbidden

941
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 1: by law to or a newspaper ads advertising to adopt

942
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: a baby. But outside of the state, yes it is,

943
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,760
Speaker 1: so it might be an ad in the adoption section.

944
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 1: Believe that or not in newspapers out of state, something

945
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 1: along the lines of UH Southern California couple urins to

946
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: adopt newborn. Expense is paid as permitted, legal and confidential.

947
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: We promise your child a future of UH happiness, love

948
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: and security. Call tanyan Bill toll free any time, or

949
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: our attorney Dave at such and such number. Wow. So

950
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: um so, after that, make contact with a birth mom.

951
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: There's paperwork that's exchanged back and forth. Birth mom is

952
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: advised by a social worker and LCSW and counseled esther

953
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: her rights and evaluated to make sure license clinical social

954
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 1: worker UH. And then if everyone's an agreement and they

955
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 1: meet and they like one another and they want to proceed,

956
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: the hospitals notified, the doctors notified. When the baby is

957
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: born UH, and it's ready for discharge from the hospital,

958
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 1: the adoptive pearance are there to receive the baby. Then

959
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 1: the legal paperwork has begun in the court, and ultimately

960
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: the Department of Children and Family Services in California or

961
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: a private adoption agency will complete the post birth and

962
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: post placement supervision of the case, and they have meetings

963
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 1: and make sure everything is in order. They present a

964
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: final report to the court saying we recommend that the

965
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: adoption be approved, and then you have that celebratory final

966
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: hearing with the judge where the judge confirms and approves

967
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:21,280
Speaker 1: the report, grants the adoption changes. The child's parents already

968
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 1: have the baby before that happens, Yes, does Sometimes that

969
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: doesn't get finished. Well, we're much better now in California

970
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 1: than we were. Many states have a very short change

971
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,840
Speaker 1: of mind period. California's at thirty days, some have it

972
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 1: as as little as forty eight hours. But uh, if

973
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 1: you get to that stage, most most of the time

974
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: is really very still they do. We have every state

975
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: in the United States is quite independent, and each one

976
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 1: believes they have the best adoption laws and none of

977
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,439
Speaker 1: the other adoption laws are any good in any other state.

978
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 1: And this is the key element if if if anybody

979
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: gets anything out of the time I'm spending with you,

980
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,760
Speaker 1: it is that you must do your homework and start

981
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: with a team of people who know the law and

982
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: know enough to ask questions when they don't know the

983
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 1: law about another state. Because many of the adoptions that

984
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 1: occur involve a birth parent in one state and adopted

985
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: parents here where you are in a different state. And

986
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: if you don't know those laws and you start spending

987
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: money on that birth mother and the state where the

988
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: birth mother is says you may not do that, you

989
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: could end up screwing up your own adoption and getting

990
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 1: into trouble with the authorities for it. In California, if

991
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 1: you pay improper expenses to a birth mother as a

992
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: doctor parents, it's a felony, but it's only a misdemeanor

993
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,879
Speaker 1: for the birth mother to take the money. So it's

994
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 1: important to get good quality people. So how do you

995
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 1: know how do you not mess that up? It really

996
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 1: just depends on the lawyer you get it does that.

997
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 1: They really have to be educated and skilled and know

998
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: all those laws. All you have to know is how

999
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: to dial a telephone. That's all a lawyer really has

1000
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: to know in that regard. Because I go and when

1001
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 1: a person comes into me and they say we we

1002
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 1: we are working with them, and we find a birth

1003
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: mother in Rhode Island. I don't know the law in

1004
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,879
Speaker 1: Rhode Island. But I call a colleague of mine who

1005
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 1: I trust from the American Academy of Adoption Attorneys, and

1006
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,240
Speaker 1: I say, you're in Rhode Island. I have a adopted

1007
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: parent here in California. What do I need to know

1008
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 1: so that we don't run a foul of your laws.

1009
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: Then we have the discussion that I'm able to go

1010
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: to the client and say if we can work with

1011
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: her in Rhode Island. And here's the reason why. The

1012
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: success rank or the success rate on adoptions in the

1013
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 1: United States is about nine of adoption matches are successfully concluded.

1014
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,439
Speaker 1: But there are those ten percent that are not, and

1015
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: it's devastating for people. It is no reassurance to an

1016
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: adoptive family to say, well, of the cases go fine

1017
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 1: if you're in that, yeah, that's all. That's all I

1018
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: heard was in my office, we we average success. But

1019
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: that's just because I am very, very conservative about things,

1020
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 1: and I insist on really good communication with clients. Clients

1021
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: need to share with the attorney whenever their conversations with

1022
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 1: the birth parents that they may have outside of the

1023
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: earshot of the attorney, they need to share with the

1024
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: attorney what is said, because that's where you discern inconsistencies.

1025
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,720
Speaker 1: And as soon as you discern an inconsistency in the story,

1026
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: are the things the birth mother is telling you, Oh,

1027
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: I've never been pregnant, but on her form she says

1028
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 1: she's been pregnant twice and she's had two abortions. If

1029
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: they're lying about the small stuff, the odds are good,

1030
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: they're going to be lying about the big stuff, and

1031
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: you want to have really good communication with your attorney.

1032
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 1: Wonderful tip. Do you find it there's difference that have

1033
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:54,720
Speaker 1: you worked with single parents versus married couple, same sex couples,

1034
00:56:54,760 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: Like what is the are their differences are there? Well,

1035
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: I'll say this, there are some birth parents who only

1036
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 1: want a big Osmond or King Sisters family. I mean,

1037
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: they want hundreds and hundreds of family members for their

1038
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: child to go into this big, broad, embracing sort of

1039
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: Italian thirty people at the table families. There are others

1040
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 1: who just want their child to be the prince or

1041
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 1: princess in the home. They want the child to be

1042
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: the first, the last, and the only child in the home.

1043
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 1: U there are some who say it doesn't matter, and

1044
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: there are some who bring their prejudices to the picture.

1045
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 1: I've had single women clients who the birth mothers say, oh,

1046
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 1: she must be a lesbian because she's single. And I

1047
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: have to remind the birth mothers of that old glorious

1048
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 1: Steinhum quote that a woman needs a man like a

1049
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: fish needs a bicycle. Uh, you know, and and and

1050
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 1: and say them, don't assume that, because there are plenty

1051
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 1: of women who choose deliberately not to be married, and

1052
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 1: that they wish to raise single parents raised children as

1053
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: single parents. So the birth mothers come in with their

1054
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: own prejudices. Similarly, adoptive parents come in with their own prejudices.

1055
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: I've had adopted parents match with birth moms based on

1056
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: cone heat. That's the center of the heat at the

1057
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: center of a kiln when you're firing pottery. I had

1058
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 1: a birth mom who came in the adoptive family. Sheep

1059
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: was interested in were people who were saramusis, and they

1060
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 1: spent the better part of the hour we spent together

1061
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: in my conference room talking about the variation of cone

1062
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 1: heat in kilns. I've had birth mothers select adoptive parents

1063
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 1: because the birth mother comes into my office wearing a

1064
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,959
Speaker 1: cool lot outfit and the picture of the adoptive parent

1065
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: has the identical outfit, berkan stock, sandals, astrological signs, what not,

1066
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: like the same sports. It's just it's so it's completely

1067
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 1: like random, random, and like just I don't know, if

1068
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 1: you believe in fate or whatever that is. It's be shared,

1069
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: which we would completely say, but yes, it's but shared.

1070
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 1: It's like that unknowing, like that you can't put a

1071
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 1: word to it. It just it just happened. It just happened, well, right,

1072
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: And so I'm always saying to clients you must be

1073
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 1: honest with your attorney, but more importantly, you must also

1074
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 1: be honest with yourself, because if you try to make

1075
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 1: yourself into the perfect attractive adoptive parent, it's a charade

1076
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: that's impossible. They take because it could come down to

1077
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: cool well yeah, or kill me, kill me. How long

1078
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 1: does the adoption process take from start to finish after

1079
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: the birth of the child. You're looking at six to

1080
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: eight months if everybody is doing what they're supposed to

1081
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: be doing in a timely manner, if you're taught, and

1082
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 1: that's in people's What about from start to finish? I'm

1083
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 1: talking like when they come in, it's usually nine months

1084
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 1: to two years. It's usually nine months to two years. Uh.

1085
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 1: But but sometimes I had a case fairly early on

1086
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 1: in my career where the adopted family came in and

1087
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 1: met with me on an initial consultation in the morning,

1088
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 1: and in the afternoon I got a call from the

1089
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: hospital and they said, do you have a family, and

1090
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 1: this is exactly what we're looking for, And it was

1091
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 1: this family And I called him up on the phone

1092
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 1: and the wife answered the phone and I said, Liz,

1093
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 1: are you interested in adopting a baby boy? Here are

1094
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 1: the statistics. The child was just born and has at

1095
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 1: such and such hospital here in the San Fernando Valley

1096
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 1: and I heard a thud and the floor and then

1097
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: I heard this man's voice. It was clearly her husband,

1098
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 1: and he says, who is this? I said, it's Dave

1099
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: Bomb calling. He said, what did you say to my wife?

1100
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: I said, I just told her I just heard about

1101
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 1: an adoption situation. The hospitals waiting to know whether you

1102
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 1: would like to come get a baby. Boy. He said,

1103
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: I'll revive for and will be down there in thirty minutes,

1104
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 1: So it can it can happen that quickly. You know,

1105
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,479
Speaker 1: you have to be prepared. I have a colleague who says,

1106
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 1: are you ready for your star moment? He says, you

1107
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 1: have to be willing to say to me, if you

1108
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 1: call me tonight, I will get to the hospital and

1109
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 1: be there for the baby. If you're not ready, if

1110
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 1: you still need to go through therapy about your infertility

1111
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: or things like that, then it's not time to start

1112
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 1: this process. Wow, that's a great piece of advice. So really,

1113
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 1: parents should come and be do all the work for

1114
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 1: working with you or an adoption attorney. If they're like,

1115
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: I'm ready to I would like to have a baby

1116
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 1: like as soon as possible. Well, true, because what happens

1117
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 1: is when I sit across the desk from clients who

1118
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 1: come in and meet with me, they just see my

1119
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 1: two eyes, but I see their four eyes, and I

1120
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 1: can see and I have seen at times in consultations

1121
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 1: with clients the wife is waxing poetic about the thrills

1122
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 1: of parenthood and the husband is literally rolling his eyes

1123
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 1: and and giving all the facial expressions that say I'm

1124
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 1: not there yet. And at the end of those consultations,

1125
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 1: I will say to the clients, you know, I don't

1126
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 1: think I can be of help to you, because I

1127
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 1: think the two of you probably need to do some

1128
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 1: talking with one another, because we all have to be

1129
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 1: on the same page. You know, as a parent that

1130
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 1: parenting is a tag team event, and so is adopting.

1131
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:35,439
Speaker 1: It is also a tag team event. Sometimes when one

1132
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 1: parent is feeling, oh, is this ever gonna happen, the

1133
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: other is there to say, of course it's going to happen.

1134
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 1: This is the next step we're going to do. And

1135
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 1: when they're not on the same page and one is

1136
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 1: rowing across the pond and the other is drilling holes

1137
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 1: in the back of the boat, it's not a good situation.

1138
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 1: A single adoption in person. Who do they go to? Family?

1139
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 1: Ideally they will the clients that I have from the

1140
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 1: l g PT can anity or the single parents who

1141
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 1: just want to be single parents usually have their own family.

1142
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 1: It may not be blood family, yes, but they have

1143
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 1: their support systems that's supporting them through this whole thing.

1144
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 1: Do you find that they bring a friend to Rarely?

1145
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 1: It's it's we've come a long way, and adoption is

1146
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 1: much more out there and open than it was. But

1147
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 1: none of us walk around and introduce our children as oh,

1148
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 1: this is my adopted son or this is my adopted daughter.

1149
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 1: These are just my children. And so I had such

1150
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:32,439
Speaker 1: an old school way. I mean when we were talking

1151
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 1: to Dan Bukatinsky and I had such a I said, oh,

1152
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,040
Speaker 1: given up for adoption and he said, oh, we don't

1153
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 1: say given up, we say placed. And I was like,

1154
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, like being a child in the eighties

1155
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 1: like that, that's what we said, Oh you're given up

1156
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 1: for adoption or that child was getting you know, that's

1157
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 1: like how you phrase it, and it's not you're a

1158
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 1: chosen child. That's another one that well, why didn't my

1159
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 1: mother choose to keep me? It's the ling goes all different,

1160
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 1: now all different. What would you say is advice for

1161
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 1: adoptive parents if they're going to hire an attorney, like,

1162
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: what is there? Is there a list of questions or

1163
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 1: something or or is it just a gut feeling that

1164
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 1: this is the person I want to go through? This

1165
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 1: can be very challenging and long process. Well, my advice

1166
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 1: would be there are two resources that I think are invaluable.

1167
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 1: The first is the American Academy of Adoption Attorneys, because

1168
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:27,360
Speaker 1: that's nationwide and they have the pre eminent adoption attorneys

1169
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 1: in the United States. The entry requirements and the legal

1170
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 1: ethics requirements to maintain fellowship in those are in that

1171
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:39,200
Speaker 1: organization are very very significant. So you start with a

1172
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 1: group of people who are already well educated, well informed,

1173
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 1: and well connected to help you adopt. The second resource

1174
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 1: here in California is the Academy of California Adoption Lawyers.

1175
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 1: I served as president of that Academy for sixteen years.

1176
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 1: It was that I was such a great president. It

1177
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 1: was more that no one else wanted to do it.

1178
01:04:57,040 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: But we have in our academy. I think it's now

1179
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 1: about party two of the pre eminent adoption and family

1180
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:05,440
Speaker 1: formation attorneys in the unit in the state of California.

1181
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 1: We teach other attorneys how to do adoption law. We

1182
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 1: meet and we have continuing education programs. We we author articles,

1183
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 1: we lecture, and we have standards again for admission two

1184
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 1: D adoptions at a minimum, and you have to have

1185
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 1: Our ethical standards are higher than the state bar imposes

1186
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:29,480
Speaker 1: upon lawyers practicing in California, and we have very rigorous

1187
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 1: continuing education requirements. So you start with that. Then you

1188
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:35,800
Speaker 1: ask the questions that you want to ask, and then

1189
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 1: don't be shy about it. If you only want to

1190
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: adopt a Hispanic child, say I only want to adopt

1191
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:42,960
Speaker 1: Hispanic child, is that problem? If you want to be

1192
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 1: gender specific, ask the questions you feel like asking. But

1193
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, you hit the nail

1194
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 1: on the head, Katie, it's you have to trust your gut.

1195
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 1: If you sit down with the attorney and all the

1196
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:57,960
Speaker 1: diplomas look magnificent and the brochures look lovely, and you

1197
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 1: don't feel comfortable, all you need to trust your gut

1198
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:06,480
Speaker 1: with that because it's it is a partnership vulnerable for

1199
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 1: a long period of time, and if you're gonna always worry,

1200
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. If I call the attorney, he's going

1201
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:13,760
Speaker 1: to charge. He charges by the hour, and many of

1202
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:15,960
Speaker 1: us don't we charge on a flat fee basis. He

1203
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 1: charges by the hour. It's going to cost me money

1204
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:19,840
Speaker 1: every time I ask a question. Then you're gonna feel

1205
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: I don't maybe I shouldn't ask the question, and you're

1206
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 1: depriving yourself as something that maybe you really need to

1207
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 1: have the answer to. And it's also true with regard

1208
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:32,600
Speaker 1: to the adopted adoption situation. I had a client who

1209
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:38,080
Speaker 1: we presented an absolutely magnificent birth mother too, absolutely magnificent,

1210
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 1: And the client said to me, that's not my baby.

1211
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:45,720
Speaker 1: And I hung up the phone and I thought to myself,

1212
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:49,600
Speaker 1: you gotta be kidding me. If you went uh and

1213
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 1: you programmed the perfect birth mother academics, physical health, emotional

1214
01:06:56,320 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 1: well being, stability, intellectual curiosity, the quality of her pregnancy,

1215
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 1: her do date, her lack of expenses, I couldn't imagine

1216
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 1: anyone what happened would turn the child down. Well, we

1217
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 1: had no trouble matching that birth mother with another family. Now, ultimately,

1218
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 1: this client went on to adopt, and they invited my

1219
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:19,440
Speaker 1: wife and me to a party at their home to

1220
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:22,280
Speaker 1: celebrate the arrival of the child. And we walked through

1221
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 1: the door and the wife came out and said to me,

1222
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 1: it's so good you're here. You're like family to us.

1223
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 1: I mean, we wouldn't have a family were enough for you.

1224
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:33,520
Speaker 1: And I turned her and I said, looking back at

1225
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:37,439
Speaker 1: the situation that you turned down, do you feel any

1226
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 1: differently now about that than you did then? And she said, no,

1227
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 1: that was not my child. This child that I have

1228
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:48,160
Speaker 1: here is that it was the child for me. Wow.

1229
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 1: I still when I think of adoption. I don't know

1230
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:57,240
Speaker 1: if it's because of movies or something, but you still

1231
01:07:57,240 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 1: think of orphanages. Did it exist anymore? Really? They don't.

1232
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 1: They don't know. I mean maybe in outside of the US,

1233
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:10,680
Speaker 1: and they exist in the world of Charles Dickens. They

1234
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:13,600
Speaker 1: exist outside of the United States and in the musical Hamilton's.

1235
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:19,840
Speaker 1: But with those with those relatively few exceptions, they don't. Well,

1236
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:23,680
Speaker 1: you think about it. Vista del Mar, which one of

1237
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:28,639
Speaker 1: your guests used, was originally called the Jewish Orphans Home,

1238
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 1: and when it was first formed back I think it

1239
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:37,920
Speaker 1: was in theties. It took in Jewish orphans, But we

1240
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 1: don't have that anymore. Even the adoption agencies really are

1241
01:08:42,960 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 1: not orphanages like the child is there and you can

1242
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 1: come get a child. It doesn't work that way. Wow, Well,

1243
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 1: that's that's good. What are the typical costs? This is

1244
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:55,840
Speaker 1: where I really want to get into, Like I'm sure

1245
01:08:55,920 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 1: they vary. Okay, there's the carte version for this is

1246
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:04,720
Speaker 1: the agency version. But what is in your fourty years experience,

1247
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,320
Speaker 1: and obviously money has also changed in the last forty

1248
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 1: years of what things cost at this day and age,

1249
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:12,799
Speaker 1: what is the least amount and what is the most amount.

1250
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 1: I think that what you have to figure realistically is

1251
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:18,919
Speaker 1: the lowest amount is going to be in the vicinity

1252
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:22,280
Speaker 1: of about ten thousand dollars. Because if you're here in

1253
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:24,400
Speaker 1: California and you have to do a home study under

1254
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:29,599
Speaker 1: California law, the state mandates a fee of so right there,

1255
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:33,519
Speaker 1: and that's for someone to come in and and study

1256
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:36,760
Speaker 1: your house to make sure that you are right, that

1257
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 1: you They have all these things that they look at

1258
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 1: to make sure that your home is going to be

1259
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 1: a safe place right for me. But it's it's really

1260
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:46,719
Speaker 1: it's also and perhaps more importantly to study you. Because

1261
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:49,439
Speaker 1: I've had clients who have adopted who have shared a

1262
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:52,400
Speaker 1: studio apartment and that's what they've had to raise a

1263
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:55,400
Speaker 1: child in. You don't have to have a certain level

1264
01:09:55,439 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 1: of income to be able to adopt. You just have

1265
01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:02,560
Speaker 1: to have a safe living environment. And for young couples,

1266
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:07,639
Speaker 1: a studio apartment is just fine. Okay. But to answer

1267
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 1: your question, in my office right now, we are quoting

1268
01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 1: people a range of eighteen thousand, five hundred dollars to

1269
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:20,920
Speaker 1: complete for adoption for everything except outreach, because we don't

1270
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:23,599
Speaker 1: know how much money we're going to be spending running

1271
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 1: newspaper ads or being on the internet to find adoptable children.

1272
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:31,000
Speaker 1: When you go over the hill and you go into

1273
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:34,760
Speaker 1: more expensive areas like Beverly Hills, for example, or you

1274
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:38,320
Speaker 1: go to the East Coast to places like Philadelphia, the

1275
01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:42,880
Speaker 1: cost of adoption goes way up because the attorneys pay

1276
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:47,120
Speaker 1: higher amounts for rent and because the market will bear it.

1277
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:51,080
Speaker 1: So it is not uncommon for people to have adoptions

1278
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:56,080
Speaker 1: which run ten thousand dollars to fifty fifty five thousand dollars.

1279
01:10:56,680 --> 01:11:00,280
Speaker 1: In California, we have laws that govern what hand and

1280
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 1: cannot be paid for birth mothers. They have to be

1281
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:06,720
Speaker 1: medical or living related expenses of a birth mother during

1282
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:10,519
Speaker 1: the period of her confinement or her pregnancy, and so

1283
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:13,639
Speaker 1: that brings some control over it. But there are other

1284
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 1: states where you can pay for virtually everything. So when

1285
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: we are talking with potential birth parents on behalf of

1286
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:22,560
Speaker 1: adoptive parents, one of the things that we're doing is

1287
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 1: we're asking them to tell us what their financial needs

1288
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:27,040
Speaker 1: are so we can make sure that you don't go

1289
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:33,320
Speaker 1: into Chapter eleven proceedings trying to adopt a child. But again,

1290
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 1: I'm providing you with some resources for places where adopted

1291
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:42,080
Speaker 1: families can get some financing to assist them with adoption.

1292
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 1: They have, it does, and remarkably so in this present

1293
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:52,439
Speaker 1: environment politically. The one thing that the White House and

1294
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:56,920
Speaker 1: Congress has not disturbed, thank God for it is the

1295
01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 1: adoption Tax Credit, which is a nash Sational adoption tax credit,

1296
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 1: and it is over fourteen thousand dollars of acceptable adoption

1297
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:10,160
Speaker 1: expenses which come off of your tax liability dollar for dollar,

1298
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 1: and that is a major relief because if you get

1299
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:16,280
Speaker 1: a birth mother who's due in two or three months,

1300
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:19,360
Speaker 1: she's living at home, she doesn't have a lot of expenses,

1301
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:22,800
Speaker 1: she has health insurance through her parents, your adoption is

1302
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 1: going to run more in the ten thousand to eighteen

1303
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:28,559
Speaker 1: thousand dollar range, including that home study and any co

1304
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:32,400
Speaker 1: pays for the hospital and things like that. And with

1305
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:34,960
Speaker 1: that tax credit, you could actually do an adoption that

1306
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:36,960
Speaker 1: may not cost you more than four or five thousand

1307
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:40,680
Speaker 1: dollars out of your pocket ultimately. And the last thing

1308
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 1: to say about that is that if you suffer the

1309
01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:46,559
Speaker 1: misfortune of having an adoption go south and fail on you,

1310
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:50,200
Speaker 1: that adoption tax credit is available to you as well.

1311
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:53,920
Speaker 1: Oh thank god, because well the money, you know, the

1312
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:58,320
Speaker 1: money comes back. But really the place that's irreparably harmed

1313
01:12:58,360 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 1: is the trust level. Know you, you put your trust

1314
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 1: in the birth parent and you hope they'll follow through,

1315
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:09,480
Speaker 1: and then when they say I've changed my mind, Um,

1316
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:11,479
Speaker 1: you don't know that you'll ever be able to trust

1317
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:13,400
Speaker 1: a woman who says I'll place my child for adoption

1318
01:13:13,439 --> 01:13:15,240
Speaker 1: with you again. And you have to sort of pick

1319
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 1: yourself up and if at least you can regroup in

1320
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:21,599
Speaker 1: the money department, you have a fighting chance to try again.

1321
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:27,200
Speaker 1: Um you just mentioned I mean that's the biggest hurdle, Um,

1322
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:30,599
Speaker 1: I think is it's not working out in the end.

1323
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 1: Are there other hurdles that you like, you know, may

1324
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:39,800
Speaker 1: warn well. I think that I think it's about I

1325
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:42,800
Speaker 1: think it sounds a lot like your support system, your relationship.

1326
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:44,840
Speaker 1: Like you said, when one person is ruling holes and

1327
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:50,439
Speaker 1: one person's you know, but that when the going gets

1328
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 1: tough or something and people get discouraged, it's like you

1329
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:56,080
Speaker 1: have people around you to pick you up. It's something's

1330
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:58,439
Speaker 1: taking too long, or the birth mother doesn't work out

1331
01:13:58,439 --> 01:14:00,400
Speaker 1: and you have to start all over again, which I'm

1332
01:14:00,439 --> 01:14:03,160
Speaker 1: sure happens in the middle of the process. Catch sometimes

1333
01:14:03,160 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 1: it happens at the very end. I early on in

1334
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:11,519
Speaker 1: my career had a birth mom who was morbidly obese

1335
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 1: and an adoptive family of a dentist at his spouse,

1336
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:19,160
Speaker 1: and they were a lovely couple, and the birth mom

1337
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:22,920
Speaker 1: was a really good person. She was just morbidly obese.

1338
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 1: In an effort to make sure she got the best

1339
01:14:25,160 --> 01:14:28,400
Speaker 1: possible medical care, we hooked her up with a doctor

1340
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:31,879
Speaker 1: who was a professor of obstetrics at a major teaching

1341
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:36,360
Speaker 1: university hospital so that she could get the extra level

1342
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:40,920
Speaker 1: of care for someone with her weight. Nonetheless, she did

1343
01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:43,599
Speaker 1: not pay any attention to the the fact when she stopped

1344
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 1: feeling the baby move about three or four weeks before

1345
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 1: the due date, and she didn't report anything to the doctor.

1346
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:51,840
Speaker 1: So when the doctor when the baby was born, the

1347
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 1: baby had insufficient brain development, and the adoptive family had

1348
01:14:56,920 --> 01:14:58,559
Speaker 1: to make the choice that they were not going to

1349
01:14:58,600 --> 01:15:01,880
Speaker 1: proceed with the adoption because of that. The young woman

1350
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:05,560
Speaker 1: took the baby and and has raised the baby herself.

1351
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:09,080
Speaker 1: But that's that can happen. And you can get birth

1352
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:12,519
Speaker 1: mothers who go to hospitals because they don't have the

1353
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:15,200
Speaker 1: guidance of an attorney to say this is not the

1354
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:18,920
Speaker 1: hospital for you, where the hospital nurses have an agenda

1355
01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:21,800
Speaker 1: and they actually will say to the birth mother, how

1356
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:25,880
Speaker 1: can you do this? How can you place give away

1357
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:28,720
Speaker 1: your baby if you shouldn't be doing that. You have

1358
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:31,240
Speaker 1: a hard time, lots of people have a hard time.

1359
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:35,080
Speaker 1: Suck it up, get over it. And they will talk

1360
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:37,559
Speaker 1: the birth mother out of the placement. Oh my god,

1361
01:15:37,600 --> 01:15:40,080
Speaker 1: how do you how DoD I mean that is? And

1362
01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 1: you know what happens. The adoptive family is upset. They

1363
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 1: don't go back and notify the director at the hospital

1364
01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:49,120
Speaker 1: that this is going on. It is an unreported assault

1365
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:52,920
Speaker 1: on the birth mother. When our daughter's birth mother gave birth.

1366
01:15:53,439 --> 01:15:56,559
Speaker 1: We were not told about it until after the baby

1367
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 1: was born. But our attorney, since I didn't handle my

1368
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:03,439
Speaker 1: own adopt called us and said a nurse came into

1369
01:16:03,479 --> 01:16:07,200
Speaker 1: the room and said to your birth mother, you shouldn't

1370
01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:10,080
Speaker 1: be doing this, and the birth mother said, I will

1371
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:12,200
Speaker 1: give you five seconds to get out of this room

1372
01:16:12,439 --> 01:16:18,000
Speaker 1: before I colck. You talk about it in power. So

1373
01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 1: now when I look at my twenty nine year old

1374
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:22,760
Speaker 1: daughter and I see I see some of her biological

1375
01:16:22,840 --> 01:16:25,680
Speaker 1: mother in these moments where she isn't going to be

1376
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:28,240
Speaker 1: pushed a wrap, There's no doubt about it. Love it.

1377
01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:33,759
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Um. Have you worked with birth parents

1378
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:37,519
Speaker 1: who placed their child for adoption? Yes, I never worked

1379
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 1: with both, so I think it's malpracticed to say, oh,

1380
01:16:41,280 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 1: we're all striving towards the same goal. Let's have you

1381
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:47,880
Speaker 1: all everyone represent together. I have worked with birth parents

1382
01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:50,360
Speaker 1: and they have run the gamut. I have had birth

1383
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:55,599
Speaker 1: parents who have two degrees from universities and speak four

1384
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:58,920
Speaker 1: languages who just found they were pregnant and an inappropriate time.

1385
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:03,760
Speaker 1: I had a high school health teacher who mistook the

1386
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:08,639
Speaker 1: signs of pregnancy for being perimenopausal uh and discovered when

1387
01:17:08,680 --> 01:17:11,040
Speaker 1: she went to her doctor that she said, I have

1388
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:14,120
Speaker 1: this mass and it's developing in my abdomen and I

1389
01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:16,040
Speaker 1: think I need surgery. And he said, oh, there will

1390
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:18,439
Speaker 1: be no need. In about six months that mass will

1391
01:17:18,439 --> 01:17:21,000
Speaker 1: come out as a baby. And she said, that's impossible.

1392
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:25,719
Speaker 1: What are some of the questions that anyone who's interested

1393
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:28,679
Speaker 1: in adoption to ask themselves before they go down the road?

1394
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:31,080
Speaker 1: You know, we said, like you can tell in their eyes,

1395
01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:34,600
Speaker 1: like some times if you guys aren't there yet, or

1396
01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:38,599
Speaker 1: I think you have to ask yourselves if you're single,

1397
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:41,200
Speaker 1: Am I ready to make the time commitment? And do

1398
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:43,800
Speaker 1: I have a game plan thought out? I'm going to

1399
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:46,439
Speaker 1: bring the baby home? I still have a job. Have

1400
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:50,600
Speaker 1: I interviewed pediatricians? Have I talked to people who are

1401
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 1: single about how they manage it? Am I ready to

1402
01:17:53,479 --> 01:17:56,559
Speaker 1: make the sacrifices they come with being a parent. Because

1403
01:17:56,560 --> 01:17:58,879
Speaker 1: the ability when you are not a parent to say,

1404
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:02,599
Speaker 1: let's go away for the weekend. Let's just you know,

1405
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:05,280
Speaker 1: have the neighbor looking on the dog and we'll go

1406
01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:08,240
Speaker 1: to Las Vegas or will fly away. You can't do it,

1407
01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:11,360
Speaker 1: and you have to recognize that you can't be the

1408
01:18:11,400 --> 01:18:16,240
Speaker 1: center of attention anymore because the child will need your attention.

1409
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:20,080
Speaker 1: I think in marital relations, if your marriage is not

1410
01:18:20,280 --> 01:18:24,639
Speaker 1: strong and your relationship with one another is not rock solid,

1411
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:27,720
Speaker 1: bringing a baby in is not going to help it.

1412
01:18:28,120 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 1: And sometimes people feel, oh, baby makes three and that

1413
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:33,960
Speaker 1: will be wonderful, So they really need to look at that.

1414
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:36,920
Speaker 1: And then you need to look at will I be

1415
01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:42,519
Speaker 1: able to get past the feeling that I'm adopting a

1416
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 1: child I'm not having my own. Well, I be able

1417
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:48,479
Speaker 1: to deal with that. Some parents can't. For those who

1418
01:18:48,479 --> 01:18:51,040
Speaker 1: feel that if it's not genetically mine, I will not

1419
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:53,880
Speaker 1: be able to ever love it the same way, they

1420
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:56,680
Speaker 1: need to come and talk with me about assisted reproduction

1421
01:18:57,120 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 1: and family formation through surrogacy. That's it's necessary. You want

1422
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:06,800
Speaker 1: to have those discussions ideally before and think those things

1423
01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:09,519
Speaker 1: through before the baby is born, and you try your

1424
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:11,320
Speaker 1: best to do it. I know I tried my best

1425
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:13,920
Speaker 1: to do with my wife when we were looking at

1426
01:19:13,920 --> 01:19:16,719
Speaker 1: the process of adopting. But I'll share this little story

1427
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:20,040
Speaker 1: with you. Our daughter was born out of state, and

1428
01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:22,080
Speaker 1: we went up in the morning to pick her up

1429
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:25,120
Speaker 1: at the hospital, and we flew home that night and

1430
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:30,200
Speaker 1: brought her home to our little condominium in Encino, and uh,

1431
01:19:30,360 --> 01:19:34,720
Speaker 1: the grandparents came over and spent time Ouie and I

1432
01:19:35,040 --> 01:19:40,080
Speaker 1: and how beautiful she was. And the godfather came over,

1433
01:19:40,200 --> 01:19:43,599
Speaker 1: and the godmother came over, and then at about nine

1434
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:47,200
Speaker 1: o'clock at night, my wife and I were really exhausted,

1435
01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:51,479
Speaker 1: and they graciously took the hint and left. My wife

1436
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:56,040
Speaker 1: takes Jesse into the room, her into the nursery area

1437
01:19:56,120 --> 01:19:59,240
Speaker 1: to change her diaper, and I went to the kitchen

1438
01:19:59,240 --> 01:20:02,320
Speaker 1: to grab a glass to water. And it hit me

1439
01:20:02,400 --> 01:20:06,400
Speaker 1: as I was walking back towards Jesse's room that I

1440
01:20:06,439 --> 01:20:09,599
Speaker 1: was not so certain that I was up to this task.

1441
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 1: And I walked to my wife and I said to her, ah,

1442
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:20,439
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can do this, And she

1443
01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:23,800
Speaker 1: said to me, you know what, it's a little too

1444
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:28,760
Speaker 1: late now, suck it up, you know. But that she

1445
01:20:28,920 --> 01:20:31,800
Speaker 1: got back to the business of diapering, and I got

1446
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: into the business of parenting with her, and I realized,

1447
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:38,320
Speaker 1: you're always going to have that nervousness every person who

1448
01:20:38,360 --> 01:20:43,799
Speaker 1: brings a newborn in their homehouse. I definitely had, without

1449
01:20:43,880 --> 01:20:46,680
Speaker 1: a doubt, and I didn't you know, you know, I

1450
01:20:46,720 --> 01:20:50,160
Speaker 1: have I berthed my son, but I definitely brought him

1451
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:52,800
Speaker 1: home and thought, who is this stranger in my house?

1452
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:55,200
Speaker 1: And what did I do to my life? And you know,

1453
01:20:56,400 --> 01:20:58,280
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm up for the task either,

1454
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:00,640
Speaker 1: and suck it up, you know, like this was you

1455
01:21:00,720 --> 01:21:03,040
Speaker 1: got yourself in and you wanted, you know, to be

1456
01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:07,000
Speaker 1: a mom of course now you know, but I feel

1457
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:09,920
Speaker 1: great about the choice. But well you can't when these

1458
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:15,519
Speaker 1: huge life things are Do people ever start the process

1459
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:17,400
Speaker 1: and then say to you, you know what, I really

1460
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:20,000
Speaker 1: I'm scared that I'm not going to connect to the

1461
01:21:20,080 --> 01:21:23,320
Speaker 1: child because the child is adopted, and I'm going to

1462
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:25,120
Speaker 1: look at the baby's face and they're not going to

1463
01:21:25,200 --> 01:21:28,080
Speaker 1: look like me or my partner or whatever. It happens,

1464
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:31,840
Speaker 1: and some absolutely back out of the process. Mercifully, it

1465
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:35,800
Speaker 1: usually happens before a match is made. I do not

1466
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:39,479
Speaker 1: think I've ever had a situation. No, I'm fairly certain

1467
01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:42,000
Speaker 1: I've never had a situation where after a match a

1468
01:21:42,040 --> 01:21:44,639
Speaker 1: couple says we've changed our mind, we don't want to proceed.

1469
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:48,479
Speaker 1: But pre match, oh yes, because part of the problem

1470
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:51,639
Speaker 1: is when you're adopting, you never as an adoptive parent.

1471
01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:53,320
Speaker 1: Now I'm not going to speak as an attorney I'm

1472
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:56,479
Speaker 1: gonna speak as an adoptive parent, which I am. You

1473
01:21:56,520 --> 01:21:59,640
Speaker 1: never allow yourself any of the pleasures of the experience

1474
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:03,720
Speaker 1: of a pregnancy. If you can be quite pleasure with pregnancy, uh,

1475
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:06,439
Speaker 1: you never allow yourself any of those pleasures going through

1476
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:08,280
Speaker 1: the process, because in the back of your mind is

1477
01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:13,120
Speaker 1: that what if she changes her with dan. It's like you,

1478
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:17,800
Speaker 1: you can only be super cautiously optimistic. You don't dare

1479
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:22,559
Speaker 1: indulge the real big dreaming, and so suddenly it all

1480
01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:27,320
Speaker 1: comes upon you. It. People in the supermarkets will turn

1481
01:22:27,880 --> 01:22:29,920
Speaker 1: turn to us. When our daughter was little, and we

1482
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:31,880
Speaker 1: used to go to the grocery store and bring her

1483
01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:36,120
Speaker 1: with us, and they'd say, oh, that baby is so cute. Uh,

1484
01:22:37,479 --> 01:22:41,400
Speaker 1: but she has no hair and or she looks this way.

1485
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:46,240
Speaker 1: How is she your child? And we say yes. And

1486
01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:48,559
Speaker 1: for a while we used to say we adopted her

1487
01:22:49,439 --> 01:22:51,280
Speaker 1: and they'd say, oh, well, at least you didn't have

1488
01:22:51,320 --> 01:22:57,439
Speaker 1: to go through labor. My people say, the most ridiculous ship,

1489
01:22:57,640 --> 01:23:00,680
Speaker 1: that is absurd. If you want to just you know what,

1490
01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:04,679
Speaker 1: we didn't have physical labor. I acknowledged that we didn't

1491
01:23:04,680 --> 01:23:09,519
Speaker 1: that instead we had no real moments of pleasure mental

1492
01:23:09,760 --> 01:23:13,640
Speaker 1: and you had mental and emotional pregnancy, you know what

1493
01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:16,479
Speaker 1: I mean, Like you have that window, however long. It

1494
01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:19,760
Speaker 1: takes some people two years of pondering and dreaming a

1495
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:21,840
Speaker 1: little bit, but then keeping it at bay right, and

1496
01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:24,920
Speaker 1: then you have the baby, and you have the baby

1497
01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:27,559
Speaker 1: in sight. Now the do data is approaching and at

1498
01:23:27,560 --> 01:23:30,000
Speaker 1: the time we adopted, a birth mom had six months

1499
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:32,920
Speaker 1: to change her mind for any reason. It didn't even

1500
01:23:32,960 --> 01:23:35,280
Speaker 1: have to be a good reason. So we went out

1501
01:23:35,320 --> 01:23:38,479
Speaker 1: of state where we could finalize in ten days. In

1502
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:40,519
Speaker 1: Oregon we were able to do it in ten days,

1503
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:43,680
Speaker 1: and so we didn't have all that stress. But there

1504
01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:46,280
Speaker 1: were good moments in the grocery store too. You'd be

1505
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:48,240
Speaker 1: in the grocery store and someone to come and look

1506
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:51,400
Speaker 1: at Jesse and say, oh, she's so cute. How old

1507
01:23:51,439 --> 01:23:54,200
Speaker 1: is she? And my wife would say, oh, she's six

1508
01:23:54,240 --> 01:24:00,120
Speaker 1: weeks old, and they'd say it looked like unbelievable. Are

1509
01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:02,640
Speaker 1: we get The other one, which was always good, was

1510
01:24:03,280 --> 01:24:07,080
Speaker 1: she has the most beautiful blue eyes and where does

1511
01:24:07,120 --> 01:24:10,479
Speaker 1: she get those eyes? And my wife would say from

1512
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:13,160
Speaker 1: her mother. And they look at my wife, who does

1513
01:24:13,240 --> 01:24:15,559
Speaker 1: not have blue eyes, and they look at the baby. Again.

1514
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:19,519
Speaker 1: They didn't know what to say hilarious, I love it.

1515
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:23,840
Speaker 1: Can you recommend any helpful resources for those considering a doubt?

1516
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:27,559
Speaker 1: I would just also add that there are sites which

1517
01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:29,760
Speaker 1: I'll give you information for about where you can go

1518
01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:33,200
Speaker 1: as a resource for good lawyers and good agencies to

1519
01:24:33,240 --> 01:24:36,200
Speaker 1: work with. There are also sites that talk about funding

1520
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:38,919
Speaker 1: and financial assistance for people who are looking to adopt.

1521
01:24:39,080 --> 01:24:40,920
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, it's about doing

1522
01:24:40,960 --> 01:24:44,080
Speaker 1: your homework and making sure that you're working with the

1523
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:47,879
Speaker 1: right people. As I approached the year, in my practice,

1524
01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:51,400
Speaker 1: I'm shifting the way that I practice in the field

1525
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:53,840
Speaker 1: of adoption law, and now what I'm doing more is

1526
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:56,640
Speaker 1: I'm sitting down with clients who are thinking about adoption

1527
01:24:57,120 --> 01:25:00,160
Speaker 1: and talking with them about the concept of adoption, the

1528
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:05,679
Speaker 1: avenues available for adoption, and helping match them up with

1529
01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:10,000
Speaker 1: those resources, with the attorneys or the agencies that would

1530
01:25:10,040 --> 01:25:14,120
Speaker 1: best suit their personalities, their budget, and their expectations. So

1531
01:25:14,120 --> 01:25:16,200
Speaker 1: it's a more of a concierge service that I am

1532
01:25:16,280 --> 01:25:21,800
Speaker 1: offering now rather than finding babies for people, because not

1533
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:26,280
Speaker 1: every attorney is right for every adoptive parent, and so

1534
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:29,559
Speaker 1: that that initial matches I think the most important thing.

1535
01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:32,519
Speaker 1: So you recommend people may be meeting with a few

1536
01:25:32,600 --> 01:25:37,160
Speaker 1: lawyers or absolutely or working with someone like myself for

1537
01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:39,519
Speaker 1: others who do this work, who will sit and talk

1538
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:41,439
Speaker 1: to the clients and find out what they're looking for

1539
01:25:41,520 --> 01:25:44,000
Speaker 1: and what their expectations are, and say, you know, with

1540
01:25:44,040 --> 01:25:46,760
Speaker 1: your personalities and what your desires are, these are the

1541
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:49,439
Speaker 1: people I would recommend you interview. These would be the

1542
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:52,800
Speaker 1: short list of one or two. I used to early

1543
01:25:52,840 --> 01:25:54,840
Speaker 1: on in my practice. Clients would come in and meet

1544
01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:57,240
Speaker 1: with me and we would give them the fee agreements,

1545
01:25:57,240 --> 01:25:59,160
Speaker 1: and we had a fairly good amount who signed up

1546
01:25:59,160 --> 01:26:01,920
Speaker 1: with me on the spot. I stopped doing that about

1547
01:26:02,439 --> 01:26:05,599
Speaker 1: maybe twenty years ago, and part of it was because

1548
01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:09,000
Speaker 1: my fee agreement was thirteen pages long because it has

1549
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:11,840
Speaker 1: to cover so much material. But also it was because

1550
01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:15,519
Speaker 1: I really felt that after a consultation, no matter how

1551
01:26:15,640 --> 01:26:19,080
Speaker 1: enthusiastic you are, you need to go home and talk

1552
01:26:19,439 --> 01:26:22,320
Speaker 1: with your spouse or your support group or if you're

1553
01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:25,160
Speaker 1: a single person, or your family or your friends and

1554
01:26:25,320 --> 01:26:28,040
Speaker 1: make sure you feel right. And you're not doing it

1555
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:33,000
Speaker 1: because you're enthusiastic, but you're making a business decision. That's

1556
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:36,639
Speaker 1: why you're a good lawyer, That's why you're amazing because

1557
01:26:36,680 --> 01:26:38,240
Speaker 1: like you have to give people you know you're not

1558
01:26:38,280 --> 01:26:40,840
Speaker 1: looking to let's do this right here and now. It

1559
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:45,080
Speaker 1: doesn't work that way. It is such an emotional legal thing.

1560
01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:49,760
Speaker 1: But that is exactly the you've hit the nail on

1561
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:53,559
Speaker 1: the head. No one wants to talk about adoption as

1562
01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:56,640
Speaker 1: a business transaction. They want to talk about it as

1563
01:26:56,680 --> 01:26:59,920
Speaker 1: an affair of the heart. But it is a busy

1564
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:02,880
Speaker 1: and steel first and foremost. You are going to be

1565
01:27:02,920 --> 01:27:05,320
Speaker 1: asked to put out some money, and you best make

1566
01:27:05,360 --> 01:27:07,639
Speaker 1: sure that you've hired the best people who will give

1567
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:10,640
Speaker 1: you the best bang for your buck and do the

1568
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:14,320
Speaker 1: job that you need done. If not, it's a terrible choice.

1569
01:27:14,680 --> 01:27:18,639
Speaker 1: And if it's if if they're enthusiastic about their meeting

1570
01:27:18,680 --> 01:27:22,320
Speaker 1: with me and they read the the agreement and they

1571
01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:26,599
Speaker 1: talk and they're still enthusiastic, that's a good match. Being

1572
01:27:26,720 --> 01:27:29,240
Speaker 1: enthusiastic because I just need to do something. I need

1573
01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:31,320
Speaker 1: to sign something right now. I just need to get

1574
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:35,040
Speaker 1: that ball rolling. And then going home and saying, yeah,

1575
01:27:35,040 --> 01:27:39,080
Speaker 1: I wonder if I should have considered something else. I

1576
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:41,519
Speaker 1: wonder if I should have met with just another attorney,

1577
01:27:41,560 --> 01:27:45,880
Speaker 1: so I had some compare, some comparison, and then of course,

1578
01:27:45,920 --> 01:27:49,040
Speaker 1: you get people who come by referral. I've been very

1579
01:27:49,080 --> 01:27:52,280
Speaker 1: blessed to have the people who I've done adoptions for

1580
01:27:52,400 --> 01:27:55,000
Speaker 1: who refer their friends and their family and their colleagues.

1581
01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:58,760
Speaker 1: And not every person who they refer hires me. Not

1582
01:27:58,920 --> 01:28:01,879
Speaker 1: every person is someone I can help, but those referrals

1583
01:28:01,880 --> 01:28:07,160
Speaker 1: are really what builds the business. You are wonderful. I

1584
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:10,519
Speaker 1: cannot thank you enough for lending us your time and

1585
01:28:10,560 --> 01:28:13,920
Speaker 1: your experience was so eye opening, and thank you for

1586
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:16,400
Speaker 1: all of your time. Thank you for being on Katie's Crib.

1587
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:28,320
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode.

1588
01:28:28,360 --> 01:28:32,920
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns.

1589
01:28:33,360 --> 01:28:35,559
Speaker 1: Let me know you can always find me at Katie's

1590
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:41,000
Speaker 1: Crib at Shanda land dot com. Katie's Crib is a

1591
01:28:41,040 --> 01:28:44,080
Speaker 1: production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio.

1592
01:28:44,400 --> 01:28:46,920
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from shandoland Audio, visit the I Heart

1593
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:49,559
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1594
01:28:49,600 --> 01:28:50,280
Speaker 1: favorite shows.