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Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I and

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Speaker 1: Matt and today we're talking the unspoken rules of career

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Speaker 1: success with Gore King. Getting ahead in life and succeeding

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Speaker 1: in your career depends on just a lot more than

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Speaker 1: doing a great job. Just because you're a competent software

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Speaker 1: engineer or a nurse or or whatever it is that

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Speaker 1: you do, that doesn't mean that you will automatically climb

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Speaker 1: the ranks and see your salary increase with promotions, with

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Speaker 1: additional responsibility. And that's because there are things that managers

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Speaker 1: and things that bosses expect but they never explained to you.

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Speaker 1: This is the basis for Gorik Ng's best selling book,

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Speaker 1: The Unspoken Rules Secrets to Starting your Career off Right.

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Speaker 1: Gorick is a career advisor at Harvard focusing on coaching

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Speaker 1: first generation low income students. But then before that, he

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Speaker 1: gained plenty of professional experience from working in management, consulting,

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Speaker 1: investment banking, and as a researcher with the Harvard Business School.

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Speaker 1: But regardless of your specific job, works added to discuss

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Speaker 1: the different unspoken ways that you can find success in

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Speaker 1: your career. Go Rick, thank you for joining us today

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Speaker 1: on the podcast, Joel Matt, thanks so much for having

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Speaker 1: me throw the be here. Yeah, well we're thrilled to

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Speaker 1: have you go wreck and yeah, this is gonna be

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Speaker 1: really I think a really interesting conversation. Your research and

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Speaker 1: your history are just gonna make for really like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of good stuff to cover here today.

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Speaker 1: But before we get into some of that stuff, I

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Speaker 1: want to know Matt and I we like craft beer,

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Speaker 1: as you know, and uh, it is something that we

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Speaker 1: spend a decent bit of money on in the here

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Speaker 1: and now while trying to save and invest well for

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Speaker 1: the future. So, yeah, do you have something like that

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Speaker 1: in your life? A splurge that your make, you're making

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Speaker 1: while you're also prioritizing putting some money away in your

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Speaker 1: savings account and also like in those investment accounts. It

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Speaker 1: has to be ice cream. I like to work for

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Speaker 1: my ice cream, so it needs to be chunky, need

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Speaker 1: to put in some effort for it to go down. Wait,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean that you have like a favorite

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Speaker 1: brand or something like that. Yeah, you said it needs

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Speaker 1: to be chunky. What do you mean that there's something

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Speaker 1: like Moose tracks or what? Yeah, like Moose tracks, anything

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Speaker 1: that I need to chew on. And funny, funny you say,

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Speaker 1: what does chunky mean? Because I've actually gotten that question

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Speaker 1: from a number of I've ever heard ice cream described

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Speaker 1: as chunky before, but you're talking about in the beer world,

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Speaker 1: which they call them ad junks. So all the additional

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Speaker 1: bits of candy or chocolate, moose tracks, butterfinger, that kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff. That's I guess that's what you're looking for

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Speaker 1: in your ice cream. Yes, exactly. And maybe I'm in

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Speaker 1: search of a new adjective then, because I've been confusing

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Speaker 1: a lot of people with my use of the word chunky. Well,

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Speaker 1: I guess it's the opposite of Down here, we've got

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Speaker 1: a lot of Chick fil A's and ice Dream is

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Speaker 1: the ice cream that they serve, and it's just a

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Speaker 1: super smooth, very creamy, like the hand turned stuff that

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Speaker 1: your grandmother's it does. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of cut

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Speaker 1: like that, like an old school homemade flavor going on

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Speaker 1: with it. But it's funny that you mentioned that because

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Speaker 1: I guess it was a couple of months ago we

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Speaker 1: talked with Clark Howard and he also that's his splurge.

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Speaker 1: He trying to hook them up and the top dollar

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Speaker 1: on really nice ice cream. So you two how to

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Speaker 1: get together do a little tour of the country and

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Speaker 1: visit all the best ice cream spots. Uh yeah, but Gary,

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Speaker 1: let's we want to dig into your background just a

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Speaker 1: little bit before we kind of start talking about your book,

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Speaker 1: your career expertise. It basically started when you were pretty young,

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Speaker 1: at the age of fourteen. Can you share that story

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Speaker 1: with us? It sounds good. Yeah, it's kind of weird

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Speaker 1: that it all began back when most of us, I

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Speaker 1: certainly were focused on playing video games more so than

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Speaker 1: building our careers. Where I was fourteen years old and

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Speaker 1: my mom, who is a single mother, came home with

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Speaker 1: a pink slip and it said that she was laid

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Speaker 1: off from the sewing machine factory job that she had

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Speaker 1: held since she was twelve years old. And I, as

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Speaker 1: the person in the house who knew how to speak

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Speaker 1: English and get onto the internet, became the person to

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Speaker 1: step up. And so I ended up spending recesses learning

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Speaker 1: to write resumes and cover letters, afternoons at the public

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Speaker 1: library looking for jobs, and evenings coaching my mom. I

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Speaker 1: put very thick, italicized bolded quotes around coach. It was

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Speaker 1: really the blind leading of blind there Um, we applied

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Speaker 1: to hundreds of jobs and didn't end up getting any callbacks,

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Speaker 1: where my mom ended up actually returning to school, getting

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Speaker 1: an early childcare assistant certificate, and so things worked out.

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Speaker 1: But it was that experience that led to me wondering

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Speaker 1: what was I missing? How could I, as someone who

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Speaker 1: did well in school, who saw myself as resourceful, not

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Speaker 1: be able to help my mom get back on her feet.

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Speaker 1: And it took a number of years for me to

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Speaker 1: find the answer. And it actually took a few experience

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Speaker 1: ass after that to find the answer, one of which

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Speaker 1: came in high school where I met a student from

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Speaker 1: another school who had applied to Yale University and had

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Speaker 1: gotten in, And over the course of getting to know

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Speaker 1: her and having her take me under her wings, I

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Speaker 1: learned that getting into college required a lot more than

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Speaker 1: just tossing over an essay and hoping for the best.

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Speaker 1: There was a certain style of essay that people were expecting.

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Speaker 1: There's a certain way of holding your hands your teacher's

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Speaker 1: hands through the admissions process, the recommendation process that no

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Speaker 1: one really tells you about. And these unspoken rules as

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Speaker 1: I call them now ended up working. I ended up

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Speaker 1: becoming the first of my family to go to Harvard,

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Speaker 1: to to go to college in general, but was lucky

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Speaker 1: enough to have gotten into Harvard as an undergraduate. And

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Speaker 1: when I was at Harvard, it was the first time

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Speaker 1: that I was within such close proximity to so many

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Speaker 1: people who could call their parents, doctors and lawyers and senators,

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Speaker 1: people that I would read about in the newspapers but

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Speaker 1: I didn't even know I could interact with. And over

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Speaker 1: the course of getting to know these classmates and friends,

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Speaker 1: started realizing that there's really this informal curriculum that some

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Speaker 1: of us end up getting over the dinner table from

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Speaker 1: our parents, mentors, siblings, that many more of us, folks

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Speaker 1: from my background, for example, end up never getting and

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Speaker 1: end up having to learn through trial and error and

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Speaker 1: so over the course of my early career into this day,

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Speaker 1: I started reflecting on, Wow, well, what responsibility do I

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Speaker 1: have to hopefully pay a smoother path for people coming

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Speaker 1: after me? And that all has led to me writing

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Speaker 1: this book and hoping to spend the next stretch of

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Speaker 1: my career paving a smoother path for people coming after me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in your book, you actually say that there are insiders

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Speaker 1: and outsiders, even in like the prestigious world of a

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Speaker 1: college like Harvard, and you felt like an outsider. So

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Speaker 1: why was that? Like, what what were those what was

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Speaker 1: causing those feelings? Yeah, it was this feeling of looking

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Speaker 1: left looking right, almost as if it were a middle

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Speaker 1: school dance, and seeing everyone grooving on the dance floor

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Speaker 1: and you looking left looking right and standing there awkwardly

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Speaker 1: being like, there's something I'm missing here. And I gotta

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Speaker 1: say I totally identify with that because that sounds like

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Speaker 1: exactly what happened to me in seventh grade. So you

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Speaker 1: and I both y'all just did there awkwardly, and me

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Speaker 1: and my friend Javier, we're just playing tag. Where were

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Speaker 1: the idiot sixth graders? That Everyone's just like, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing? This is the dance. It happens on a

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Speaker 1: regular basis at a higher education institution. It happens all

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Speaker 1: the time in in the workplace, and it manifests itself

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Speaker 1: in the form of in in college, for example, some

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Speaker 1: students really knowing how to navigate the system and building

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Speaker 1: good relationship with their with their professors, knowing how to

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Speaker 1: navigate recruiting events and job fairs, and getting jobs that

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Speaker 1: aren't even advertised. And then in the workplace, you have

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Speaker 1: some folks who put their heads down and work hard

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Speaker 1: and wonder why they're not getting that promotion or that

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Speaker 1: high profile project. Meanwhile, someone else who may be working

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Speaker 1: less hard, or less or or less competent end up

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Speaker 1: getting all that visibility. It's not a matter of what

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a matter of who you know when.

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Speaker 1: It's not a matter of whether you're just simply fulfilling

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Speaker 1: the job description that you've been assigned, But it's about

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Speaker 1: how you go above and beyond in these unspoken, unwritten ways. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and even so, like you endured some real hardships

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Speaker 1: growing up, and yeah, like you said, it wasn't the

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Speaker 1: smoothest path for you to get where you are now

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Speaker 1: even though you were a hard worker. You know, you're

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Speaker 1: we're talking about these unspoken rules, Like it's almost as

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Speaker 1: if like you were learning proper etiquette. Uh, It's it's

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Speaker 1: not something that it's necessarily directly it's hot, but it's

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Speaker 1: something that sometimes folks are able to learn either second

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Speaker 1: hand or they see it demonstrated, or there's there's somebody

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Speaker 1: else in their life that is able to kind of

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Speaker 1: meant for them or shepherd them. But yeah, like I

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Speaker 1: don't know. The more we kind of dove in your book,

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Speaker 1: I was just like, man, this really feels like being

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Speaker 1: taught like manners or or just proper etiquete or like

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Speaker 1: Southern etiquette or something different that isn't as widespread as

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Speaker 1: you would expect. Yeah, And the thing about so many

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Speaker 1: of these unspoken rules is they can come across as

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Speaker 1: common sense. And I've gotten that feedback from some people

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Speaker 1: who would say, why are you just writing down common sense?

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Speaker 1: And it actually led to a point where I was

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Speaker 1: contemplating the subtitle of of the book and one of

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Speaker 1: the options of like a couple dozen was common sense.

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Speaker 1: That's only common sense looking back. And that's how I

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Speaker 1: feel about so many of these rules. Yeah, that's yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting some of them, Like when I'm reading them,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense

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Speaker 1: intuitively to me. But you're probably right, But part of

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Speaker 1: it is because of like the water x Wamen, like

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Speaker 1: how I grew up. Well, I think it probably too

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Speaker 1: depends on just the kind of work that you're doing.

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Speaker 1: I think there might be a certain professions, certain fields

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Speaker 1: where maybe interacting with other folks isn't as important. So

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Speaker 1: there maybe there is less reading people's emotions or understanding

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Speaker 1: communication style, different things like that, And maybe it might

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Speaker 1: only be about the work. But I think as our

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Speaker 1: world evolves, it's clear that it's not just about doing

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Speaker 1: really good work. You have to be able to integrate

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Speaker 1: into these systems, uh, and to do that well in

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Speaker 1: order to be successful. Yeah, and and go right now,

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Speaker 1: you help first generation low income students so that they

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Speaker 1: don't have to go through like trial and error scenarios, right,

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Speaker 1: like some of the some of the ones that you

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Speaker 1: went through in your life. And what would you say, like,

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Speaker 1: are navigating these unspoken rules like the biggest hurdles that

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Speaker 1: they faced when it comes to succeeding in the workplace. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's say the unspoken rules are a big piece. I'd

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Speaker 1: say Another piece is around confidence and a sentence I

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Speaker 1: often find myself saying to to first gen low income

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Speaker 1: college students and those who are coming from underrepresented backgrounds

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Speaker 1: is that there's a difference between confidence and competence. Where

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Speaker 1: competence is how much you know and can do. Confidence

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Speaker 1: is how much you think you know and can do

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Speaker 1: and you need both. Where I often hear stories of people,

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Speaker 1: and I was certainly in this situation myself where you're

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Speaker 1: in a meeting and you have this idea that you

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Speaker 1: want to bring up, but you're thinking to yourself and

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Speaker 1: you have a self talk of hm, is this a

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Speaker 1: stupid comment? Or is this common sense? And so you're

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Speaker 1: you're debating with yourself constantly about is even worth raising

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Speaker 1: this idea? And five minutes later, someone else says the

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Speaker 1: exact same thing and gets all the credit. In those situations,

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Speaker 1: I've certainly found myself in this situation a fair bit,

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Speaker 1: and I start realizing, wait a second, is it the

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Speaker 1: case that this actually was a smarter comment than I

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Speaker 1: had thought? And or this other person may just have

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Speaker 1: lower expectations than I do for what makes a smart comment,

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Speaker 1: And in having lower standards, they they ended up getting

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Speaker 1: all the credit and getting ahead. That's the difference between

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Speaker 1: competence and confidence. Yeah, it's almost as if overthinking it

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Speaker 1: can just yeah sometimes. Uh. How many of these unspoken

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Speaker 1: rules do you think have to do with just cultural

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Speaker 1: differences between whether it be just the different backgrounds that

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Speaker 1: families have or or where individuals are raised. In the

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Speaker 1: United States, that's a big one for sure, um, and

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Speaker 1: I would say that these unspoken rules are becoming more

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Speaker 1: and more important as companies have more global teams and

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Speaker 1: are hiring folks from very different backgrounds, where some of

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Speaker 1: these cultural norms may not have permeated the waters in

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Speaker 1: the same way that they may have permeated the waters

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Speaker 1: for for for for these so called insiders. And so

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Speaker 1: when I think of working cultures across geography, is certainly

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Speaker 1: there are some that are more hierarchical, where you speak

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Speaker 1: when spoken to. There are others that are less hierarchical,

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Speaker 1: where you're expected to speak up, can ribute, disagree with

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Speaker 1: your manager, and in fact disagreement is is encouraged and

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Speaker 1: and rewarded. And then they're also uh. As I think

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Speaker 1: about my Asian upbringing, for example, certainly there's this unspoken

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Speaker 1: norm or hidden expectation that you respect your elders, and

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Speaker 1: when someone who is higher ranking, older, more experienced, is speaking,

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Speaker 1: you'd wait your turn, and you'd not only just wait

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Speaker 1: your turn, but you'd withhold your comments until you're called upon,

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Speaker 1: if you are even called upon. And so there is

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Speaker 1: some unlearning and relearning. That's not to say that there's

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Speaker 1: a right or wrong way of doing things. To your point,

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Speaker 1: it's very much a matter of cultural differences, where in

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Speaker 1: American working culture, because of this difference between confidence and competence,

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Speaker 1: the people who make it up to the top aren't

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Speaker 1: necessarily the most competent. They might just be the most confident.

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Speaker 1: And so there is this this phenomenon where the system

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Speaker 1: as it stands, at least in American corporate life, doesn't

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Speaker 1: always reward people for the characteristics that organizations really care about.

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Speaker 1: M Yeah, that's interesting. Well, we we want to talk

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Speaker 1: more about the unspoken rules and you know, get into

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Speaker 1: some of what they are and talk about how you

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Speaker 1: can you know, think about those so that you can

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Speaker 1: improve your work habits inside of the place where you're working.

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Speaker 1: And we'll get to yea some more questions with Gorik

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Speaker 1: about that right after this break. All right, we're back.

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Speaker 1: We're speaking with go working about his book The Unspoken

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Speaker 1: Rules of Career Success as our topic today, and your

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Speaker 1: book is it's kind of a how to guide. There

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Speaker 1: are things like we like we said earlier that like

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Speaker 1: managers expect you to implicitly know, but many of these

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Speaker 1: things are never explo Lea's hot in your first chapter

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Speaker 1: in your book, it's it's all about the three cs.

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Speaker 1: You've already mentioned one of them, which is competence, but

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Speaker 1: the other ones are commitment and compatibility. You sort of

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Speaker 1: introduced this as the framework for the book, And so

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Speaker 1: why do you feel that it is just so important

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Speaker 1: to prove yourself in all three of these areas? Specifically, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's because when we show up in the workplace and

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Speaker 1: I define workplace as in an interview, in your first

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Speaker 1: day in a new role, and frankly thereafter until you retire,

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Speaker 1: the people around you, your clients, partners, managers, coworkers, they're

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Speaker 1: sizing you up and they're asking themselves three questions. Question

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Speaker 1: one is can you do this job well? Which is competence.

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Speaker 1: Question two is are you excited to be here? Which

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Speaker 1: is commitment? And question three is do we get along?

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Speaker 1: Which is compatibility? Competence, commitment, compatibility. The three c's your job, frankly,

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Speaker 1: all of our jobs, it's to convince the people around

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Speaker 1: us to answer yes to all three questions all the time. Um,

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Speaker 1: and I'll maybe augment my my statement earlier by saying

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Speaker 1: that supposedly the three c's count in the realm of

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Speaker 1: dating as well, so it may not just be a

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Speaker 1: workplace concept, could it potentially be a life concept. That's

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Speaker 1: something that's a more recent shower thought for you. Now, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like, actually I heard you refer to like

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Speaker 1: marriage advice and how building compatibility with co workers can

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Speaker 1: be similar to building compatibility inside of like a long

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Speaker 1: term partnership, Like, yeah, do you think there are some

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Speaker 1: similarities there? Yeah, I'm thrilled you're mentioning this because this

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Speaker 1: is actually one of my favorite ideas from the book,

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Speaker 1: even though I don't spend all that much time talking

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Speaker 1: about it. It's this idea of bids, which is an

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Speaker 1: idea that was created by a psychologist and a marriage

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Speaker 1: expert named Dr John Gottman. Dr John Gottman observed couples

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Speaker 1: that stay together and have happy marriages and compared them

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Speaker 1: to couples who end up separating. And his question was

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Speaker 1: what separates those who stayed together from those who separate,

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Speaker 1: and he found that the lowest common denominator it was

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Speaker 1: something called bids. Where I'll illustrate it with an example

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Speaker 1: where if your significant other says something like I'm hungry,

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Speaker 1: and let's say you're driving down the freeway, You've got

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Speaker 1: three options you can either pull off of the McDonald's

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Speaker 1: this one right exactly, you can ignore the bid, so

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Speaker 1: just keep driving, pretend as if they didn't say anything.

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Speaker 1: Or the third one is you can smack down that

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Speaker 1: bid and you can say, didn't you just eat? Or

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Speaker 1: aren't you trying to lose weight? Don't do that one?

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Speaker 1: And uh, as you might be able to guess there's

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Speaker 1: a right answer to to this question. I suspect that

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Speaker 1: you all are thinking of the right answer now, but

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Speaker 1: just to toss it back to you, what's your guess?

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Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, what you're feeling like? Uh like something?

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Speaker 1: I'm like very like analytical. It's all right, are you

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Speaker 1: hungry in like the next two minutes? Hungry? Are you

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Speaker 1: talking in like the next two hours? You can run

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Speaker 1: along trip, you know, sometimes you just want to make

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Speaker 1: good time, or you might be like, I brought a

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Speaker 1: granola bar. It's in my backpack, let me grab before

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Speaker 1: you Exactly, so I can already tell that you're you're

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Speaker 1: in positive relationship territory, because according to this research, the

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Speaker 1: right answer is to recognize the bid, which you both

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Speaker 1: have done, and to positively embrace this bid, which you

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Speaker 1: have also both done, and this is what is the

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Speaker 1: lowest common denominator to what makes for a happy relationship

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Speaker 1: in marriage. And yes, this is a marriage concept, but

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Speaker 1: as I think about relationship building more broadly and career

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Speaker 1: building more broadly, I think we can translate this idea

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Speaker 1: of bidding into the workplace, where every email, every meeting

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Speaker 1: that you're invited to, every exchange of eye contact, that

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Speaker 1: too is a bid. It's an invitation. It's a hidden

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Speaker 1: opportunity for you to step up, build a relationship that

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Speaker 1: may not have otherwise existed, make an impact, and potentially

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Speaker 1: grow your career. And so this bidding idea is one

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Speaker 1: that I've been thinking about a lot because and and

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Speaker 1: maybe this comes back to the first generation low income

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Speaker 1: college students that that I advise at Harvard, where I

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Speaker 1: can't help but think that we all, over the course

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Speaker 1: of our lives, are almost walking down a similar art

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Speaker 1: gallery together, and we're all looking at the same painting,

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Speaker 1: but we're coming to two different conclusions around what this

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Speaker 1: painting depicts. One of us could see this painting and

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Speaker 1: see the boats in the foreground or the sunset in

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Speaker 1: the background. Someone else could see the trees in the distance.

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Speaker 1: And I think of this walking down an art gallery

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Speaker 1: slash observing a painting comparison is apt for real life

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Speaker 1: because over the course of our everyday lives, we're going

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Speaker 1: to be faced with so many bids, so many opportunities.

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Speaker 1: But it takes a special mindset and awareness to be

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Speaker 1: able to recognize these bids and to embrace these bits.

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Speaker 1: That's the key to to getting in and getting ahead.

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Speaker 1: That's going to be the key to working with others, especially.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess if you're constantly slamming down there bid, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's not gonna go well, doesn't lead to very good

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Speaker 1: team work. And maybe if you're working by yourself, that's

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Speaker 1: something that you don't have to consider quite as much.

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Speaker 1: But certainly if you're working with a partner or working

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Speaker 1: on a team, you've got to keep that in mind. Gorik.

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Speaker 1: One of the unspoken rules that you mentioned in your

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Speaker 1: book proactivity, What does that look like? Why? Why is

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Speaker 1: this so important when it comes to getting ahead in

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Speaker 1: your career? M H. Well, for the early career, folks,

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Speaker 1: I I like to say that school is about keeping up,

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Speaker 1: so not procrastinating, whereas work in life is about stepping up.

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Speaker 1: It's about going the extra mile. It's about looking around corners,

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Speaker 1: it's about asking how can I be helpful and then

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Speaker 1: ultimately being helpful. And when it comes to a getting

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Speaker 1: ahead in the workplace, whether you're striving for a promotion,

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Speaker 1: more important responsibilities, the respect of your co workers, better relationships,

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Speaker 1: and expanded network. So much of this comes down to

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Speaker 1: not just being reactive but proactive, So being the person

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Speaker 1: that says, hey, I noticed this, how can I be helpful?

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Speaker 1: Or I noticed this? How we considered that? Or hey,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about options A, B and C. I

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Speaker 1: was thinking of B what do you think? Which is

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Speaker 1: a very different way of interacting with your coworkers compared

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Speaker 1: to saying, hey, Joel, Matt, what do we do next,

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Speaker 1: in which case a lot of managers will say, well,

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Speaker 1: what do you think? You kind of want to have

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Speaker 1: that be able to offer up a solution from the

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Speaker 1: get go right, and it is one of these unspoken

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Speaker 1: norms in the workplace where these high performers at work

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Speaker 1: are ones who aren't just going to their managers and

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Speaker 1: co workers with problems, but are coming to the table

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Speaker 1: with proposals and solutions. A part of being proactive is

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Speaker 1: thinking ahead and having the ability to tell your own

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Speaker 1: story and tell it well. And you kind of talk

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Speaker 1: about that in the book. Why do you feel like

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Speaker 1: that is so important? And especially some of us maybe

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Speaker 1: we're raised in cultures where talking about ourselves was something

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Speaker 1: that was frowned on. It's always like you're always defecting.

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Speaker 1: But you have to be able to talk about yourself well, right, yes,

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Speaker 1: And it's the first question you'll get in every interview,

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Speaker 1: which is which is, tell me about yourself. As they're

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Speaker 1: sitting down in the chairs, tell me about yourself. I

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Speaker 1: can see the hiring manager right now, exactly. And it's

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Speaker 1: it's a nerve racking question because if you just take

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Speaker 1: it at face value, which I did, and so many

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Speaker 1: students that I advised still do, which is, okay, tell

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Speaker 1: you about myself. So do you want to know about

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Speaker 1: my hometown? Are you asking about my hobbies? What I

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Speaker 1: ate for breakfast this morning? It's this ambiguous question, but

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Speaker 1: there is an unspoken way of answering this question, which

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Speaker 1: is in the form of what's called the hero's journey,

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Speaker 1: which is a concept by Joseph Campbell where he looked

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Speaker 1: at the the tales that have lasted the test of

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Speaker 1: time and he's looked at, you know, the Anakin Skywalkers

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Speaker 1: of the world, the Harry Potters of the world, the

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Speaker 1: Mulans of the world, etcetera. And all of these heroes

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Speaker 1: and heroines they have a past, a present in the

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Speaker 1: future where there's a spark that led to this journey.

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Speaker 1: Starting in the first place, there's a journey that this

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Speaker 1: hero or heroin goes down of slaying dragons and hopping

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Speaker 1: over fire pits, all in the interest of pursuing some

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Speaker 1: broader goal. And when people are asking tell me about yourself,

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Speaker 1: they're actually in some ways asking for your hero's journey,

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Speaker 1: where they're asking you to say something like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've always been interested in climate change. As someone who

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Speaker 1: grew up in a coastal community. I saw my dad,

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Speaker 1: who was a fisherman, struggle to make meetas quota season

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Speaker 1: after season after season, and over the course of growing

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Speaker 1: up and pursuing a a degree in environmental science, I

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00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: started realizing that, Wow, it's not just an issue that

430
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: my dad is facing, but it's a problem that all

431
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: of humanity is and will be facing. So as I

432
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 1: think about what I'd like to do in the future,

433
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: I'd love to combine my interest in environmentalism with my

434
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: training in data science to be able to help the

435
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: world make more data driven decisions around how to navigate

436
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: this crisis. I just totally made that up. My dad

437
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 1: is not a fisherman, of but but I just looking

438
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 1: together these different bits and pieces of your life that

439
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 1: helped tell a story. And I think sometimes it takes

440
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: a little it takes some forethought on the front end

441
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: before you get into that interview to be able to

442
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 1: tell that story well, because otherwise it's just bits and pieces,

443
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: it's fragments, and you want to be able to weave

444
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: it together right, exactly exactly, So what I think of,

445
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: of course, you don't want to sound all two canned

446
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: um and as if you're reading off a script. So

447
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 1: what I like to do is just have a collection

448
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: of stories in my mind. Um where these are, and

449
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 1: as I think about the other more common questions you'll get,

450
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: it's tell me about a time when right, it's tell

451
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: me about a time when you had conflict in the workplace,

452
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: or tell me about a time when you had to

453
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 1: step up, or tell me about a time when you

454
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: had to own a project from start to finish. Well,

455
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: all of those things are in some ways, also as

456
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: asking for your hero's journey. So having a bank of

457
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: what sparked your interest, what you've done to further this interest,

458
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 1: and where you'd like to combine things going forward can

459
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: help you almost pull ingredients out of the fridge to

460
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 1: cook up a dish depending on whatever people want to eat. Yeah, well,

461
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: we kind of are talking about thinking ahead here a

462
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: little bitcase. It seems like so much of excelling at

463
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: work and getting the job done is thinking ahead. It's

464
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: it's amazing. You know what feeling prepared? What that can

465
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 1: do for a meeting or a check in with your boss? Uh?

466
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: And so can you share some examples you talk about

467
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,479
Speaker 1: this in your book. Can you share some examples of

468
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: what thinking ahead could look like for employees? Yeah? The

469
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: first one, as I think about meetings, is to mentally

470
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: rehearse meetings. So before you walk into the room, asking yourself,

471
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 1: who's going to be in the room, what are they

472
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: going to be looking for, what are they going to

473
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: ask me for? What are they going to ask me about?

474
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: What's my one smart comment or one smart question, what's

475
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: my point of view in this topic? And coming prepared

476
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: you don't have to necessarily do a book report for

477
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,479
Speaker 1: yourself every time, but just even the ten seconds that

478
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: it takes to join this zoom call or teams call

479
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: or whatnot, refreshing your mind as to what your point

480
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: of view is and who might be in the room

481
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: and what your contribution is going to be can be

482
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: the difference between you getting caught off guard and you

483
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: looking like and frankly being put together. So that's one

484
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: in something that we all encounter on a daily basis,

485
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: which is meetings. The second is around uh thinking back

486
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: to the Alec Baldwin uh movie of ABC always be closing,

487
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: good old school movie there. Yeah, and ABC is not

488
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: just a sales concept. It's just as much an email

489
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: thread concept. For example, where there are some people who

490
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: will take an email and toss it right back at

491
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: you and for example ask when are you available, and

492
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: then they'll say, well, I'm available next week. Well, you

493
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: could push the agenda forward simply by offering your availability

494
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: in the other person's time zone and maybe listing out

495
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: three five. In my case, I often will list out

496
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 1: my entire week's availability. That way, all the other person

497
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 1: has to do is pick a time and you're done,

498
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: versus having to spend you know, five ten emails going

499
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: back and forth and asking well what do you think? Well,

500
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: what do you think? There's nothing more annoying than going

501
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: back and forth and back and forth about a time

502
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: So I agree, like, yeah, just for simplicity sake and

503
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: for being helpful, like tossing out those that time availability

504
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 1: is like yeah, definitely one easy thing you can do

505
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: to make people on your team's life a little bit easier.

506
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: And when it comes to managing workload, you know, in

507
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: the workplace, it's important to know the difference between what's

508
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: urgent and important, right you talk about that in your book,

509
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: like how how do we distinguish between those things? And

510
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: why is that such an important part of being an

511
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: effective worker? Yes, this is probably one of the more

512
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: important concepts, especially as we're all juggling multiple balls at

513
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: the same time. Where important I define as centrality, scrutiny,

514
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: and criticality, So a lot of ease here. Um. Centrality

515
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: is how core is this responsibility to your role? So

516
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: if this is something that you're hired to do, that's important.

517
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: Scrutiny is who's paying attention? So if the CEO is

518
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: asking for an update, that's probably a sign that this

519
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: is a high profile project and if someone's asking about it,

520
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: you should be responsive to it. And then finally, criticality

521
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: is his this something that if this doesn't get done,

522
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: nothing else gets done. If so, that's important as well.

523
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: And urgency I define as proximity, scrutiny, anxiety, and time sensitivity.

524
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: So again a lot of ease here. Where proximity is

525
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: probably the easiest to define, which is how close you

526
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: are to the deadline if there is a deadline. Scrutiny

527
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: we talked about, which is who's paying attention. Anxiety is

528
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: something that's unspoken and unwritten, where how anxious are the

529
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: people around you to to get things done. I think

530
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: of this as if we're driving down a freeway and

531
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: you're in the fast lane, but you're driving slowly and

532
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: everyone's tailgating you. Everyone's anxious you aren't you're going too slowly.

533
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: And then finally, time sensitivity is do things get harder

534
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: as time goes on? So I think of this as

535
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: scheduling meetings, for example, where the longer you wait, the

536
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: more people's calendars will fill up. And so the faster

537
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: you get this thing scheduled, the sooner you can get

538
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: that hold, the less anxious people will be. And it's

539
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: important to think about the difference between important and urgent,

540
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: because what often happens is we let the urgent crowd

541
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: out the important. And I have a lot of examples

542
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: of people who said yes to everything and felt like

543
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: they did a lot of work, but none of that

544
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: work ultimately mattered, and so come promotion time, they didn't

545
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: end up having anything to show despite them being so

546
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: swamped with work. And so knowing the difference between important

547
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: and urgent can be the difference between you working hard

548
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: versus smart, or you getting promoted and not from voted. Yeah,

549
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: it's like getting all this stuff crossed off your to

550
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: do list, but maybe most of the things that you

551
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: were able to accomplish it didn't really matter to the

552
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: people who are right above you, um or to your

553
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: boss's boss. It's it's getting those those are the important

554
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: things that you're you're gonna want to be able to

555
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: show to your superiors, right, to show that you're you're

556
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,719
Speaker 1: actually effective as opposed to just someone who can accomplish tasks.

557
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: Oh for sure. Yeah, it's coming back to the idea

558
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: of being proactive. I mean, you don't want to be

559
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: that rock that has to be kicked constantly, where someone

560
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: kicks you a little bit your roll and then you

561
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: tumble and then there's a thud. That's not the person

562
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: you want to be. Kind Of looping back to proactivity,

563
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: it kind of made me think back to some in

564
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: your book as well. You talk about setting expectations and

565
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: how being proactive a lot of times means figuring out

566
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: what your job is, figuring out what those expectations are.

567
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: Can you touch on that a little bit? How is

568
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: that going to impact your success at work? Yeah? I

569
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: think of every job as having almost a major and

570
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: a minor or a main course in a set of

571
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: side dishes, in certain whatever analogy or a metaphor you

572
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: want here where we all in our day jobs have

573
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: have twodus and nice to us. So as I think

574
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: back to centrality one of these core tenants, to importance.

575
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: If you were hired to do something, or if there's

576
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: a project that if this doesn't get done, your head

577
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: is on the guillotine. That's all of a sudden important.

578
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: And and so when you first join a role or

579
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 1: when you're first approaching a project, that can be helpful

580
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: to think about, Okay, where do I need to be perfect,

581
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: because this is really what's going to be scrutinized, and

582
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: where do I only need to be good enough where

583
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: maybe I can cut some corners or not treat this

584
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: so urgently or not spend so much time on on

585
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: on this and so one of the questions that often

586
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: gets overlooked when you're joining a new team or entering

587
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: a new role is to ask your manager, Hey, what

588
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: do you expect me to have done or accomplished in

589
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: by the end of my first three months or six

590
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: months or a year, or what do you consider high

591
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: priorities and maybe mediocre priorities? Um, I guess people don't

592
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: generally like to think of things as low priorities, So

593
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: I hesitate to maybe drop that in your first conversation

594
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: with your manager. What's the stuff I shouldn't care about

595
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: at all? Okay, let's get real here. So I mean,

596
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: so much of this is is around doing this hint,

597
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: h nudge nudge of Hey, what can I kind of

598
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: cut corners on? Which is going to keep you saying.

599
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: But you have to sort of approach this conversation in

600
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: a in a polite, politically correct way, which is asking, hey,

601
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: what's top priority? Because I want to make sure I'm

602
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: doing a good job of that exactly. Yeah, that and

603
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: that can be difficult when you have a job that

604
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: encompasses a lot of responsibilities and you're looking at your

605
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: job description and you see all these things. But what

606
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're trying to do here is getting

607
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: your your boss, your supervisor to boil it all down

608
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: for you. Like, just like you said, at the end

609
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: of three months, what what has to be done, what

610
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: would what would be nice to have accomplished. I think

611
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: that's all smart. We've got a few more questions that

612
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: we want to ask you here right after the breaks.

613
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: I feel like so far we've kind of touched on

614
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: ways to get your career kicked off right uh, And

615
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: so after the break, we're actually we want to ask

616
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: some questions about kind of moving on from a career

617
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: when it comes to looking, you know, towards the next

618
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: step in your career. So we'll get to all those

619
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: right after this break. All right, we're back to the break.

620
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: We're still talking with gorek Ing about the unspoken rules

621
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: of career success, and match just hinted to this. We're

622
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: gonna talk about maybe moving on from a job you're

623
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: you're not so interested in anymore. And Grek, you said

624
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: that actually, ideally your next job is one that you

625
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: don't even have to apply for. That sounds that sounds

626
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: pretty nice. You talk about positioning yourself so that opportunities

627
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: are flowing to you, how do you actually make that

628
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: happen in reality? Yeah, this is one of the more

629
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: important concepts because it's really speaking to not just putting

630
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 1: your head down, but being strategic about maneuvering your way

631
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: from where you are to where you want to go.

632
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: And I'll illustrate with an example that unfortunately didn't make

633
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: it into the book, but it's of a late twenties

634
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: someomething who had zero acting experience, had zero experience in Hollywood,

635
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: but wanted to break into the entertainment scene and his

636
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: journey actually last five years. So he also had patients

637
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: in addition to the three c's where he was working

638
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: as a business analyst unrelated at all to the entertainment field.

639
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: But what he did was he went to entertainment conferences

640
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 1: and strategically sat beside the people that he wanted to meet.

641
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: He would introduce himself and strike up a conversation with

642
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: those who matter. He'd get their business cards or their

643
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: emails and send a thank you email. He'd follow up

644
00:35:55,360 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: with them with life updates. He'd pass on opportunit unities

645
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: that these individuals may be interested in. He dug through

646
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: his university and even his high school yearbook in search

647
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: of people who we're even remotely connected to the entertainment

648
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: scene in l A. And then finally he just cold

649
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: emailed like mad, and over the course of just putting

650
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,399
Speaker 1: himself out there in all these different ways and making

651
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: in a habit, he ended up meeting someone who five

652
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: years later ended up reaching out to him and saying, Hey,

653
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: what are you looking for? And actually, as nicely ties

654
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: back to our earlier conversation about the hero's journey, because

655
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: when this person reached out and asked what are you

656
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: looking for, they're asking for your hero's journey. And this

657
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: person ended up saying, while I've done this and this,

658
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: this is where I'd like to go. The person who

659
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: reached out ended up saying, actually, this is exactly the

660
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: role that I'm looking to hire for. Let me forward

661
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: your resume over to HR. That's so much better than

662
00:36:58,480 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: what I would have done. I would have just like

663
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: looked up like Kate Planchett and Brad pitt On LinkedIn

664
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 1: and I would have liked tried to try to friend

665
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: them there, but I'm sure you may have done that

666
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 1: as well. Okay, okay one of the movie star home tours,

667
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: like I'll get out here, I start yelling from out

668
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: in front of the fence. Uh, well go. You know

669
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: you kind of mentioned going to these different conferences sitting

670
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: down next to the people who you're hoping to get

671
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 1: to know. That sort of sounds like finding a mentor

672
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: to a certain extent, right, because if you can, you know,

673
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: if you hit it off and they like you and

674
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 1: it's a conversation you can continue, if that's an email

675
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: chain that continues for a while, that can be somebody

676
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: who can mentor you. And so how important do you

677
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: think that is? And you know, this is one small

678
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: example of what a mentor might look like, and so

679
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: I'm interested to hear just maybe some other examples too.

680
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: But how important is it? And and how do you

681
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: find the right mentor for you? Uh? And then actually

682
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 1: make that connection? Say it's an industry where you aren't

683
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 1: able to sit down next to that person you know

684
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: at a conference, how do you reach out beyond your

685
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: current network. And I think the first thing actually is

686
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: to to define mentor in a less scary way. Where

687
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: when I was first introduced the to the to the

688
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: term and the concept of a mentor, I thought, wow, like,

689
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: I don't know anyone in high places. But when I

690
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 1: redefined mentor not as some hot shot person who's high

691
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: up and therefore inaccessible. If I instead define mentor as

692
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: someone who know something you don't know, or someone who

693
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: can help you figure out what you don't know, you

694
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: don't know but should know, I start realizing that actually

695
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: a mentor could be anybody. My classmates are mentors, my

696
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: friends are mentors, family members are mentors. And what it

697
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: takes to find these mentors and to nurture these relationships,

698
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,959
Speaker 1: it involves what I call climbing the relationship ladder, where

699
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: if you imagine a ladder with different wrungs, at the

700
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: very bottom are strangers, and just by definition, most people

701
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: in the world are going to be strangers to you.

702
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: But over the course of recognizing bids and embracing bids,

703
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: you can turn someone who's otherwise a stranger into an acquaintance.

704
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: And maybe that's a matter of opening the door for

705
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: someone or holding the door open, or thanking someone who

706
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 1: delivered an especially good presentation, or asking a question at

707
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,720
Speaker 1: an event and following up, or sending a thank you email,

708
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: or just simply d m ng someone over Teams or

709
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: Zoom or any other video chat platform that we may

710
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: be using during our work from home days. All of

711
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 1: these microactions are actually elevating someone from stranger status to

712
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 1: acquaintance status, and then from acquaintance status, you can then

713
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: follow up and have maybe a one on one conversation,

714
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 1: in which case they become your allies where you're looking

715
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,439
Speaker 1: out for them and they're looking at for you. And

716
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: over the course of nurturing those relationships, you may have

717
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: a couple of people who you may end up having

718
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: deeper conversations with. These come your mentors. And then finally,

719
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: if you're looking up the chain of command in your organization,

720
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: there are people who are called sponsors, who are people

721
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: who are a part of those promotion committees, who really

722
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: are high up in your organization and who can bang

723
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: the table and say, hey, we need to absolutely give

724
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: this opportunity to Joel and Matt. I would trust them

725
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: with my life and what it takes to get these

726
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: people up isn't to just throw them up there. I

727
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: think these are maybe the people that give networking a

728
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: bad name, people who meet you for the first time

729
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: and are maybe overly transactional, but who bring you up

730
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: this relationship ladder, one rung at a time. So I

731
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: think it actually nicely brings us back full circle to

732
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: where we began, which is finding these hidden opportunities to

733
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 1: turn people who are otherwise strangers into acquaintances, following up,

734
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: sending thank you emails, digging through databases, and doing all

735
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: of these all the time as a habit. Yeah, I

736
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 1: like that, And I like to the way you kind

737
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: of talk about mendership and how you can have like

738
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: a few different mentors. It it doesn't have to be sometimes,

739
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: I guess growing up, I always felt like asking someone

740
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: to be your mentor was like asking them to be

741
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: a third parent to you or something like that. Um,

742
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: and it feels like this this big ask. And I

743
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: could see if someone came up with me and was like,

744
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: will you be my mentor, that I would just be

745
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: freaked out a little bit. And I think that there's

746
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: like a soft way of kind of finding someone who

747
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 1: can help mentor you without it being this uber formal

748
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 1: um relationship that maybe a lot of people might not

749
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: want to partake in. Uh, I want to ask you

750
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 1: to grek about, like right now, what's happening kind of

751
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: in the workplace has been called the Great resignation. A

752
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: lot of people ready to move on to a new job.

753
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: So when it comes to leaving, though, there's a right

754
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: way and a wrong way to leave. So how would

755
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: you recommend someone who is thinking about, you know, moving

756
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: on just to another competitor in the same space that

757
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: they're in, or moving on to a completely different industry,

758
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: or going to work for themselves, Like, however they depart,

759
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: how can they leave graciously? I think of this as

760
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 1: a bit of a a litmus test or or three

761
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: crates herea that I would encourage folks to to think

762
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: about where A you want to leave your team not

763
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: feeling blindsided. Be you want to leave your team in

764
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: a position where they can keep the show running without you.

765
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: And see, you want to leave the team in a

766
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: position where they've got line of sight to a successor

767
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: who can fill your role. And it's a bit of

768
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: a tall order to achieve all three. And I realized

769
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: that all three may not be attainable all the time.

770
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: But I'd also say that number one is more important

771
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: than number two, which is more important than number three.

772
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 1: Where the most important thing is to not leave your

773
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: folks blindsided. The second most important is to make sure

774
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: that there's continuity, that things aren't just gonna fall to

775
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: pieces with you absent. And then three is if you

776
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: can maybe even help find someone who can who can

777
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 1: take on your role in the future. At all depends

778
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: on the extent of the relationship that you'd want to maintain,

779
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: the reputation that you want to leave behind. Where if

780
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: you want to not only not burn the bridge, but

781
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: leave that bridge smelling like flowers, do all three. If

782
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: it's a normal situation, do one and two. And if

783
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 1: you want to leave amicably, which I suspect many of

784
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: us do because reputation is so important, then make sure

785
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: that you're at least not leaving people blindsided. Right, Yeah,

786
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: you know, at the very least do number one. So

787
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: how do you do that then, because obviously you probably

788
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: don't want to forecasts. It's like, hey, I'm gonna be

789
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 1: out here in six months. That sounds like too much time.

790
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: But if you're like, like, no, actually, you're out of here,

791
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: there's Friday. Yeah, but then if you go in that

792
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: morning and you're like, this is my last day, uh,

793
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 1: And so obviously there's there's some place in between. And

794
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: so from a time frame standpoint, what's what do you

795
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: what do you feel like is ideal? Uh? And then

796
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: what are the best ways of actually going about making

797
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: that announcement? Yeah, you know, this is a bit of

798
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 1: a tricky question because I know that if you go

799
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,879
Speaker 1: onto Google, people will say, well, it's two weeks. If

800
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: it's two weeks and one day, that's too long, And

801
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: it's two weeks minus one day, it's too short. I

802
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: actually came up with this sort of three pronged litmus

803
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: test as a way of hopefully helping folks think about

804
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: what it means to not surprise your co workers. For

805
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: your own individual context, it maybe two weeks for your

806
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: co workers to not feel blindsided. It maybe a month.

807
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,439
Speaker 1: I've left jobs before where I've actually given that three

808
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: month notice because I knew that my role was one

809
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: that was hard to to to backfill. So I'm going

810
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: to give you a bit of that cop out answer

811
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: of saying, make sure you're mindful of these three and

812
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: you will likely for your own circumstances. Come upon is

813
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,959
Speaker 1: it two weeks? Is at three weeks? Is at four weeks?

814
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: Kind of thing. Yeah. In a recent article Goork, you

815
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: mentioned that everyone is the captain of their own career,

816
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: and if you don't make it happen, it's not going

817
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: to happen. And I think that is probably a good

818
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: way to encourage us to take the reins of our

819
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: own lives and of our our futures and what it

820
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: looks like to continue to progress either in the career

821
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: that we're in or to move on to something you know,

822
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 1: in the in the near future that we're more more

823
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: excited about. What final advice do you have for How

824
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: the Money listeners when it comes to steering their career

825
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: towards success. Well, given that this is the how to

826
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 1: Money podcasts, that's us. I'll frame this props around capital,

827
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: where I know in a number of prior episodes you

828
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: talk about the trade off between time and money, as

829
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: as as two forms of capital or currency. As I

830
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: think about capital, I think of it as things that

831
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 1: we can spend and accumulate. Maybe not time, although maybe

832
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: you can save a bit of time. We have a

833
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: finite amount of time. When I start thinking about capital

834
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: in the context of our careers, I start thinking about

835
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 1: how there are really three additional forms of capital. One

836
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: is human capital, which is what you know and can do.

837
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: The second is social capital, which is who you know.

838
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 1: And then the final one is reputational capital, which is

839
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: who knows you and what they know you for. And

840
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:21,959
Speaker 1: when I think about our careers, it's really a matter

841
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 1: of playing your cards well across these five forms of

842
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: capital and making sure that you're making the right trade

843
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: offs where maybe it's not all about the money, and

844
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: it's about the human capital, the learning that you'll get.

845
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: Maybe it's about signing up for this project so you

846
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 1: can meet more people. Maybe it's about building a good

847
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: reputation so that you can use this opportunity as a

848
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: stepping stone to that next opportunity. So being mindful of

849
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: how you're pulling these levers can hopefully help folks better

850
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: navigate these unfamiliar situations. That is great advice and makes

851
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: sense because as there are going to be I mean,

852
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,439
Speaker 1: we should probably be paying attention to all of them.

853
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,359
Speaker 1: But I think there are certain forms of capital here

854
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: that you mentioned that are going to be more important

855
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 1: to us as individuals, there might be these different areas

856
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: that we want to pursue more than others because they

857
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: just mean more to us. And so I think kind

858
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 1: of starting with that end in mind can definitely inform

859
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 1: the decisions that we make as we advanced through our careers.

860
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: This has been a really insightful conversation. Where can can

861
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: folks go to learn more about you as well as

862
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: what else you have going on? Yeah, the best way

863
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,760
Speaker 1: to stay in touch is through my website. It's gorik

864
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: dot com. That's g O R I c K dot

865
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 1: c O M. I'm on the different social media platforms

866
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: which you'll see on my website, whether it's Twitter, Instagram, TikTok,

867
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: even uh and especially LinkedIn. So feel free to reach

868
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 1: out and I would love to stay in touch. This

869
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: is actually a bid, by the way, this is a

870
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: bid to your audience that I see reaching out takes

871
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: advantage exactly. Awesome, Glary, Well, hey, thanks so much for

872
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: joining us on the show. This is a lot of fun.

873
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. This is an amazing time. Thank

874
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: you alright, Joel, what a very insightful conversation. I feel

875
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: like we just had here at go work. I feel

876
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: like his book, it's a book telling you how to

877
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: do everything but your job, right, Like, like, we all

878
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: have different professions, and we all were essentially hired for

879
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,760
Speaker 1: one specific task or maybe a couple of tasks related

880
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: to the one job that you're supposed to do, but

881
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: go Work's book is just all about all the other

882
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: things that we have to do in addition to that

883
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: one task to make sure that we're successful, to make

884
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,439
Speaker 1: sure that we're compatible with with those around us. Yeah,

885
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: and I feel like it's a lot of his advice,

886
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: Like he said, he drew some from marriage advice and

887
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: what it looks like to be, uh, you know, a

888
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: good coworker in the workplace, And so I think some

889
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: of the advice he gives is is eminently applicable to

890
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: the work you're doing and how to do it well,

891
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: but it's also applicable to know being a better human being,

892
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: communicating better with the people that you know live under

893
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: the same roof with, or family members who you know

894
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,439
Speaker 1: live always away. Like it's just, yeah, it's a really

895
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: good book with a lot of helpful stuff, but yeah,

896
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: what is you're a big takeaway from that combo? So

897
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: I liked how he redefined what a mentor is, because

898
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: essentially it seems like this very daunting, intimidating word. Oh

899
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: sort of like you said, you know, like will you

900
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,879
Speaker 1: be my mentor? It's like, oh man, I'm freaking out

901
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: over here, like I don't know if I'm ready for

902
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,399
Speaker 1: that kind of responsibility. Right I've already got three kids.

903
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 1: I don't even another one, or like before you had kids,

904
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: are just like, oh, I'm only twenty eight, like like

905
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 1: I'm not ready for this, uh, this kind of commitment.

906
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: But I love how he defined it, which is it

907
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,399
Speaker 1: can be as simple as finding somebody who is one

908
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: step down further down the path than you are. It

909
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 1: can be somebody who just knows one more thing than

910
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 1: you do, and they could be a mentor. To me,

911
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 1: that doesn't sound like a mentor. But maybe what that

912
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: means is we should just completely get rid of that term,

913
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: because I'm afraid that that's keeping people from reaching out

914
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 1: to people and thinking about those relationships in that way.

915
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be this Obi Wan Andakin Skywalker

916
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 1: relationship where where you're passing the skills down from you know,

917
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: I'm mature Jedi nights down to like a kid in training.

918
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 1: Will you be my Yoda. But yeah, I just found

919
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: that specifically really helpful the way he redefined what a

920
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: mentor could be in your life. Yeah, yeah, that was good. Yeah.

921
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 1: So how about you, what was your big takeaway from

922
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: this convo? Okay, I think one of the biggest things

923
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 1: that stood out to me was when he was talking

924
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: about when you're going to college, you're keeping up, and

925
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 1: when you get in the workplace, it's all about stepping up.

926
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: And I can totally identify with that, because if you

927
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: bring that college mentality in, like I just gotta show

928
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 1: up to class on time, turning my paper by the deadline,

929
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: you feel like you're you are just trying to get

930
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: by and you're trying to hope, hopefully at least keep

931
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: up that be average or whatever. And you know, in

932
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: the workplace, there is if you want to get ahead,

933
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: like if you want to succeed, if you want a promotion,

934
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 1: if you want to be able to move up the

935
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 1: ladder and hopefully increase your earnings, which on how the money, Like,

936
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: we're down with you increasing your earnings. We think that's

937
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: a good thing. Then there are things that you have

938
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: to pay attention to and you can't treat it like

939
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: you did college. You have to be more about stepping up,

940
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 1: and that does involve proactivity, right. You're gonna have to

941
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: work on your communication style and you're gonna have to

942
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 1: think ahead when it comes to what jobs are the

943
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,399
Speaker 1: most crucial, which once you you need to get done.

944
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 1: You even have to change your approach to meetings, which

945
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 1: is one of the things he said in this interview.

946
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know. I think that's a really

947
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 1: important distinction to make. If you're still kind of thinking

948
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: about your work like you did going to college, in

949
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 1: all likelihood, you're gonna be kind of stuck and you're

950
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 1: gonna feel stuck um after after a little while. Yeah,

951
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: be average, which you said you can't. You can't get

952
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 1: into Harvard with a B average. No, no, no, I'm

953
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 1: not saying go aage. You gotta have a four part

954
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 1: for everyone out there. But I mean we're kind of

955
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 1: joking about just keeping up in school, but even four

956
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 1: folks who are in school, if you are able to

957
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: even at a at an earlier age, to switch that mentality,

958
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 1: I think from keeping up two stepping up mentality. If

959
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 1: you're in school and you're stepping up, you're going to

960
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: be the class president. You're gonna stand out from all

961
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: of the rest. You're gonna be the one getting the

962
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 1: job offers before you've even graduated. And that's the kind

963
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: of situation, uh, you want to find yourself in if

964
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 1: you're a college graduate. But definitely, like you said, those

965
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: are the things that you need to do within a

966
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: professional environment as well. But let's go ahead and get

967
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 1: back to the beer that you and I enjoyed on

968
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 1: this episode today. You and I both had a Belgian

969
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: Aloha and this is a Belgian triple with hibiscus brewed

970
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: in Lewis Center, Ohio. Never heard of this brewery. This

971
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 1: one was sent to us by Scotts. Thank you so

972
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: much for donating this one plus another one that we're

973
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: gonna enjoy here on the podcast. Joel, what were your thoughts? Yeah, man,

974
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: this one was light and refreshing, and it really did

975
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 1: have like a little bit of Belgium and a little

976
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 1: bit of Hawaii mixed in, you know. It had had

977
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: some of those Belgian notes of a classic triple, some

978
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 1: of that like Belgian spice thrown in there, while at

979
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: the same time the hybiscus gave it a little bit

980
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: more of a tropical vibe it was. I would say

981
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: it was refreshing, it was tasty. Um. I yeah, I

982
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 1: enjoyed it, and it's not necessarily the kind of beer

983
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,359
Speaker 1: I normally go for. Belgian triples aren't normally my thing.

984
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,959
Speaker 1: I think sometimes those Belgian spices are actually a little

985
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 1: overwhelming to my pallette. But this one was kind of

986
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: muted in that way, so I appreciated because of the hibiscus.

987
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: I assume those those Uhltal notes that the hibiscus was

988
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: able to bring to this beer. Like when we poured it,

989
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is a really pretty beer.

990
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 1: It was like halfway between like pink and orange, was

991
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 1: like a rose or something. It is also on the

992
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: can it actually says that it says this is a

993
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: French slash Belgian, a le that's rosie, bubbly and strong

994
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: on the finish. Totally true. It definitely kind of had

995
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 1: those rose vibes going on. I really enjoyed this one,

996
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: and I agree, yeah, it didn't have those heavy kind

997
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 1: of triple clove kind of spices. It was almost more

998
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 1: just sort of like a muted Belgian. Herbally notes that

999
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: it was able to show up with but either way,

1000
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,479
Speaker 1: we really enjoyed this one, and Scott, thank you again

1001
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: for sending this one for us to enjoy on the podcast,

1002
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: no doubt. All right, well that's gonna do it for

1003
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 1: this episode. Folks who want show notes and links to

1004
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: go Rick's book and his website, you can go to

1005
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 1: our website at how to money dot com. That's right,

1006
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 1: and so that's gonna be it, dude. Until next time,

1007
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: Best friends Out, Best Friends Out,