1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Knock knock, knock. Let's hear it 4 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: for our super producer, Dylan the Fox brother Fagan. 5 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, love love your barbecue. That's another very Atlanta centric. 6 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 3: Referend narrow casting. 7 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 1: Oh we are, we are. Indeed, that's Noel Brown. They 8 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: called me Ben Bullen. We're welcoming back, returning guest brother 9 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: of ours friend slash nemesis of the show, the one 10 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: and only Jonathan Strickland aka the Quist, And I gotta say, man, 11 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: you were so well behaved in the first part of 12 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: this journey, utterly mellow. 13 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 3: I mean to be fair, you guys. Every day I'm 14 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 3: getting closer to being able to hold the other half 15 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 3: of the conversation around spiritualism, you know, from the other side. 16 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 3: So it's just kind of put things into perspective. 17 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 2: There we go. It'll do that depending on who's leading 18 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 2: the seance. 19 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I think if you have ridiculous references to 20 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 3: science fiction films I've never seen, then you know, hey, 21 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 3: this is probably legit. 22 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 1: There we go. Yes, Previously on Ridiculous History. We explored 23 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: the oft untold origin story of what is called the 24 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: spiritualism movement, which became a huge deal in largely English 25 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: speaking countries in the nineteenth and twentieth century. So please 26 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: check out part one where we left you. Spiritualism was 27 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: skyrocketing in popularity. Three people named the Fox Sisters became 28 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 1: sort of harbingers and precedents for many other self described 29 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: mediums to follow. Maybe we start here, guys noll you 30 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:39,279 Speaker 1: remember in part one Jonathan made this fascinating and disturbing 31 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: point about spiritualism kind of surviving through personal grief. 32 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: Well, sure, and just how powerful and rife for manipulation 33 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 2: the experience of grief can be. 34 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know it's silly to quote, like a streaming 35 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 3: TV series about these sort of things. That's so you know, trivial, 36 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 3: But Wanda Vision the MCU thing had a great quote, 37 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 3: or I think it's a great quote, what is grief 38 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 3: but love persisting? And you think about that persistent love 39 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 3: like it's a horrible thing to think about of someone 40 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 3: exploiting a person's love and their loss, and yet it 41 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 3: is such an incredible opportunity if you are of the 42 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 3: unethical or a moral sort. 43 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 2: Well, that's a really good point, Johnathan, because so often 44 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: we see love being weaponized and like honeypot type traps 45 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 2: for example, in you know, spy scenarios where someone will 46 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: prey on an individual's either romantic love or lust or 47 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: what have you. But you know, we heard so many 48 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: horror stories about people being manipulated through you know, false 49 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: showing affection, and this is the inverse of that, or 50 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: it's the other side of that. Because the love persisting 51 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 2: for an actual you know, a child or a sibling 52 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 2: or you know, a partner, you can just as easily 53 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 2: glom on and capitalize on that. 54 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 3: And we're at a stage in the United States history 55 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 3: mid nineteenth century where a massive event is going to 56 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 3: impact the entire nation. And compound this situation where feelings 57 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 3: are running super high and there is sadly the great 58 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: tragedy of thousands upon thousands of lives. 59 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: Right yeah, in one of the worst named wars ever, 60 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: the US finds itself divided in something called the Civil 61 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: War from eighteen sixty one to eighteen sixty five. Despite 62 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: being just a few years long. This it is a 63 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: terrible event for the nation. It's a real reckoning, so 64 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: many people die. This means that spiritualism doesn't just survive 65 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: during this period, it thrives. And it may sound ghoulish, 66 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: but as we pointed out here, families on both sides 67 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: of that war encountered heartbreaking losses of children, spouses, parents, friends. 68 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: So people want this explanation. We're desperately clinging to the 69 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: idea that our loved ones are not really gone. 70 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 3: And I'm sure there are individuals who genuinely wanted to 71 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 3: give comfort to others, who were not trying to exploit, people, 72 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 3: who were actually attempting to make other families feel whole again. 73 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 3: But those few people with good intentions may have been 74 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 3: outnumbered by those who just saw opportunity to make some money. 75 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: Well said, And you know, since we're telling the truth 76 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: playing here, I can't help but draw a tangential comparison 77 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: to the way the pandemic lockdown was very good for 78 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: the podcast business. 79 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 3: To the point where everybody had one, to the. 80 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: Point where everybody had one. 81 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 2: People talking about boom time. 82 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 3: Hey, yeah, hey, y'all, do you remember do you remember 83 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 3: back when you started podcasting and the average person had 84 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 3: not even understood what a podcast was. 85 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: And there were dozens, maybe hundreds, but certainly not you know, 86 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 2: countless millions that we had. Yeah, absolutely immeasurable. That's funny though, 87 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: because boom time does imply sort of like everyone's making 88 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 2: you know, money handover fist doing this, and certainly that's 89 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 2: not the case with podcasting exactly because there's a lot 90 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 2: of them doesn't mean everyone's successful. But in the boom 91 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 2: time of spiritualism, there was certainly a lot of money 92 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 2: being made. 93 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And it's interesting this differentiates it from so many 94 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: other spiritual or religious movements because during the boom years, 95 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: during the halcyon age of spiritualism, there was very little 96 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: in the way of canonical text or formal organization. Spiritualism 97 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: instead was more intellectual salon scientific pursuit stuff. You would 98 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: see publications in trades or in magazines. You would have 99 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: what we call trance lecturers who went on quite lucrative tours, 100 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: and then you would have the performances of mediums. There's 101 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: an interesting socioeconomic thing that occurs here as well. Spiritualism 102 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: is inherently tied to progressive causes that are inarguably really 103 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: good ideas, like the abolition of slavery or giving female 104 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 1: identifying people the right to vote. 105 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, you cannot just wholeheartedly dismiss spiritualism as a mistake 106 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 3: or a bad movement when there are these other elements 107 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 3: that are involved. You know, it's one of those things 108 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 3: where getting that big picture look is important to have 109 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 3: a full understanding and appreciation of what the world was 110 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 3: going through, largely the English speaking world. As Ben has mentioned, 111 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 3: like the spiritualism was very much a prominent thing in 112 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 3: the UK and the United States. 113 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 2: Well, couldn't we lump in just things like fortune telling 114 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 2: and in tarot card reading and tea leave reading and 115 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 2: all that stuff kind of in this movement. 116 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 3: I certainly would. But I also am very good friends 117 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 3: with a witch identifying person, and so please don't let 118 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 3: her hear this episode. 119 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: Well no, But my point is that I don't think 120 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 2: there's anything wrong at all with people who do tararo 121 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: or oracle cards or you know, astrology or things like that, 122 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 2: because I don't know, I feel like you kind of 123 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 2: know what you're signing up for if you're paying someone 124 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 2: to read your cards or read your charts or whatever. 125 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: What we're talking about here is something that's much more 126 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 2: in the city predatory focused and predatory. 127 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: Predatory is a good word. Yeah, we know. For instance, 128 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: we'll give you one example of a very popular lecturer 129 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: around this time, right before the Civil War. There's a 130 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: person known as Cora Hatch or Cora L. V. Scott, 131 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: and I think her story really speaks to the baked 132 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: in prejudice of the time. So her audience would see 133 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: her and during her speaker time, she was a pretty young, 134 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: vivacious kind of person. So these audiences would show up 135 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: in the hundreds and they would say, look at this, 136 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: look at this absolute smoke show. How is she so 137 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: young and so beautiful yet speaks with such eloquence. In 138 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: other words, they expected her to be dumb as rocks, 139 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: and they because she did not sound knuckleheaded, they said, oh, well, 140 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: the only explanation. 141 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 2: Is that, uh, we're not wrong. 142 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: Spirits are real and the smart guys are speaking through 143 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: uh this beautiful dumb person. 144 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. It reminds me of how some people use the 145 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 3: phrase well spoken, in a sense that when you hear it, 146 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 3: depending upon whom it's being applied to, your thinking you're 147 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 3: sounding kind of racist. 148 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: Did I just say that to you? 149 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 2: Like it's like, man, you sure talk talk good for 150 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: a woman You've never never articulated, You've never said that 151 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 2: to me, Ben, Thank goodness, but good on Cora Hatch though. 152 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 2: For I mean, there are certain aspects of society that 153 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: I'm totally okay with taking advantage of, and that's one 154 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: of them. Yeah, yeah, you're talking about me. There is like, yeah, 155 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 2: capitalize on all these dumb dums thinking that you're only 156 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 2: smart because there are spirits moving through you, you know, 157 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 2: like take take their money. 158 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 3: It is. I mean, like we talked in the last 159 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 3: episode about how the Fox Sisters became kind of a 160 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 3: diversion and entertainment for the upper crust, and there is 161 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 3: a certain element of eat the rich that appeals to 162 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 3: me with that, Like it's not like they're preying upon 163 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 3: impoverished people who are grieving. If it becomes like a 164 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 3: parlor show, it's the people who can afford to go 165 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 3: that are. 166 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: Really Sadly though, as things like this get democratized and 167 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 2: more popular than you are going to start seeing people 168 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 2: that are trying to find their niche and that may 169 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 2: well be you know, taking from the less. 170 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 3: Are we talking about podcasts again, because maybe we. 171 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: Come on all right, we're moving on, all right, This 172 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: during this era, we also see very successful folks like 173 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: Asha W's or Paschelle Beverly Randolph, both of whom are 174 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: fascinating enough to be their own episodes. Essentially to Uh, 175 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: it's your earlier point about democratization and scale. If you 176 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: are the average American during this time, maybe you cannot 177 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: afford to go to a seance or to commission a medium, 178 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: but you cannot get away from conversations about this stuff. 179 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: It's similar to the success of television shows like Seinfeld, Friends, 180 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones, or Lost. This is what people talk 181 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: about constantly. 182 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 2: I guess what I'm getting at, too, is like everyone 183 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: can't be the top dollar earning medium. There's got to 184 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 2: be some bargain basement ones coming into the mix, taking 185 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 2: advantage of different markets. 186 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, you want to aim for the middle. You want 187 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 3: the media medium in order to really. 188 00:12:54,600 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: You know, medium at large, medium at large. 189 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 3: If you need to hear the rest of that joke, 190 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 3: you've heard the punchline already, but listen to the first episode. 191 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 2: Uh help. 192 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was, yeah, I was thinking that that this 193 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 3: is that there were people who were suffering profound grief 194 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 3: who were preyed upon by unethical people. Who who saw 195 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 3: the opportunity there, right, uh, and in you can see 196 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 3: this also in other forms of supernatural occupations, like dowsers, 197 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 3: for example, where you have someone who has a definitive 198 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 3: need and someone. 199 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 2: Else's susters referring to the wielders of these special sticks 200 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: that could find you water, yeah. 201 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 3: Or oil or you know, all sorts of different things. 202 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 2: Right, Like if you're in it's a little bit hand 203 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 2: in hand with snake oil type stuff. 204 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: Yes. 205 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 3: Well, again, like you've identified something that people have a 206 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 3: need for. And in the case of mediums, it's often 207 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 3: grief that you're looking to exploit, but there can be 208 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 3: other things too, Like let's say that someone passes away 209 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 3: and they were rumored to be in possession of a 210 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 3: great fortune, but no one knows where that is. Well, 211 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 3: now you have greed playing a part, right, And if 212 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 3: you have someone who's like, oh, I can give these 213 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 3: people hope that they can find this alleged fortune, they 214 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 3: can take advantage of that as well. So these are 215 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 3: things that we see repeated throughout history. The spiritualism movement, 216 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 3: I think is a great way of looking at it 217 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 3: in a sort of a microcosm of because it's so 218 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 3: well defined, but that same activity happens today where you 219 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 3: have people who identify, all right, let's go after the 220 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 3: basest instincts of humanity greed, fear, grief, which isn't I 221 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 3: would argue base, but same sort of thing. And by 222 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 3: targeting that, we know that people are more likely to 223 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 3: go along with whatever your scheme is. 224 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know, we see this then as now, same 225 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: as it ever was. As the old song says, we 226 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: also know that in the heyday of spiritualism, there, of 227 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: course there was constant talk, but constant talk is not 228 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: always inherently complementary. So even from the jump from way 229 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: back in the Rochester days, there were ardent critics of spiritualism. 230 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: Eventually their arguments I wouldn't even call them arguments, their 231 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: observations win out and they lead to the fall of 232 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: this larger movement. First off, the money is great. For 233 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: a second, I love that concept of tmuse psychics because 234 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: the Fox Sisters are harbinger and they are precedent. They 235 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: create an industry. They say, look, you don't have to 236 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: churn butter or whatever people are doing. You can just 237 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: be a medium, you could be a psychic. You can 238 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: make a living. 239 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 3: They're almost literally the poster children of the spiritualist movement. 240 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: One hundred percent dude. And so now we see a 241 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: old school capitalism thing happening the marketplace for mediums, and 242 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: I am trying so hard not to compare this too 243 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: much to podcasting. The marketplace for mediums becomes increasingly competitive 244 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: and everybody has to have their own sticky right. 245 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 3: It's it's oversaturated, oversaturated. 246 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 2: There we go. 247 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: So now you are walking down the street in the 248 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds and you're saying, well, I've got two dollars, 249 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: why should I go see this one lady who just 250 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: knocks on stuff and wraps like her ghosts communicate through counting. 251 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: Next Tuesday, there's another medium in town and her ghost 252 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: actually write stuff down on little cards. 253 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, or this one down the street can produce ectoplasm 254 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 3: and you won't believe where it comes from. 255 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: We were talking about this a little bit off air, 256 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: folks to decide whether or not ectoplasms should be its 257 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: own episode. We are a Peach thirteen show, so do yeah. 258 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well we'll leave out what I'm referencing because it's 259 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 3: just it's not appropriate. 260 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 2: I believe it was covered in a South Park episode 261 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 2: as well, if I'm not mistaken. 262 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: There's also you know, just the fact that cheesecloth in 263 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: and of itself is kind of gross. 264 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, But this idea of creating various effects so 265 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 3: that you can stand out among the other mediums, I 266 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 3: mean that it did become competitive where spectacle became an 267 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 3: an anticipation, an expected element of a medium session. Right. 268 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 3: You wouldn't if you were to just go to someone 269 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 3: who was just like rolling their eyes a little bit 270 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 3: and then speaking in a slightly different voice, it might 271 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 3: not impress upon you that it's money well spent compared 272 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 3: to going someplace where the table appears to levitate an 273 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 3: inch off the ground at one point, and other such 274 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 3: effects which became commonplace in these And that also became 275 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 3: an inroad for people who were thinking that sounds like 276 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 3: that's not real to be able to investigate and say. 277 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: You got yeah, the people who have to be the 278 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: fun police and come in and say, look, I love 279 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: a show. You know, I love a good time dinner 280 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: in a movie. Who doesn't? But I do want to 281 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: know whether or not you are acting in good faith. 282 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: This is where we see concurrent with the rise of 283 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: multiple self reported mediums. We see the rise of independent investigators. 284 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: These folks begin to notice a troubling pattern. Whether or 285 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: not the mediums under question really believe they're speaking with 286 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: ghost fraud is widespread. You see stuff like the Saber 287 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: Commission of eighteen eighty four to eighteen eighty seven. It's 288 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: out a pen and it started posthumously by this big 289 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: to do over at you pen. His name's Henry Siebert. 290 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 1: He believes that spiritualism is real, and so in his 291 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: will he creates funding for this commission to investigate it. 292 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: And now where the poor boffins, the sons of Sebert, 293 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: if you will, who have to investigate multiple so called mediums, 294 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 1: get this. They found evidence, provable evidence of fraud in 295 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: every single case they examined. 296 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, which makes you think that if mediums, if any 297 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 3: of those mediums were you know, legit, that Sebert himself 298 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 3: would have a lot to say. 299 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 1: Right. So, spiritualisms creating famous mediums, it's also elevating famous skeptics. 300 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: You know, Jonathan, you and Nolan Dylan and I were 301 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: chatting through our notes a little bit off air, and 302 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: we see that this investigation of spiritualism and its claims 303 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: also ruined some friendships and made some enemies like Houdini 304 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:49,479 Speaker 1: and Doyle. 305 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Harry Houdini and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. So 306 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 3: to set the stage a bit, both men had suffered 307 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 3: tragedy in their lives that drew them towards spiritualism. It's 308 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 3: just their journeys took very different paths, and Houdini's case, 309 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 3: he never really got over the loss of his mother. 310 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 3: When his mother passed away, it deeply affected him. And 311 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 3: Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's case, his son Kingsley perished during 312 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 3: the Great War, so what we would now call World 313 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:22,959 Speaker 3: War One, but back then they didn't call it that 314 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 3: because they were still optimistic. And so they both had 315 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 3: suffered great loss, and they both turned towards spiritualism because 316 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 3: it offered the possibility of comfort and closure. But Houdini 317 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 3: began to come to the conclusion that in every instance 318 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 3: that he saw, as far as spiritualism was concerned, it 319 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 3: was a matter of fraud, and Doyle still saw the possibility. 320 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 3: And the reason why this ultimately led to the dissolution 321 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 3: of their friendship is that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, his 322 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 3: wife Jeane, was a medium and offered to do a 323 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 3: session to contact Houdini's mother. Gene would do automatic writing, 324 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 3: which is where you're just moving a pen around on 325 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 3: paper and then occasionally it seems to scribble out words and. 326 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 327 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 3: And Houdini read what was written supposedly by his mother 328 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 3: through Gene, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's wife, and his conclusion 329 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 3: was that his mother was not very fluent in English, 330 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 3: but the message was written in perfect English. And so 331 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 3: there came this confrontation of Houdini saying this is balderdash 332 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 3: and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle saying, that's my wife. And 333 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 3: the friendship never recovered. And then years a few years later, 334 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 3: Houdini famously got punched to death and and in the 335 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 3: good yeah, and they never, they never was all their 336 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 3: differences and so this was like a friendship of two 337 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 3: like greats in history. Like I think kids today, even 338 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 3: if they've never seen or read anything about Houdini, have 339 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 3: heard the name like it's and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, 340 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 3: Like obviously, Sherlock continues to have a massive impact as 341 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 3: like every four or five years we get a new 342 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 3: adaptation of Sherlock Holmes or some spin off or something and. 343 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 2: Don't they realize how popular those Robert Downey Junior ones were? Yeah, 344 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: they made gazillion dollars. Some of those adaptations are good, 345 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 2: Yeah they are, I mean, particularly the Benedict Cumber Batcher. 346 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 3: Yeah. And then you have, you know, these two people 347 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 3: who were legitimate friends and then really had a massive 348 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 3: falling out over spiritualism. That to me is a fascinating story. 349 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 3: It's also I mean, it's been depicted in books and 350 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 3: plays and things like that. It's not something that's like 351 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 3: a bit of minutia. I think. I think people who 352 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 3: are an interest in this are aware of that particular 353 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 3: relationship and how it fell apart. But to me, it's 354 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 3: just one of those tragic stories of two people who 355 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 3: were really suffering and struggling with their grief, having profoundly 356 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 3: different experiences when they were seeking a way to process that, 357 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 3: and how that could tear them apart. 358 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: And to be fair, Whodini was pretty strident. Wudini was 359 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: slightly yeah, not making the point that we made in 360 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: our first episode of this series. We agree that everybody's 361 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: belief should be your own, as long as you don't 362 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: foist it upon others. Houdini, however, a few months before 363 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: he got punched to death, was so hardcore about this 364 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: skepticism that he went before the US Congress and he said, 365 00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: we should criminalize fortune telling for hire. Anybody who pretends 366 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: to in any way, how to put it, unite the separated, 367 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: should be treated as a criminal because they are either 368 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: diluted or they are grifters. And you thought most of 369 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: them were grifters. It's a shame to see such a 370 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 1: great romance break up in that way. But it is spelling, 371 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, the fall of the movement, because there are 372 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: countless allegations of fraud, not just allegations, but proof of fraud. Right, 373 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: We're finding how the actoplasma is produced. We're finding how 374 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: the table appears to move. 375 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, wet wedging the table between your toe and your 376 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 3: and the palm of your hands so that you can, 377 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 3: by lifting your foot make the table levitate. Yeah. 378 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, So it seems so basic to us now, but 379 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: we have to understand the people who believed in this. 380 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: They were no smarter nor dumber than anybody living today. 381 00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 382 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 3: So I want to give a couple points that I 383 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 3: think back up what you're saying. Like, first of all, 384 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 3: remember that a lot of the people who are seeking 385 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 3: this out were motivated to believe, right, because to not 386 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 3: believe is to give up hope. And as Noel pointed 387 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 3: out very well in our first episode, hope is an 388 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 3: incredible motivator, right, and to abandon hope is just such 389 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 3: a dark concept we don't want to really pursue that. 390 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 3: And another point is that even scientists today can be 391 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 3: fooled by these things. And you might think, well that 392 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 3: that seems weird, because you'd be you know, science is 393 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 3: meant to be rational and logical and approach this in 394 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 3: a certain way. But science also typically does not anticipate 395 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 3: that whatever you're studying is trying to fool you, right, 396 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 3: So it can Scientists can sometimes overlook cases of fraud 397 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 3: because in their usual operations there's not an actual attempt 398 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 3: to mislead taking place, Which is why I think a 399 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 3: lot of magicians actually are much better at uncovering these 400 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 3: things than scientists are, because a magician's job is to 401 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 3: fool people, so they know how this works. They know 402 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 3: how the operations work in order to fool some It's 403 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 3: why people like Pendelette and tell Her are so good 404 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 3: at that kind of thing. James Randy was really good 405 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 3: at that kind of thing. These are our people whose 406 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 3: whole existence was about fooling people, and so they know 407 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 3: the tools of the trade and they can recognize when 408 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 3: other people are using it not to entertain but to exploit. 409 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: I think that's a great point. And wait for it, 410 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: well said. 411 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, I appreciate it. 412 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: So no, it's the perfect way to put this right. 413 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,479 Speaker 1: We see, we see the motivations of the people that 414 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: we would call the participants or the rubs or the marks, 415 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: but we also see the blind spot of a lot 416 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: of potential investigators, and the nail in the coffin, or 417 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: if we want, the final knock on the seance table 418 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: comes when the Fox sisters go forward in public and say, Whoopsie, hey, 419 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 1: there's a prank. It got away from us. We were 420 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: making up the whole thing. 421 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 3: It was funny when we started, and then it quickly 422 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 3: got to a point where if we were to admit 423 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 3: that we were manufacturing all of this, we were afraid 424 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 3: of what would happen. 425 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 2: Just like Looper, just like Lucaett. 426 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: In eighteen eighty eight, Maggie and Kate Fox travel back 427 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: to the Big Apple and there a reporter offers them 428 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: a pretty significant sum of money for the time and 429 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: says we'll give you fifteen hundred dollars if you expose 430 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: your methods and you give me an exclusive on the story. 431 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: This leads to the public declaration that I would argue 432 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: ultimately sinks the movement. 433 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, mister money bags, I would argue fifteen hundred dollars, 434 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 3: it's still significant. I don't know about you, but I mean, 435 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 3: if someone were to offer me fifteen hundred dollars, I'd 436 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 3: be like, Okay, let's talk for sure. 437 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: We're also not paying Jonathan to be here. 438 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 3: That's true. I haven't been paid in so long, guys. 439 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: So Maggie in particular, Maggie Fox appears at the New 440 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: York Academy of Music on October twenty first, eighteen eighty eight. 441 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: Her sister, her younger sister Kate, is in the crowd, 442 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: and there are like two thousand people here. This is 443 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: where Maggie or Margaret, if you want to know're a 444 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: full Christian. This is where she demonstrates how those knocks 445 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: and wraps occur. 446 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 2: She produces it. 447 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: By cracking her joints, and she says, wait, my sisters 448 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: do this as well. 449 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the toes in particular because they were 450 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 2: you know, under the table, couldn't really see them. 451 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is where we find out that spiritualism isn't 452 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 3: all it's cracked up to be. 453 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 2: Dut dut du du dut yourself out, sirry nice. 454 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 3: It was nice being here. 455 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: So in in just the span of like almost less 456 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:41,719 Speaker 1: than a year. In eighteen eighty nine, Maggie recants her confession. 457 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: She signs this letter and says, essentially, my bad for 458 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: cereal spiritualism is OMG, it's so real. I was doing 459 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: this for a different reason, but I'm back on the team. 460 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: We think that happened due to social pressure and do 461 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: to financial woes, because at this point in time, it's 462 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: a lot like It's a lot like your favorite singer 463 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: songwriter saying, guys, music is BS. It's like Tom York 464 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: coming out and saying, I think guitars are made up. 465 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 2: Anyone can play guitar, he would say, and then. 466 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: He comes back, or Tom York in this example comes 467 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: back and says, ah, no, I'm kidding. No one can 468 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: play guitar but me, And it's very important exactly. 469 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, again, at this point We're talking 470 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 3: about decades of the spiritualism movement growing and evolving, and 471 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 3: entire people's livelihoods depending upon it, or or families that 472 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 3: have sought some form of closure or comfort and then 473 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 3: to be told, oh, it's all based on a lie. 474 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 3: Like you could see where people would turn on her 475 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 3: for multiple reasons, whether it was driven by greed or 476 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 3: by emotion turmoil, and why she might feel the pressure 477 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 3: to recant her confession because to do otherwise she could 478 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 3: be in financial peril, physical peril. She could just feel 479 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 3: terrible that people. 480 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 2: She could also be responsible for toppling the entire industry 481 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 2: and so many other people depend on for their livelihood. Yeah, 482 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 2: you know, God knows that could lead to some serious, 483 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 2: you know action. She could be attacked or yeah, no, 484 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 2: it's scary stuff. 485 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: Can you imagine if she had a Twitter account, you 486 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: know what I mean. 487 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 3: A one account. I don't recognize that name. Does that 488 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 3: even exist anymore? 489 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 2: You mean x dot com? The everything at all? Right? 490 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: Anyway, speaking of cesspools, the damage was done. We do 491 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: know that the Fox sisters continued on in their own 492 00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: ways to try to do tours, try to do consultations. 493 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: They never quite achieved their previous fame and mediums overall 494 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: psychics oracles as a practice. They were here before the 495 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: spiritualism movement, so they continued. There are a lot of 496 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: self reported mediums that exist today, but the spiritualism movement, 497 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: their Spiritualist movement itself, never recovered. Society moved on to 498 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: new obsessions, new interests, indeed, new moral panics, and so 499 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: far as we can tell, as we record Thursday, February 500 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: twenty sixth, twenty twenty six, no one has spoken to 501 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: a ghost that we know of, that we know of 502 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: or maybe ghosts are just like snooty to us, you guys. 503 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean like I love. I said in the 504 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 3: first episode that when I was in elementary school I 505 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 3: read up on all these things. I still love the 506 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 3: idea of ghosts and ghosts or are still some of 507 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 3: my favorite stories of all time ghost in the horror genre, 508 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 3: of which I am a major fan, ghost stories are 509 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 3: my absolute that's peak for me for horror. Like some 510 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 3: people love slasher movies, some people love gore movies. For me, 511 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 3: it's a ghost story. If it's a well made ghost story, 512 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 3: I am in and so it still speaks to me. 513 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 3: Even though I do not personally believe in ghosts and 514 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 3: have never spoken to one, at least not knowingly. Maybe 515 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 3: it overheard me, but I didn't know about it. And 516 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 3: I still love a good ghost story. I just don't. 517 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 3: I just don't believe in them. 518 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: I'm also a big horror fan, and I know you 519 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: and I have some philosophical differences in how much unfounded 520 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: belief we will allow into our lives. To you, I 521 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 1: would respond, Jonathan Strickland, aren't you already a ghost and 522 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,399 Speaker 1: your body is just a house haunt? 523 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 3: No, I'm just I'm haunting a meat sack if anyone 524 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 3: is curious. One of my favorite ghost movies is a 525 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 3: classic nineteen eighty ghost film, The Changeling with George C. Scott. 526 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 3: First two acts are incredible. The third act goes bananas. 527 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 3: But for the first two acts of that movie, I 528 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 3: could not be happier. The third act does get super 529 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 3: duper crazy, and I go with it because I've already 530 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 3: enjoyed the first two acts. But yeah, if you haven't 531 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,439 Speaker 3: seen The Changeling, seek it out. 532 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 2: I always confuse that one with The Yearling, which is 533 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 2: the one about the small horses. 534 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. 535 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,839 Speaker 3: Well, and there's also a movie called Changeling, not the Changeling, right, 536 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 3: So there's there's lots of things you can confuse it with, but. 537 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: I'll check it out. That's good, Yeah, we'll check it out. 538 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: We also have to we also want to end on well, 539 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: first off, folks, thank you for joining us, humans and 540 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: spirits alike. We wanted to end on one fair point 541 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: in the interest of objectivity. 542 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 2: This is a. 543 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: Bit of a quandary. I think it's a pickle for 544 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: all of us. A real bag of badgers. So far 545 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: as we can tell, this movement was a bunch of 546 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: flim flam. But was it all bad? 547 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 4: You know? 548 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,800 Speaker 1: Like some of the most notable figures in the spiritualism 549 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: or spiritualist movement, they used their fame to advocate for 550 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: genuine social change. A lot of these most prominent people 551 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 1: were women in a society that would typically ignore them, 552 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: so they had a path to power by saying, look, 553 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: it's not me because you guys hate women. It's the 554 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,320 Speaker 1: spirits who say that slavery is bad. It's the spirits 555 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: who say that everyone should vote. And somebody in the 556 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: back was like, are those spirits dudes? And she said, yeah, 557 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think is something positive to take 558 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:03,240 Speaker 1: from this, I. 559 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,399 Speaker 3: Think so, I like overall I would if I were 560 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 3: to weigh this in the great balance of positive versus negative, 561 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 3: I think we come down on negative more than positive. 562 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 3: But the positives are pretty profound, right Like whether or 563 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 3: not it moved the needle, at least it was something 564 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 3: that was pushing against the needle, right, So I I 565 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 3: have a conflicted feeling about this, you know, again, having 566 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 3: that love since elementary school of ghosts and stuff, when 567 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 3: I was a teenager, I had a love of the 568 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 3: skeptical side of the equation, and that's kind of where 569 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 3: I developed my worldview of critical thinking and skepticism and 570 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 3: things of that nature. So, since this is post transformation, 571 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 3: it is hard for me to reckon with the positive 572 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 3: of spiritualism. But it is impossible for me to deny 573 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:09,240 Speaker 3: that there there were such positive outcomes or positive messaging. 574 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: And maybe this is where we leave it because we 575 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: have so much more to explore regarding the role of 576 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: science and the supernatural. Regarding of course, ectoplasm. Look that 577 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: one up. Maybe not on your work computer. Uh, Noel, 578 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: I've got to commend Jonathan. I think you can join 579 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: me here as well. Of this gotta commend Jonathan for 580 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: keeping it together for two episodes. 581 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 2: No self control a little bit. 582 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: Damn it, It's time, gentlemen. 583 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 2: More recent listeners. We're sorry, I'm sorry, this is happening. 584 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 4: Welcome one and all to the most cringe worthy segment 585 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 4: in all of podcasting, as I the quizt match wits 586 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 4: gainst these ne'er do wells, Ben and Nole and Quinn. 587 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 2: Now, when you did that joke at the top of 588 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 2: the first episode, he was coming for us the whole time. 589 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 2: Now it's true. 590 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 3: This is I was biding my time, as it took 591 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 3: just a mere three hours out of my day to 592 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 3: be able to do this. 593 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland, ak the quistor, you son of a gun. 594 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,760 Speaker 1: You've returned once again to ridiculous history. Does our old 595 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:40,359 Speaker 1: game still whole? 596 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:45,359 Speaker 3: It does? I shall present to you four scenarios, three 597 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,240 Speaker 3: of which are true and one which I made up seats, 598 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,280 Speaker 3: and tis your duty to determine which of the four 599 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,719 Speaker 3: is the false one. And in this case I have 600 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:02,760 Speaker 3: given you the story is about skepticism, debunking, and belief. 601 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 3: So four separate stories that tangentially relate to the topic 602 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:10,840 Speaker 3: of discussion, and you will. 603 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 2: We're not doing this as video yet, but I just 604 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 2: want everyone to know that I have laid back like 605 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 2: I'm on a fainting couch, just to make sure that 606 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 2: I can, you know, deal with that. 607 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 3: Once we get to video, I'm going to get one 608 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 3: of those fancy lights so I get a nice dark 609 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 3: red on me when I. 610 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 2: Quizzed from underneath. 611 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, we've also almost paid off that grandfather clock. 612 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 3: Nice that we have to use. Nice. Yes, you will 613 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 3: have three minutes to discuss amongst yourselves which of the 614 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 3: four is the false one. If you need all three minutes, 615 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 3: you may you may sniff out the false one right away. 616 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 3: I will admit this time it was because I was 617 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 3: so interested in the topic, I didn't spend that much 618 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 3: time crafting a really good one. So so spoiler alert 619 00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 3: on that, and here we go Scenario number one. Lucian 620 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 3: of Samosata was an early, very early skeptic. He was 621 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 3: born sometime around one hundred and twenty five in the 622 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,280 Speaker 3: Common era in Syria. He was known to be quite 623 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 3: the smartass, with works that contained heaps of sarcasm. Lucian 624 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 3: didn't shy away from calling out fraud and superstition and 625 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 3: His works include The Dialogues of the Gods, a collection 626 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 3: of satirical pieces about the Greek pantheon. But my favorite 627 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 3: target of his was Alexander, a Greek man who styled 628 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 3: himself a mystic and oracle. Lucian described him as a 629 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 3: fraud and thief. Moreover, he claims that Alexander would regularly 630 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 3: rile up his followers to go put the hurt on 631 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 3: anyone whom he identified as being trouble. Lucian's work exposed 632 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,240 Speaker 3: Alexander as a false prophet, a label I suspect Lucian 633 00:41:54,239 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 3: would apply to all prophets. Scenario the second. In eighteen 634 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 3: thirty six, Edgar Allan Poe penned an essay titled Meltzel's 635 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 3: Chess Player. This piece set out to debunk the famous 636 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 3: mechanical Turk Device, an automaton that appeared to play chess. 637 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 3: It was originally built by Johann Wolfgang Ritter von Kippelin 638 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:24,839 Speaker 3: de pasmand a century earlier Johann well done, thank you. 639 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 3: Johann Wolffi wasn't really that interested in presenting his invention 640 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 3: as the genuine article, but after his death, subsequent owners 641 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 3: were not so scrupulous. Meltzel would present the device as 642 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 3: an actual chess playing automaton capable of winning most chess games. 643 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,760 Speaker 3: Poe suspected that a person was inside the device doing 644 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 3: all the playing, though his reasoning was a bit off. 645 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 3: Poe believed that because the turk would occasionally lose again, 646 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 3: there had to be a human controlling it, because machines 647 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 3: would always play perfectly Scenario number three. Back in eighteen sixty, 648 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 3: Jules Vern wrote a novel titled Paris in the twentieth Century. 649 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,800 Speaker 3: It was set in gay Paris in nineteen sixty one 650 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 3: century in Verne's future. It would not see publication until 651 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety four, having been initially suppressed and then sort 652 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 3: of just set aside. In the novel, Vern poses that 653 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 3: technological advancements will strip away superstition in Paris, revealing beyond 654 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 3: deniability that there is no supernatural element in the world. 655 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,799 Speaker 3: As a result of machines doing all the work and 656 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,360 Speaker 3: Parisians having a clear view of reality, people are free 657 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 3: to pursue their passions and Paris becomes the nexus of 658 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 3: expression and creativity. Vern appears to argue that opportunists who 659 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,960 Speaker 3: depend upon naive and gullible followers are a major hurdle 660 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,240 Speaker 3: for progress. Now, scenario number four, how about a tale 661 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 3: of debunking the debunkers. In his collection of works titled 662 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 3: The History of Spiritualism, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was quick 663 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,839 Speaker 3: to dismiss skeptics and critics of the spiritualist movement. In 664 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 3: his introduction, he went so far to say, and I'm 665 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 3: paraphrasing here that Frank Podmore cherry picked data points and 666 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,880 Speaker 3: facts to support a skeptical view of mediums and such, 667 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 3: while he called Joseph McCabe's work that was titled Spiritualism 668 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 3: a Popular History an absolute quote unquote travesty because of 669 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 3: McCabe's insistence that various practitioners were in fact fraudsters. Doyle 670 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,320 Speaker 3: thus makes his bias undeniably clear in the introduction of 671 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 3: his work. It's a bit of a blow for those 672 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 3: of us who thought of Doyle as a champion of rationality. 673 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 3: Those are your four scenarios. Gentlemen. You may ask me 674 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,960 Speaker 3: a question if you wish, you have to preface your 675 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,359 Speaker 3: question with I didn't think this one through. Obviously, you'll 676 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 3: need to preface your question with is that a knock? 677 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,319 Speaker 3: I hear the door? And then you can ask me 678 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 3: start your time. 679 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm running to our grandfather clock that we spent 680 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:13,840 Speaker 1: way too much of our budget on. Okay, timers started. 681 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,719 Speaker 2: Slam dunked it? Ben, jeez, Louise, let's see. I need 682 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 2: a rehash of the first one. Frankly, yes, if that's okay, 683 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 2: hold on, God a knock? Is that a knock? Guy? 684 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 2: Here upon the close? Okay? Thank you? 685 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,960 Speaker 3: All right, so you'll your quick synopsis. You have an 686 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:40,440 Speaker 3: ancient Syrian skeptic, Lucien of Sammasata, who debunked a man 687 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 3: named Alexander who claimed to be a prophet, and proved 688 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 3: or attempted to prove through various writings that Alexander was 689 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 3: just a fraud who got his followers to beat up 690 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 3: anybody who said otherwise. 691 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 2: Okay't ben, is that a knock? I hear at the doors? 692 00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 3: Mister Bolin? 693 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:05,359 Speaker 1: All right? Uh, question for you, Quizzles, is out of 694 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: these four scenarios, are is the fake one totally fake? 695 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,080 Speaker 1: Or does it combine elements of truth? 696 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,279 Speaker 3: I mean there are elements of truth, but the central 697 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:17,879 Speaker 3: point is fake. 698 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,400 Speaker 2: Okay, No, I think it's number one. I think it's 699 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,239 Speaker 2: number one too, but I do just want to take 700 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 2: a minute to say that I really appreciated some of 701 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,480 Speaker 2: the I don't know the content of these having so 702 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,360 Speaker 2: much in common with what's going on in the world 703 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 2: right now, Like the the idea of Poe criticizing the 704 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 2: mechanical turk and saying that it has to be you know, 705 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 2: run by a human. That's like what's going on with 706 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,640 Speaker 2: those Tesla bots bartending in the like, you know, being 707 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 2: being remote control from the room bartenders. 708 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 709 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a whole events where you know, there 710 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:54,000 Speaker 2: were these Tesla robots tending bar and being waiters, and 711 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 2: it was presented as though they were fully automatic or 712 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:01,719 Speaker 2: fully you know, self sufficient, but they were in fact 713 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 2: being remote controlled by people from a nearby. 714 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 3: Ipedal robots that included them dancing on the dance floor, 715 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,520 Speaker 3: and it turned out that they were just sort of connected. 716 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 3: It was like motion capture in a way. 717 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 2: Mm hmm, exactly. Uh. And then there was another one, 718 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:23,279 Speaker 2: the Jewels Vern one really reminded me of a lot 719 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:24,880 Speaker 2: of the things that are going on right now in 720 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:31,520 Speaker 2: terms of I don't know, just automation of everything, and like, 721 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,719 Speaker 2: do you think what was his perspective again that it 722 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 2: was good, Yes, that like it would, it would. 723 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 3: That without without the burden of work, without the burden 724 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 3: of work, and having superstition stripped away, it meant that 725 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,640 Speaker 3: we were free to pursue whatever passions we might have 726 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 3: and not have to worry about the drudgery of day 727 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,240 Speaker 3: to day life or being misled by someone who's preying 728 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,160 Speaker 3: upon our baser instincts. 729 00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 2: We talked about that recently, ben on stuff that I 730 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,320 Speaker 2: want you to know, because the only way that works 731 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,960 Speaker 2: is in this kind of utopia fied version of that 732 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 2: scenario where everyone gets paid some sort of universal wage 733 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,759 Speaker 2: and able to persist or subsist without working. And the 734 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 2: scene that we are, Yeah, we're at a place now 735 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 2: where it's not really designed that way because the folks 736 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 2: that are benefiting are the ones that are rolling out 737 00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,840 Speaker 2: all this technology without really thinking it through very well. 738 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,720 Speaker 1: And we are time we're locking it in. Okay, three 739 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,960 Speaker 1: one one number one. 740 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 3: Sorry, gentlemen, you have picked the wrong answer, for there 741 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:42,200 Speaker 3: really was a Syrian skeptic named Lucian of Samosata who 742 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:48,000 Speaker 3: really did debunk a prophet, a so called prophet named Alexander, 743 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:50,440 Speaker 3: and in fact, the only reason we really know anything 744 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,880 Speaker 3: about Alexander at all is because of Lucian's smartass writings 745 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:55,520 Speaker 3: about him. 746 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 1: Okay, but the pole thing is true. The thing is 747 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,480 Speaker 1: absolutely true, is absolutely true, I remember. 748 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,880 Speaker 3: Although he may have also plagiarized some of his work. 749 00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,640 Speaker 2: I mean, can I just say, though, that the Lucian 750 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,480 Speaker 2: thing threw me because I just assumed that everyone believed 751 00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,920 Speaker 2: in every prophet back then. You know that, like, what 752 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,399 Speaker 2: was the metric with which you would use to quote 753 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 2: unquote debunk a prophet? 754 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,680 Speaker 3: He was he essentially was saying that that Alexander was 755 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:28,319 Speaker 3: preying upon people's desire to believe. He was saying that 756 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,560 Speaker 3: he was he was builking people out of money in 757 00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,759 Speaker 3: order to tell them things they wanted to hear. And 758 00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,359 Speaker 3: he was very much a skeptic about everything, not just 759 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,120 Speaker 3: this prophet. I mean, he, like I said, he did 760 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 3: write a work that was a satire about a dialogue 761 00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,360 Speaker 3: of the gods of the Greek pantheon that he just 762 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,920 Speaker 3: used to point out the absurdities inherent in the mythology. 763 00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,400 Speaker 3: So he was all about bringing down belief systems. Yes, 764 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 3: which one was the false one? Jules vern So here's 765 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,360 Speaker 3: the thing. Paris in the twentieth century is an actual novel. 766 00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,759 Speaker 3: It was written in eighteen sixty. It was well or 767 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,360 Speaker 3: initially it was suppressed, and then it was not pushed 768 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,560 Speaker 3: toward publication until nineteen ninety four. We didn't get an 769 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:23,279 Speaker 3: English edition until ninety six. But that story is very 770 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,520 Speaker 3: different from the one I described. In this vision of 771 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:32,600 Speaker 3: the future, there is a largely automated society, but everyone's 772 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,400 Speaker 3: working in things like factories. No one has any ambition. 773 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 3: Art does not exist. The main character is someone who 774 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,960 Speaker 3: wishes to be a poet, but there is no place 775 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 3: for poetry in this future. That everything is very utilitarian 776 00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,920 Speaker 3: and pragmatic. There's no music, there's no poetry, and so 777 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,879 Speaker 3: it's a very grim view of the world. But there 778 00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:00,000 Speaker 3: is quite a bit that's predicted that does in fact exis, 779 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,000 Speaker 3: you know, things like internal combustion engine vehicles, for example, 780 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:08,719 Speaker 3: a part of the landscape of this story. So the 781 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 3: reason why it was suppressed is that his agent felt 782 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,719 Speaker 3: it was too much of a bummer to. 783 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:16,479 Speaker 2: Put it to print. 784 00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,239 Speaker 1: It's never stopped us, but I'll tell you what this 785 00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,879 Speaker 1: is the opposite of a bummer. Well played and I'm 786 00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,480 Speaker 1: not going to stress you on a technicality, but you've 787 00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:31,280 Speaker 1: you've won the day for today, which means you must 788 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:36,440 Speaker 1: return again as Jonathan Strickland or as the Quister. Personally, 789 00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:41,440 Speaker 1: I like the first guy A little bit more like fifty, 790 00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,560 Speaker 1: A little sour, a little sweet. You like some hide 791 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:45,280 Speaker 1: with your jekyl. 792 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:47,520 Speaker 2: I do, well. 793 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,680 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us, folks. Big big 794 00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:57,480 Speaker 1: thanks to our guest super producer, Dyland Fagan. Big thanks 795 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 1: of course to you, Jonathan, big thanks to who else, 796 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:01,600 Speaker 1: who else? 797 00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:06,720 Speaker 2: Well, geez Ben, We've got Rachel the Big spin a Glance. 798 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,040 Speaker 2: We've got Chris Frosciotis and he's Jeff goes here in spirit, 799 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:12,560 Speaker 2: and I do believe we have the rude dudes over 800 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:13,279 Speaker 2: ridiculous crime. 801 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:19,319 Speaker 1: And thanks to you as well, Noel, you and all 802 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:20,799 Speaker 1: the ghosts Lollo Meet. 803 00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,280 Speaker 2: Thanks to you too, Ben. We'll see you next time, folks. 804 00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,920 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 805 00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.