WEBVTT - #062 Jason Flom with Guy Miles

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<v Speaker 1>I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.

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<v Speaker 2>I was brought up with cops are the good guys.

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

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<v Speaker 3>do know that everything was stacked against me.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything like everything.

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<v Speaker 3>This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I

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<v Speaker 3>know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do

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<v Speaker 3>with this. How is this possible?

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<v Speaker 4>I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing

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<v Speaker 4>that every human being should do the right thing. And

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<v Speaker 4>that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with

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<v Speaker 4>corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get

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<v Speaker 4>me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the

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<v Speaker 4>fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I

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<v Speaker 2>prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.

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<v Speaker 1>Our system.

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<v Speaker 5>Since I've been out ten years, it has come a

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<v Speaker 5>little ways, but it's still broken.

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<v Speaker 4>I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.

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<v Speaker 1>This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with

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<v Speaker 1>Jason Flamm that's me, and today we have a great program.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm really really excited because one of the people who

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<v Speaker 1>I really look up to in the innocence movement is here.

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<v Speaker 1>Justin Brooks is the founder and director of the California

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<v Speaker 1>Innocence Project. And so Justin welcome to the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much.

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<v Speaker 1>And on the phone, we have an extraordinary person named

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<v Speaker 1>Guy Miles, who served over eighteen years in prison for

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<v Speaker 1>a crime that happened in California while he was in

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<v Speaker 1>Las Vegas. And I know that sounds crazy, and it is,

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<v Speaker 1>but when you hear the story, it's just going to

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<v Speaker 1>get crazier.

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<v Speaker 2>Miles was convicted of a nineteen ninety eight armed robbery

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<v Speaker 2>and Fullerton. He had an alibi, but an eyewitness.

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<v Speaker 1>Identify him in court.

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<v Speaker 5>Years later, the real robbers confessed and said Miles, this

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<v Speaker 5>guy had nothing to do with it.

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<v Speaker 1>So Guy, welcome to the show. As I always say,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm I'm sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're here.

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<v Speaker 5>Thank you very much, appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so Justin take us back because this case, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>even after twenty five years of working in this field,

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<v Speaker 1>when I read this case, I was trying to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>my head was kind of spinning. But can you take

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<v Speaker 1>us through the circumstances of this case and then we'll

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<v Speaker 1>get with guy and walk through the whole situation.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, so this is a you know, I find myself

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<v Speaker 2>saying this often, as I'm sure you do that this

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<v Speaker 2>is a crazy case. But when you look at the

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<v Speaker 2>facts of this case, it would be literally comical if

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<v Speaker 2>it didn't have such tragic results for guy. This guy,

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<v Speaker 2>Bernard Teamer, was paying his car off at a Savings

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<v Speaker 2>and Loan and every time he went in there he

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<v Speaker 2>saw that they had a lot of cash. So he

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<v Speaker 2>gets a couple of his buddies together and says, let's

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<v Speaker 2>go rob this place. But they know me in there,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'll wait outside in the car and you guys

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<v Speaker 2>go in and rob it. So they pull up in

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<v Speaker 2>front of the Savings and Loan and Bernard has such

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<v Speaker 2>a short attention span that he actually gets bored while

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<v Speaker 2>they're doing the robbery, and he sees an auto parts store,

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<v Speaker 2>so he decides to do a little shopping, so he

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<v Speaker 2>gets out of his car, locks the car, goes in

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<v Speaker 2>the autoparts store and starts asking about parts for a

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<v Speaker 2>rare car that he has. The guys come back who've

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<v Speaker 2>committed the robbery. They can't get in the car, and

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<v Speaker 2>the actual guy who's working the autoparts store points out

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<v Speaker 2>the window and says, hey, I think your boys are

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<v Speaker 2>waiting for you out there. So he runs out, unlocks

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<v Speaker 2>the car, they get in, they drive away. So now

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<v Speaker 2>the alarms go off. Everybody goes outside. The people from

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<v Speaker 2>the bank are outside, the guy from the autoparts star

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<v Speaker 2>is outside. They say, oh, we just got robbed, and

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<v Speaker 2>he says, oh, I just saw those guys, and one

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<v Speaker 2>of them was in here looking for these parts for

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<v Speaker 2>this rare car. It so takes them about five minutes

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<v Speaker 2>to catch Bernard, who is one hundred percent guilty of

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<v Speaker 2>this crime, and then they start trying to piece together

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<v Speaker 2>who are the other two.

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<v Speaker 1>Robbers because Bernard's not giving it up.

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<v Speaker 2>He's not telling them anything. And so the way they

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<v Speaker 2>do it is this officer puts together photo rays, but

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<v Speaker 2>instead of using the descriptions that are given of the robbers,

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<v Speaker 2>he instead just puts a bunch of people who live

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<v Speaker 2>in the same neighborhood as Bernard Teamer and they don't

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<v Speaker 2>match the descriptions at all. As you go through the photos,

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<v Speaker 2>there's really heavy people, really skinny people, light skinned people,

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<v Speaker 2>dark skinned people, people with long dreadlocks, bald people. It's

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<v Speaker 2>the most ridiculous set of photo rays you've ever seen.

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<v Speaker 2>In it it's not based on anything except for their associated

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<v Speaker 2>with Bernard Teamer. Only one person vaguely matches the description

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<v Speaker 2>and the photo rays, and that's Guy Miles.

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<v Speaker 1>So they went through these photographs of the people in

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<v Speaker 1>the neighborhood, but they actually managed to somehow forget to

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<v Speaker 1>put in the photos of the guys who were in

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<v Speaker 1>the neighborhood who were the actual perpetrators, who could have

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<v Speaker 1>been identified by any number of these people that were

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<v Speaker 1>at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>And to match the descriptions that are given by the witnesses.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we had experts actually go through the photos

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<v Speaker 2>and they said, based on the description given, the only

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<v Speaker 2>person that would be picked here is Guy Miles, because

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<v Speaker 2>they didn't put other people in the photo rays that

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<v Speaker 2>matched the description. And so they violated the most fundamental

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<v Speaker 2>thing of putting a photo ray together. And as you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there's already enough problems with identifications without following any of

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<v Speaker 2>the basic procedures and the basic procedure is you have

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<v Speaker 2>fillers that match the description given by the witnesses and

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<v Speaker 2>on in there that fit that description. They were all

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<v Speaker 2>very specific to people in the neighborhood, right.

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<v Speaker 1>And so the way memory works is that your mind,

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<v Speaker 1>especially as more time goes by, and your mind goes

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<v Speaker 1>towards the one who most resembles. And we know that

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<v Speaker 1>memory is you know, some people think it's like a camera,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's the farthest thing from it, and it's easily

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<v Speaker 1>everyone is easily influenced. And this is why mistake and

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<v Speaker 1>eyewitness identification is the leading cause of wrongful convictions.

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<v Speaker 2>And in this case, one of the witnesses when she

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<v Speaker 2>came in, she couldn't identify him anyway. When Guy Miles

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<v Speaker 2>was right in front of her, she couldn't identify him.

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<v Speaker 2>And the shocking thing that I've seen now in a

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<v Speaker 2>number of cases is they take a recess, they go

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<v Speaker 2>out in the hallway, the witness talks to the district attorney,

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<v Speaker 2>and the next thing you know, they're making the identification.

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<v Speaker 2>Guy goes off to prison for the rest of his life.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's pretty easy to see what could go wrong there.

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<v Speaker 1>And we're going to get into more of this, the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that there was there were nine alibi witnesses who

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<v Speaker 1>could have who could have and well some of them

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<v Speaker 1>did play a guy in Las Vegas, right, six of

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<v Speaker 1>them testified. I mean as you said, I mean, and

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<v Speaker 1>there is a very comical element to that, right, the

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<v Speaker 1>idea that the guys in the autopart store board and

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<v Speaker 1>then that's to come out of the cars lock. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it's literally like that's the beginning of a movie that start. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>you put Robert Donney Jr. In there, you got a hit,

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<v Speaker 1>So put robertized Junior or anything. But that's beside the point.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's go back to you guy, because I want

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<v Speaker 1>to get a sense of what your life was like

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<v Speaker 1>before this this tragedy happened that turns your life upside down.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, if I grew up in Carson, California, raised by

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<v Speaker 5>both my mother and father Christian people, good people you

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<v Speaker 5>know inher died and instill good values in me, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>I was I'm not going to say I was an angel.

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<v Speaker 5>I did get in a little trouble, played a lot

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<v Speaker 5>of sports, got married, head kids.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, so you sort of it sounds like sort

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<v Speaker 1>of a typical childhood. Actually right, nothing crazy.

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<v Speaker 2>He does have unusual parents, and that both of them

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<v Speaker 2>are ministers. And every single court hearing, I've never had

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<v Speaker 2>a client's family quite like this. The entire courtroom was

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<v Speaker 2>filled with well dressed, well behaved people, polite to the da,

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<v Speaker 2>polite to the judge, even though he'd gone through this

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<v Speaker 2>total travesty.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, yeah, that is an unusual I haven't heard that either,

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<v Speaker 1>and it sort of adds a real interesting element to this.

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<v Speaker 1>So then fast forward to it was at June twenty ninth,

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety eight, a long time ago, that faithful day

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<v Speaker 1>when Fidelity Financial Institution at Fullord in California was robbed

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<v Speaker 1>by these band of idiots. It's really like a clown show.

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<v Speaker 1>And how did you first find out that you were

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<v Speaker 1>a suspect? What happened? And what day was it? Was

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<v Speaker 1>it the day of or it was it was afterwards

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<v Speaker 1>that you first got arrested?

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<v Speaker 5>Right, right, it was No, it was actually a couple

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<v Speaker 5>of weeks after the robbery took place. You know, I

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<v Speaker 5>got a call from my sister that the police were

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<v Speaker 5>looking for me, wanted to talk to me. I came

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<v Speaker 5>down from Las Vegas, h came in, talked to the officers.

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<v Speaker 5>They arrested me, right, They had like seven or eight

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<v Speaker 5>Orange County police officers there, and you know, I was

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<v Speaker 5>it was kind of strange to me because I'm like,

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<v Speaker 5>why is Orange County wanted to talk to me? I

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<v Speaker 5>thought maybe somebody in cards and wanted to talk to me.

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<v Speaker 5>They arrested me and told me that I was being

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<v Speaker 5>booked for a robbery in Orange County, and I'm like,

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<v Speaker 5>in Orange County. I've even been to Orange County. You know,

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<v Speaker 5>I was just I was confused, really didn't know what

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<v Speaker 5>was going on at that point.

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<v Speaker 1>Did they read you your rights and stuff?

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<v Speaker 5>They read me my rights and told me that I

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<v Speaker 5>was being arrested for Orange County robbery and that they

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<v Speaker 5>were going to come to my house and do a

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<v Speaker 5>raid to see if they can find evidence that links

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<v Speaker 5>me to the robbery. And so they actually drove me

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<v Speaker 5>back to the house rated my house. Of course, they

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<v Speaker 5>found none because it was nothing to be found, whisked

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<v Speaker 5>me off to Orange County jail, booked me, and from

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<v Speaker 5>there that's where the nightmare started.

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<v Speaker 1>When did you first get to see a lawyer? Did

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<v Speaker 1>you request a lawyer? Did you give an interview voluntarily.

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<v Speaker 1>How did that roll out?

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<v Speaker 5>So I wasn't even thinking about a lawyer because I

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<v Speaker 5>knew I didn't do nothing wrong. So that was the

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<v Speaker 5>last thing on my mind, is requesting the.

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<v Speaker 1>Lawyer, right, And that's something in justin you wait in here,

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<v Speaker 1>whatever you want. That's something that I talk about on

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<v Speaker 1>the show frequently, is that if you do get wrongfully arrested,

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<v Speaker 1>because there's enough people instance that there's enough people listening

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<v Speaker 1>to this show right now, that somebody is going to

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<v Speaker 1>have this experience. Unfortunately, probably several people who are listeners

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<v Speaker 1>at some point. You don't think it can happen to you,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think, guy, you'd probably agree it could hapen

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<v Speaker 1>anyway one, right.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, right, I agree, I definitely agree.

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<v Speaker 2>And people think they can straighten things out often and

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<v Speaker 2>their words get twisted. I thought this would all be

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<v Speaker 2>cleared up. I wanted to clear it up and go home, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And so innocent people almost always give statements because they've

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<v Speaker 2>got nothing to hide, and often those times those are twisted.

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<v Speaker 1>And justin you know, I think you'll agree, but feel

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<v Speaker 1>free to correct me because you're in the front lines,

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<v Speaker 1>on the front lines every day. But my advice is

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<v Speaker 1>give your name, your address. And then the next thing

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<v Speaker 1>you say is I want a lawyer. Absolutely, and that's it,

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<v Speaker 1>because they're not your friends. They're not there to help you,

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<v Speaker 1>and nothing you say is going to be is going

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<v Speaker 1>to help you. Right, there's nothing you can say that literally,

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<v Speaker 1>of all the billions of words in the English language,

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<v Speaker 1>none of them are good except for I want a lawyer.

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<v Speaker 1>Innocent people come in and are much more forthcoming than

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<v Speaker 1>guilty people.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, they're going to be totally cooperative because they think

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<v Speaker 2>I've got nothing to hide.

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<v Speaker 1>And like most people, like I grew up thinking that,

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<v Speaker 1>and prosecutors in the system is fair and it works,

0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:06.080
<v Speaker 1>and it will. It's there to protect you and to

0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:07.920
<v Speaker 1>protect and serve. That's what it says on the side

0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:10.120
<v Speaker 1>of the thing, right, so on the side of the cars.

0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.840
<v Speaker 1>But in fact, you know, in many cases, not always,

0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.360
<v Speaker 1>but in many cases they have a different agenda, and

0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.240
<v Speaker 1>that agenda is just to get you, and and they

0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:23.280
<v Speaker 1>don't let and guys yours is really a terrible but

0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.320
<v Speaker 1>perfect example of that. They didn't want to let the

0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.480
<v Speaker 1>fact that there was no evidence connecting you to the

0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:30.560
<v Speaker 1>to the thing, and that the witnesses weren't certain and

0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:31.920
<v Speaker 1>that you had alibi, and they didn't want to let

0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:33.280
<v Speaker 1>any of that get in the way of a perfectly

0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.600
<v Speaker 1>good conviction. So you're in there and you're thinking you're

0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.360
<v Speaker 1>going home in twenty or thirty minutes, and you're giving

0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.160
<v Speaker 1>them these statements. You're you're accused of a crime in

0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.319
<v Speaker 1>a place that you've never been to that happened when

0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:47.480
<v Speaker 1>you were in a different state, correct, Yeah, and where?

0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.080
<v Speaker 1>And this one, really, when you think about it, came

0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.080
<v Speaker 1>with instructions, right, because this is a crime, and many

0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:55.520
<v Speaker 1>crimes there's no witnesses, right. In this case, you had

0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:59.199
<v Speaker 1>lots of witnesses who got very very good views of it.

0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.240
<v Speaker 1>There wasn't time, They weren't hundreds of yards away like

0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.120
<v Speaker 1>we see in some cases. They were right there, right,

0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.520
<v Speaker 1>I mean, and you had the I mean, the probably

0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:10.360
<v Speaker 1>the perfect witness would have been the guy in the

0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.160
<v Speaker 1>in the auto shop or the whatever, the thing that

0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:16.800
<v Speaker 1>the crazy idiot went into, right, because he was not

0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:17.760
<v Speaker 1>under duress.

0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:18.200
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.600
<v Speaker 1>And we know that witnesses how much harder time identifying

0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.000
<v Speaker 1>people when they're at the actual crime scene because they're

0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.000
<v Speaker 1>so stressed out and there adrenaline is going crazy. But

0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.440
<v Speaker 1>this guy was just trying to sell them some stuff

0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.400
<v Speaker 1>for his fancy car or whatever, and so he would

0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:32.720
<v Speaker 1>have had no stress. It was just a typical transaction.

0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.440
<v Speaker 2>And that's why Bernard got caught. I mean, Bernard was

0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.720
<v Speaker 2>was in this thing without a doubt, right, But when

0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.240
<v Speaker 2>it came to the other IDs, you know, you had

0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:46.560
<v Speaker 2>guns in people's faces. There was violence within the Savings

0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.480
<v Speaker 2>and Loan. They were cross racial. It had all the

0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.640
<v Speaker 2>indsha that you've talked about on this show that create

0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:55.160
<v Speaker 2>for bad identifications.

0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:56.880
<v Speaker 1>Right of course. So did you get to see your lawyer.

0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.959
<v Speaker 5>I'll see my lawyer the first day at court because

0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.080
<v Speaker 5>we were looking for a lawyer. They gave me a

0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:07.160
<v Speaker 5>public a defender, and public defender came and talked to me.

0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.800
<v Speaker 5>He was really talking about nothing. Seems like he was

0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.959
<v Speaker 5>working with them. So my mother and then was like, no,

0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:17.480
<v Speaker 5>we're going to find a lawyer. Finally found a lawyer

0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.080
<v Speaker 5>by the name of Frank Williams, and he came down

0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.320
<v Speaker 5>and talked to me and we went into court pleaded

0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.560
<v Speaker 5>not guilty, and that's when the case commenced.

0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:31.640
<v Speaker 1>But how about this Frank Williams guy. Was he He's.

0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:36.640
<v Speaker 5>A terrible lawyer, terrible terrible. We actually hired him because

0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.120
<v Speaker 5>he was a family friend, you know, he kind of

0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.760
<v Speaker 5>grew up with us, so my mom felt comfortable, you know,

0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.120
<v Speaker 5>hire him. But he came with all kind of sets

0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:51.800
<v Speaker 5>and problems. His conduct was definitely suspicions. So he used

0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:54.560
<v Speaker 5>to come see me two o'clock in the morning, late

0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:58.760
<v Speaker 5>for court, never prepared, didn't go talk to any other

0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:03.400
<v Speaker 5>witnesses out of state, and it was just, I mean,

0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 5>it was crazy. His whole investigation was bizarre and unprofessional.

0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:12.840
<v Speaker 1>Was he even a criminal lawyer?

0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:15.640
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, he was a criminal lawyer. He's just born. Now.

0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.520
<v Speaker 1>Oh there's a criminal lawyer and a criminal well.

0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.880
<v Speaker 2>And we see that a lot. It's you know, it's

0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.160
<v Speaker 2>always a smell test when you're looking through that. We

0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.840
<v Speaker 2>get six thousand letters a year seeking assistance, so there's

0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:29.840
<v Speaker 2>always a smell test with you know, which of the

0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.280
<v Speaker 2>cases we think we got an innocent person here and

0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.120
<v Speaker 2>we can do something about. And it's breathtaking the number

0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.000
<v Speaker 2>of people who we look up the lawyer in thecowbar

0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.440
<v Speaker 2>dot org website and find that they're disbonded.

0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.840
<v Speaker 1>So let's go back to the courtroom. You know, you've

0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.800
<v Speaker 1>painted a picture which is really again, feels like a

0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:07.359
<v Speaker 1>movie to think about your parents being you know, distinguished

0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:11.160
<v Speaker 1>members of the community, your friends being there, their friends

0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:16.480
<v Speaker 1>being there, and yet they're like the only distinguished people

0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.160
<v Speaker 1>in the courtroom. As it turns out, the rest of

0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.720
<v Speaker 1>the system is broken. So how did it? How long

0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:23.920
<v Speaker 1>did the trial take? And I want to get to

0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.720
<v Speaker 1>what the moment was like, which I'm guessing was probably

0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:28.920
<v Speaker 1>the worst moment of your life. It's probably a pretty

0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:32.680
<v Speaker 1>good guess when when you found out that you were

0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.440
<v Speaker 1>going to be spending basically the rest of your life

0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:35.920
<v Speaker 1>in prison.

0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.200
<v Speaker 5>Well, the trial took actually to get to get to

0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:42.920
<v Speaker 5>the point of trial, it took like almost two years.

0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.240
<v Speaker 5>I fought the cave for almost two years before I

0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:51.280
<v Speaker 5>actually went to trial. Once I got to trial, it

0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:55.200
<v Speaker 5>was probably like maybe four weeks, four to six weeks

0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:57.400
<v Speaker 5>before the actual verdict came down.

0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.800
<v Speaker 2>It's a long trial, and they deliberated for a long time.

0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.399
<v Speaker 2>Wasn't it five days? They deliberated for seven days?

0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:06.080
<v Speaker 5>Seven days deliberation.

0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.080
<v Speaker 2>So I mean only you need to hear is that

0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.800
<v Speaker 2>to know that there's problems with a case If citizens

0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 2>are willing to sit in a room for seven days

0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.600
<v Speaker 2>and argue about it. How is there not reasonable doubt.

0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:21.679
<v Speaker 1>After a four to six week trial? Right, So these

0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:23.679
<v Speaker 1>are people who've been want to go home. Yeah, they

0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:25.399
<v Speaker 1>want to go back to work, they want to go

0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:27.439
<v Speaker 1>see their you know, whatever the hell they're doing is

0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:28.040
<v Speaker 1>better than this.

0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.119
<v Speaker 5>Yes, he actually came at one point, came with a

0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:33.880
<v Speaker 5>hung jury and the judge sent them back in there

0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:38.439
<v Speaker 5>to redliberate and see if they can come to some

0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:39.879
<v Speaker 5>kind of you know, agreement.

0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:42.920
<v Speaker 1>And you were being held in custody this whole time.

0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.800
<v Speaker 5>The whole time, where were you We're guilty until proven

0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:47.480
<v Speaker 5>more guilty?

0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:51.240
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, I never heard that before. I'm glad you

0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.920
<v Speaker 1>could laugh about it now. So you were guilty until

0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.000
<v Speaker 1>proven more guilty? And where were you being guilty at?

0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:00.000
<v Speaker 1>Where were they holding you?

0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:04.680
<v Speaker 5>Orange County Jail, Orange County, California, Santa Hanah Court. That's

0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:05.640
<v Speaker 5>the court I went to.

0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:11.040
<v Speaker 1>So the moment comes to hung jury has been sent

0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.240
<v Speaker 1>back and back and whatever, and they're sitting there in days,

0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:21.280
<v Speaker 1>they're turning into weeks, and finally they come back in. Uh,

0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.440
<v Speaker 1>they tell you they've got a verdict. What were you thinking?

0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:26.679
<v Speaker 1>Did you think that after all of this? I'm sure

0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:28.520
<v Speaker 1>you had lost a lot of faith in the system

0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.000
<v Speaker 1>by now, But did you still think you were going

0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:31.840
<v Speaker 1>to be exonerated?

0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:37.240
<v Speaker 5>I did, and I didn't. But let me rewind a

0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:41.840
<v Speaker 5>little bit before that, uh, that deliberation, before that verdict

0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.800
<v Speaker 5>came down, I was. I was in there doing everything

0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:49.160
<v Speaker 5>I could to get noticed to this court. I wrote

0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:53.680
<v Speaker 5>the mayor of Orange County. I even wrote the witness,

0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:55.680
<v Speaker 5>the victim in the case and told hers, you have

0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.320
<v Speaker 5>a right to you know, really investigate this this this

0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.199
<v Speaker 5>case and see if I'm really the guy who did it.

0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:04.280
<v Speaker 5>Of course, that letter was returned because they said I

0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:08.560
<v Speaker 5>couldn't write to a victim. I even wrote numerous letters

0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.679
<v Speaker 5>to the district attorney. We sat down, had a long conversation,

0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:14.440
<v Speaker 5>and she told me in front of him, she said,

0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.120
<v Speaker 5>I don't believe you did this case, but you're good

0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.800
<v Speaker 5>for it. And I couldn't believe. She told me that

0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:21.120
<v Speaker 5>right there in front of my attorney.

0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:23.280
<v Speaker 1>That was an assistant DA.

0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:27.120
<v Speaker 5>That was Karen walk and she was in a deputy

0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:27.920
<v Speaker 5>district attorney.

0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.000
<v Speaker 1>So she came in. I'm just processing this now. So

0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:32.480
<v Speaker 1>she came in and said.

0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:37.479
<v Speaker 5>What exactly She told me to my face, I don't

0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.960
<v Speaker 5>believe you did this the pieces to the puzzle doesn't fit,

0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:44.679
<v Speaker 5>but you're good for it. You've been in trouble before,

0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:48.440
<v Speaker 5>so hey, you're good for it. And they even tried

0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:52.960
<v Speaker 5>to get my attorney to have me go in the

0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:56.879
<v Speaker 5>room with Bernard Teamer or somebody else and wear a

0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.719
<v Speaker 5>wire and all kind of crazy stuff she was they

0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:02.760
<v Speaker 5>were trying to set up. That never even came out,

0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.680
<v Speaker 5>but all that stuff was being set up. I even

0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:09.320
<v Speaker 5>stood up at the council table while the witness while

0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:11.879
<v Speaker 5>the victim was on the stand, stood up and asked

0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.800
<v Speaker 5>her if she can get off the stand, come look

0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:19.879
<v Speaker 5>at me closely. And first du the DA rejected, and

0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.840
<v Speaker 5>then she let her come down. The victim came down

0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:25.760
<v Speaker 5>and said, hey, that's not him, that's not the guy

0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.360
<v Speaker 5>right there. The DA rushed, take a recess. Rushing, well,

0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:32.680
<v Speaker 5>it was already in recess. Take the victim outside, talk

0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:34.920
<v Speaker 5>to her. She come back. They bring the jury back

0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:37.399
<v Speaker 5>in and she points me out and say, yeah, that's

0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.359
<v Speaker 5>the guy. And they say, well, what change your mind

0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:41.159
<v Speaker 5>from that time?

0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:44.240
<v Speaker 1>Excuse me, I mean, I'm just just like that.

0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:49.520
<v Speaker 5>So they asked my lawyer asked her, what change your

0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:51.520
<v Speaker 5>mind from the time you said it wasn't him till

0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:53.240
<v Speaker 5>the time the DA took youther so well, she showed

0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:56.040
<v Speaker 5>me a picture and I said, that's the guy on

0:20:56.119 --> 0:21:00.239
<v Speaker 5>the picture right, and it looks like him, and you know,

0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.359
<v Speaker 5>maybe he cut his hair or something. It went on

0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:04.919
<v Speaker 5>this long tangem about me cutting my hair or whatever.

0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:07.000
<v Speaker 5>So yeah, so.

0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:10.080
<v Speaker 2>They go, so they go back to the they go

0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:13.280
<v Speaker 2>back to the photo that she id'd from, and this

0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:17.000
<v Speaker 2>is the classic sourcing error for an identification where the

0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:20.240
<v Speaker 2>witness now is completely confused because they're saying, no, no,

0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:24.160
<v Speaker 2>this is the person you identified. See this is him.

0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.960
<v Speaker 2>And now they're matching the photo with guy and of

0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:30.560
<v Speaker 2>course it is him. He's in the photo that they

0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:34.400
<v Speaker 2>did the ID from. And now your sourcing is so difficult.

0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:36.800
<v Speaker 2>You don't know whether your ID in them from the

0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:40.320
<v Speaker 2>crime scene, your idnum from the photo. You're being reinforced

0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:42.879
<v Speaker 2>by them saying this is the person who committed the crime.

0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:43.760
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:47.440
<v Speaker 2>And you see this happens over and over and over again.

0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:49.320
<v Speaker 2>This is not a rare instance.

0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:53.560
<v Speaker 1>Unfortunately, the DA saying I know it's not you. You

0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:57.920
<v Speaker 1>have the witness going I know it's not you, yeah,

0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:01.280
<v Speaker 1>I and eyewitnesses saying I know it's not right nine

0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:04.240
<v Speaker 1>alibi witnesses going away more than nine?

0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:05.480
<v Speaker 5>Only nine was accepted.

0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:07.960
<v Speaker 1>Oh right, only nine came to court, and I think

0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:09.560
<v Speaker 1>six were allowed to testify, but you had.

0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:13.200
<v Speaker 2>That's another frustrating thing about this judge. The judge says

0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:14.920
<v Speaker 2>this is redundant testimony.

0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:15.800
<v Speaker 1>Well how is it?

0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:19.560
<v Speaker 2>And he limited the number of alibi witnesses. It just

0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:22.360
<v Speaker 2>doesn't make it. And how is it redundant testimony when

0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:26.400
<v Speaker 2>each individual is a separate credibility determination by the jury

0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:28.960
<v Speaker 2>where they might believe one I won't believe another. There

0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:32.320
<v Speaker 2>are different circumstances. The judge just was tired of it.

0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:34.440
<v Speaker 2>Let's move on. Okay, A bunch of you say he

0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:35.000
<v Speaker 2>wasn't there?

0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:40.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, half a Las Vegas ready to testify for you, right, basically, Yeah,

0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:42.480
<v Speaker 1>Steve Winn rolled out on the stand.

0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:44.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean it's like, that's the first time I've ever

0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:48.000
<v Speaker 2>seen that in a case where judge said alibi witnesses

0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:49.600
<v Speaker 2>were redundant testimony.

0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:52.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, why let an alibi witness get in

0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:55.800
<v Speaker 1>the way of a perfectly get in fiction, right, or

0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:58.880
<v Speaker 1>a perfectly bad conviction in this case? Oh my god.

0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:03.320
<v Speaker 2>And a little interesting rock and roll tidbit you'll appreciate

0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:06.320
<v Speaker 2>is one of the witnesses described one of the suspects

0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:10.800
<v Speaker 2>as looking like Warren G. And that becomes important later

0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:13.880
<v Speaker 2>on when we find the guy who does in fact

0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:18.040
<v Speaker 2>look like Warren g And bring him into court and

0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:20.040
<v Speaker 2>we're looking over him saying, this guy does look like

0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:23.800
<v Speaker 2>Warren G. Guy Miles doesn't look anything like Warrang g And,

0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:27.320
<v Speaker 2>but this elderly white judge didn't seem to be able

0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:30.520
<v Speaker 2>to make any of those distinctions between not a wrap.

0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:35.560
<v Speaker 2>So I'm not good at a cross racial identification either

0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:37.479
<v Speaker 2>he was. He was as bad or worse at it

0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:38.920
<v Speaker 2>than the witnesses.

0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:42.080
<v Speaker 1>And while we're on that subject, you know, because we're

0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:44.239
<v Speaker 1>dropping a lot of knowledge here, which I'm glad that

0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:47.080
<v Speaker 1>you know. Having you here is really great because of

0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:49.200
<v Speaker 1>the fact that we can get into some of these

0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:53.159
<v Speaker 1>topics and the way that we do. But we know

0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:59.080
<v Speaker 1>now from study after study that as as prone to

0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:02.000
<v Speaker 1>error as I would say identification is, and it's wildly

0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:06.480
<v Speaker 1>prone to error, we know that cross racial identification is

0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:11.639
<v Speaker 1>much worse, much less reliable. It's the worst, it's the worst.

0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Half the people I've walked out of prison have been

0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:17.320
<v Speaker 2>as a result, they were convicted as a result of

0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:21.040
<v Speaker 2>cross racial identifications. Because when you work in southern California,

0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:25.640
<v Speaker 2>we have we're a mixing pot and it's constant. It's

0:24:25.680 --> 0:24:29.600
<v Speaker 2>whites and Latinos and blacks and Asians, and they're almost

0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:30.320
<v Speaker 2>always wrong.

0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:33.000
<v Speaker 1>So bear that in mind those of you out there

0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:36.960
<v Speaker 1>who are listening. You know, if you're on a jury

0:24:37.200 --> 0:24:40.439
<v Speaker 1>and you're looking at somebody in a case where a

0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:44.400
<v Speaker 1>you know that's the centerpiece of the prosecution is an

0:24:44.440 --> 0:24:49.840
<v Speaker 1>eyewitness identification, be aware that they're extremely unreliable. And then

0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:52.760
<v Speaker 1>if it happens to be a cross racial identification, you

0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:55.280
<v Speaker 1>can basically just throw it out the window, because you know,

0:24:55.320 --> 0:24:57.679
<v Speaker 1>there have been studies that show that you actually have

0:24:57.720 --> 0:25:00.360
<v Speaker 1>a better chance of being right just by guessing. Yep.

0:25:01.040 --> 0:25:03.040
<v Speaker 1>And there's a classic study you could look it up

0:25:03.040 --> 0:25:04.960
<v Speaker 1>from I think it was the eighteen nineties in England

0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:07.800
<v Speaker 1>and it's been done over and over again where they

0:25:07.800 --> 0:25:10.240
<v Speaker 1>took people who didn't witness the crime and they got

0:25:10.240 --> 0:25:12.160
<v Speaker 1>it right more often than people who did. And that's

0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:15.280
<v Speaker 1>due to a number of factors, including the adrenaline and

0:25:15.640 --> 0:25:19.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, pressures of all different kinds and psychological factors

0:25:19.040 --> 0:25:21.440
<v Speaker 1>and so yeah, so that.

0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:24.240
<v Speaker 2>Just starts, by the way, with it's the first four

0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:26.679
<v Speaker 2>years of our life where we code how to do

0:25:26.720 --> 0:25:30.080
<v Speaker 2>facial recognition. So if your mom is white, your dad

0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:32.639
<v Speaker 2>is white, your brother's white, your sisters are white, you

0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:37.240
<v Speaker 2>actually can't develop that skill to do facial recognition as

0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:39.520
<v Speaker 2>well with other races for the rest of your life.

0:25:39.680 --> 0:25:42.200
<v Speaker 2>If you come from a multi racial family and those

0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:44.080
<v Speaker 2>first few years you get a lot of exposure to

0:25:44.119 --> 0:25:46.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of races, you get better at it. But

0:25:46.600 --> 0:25:48.840
<v Speaker 2>it's just as simple as that. It's a human thing

0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:52.359
<v Speaker 2>that all human beings need to develop facial recognition, and

0:25:52.400 --> 0:25:54.439
<v Speaker 2>it happens in the first few years of their lives.

0:25:55.320 --> 0:25:59.920
<v Speaker 1>So back to you, guy, OK, So, now the moment

0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:05.399
<v Speaker 1>comes is spending an unbelievable ordeal already and now you've

0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:08.240
<v Speaker 1>dealt with this trial that's gone on for a month

0:26:08.280 --> 0:26:12.119
<v Speaker 1>and a half or whatever it is. The jury shuffles

0:26:12.240 --> 0:26:16.600
<v Speaker 1>back in. Did you think at that moment that you

0:26:16.640 --> 0:26:18.640
<v Speaker 1>were going to be found guilty or innocent?

0:26:20.640 --> 0:26:23.480
<v Speaker 5>I really didn't know. I had a bad vibe looking

0:26:23.520 --> 0:26:26.600
<v Speaker 5>at the jury how they wouldn't look at me, And

0:26:27.280 --> 0:26:29.560
<v Speaker 5>I don't know I was I guess I was hopeful

0:26:29.720 --> 0:26:32.000
<v Speaker 5>that I wouldn't be found guilty, but I don't know.

0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:36.200
<v Speaker 5>I just had that eerie feeling that those twelve people

0:26:36.240 --> 0:26:38.560
<v Speaker 5>in there were going to find me guilty, especially after

0:26:38.600 --> 0:26:41.159
<v Speaker 5>the judge sent them all back in. So, you know,

0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:43.560
<v Speaker 5>I was more on the I'm gonna get found guilty

0:26:43.680 --> 0:26:46.200
<v Speaker 5>than I would not being found guilty, I mean being

0:26:46.200 --> 0:26:46.879
<v Speaker 5>found innocent.

0:26:47.119 --> 0:26:49.919
<v Speaker 1>And then the moment comes, and then the moment.

0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:54.399
<v Speaker 5>Comes and they stand up and find me guilty on

0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:58.239
<v Speaker 5>all counts.

0:26:57.880 --> 0:27:00.840
<v Speaker 1>And what can you describe that moment? I mean, I'm

0:27:00.880 --> 0:27:04.080
<v Speaker 1>sure it's painful to even talk about it, but you know,

0:27:04.359 --> 0:27:07.280
<v Speaker 1>was it? I mean the courtroom must have erupted. I'm

0:27:07.280 --> 0:27:09.480
<v Speaker 1>sure there were tears, and I mean, how did you

0:27:09.520 --> 0:27:10.399
<v Speaker 1>even process this?

0:27:11.240 --> 0:27:13.359
<v Speaker 5>At that point. I wasn't even worried about myself. I

0:27:13.400 --> 0:27:15.320
<v Speaker 5>was looking at my mother. I was watching how she

0:27:15.600 --> 0:27:19.119
<v Speaker 5>broke down. I knew there was gonna be complications to

0:27:19.160 --> 0:27:33.200
<v Speaker 5>her health. I just seen the tears. I just seen

0:27:33.280 --> 0:27:36.760
<v Speaker 5>her tears just coming down, and I knew then that

0:27:38.880 --> 0:27:43.119
<v Speaker 5>it was gonna be a tough robe. Man. I just

0:27:43.119 --> 0:27:47.159
<v Speaker 5>just put my head down and just just said, I'm

0:27:47.160 --> 0:27:49.200
<v Speaker 5>gonna have to deal with it whichever way it comes.

0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:51.720
<v Speaker 5>I'm just gonna have to deal with it. But I

0:27:51.760 --> 0:27:55.120
<v Speaker 5>was more concerned about my mother than anything else at

0:27:55.119 --> 0:27:55.600
<v Speaker 5>that moment.

0:27:56.280 --> 0:28:00.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, that says a lot about your character too, And

0:28:00.440 --> 0:28:03.639
<v Speaker 1>you know, and you're here, I think as a result

0:28:04.000 --> 0:28:06.880
<v Speaker 1>of your character and of your you know, the strength

0:28:06.920 --> 0:28:10.600
<v Speaker 1>that you found to withstand something and persevere through something

0:28:10.640 --> 0:28:14.840
<v Speaker 1>that I think almost anybody else would have you know,

0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:19.080
<v Speaker 1>given up, given in, and you know, died in prison

0:28:19.720 --> 0:28:22.359
<v Speaker 1>because you were sentenced to seventy five years to life.

0:28:23.160 --> 0:28:30.080
<v Speaker 1>And now you find yourself in this dangerous, hostile environment

0:28:30.400 --> 0:28:34.800
<v Speaker 1>with no way out where. How can you explain that.

0:28:37.720 --> 0:28:40.280
<v Speaker 5>It was a hard journey I had. I had to

0:28:40.360 --> 0:28:43.360
<v Speaker 5>And I tell this story frequently. I tell adjusting them

0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:46.520
<v Speaker 5>this all the time. I had to basically just trick

0:28:46.640 --> 0:28:49.920
<v Speaker 5>my mind into believing that I was going to get

0:28:49.960 --> 0:28:53.840
<v Speaker 5>out tomorrow, the next day soon. But I knew in

0:28:53.920 --> 0:28:55.960
<v Speaker 5>my hearts of heart that that wasn't going to happen.

0:28:56.040 --> 0:28:58.440
<v Speaker 5>But I had to kind of like trick my mind

0:28:58.520 --> 0:29:01.120
<v Speaker 5>to believe in that. I had to, you know, have

0:29:01.240 --> 0:29:04.080
<v Speaker 5>long talks with myself. I have to had to walk

0:29:04.120 --> 0:29:06.440
<v Speaker 5>back and forth, you know, in a cell and just

0:29:06.480 --> 0:29:09.080
<v Speaker 5>tell myself that it's you know, it's it's gonna get better. Later,

0:29:09.280 --> 0:29:11.520
<v Speaker 5>you're gonna be out, They're gonna find it true, you're

0:29:11.520 --> 0:29:13.239
<v Speaker 5>gonna go home, and all this is gonna be a

0:29:13.240 --> 0:29:18.000
<v Speaker 5>distant memory after three or four years. You know, I'm

0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:21.360
<v Speaker 5>still playing the same game with my mind. I'm praying

0:29:21.400 --> 0:29:23.800
<v Speaker 5>a lot. I'm uh you know, I'm talking to my

0:29:23.840 --> 0:29:27.760
<v Speaker 5>mom and father. They're keeping me strong. Like I said,

0:29:28.160 --> 0:29:31.160
<v Speaker 5>as Justin said, they was at every court day, they

0:29:31.200 --> 0:29:34.840
<v Speaker 5>were at every accepted, every phone call, came to every

0:29:35.000 --> 0:29:39.680
<v Speaker 5>visit they could. They even made sure that my kids

0:29:39.720 --> 0:29:43.120
<v Speaker 5>got there. They brought them so I saw them fight

0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:45.040
<v Speaker 5>for me, so I couldn't let them down. I had

0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:48.000
<v Speaker 5>to fight for myself too, and that's what I did.

0:29:48.360 --> 0:29:50.640
<v Speaker 5>But again, at the same time, I had to play

0:29:50.680 --> 0:29:54.200
<v Speaker 5>with my mind a little bit and make myself really

0:29:54.240 --> 0:29:56.640
<v Speaker 5>believe that I was getting out the next day or

0:29:56.720 --> 0:29:59.240
<v Speaker 5>the day after that, or the week after that, but

0:29:59.360 --> 0:30:01.080
<v Speaker 5>in some near future out with coming home.

0:30:02.000 --> 0:30:07.560
<v Speaker 2>Guy's spirit was incredible, and I deal with hundreds of

0:30:08.120 --> 0:30:12.240
<v Speaker 2>people in prison, every single student who went to see him.

0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:15.760
<v Speaker 2>Every time I saw him, he'd keep his spirits up.

0:30:16.680 --> 0:30:20.760
<v Speaker 2>We'd call him smiley Guy. You know, he never felt

0:30:20.800 --> 0:30:25.520
<v Speaker 2>sorry for himself. He just kept committed towards you know,

0:30:25.680 --> 0:30:27.760
<v Speaker 2>thinking I'm getting out of here, I'm getting out of

0:30:27.800 --> 0:30:30.920
<v Speaker 2>this nightmare. And I think you're right, Jason's there's a

0:30:30.920 --> 0:30:33.200
<v Speaker 2>certain kind of special person You've had a lot of

0:30:33.280 --> 0:30:38.760
<v Speaker 2>them on this show that to survive that situation, like

0:30:39.000 --> 0:30:40.680
<v Speaker 2>you don't know if you'd do it. I don't know

0:30:40.720 --> 0:30:45.440
<v Speaker 2>if i'd do it. And it's hard to believe where

0:30:45.480 --> 0:30:47.960
<v Speaker 2>people can must up that kind of strength to be

0:30:48.120 --> 0:30:51.320
<v Speaker 2>in prison for something you didn't commit. Every morning you

0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:54.760
<v Speaker 2>wake up, it's a surrealistic nightmare. And yet there are

0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:57.240
<v Speaker 2>these special people who survive it like I.

0:31:07.880 --> 0:31:10.120
<v Speaker 1>And so justin how many times did you visit guy

0:31:10.240 --> 0:31:11.640
<v Speaker 1>in prison? Can you even count?

0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:13.880
<v Speaker 2>We had a lot of visits, a lot of time

0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:17.280
<v Speaker 2>in San Quentin. I spent a lot of time up there.

0:31:17.880 --> 0:31:22.040
<v Speaker 2>I every Christmas, I do my Christmas tour and I

0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:24.200
<v Speaker 2>drive all over the state of California and try to

0:31:24.240 --> 0:31:27.880
<v Speaker 2>see all my clients who are locked up because that's

0:31:27.920 --> 0:31:30.840
<v Speaker 2>the hardest time of the year for them. So I

0:31:31.000 --> 0:31:33.360
<v Speaker 2>definitely see a guy every Christmas. In fact, I just

0:31:33.360 --> 0:31:35.160
<v Speaker 2>said to him yesterday, I'm glad I'm not going to

0:31:35.160 --> 0:31:37.640
<v Speaker 2>see you next Christmas in prison.

0:31:38.480 --> 0:31:41.720
<v Speaker 1>Amazing and it would seem like, you know, getting the

0:31:41.760 --> 0:31:45.480
<v Speaker 1>California UNISONCE Project involved. I mean, you literally went from

0:31:45.920 --> 0:31:49.600
<v Speaker 1>the outhouse to the penthouse in terms of legal representation

0:31:49.760 --> 0:31:51.920
<v Speaker 1>to go from. And by the way, I'm going to

0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:53.880
<v Speaker 1>put in a plug right now for people to support

0:31:53.880 --> 0:31:56.200
<v Speaker 1>the California Innis's project and how do they do that?

0:31:56.400 --> 0:31:59.440
<v Speaker 2>Justin go to California Innocence Project dot org and they

0:31:59.440 --> 0:32:02.520
<v Speaker 2>can see Guy mile story there and all the clients

0:32:02.520 --> 0:32:03.080
<v Speaker 2>that we freed.

0:32:03.360 --> 0:32:05.760
<v Speaker 1>That's California Innocence Project dot org. And we're going to

0:32:05.800 --> 0:32:08.920
<v Speaker 1>get into more of that in a minute. But so

0:32:09.960 --> 0:32:13.440
<v Speaker 1>it took fifteen years, even with the best team of

0:32:13.520 --> 0:32:17.400
<v Speaker 1>lawyers you could want or have. And it's interesting too,

0:32:17.480 --> 0:32:18.960
<v Speaker 1>and we're going to get to the happy part of

0:32:18.960 --> 0:32:21.720
<v Speaker 1>the story in a minute, but before we get there,

0:32:21.760 --> 0:32:25.600
<v Speaker 1>because I saw that amazing video of you getting out

0:32:26.440 --> 0:32:31.040
<v Speaker 1>and justin greeting you and driving you, and it's so

0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:34.040
<v Speaker 1>much joy and that it's just really hard to explain.

0:32:34.160 --> 0:32:38.800
<v Speaker 1>And people can watch that too if you Google it,

0:32:38.880 --> 0:32:41.000
<v Speaker 1>or you go to California Innisons Project dot or you'll

0:32:41.040 --> 0:32:44.240
<v Speaker 1>find this remarkable video. It's been viewed millions of times,

0:32:44.240 --> 0:32:47.280
<v Speaker 1>which is so great. Before we get to the the

0:32:48.320 --> 0:32:50.400
<v Speaker 1>you know the best part of the story, which is

0:32:50.440 --> 0:32:56.240
<v Speaker 1>the moment when you were actually declared innocent. Is there

0:32:56.480 --> 0:33:02.640
<v Speaker 1>going back if you could tell us, was there a

0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:05.720
<v Speaker 1>time you could identify or moments you could identify as

0:33:05.720 --> 0:33:08.840
<v Speaker 1>the happiest if there was a happy moment in prison,

0:33:08.920 --> 0:33:11.320
<v Speaker 1>and was there a moment when which was really the

0:33:11.440 --> 0:33:12.840
<v Speaker 1>darkest time that you had?

0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:16.760
<v Speaker 5>Well, I say the darkest, darkest time was finding out

0:33:16.800 --> 0:33:23.280
<v Speaker 5>my mother had cancer. That's when I felt like, oh man,

0:33:23.440 --> 0:33:26.160
<v Speaker 5>how would I get through this? If something happened to

0:33:26.200 --> 0:33:28.239
<v Speaker 5>my mother? How would I get through this? It was

0:33:28.320 --> 0:33:33.360
<v Speaker 5>always that fear of getting a phone call or sliding

0:33:33.480 --> 0:33:35.800
<v Speaker 5>the letter under the door saying you need to go

0:33:35.880 --> 0:33:39.000
<v Speaker 5>see the chaplain. You know, I live with that every

0:33:39.080 --> 0:33:42.600
<v Speaker 5>day when she was in the hospital. But luckily she

0:33:42.680 --> 0:33:48.680
<v Speaker 5>pulled through and she overcame the cancer. My happiest days

0:33:49.080 --> 0:33:52.160
<v Speaker 5>was writing that letter to the California Innison's Project and

0:33:52.200 --> 0:33:55.920
<v Speaker 5>they finally accepted me as a client. I knew then

0:33:56.040 --> 0:33:58.440
<v Speaker 5>that there was hope, and you know, I heard so

0:33:58.520 --> 0:34:00.920
<v Speaker 5>much about the organization, but it was just like I

0:34:00.960 --> 0:34:03.840
<v Speaker 5>can never get in that. You know, everybody tries to

0:34:03.880 --> 0:34:07.120
<v Speaker 5>get to the Innosis Project and get turned down or

0:34:07.600 --> 0:34:11.760
<v Speaker 5>they don't have enough resources to handle their case. So

0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:15.120
<v Speaker 5>you know, in my mind, hey, I'm probably not going

0:34:15.200 --> 0:34:16.839
<v Speaker 5>to make it either, but I'm sure of going to try.

0:34:17.520 --> 0:34:20.759
<v Speaker 5>And I wrote letter after letter after letter, and they

0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:23.120
<v Speaker 5>responded back to me and told me that they will

0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:25.800
<v Speaker 5>review my case. It took like maybe six seven months

0:34:25.800 --> 0:34:29.399
<v Speaker 5>for them to review the case. Man, I was overjoyed there.

0:34:29.560 --> 0:34:31.480
<v Speaker 5>It was like, hey, light at the end of the tunnel,

0:34:31.640 --> 0:34:32.000
<v Speaker 5>but it.

0:34:31.920 --> 0:34:35.200
<v Speaker 2>Was a long tunnel. It was a long legal tunnel.

0:34:35.360 --> 0:34:38.400
<v Speaker 2>Another way this case is extraordinary is we got a

0:34:38.400 --> 0:34:42.440
<v Speaker 2>habeas hearing, but as often happens in California and other states,

0:34:42.480 --> 0:34:44.920
<v Speaker 2>it was assigned back to the trial judge. So the

0:34:44.960 --> 0:34:48.200
<v Speaker 2>trial judge already had his own personal biases about the

0:34:48.239 --> 0:34:50.719
<v Speaker 2>case and he'd heard it, and he kind of went

0:34:50.719 --> 0:34:53.960
<v Speaker 2>through the motions of that hearing and we lost. So

0:34:54.000 --> 0:34:58.080
<v Speaker 2>we presented all the problems with the identification. I cross

0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:01.839
<v Speaker 2>examined the original office who did the ID and in fact,

0:35:01.880 --> 0:35:04.080
<v Speaker 2>by the time I was done my cross examination and

0:35:04.160 --> 0:35:07.120
<v Speaker 2>showed him all the mistakes he'd made, he actually came

0:35:07.160 --> 0:35:09.680
<v Speaker 2>over to me and said, I didn't do any of

0:35:09.719 --> 0:35:13.080
<v Speaker 2>this intentionally, and if it's my mistake that led to

0:35:13.120 --> 0:35:15.600
<v Speaker 2>your guy being wrongfully convicted. I really hope you win.

0:35:16.360 --> 0:35:19.880
<v Speaker 2>So he realized he wasn't even intentionally doing these photo

0:35:20.360 --> 0:35:22.560
<v Speaker 2>rays the way he did it, just wasn't trained. Well,

0:35:22.640 --> 0:35:24.960
<v Speaker 2>this was who they said that. This was the investigating

0:35:25.000 --> 0:35:28.480
<v Speaker 2>officer who did the identification procedure when I showed him

0:35:28.520 --> 0:35:32.160
<v Speaker 2>saying yeah, when I showed him like, you don't put

0:35:32.480 --> 0:35:36.040
<v Speaker 2>photos of people who don't match the description. And I

0:35:36.040 --> 0:35:38.360
<v Speaker 2>took him through all the procedure manuals and how you

0:35:38.400 --> 0:35:40.880
<v Speaker 2>put them together. So we go through the whole hearing,

0:35:40.920 --> 0:35:43.520
<v Speaker 2>we show all the problems with the IDs, we bring

0:35:43.600 --> 0:35:46.480
<v Speaker 2>in the alibi witnesses, we put the whole thing back

0:35:46.520 --> 0:35:49.440
<v Speaker 2>on and we lose. And then a list of beercle

0:35:49.719 --> 0:35:52.840
<v Speaker 2>who's an amazing lawyer in my office, doesn't give up easily.

0:35:53.280 --> 0:35:56.480
<v Speaker 2>She appealed that decision, and then we went back and

0:35:56.520 --> 0:35:58.200
<v Speaker 2>did it a second time and.

0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:00.920
<v Speaker 1>We lost with in the same judge again yes.

0:36:01.520 --> 0:36:03.400
<v Speaker 2>And then we went back up to the Court of

0:36:03.440 --> 0:36:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Appeal and there as a matter of law, reverse the decision,

0:36:06.960 --> 0:36:09.920
<v Speaker 2>saying that we had brought in sufficient evidence that this

0:36:10.040 --> 0:36:14.440
<v Speaker 2>conviction should be reversed. And then we came up against

0:36:14.440 --> 0:36:17.600
<v Speaker 2>another obstacle, which I think is an interesting thing to explore,

0:36:18.080 --> 0:36:21.320
<v Speaker 2>in that the District Attorney's office, after this whole journey,

0:36:21.360 --> 0:36:25.560
<v Speaker 2>said we're we prosecuting. So I sat in a jail

0:36:25.640 --> 0:36:28.080
<v Speaker 2>with guy. I'm sure he'll remember because it was a

0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:31.719
<v Speaker 2>year and two days ago, and I said, here's what

0:36:31.760 --> 0:36:35.680
<v Speaker 2>we're looking at. Man, You've been exonerated, but they can

0:36:35.760 --> 0:36:39.440
<v Speaker 2>always reprosecute. And they say they're reprosecuting, And in fact,

0:36:39.840 --> 0:36:42.799
<v Speaker 2>ALYSSA put together a whole stack of pretrial motions just

0:36:42.840 --> 0:36:45.040
<v Speaker 2>to see if they were bluffing, and they weren't. They

0:36:45.040 --> 0:36:49.080
<v Speaker 2>were going back to trial. Best case scenario, you get

0:36:49.080 --> 0:36:51.200
<v Speaker 2>exonerated at trial, but that means you're going to sit

0:36:51.239 --> 0:36:53.400
<v Speaker 2>here in jail until that's over, and I don't know

0:36:53.400 --> 0:36:56.680
<v Speaker 2>how long that's going to be. Worst case scenario, a

0:36:56.760 --> 0:36:59.439
<v Speaker 2>jury convicts you again, because who knows. I don't think

0:36:59.440 --> 0:37:01.279
<v Speaker 2>that will happen, but I'm sure you didn't think that

0:37:01.320 --> 0:37:04.640
<v Speaker 2>was going to happen the first time round. Right, If

0:37:04.640 --> 0:37:09.080
<v Speaker 2>you take this deal now and plee out, they'll walk

0:37:09.120 --> 0:37:12.440
<v Speaker 2>you out here today. And what do you do in

0:37:12.480 --> 0:37:16.080
<v Speaker 2>that situation? And how do you advise your client? I

0:37:16.200 --> 0:37:17.600
<v Speaker 2>just got to lay it out to them, that's the

0:37:17.600 --> 0:37:20.680
<v Speaker 2>honest truth. I think I'm going to win this retrial.

0:37:20.760 --> 0:37:23.520
<v Speaker 2>I think I'll get you exonerated, but I can't give

0:37:23.560 --> 0:37:26.240
<v Speaker 2>any guarantee of that this will get you out today.

0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:30.239
<v Speaker 2>So plea bargains are now defining the entire system. And

0:37:30.280 --> 0:37:32.879
<v Speaker 2>this wasn't true ten fifteen years ago. When we get

0:37:32.880 --> 0:37:36.680
<v Speaker 2>an exoneration, everyone would walk away. And now I'm seeing

0:37:36.760 --> 0:37:40.719
<v Speaker 2>two paths happen across the United States. There's some vari

0:37:40.719 --> 0:37:43.560
<v Speaker 2>astute district attorneys who are getting ahead of these stories,

0:37:43.880 --> 0:37:47.840
<v Speaker 2>creating conviction review units and getting in on the exonerations.

0:37:48.200 --> 0:37:50.200
<v Speaker 2>And there's other ones that are digging their heels in

0:37:50.440 --> 0:37:53.400
<v Speaker 2>and fighting these things to the bitter end because they

0:37:53.400 --> 0:37:55.600
<v Speaker 2>don't want to lose, they don't want to be sued,

0:37:56.120 --> 0:38:00.160
<v Speaker 2>they don't want these stories in the news. And it's

0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:03.799
<v Speaker 2>really terrible because in California, even in Bakersfield, even in

0:38:03.880 --> 0:38:07.919
<v Speaker 2>San Bornadino, they didn't used to fight exonerations once we won,

0:38:08.320 --> 0:38:09.040
<v Speaker 2>and now they are.

0:38:09.280 --> 0:38:14.080
<v Speaker 1>And it's crazy because you know, you know, the public

0:38:14.120 --> 0:38:17.839
<v Speaker 1>really needs to be made aware that this is your

0:38:17.880 --> 0:38:21.440
<v Speaker 1>tax dollars at work. Right You have prosecutors who've been

0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:26.760
<v Speaker 1>proven wrong, who've had a higher court tell them, huh uh, nope,

0:38:27.280 --> 0:38:32.239
<v Speaker 1>you screwed this up. This wasn't your guy, And they're

0:38:32.239 --> 0:38:34.920
<v Speaker 1>going to come in and instead of doing their jobs,

0:38:35.440 --> 0:38:39.320
<v Speaker 1>they're going to go and spend more weeks and months

0:38:39.440 --> 0:38:42.480
<v Speaker 1>and overtime and this and that and everything else, and

0:38:42.520 --> 0:38:45.480
<v Speaker 1>then they're going all in the hope of reconvicting an

0:38:45.520 --> 0:38:49.040
<v Speaker 1>innocent guy who's then going to go back to prison,

0:38:49.080 --> 0:38:51.040
<v Speaker 1>where we're going to continue to pay for that, right,

0:38:51.239 --> 0:38:55.040
<v Speaker 1>And the cost of incarceration in America are staggering, right,

0:38:55.120 --> 0:38:58.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, just you know, just in terms of on

0:38:58.440 --> 0:39:00.799
<v Speaker 1>a very basic mundane level, just the money that the

0:39:00.840 --> 0:39:04.879
<v Speaker 1>taxpayers pay to keep people innocent people, but everybody.

0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:07.640
<v Speaker 2>They even do it, by the way, Jason, they do

0:39:07.719 --> 0:39:10.480
<v Speaker 2>it in cases where there's no time left. Another one

0:39:10.520 --> 0:39:13.719
<v Speaker 2>of my clients, Bill Richards, they threatened to reprosecute him

0:39:14.239 --> 0:39:17.680
<v Speaker 2>and had he they successfully won that reprosecution. He was

0:39:17.719 --> 0:39:21.800
<v Speaker 2>already on parole. So they were willing to spend county

0:39:21.880 --> 0:39:24.680
<v Speaker 2>money going through an entire murder trial again where at

0:39:24.719 --> 0:39:27.480
<v Speaker 2>the end of that result would be no incarceration anyway,

0:39:28.200 --> 0:39:30.200
<v Speaker 2>So what could that possibly be about? So we filed

0:39:31.120 --> 0:39:35.480
<v Speaker 2>a motion that they were using their office irresponsibly and

0:39:35.520 --> 0:39:39.359
<v Speaker 2>it was prosecutorial misconduct, and then they dropped the case

0:39:39.400 --> 0:39:42.839
<v Speaker 2>when that was picked up by the media. You're absolutely right.

0:39:42.880 --> 0:39:45.439
<v Speaker 2>These are our resources. We only have a limited number

0:39:45.480 --> 0:39:48.440
<v Speaker 2>of resources for criminal justice, and they're just not being

0:39:48.480 --> 0:39:51.680
<v Speaker 2>allocated correctly because a lot of times people's egos derived

0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:55.319
<v Speaker 2>those decisions. You said something, by the way, heartbreaking to

0:39:55.360 --> 0:39:57.680
<v Speaker 2>me that day, guy, and lawyers aren't supposed to cry,

0:39:57.719 --> 0:40:00.120
<v Speaker 2>but it made me cry. And you said to me

0:40:00.120 --> 0:40:04.440
<v Speaker 2>me that you didn't want to let me down by

0:40:04.520 --> 0:40:08.160
<v Speaker 2>taking a play. And I've talked to other lawyers about

0:40:08.160 --> 0:40:10.360
<v Speaker 2>that in our movement because I think it's an important

0:40:10.360 --> 0:40:13.560
<v Speaker 2>message that lawyers remember that sometimes the clients think they're

0:40:13.640 --> 0:40:16.279
<v Speaker 2>letting us down. And I said to you, you know,

0:40:16.320 --> 0:40:18.080
<v Speaker 2>this is your life, man. You got to do what's

0:40:18.120 --> 0:40:20.560
<v Speaker 2>best for your life, and I'm glad you did that.

0:40:21.400 --> 0:40:25.480
<v Speaker 5>You know, they fought so hard since they took my case.

0:40:25.600 --> 0:40:29.920
<v Speaker 5>I mean it was nitty gritty, they got down and dirty.

0:40:29.960 --> 0:40:33.840
<v Speaker 5>They really got out there and got the evidence. I

0:40:33.880 --> 0:40:37.600
<v Speaker 5>mean they fought tooth and nail. We had, Like I said,

0:40:37.719 --> 0:40:42.279
<v Speaker 5>to evident, you're a hearing another hearing in the Pellic court.

0:40:42.520 --> 0:40:45.520
<v Speaker 5>It was like never giving up. So I told Justin

0:40:45.560 --> 0:40:48.719
<v Speaker 5>that because you know, I just watched the dedication in

0:40:48.840 --> 0:40:52.640
<v Speaker 5>him to fight him, and it was just like, man,

0:40:52.719 --> 0:40:55.600
<v Speaker 5>me copping out. It was like letting them down after

0:40:55.760 --> 0:40:58.480
<v Speaker 5>all they did for me, you know. And that's why

0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:01.440
<v Speaker 5>I told you, Man, I just I just I just

0:41:01.480 --> 0:41:05.000
<v Speaker 5>feel bad, you know, like basically bailing out on him.

0:41:06.239 --> 0:41:07.800
<v Speaker 5>And that's why I told him that.

0:41:08.680 --> 0:41:11.320
<v Speaker 1>So you ended up making the decision that I think

0:41:11.800 --> 0:41:16.200
<v Speaker 1>almost anyone would make face with that impossible choice, and

0:41:16.320 --> 0:41:18.520
<v Speaker 1>I had and you had to plead down. You plead

0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:20.279
<v Speaker 1>it down or do you have to plead guilty to

0:41:20.320 --> 0:41:20.680
<v Speaker 1>the crime in.

0:41:20.680 --> 0:41:23.879
<v Speaker 2>The first lead no contest to the charges, right.

0:41:23.880 --> 0:41:27.440
<v Speaker 1>So it's like an Alfred Plate. Yeah, so you pleaded

0:41:27.480 --> 0:41:30.719
<v Speaker 1>no contest. I had to be another bit of pill

0:41:30.760 --> 0:41:34.279
<v Speaker 1>to swallow. And now you have to live the rest

0:41:34.280 --> 0:41:38.719
<v Speaker 1>of your life as a convicted felon, as if they

0:41:38.719 --> 0:41:39.520
<v Speaker 1>didn't do enough.

0:41:39.560 --> 0:41:41.279
<v Speaker 2>And we were trying to and we at the same

0:41:41.400 --> 0:41:45.360
<v Speaker 2>time we're fighting for clemency for guy. This guy is

0:41:45.800 --> 0:41:49.000
<v Speaker 2>part of what we call the California twelve, which are

0:41:49.040 --> 0:41:53.000
<v Speaker 2>twelve clients we identified now it's five six years ago

0:41:53.320 --> 0:41:56.720
<v Speaker 2>as being great cases for clemency from Governor Jerry Brown,

0:41:57.120 --> 0:41:59.319
<v Speaker 2>and the governor has the power to at any time

0:41:59.400 --> 0:42:01.719
<v Speaker 2>give any one and clemency he wants to give in

0:42:01.760 --> 0:42:05.719
<v Speaker 2>the state prison system. Unfortunately, most governors use it in

0:42:06.680 --> 0:42:09.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, to give it to people or connected to power,

0:42:09.920 --> 0:42:12.720
<v Speaker 2>or someone who happens to work in the governor's mansion

0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:16.680
<v Speaker 2>in the garden. It's very random. And so we identified

0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:20.319
<v Speaker 2>these twelve cases and we actually walked clemency petitions from

0:42:20.360 --> 0:42:23.080
<v Speaker 2>my office in San Diego. I walked all the way

0:42:23.120 --> 0:42:26.120
<v Speaker 2>to Sacramento with those clemency petitions, seven hundred and twelve miles.

0:42:26.600 --> 0:42:29.319
<v Speaker 2>Guy's family walked a good portion of that with us.

0:42:30.000 --> 0:42:31.279
<v Speaker 1>And how long did that take?

0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:34.600
<v Speaker 2>It took fifty days. It was walking the entire way

0:42:34.640 --> 0:42:36.440
<v Speaker 2>up the coasts, all in the highways.

0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:38.080
<v Speaker 1>That's as far as Gump shit right there.

0:42:38.160 --> 0:42:41.960
<v Speaker 2>It was. I had far If you go on YouTube

0:42:42.040 --> 0:42:46.200
<v Speaker 2>and say justin Brooks mile four fifty Innocence March, you

0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:48.680
<v Speaker 2>can see how I looked at mile four fifty. I

0:42:48.719 --> 0:42:52.080
<v Speaker 2>looked like far As Gump. And we had hundreds of

0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:54.200
<v Speaker 2>people with us by the time we got to Sacramento

0:42:54.680 --> 0:42:57.560
<v Speaker 2>and we presented those twelve clemency petitions to the governor.

0:42:57.640 --> 0:43:00.200
<v Speaker 2>He has still not acted on any of them. Is

0:43:00.239 --> 0:43:04.240
<v Speaker 2>now five years later, and in that time we've released

0:43:04.280 --> 0:43:07.680
<v Speaker 2>five of those twelve. There's still seven left in prison.

0:43:08.200 --> 0:43:11.200
<v Speaker 2>The governor now has one hundred and I think eighty

0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:15.279
<v Speaker 2>some days left in office, who's counting, And during that

0:43:15.440 --> 0:43:18.799
<v Speaker 2>time he could give clemency to these final seven. And

0:43:18.840 --> 0:43:22.360
<v Speaker 2>so I've been every day on social media asking people

0:43:22.400 --> 0:43:24.800
<v Speaker 2>to call the governor, write the governor, ask him to

0:43:24.840 --> 0:43:28.480
<v Speaker 2>grant clemency to the California twelve. And if anyone can

0:43:28.480 --> 0:43:32.880
<v Speaker 2>follow me on Twitter at Justin O Brooks every single

0:43:32.960 --> 0:43:35.040
<v Speaker 2>day that can retweet to the governor and he gets

0:43:35.080 --> 0:43:37.399
<v Speaker 2>these messages, but he hasn't done anything about it yet.

0:43:37.760 --> 0:43:40.840
<v Speaker 2>And in Guy's case, we're sitting there with a plea offer,

0:43:41.080 --> 0:43:44.840
<v Speaker 2>the possibility of clemency, and it's this very high stakes

0:43:44.840 --> 0:43:47.560
<v Speaker 2>poker that you're playing, and we find to make the

0:43:47.600 --> 0:43:49.759
<v Speaker 2>decision to play in the card of him taking this

0:43:49.840 --> 0:43:51.760
<v Speaker 2>deal so he can move on with his life, which

0:43:52.239 --> 0:43:53.560
<v Speaker 2>is of course Guy's decision.

0:43:53.760 --> 0:43:56.520
<v Speaker 1>There's a rumor going on around that you're going to

0:43:56.600 --> 0:43:57.440
<v Speaker 1>do another walk.

0:43:57.960 --> 0:44:01.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm gonna do the final hundred miles, which is

0:44:01.760 --> 0:44:03.680
<v Speaker 2>actually some of the most brutal part of it because

0:44:03.680 --> 0:44:07.439
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to walk from San Francisco to Sacramento and

0:44:08.000 --> 0:44:12.360
<v Speaker 2>in September a part of it. You're definitely coming and

0:44:12.440 --> 0:44:13.239
<v Speaker 2>walking my brother.

0:44:13.480 --> 0:44:17.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Yeah, sounds like I better get my sneakers out too.

0:44:17.200 --> 0:44:18.799
<v Speaker 1>I love that it'll be.

0:44:18.800 --> 0:44:21.560
<v Speaker 2>The last hundred on the He'll have one hundred days

0:44:21.640 --> 0:44:26.040
<v Speaker 2>left in October, and so on that day we're going

0:44:26.080 --> 0:44:28.439
<v Speaker 2>to walk the last hundred miles and it'll take about

0:44:28.480 --> 0:44:31.640
<v Speaker 2>five days, doing about twenty miles a day, and we'll

0:44:31.719 --> 0:44:34.160
<v Speaker 2>go to Sacramento and try to get his attention again

0:44:34.200 --> 0:44:36.960
<v Speaker 2>to these final seven cases. It's just heartbreaking. They are

0:44:37.040 --> 0:44:41.319
<v Speaker 2>compelling cases, strong evidence of innocence, every one of them.

0:44:41.760 --> 0:44:44.160
<v Speaker 2>And you can see them on our website at California

0:44:44.160 --> 0:44:45.399
<v Speaker 2>Inniston's Project dot org.

0:44:45.640 --> 0:44:47.440
<v Speaker 1>And can people sign up to do the walk there too?

0:44:48.200 --> 0:44:50.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, then get information about the walk and we'll tell

0:44:50.440 --> 0:44:53.200
<v Speaker 2>them what the rallies are and if they follow me

0:44:53.239 --> 0:44:55.680
<v Speaker 2>on Twitter, I'll be tweeting about it between now and then.

0:44:56.440 --> 0:44:59.680
<v Speaker 1>And that's justin Obrooks on Twitter. Why are the last

0:45:00.080 --> 0:45:02.360
<v Speaker 1>one hundred miles the most brutal.

0:45:02.000 --> 0:45:05.480
<v Speaker 2>Because it's so hot and you're just crossing California. I

0:45:05.480 --> 0:45:07.399
<v Speaker 2>mean a lot of people said to me, why didn't

0:45:07.400 --> 0:45:09.600
<v Speaker 2>Why didn't you guys walk up the five. It's like,

0:45:09.640 --> 0:45:11.360
<v Speaker 2>if you walk up the five, you be dead. It

0:45:11.400 --> 0:45:13.960
<v Speaker 2>goes through the desert the whole way. So we did

0:45:13.960 --> 0:45:17.920
<v Speaker 2>the coastal walk and Big Star is very beautiful. It's

0:45:18.400 --> 0:45:20.319
<v Speaker 2>not as fun when you're walking in and going up

0:45:20.360 --> 0:45:23.520
<v Speaker 2>and down those hills, but at least it's not brutally hot.

0:45:23.800 --> 0:45:26.520
<v Speaker 2>But when you cut inland and we hit there at

0:45:26.560 --> 0:45:31.280
<v Speaker 2>around June, it was insanely hot. That last hundred miles

0:45:31.280 --> 0:45:33.920
<v Speaker 2>when you're walking to Sacramento.

0:45:33.120 --> 0:45:36.800
<v Speaker 1>That's a lot of walk And that's an incredible, incredible story,

0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:42.239
<v Speaker 1>and I'm glad you told it. So yeah, I think, Look,

0:45:42.360 --> 0:45:46.279
<v Speaker 1>I'm very optimistic that this governor will do the right thing.

0:45:47.360 --> 0:45:53.800
<v Speaker 1>He's certainly been actively pursuing cases for clemency. He's granted

0:45:54.360 --> 0:45:57.440
<v Speaker 1>I think more clemencies for lifers than any previous governor or.

0:45:57.600 --> 0:46:00.480
<v Speaker 2>Probably he's granted a lot of clemencies, but most of

0:46:00.520 --> 0:46:02.920
<v Speaker 2>them have been out of custody people, right, people with

0:46:03.000 --> 0:46:05.600
<v Speaker 2>old drug charges. But yeah, this governor's been on the

0:46:05.680 --> 0:46:07.600
<v Speaker 2>right side of a lot of issues, a lot of

0:46:07.600 --> 0:46:10.200
<v Speaker 2>progressive issues, which is why I was willing to walk

0:46:10.239 --> 0:46:13.120
<v Speaker 2>seven hundred and twelve miles because I thought, this guy'll do.

0:46:13.160 --> 0:46:17.920
<v Speaker 1>This, and I think it's important for people to realize

0:46:17.920 --> 0:46:21.440
<v Speaker 1>that that stigma is gone. You know, President Obama granted

0:46:21.600 --> 0:46:25.080
<v Speaker 1>seventeen hundred and sixty something clemencies in the last days

0:46:25.120 --> 0:46:28.759
<v Speaker 1>in office, and there wasn't a peep from anybody, like

0:46:29.200 --> 0:46:31.879
<v Speaker 1>and by the way, I was advocating for much many

0:46:31.920 --> 0:46:34.920
<v Speaker 1>more than that, but nobody said a word. Right, there

0:46:34.960 --> 0:46:37.560
<v Speaker 1>was a one article written, hey, wait, what's going on here?

0:46:37.760 --> 0:46:41.040
<v Speaker 1>I mean, like, it's not a thing anymore. So you know,

0:46:41.120 --> 0:46:43.240
<v Speaker 1>it's like it's just not a thing.

0:46:43.200 --> 0:46:45.919
<v Speaker 2>Right, So pendulum always swings right.

0:46:46.560 --> 0:46:50.120
<v Speaker 1>So guy, before we get to the closing of the show,

0:46:50.760 --> 0:46:53.600
<v Speaker 1>I did want to ask you about that moment when

0:46:54.520 --> 0:46:58.320
<v Speaker 1>the High Court the Court of Appeals reverse your conviction,

0:46:58.840 --> 0:47:02.759
<v Speaker 1>because it has to be just the opposite of the

0:47:02.800 --> 0:47:07.040
<v Speaker 1>devastation that you felt when you were wrongfully convicted in

0:47:07.080 --> 0:47:10.000
<v Speaker 1>the first place. Can you describe that moment?

0:47:11.440 --> 0:47:15.279
<v Speaker 5>I was excited when I got the word that the

0:47:15.440 --> 0:47:17.360
<v Speaker 5>Pellic court had reversed my conviction.

0:47:18.440 --> 0:47:19.200
<v Speaker 1>How'd you find out?

0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:22.840
<v Speaker 5>I found Actually I found out through my daughter. She

0:47:23.000 --> 0:47:25.600
<v Speaker 5>told me. She's like, hey, Dad, Hey dad. I happened

0:47:25.640 --> 0:47:28.560
<v Speaker 5>to call my daughter and she was like, hey, Dad,

0:47:28.560 --> 0:47:30.400
<v Speaker 5>did you hear what happened? I was like what. She

0:47:30.520 --> 0:47:32.799
<v Speaker 5>was like, you know, you coming home? I was like, huh,

0:47:32.880 --> 0:47:35.839
<v Speaker 5>what are you talking about? And she said that we

0:47:35.920 --> 0:47:40.840
<v Speaker 5>just got word that the pelicourt reversed your conviction and

0:47:40.840 --> 0:47:42.640
<v Speaker 5>they letting you come home. I was like what. I

0:47:42.640 --> 0:47:44.640
<v Speaker 5>guess she had it all wrong. She heard reverse and

0:47:44.680 --> 0:47:47.080
<v Speaker 5>she thought it just immediately I come home that day,

0:47:47.760 --> 0:47:51.799
<v Speaker 5>so I was excited. I instantly called Justin and them

0:47:51.880 --> 0:47:55.319
<v Speaker 5>and they confirmed what she had told me that the

0:47:55.400 --> 0:47:58.520
<v Speaker 5>pellicourt had reversed my conviction. But there was still a

0:47:58.560 --> 0:48:01.200
<v Speaker 5>process that we needed to go through to see if

0:48:01.400 --> 0:48:04.600
<v Speaker 5>the district attorney was going to retry me or just

0:48:04.640 --> 0:48:07.960
<v Speaker 5>decide to let the case go. We got word that

0:48:08.040 --> 0:48:12.160
<v Speaker 5>the Supreme Court wanted to look at the case, and

0:48:12.200 --> 0:48:16.680
<v Speaker 5>so here the agony again. We're now waiting on a

0:48:16.760 --> 0:48:22.800
<v Speaker 5>Supreme Court to review the appellic Court's decision. But anyway,

0:48:22.840 --> 0:48:26.120
<v Speaker 5>they elected to leave the case as it was. But

0:48:27.480 --> 0:48:29.600
<v Speaker 5>I believe they What was that Justin?

0:48:30.960 --> 0:48:34.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we passed a new evidence law in California. California

0:48:34.440 --> 0:48:37.200
<v Speaker 2>had actually the toughest new evidence law in the country.

0:48:37.640 --> 0:48:39.400
<v Speaker 2>And I know this because I wrote a lat of

0:48:39.440 --> 0:48:41.560
<v Speaker 2>your article on topic and read every one of them.

0:48:41.880 --> 0:48:44.279
<v Speaker 2>And in California, you had to have new evidence that

0:48:44.400 --> 0:48:47.880
<v Speaker 2>completely undermined every element of the prosecution's case.

0:48:48.080 --> 0:48:48.279
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:48:48.760 --> 0:48:52.080
<v Speaker 2>And so unless you have overwhelming evidence of innocence really

0:48:52.120 --> 0:48:54.760
<v Speaker 2>anything short of DNA, and you're going to have trouble

0:48:55.040 --> 0:48:57.879
<v Speaker 2>winning a case in California. And we got a new

0:48:57.960 --> 0:49:01.239
<v Speaker 2>law passed in California that mimics the rest of the

0:49:01.280 --> 0:49:04.160
<v Speaker 2>states that just basically says, if you have evidence that

0:49:04.400 --> 0:49:07.200
<v Speaker 2>you wouldn't have been convicted at trial, had the jury

0:49:07.239 --> 0:49:10.279
<v Speaker 2>heard it, they wouldn't have convicted you, that's sufficient. And

0:49:10.360 --> 0:49:13.520
<v Speaker 2>because we had that new evidence law in California, we

0:49:13.520 --> 0:49:16.680
<v Speaker 2>well surpassed that standard in Guy Miles case.

0:49:17.760 --> 0:49:21.080
<v Speaker 1>So, Guy, you know, it's after talking to you and

0:49:21.160 --> 0:49:24.480
<v Speaker 1>after seeing the video of you on the way home,

0:49:25.560 --> 0:49:27.680
<v Speaker 1>I feel like I know you already, which is great.

0:49:27.719 --> 0:49:29.520
<v Speaker 1>I'm looking forward to getting to know you in person.

0:49:29.960 --> 0:49:35.399
<v Speaker 1>Maybe we'll be doing some walking together. So but we

0:49:35.440 --> 0:49:38.719
<v Speaker 1>have we've come to the point in the show which

0:49:38.760 --> 0:49:41.680
<v Speaker 1>is my favorite part and I think probably the audience's

0:49:41.719 --> 0:49:43.480
<v Speaker 1>favorite part, which is the part when I stopped talking.

0:49:44.040 --> 0:49:48.360
<v Speaker 1>And the tradition here is at the end of each episode,

0:49:48.600 --> 0:49:53.239
<v Speaker 1>I turned it over to our distinguished guests and let

0:49:53.320 --> 0:49:56.600
<v Speaker 1>you have the last word, and you can literally say

0:49:56.800 --> 0:50:02.200
<v Speaker 1>whatever you want about whatever you want. I think everybody

0:50:02.280 --> 0:50:05.920
<v Speaker 1>is me most of all. It's really interested to hear

0:50:05.960 --> 0:50:07.439
<v Speaker 1>what you have to say. But we're going to save

0:50:07.480 --> 0:50:09.399
<v Speaker 1>the best for last, and we're going to let Justin

0:50:09.440 --> 0:50:13.200
<v Speaker 1>go first. So Justin, I'm going to turn it over

0:50:13.200 --> 0:50:14.560
<v Speaker 1>to you.

0:50:14.560 --> 0:50:19.319
<v Speaker 2>You know, this is our collective criminal justice system, right

0:50:19.400 --> 0:50:21.920
<v Speaker 2>so I don't think we can just sit back and

0:50:21.960 --> 0:50:24.759
<v Speaker 2>do nothing about all the failings of it, because it's

0:50:24.800 --> 0:50:28.040
<v Speaker 2>our failings. And that's why I love this show. I

0:50:28.040 --> 0:50:30.279
<v Speaker 2>love the work that you do. I love our community

0:50:30.880 --> 0:50:35.200
<v Speaker 2>because we're trying constantly to make the system better. We

0:50:35.280 --> 0:50:37.839
<v Speaker 2>know we can't perfect it, we know we'll never hit

0:50:37.840 --> 0:50:41.440
<v Speaker 2>one hundred percent, but there's a lot of changes that

0:50:41.480 --> 0:50:43.920
<v Speaker 2>can be made so that innocent people don't go to

0:50:43.960 --> 0:50:46.400
<v Speaker 2>prison and so the innocent people get out of prison.

0:50:47.040 --> 0:50:50.359
<v Speaker 2>And Guy Miles is another example of things that can

0:50:50.400 --> 0:50:54.960
<v Speaker 2>be done to make the system better. Improve identification procedures.

0:50:55.640 --> 0:50:58.600
<v Speaker 2>Let's stop with the sentences that are so high that

0:50:58.640 --> 0:51:01.960
<v Speaker 2>people are forced into plead guilty to things they didn't commit.

0:51:03.280 --> 0:51:05.880
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of reforms that we can make, and

0:51:05.920 --> 0:51:07.960
<v Speaker 2>so I think we learned something about every one of

0:51:08.000 --> 0:51:10.319
<v Speaker 2>these cases, and we learned something that we need to do.

0:51:10.760 --> 0:51:12.760
<v Speaker 2>So i'd ask your audience to, you know, take action

0:51:12.920 --> 0:51:16.600
<v Speaker 2>and get involved. You know, go to our website Californiasanceproject

0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:19.719
<v Speaker 2>dot org see things that you can do, and just

0:51:20.400 --> 0:51:24.520
<v Speaker 2>get involved. Do jury duty, get involved in your community,

0:51:24.640 --> 0:51:26.640
<v Speaker 2>be part of the solution, or you're really part of

0:51:26.680 --> 0:51:27.600
<v Speaker 2>the problem.

0:51:28.040 --> 0:51:31.640
<v Speaker 1>Guy. Hey, we'll turn it over to you now for

0:51:31.840 --> 0:51:32.520
<v Speaker 1>last words.

0:51:33.440 --> 0:51:35.440
<v Speaker 5>First of all, I just want to thank the California

0:51:35.520 --> 0:51:39.920
<v Speaker 5>Nison's Project for even accepting my case and have to

0:51:39.960 --> 0:51:44.560
<v Speaker 5>accepting my case, going the distance to find what was

0:51:44.680 --> 0:51:49.640
<v Speaker 5>needed to show the judge, the justice system, and everybody

0:51:49.640 --> 0:51:53.279
<v Speaker 5>else around that there are actual innocent people in jail.

0:51:54.239 --> 0:51:58.600
<v Speaker 5>My daughter Taja, the hardest part being away from her

0:51:58.800 --> 0:52:03.080
<v Speaker 5>was her first pregnancy, having my grandson. I remember her

0:52:04.040 --> 0:52:06.160
<v Speaker 5>telling me. I know it was hard for her to

0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:08.080
<v Speaker 5>tell me that she was pregnant at a young age,

0:52:08.120 --> 0:52:10.640
<v Speaker 5>and you know, I wasn't there to kind of help

0:52:10.680 --> 0:52:13.200
<v Speaker 5>her through that time, so that was kind of hard

0:52:13.239 --> 0:52:14.880
<v Speaker 5>for me. But I want her to know that I

0:52:14.920 --> 0:52:18.239
<v Speaker 5>love her and I don't judge her, and you know

0:52:18.360 --> 0:52:22.400
<v Speaker 5>she's always gonna be my little baby guy, Charles, you

0:52:22.440 --> 0:52:25.640
<v Speaker 5>know the same to them. You know, those are my boys,

0:52:25.800 --> 0:52:28.480
<v Speaker 5>and I know it was hard for them while I

0:52:28.640 --> 0:52:33.520
<v Speaker 5>was away, but I also loved them, and you know

0:52:33.600 --> 0:52:36.200
<v Speaker 5>I'm home now we can put all that behind us

0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:39.520
<v Speaker 5>and just move forward and just thank God that we're

0:52:39.560 --> 0:52:43.480
<v Speaker 5>able to, you know, reunite and just you know, be

0:52:43.560 --> 0:52:45.839
<v Speaker 5>a family and continue doing what we're doing, and that's

0:52:45.880 --> 0:52:50.759
<v Speaker 5>having fun, talking and enjoying each other's company. And a

0:52:50.760 --> 0:52:55.000
<v Speaker 5>special thanks to my mother and father definitely for not wavering,

0:52:55.320 --> 0:52:58.080
<v Speaker 5>being there for me every step of the way, never

0:52:58.120 --> 0:53:00.480
<v Speaker 5>turning their back on me. Like I said, when I

0:53:00.480 --> 0:53:02.520
<v Speaker 5>got out, they knew I was innocent coming in. They

0:53:02.600 --> 0:53:05.439
<v Speaker 5>knew I was innocent coming out. They continue to fight

0:53:05.520 --> 0:53:09.080
<v Speaker 5>for me, even when it looks like things were bad

0:53:09.120 --> 0:53:11.000
<v Speaker 5>and I wasn't coming home. They never gave up, and

0:53:11.040 --> 0:53:14.399
<v Speaker 5>they continue their fight with Justin Ulyssa and the rest

0:53:14.440 --> 0:53:18.480
<v Speaker 5>of the gang at the California Innocence Project. To everybody

0:53:18.480 --> 0:53:20.840
<v Speaker 5>else out there who's going through the similar or the

0:53:20.880 --> 0:53:25.760
<v Speaker 5>same thing that I'm going through, continue to fight, continue

0:53:25.760 --> 0:53:31.680
<v Speaker 5>to keep hope alized, just stay strong and believe Not

0:53:31.960 --> 0:53:35.960
<v Speaker 5>every da is bad, not every judge is bad, not

0:53:36.160 --> 0:53:41.160
<v Speaker 5>every lawyer is bad. But we just have to pray

0:53:41.520 --> 0:53:44.920
<v Speaker 5>and ask God to just continue giving us strength that

0:53:44.960 --> 0:53:49.120
<v Speaker 5>we do find the good ones. And that's all I

0:53:49.120 --> 0:53:49.960
<v Speaker 5>want to say. Thank you.

0:53:50.680 --> 0:53:53.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's a pleasure and an honor to have you here.

0:53:53.080 --> 0:53:54.960
<v Speaker 1>And like I said, I'm looking forward to getting together

0:53:55.000 --> 0:53:57.399
<v Speaker 1>with you and doing some walking and I will see

0:53:57.440 --> 0:53:59.920
<v Speaker 1>you in California and hopefully someday we'll get you to

0:54:00.040 --> 0:54:02.040
<v Speaker 1>New York and we'll put the red carpet off for

0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:04.400
<v Speaker 1>you again. Thanks for being part of it.

0:54:04.400 --> 0:54:05.080
<v Speaker 5>It's a pleasure.

0:54:05.560 --> 0:54:06.800
<v Speaker 2>Give my love to your parents.

0:54:06.880 --> 0:54:10.200
<v Speaker 1>Guy, I will, I will, all right, see you later.

0:54:21.120 --> 0:54:23.719
<v Speaker 1>Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

0:54:23.760 --> 0:54:27.480
<v Speaker 1>get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud

0:54:27.480 --> 0:54:30.040
<v Speaker 1>donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

0:54:30.160 --> 0:54:33.520
<v Speaker 1>join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

0:54:33.640 --> 0:54:37.560
<v Speaker 1>to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org

0:54:37.719 --> 0:54:40.480
<v Speaker 1>to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like

0:54:40.520 --> 0:54:43.480
<v Speaker 1>to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

0:54:43.840 --> 0:54:46.120
<v Speaker 1>The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

0:54:46.160 --> 0:54:49.200
<v Speaker 1>nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

0:54:49.239 --> 0:54:54.040
<v Speaker 1>Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast.

0:54:54.400 --> 0:54:57.440
<v Speaker 1>Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

0:54:57.480 --> 0:55:00.880
<v Speaker 1>for Good Podcasts and association with s NO Company Number

0:55:00.880 --> 0:55:03.960
<v Speaker 1>one