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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. You

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Speaker 1: thought I forgot how to introduce my podcast. I would

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Speaker 1: never forget how to introduce my podcast, because I'm Margaret Kiljoy,

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Speaker 1: the host of Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, And

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Speaker 1: this is what I do for a living, and I'm

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Speaker 1: good at my job. But with me today is my guest,

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Speaker 1: Caitlyn Dante.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Caitlin, Oh, Hi, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. People, if they're keeping track, you were on when

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Speaker 1: we talked about Oh God, was anti fascism in film?

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Speaker 1: Was that you?

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Speaker 2: Yes? And it was specifically oh because we talked about

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Speaker 2: someone named Shrek Max Streck.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And then there was another episode on the printing people.

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Speaker 1: Who were the printers? Yes, yeah, all right, Well I

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Speaker 1: have you on for good ones and that's cool because

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Speaker 1: today is a good one.

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Speaker 2: Can't wait.

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Speaker 1: The other person who's on for the good ones. There's

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Speaker 1: only good ones is Sophie our producer. Hi, Sophie.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Caitlyn Fear.

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Speaker 1: Beforehand, I asked Caitlin what they could do if I

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Speaker 1: had completely forgotten my script, what they would do an

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Speaker 1: episode on And we're not doing that. That's not what's

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Speaker 1: happening today. I have a script in front of me.

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Speaker 1: But Caitlin said Paddington Bear. Yeah, Kaitlyn, who's Paddington Bear

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Speaker 1: for the listeners. He's a cool bear who did cool

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Speaker 1: stuff and he's just a little sweetie pie. He loves marmalade.

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Speaker 1: He is Sally.

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Speaker 2: He wears a Duffel coat.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's it.

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Speaker 4: I've definitely been with Caitlin where they were doing a

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Speaker 4: show and then fans gave Caitlin orange marmalade. Mm hmm,

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Speaker 4: yeah that's happened.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, people give me all kinds of Paddington paraphernalia. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: he based I mean Paddington. He kind of dismantled the

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Speaker 2: prison industrial complex in Paddington two.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay.

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Speaker 2: He also fought back against racism and xenophobia and like

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Speaker 2: anti immigration sentiments in Paddington I, and who knows what

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Speaker 2: will happen in Paddington three.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like he has a lot in common

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Speaker 1: with people we're gonna talk about today. Ooh, it's some

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Speaker 1: Paddington's cooler in some ways. Our audio engineers Ian Everyone's

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Speaker 1: to say hi in Hi ian y. Our music The

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Speaker 1: music was done forced by unwoman who has a new

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Speaker 1: album out that you should check out on band camp

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Speaker 1: or wherever you. I don't know enough about how music

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Speaker 1: is distributed. It's probably on Spotify two, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But today we're gonna do an art history day. Oh

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Speaker 1: but don't worry, there's still going to be revolvers. Oh good, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because did you ever take art history?

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Speaker 2: I did not. I know so little about art history.

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Speaker 2: I did.

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Speaker 1: It is the boringest class I've ever taken in my life.

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Speaker 1: So vay do you concur is it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I get.

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Speaker 4: I took ap RT history in high school with a teacher,

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Speaker 4: with a teacher who took it more seriously than a

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Speaker 4: heart surgeon takes heart surgery.

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Speaker 2: WHOA.

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Speaker 1: I took art history when I briefly went to art school,

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Speaker 1: and it's the only class I've ever failed in my

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Speaker 1: life because it had no connection to anything that interested

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Speaker 1: me at the time. Because my hypothesis, art history is

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Speaker 1: taught as if it's boring, as if it's only about

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Speaker 1: the ways that people like represented objects through time being

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Speaker 1: like and now they represented them with more color and

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Speaker 1: less color and shit like that. Right today, we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about the Surrealists.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about the Surrealists, because what

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Speaker 1: I learned about them was just like, oh, they chose

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Speaker 1: to paint things and they had melting clocks or whatever.

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Speaker 1: To be fair, I also just said that I failed

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Speaker 1: art history, so maybe they taught me more and I

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Speaker 1: was asleep. But what the pieces like meant was stressed,

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Speaker 1: but in this abstract way, as if art was its

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Speaker 1: own realm. Kind of like how philosophy is boring as

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Speaker 1: shit unless it's connected to daily life. That's my hypothesis.

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Speaker 2: Mh.

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Speaker 1: The Surrealists. What do you know about the Surrealists? What

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Speaker 1: have you heard about these folks?

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Speaker 2: I don't know the difference between Like if you were like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, like Cubism and Surrealists and the other styles, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't be able to identify who did what what

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Speaker 2: eras they were popular, and I don't I have I

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Speaker 2: have no information. This is a huge gap knowledge.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I think I'm going to be able to present

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Speaker 1: it where it's actually going to be exciting. I don't

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Speaker 1: know whether will make you care about the Surrealist art itself.

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Speaker 1: Although I actually really like some of the Surrealist art.

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Speaker 1: The Surrealists were all about daily life. They actually didn't

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Speaker 1: set out to be an art movement. They set out

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Speaker 1: to be a revolutionary organization of artists aiming to overthrow

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Speaker 1: the world order, and not just like philosophically, but like

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Speaker 1: with guns and shit as necessary. Oh hell yeah, that said,

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Speaker 1: probably most of them would have preferred to let other

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Speaker 1: people handle the guns. Well, they did the painting, let's

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Speaker 1: be real, And they did all of this as part

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Speaker 1: of the larger leftist project, starting off communist, moving ever

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Speaker 1: more towards friend of the Pod anarchism, though obviously they

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Speaker 1: all as individuals took different routes to different destinations. But

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Speaker 1: that is the selfclaimed surrealist group's movement. Okay, we are

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Speaker 1: going to structure this episode differently, a bit less linearly.

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Speaker 1: Partly I'm going to pretend like it's because the Surrealists

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Speaker 1: would have liked it that way.

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Speaker 3: They would, I.

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Speaker 1: Actually think they would have. Yeah, there's this word that's

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Speaker 1: used by the descendant of the Surrealists, the Situationists, who

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Speaker 1: are really involved in like late sixties France, lefty revolution

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Speaker 1: of everyday life type stuff. And they had this concept

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Speaker 1: called the derieve, which is this kind of pretentious but

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Speaker 1: also really cool idea of taking wandering around the city

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Speaker 1: to be an art form, right, and so like the

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Speaker 1: derive is just literally like you like walk out your

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Speaker 1: house and you go different places than you would have

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Speaker 1: and you just let the and you move from like

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Speaker 1: one situation in context to another rapidly. And it's a

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Speaker 1: very urban thing for that, right, is a thing that

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Speaker 1: works because it is urban. I really like the derieve

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Speaker 1: and you can recontextualize the city at random and you'll

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Speaker 1: learn different things. So we're going to take a reeve

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Speaker 1: through surrealist history and we'll start off with some of

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Speaker 1: the things they did, not some of the things they thought,

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Speaker 1: or some of the things that they painted or wrote.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna start with a story about World War two,

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Speaker 1: because apparently everything is about goddamn World War two, and

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Speaker 1: also on this podcast, everything is about a goddamn lesbian

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Speaker 1: and or non binary surrealist couple who found themselves on

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Speaker 1: death rope during the Nazi occupation. Who these two folks,

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Speaker 1: Claude Kaa and Marcel Moore, And they were both probably

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Speaker 1: would have called themselves women. They both took men's names.

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Speaker 1: Claude isn't could be either name, but Marcel is a

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Speaker 1: man's name, and Claude at the very least espoused a

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Speaker 1: non binary identity. I'm not gonna I'm just gonna use

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Speaker 1: she because I'm not gonna like retroactively be like you are,

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Speaker 1: the following kind of thing that we currently talk about, right,

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Speaker 1: I don't know sure. I don't think she would have

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Speaker 1: given a shit no matter what pronounce someone used for them.

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Speaker 1: And I'm only going to use one name for each one,

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Speaker 1: not because they were like terrified of anyone speaking their

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Speaker 1: dead name. That concept wasn't around, and they called each

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Speaker 1: other often. They called each other by their birth names.

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Speaker 1: But I'm doing it because I can't keep track of

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Speaker 1: more than one name for a person there, which really

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Speaker 1: helps me in the modern like queer trans world. But

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna call them Claude and Marcel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Claude ca A was born with a woman's name in

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Speaker 1: not A city in western France in eighteen ninety four,

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Speaker 1: and she was born into a prominent family of Jewish intellectuals.

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Speaker 1: Her father ran a newspaper, her uncle was one of

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Speaker 1: the great symbolist poets. I could not tell you what

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Speaker 1: that means because I have a similar level of understanding

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Speaker 1: of some of these things. If I haven't if they

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Speaker 1: didn't fight Nazis. I don't really know anything about them yet,

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Speaker 1: you know, sure I will. I kind of know what

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Speaker 1: the romantics. They would have thrown explosives at Nazis had

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Speaker 1: there been Nazis to throw them at. Anyway, Claude grew

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Speaker 1: up bilingual. She grew up speaking French and English, and

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Speaker 1: she went to school in England and France both And

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Speaker 1: when she went to school in England, like boarding school,

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Speaker 1: when she was like a teenager preteen, I think maybe

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Speaker 1: she met anti Semitic abuse at the hands of her classmates.

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Speaker 1: Because everything is awful, and she fell in love young,

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Speaker 1: and she stayed that way for the rest of her

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Speaker 1: life with the one person. And this is like one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite romances in history. This might be my

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Speaker 1: favorite romance I've ever recovered on this show.

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Speaker 2: Ooh.

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Speaker 1: Although it started off when she was fifteen, her dad

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Speaker 1: married a Jewish woman with a seventeen year old daughter, Marcel,

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Speaker 1: and they fell madly in love. The two stepsisters. Later

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Speaker 1: Marcel took There's two versions of the story. Either Marcel

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Speaker 1: took the boy's name first and then Claude took one later,

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Speaker 1: or they both took it at the same time while

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Speaker 1: they were living in Paris, US. I like the version

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Speaker 1: where they took it at the same time for no

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Speaker 1: good reason, and I have no It's my favorite thing

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Speaker 1: about trying to tell a single linear narrative out of

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Speaker 1: history when there's perfectly good arguments that completely contradict each

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Speaker 1: other about minor things, and then you get obsessive about it,

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Speaker 1: and then you cross reference everything and you don't get

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Speaker 1: an answer. I don't know if you've had this, and.

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Speaker 2: Then it's twenty hours later and you're like, oh, no,

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Speaker 2: I still have so much to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't always sleep Wednesday nights. We record on Thursdays,

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Speaker 1: just so everyone listening now knows what day I record.

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Speaker 2: Gasp.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what they'll do with it, but

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Speaker 1: I still don't trust people. Do not Okay, anyway, I've

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Speaker 1: decided to trust.

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Speaker 2: You still like to know when you know, they like

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Speaker 2: to have that insider information. Yeah, they like it when

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Speaker 2: the curtain is pulled back and yeah, really kind of

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Speaker 2: mundane details are revealed.

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Speaker 1: You see me with my hair unbrushed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So they moved to Paris. They were living together, and

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Speaker 1: they were rich kids. They are living off of their

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Speaker 1: family money, which is good work if you can get it.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: They often called each other by their birth names and

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Speaker 1: then use the boys' names, as they're like pen names,

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Speaker 1: but other times they totally used these other names. I

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Speaker 1: think they were pretty fluid about it. It's also so

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Speaker 1: they joined the Surrealist movement. We'll get to that, but

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Speaker 1: this is their lesbianism, alongside of a lot of Surrealist

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Speaker 1: men's open or closeted homosexuality earned the surrealis the epithet,

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Speaker 1: which is now a compliment of being a homosexual organization

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Speaker 1: has always been fairly welcoming to the case. Obviously, there's

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Speaker 1: homophobia everywhere. It's like, we're talking about nineteen twenties and thirties. Nothing,

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Speaker 1: it's perfect. Yeah, but yeah, a lot of them are game,

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Speaker 1: including Claude and Marcel most to the rest of the

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Speaker 1: Surrealists and most of the Western left. Claude. We have

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Speaker 1: more written about Claude. She's like more famous, right. She

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Speaker 1: spent the early nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties involved in

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Speaker 1: communism and the Communist Party, joining a group called the

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Speaker 1: Association of Revolutionary Writers, and this was buds with the

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Speaker 1: Surrealists because the Surrealists at this time were also really

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Speaker 1: into the Communist Party. This didn't last their interest in

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Speaker 1: the Communist Party, which was controlled by Russia. Right, So

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Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty two, she's like, Oh, the surrealism thing,

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Speaker 1: we're all organizing together. It seems cool. Sign me up.

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Speaker 1: She starts showing work at all the surrealist exhibitions and

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Speaker 1: all that shit. I do not understand the art world.

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Speaker 1: Like I have an understanding of like how it works,

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Speaker 1: but I don't get it or like care shit. Sure,

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Speaker 1: someone who's listening who cares, is like, why is this

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Speaker 1: bitch to surrealists? I care about other shit. They did

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Speaker 1: a lot, and I love the art they made. I

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Speaker 1: just don't give a shit about the world of exhibitions

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Speaker 1: and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I guess I've never even thought about it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how I feel about it because I've

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I've done no thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: There's no reason too. And the only reason I have

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Speaker 1: like a weird anger about it is because I like

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Speaker 1: all the anti art movements that like, actually, the surrealists

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Speaker 1: claim to be against the bourgeois art world and anyway whatever.

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Speaker 1: By the late nineteen thirties, the Surrealists were sick of

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Speaker 1: Stalin and they were getting really into Trotsky, which is like, hey,

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Speaker 1: state communism still seems okay, but like Stalin is a

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Speaker 1: motherfucker and authoritarianism is bad, right, So she joins the

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Speaker 1: International Federation for an Independent Revolutionary Art because nothing can

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Speaker 1: have a fucking nice, normal name. Everything has to be

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Speaker 1: the blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

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Speaker 2: Blah, so many syllables.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's all. I'm French too, I'm still sticking

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Speaker 1: to the English translations of these. And she's making art, right,

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Speaker 1: that's like her main thing. She's first and foremost remembered

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Speaker 1: as a photographer. She's called a self portraiture artist. This

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Speaker 1: is lesbian erasure because her partner took all the pictures.

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Speaker 1: Oh I see, okay, it's like she set them up.

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Speaker 1: There were collaborations, and we don't really know the details

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Speaker 1: of a lot of it, I don't think, but like

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Speaker 1: it was only like way later that people were like, oh,

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Speaker 1: Marcel was like actually taking all these pictures. It's fine,

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Speaker 1: It's like anyway, whatever, Wait, would.

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Speaker 2: They have been considered surrealist photographs?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So surrealism?

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Speaker 2: Does that even work?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we're gonna talk about this more like next

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Speaker 1: week when we get really in the surrealism who they are.

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Speaker 1: But the basics of it is that surrealism is not

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Speaker 1: about like painting melting clocks or certain color palettes or

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Speaker 1: things like that. Surrealism is about reconfiguring the objects of

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Speaker 1: everyday life in a way that break out of make us,

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Speaker 1: break out of our assumptions about like what things are

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Speaker 1: and what things can be. Surrealism is basically like, we

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Speaker 1: want to pain dreams, like we want to destroy the

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Speaker 1: barrier between like the dream world and the waking world.

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Speaker 1: And so this is like part of their revolutionary stuff, right,

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Speaker 1: is that they're like, well, we want to we want

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Speaker 1: to live the way that we want to live. We

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Speaker 1: want to see our dreams come into reality, and we

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Speaker 1: want to get rid of this like stagnant, boring world

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Speaker 1: that we've been forced into. It's kind of a rich

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Speaker 1: kid problem for a lot of them. Some of them

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Speaker 1: are working class. We'll talk about some of those, sure,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, no, And actually men Ray is the most

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Speaker 1: famous surrealist photographer, although one of the techniques that he

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Speaker 1: supposedly developed was developed by a surrealist woman who he

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Speaker 1: was fucking who was completely ignored for a very long time.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna talk more about her. She's a very important

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Speaker 1: war correspondent. But surrealist photography is absolutely a thing.

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Speaker 2: I'm a Google image searching it right now.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I don't know what's gonna come up. Is there

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Speaker 1: gonna be a picture of like someone cutting someone's eyeball?

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Speaker 2: That's so whatever movie that's it? Because there's also like

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Speaker 2: surrealist film movement maybe or maybe I'm thinking of German Expressionism.

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Speaker 1: I don't they both come out of World War One.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, okay, so I that was the first thing

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Speaker 2: I thought of of like a surrealist photo. I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I wonder if it's like like that image of someone,

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Speaker 2: which is I don't want to think about it?

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Speaker 1: Well to me because we don't have to because that

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Speaker 1: was by Deli, and Deli was kicked out of the

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Speaker 1: Surrealist but for being a fascist. But we'll get to

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Speaker 1: that the no go ahead. Sorry what you say.

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Speaker 2: Though, Oh no, just that it's I mean, I guess

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Speaker 2: it's what you'd expect. It's like photography but surreal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like I don't know you you all can

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Speaker 1: google it at home. Objects that are not where you

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Speaker 1: necessarily expect objects to be, like in different contexts and stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's not abstract. It's like still representational art. You know

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Speaker 1: you can see, right, it's hard to describe. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, that's the beauty of it.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the like most common one that like

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Speaker 4: I think of is the guy with the apple covering

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Speaker 4: his face. That's like the most that the one that

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Speaker 4: I that when I'm like, oh this is what this is,

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Speaker 4: that's what I think of.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I had a photograph of

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Speaker 2: a painting. I can't even see the apple in the face.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the painting. Yes, it is apple in

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Speaker 2: front of face art.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's a whole subgenre.

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Speaker 1: But you can do the same thing with a photo, right,

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Speaker 1: there's both. Oh okay, oh yeah, all right, Sophie paid

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Speaker 1: more attention art history than I did. There we go.

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Speaker 4: I passed my AP test, thank you.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 4: I was really scared of that teacher, like I, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I talk too much in class and guess where I

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Speaker 4: am now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's right. I have this theory about how I

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Speaker 1: got listening. I'm scared of him. Still, it's been a

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Speaker 1: long time, and I still have fear.

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Speaker 2: Sorry for your biggest fan.

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Speaker 3: That would be really cool, but don't tell me.

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Speaker 2: I don't need to know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're just like that would be really creepy. Yeah, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: so back to the surrealist by first, Oh, do you

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Speaker 1: know what else? Is a juxtaposition of things that don't

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Speaker 1: belong together to create a strange hole and trying to

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Speaker 1: make it in the art world while at the same

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Speaker 1: time holding revolutionary values. It's the fact that we have advertising. Yep,

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Speaker 1: here's the Mads and we're back, and we are talking

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Speaker 1: about cloud cause art that she made with with Marcel,

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Speaker 1: and like, we have this assumption that women are supposed

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Speaker 1: to be obsessed with ourselves, so it's all seeing a

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Speaker 1: self portraiture is kind of my read on how this

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Speaker 1: is read, right, And you also have like all of

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Speaker 1: these like other famous women who did self portraiture and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. But it was artistic collaboration with Marcel,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk later about all the porn that

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Speaker 1: they took of each other and shit nice and she's

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Speaker 1: more reice only more recently getting any credit. So Claude

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Speaker 1: became sort of well known for the Paris photographs, although

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Speaker 1: really honestly really only got famous in the eighties, like

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Speaker 1: years and decades after she died or whatever. In classic

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Speaker 1: under misunderstood artist form, the two these photos that she

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Speaker 1: takes are really into fucking with gender and costume and

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Speaker 1: they're really fucking cool. And there's like photos of herself

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Speaker 1: talking to herself, and there's like like photos of her

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Speaker 1: like meeting her and like all of these like gender things,

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Speaker 1: and she has a shaved head and most of them

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Speaker 1: she's very androgynous looking. And at one point she wrote

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Speaker 1: masculine feminine it depends on the situation. Neuter is the

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Speaker 1: only gender that always suits me. I see you trying

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Speaker 1: to google it and her name is spelled like it

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Speaker 1: would be Kahun.

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Speaker 2: I got there, Okay, yes, and now I'm looking at

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Speaker 2: these images. Very cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I really like her work. Like she's more famous

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Speaker 1: to me for some of her later work during the

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Speaker 1: Nazi occupation.

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Speaker 5: But.

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Speaker 1: She worked in every medium. She wrote and then Marcel

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Speaker 1: did the illustration. Like overall, it's like they both did photos,

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Speaker 1: but she was more the writer and Marcel was more

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Speaker 1: the illustrator. She did collages, which is a really big

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Speaker 1: important part of surrealist work. She sculpted, she did performance art,

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Speaker 1: they did propaganda, She wrote theory. She especially wrote about

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Speaker 1: the idea of perpetual insurrection. They also did some street fighting,

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Speaker 1: which is my favorite form of art. What they they,

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Speaker 1: I don't know they called it art or not. They've

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Speaker 1: they formed a group called Contra Attack, which I think

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Speaker 1: means counterattack, which they referred to as the quote Combat

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Speaker 1: Union of Revolutionary Intellectuals, and they joined that. They did

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Speaker 1: this alongside some other surrealists like Andre Bertrand Breton and

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Speaker 1: George Batai, and as far as I can tell, this

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Speaker 1: was like a magazine and they're talking about all this

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Speaker 1: like need for revolutionary stuff. It also seems like they're

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Speaker 1: throwing down in the streets because this is nineteen thirties

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Speaker 1: in Europe and there's fascists and they need to be

394
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 1: stopped right and at this point they're all moving further left.

395
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Speaker 1: They've already left Stalinism, now they're leaving Trotzkyism, and they're

396
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Speaker 1: making their way into anarchism. And they don't do it

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Speaker 1: as by necessarily being like, this is the ideology that

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Speaker 1: I want to check off, and instead they're like, actually

399
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Speaker 1: we like freedom and all of these Like we're going

400
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: to talk about this more in the longer piece, but

401
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,360
Speaker 1: like all the communists are like, no, you can't draw

402
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Speaker 1: weird things. You have to draw very representational things and

403
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: uphold the workers in the following ways or whatever. My

404
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 1: favorite thing that I heard while researching this is our

405
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: history people referring to her as a libertarian. This is

406
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Speaker 1: I mean, it's a mistranslation. It is technically true. She

407
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 1: called herself a libertarian because she was a libertarian communist.

408
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: She was an anarchist. That's just how you refer to

409
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: it at the time where she lived, right, implying an

410
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: American libertarianism is entirely incorrect. Nineteen thirty seven, there's war

411
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Speaker 1: on the horizon. Anti Semitism is picking up in France,

412
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:46,439
Speaker 1: and they're Jewish lesbians. So the Aazis are like, not

413
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,400
Speaker 1: going to be a really good thing from their point

414
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Speaker 1: of view. I would say, no, yeah, did you know

415
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 1: you can move from France to the UK by going

416
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Speaker 1: to a small island immediately off the coast of France.

417
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Speaker 2: No, what do you wait?

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00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 1: The Isle of Jersey. Okay, it's just right off shore

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Speaker 1: of France. I had always assumed it was off shore

420
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Speaker 1: of England, but it's not. Okay, it's just right off

421
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: of France. It's technically its own country that belongs to

422
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: the UK for complicated reasons, probably involving like hundreds of

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Speaker 1: years of war. Like I think they had a hundred

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Speaker 1: year war. I have no idea when Jersey changed hands.

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Speaker 2: I just so it's I understand. Now, you can move

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00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,640
Speaker 2: to the you're technically it's something owned by the UK,

427
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 2: but you're not like Mainland. I completely must understody.

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00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 1: No, no, no, sorry. They move right off of the

429
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Speaker 1: shore of France. It is the quickest way to get

430
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Speaker 1: to a country that is, you know, the UK, right right, okay,

431
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 1: And and they go a bit underground. As soon as

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Speaker 1: they get there, they revert to only going by their

433
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,439
Speaker 1: birth names, and they claim to be sisters, which is

434
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: technically true. But they ran no further than that. German

435
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: troops landed in nineteen forty. I feel like I should

436
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 1: spoil this and say that they survived the war. I

437
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 1: just want to like get that out of the way,

438
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 1: because we're talking about like Jewish Lesbians who fight against Nazis,

439
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: and I just want to like lead with a little bit.

440
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,479
Speaker 2: Of hope, yes, good to know.

441
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

442
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 1: Anyway, German troops land on the Isle of Jersey in

443
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 1: nineteen forty. They bomb the shit out of the place first,

444
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: they kill a bunch of people. It's not a good

445
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: way to make people like you, so Claude probably hearkening

446
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: back to a different anarchist woman who inspired the surrealist

447
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: that we'll talk about soon. She gets herself a pair

448
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 1: of revolvers and she starts doing target practice. Marcel is like, look, hey,

449
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: that like a for effort, but that might not go

450
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 1: real well right, Like, that's just that might not be

451
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 1: the most useful use of our one short, precious lives

452
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 1: on this earth. Let's fight them, but let's fight them

453
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: like surrealists. So for four years they fought the occupation.

454
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: And the way they did it is they constructed this huge,

455
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: elaborate false conspiracy, pretending that there was a conspiracy of

456
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:18,719
Speaker 1: German soldiers who were deserting in mass and Marcel spoke German,

457
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 1: and so they started leaving secret messages for the Germans

458
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: to find. They were like missives from the initially fictitious

459
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 1: rebellion within German ranks, and they were all signed the

460
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 1: nameless soldier and they would slip this propaganda into the

461
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: pockets of German soldiers or push it through open windows

462
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: into empty German cars. And it's fucking cool. And I

463
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 1: want to quote. I'm going to quote from a piece

464
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: from an upcoming issue of the journal Batten, which is

465
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: published by Contagion Press, which is a press worth checking

466
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: out for all your wild queer history needs. The quote

467
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 1: is one of their earliest tracks, read fighting, Fighting without End, horrific,

468
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: fighting without end. They would just write that in German

469
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: and slip it into people's pockets. Okay, that will part,

470
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: wasn't the quote? Back to the quote. Other tracks simply

471
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: repeat the phrase on end without end. Theirs was a

472
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: conspiracy without names or ends, because they were not aiming

473
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: for revolution that would swap out the powerholders of the state,

474
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: but rather perpetual insurrection and the sensibilities of all. They

475
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: equipped themselves with new weapons charged with the contradiction, ambivalence,

476
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: and uncertainty of the without which is just some surrealistic

477
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: way of praising some shit I don't know whatever. Right

478
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 1: back to the quote, weapons without name, weapons aligned to

479
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: produce inner and outer ulterity. These nameless weapons included reports

480
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: from the war tips for psychic self defense, instructions for

481
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: casual sabotage, incitements to desertion with violence if necessary, and

482
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: aphorisms from Nietzsche ridiculing nationalism and the state. They were

483
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: posed in German in order to appear to be coming

484
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: from one of the soldiers themselves, written on rolling papers

485
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: and slipped into the pockets and threw fences around town.

486
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 2: So they were trying to convince this Nazi troops that

487
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 2: there were like, oh, there was a movement within yeah,

488
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: the yeah military that like people were trying to like

489
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 2: defect or whatever, just like, whoa, that's awesome.

490
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: And it worked too, did it all? We have one

491
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 1: quote about that we get to but they didn't know

492
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: whether it was working. I don't think. They just did

493
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: it for four years and it's like risky as shit, right,

494
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 1: and in nineteen forty four they get caught. They had

495
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: prepared for this, so they both took poison. This saved

496
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 1: their lives. They tried to kill themselves, but it saved

497
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 1: their lives because they didn't successfully kill themselves. But they

498
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: got so sick that they missed the last transport for

499
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: them concentration camps. Like I think the last transport from

500
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: Jersey to the concentration. I don't know it was the

501
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: last one of the day, but I think it was

502
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: like the last one total. And I want to go

503
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: back to quoting that article because it's just so good.

504
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: They remained imprisoned on Jersey, where they discovered why their

505
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: enemies considered them such a threat. The prison was filled

506
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: with German soldiers who had revolted or attempted to desert.

507
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: They all seemed to be aware of who the two

508
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: women were and showed them care and solidarity. The theory

509
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: of writing as a mean to engage others in a

510
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: process of becoming had proved itself.

511
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 2: This should be a movie. Yeah, my gosh, this is

512
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: so cool.

513
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: I know.

514
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: So the Okay, so they were slipping these secret notes

515
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: trying to and then and then it worked because the

516
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 2: various soldiers were like, wow, if someone like if there

517
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: are people in here like like being critical of what

518
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: we're doing, I feel that way too, So I'm gonna

519
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: so yeah, okay, yeah.

520
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: And then even the fact that the soldiers knew who

521
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: they were like kind of means the soldiers knew that

522
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: they got tricked and were chill with it.

523
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 2: They were going along with it because.

524
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: Because at this point it is a real rebellion, you know.

525
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, that is awesome.

526
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, they did get sentenced to death. They were gay, Jewish,

527
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: anarchist radical rebels, so that is like four strikes in

528
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: the Nazi mind. Their home was confiscated, a bunch of

529
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: their art was destroyed. This is part of the reason

530
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: that Claude wasn't really known until the eighties. I want

531
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: to quote a German officer about them. The two Jewish

532
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: women who have just been arrested belonged to an unpleasant category.

533
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: These women had long been circulating leaflets urging German Schultz

534
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: soldiers to shoot their officers. At last they were tracked down.

535
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: A search of the house, fully full of ugly Cubist paintings,

536
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: brought to light a quan of pornographic material of an

537
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: especially revolting nature. One woman had her head shaved and

538
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: had been thus photographed in the nude from every angle thereafter,

539
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: she had worn men's clothes. Further nude photographs showed both

540
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: women practicing sexual perversion, exhibitionism, and flagellation.

541
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 5: Wow.

542
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Also, I bet he actually liked it.

543
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: I'm sure he did. I would too. It is a

544
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: I am mad the Nazis destroyed this.

545
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a huge bummer. Yeah.

546
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: But in nineteen forty five the island was liberated and

547
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: they were freed from the prison. Claude's health was fucked

548
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: up by that year in prison, and nine years later

549
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: she died at the age of sixty. Marcel lived on

550
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: for another eighteen years, but in nineteen seventy two she

551
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: was like fucking him out and killed herself. She was

552
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: probably seven nine or eighty, you know, I don't know

553
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: what went into her decision making. She was buried alongside

554
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: her partner in the churchyard of Saint Berlade Ballade, probably

555
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: an early medieval church, like an over one thousand year

556
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,719
Speaker 1: old church under one headstone with two stars of David,

557
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: which is just fucking like relationship goals for like lesbian

558
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: Jewish rebels.

559
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: Right.

560
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: The legend on Jersey is that this church it was

561
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: going to be built in one place, right, This is

562
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: like and no one knows exactly when it was built,

563
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: but it was built before ten thirty, not in the morning,

564
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: but like the year the year, yeah, and it was

565
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: going to be built in one place. The worker started

566
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: digging foundations and then they like put down their tools

567
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: and stones for the night went home. When they came

568
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: back the next day, their tools had been moved over

569
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: a mile down to the beach, so they dutifully moved

570
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: all their shit back to the original place and got

571
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: back to work. The next night, the same thing happened.

572
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: The fairies did it, according to this legend, and the

573
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: workers took the hint and they were like, all right,

574
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: she'll never mind. We'll put the church where the fairies

575
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 1: want us to put the church instead of in there

576
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: like special fairy spot.

577
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 4: Right.

578
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: Oh, And apparently this is like a fairly common legend.

579
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: There's like a bunch of churches that it is legend.

580
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: But I don't care. I like that the fairies chose

581
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: where these women would rest in the end.

582
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: Yeah they knew. It's like they knew they were going

583
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 2: to come around a thousand years later.

584
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, from a different religion. And fuck it, Well, the

585
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: fairies don't give a shit. Fairies at Christian Yeah, that's

586
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: kind of their old thing. They moved the church to

587
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: hit the fuck away from them. Yeah, they're like, this

588
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: is our spot. Yeah, get out of here. There's a

589
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: street named after the pair of them. Jointly in Paris

590
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: now and I'd like, hmm, I haven't off the top

591
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: of my head seen a street name that's like named

592
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: for more than one person, but like, oh yeah, what

593
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: a cool like that is non lesbian erasure. What eventually

594
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: happened was like lesbians to be an exposure, yeah exactly,

595
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: which is what they took lots of pictures of.

596
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 2: But it, yeah, in so many different ways because I

597
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: think about exposure photographs.

598
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: You know, it's true, it's true.

599
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,719
Speaker 2: Something, Yeah, I'm smart.

600
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny that mostly only Claude is remembered and

601
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: mostly for her photographs, and even then she was forgotten

602
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: for decades right until her photos were unearthed because history

603
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,959
Speaker 1: in the art world have worked really hard to conflate

604
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: the surrealist down to a single dimension of just being artists.

605
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: Even though art for art's sake was like high on

606
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: their list of enemies, they absolutely hated the concept of

607
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: art for artsake. They believe that artists to express things right,

608
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: the artists to have an impact, you know, and that

609
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: like you have to actually participate in the world around you,

610
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: and her art matters too, and I really like her

611
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: art and feminist scholar see is one of the most

612
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: see her as one of the most important forerunners of

613
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: discussing gender's performance. And I think she's really fucking cool. Yeah,

614
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: but she was not alone in being a surrealist using

615
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: weird art shit to fuck with the Nazis. You want

616
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: to hear about more.

617
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 2: Okay, all right?

618
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: You know, like everyone from all across the world will

619
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: have known a thing for thousands of years, but then

620
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: when like white Western Europeans figured out, people suddenly are

621
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: like it's been invented, right, Yes, of course, like the

622
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: printing press that existed a thousand years earlier in China,

623
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: or gunpowder that existed in thousand years earlier in China,

624
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: and et cetera, et cetera. Well camouflage. Sun Zoo was

625
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: a Chinese general writing during the Warring States period hundreds

626
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: of years before the birth of Christ. In the book

627
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: The Art of War, he wrote, quote, all warfare is

628
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: based on deception. Hence, when we were able to attack,

629
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: we must seem unable. When using our forces, we must

630
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: appear inactive. When we are near, we must make the

631
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: enemy believe we are far away. When far away, we

632
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 1: must make him believe we are near. Like so, deception

633
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:07,280
Speaker 1: is very important in conflict in war, right, and everyone

634
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 1: has used camouflage forever, but Western Europe wasn't as into

635
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: it for a very long time. It was used here

636
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: and there in Western armies. But camouflage comes back in

637
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,439
Speaker 1: a big way in the First World War.

638
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 2: It wasn't the whole thing with like the I don't know, like,

639
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 2: not only do I know nothing about art history, I

640
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 2: know nothing about regular history too, just events. But I

641
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 2: was gonna say something like, yeah, it wasn't the whole

642
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 2: thing with like the American Revolutionary War, Like the British

643
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 2: were like, here I am in my red coat, like

644
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 2: the most obvious color, yeah, the most noticeable thing, not

645
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: the opposite really of camouflage.

646
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, which actually, and we're gonna talk a little bit

647
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: more later too. But I was always just like, oh,

648
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: it's because they're all fucking idiots, right. That was like

649
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: that was like the it was actually a very conscious

650
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: decision that Western Europeans were making that intimidation was a

651
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: more important thing than like hiding. Oh okay, and so

652
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: that's why like here's my big fuck off castle, not

653
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 1: you can't figure out where I live. And it's like.

654
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 2: That's such a Broie way to be.

655
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a Broie way that in World War

656
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: One didn't work anymore because the machine gun existed, and

657
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: you can kill a lot of bros in a very head.

658
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 2: Coat from far away and kill that person if you have, yeah,

659
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: that kind of artillery.

660
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. And of course camouflage comes back first under the

661
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: name in France. And you know that because it's impossible

662
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,479
Speaker 1: to spell the word camouflage.

663
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: It sure is.

664
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. If there's a word that I cannot spell on

665
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: the first try, and it is a regular word in

666
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: the English language, it means it comes from France, like bureaucrat,

667
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, bourgeois bourgeoisie.

668
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I can't. How are you supposed to spell

669
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: bougie good? Because every time I write it, I was like, no,

670
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: that just says boogie yeah or borgies. Once ime, I

671
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,439
Speaker 2: made this pin years ago, and it was like someone

672
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 2: in front of a machine I was a little edge

673
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: loaded anarchy kid, and I made this like one inch pin.

674
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 2: It's like a guy sit in front of an old

675
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: fashioned machine gun and it says death to the capitalist bourgeoisie.

676
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: Only I spelled it wrong, so I was actually saying

677
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 2: death of the capitalist women, rich people, okay, instead of

678
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: like all gender people. M m my, my lovely pedant

679
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: friend caught it and saved me a lot of embarrassment.

680
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: Good good, good good.

681
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 1: Anyway, in World War One, uh, there was a job

682
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: someone operating in the French camouflage units was a camoufloor.

683
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: And at the beginning of World one War one, a

684
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: painter showed up and was like, Yo, what about like

685
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: sick camouflage outfits? And the French army was like, no way,

686
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: we like our blue coats and red trousers. And then

687
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 1: just like absolute fuck tons of them died, and then

688
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: the army was like, what if horizon blue is a

689
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: nice color for her uniforms? Now? And so in World

690
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: War One, cubists and other artists stepped up and were like, hey,

691
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: we know how to deceive the eye. I am not

692
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: covering the Cubists today. I don't know as much about them.

693
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: The surrealist Love Picasso, who is a Cubist. And one

694
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:29,879
Speaker 1: of the things that they would do is they sort

695
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: of explode out objects into sort of different geometries and

696
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: just like explore different ways of seeing the world, right,

697
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: And so Cubists were very good at a very different

698
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 1: style of camouflage. You ever heard of dazzle camouflage?

699
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 2: No, but it sounds fun.

700
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: It is. You should google damp dazzle camouflage and look

701
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: for a picture of a boat on it.

702
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,879
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, dazzlemo. Well, how do you spell camera?

703
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: Just do camo. I'm sure it'll work.

704
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 2: Boat. Oh the boat comes up right away. Yeah, whoa okay.

705
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,280
Speaker 1: And so what do you say to describe to the audience.

706
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 2: It's okay, so it looks like a war ship, but

707
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 2: it's got mostly horizontal black and white stripes. But they're

708
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 2: like they're not quite zig zaggy, but I don't.

709
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a circus zebra, high contrast. Like it

710
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: does not hide the.

711
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 2: Ship, right, No, I would say not.

712
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: When you would normally think of camouflaging a boat, you

713
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: might think about painting it like water or islands or something.

714
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: Dazzle camouflage bright bold lines that dis rupted the eye

715
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: make it harder to discern how many ships there are,

716
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: what they're doing, and how fast they're going.

717
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah it oh huh.

718
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: And there's like a bunch of people who claim to

719
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 1: have invented this. There was like a I think a

720
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: lawsuit about it, and eventually this marine painter, not a Cubist,

721
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: named Norman Wilkinson like one out and was like I

722
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 1: invented it first, you know. The Cubists were like, no way,

723
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: it was us, right, the jury is out. There's still

724
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 1: people who argue about whether or not it worked. Sure,

725
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,720
Speaker 1: it seemed to slightly increase the chance that torpedoists would

726
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 1: miscenter mass because they wouldn't know which direction the ship

727
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 1: was going and like this is the like best guess

728
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: of running analysis. On the other hand, it seemed to

729
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: make it more likely to be seen overall, so it

730
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 1: was like kind of a.

731
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 2: It is not subtle, No, we're not talking.

732
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: About and it's not done anymore. Although it's not done anymore,

733
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 1: mostly because like radar and other technology like methods of

734
00:40:53,400 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 1: detecting ships became more advanced there. And yeah, so Cubist

735
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,919
Speaker 1: camouflage tended towards like bold lines that disrupt the eye. Right,

736
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: But camouflage importantly isn't just about having like cool uniforms, right,

737
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: And of course I don't know if this is part

738
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: of your world, but obviously camouflage is mostly known as

739
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: having the latest real tree baseball cap. So people know

740
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 1: that you're a cool rural queer even though you live

741
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: in New Orleans. Right, It's about disguising things more generally like. Also,

742
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: what they were starting to do during this war was

743
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: built fake trees to use as observationists, you know, kind

744
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 1: of like we have cell towers now, right, And Cubism

745
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: provides us sort of fundamental ideas to World War One camouflage,

746
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 1: but surrealism provides it for World War II camouflage. Most

747
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: of the camoufloors weren't surrealists, but they did partake in

748
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: buying stuff from things that were advertised to them on podcasts.

749
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: In the middle of a sentence, switched like that, pretty fancy.

750
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,919
Speaker 1: This is what we do. We do fancy transitions.

751
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 2: Love it.

752
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're against my transitions, then you are anti

753
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: trans I'm sorry. Ahha, that's the worst fun I'll ever.

754
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 1: Here's some ads and we are back. So most of

755
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: the camoufloorers were not surrealists, but their styles and methods

756
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: were influential as fuck. The guy who wrote the UK

757
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 1: Military guide on camouflage was surrealist, and we'll get to him.

758
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: And so instead of fucking with the eye with strong lines,

759
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: it became about fucking with people's heads and also mimicking

760
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 1: the natural world. A lot of early camoufloors, if they

761
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: weren't painters, they were like zoologists, being like, yo, check

762
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: it out. Look how this bug looks like a different

763
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: kind of bug, you know. And the Surrealists were also

764
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 1: obsessed with mimicry because so much of their work is

765
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 1: about what objects can discuss other objects. So the main

766
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,879
Speaker 1: camoufloor we're going to talk about the surrealist quaker named

767
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: Roland Penrose. It's been too long since we've had a

768
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: cool Quaker on this show. And wait, well the name

769
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: was what Roland Penrose. That's a cool name, I know,

770
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: and he's like sir rolland Penrose, but it's like never

771
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: written that way. I think he probably was like a

772
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: little bit of embarrassed because he's supposed to be counterculture,

773
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,879
Speaker 1: right right. He helped establish the English Surrealist movement, which

774
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: started in a lot of ways with art shows to

775
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: send money to the anti fascists in Spain during the

776
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: Spanish Civil War. Like that was like, oh, we're going

777
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: to have the big Surrealist exhibition because we need to

778
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: send money to the people shooting francoists. You know, I

779
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: would argue to this day one of the most important

780
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: roles for artists and revolution is fundraising and drawing attention

781
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 1: of causes. This is where I was going to put it.

782
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: I actually wrote a little cue for myself to put

783
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: in an ad transition here, and I completely messed it up.

784
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: Because the benefit show does both of these things really well.

785
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 1: It draws a ten things, and it also normalizes support

786
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: for a thing. And this episode could be brought to

787
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: you by the concept of supporting or throwing benefit shows.

788
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: But since I forgot to use that que, there was

789
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 1: a bunch of capitalist shit that got stuck in, so well.

790
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 2: Hey, you could always go to it.

791
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 5: And Third, providing identification to law enforcement required in some

792
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,280
Speaker 5: states and situations, giving them an address expedient in most circumstances.

793
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 5: Never discuss the events leading to arrest with anyone except

794
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 5: your lawyer, doctor, or therapist. Posting pictures of protests and

795
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 5: actions on social media may lead to complications. If you

796
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 5: have already talked to cops or experienced confusion about talking

797
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 5: to cops, call your attorney immediately, as these may be

798
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 5: signs of more serious legal problems. The concept of not

799
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 5: talking to cops does not provide legal advice, and the

800
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 5: foregoing statements are for informational purposes only. If you have

801
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,240
Speaker 5: specific legal questions, consult an attorney.

802
00:44:55,800 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: And we're back before World War two. Penro In a

803
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 1: pacifist in proper Quaker form. In World War One, he'd

804
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 1: been a conscious conscientious objector driving an ambulance around in Italy.

805
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 1: So clearly actually conscientious objector, not like a coward or whatever. Yeah,

806
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,879
Speaker 1: But nineteen thirty nine he ran a civilian camouflage unit

807
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: because basically at this point they're like England's going to

808
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: get invaded, Like we are alone against the communist menace,

809
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: and not the communist menace that comes later. We are

810
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 1: alone against the fascist menace. Right, We're in trouble. And

811
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: also we're getting all these air raids and shit, I

812
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: don't I remember what year the blitz started, but it's

813
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 1: the thing, right, And so he's helping businesses disguise themselves

814
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 1: from air raids, and he's working alongside another surrealist who

815
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: saw camouflage in practice, and that aforementioned Spanish Civil War.

816
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: Everyone at home, this is her why we've already had

817
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 1: the Spanish Civil War? Bingo checkbox. But soon enough he

818
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: finds himself a captain in the Royal Engineers, and he's

819
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: teaching camouflage techniques, and he teaches the fact that for

820
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: previous centuries, intimidation have been the way to do things

821
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: like ride elephants into battle, where red coats build huge castles.

822
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: But now there's artillery and machine guns, so hiding is

823
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:18,399
Speaker 1: better than intimidation. The surrealists struggle to fit into military life, right.

824
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: They are not conformists. They're like, they mostly hate government

825
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: and capitalism and all this shit, but they hate Nazis more.

826
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: You know, it seems like World War two kind of

827
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: overrode a lot of political ideologies and people just threw

828
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 1: down wherever they could be the most effective. But they

829
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 1: kept doing things like adding like walking canes and funny

830
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: hats to their uniforms. I read about one person who

831
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 1: like wore his like coat when he like walked the

832
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: battlements or whatever, as he's like, you know, surveilling the

833
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: area or whatever. The fuck Sorry I said code, I

834
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: meant cape old timing, oh, old timing coat. And so

835
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 1: he's now a captain. His romantic partner and eventually wife

836
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 1: is another surrealist, a photographer from the US named Lee Miller,

837
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: who she had been one of the most sought after

838
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: models in New York City and then spent years inventing

839
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: new photographic techniques like solarization while fucking the surrealist photographer

840
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: Man Ray is more famous than her for whatever audiences

841
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: left to imagine why, and she leaves him and moves

842
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: to London. But warheaders has a correspondent and a photojournalist,

843
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 1: and she took photos of many of the most important

844
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: parts of the war, like the liberation of Paris, the

845
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: Blitz in London, and the thing that gave her PTSD

846
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: for the rest of her life, the horrors of concentration

847
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:38,240
Speaker 1: camps during their liberation. What she got to do with camouflage. Well,

848
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 1: the surrealists really like naked people, especially naked ladies, and

849
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 1: as part of our derive through surrealism, I'm going to

850
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: go on alongside note about surrealism and feminism and naked

851
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: ladies and all that shit. Hell yeah, most of the

852
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: readings of surrealism i'd run across had basically that weren't

853
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: written women. Surrealists were basically like look at start off

854
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: as a boys club that only let women in, as muses,

855
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: not as people are artists, and they kind of sucked, right,

856
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: and that's fair, but that's not the whole story. Later,

857
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 1: feminist surrealists, to all the history better. Women absolutely had

858
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 1: to fight for inclusion and it was imperfect and women

859
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: were obsessed over in like objectifying and like muse ways.

860
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: But there are two things that are sounds familiar. Yeah,

861
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: that was why it was so easy for me to

862
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 1: like the Someone was like it was a shitty boys club,

863
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yep, yeah, I've seen.

864
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: Those for almost everything.

865
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:40,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to complicate it because I was reading feminist

866
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: surrealists talking about talking about in a really complicated way.

867
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: First they got better, like literally the same people got better.

868
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: In nineteen twenty four, the generally accepted a sort of

869
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 1: leader of the Surrealists, Andre Breton wrote, we shall be

870
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: masters of ourselves, masters of women and of love too,

871
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: because they're annoying boys club boys.

872
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

873
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 1: By the nineteen forties, the Surrealists were actively attached to

874
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 1: the feminist movement, and the same writer Breton wrote that

875
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 1: the time had come to quote make the ideas of

876
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: women prevail at the expense of those of men.

877
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,720
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, all right, sir.

878
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: Along the way most of the sexist men dropped out

879
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 1: of the movement, several male surrealists took their female partner's

880
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: last names. I don't even think before even getting married.

881
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: I think they were just like, whatever, her name's better,

882
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 1: fuck it, you.

883
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 2: Know, hell yeah.

884
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 1: And they were into free love instead of marriage, which

885
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: is absolutely a thing that could be just shitty misogyny. Right,

886
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 1: there's this complicated feminist icon. Andrea to Work and who

887
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: wrote about a lot about this in like the sixties

888
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: and seventies about how like hippie men are into free

889
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: love and abortion rights because they want sexual access to

890
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 1: women right right, But opposition to marriage was absolutely a

891
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,760
Speaker 1: feminist issue, especially in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries,

892
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: because legally marriage made women into property, right, so free

893
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: love was like a women's liberation argument from within radical circles.

894
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 1: And then the other thing that is really interesting and

895
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 1: complicates it, even when it was a weird, shitty boys club,

896
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 1: is that what they were doing was like fucking with masculinity.

897
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 1: Penelope Rosemont is an anarchist, an IWW member, and the

898
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 1: co founder of the Chicago Surrealist group, And she's one

899
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 1: of my favorite surrealist writers that I've read during all

900
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 1: this research, and she wrote quote as males who had

901
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: no use for any of the proffered models of maleness soldier, politician, cop, gangster, banker, businessman, athlete, bureaucrat,

902
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: or boss. The men who founded surrealism could be called

903
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 1: traitors for their sex. Not only did they reject such

904
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 1: quote masculine prerogatives as law and order, reason and logic,

905
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: they went so far as to champion their opposites, the

906
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 1: so called feminine virtues or vices, intuition, impulsiveness, and passivity

907
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: as in automatic writing and trans speaking. We didn't talk

908
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:12,879
Speaker 1: about this yet, but like one of the main things

909
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: surrealists were into his automatic writing, where they just sit

910
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 1: down and like let the words flow, man, you know,

911
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: which was like probably cool and radical at the time,

912
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: but mostly I don't want to read it anyway. To

913
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: finish the quote in a brilliant manifesto, Aragon and Breton,

914
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 1: these are too early Surrealists hailed hysteria, a label commonly

915
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 1: tossed at women whose emotional upheavals exceeded the boundaries of

916
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:41,280
Speaker 1: bourgeois propriety propriority stuff, as a supreme means of expression

917
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 1: French word. Probably yeah, probably, I think I noticed spell

918
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: up and not pronounce it.

919
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 2: Actually, oh well then it's maybe an English word.

920
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably is. I'm just someone who grew up reading

921
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: a lot more. And I talked, and she went on

922
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 1: to add, despite their very real problems, confusions, and mistakes,

923
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 1: the first Surrealist group was probably the least sexist, male

924
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: dominated group of its time. And so I just I

925
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 1: found that so interesting because like because yeah, it was

926
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,280
Speaker 1: just so easy to believe, like, I don't know, whatever,

927
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,280
Speaker 1: fuck these guys, right right.

928
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 2: Well, also, if surrealists are their whole thing is to

929
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 2: like subvert like you know, what is considered quote unquote normal,

930
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 2: or like subvert the status quo, then yeah, that would

931
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 2: make sense that they would be more feminist than any

932
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 2: other movement. Yeah, but also it's still like whatever the

933
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,280
Speaker 2: nineteen thirties, So yeah, you can only.

934
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: Get so far. Yeah, totally okay, And then like here's

935
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 1: a complicated one the reason that all this side note existed.

936
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: So so Penrose, Sir Penrose is teaching camouflage to soldiers, right,

937
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 1: and one of the things he does is I think

938
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 1: it's a slide, but he might just be holding up

939
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: a picture. He's like showing all this stuff about camouflage

940
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: and like the soldiers are dozing off, and then he

941
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: holds up a picture of his hot girlfriend naked except

942
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: for camouflage netting and then says, if camouflage can hide

943
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:16,280
Speaker 1: Lee's charms, it can hide anything.

944
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 2: That that's good.

945
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: I like it, yeah, and like it's funny to me

946
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: because I'm like, all right, it's just some fucking like

947
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:32,800
Speaker 1: here's like I want to show off that my girlfriend's hot,

948
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 1: like what. But it also he used it to try

949
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 1: and make soldiers pay attention to his lectures and it

950
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: worked and like the sleeping soldiers would like, wake up

951
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: and pay attention. It also got soldiers to come more

952
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 1: than once to his lectures.

953
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:48,800
Speaker 2: Okay.

954
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:53,439
Speaker 1: And also the other really important part of this, Lee

955
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 1: is an active and willing participant in this. It is

956
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: very likely that she set up the photo. She is

957
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: the photographer of the pair, so it's probably her fucking idea,

958
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: you know, right.

959
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 2: She'd be like, I know how to get meant to

960
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,280
Speaker 2: pay attention. Yeah, my naked body.

961
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 1: It has worked historically, I see no reason why it'll

962
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:17,320
Speaker 1: work again. And during all of this Lee, in particular,

963
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 1: especially after the war, Lee is suspected of communism, and

964
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: so she's like the British Red Scare I think wasn't

965
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 1: quite as bad, but it was like not great, you know,

966
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 1: And so they actually can't get higher ranking positions within

967
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: the British government as a result. Like, but the reason

968
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: we're talking about all this shit. So Penrose he publishes

969
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 1: the quote Home Guard Manual of Camouflage. I don't know

970
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: why I put quote that's just the title of it.

971
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: It's because I was too lazy to italicize the title.

972
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: Usually I remember to italicize the titles in my scripts,

973
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: but I didn't this time, which, actually, in retrospect annoys me,

974
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: because I'm the kind of pedant who really cares that

975
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 1: short stories are in quotes and books are in italics.

976
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I italicize the titles of movies in emails, I write.

977
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, as well, you should, which as I should? Does

978
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: it make texting really frustrated?

979
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 2: I know, I'm like, how will people know that I'm

980
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 2: referring to a movie because it's not an italic.

981
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 1: You better make sure that you do your title casinge.

982
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 2: Right, Nerds, How to do that?

983
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: Oh, just by capitalizing the first letter of all the words.

984
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 2: Oh, I see I say it. Yes, yeah, of course

985
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 2: I did that.

986
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:28,720
Speaker 5: Okay.

987
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 2: I thought that was like a special feature where it's like,

988
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 2: you know how some platforms let you make something in

989
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 2: bold by like putting asterisks on either.

990
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

991
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 1: I hate that because then it turns things into bold. Yeah.

992
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, why can't we do that for italics?

993
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 1: Though?

994
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 2: Well, it's the shortcut.

995
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: I'm sure it exists.

996
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm gonna call mister Apple and say, hello,

997
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 2: my iPhone, I need to be able to talicize my

998
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 2: text messages. Okay, anyway, why.

999
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 4: Is that not a thing I was a second ago?

1000
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 4: Well it signals better than I message, that's for sure.

1001
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 4: But uh, Tim Apple, the fuck I was hating like

1002
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 4: one minute ago.

1003
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 3: Now I'm like, you know.

1004
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 2: What, Yeah, you're right. Time to get fired up, Time

1005
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,879
Speaker 2: to become a surrealist. Yea, and Tim Apple.

1006
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 1: What are you doing if you don't do this, I'm

1007
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: going to convince you that there's a conspiracy of your

1008
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 1: children to murder you for your their inheritance.

1009
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're gonna leave little notes in your pockets and yeah,

1010
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 2: it's gonna.

1011
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 1: Until your children actually have a conspiracy. This is good

1012
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 1: and not legally.

1013
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 2: One of the coolest. That's still one of the coolest

1014
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 2: stories I've ever heard. No, I love it and it

1015
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 2: needs to be a movie. I'm going to write this movie,

1016
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 2: please do I heard.

1017
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: You know how to write movies.

1018
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 2: Well, if you're referring to my master's degree in screenwriting

1019
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 2: from Boston University, which I.

1020
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:58,720
Speaker 3: Would never mentioned a whole hour in rich job, Caitlin,

1021
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 3: thank you.

1022
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. I actually don't know if there's a movie about

1023
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: this next one too, and there should be. It'd be

1024
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:08,399
Speaker 1: more likely to have that one to a movie because

1025
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 1: it involves like tanks and men. But oh yeah, there's

1026
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:14,279
Speaker 1: another really good one.

1027
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 2: I'm sure Michael Bay tried to. Yeah, yeah, do it.

1028
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 5: So.

1029
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: Penrose wrote the Home Guard Manual for camouflage, and it

1030
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 1: covered how to make fake guns and fake people and

1031
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: how to disguise the shadows from vehicles, right, because like

1032
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 1: aircraft is now a big part, right, so you also

1033
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 1: have to disguise everything, camouflage everything from up above.

1034
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 2: Right.

1035
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 1: So these surrealis in Britain they start camouflaging shit all

1036
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: over the aisles. They're making concrete pillboxes in case everyone's

1037
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: pretty convinced. The Germans are about to invade, right, and

1038
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: so they set up pillboxes everywhere to shoot the Germans, right,

1039
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 1: But they don't want the pillboxes to get bombed, so

1040
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: they have to disguise them. So the surrealists and others

1041
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 1: come in and they're turning them into houses, gas stations, cafes,

1042
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 1: chicken houses, fancy ruins. This is how, you know, the

1043
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 1: fucking like this is where artists show up. They're like,

1044
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 1: we can do it. I've been waiting my life for this,

1045
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: you know, military budget.

1046
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 2: Turn this yeh pillbox into something that looks like stone hengs.

1047
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, what if the original Stonehenge was camouflage makes you think, yeah,

1048
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 1: And and so there's lots of camoufloors. But the surrealists

1049
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 1: and their students are the ones who went a little

1050
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: bit extra. They made sure that it was like closed

1051
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: for seasoned signs on the fake stores, and there's like

1052
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: bathrooms in the fake cafes and all this shit, you know. Yeah,

1053
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: and surrealists all over the Allied world are joining camouflage

1054
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: units and basically preaching the wonders of tricking the eye,

1055
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: and so are like sign painters and shit, Like every artist.

1056
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: This is like what they're getting into but the surrealist

1057
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 1: wrote the manual on it.

1058
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 2: Got it.

1059
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: Dolly claimed that all this was his idea. This is

1060
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 1: not true. He had nothing to do with any of it.

1061
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 1: And my the way I wrote him into the script

1062
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: is Dali, that weird white supremacist asshole, got kicked out

1063
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 1: of Surrealist for being friends with fascists in Spain who

1064
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: might come up later try to take credit. But he

1065
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 1: hadn't done shit.

1066
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 2: This is Salvador.

1067
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, Salvador delim.

1068
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 2: I would that's funny because this is how much like

1069
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 2: history is rewritten and revised, Like when you said surrealist

1070
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 2: art and then you're talking about like melting clocks. Right

1071
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the episode, I was like, oh, yeah,

1072
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 2: Salvador Dolly, that's the one surrealist artist I could name

1073
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 2: by name. Yeah. No, But it turns out he's not

1074
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 2: even he got kicked out.

1075
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 1: Well, and what he did is he showed up in

1076
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 1: America and he was like, I am the surrealist and

1077
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 1: he was like very good at capitalizing and self promotion,

1078
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: and he was like, I am the surrealist painter. You know,

1079
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: he's also a very good surrealist painter. Like but he's all,

1080
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: he's in another part of the script. We'll talk more

1081
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: about him. So, the coolest use of all this camoufloor shit.

1082
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:01,920
Speaker 1: You had your lesbian couple creating a fake rebellion with

1083
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 1: the Nazi ranks until it became a real one. The

1084
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 1: British managed to create an entire fake army through Operation Bertram,

1085
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 1: and it was run by folks who studied under Penrose

1086
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: and basically took the ideas from his book and put

1087
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:21,240
Speaker 1: them into life. There was this North African offensive by

1088
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 1: the Allies coming up against a German force that it

1089
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 1: was winning and driving the Allies back over and over again.

1090
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 1: And the Allies needed a trick up their sleeve, and

1091
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 1: they realized it wasn't just a matter of disguising some stuff.

1092
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: They wanted to create an entire false story, right, So

1093
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 1: they created two fake armored divisions in Egypt. They made

1094
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 1: five hundred dummy tanks, one hundred and fifty dummy guns,

1095
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 1: two thousand dummy transport vehicles. Meanwhile, the actual tanks and shit,

1096
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 1: they're disguised too. This is like goofy movie stuff, right,

1097
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 1: there's like pictures of the tanks, the actual tanks. Okay,

1098
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: there's pictures of the disguise tanks, and they're like wire

1099
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 1: framework that they like build some shit onto, Like I

1100
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 1: think some of them are fucking paper mache and shit right,

1101
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 1: whereas the actual tanks they're like building like truck shell

1102
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 1: to go around it, you know, so it looks like

1103
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 1: a truck within. The two halves fall apart, and then

1104
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 1: there's a fucking tang.

1105
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 4: Whoa.

1106
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,439
Speaker 1: This is likely the largest physical camouflage operation of all time.

1107
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 1: It was certainly the largest one of World War two.

1108
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, so Rommel this is a trojan horse?

1109
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, shit, sort of.

1110
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1111
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 2: It also reminds me of Argo, a movie that I

1112
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 2: would put that title in italics, of course if I

1113
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 2: was writing this stone anyway, we're I don't remember it

1114
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 2: super well. But it's like they pretended to be a

1115
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,680
Speaker 2: they made like a fake movie, or like they're like,

1116
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 2: we're developing where they needed to go in and rescue

1117
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 2: someone from another place, and then they're like, we can't

1118
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 2: do that easilyunless we pretend that we're a movie crew.

1119
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 2: Yeah is that? And I'm sure this was based on

1120
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 2: true events in history. Buff I am a movie? Buff

1121
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:08,840
Speaker 2: I am?

1122
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 1: Anyway? Well, it's like much in a very similar noble effort.

1123
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 1: I once stuck into a punk show when I had

1124
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 1: no money by taking empty pizza boxes and showing up

1125
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 1: at the back door and saying, this is pizza for

1126
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 1: the band. So sad, yeah, but the top okay. Actually

1127
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 1: it was like a bunch of a film crew had

1128
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 1: been like, hey you street kids, do you want this pizza?

1129
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:37,080
Speaker 1: And there's a little bit left in each box, and

1130
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 1: so I compiled it into like one big like there

1131
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: was like about a whole pizza's worth. I put it

1132
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 1: in the top box so I could be like, Eh,

1133
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:45,920
Speaker 1: there's a pizza and then see. But then I went

1134
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 1: in and I was like watching the show and I

1135
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 1: was like this is fun. I was like, man, I'm hungry.

1136
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 1: Oh shit, I know where there's some pizza. So I

1137
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 1: went back to the green room and grabbed pizza. And

1138
01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:00,120
Speaker 1: then the manager was like, hey, pizza person, did you pay?

1139
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:03,160
Speaker 1: And I'm like I did not. I will leave now.

1140
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 1: So I got kicked out my hubris like Icarus, I

1141
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:17,440
Speaker 1: flew too close to the pizza shaped sun, which is

1142
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 1: or is.

1143
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 2: The is the sun shaped like pizza pizza? Or is

1144
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 2: a piece of shape like a pizza in her egg?

1145
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 2: That's moon hits your eye and pizza and that's and that's.

1146
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 1: A more which is different than.

1147
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 2: What's what joke? I have to sing the whole song

1148
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 2: to get there.

1149
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 3: But you did it, you got there. I'm so proud,

1150
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 3: thank you, thank you.

1151
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:53,919
Speaker 1: So uh so. Rammel is the Nazi commander of this army,

1152
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,800
Speaker 1: that not the Allied army, but the Nazi army.

1153
01:03:57,640 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

1154
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,440
Speaker 1: And he couldn't tell which was a way so which

1155
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: was the fake army, which was the real army. So

1156
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 1: he split his army in two, and the Allies beat

1157
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 1: the shit out of him and has turned things around

1158
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: for the British and the North African theater, at least

1159
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 1: according to as far as I read, I read more

1160
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 1: about the way that they made fake tanks and less

1161
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:17,800
Speaker 1: about the way it effected the course of the war. Right,

1162
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 1: Penrose and Miller they got married after the war. They

1163
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 1: had a kid, but Miller did have from being embedded

1164
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 1: in the front, had pretty bad PTSD. Most of the

1165
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 1: surrealists in their forties and sh at some at this

1166
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:34,080
Speaker 1: point weren't directly involved in the fighting. Most fled the war,

1167
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 1: especially to New York City. But there's one other surrealist

1168
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:39,600
Speaker 1: whose wartime activity is interesting to me and is a

1169
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 1: way to tie in surrealist concepts. Renee agreed. He is

1170
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: a Belgian painter.

1171
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 2: He's a guy.

1172
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen that this is not a pipe painting?

1173
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:57,120
Speaker 2: No, but here comes another Google search this is not

1174
01:04:57,440 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 2: a pipe.

1175
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 1: So he has a piece called I'll describe it for

1176
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 1: the listeners. It's called the Treachery of Images. Everyone calls it.

1177
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:10,000
Speaker 1: This is not a pipe, and it is a It's

1178
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: a picture of a pipe, like a painting of a

1179
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 1: pipe that you like smoke out of, you know. And

1180
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 1: it has pretty cursive lettering that says in French, this

1181
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:16,960
Speaker 1: is not.

1182
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:18,440
Speaker 3: A pipe, Caitlyn.

1183
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 4: Once you google it, you'll be like, I've seen this

1184
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:22,200
Speaker 4: a million times, say, oh.

1185
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 2: I actually never have.

1186
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 1: Really, you live under different rocks. I live under a rock,

1187
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:28,120
Speaker 1: but you live under a different rock.

1188
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:32,480
Speaker 2: Yes, there are many types of rocks by which to

1189
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 2: obscure you knowing things.

1190
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:37,000
Speaker 1: Okay, you have seen this for the first time. What

1191
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 1: is your reaction?

1192
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, fascinating. I it this. This is comedy, you know,

1193
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 2: like a pipe. And then it says this is not

1194
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 2: a pipe.

1195
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I.

1196
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 4: Feel like I've seen this very commonly being used as

1197
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 4: like a tattoo.

1198
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 3: This is like a this is a no no, no,

1199
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:00,920
Speaker 3: this is not a body.

1200
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:03,960
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, like I've seen it, but like the actual

1201
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 4: pipe of it all, like I've seen it. I've seen.

1202
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 4: I definitely know people have the statuo got it. This

1203
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 4: is like a hugely popular thing.

1204
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:14,360
Speaker 1: The best niche meme I ever made that I don't

1205
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 1: think you, either of you or any of our listeners

1206
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:19,919
Speaker 1: will get is I made one a meme that said, uh,

1207
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 1: this is not a pipe bomb, and it was a

1208
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 1: picture of a bicycle and it was done in the

1209
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 1: same stuff. Do you get it?

1210
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:26,200
Speaker 3: I get it.

1211
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:26,760
Speaker 4: I do.

1212
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 1: There's a band called this Bike is a Pipe Bomb,

1213
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:32,920
Speaker 1: and there's a punk band from the early oughts, and

1214
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 1: they pretty much just existed to get people's bikes cut

1215
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 1: in half by the police because they made stickers that

1216
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 1: said this bike is a pipe bomb, and people would

1217
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 1: put them on their bicycles and entire cities have shut

1218
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:46,040
Speaker 1: down over this.

1219
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 3: That's fucking clever.

1220
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, well done. I'm sorry to have

1221
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 1: doubted your knowledge of.

1222
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 3: Oh it's so good, but yeah sorry podcast.

1223
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:03,600
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, okay, so this is not a pipe what

1224
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 1: it is saying, I really like this piece. I also

1225
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:08,920
Speaker 1: think it's funny, and I don't have any object like.

1226
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 1: It's an exploration of the difference between the symbol and

1227
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 1: the symbolized. People would be like, but mcgreet, this is

1228
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:18,920
Speaker 1: a pipe, and he would be like, of course, it

1229
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:20,920
Speaker 1: is not a pipe. Just try to fill it with tobacco.

1230
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 1: The surrealists were obsessed with semiotics, the study of symbols

1231
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 1: and recognizing, like recognizing that words are arbitrary is sort

1232
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:35,200
Speaker 1: of a key to surrealism. In semiotics, you have the

1233
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:39,480
Speaker 1: signifier and the signified. The signifier is the expression and

1234
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 1: the signified is the content. Right, so the signified isn't it?

1235
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:48,600
Speaker 1: But so it's like saying the word pipe, right, is

1236
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:52,000
Speaker 1: a is not a pipe? Right? Drawing a pipe is

1237
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:56,440
Speaker 1: not an actual pipe, and even the signified is not

1238
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:59,080
Speaker 1: exactly the thing. I want to quote a modern surrealist

1239
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 1: author who goes by the name Merlin. For example, the

1240
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:06,280
Speaker 1: signifier bird refers to a particular idea which has been

1241
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:09,440
Speaker 1: constructed by humans in order to understand and refer to birds,

1242
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 1: rather than an authentic object as it exists externally to humans.

1243
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:16,880
Speaker 1: The entire concept of a bird, in essence is a

1244
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 1: metaphor the bird itself is not a bird.

1245
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 2: I wish I was smart enough. I know.

1246
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 1: Is the kind of shit that, like, I think it's

1247
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:28,679
Speaker 1: it's worth pointing out. It's just like you can stick

1248
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:30,880
Speaker 1: with like the pipe is not the word pipe, or

1249
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:33,240
Speaker 1: a drawing of a pipe is not a pipe, right, Yeah,

1250
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 1: you can. You can signpost to something that the stop

1251
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 1: sign doesn't make your car stop, you know. And it's like,

1252
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:43,639
Speaker 1: and it's interesting. It's funny because I'm like, in some ways,

1253
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:47,599
Speaker 1: I'm like, this doesn't really matter, right, Like this isn't

1254
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 1: but it's I find it neat. I guess that's the

1255
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:53,280
Speaker 1: best I can say about it.

1256
01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:58,440
Speaker 2: So do I am I limited understanding.

1257
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're gonna end up with the the tattoo. The

1258
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:05,439
Speaker 1: other thing I really like about mcgree besides the fact

1259
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:06,920
Speaker 1: that I didn't look up how to pronounce his name,

1260
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 1: it's probably magree because I don't know. I should have

1261
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:12,599
Speaker 1: looked it up beforehand. I looked up so many words

1262
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:15,840
Speaker 1: for this fucking episode. He was a commercial painter, unlike

1263
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 1: a Ball all the other surrealists, not all the other

1264
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:20,240
Speaker 1: Unlike most of the other surrealists I've talked about, he

1265
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:23,200
Speaker 1: actually had a work for a living. He wasn't a

1266
01:09:23,320 --> 01:09:24,680
Speaker 1: ser you know.

1267
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:30,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, he wasn't a member of the bourgeoisie or the

1268
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:32,200
Speaker 2: boogie Yeah.

1269
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, he wasn't a boogeyman, a bougie man. He worked

1270
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,719
Speaker 1: as an advertising designer and a wallpaper maker and shit.

1271
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:47,320
Speaker 1: And so what he did is he painted this. This

1272
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:50,040
Speaker 1: painting did really well. It made him famous, right, so

1273
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 1: he just painted it over and over again and sold

1274
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 1: it every single time. Okay, and like that rules. I

1275
01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 1: went with one of my surrealist friends to see an

1276
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:02,879
Speaker 1: exhibition of these paintings once and was like, as a matterfucker,

1277
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 1: knew how to make some money. He also made his

1278
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 1: money spinning out forgeries of picassos and shit. Okay, And

1279
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:15,280
Speaker 1: during the Nazi occupation in World War Two, he also

1280
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 1: turned his art to the direct forgery of money.

1281
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:19,000
Speaker 2: Okay.

1282
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 1: And I far too often anti capitalists are too shy

1283
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 1: to like actually just try to procure get the needs,

1284
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:31,160
Speaker 1: the things they need to eat, right, Like people are

1285
01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 1: like too afraid to go get fucking money. But he

1286
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 1: once wrote, the confusion and panic that surrealism wanted to

1287
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 1: create in order to bring everything into question were achieved

1288
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:46,280
Speaker 1: much better by the Nazi idiots than by us. This

1289
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:48,600
Speaker 1: is not a pro Nazi statement by him. It is

1290
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 1: a questioning of the value of trying to shake things

1291
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 1: up for the sake of shaking things up. It's like

1292
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:56,400
Speaker 1: Trump people will be like, oh, I want the whole

1293
01:10:56,400 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 1: system shooken up, and someone's like, I'll shake up the system.

1294
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 1: People are cool and they're like, oh, you're Nazi right.

1295
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:05,719
Speaker 1: He stayed in Belgium during the Nazi occupation, and basically

1296
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 1: he was like, I can't paint dark shit anymore. I

1297
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:10,760
Speaker 1: need to offer hope in these nightmare times. So he

1298
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:14,120
Speaker 1: started painting with bright colors like flowers and shit, and

1299
01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 1: he called it sunlit surrealism. To quote him directly, before

1300
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:22,600
Speaker 1: the war, my paintings expressed anxiety. But the experiences of

1301
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 1: war have taught me what matters in art is to

1302
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 1: express charm. I live in a very disagreeable world, and

1303
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 1: my work is meant as a counter offensive. Other historians

1304
01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:34,280
Speaker 1: claim he switched styles so they wouldn't get labeled as

1305
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:37,120
Speaker 1: a degenerate artist and murdered by the Nazis, which is

1306
01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:41,519
Speaker 1: also fair sure, but I tend to believe him. I

1307
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:43,439
Speaker 1: think he did it because, like the dark edgy shit

1308
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:48,599
Speaker 1: wasn't what's called for during a Nazi occupation. Then nineteen

1309
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:50,400
Speaker 1: forty eight, he's like, man, the war's over, I'm going

1310
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 1: back to paint dark shit. This is what I like.

1311
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 1: People like to say that surrealism fell apart after World

1312
01:11:56,880 --> 01:11:59,640
Speaker 1: War Two. That absolutely is not true. What happened as

1313
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 1: it became less the art darling of the bourgeoisie. They

1314
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:06,679
Speaker 1: all hated the bourgeois anyway, except Ali, but he doesn't count. Instead,

1315
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 1: surrealism became a vibrant international anarchist movement that's still alive today.

1316
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 1: Went on the influence of the sixties radicals in particular.

1317
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 1: We will get to that next week, but first we're

1318
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:19,360
Speaker 1: gonna come back on Wednesday talk about surrealism before the war,

1319
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:23,960
Speaker 1: about surrealism before surrealism, and about a black sex magician

1320
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:27,120
Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century who paved their way.

1321
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:29,759
Speaker 2: Okay, can't wait.

1322
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:33,280
Speaker 1: That's my cliffhanger. I keep pointing out the things for

1323
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:35,160
Speaker 1: my cliffhanger. I've now done it every week. I need

1324
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:40,280
Speaker 1: to stop pointing it out. But if people don't want

1325
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:42,760
Speaker 1: a cliffhanger and want to go directly to the things

1326
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:45,080
Speaker 1: that you do, what should they do?

1327
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:52,200
Speaker 2: Well, you should listen to The Bechdel Cast, which is

1328
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:54,960
Speaker 2: a podcast that I co host with Jamie Loftis where

1329
01:12:55,000 --> 01:13:01,360
Speaker 2: we talk about movies and from an intersectional feminist lens.

1330
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 2: And uh, you can follow me on whatever social media

1331
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:13,000
Speaker 2: platforms don't absolutely suck, just kidding, it's all of them.

1332
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:22,400
Speaker 2: But I'm found at Caitlin Dronte and that's about it. Yeah, okay,

1333
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:27,080
Speaker 2: my worst job plugging myself ever. I think just now.

1334
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:29,679
Speaker 1: People should go listen to the Bechdeal Cast. It's funny.

1335
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:33,360
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. Margaret has been a guest. It's

1336
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:35,360
Speaker 2: true and we must have you back.

1337
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 1: What was the name of this? Like a Swedish punk

1338
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 1: movie we watched We Are the Best.

1339
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 2: We Are the Best.

1340
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:45,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very good. That's what I'm gonna plug is

1341
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:47,760
Speaker 1: people should go watch that movie and then listen to

1342
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:51,880
Speaker 1: the Bechdel Cast talking about it. Once again, I'm gonna

1343
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:53,680
Speaker 1: keep pointing out that there's something that's been in the

1344
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:56,800
Speaker 1: back of my mind to plug. I remember what it is.

1345
01:13:57,120 --> 01:13:58,439
Speaker 1: For the past couple of weeks, I've been like, I

1346
01:13:58,479 --> 01:14:01,759
Speaker 1: don't remember. There's a thing of just a plug. Tell

1347
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:04,919
Speaker 1: people about podcasts that you like. If you like this podcast,

1348
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 1: tell people about it. Word of mouth is cooler than algorithms.

1349
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 1: That's my plug. But you could also really like other

1350
01:14:12,280 --> 01:14:16,240
Speaker 1: podcasts un Cooler Zone Media because they're also really good.

1351
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 1: Because the cool thing about having a little umbrella, like

1352
01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 1: the little surrealist painting of umbrella anyway, is that it

1353
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 1: has a lot of cool things under that umbrella. And

1354
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:28,360
Speaker 1: Sophie is the umbrella who shelters us from the rain

1355
01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:30,000
Speaker 1: of the corporate world.

1356
01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:31,880
Speaker 3: It may work.

1357
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:34,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, what do you need from me?

1358
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:35,040
Speaker 2: Now?

1359
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 4: You need to plug something?

1360
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:38,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's up to you. You don't have to plug

1361
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:39,400
Speaker 1: anything if you don't want.

1362
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:42,080
Speaker 4: No, I want you to listen to sad Oligark, hosted

1363
01:14:42,080 --> 01:14:46,519
Speaker 4: by jkn rhand. We just but we just wrapped it

1364
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:49,200
Speaker 4: the whole things out. Listen to it.

1365
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:51,760
Speaker 1: Oh hell yeah, now that's done. I'm going to go

1366
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 1: listen to it. I binge listen. I felt really bad

1367
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:56,680
Speaker 1: that I haven't listened yet. I've been wanting to. Now

1368
01:14:56,720 --> 01:15:01,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to go do it nice right now.

1369
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 2: Bye bye.

1370
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:08,000
Speaker 4: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1371
01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:11,160
Speaker 4: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

1372
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:14,559
Speaker 4: visit our website Coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out

1373
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:18,040
Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1374
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:18,880
Speaker 4: your podcasts.