Speaker 1: I've never been to trouble of my life. I didn't
Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, and you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I was brought up like cops are the good guys.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
Speaker 1: do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like
Speaker 1: everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent.
Speaker 1: I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with this. How is this possible? I grew up
Speaker 1: trusting the systems. I grew up believing that every human
Speaker 1: thing should do the right thing. And that's why, even
Speaker 1: though I was dealing with corros people, I wasn't going
Speaker 1: to brave anyone to get me out of prison because
Speaker 1: I wouldn't live with the fact that I braved my
Speaker 1: way out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent to
Speaker 1: proven guilty. I'm guilty until I proved my innocence. And
Speaker 1: that's absolutely what happened to me. Our system. Since I've
Speaker 1: been out ten years, it's come a little ways, but
Speaker 1: it's still broken, a totally little trust in humanity after
Speaker 1: what happened to me. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back
Speaker 1: to wrongful conviction with Jason flam That's me and today
Speaker 1: we have a great uh program. Um, really really excited
Speaker 1: because one of the people who I really look up
Speaker 1: to in the innocence movement is here. Justin Brooks is
Speaker 1: the founder and director of the California Innocence Project. And
Speaker 1: so Justin welcome to the show. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: And on the phone, we have an extraordinary person named
Speaker 1: Guy Miles, who served over eighteen years in prison for
Speaker 1: a crime that happened in California while he was in
Speaker 1: Las Vegas. And I know that sounds crazy, and it is,
Speaker 1: but when you hear the story, it's just gonna get crazier.
Speaker 1: Miles was convicted of an armed robbery in Fullerton. He
Speaker 1: had an alibi, but in I witness identified him in court.
Speaker 1: Years later, the real robbers confessed and said Miles, this
Speaker 1: guy had nothing to do with it. Um. So Guy,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. As I always say, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're here. Thank you
Speaker 1: very much, appreciate it. Okay, So, UM, Justin take us
Speaker 1: back because this this case. You know, even after twenty
Speaker 1: five years of working in this field, when I read
Speaker 1: this case, I was trying to you know, my head
Speaker 1: was kind of spinning. But can you take us through
Speaker 1: the circumstances of this case and then we'll get with
Speaker 1: guy and walk through the whole situation. Sure, so this
Speaker 1: is a you know, I find myself saying this often,
Speaker 1: as I'm sure you do that this is a crazy case.
Speaker 1: But when you look at the facts of this case,
Speaker 1: it would be literally comical if it didn't have such
Speaker 1: tragic results for guy. Uh. This guy, Bernard Teamer, was
Speaker 1: paying in his car off at a savings and Loan
Speaker 1: and every time he went in there he saw that
Speaker 1: they had a lot of cash. So he gets a
Speaker 1: couple of his buddies together and says, let's go rob
Speaker 1: this place. But they know me in there, so I'll
Speaker 1: wait outside in the car and you guys go in
Speaker 1: and rob it. So they pull up in front of
Speaker 1: the Savings and Loan and Bernard has such a short
Speaker 1: attention span that he actually gets bored while they're doing
Speaker 1: the robbery, and he sees an auto parts store, so
Speaker 1: he decides to do a little shopping, so it gets
Speaker 1: out of his car locks the car, goes in the
Speaker 1: auto parts store and starts asking about parts for a
Speaker 1: rare car that he has. The guys come back who've
Speaker 1: committed the robbery. They can't get in the car, and
Speaker 1: the actual guy who's working the auto parts store points
Speaker 1: out the window and says, hey, I think your boys
Speaker 1: are waiting for you out there. So he runs out,
Speaker 1: unlocks the car, they get in, they drive away. So
Speaker 1: now the the alarms go off. Everybody goes outside, the
Speaker 1: people from the bank or outside. The guy from the
Speaker 1: auto parts stars outside. They say, oh, we just got robbed,
Speaker 1: and he says, oh, I just saw those guys and
Speaker 1: one of them was in here looking for these parts
Speaker 1: for this rare car. It start takes them about five
Speaker 1: minutes to catch Bernard, who is a guilty of this crime,
Speaker 1: and then they start trying to piece together who are
Speaker 1: the other two robbers because Bernard's not giving it up,
Speaker 1: he's not telling them anything. And so the way they
Speaker 1: do it is this officer puts together um photo rays,
Speaker 1: but instead of using the descriptions that are given of
Speaker 1: the robbers, he instead just puts a bunch of people
Speaker 1: who live in the same neighborhood as Bernard Teamer and
Speaker 1: they don't match the descriptions at all. As you go
Speaker 1: through the photos. There's really heavy people, really skinny people,
Speaker 1: light skinned people, dark skinned people, people along dreadlocks, bald people.
Speaker 1: It's the most ridiculous set of photo rays you've ever seen,
Speaker 1: and it's not based on anything except for their associated
Speaker 1: with Bernard team or only one person vaguely matches the
Speaker 1: description and the photo rays, and that's Guy Miles. So
Speaker 1: they went through these photographs of the people in the neighborhood,
Speaker 1: but they actually managed to somehow forget to put in
Speaker 1: the photos of the guys who were in the neighborhood,
Speaker 1: who are the actual perpetrators, who could have been identified
Speaker 1: by any number of these people that were at the
Speaker 1: and to match the descriptions that are given by the witnesses.
Speaker 1: And so we had experts actually go through the photos
Speaker 1: and they said, based on the description given, the only
Speaker 1: person that would be picked here is Guy Miles, because
Speaker 1: they didn't put other people in the photo rays that
Speaker 1: matched the description, and so they violated the most fundamental
Speaker 1: thing of putting a photo ray together. And as you know,
Speaker 1: there's already enough problems with identifications without following any of
Speaker 1: the basic procedures. And the basic procedure is you have
Speaker 1: fillers that matched the description given by the witnesses, and
Speaker 1: there were on in there that fit that description. They
Speaker 1: were all very specific to people in the neighborhood, right.
Speaker 1: And so the way memory works is that your mind,
Speaker 1: especially it's more time goes by and your mind goes
Speaker 1: towards the one who most resembles. And we know that
Speaker 1: memory is. You know, some people think it's like a
Speaker 1: like a like a camera, but it's it's the farthest
Speaker 1: thing from it, and it's easily everyone is easily influenced.
Speaker 1: And this is why UM, Mistaken eyewitness identification is the
Speaker 1: leading cause of wrongful convictions. And in this case, one
Speaker 1: of the witnesses when she came in, she couldn't identify
Speaker 1: him anyway. When Guy Miles was right in front of her,
Speaker 1: she couldn't identify him. And the shocking thing that I've
Speaker 1: seen now in a number of cases is they take
Speaker 1: a recess, they go out in the hallway, the witness
Speaker 1: talks to the district attorney, and the next thing you know,
Speaker 1: they're making the identification. The guy goes off to prison
Speaker 1: for the rest of his life. Yeah, there's it's pretty
Speaker 1: easy to see what could go wrong there. UM and
Speaker 1: we're going to get into more of this. The fact
Speaker 1: that there was there were nine alibi witnesses who could
Speaker 1: have who could have been well some of them did
Speaker 1: play the guy in Las Vegas, right, six of them testified.
Speaker 1: I mean as you said, I mean, and there is
Speaker 1: a very comical element to that, right, the idea that
Speaker 1: the guys in the auto part storeboard and then that's
Speaker 1: about the cars lock. I mean, it's literally like that's
Speaker 1: the beginning of a movie that Yeah, you put Robert
Speaker 1: Downey Jr. And there you got a hit. So, um,
Speaker 1: anybody put Robert down anything, And if that's beside the point,
Speaker 1: So let's go back to you guy, because I want
Speaker 1: to get a sense of what your life was like
Speaker 1: before this this tragedy happened. That turns your life upside down. Well,
Speaker 1: if I grew up in cars in California, UM, raised
Speaker 1: by both my mother and father, UM Christian people, UM,
Speaker 1: good people you know, inherited and and still good values
Speaker 1: in me. You know I was I'm not going to
Speaker 1: say I was an angel. I did get in a
Speaker 1: little trouble, play a lot of sports, got married, head kids.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so you're sort of it sounds like sort
Speaker 1: of a typical childhood. Actually, right, nothing crazy. He does
Speaker 1: have unusual parents, and that both of them are ministers.
Speaker 1: And every single court hearing, I've never had a client's
Speaker 1: family quite like this. The entire courtroom was filled with
Speaker 1: well dressed, well behaved people, polite to the d a,
Speaker 1: polite to the judge, even though he'd gone through this
Speaker 1: total travesty. Wow, yeah, that isn't unusual. Um, I haven't
Speaker 1: heard that either, And um, it's sort of adds a
Speaker 1: real interesting element to this. Um. So then fast forward
Speaker 1: to it was at June nine, long time ago, that
Speaker 1: faithful day when Fidelity Financial Institution in Fullard in California
Speaker 1: was robbed by this the band of idiots. Um, it's
Speaker 1: really like a clown show. And how did you first
Speaker 1: find out that you were a suspect? What what happened?
Speaker 1: And uh? And what day was it? Was it the
Speaker 1: day of or so it was? It was afterwards that
Speaker 1: you first got arrested, right right, there was no It
Speaker 1: was actually a couple of weeks after the robbery took place.
Speaker 1: You know, I got a call from my sister that
Speaker 1: the police were looking for me, wanted to talk to me. Um,
Speaker 1: I came down from Las Vegas. UH, came in, talked
Speaker 1: to the officers. They arrested me, right, They had like
Speaker 1: seven or eight Orange County police officers there, and you know,
Speaker 1: I was it was kind of strange to me because
Speaker 1: I'm like, why is Orange County wanted to talk to me?
Speaker 1: I thought maybe somebody in cards and wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to me. They arrested me and told me that I
Speaker 1: was being booked for robbery in Orange County and I'm like,
Speaker 1: in Orange County. Haven't even been to Orange County. You know,
Speaker 1: I was just I was confused, really didn't know what
Speaker 1: was going on at that point. Did they they read
Speaker 1: They read you your rights and stuff. They read me
Speaker 1: my rights and told me that I was being arrested
Speaker 1: for Orange County robbery and that they were gonna come
Speaker 1: to my house and do a ray to see if
Speaker 1: they can find evidence that links me to the robbery.
Speaker 1: And so they actually drove me back to the house
Speaker 1: rated my house. Uh, of course they found none because
Speaker 1: there was nothing to be found, whisked me off to
Speaker 1: Orange County jail, booked me, and from there death when
Speaker 1: a nightmare started. When did you first get to see
Speaker 1: a lawyer? Did you request the lawyer. Did you give
Speaker 1: an interview voluntarily? How did that roll out? I wasn't
Speaker 1: even thinking about a lawyer because I knew I didn't
Speaker 1: do nothing wrong. So that was the last thing on
Speaker 1: my mind, is requesting the lawyer. Right, And that's something
Speaker 1: in justin your way, in here, whatever you want. That's
Speaker 1: something that I talked about on the show frequently, is
Speaker 1: that if you do get wrongfully arrested, because there's enough people,
Speaker 1: there's enough people listening to this show right now, that
Speaker 1: somebody is going to have this experience. Unfortunately, probably several
Speaker 1: people who are listeners at some point. You don't think
Speaker 1: it can happen to you, but I think you probably
Speaker 1: agree it could happen to any one, right, Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: I agree, I definitely agree. And people think they can
Speaker 1: straighten things out often and the words get twisted. I
Speaker 1: thought this would all be cleared up. I wanted to
Speaker 1: clear it up and go home. And so innocent people
Speaker 1: almost always give statements because they've got nothing to hide,
Speaker 1: and often those times those are twisted and justin you know,
Speaker 1: I think you'll agree, but feel free to correct me
Speaker 1: because you you're in the front lines, on the front
Speaker 1: lines every day. But my advice is give your name,
Speaker 1: your address. And then the next thing you say is
Speaker 1: I want a lawyer. Absolutely, and that's it, because they're
Speaker 1: not your friends. They're not there to help you, and
Speaker 1: nothing you say is going to be is going to
Speaker 1: help you. Right now, there's nothing you can say that. Literally,
Speaker 1: of all the billions of wards in the English language,
Speaker 1: none of them are good except for I want a lawyer.
Speaker 1: The innocent people come in and and and are much
Speaker 1: more forthcoming, and guilty people they're going to be totally
Speaker 1: cooperative because they think I've got nothing to hide. And
Speaker 1: like most people, like I grew up thinking that East
Speaker 1: and and prosecutors in the system is fair and it works,
Speaker 1: and it will. It's there to protect you and to
Speaker 1: protect and serve. That's what it says on the side
Speaker 1: of the thing, right so on the side of the cars.
Speaker 1: But in fact, um you know, in many cases, not always,
Speaker 1: but in many cases they have a different agenda, and
Speaker 1: that agenda is just to get you and and and
Speaker 1: they don't let and guys yours is really a terrible
Speaker 1: but perfect example of that. They didn't want to let
Speaker 1: the fact that there was no evidence connecting you to
Speaker 1: the to the thing, and that the witnesses weren't certain,
Speaker 1: and that you had alibi. I didn't want to let
Speaker 1: any of that get in the way of a perfectly
Speaker 1: good conviction. So you're in there and you're thinking you're
Speaker 1: going home in twenty or thirty minutes, and you're giving
Speaker 1: them these statements. You're you're you're accused of a crime
Speaker 1: in a place that you've never been to that happened
Speaker 1: when you were in a different state. Yeah, and where
Speaker 1: And this one, really, when you think about it, came
Speaker 1: with instructions, right, because this is a crime, and many
Speaker 1: crimes there's no witnesses, right. In this case, you had
Speaker 1: lots of witnesses who got very very good views of it.
Speaker 1: Wasn't there wasn't time. They weren't hundreds of yards away
Speaker 1: like we see in some cases. They were right there, right.
Speaker 1: But I mean, and you had the I mean, the
Speaker 1: probably the perfect witness would have been the guy in
Speaker 1: the in the auto shop or the whatever, the thing
Speaker 1: that that that the crazy idiot went into, right, because
Speaker 1: he was not under duress. Right. And we know that
Speaker 1: witnesses how much harder time identifying people when they're at
Speaker 1: the actual crime scene because they're so stressed out in
Speaker 1: their adrenaline is going crazy. But this guy was just
Speaker 1: trying to sell them some stuff for his fancy car
Speaker 1: or whatever, and so he would have had no stress.
Speaker 1: It was just a typical transaction. And that's why Bernard
Speaker 1: got caught. I mean, Bernard was was in this thing
Speaker 1: without a doubt. But when it came to the other
Speaker 1: I d s. You know, you had guns and people's faces.
Speaker 1: That was violence within the Savings and loan. They were
Speaker 1: cross racial. It had all the indish that you've talked
Speaker 1: about on this show that create for bad identifications, right
Speaker 1: of course. So when did you get to see your lawyer? Lawyer?
Speaker 1: The first day at court because we were looking for
Speaker 1: a lawyer. They they gave me, uh public a defender
Speaker 1: and the public fender came and talked to me. Uh.
Speaker 1: He was really talking about nothing. It seems like he
Speaker 1: was working with them. So my mother and then was like, no,
Speaker 1: we're gonna find a lawyer. Uh. Finally found a lawyer
Speaker 1: by the name of Frank Williams, and he came down
Speaker 1: and talked to me and we went into court pleaded
Speaker 1: not guilty, and that's when the case commenced. But how
Speaker 1: about this Frank Williams guy. Was he He's a terrible lawyer, terrible, terrible.
Speaker 1: We actually hired him because he was a family friend,
Speaker 1: you know, he kind of grew up with us, so
Speaker 1: my mom felt comfortable, you know, hiring him. But he
Speaker 1: came with all kind of sets of problems. His conduct
Speaker 1: was definitely suspicious. So used to come see me two
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning, um, late for court, never prepared.
Speaker 1: I didn't go talk to any other witnesses out of state.
Speaker 1: And it was just, I mean, it was crazy. His
Speaker 1: whole investigation was bizarre. And and how professional was he?
Speaker 1: Even a criminal lawyer? Yeah, he was a criminal lawyer.
Speaker 1: He's this barred. Now there's a criminal lawyer and a
Speaker 1: criminal and we and we see that a lot. It's
Speaker 1: you know, it's always a smell test when you're looking
Speaker 1: through that. We get six thousand letters a year seeking assistance,
Speaker 1: so there's always a smell test with you know, which
Speaker 1: of the cases we think we got an innocent person
Speaker 1: here and we can do something about. And it's breathtaking
Speaker 1: the number of people who we look up the lawyer
Speaker 1: in the colbar dot org website and find that they're disapinted.
Speaker 1: So let's go back to the courtroom. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: you've painted a picture which is really again feels like
Speaker 1: a movie to think about your parents, um being you know,
Speaker 1: distinguished members of the community. UM, your friends being there,
Speaker 1: their friends being there, um, and yet they're like the
Speaker 1: only distinguished people in the court room. As it turns out,
Speaker 1: the rest of the system is broken. So how did it?
Speaker 1: How long did the trial take? And I want to
Speaker 1: get to what the moment was like, which I'm guessing
Speaker 1: was probably the worst moment of your life. It's probably
Speaker 1: a pretty good guess, um, when when you found out
Speaker 1: that you were going to be spending basically the rest
Speaker 1: of your life in prison. Well, the trial took actually
Speaker 1: to get to get to the point of trial, it
Speaker 1: took like almost two years of thought the cave for
Speaker 1: almost two years before I actually went to trial. Once
Speaker 1: I got to trial, um, it was probably like maybe
Speaker 1: four weeks, four to six weeks before the actual verdict
Speaker 1: came down. It's a long trial, and they deliberated for
Speaker 1: a long time. Deliberate, wasn't it five days? They deliberated
Speaker 1: for seven days seven days? So I mean only you
Speaker 1: need to hear is that to know that there's problems
Speaker 1: with the case. If if citizens are willing to sit
Speaker 1: in a room for seven days and argue about it,
Speaker 1: how is there not reasonable doubt after a four to
Speaker 1: six week trial? Right? So these are people who've been
Speaker 1: want to go home. Yeah, they want to go back
Speaker 1: to work, they want to go see their you know,
Speaker 1: whatever the hell they're doing is better than this. Um.
Speaker 1: He actually came at one point, came with a hung jury,
Speaker 1: and the judge sent them back in there, uh redeliberate
Speaker 1: and see if they can come to some kind of
Speaker 1: you know, agreement. And you were being held in custody
Speaker 1: this whole time, the whole time. Where were you guilty
Speaker 1: until proven more guilty? Oh yeah, I've never heard that before.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you can laugh about it now. Um, so
Speaker 1: you were guilty until proven more guilty? And where were
Speaker 1: you being guilty at? Um? Where were they holding you?
Speaker 1: Orange County Jail, Orange County, California, Santa Anna Court. That's
Speaker 1: the court I went to. So the moment comes to
Speaker 1: the hung jury has been sent back and back and whatever,
Speaker 1: and they're sitting there in days, returning into weeks, and um,
Speaker 1: finally they come back in Uh, they tell you they've
Speaker 1: got a verdict. What were you thinking? Did you think
Speaker 1: that after all of this. I'm sure you had lost
Speaker 1: a lot of faith in the system by now, but
Speaker 1: did you still think you were going to be exonerated? Um?
Speaker 1: I did, and I didn't. But let me rewind a
Speaker 1: little bit before that that deliberation, before that verdict came down,
Speaker 1: UM I was. I was in there doing everything I
Speaker 1: could to get noticed to this court. I um wrote
Speaker 1: the mayor of Orange County. UM. I even wrote the witness,
Speaker 1: the victim in the case, and told us he had
Speaker 1: a right to, you know, really investigate this this this
Speaker 1: case and see if I'm really the guy who did it.
Speaker 1: Of course, that letter was returned because they said I
Speaker 1: couldn't write to a victim. UM. I even wrote numerous
Speaker 1: letters to the district attorney. We said down and had
Speaker 1: a long conversation, and she told me in front of him,
Speaker 1: she said, I don't believe you did this case, but
Speaker 1: you're good for it. And I couldn't believe she told
Speaker 1: me that right there in front of my attorney. That
Speaker 1: was then Assistant d A. That was Karen walk and
Speaker 1: she was a deputy District Attorney so she came in.
Speaker 1: I'm just processing this now. So she came in and
Speaker 1: said what exactly she told me to my face, I
Speaker 1: don't believe you did this. The pieces to the puzzle
Speaker 1: doesn't fit. But you're good for it. You've been in
Speaker 1: trouble before, so hey, you're good for it. And they
Speaker 1: even tried to um get my attorney to um have
Speaker 1: me go in the room with Bernard team Er or
Speaker 1: somebody else and where a wire and all kind of
Speaker 1: crazy stuff she was they were trying to set up
Speaker 1: that never even came out, but all that stuff was
Speaker 1: being set up. UM. I even stood up at the
Speaker 1: council table while the witness why the victim was on
Speaker 1: the stand, stood up and asked her if she can
Speaker 1: get off the stand, come look at me closely, and uh. First,
Speaker 1: the the d A rejected it. Then she let her
Speaker 1: come down. The victim came down and said, hey, that's
Speaker 1: not him, that's not the guy right there. The d
Speaker 1: A Russia take a recess Russia. Well it was already
Speaker 1: in recess. Take the victim outside. UM talked to her.
Speaker 1: She come back, They bring the jury back in and
Speaker 1: she points out and said, yeah, that's the guy and
Speaker 1: they said, well, what changed your mind from that time?
Speaker 1: Excuse me, I mean, I'm just in time, just like
Speaker 1: so they asked my lawyer actor, what change your mind
Speaker 1: from the time you said it wasn't him till the
Speaker 1: time the d a together. Still when she showed me
Speaker 1: a picture and I said, that's the guy on the
Speaker 1: picture and it looks like him, and you know, maybe
Speaker 1: he cut his hair or something. They went on this
Speaker 1: long tangem about me cutting my hair or whatever. So um, yeah,
Speaker 1: so they go, so they go back to the they
Speaker 1: go back to the photo that she ided from, and
Speaker 1: this is the classic sourcing error for an identification where
Speaker 1: the witness now is completely confused because they're saying, no, no,
Speaker 1: this is the person you identified. See this is him.
Speaker 1: And now they're matching the photo with guy and of
Speaker 1: course it is him. He's in the photo that they
Speaker 1: did the I D from. And now you're sourcing is
Speaker 1: so difficult. You don't know whether your ide and M
Speaker 1: from the crime scene, your idea and UM from the photo.
Speaker 1: You're being reinforced by them saying this is the person
Speaker 1: who committed the crime. And you see this happens over
Speaker 1: and over and over again. This is not a rare instance. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: the d A saying I know it's not you. You
Speaker 1: have the witness going I know it's not you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I and I witnesses saying I know it's not him. Right,
Speaker 1: nine alibi witnesses going way more than nine. Only nine
Speaker 1: was accepted, all right, Only nine came to court and
Speaker 1: I think six were a lot of testify, but you had.
Speaker 1: That's another frustrating thing about this judge. The judge says,
Speaker 1: this is redundant testimony. How is it? And he limited
Speaker 1: the number of alibi witnesses that it just doesn't make
Speaker 1: And how is it redundant testimony when each individual is
Speaker 1: a separate credibility determination by the jury, when they might
Speaker 1: believe one or won't believe another their different circumstances. The
Speaker 1: judge just was tired of it. Let's move on, Okay,
Speaker 1: A bunch of you say he wasn't there yet half
Speaker 1: of Las Vegas ready to testify for you, right? Basically, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Steve Winn rolled out on the stand. I mean it's like,
Speaker 1: that's the first time I've ever seen that in a
Speaker 1: case where judge said alibi witnesses were redundant testimony. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean why let an alibi witness get in the
Speaker 1: way of a perfectly fiction or perfectly bad conviction in
Speaker 1: this case, Oh my god. UM, And a little interesting
Speaker 1: rock and roll tidbit you'll appreciate. It's one of the
Speaker 1: witnesses described one of the suspects as looking like Warren
Speaker 1: Gy And that becomes important later on when we find
Speaker 1: the guy who does in fact look like Warreney and
Speaker 1: bring him into court and we're looking over him saying,
Speaker 1: this guy does look like Warrengey. Guy Miles doesn't look
Speaker 1: anything like Warrengy. And but this elderly white judge didn't
Speaker 1: seem to be able to make any of those distinctions
Speaker 1: between Um. So I'm not good across racial identification either
Speaker 1: he was. He was as bad or worse at it
Speaker 1: than the witnesses. And while we're on that subject, UM,
Speaker 1: you know, because we're dropping a lot of knowledge here,
Speaker 1: which I'm glad that you know. Having you here is
Speaker 1: really great because of the fact that we can get
Speaker 1: into some of these topics and the way that we do. UM.
Speaker 1: But we know now from study after study that as
Speaker 1: as prone to error as I would say identification is,
Speaker 1: and it's wildly prone to error, we know that cross
Speaker 1: racial identification is much worse, much less reliable. It's the worst,
Speaker 1: it's the worst. Half the people I've walked out of
Speaker 1: prison have been as a result. They were convicted as
Speaker 1: a results across racial identifications. Because when you work in
Speaker 1: southern California, we have we're a mixing pot and it's constant.
Speaker 1: It's whites and Latinos and blacks and Asians, and they're
Speaker 1: almost always wrong. So bear that in mind those of
Speaker 1: you out there who are listening. Um, you know, if
Speaker 1: you're on a jury and you're looking at somebody in
Speaker 1: a case where a you know that's the centerpiece of
Speaker 1: the prosecution, is a an eyewitness identification, be aware that
Speaker 1: they're extremely unreliable. And then if it happens to be
Speaker 1: across racial identification, you can basically just throw it out
Speaker 1: the window, because you know, there have been studies that
Speaker 1: show that you actually have a better chance of being
Speaker 1: right just by guessing. Um. And there's a classic study
Speaker 1: you can look it up from I think it's the
Speaker 1: eighteen nineties in England and it's been it's been done
Speaker 1: over and over again where they took people who didn't
Speaker 1: witness the crime and they got it right more often
Speaker 1: than people who did and that's due to a number
Speaker 1: of factors, including adrenaline and you know, pressures of all
Speaker 1: different kinds and psychological factors and so yeah. Um so
Speaker 1: it just starts, by the way, with it's the first
Speaker 1: four years of our life where we code how to
Speaker 1: do facial recognition. So if your mom is white, your
Speaker 1: dad is white, your brother's white, your sisters are white,
Speaker 1: you actually can't develop that skill to do facial recognition
Speaker 1: as well with other races for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1: If you come from a multiracial family and those first
Speaker 1: few years you get a lot of exposure to a
Speaker 1: lot of races, you get better at it. But it's
Speaker 1: just as simple as that. It's a human thing that
Speaker 1: all human beings need to develop facial recognition, and it
Speaker 1: happens in the first few years of their lives. So
Speaker 1: back to you guy. Um So, now the moment comes,
Speaker 1: it's spending an unbelievable ordeal already and now you've dealt
Speaker 1: with this trial that's gone on for a month and
Speaker 1: a half or whatever it is. The jury shuffles back in. Um,
Speaker 1: did you think at that moment that you were going
Speaker 1: to be found guilty or innocent. I really didn't know.
Speaker 1: I had a bad vibe looking at the jury, how
Speaker 1: they wouldn't look at me, And uh, I don't know
Speaker 1: I was I guess I was hopeful that I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be found guilty, But I don't know. I just I
Speaker 1: just have that eerie feeling that those twelve people in there,
Speaker 1: we're gonna find me guilty, especially after the judge sent
Speaker 1: them all back in. So you know, I was more
Speaker 1: on the I'm gonna get found guilty than I would
Speaker 1: not being found guilty, being found innocent. And then the
Speaker 1: moment comes, and then a moment comes and they stand
Speaker 1: up and find me guilty on all counts. And what
Speaker 1: can you describe that moment? I mean, I'm sure it's
Speaker 1: painful to even talk about it, but um, you know
Speaker 1: was it? I mean the court room must have erupted.
Speaker 1: I'm sure there were tears, and I mean, how did
Speaker 1: you even process this? At that point? I wasn't even
Speaker 1: worried about myself. I was looking at my mother. I
Speaker 1: was watching how she broke down. Um, I knew there
Speaker 1: was gonna be complications to her health. Um, I just
Speaker 1: seen the tears. I just seen her tears just coming down.
Speaker 1: And I knew then that it was gonna be a
Speaker 1: tough robe. Man. I just, um just put my head
Speaker 1: down and just I just said, I'm gonna have to
Speaker 1: deal with it. Whichever way it comes, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: have to deal with it. But I was more concerned
Speaker 1: about my mother than anything else at that moment. Well,
Speaker 1: that says a lot about your character too, um, And
Speaker 1: you know, and you're here, I think as a result
Speaker 1: of your character and of your you know, the strength
Speaker 1: that you found to withstand something and persevere through something
Speaker 1: that I think, uh, almost anybody else would have you know,
Speaker 1: given up, giving in and you know, died in prison
Speaker 1: because you were sentenced to seventy five years to life.
Speaker 1: And now you find yourself in this dangerous, hostile, uh
Speaker 1: environment with no way out where. How can you explain that? Uh?
Speaker 1: It was a hard journey. Um, I had to. I
Speaker 1: had to. And I tell the story frequently. I tell
Speaker 1: adjusting them this all the time. Had to basically just
Speaker 1: trick my mind into believing that I was going to
Speaker 1: get out tomorrow, the next day soon. But I knew
Speaker 1: in my hearts of heart that that wasn't going to happen.
Speaker 1: But I had to kind of like trick my mind
Speaker 1: to believe in that. I had to, you know, have
Speaker 1: long talks with myself. I have to had to walk
Speaker 1: back and forth, you know, in a sale and just
Speaker 1: tell myself that it's you know, it's it's gonna get better. Later,
Speaker 1: you're gonna be out there, gonna find it true. You're
Speaker 1: gonna go home and all this is going to be
Speaker 1: a distant memory after three or four years. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm still playing the same game with my mind. I'm
Speaker 1: praying a lot. I'm uh, you know, I'm talking to
Speaker 1: my mom and father. Um, they're keeping me strong. Like
Speaker 1: I said, as Justice said, they was at every court day,
Speaker 1: they were at every accepted every phone call, came to
Speaker 1: every visit they could. Um, they even made sure that
Speaker 1: my kids got there. They brought them so. UM. I
Speaker 1: saw them fight for me, so I couldn't let them down.
Speaker 1: I had to fight for myself too, and that's what
Speaker 1: I did. But again, at the same time, I had
Speaker 1: to play with my mind a little bit and make
Speaker 1: myself really believe that I was getting out the next
Speaker 1: day or the day after that or the week after that.
Speaker 1: But in some near Guy's spirit was incredible, and I
Speaker 1: deal with hundreds of people in prison, every single student
Speaker 1: who went to see him. Every time I saw him,
Speaker 1: he'd keep his spirits up. We'd call him Smiley Guy.
Speaker 1: He you know, he never felt sorry for himself. He
Speaker 1: just kept committed towards, you know, thinking I'm getting out
Speaker 1: of here, I'm getting out of this nightmare. And I
Speaker 1: think you're right, Jason. It's there's a certain kind of
Speaker 1: special person You've had a lot of them on this
Speaker 1: show that to survive that situation, like you don't know
Speaker 1: if you do it. I don't know if I'd do it.
Speaker 1: And it's hard to believe where people can must up
Speaker 1: that kind of strength to be in prison for something
Speaker 1: you didn't commit. Every morning you wake up as a
Speaker 1: surrealistic nightmare. And yet there are these special people who
Speaker 1: survive it like Guy. And so justin how many times
Speaker 1: did you visit Guy in prison? Can you even count?
Speaker 1: We had a lot of visits, a lot of time
Speaker 1: in San Quentin. It's a lot of time up there. Um.
Speaker 1: I every Christmas, I do my Christmas tour and I
Speaker 1: drive all over the state of California and try see
Speaker 1: all my clients who are locked up because that's the
Speaker 1: hardest time of the year for them. So I've definitely
Speaker 1: see a guy every Christmas. In fact, I just said
Speaker 1: to him yesterday, I'm glad I'm not going to see
Speaker 1: you next Christmas in prison. Amazing and it would seem like,
Speaker 1: you know, getting the California Innocence Project involved. I mean,
Speaker 1: you literally went from the outhouse to the penthouse in
Speaker 1: terms of legal representation to go from um and by
Speaker 1: the way, I'm gonna put in a plug right now
Speaker 1: for people to support the California Indusence Project and how
Speaker 1: do they do that? Justin go to California Innocence Project
Speaker 1: dot org and they can see Guy mile story there
Speaker 1: and and all the clients that we freed. That's California
Speaker 1: Innocence Project dot org. And we're gonna get into more
Speaker 1: of that in a minute. But um. But so it
Speaker 1: took fifteen years, even with the best team of lawyers
Speaker 1: you could want or have. And it's interesting too, and
Speaker 1: we're gonna get to the happy part of the story
Speaker 1: in a minute. Um. But before we get there, because
Speaker 1: I saw that amazing video of of you getting out
Speaker 1: and uh and justin greeting you and driving you and
Speaker 1: so much joy and that it's just really hard to explain.
Speaker 1: And and people can watch that too, UM if you
Speaker 1: if you google it or you go to California Innocence
Speaker 1: Project dot org, you'll find this remarkable video that's been
Speaker 1: viewed millions of times, which is so great. Before we
Speaker 1: get to the the the you know the best part
Speaker 1: of the story, which is the moment when you were
Speaker 1: actually declared innocent? Um, is there going back? If you
Speaker 1: could tell us was there a time you could identify
Speaker 1: or moments you could identify as the happiest, if there
Speaker 1: was a happy moment in prison? And was there a
Speaker 1: moment when which was really the darkest time that you had? Well,
Speaker 1: I said the darkest, darkest time was finding out my
Speaker 1: mother had cancer. UM. That's when I felt like, oh man,
Speaker 1: how will I get through this? If something happened to
Speaker 1: my mother, How would I get through this? It was
Speaker 1: always that fear of getting the phone call or sliding
Speaker 1: the letter under the door saying you need to go
Speaker 1: see the chaplain. You know. I lived with that every
Speaker 1: day when she was in the hospital. UM. But luckily
Speaker 1: she pulled through UM and she overcame the cancer. My
Speaker 1: happiest day was writing that letter to the California Innocence
Speaker 1: Project and they finally accepted me as a client. I
Speaker 1: knew then that there was hope, and you know, I
Speaker 1: heard so much about the organization, but was just like,
Speaker 1: I can never get in that. You know, everybody tries
Speaker 1: to get to the Innocence Project and get turned down
Speaker 1: or they don't have enough resources to handle their case.
Speaker 1: So you know, in my mind, hey, I'm probably not
Speaker 1: gonna make it either, but I'm sure we're gonna try.
Speaker 1: And I wrote letter after letter after letter, and they
Speaker 1: responded back to me and told me that they will
Speaker 1: review my case. It took like maybe six even months
Speaker 1: for them to review the case. Oh man, I was
Speaker 1: overjoyed there. It's like, hey, light at the end of
Speaker 1: the tunnel, but it was a long tunnel. It was
Speaker 1: a long legal tunnel. Another way this case is extraordinary
Speaker 1: is we got a habeas hearing, but as often happens
Speaker 1: in California and other states, it was assigned back to
Speaker 1: the trial judge. So the trial judge Arety had his
Speaker 1: own personal biases about the case and he'd heard it
Speaker 1: and he kind of went through the motions of that hearing,
Speaker 1: and we lost. So we presented all the problems with
Speaker 1: the identification. I cross examined the original officer or who
Speaker 1: did the i D. And in fact, by the time
Speaker 1: I was done my cross examination and showed him all
Speaker 1: the mistakes he'd made, he actually came over to me
Speaker 1: and said, I didn't do any of this intentionally, and
Speaker 1: if it's my mistake that led to your guy being
Speaker 1: wongfully convicted, I really hope you win. So he realized
Speaker 1: he wasn't even intentionally doing these photo rays the way
Speaker 1: he did it just wasn't trained. Well, this was who
Speaker 1: said that. This was the investigating officer who did the
Speaker 1: identification procedure when I showed him saying yeah, when I
Speaker 1: showed him like, you don't put photos of people who
Speaker 1: don't match the description, and I took him through all
Speaker 1: the procedure manuals and how you put them together. So
Speaker 1: we go through the whole hearing, We show all the
Speaker 1: problems with the i D s, We bring in the
Speaker 1: alibi witnesses, we put the whole thing back on and
Speaker 1: we lose, and then a list of beer Cale, who
Speaker 1: was an amazing lawyer in my office. It doesn't give
Speaker 1: up easily. She appealed that decision, and then we went
Speaker 1: back and did it a second time, and we lost
Speaker 1: with the same judge again Yes, and then we went
Speaker 1: back up to the Court of Appeal and there, as
Speaker 1: a matter of law, reversed the decision, saying that we
Speaker 1: had brought in sufficient evidence that this conviction should be reversed.
Speaker 1: And then we came up against another obstacle, which I
Speaker 1: think is an interesting thing to explore, in that the
Speaker 1: District Attorney's office, after this whole journey, said where we're prosecuting.
Speaker 1: So I sat in a jail with guy, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure he'll remember because it was a year and two
Speaker 1: days ago, and I said, here's what we look at. Man.
Speaker 1: You've been exonerated. But they can always reprosecute. And they
Speaker 1: say they're reprosecuting, and in fact, ALYSSA put together a
Speaker 1: whole stack of pre trial motions just to see if
Speaker 1: they were bluffing, and they weren't. They were going back
Speaker 1: to trial. Best case scenario, you get exonerated at trial,
Speaker 1: but that means you're gonna sit here in jail until
Speaker 1: that's over, and I don't know how long that's going
Speaker 1: to be. Worst case scenario, A jury convicts you again,
Speaker 1: because who knows. I don't think that will app but
Speaker 1: I'm sure you didn't think that was gonna happen the
Speaker 1: first time round. If you take this deal now and
Speaker 1: play out, they'll walk you out of here today. And
Speaker 1: what do you do in that situation? And how do
Speaker 1: you advise your client? I just got to lay it
Speaker 1: out to him, that's the honest truth. I think I'm
Speaker 1: gonna win this retrial. I think I'll get you exonerated,
Speaker 1: but I can't give any guarantee of that this will
Speaker 1: get you out today. So polae bargains are now defining
Speaker 1: the entire system. And this wasn't true ten fifteen years ago.
Speaker 1: When we get an exoneration, everyone would walk away. And
Speaker 1: now I'm seeing two paths happening across the United States.
Speaker 1: There's some very astute district attorneys who are getting ahead
Speaker 1: of these stories, creating conviction review units and getting in
Speaker 1: on the exonerations. And there's other ones that are digging
Speaker 1: their heels in and fighting these things to the bitter
Speaker 1: end because they don't want to lose, they don't want
Speaker 1: to be sued, they don't want these stories in the
Speaker 1: news and and it's really terrible because in California, even
Speaker 1: in Bakersfield, even in San Bordardino, they didn't used to
Speaker 1: fight exonerations once we won. Now they are. And it's
Speaker 1: crazy because you know, you know, the public really needs
Speaker 1: to be made aware that this is your tax dollars
Speaker 1: at work. Right. You have prosecutors who have been proven wrong,
Speaker 1: who have had a higher court tell them, huh, nope,
Speaker 1: you screwed this up. This wasn't your guy, and they're
Speaker 1: gonna come in and instead of doing their jobs, they're
Speaker 1: going to go and spend more weeks and months and
Speaker 1: over time and this and that and everything else, and
Speaker 1: then they're going all in the hope of reconvicting an
Speaker 1: innocent guy who's then going to go back to prison,
Speaker 1: where we're going to continue to pay for that, right,
Speaker 1: And the cost of incarceration in America are staggering, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, just you know, just in terms of on
Speaker 1: a very basic mundane level, just the money that the
Speaker 1: tax payers pay to keep people it isn't people, but everybody.
Speaker 1: They even do it, by the way, Jason, they do
Speaker 1: it in cases where there's no time left. Another one
Speaker 1: of my clients, Bill Richards, they threatened to reprosecute him,
Speaker 1: and had he they successfully won that reprosecution, he was
Speaker 1: already on parole, so they were willing to spend county
Speaker 1: money going through an entire murder trial again where at
Speaker 1: the end of that result would be no incarceration. Anyway,
Speaker 1: what could that possibly about? So we filed a motion
Speaker 1: that they would using it their office irresponsibly and it
Speaker 1: was prosecutorial misconduct, and then they dropped the case when
Speaker 1: that was picked up by the media. You're You're absolutely right.
Speaker 1: These are our resources. We only have a limited number
Speaker 1: of resources for criminal justice, and they're just not being
Speaker 1: allocated correctly because a lot of times people's egos derived
Speaker 1: those decisions. You said something, by the way, heartbreaking to
Speaker 1: me that day, guy, and lawyers aren't supposed to cry,
Speaker 1: but it made me cry. And you said to me
Speaker 1: that you didn't want to let me down by taking
Speaker 1: a play. And I've talked to other lawyers about that
Speaker 1: in our movement because I think it's an important message
Speaker 1: that lawyers remember that sometimes the clients think they're letting
Speaker 1: us down. And I said to you, you know, this
Speaker 1: is your life, man, you gotta do what's best for
Speaker 1: your life, and I'm glad you did that. You know,
Speaker 1: they fought so hard, um, since they took my case.
Speaker 1: I mean it was nitty gritty. They they got down
Speaker 1: and dirty. They really got out there and got the evidence.
Speaker 1: I mean they fought too. The nail we had, like
Speaker 1: I said to evidentially hearing another hearing in the Pellet court,
Speaker 1: it was like never giving up. So I told just
Speaker 1: In that because you know, I just watched the dedication
Speaker 1: in them, the fighting them, and it was just like, man,
Speaker 1: me me copping out. It was like letting them down
Speaker 1: after all they did for me, you know. And that's
Speaker 1: why I told you, Man, I just I just I
Speaker 1: just felt bad, you know, like basically bailing out on them,
Speaker 1: And that's why I told him. Mat. So you ended
Speaker 1: up making the decision that I think almost anyone would
Speaker 1: make face with that impossible choice, Um and I had
Speaker 1: and you had to plead down. And you plead it
Speaker 1: down or do you have to plead guilty to the
Speaker 1: crime in the first lead no contest to the charges, right,
Speaker 1: So it's like an Alfred play. Yeah, Um, so you
Speaker 1: pleaded no contest. Had to be another bit of pill
Speaker 1: to swallow. Um, And now you have to live the
Speaker 1: rest of your life as a convicted felon. Don't tell
Speaker 1: me about it as if they didn't do enough. And
Speaker 1: we were trying to and we at the same time,
Speaker 1: we're fighting for clemency for guy. This guy is is
Speaker 1: part of what we call the California Twelve, which are
Speaker 1: twelve clients we identified now it's five six years ago
Speaker 1: as being great cases for clemency from Governor Jerry Brown.
Speaker 1: And the governor has the power to it any time,
Speaker 1: give any and clemency he wants to give in the
Speaker 1: state prison system. Unfortunately, most governors use it in you know,
Speaker 1: to give it to people are connected to power, or
Speaker 1: someone who happens to work in the governor's mansion in
Speaker 1: the garden. It's very random. And so we identified these
Speaker 1: twelve cases and we actually walked clemency petitions from my
Speaker 1: office in San Diego. I walked all the way to
Speaker 1: Sacramento with those clemency petitions, seven hundred twelve miles. Guy's
Speaker 1: family walked a good portion of that with us. And
Speaker 1: how long did that take? It took fifty days. It
Speaker 1: was walking the entire way up the coasts, all in
Speaker 1: the highways right there. It was I had. I had
Speaker 1: a far have some If you go on YouTube and
Speaker 1: say Justin Brooks Mile four fifty Innocent March, you can
Speaker 1: see how I looked at mile four fifty. I look
Speaker 1: like far As Gump and and we had hundreds of
Speaker 1: people with us by the time we got to Sacramento
Speaker 1: and we presented those twelve clemency petitions to the governor.
Speaker 1: He has still not acted on any of them. Is
Speaker 1: now five years later, and in that time we've released
Speaker 1: five of those twelve. There's still seven left in prison.
Speaker 1: The governor now has a hundred and I think eighty
Speaker 1: some days left in office, who's counting, And during that
Speaker 1: time he could give clemency to these final seven. And
Speaker 1: so I've been every day on social media asking people
Speaker 1: to call the governor. Right the governor asked him to
Speaker 1: grant clemency to the California twelve and um, if anyone
Speaker 1: can follow me on Twitter at Justin O. Brooks every
Speaker 1: single day, they can retweet to the governor and he
Speaker 1: gets these messages, but he hasn't done anything about it yet.
Speaker 1: And in Guy's case, we're sitting there with a plea
Speaker 1: offer the possibility of clemency and it's this very high
Speaker 1: stakes poker that you're playing, and we find to make
Speaker 1: the decision to play in the card of him taking
Speaker 1: this deal so he can move on with his life, which,
Speaker 1: of course guy's decision. There's a rumor going on around
Speaker 1: that you're gonna do another walk. Yeah, I'm gonna do
Speaker 1: the final hundred miles, which is actually some of the
Speaker 1: most brutal part of it, because I'm gonna walk from
Speaker 1: San Francisco to Sacramento. And Uh, in September, you're definitely
Speaker 1: coming and walking my brother. Yeah, it sounds like I
Speaker 1: better get my sneakers out to love that it will
Speaker 1: be the last hundred on the He will have a
Speaker 1: hundred days left in October, and so on that day
Speaker 1: we're gonna walk the last hundred miles and they'll take
Speaker 1: about five days, doing about twenty miles a day, and
Speaker 1: we'll go to Sacramento and try and get his attention
Speaker 1: again to these final seven cases. It's just heartbreaking. They
Speaker 1: are compelling cases, strong evidence of innocence, every one of them.
Speaker 1: And you can see him on our website at California
Speaker 1: Innocence Project dot org. Can people sign up to do
Speaker 1: the walk there too? Uh? Yeah, then get information about
Speaker 1: the walk and we'll tell them where the rallies are
Speaker 1: and and if they follow me on Twitter, I'll be
Speaker 1: tweeting about it between now and then. And that's justin
Speaker 1: O Brooks on Twitter. Um, why are the last hundred
Speaker 1: miles the most brutal because it's so hot and you're
Speaker 1: just crossing California. I mean a lot of people said
Speaker 1: to me, why didn't why didn't you guys walk up
Speaker 1: the five. It's like, if you walk up the five,
Speaker 1: you'd be dead. It goes through the desert the whole way.
Speaker 1: So we did the coastal walk and and Big Star
Speaker 1: is very beautiful. Uh, It's it's not as fun when
Speaker 1: you're walking in and going up and down those hills,
Speaker 1: but at least it's not brutally hot. But when you
Speaker 1: cut Inland and we hit there and around June, uh,
Speaker 1: it was insanely hot. That last hundred miles when you're
Speaker 1: walking to Sacramento. That's uh, that's a lot of walk
Speaker 1: And that's an incredible, incredible story and I'm glad you
Speaker 1: told it. Um. So Uh yeah, I think Look, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm very optimistic that this governor will do the right thing. Um,
Speaker 1: he's certainly been actively pursuing cases for clemency. He's granted, Um,
Speaker 1: I think more clemencies for lifers than any previous governor or.
Speaker 1: Probably he's granted a lot of clemencies, but most of
Speaker 1: them been out of custody people, people with old drug charges.
Speaker 1: But yeah, this governor has been on the right side
Speaker 1: of a lot of issues, a lot of progressive issues,
Speaker 1: which is why I was willing to walk seven D
Speaker 1: twelve miles because I thought this guy will do this.
Speaker 1: And uh, I think it's important for people to realize
Speaker 1: that that stigma is gone. You know, President Obama granted
Speaker 1: seventeen hundred and sixty something clemencies in the last days
Speaker 1: in office, and there wasn't a peep from anybody like
Speaker 1: and by the way, I was advocating for much more,
Speaker 1: many more than that, but nobody said a word. Right,
Speaker 1: there was a one article written, are they wait, what's
Speaker 1: going on? You know, I mean like it's it's not
Speaker 1: a thing anymore. So you know, it's like it's just
Speaker 1: not a thing. So pendulum always swings right. So, um, guy,
Speaker 1: before we get to the closing of the show, UM,
Speaker 1: I did want to ask you about that moment when
Speaker 1: the High Court the Court of Appeals reverse your conviction,
Speaker 1: because it has to be just the opposite of the
Speaker 1: devastation that you felt, um when you were wrongfully convicted
Speaker 1: in the first place. Can you describe that moment? I
Speaker 1: was excited when I got the word that, uh, the
Speaker 1: pellicord had reversed my conviction. Um, how did you find out?
Speaker 1: I found Actually I found out through my daughter. She
Speaker 1: told me. She's like, hey, Dad, Hey Dad. I happened
Speaker 1: to call my daughter and uh, she was like, hey, Dad,
Speaker 1: did you hear what happened? I was like what. She
Speaker 1: was like, you know, you're coming home. I was like, huh,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? And she said that we
Speaker 1: just got word that, um, the pelicort reverse your conviction
Speaker 1: and they're letting you come home. I was like what.
Speaker 1: I guess she had it all wrong. She heard reverse
Speaker 1: and she thought it just immediately I come home that day, So, Uh,
Speaker 1: I was excited. I instantly called justin in them and
Speaker 1: they confirmed what she had told me that the pelicord
Speaker 1: had reversed my conviction. But there was still a process
Speaker 1: that we needed to go through to see if the
Speaker 1: digit attorney was going to retry me or just decided
Speaker 1: to let the case go. We got word that the
Speaker 1: Supreme Court wanted to look at the case, and so
Speaker 1: here the agony again. We're now waiting on a Supreme
Speaker 1: Court to review the appealing courts of decision. But anyway,
Speaker 1: they elected to um leave the case as it was.
Speaker 1: But um, I believe they what was that just in they? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we we passed a new evidence law in California. California
Speaker 1: had actually the toughest new evidence law in the country.
Speaker 1: And I know this because I wrote a law of
Speaker 1: ardicle on topic and read every one of them. And
Speaker 1: in California, you had to have new evidence that completely
Speaker 1: undermined every element of the prosecution's case. And so unless
Speaker 1: you have overwhelming evidence of innocence really anything short at DNA,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna have trouble winning a case in California.
Speaker 1: And we got a new law passed in California that
Speaker 1: mimics the rest of the states that just basically says,
Speaker 1: if you have evidence that you wouldn't have been convicted
Speaker 1: at trial had the jury heard it, they wouldn't have
Speaker 1: convicted you. That's sufficient. And because we had the new
Speaker 1: evidence law in California. We well surpassed that standard in
Speaker 1: Guy Miles case. So Guy, you know it's after talking
Speaker 1: to you and after seeing the video of you on
Speaker 1: the way home, I feel like I know you already,
Speaker 1: which is great. I'm looking forward to getting to know
Speaker 1: you in person. Maybe we'll be doing in some walking together.
Speaker 1: Um So, but we have a We've come to the
Speaker 1: point in the show which is my favorite part and
Speaker 1: I think probably the audience's favorite part, which is a
Speaker 1: part when I stopped talking. And the tradition here is
Speaker 1: at the end of each episode, I turned it over
Speaker 1: to our distinguished guests and let you have the last word,
Speaker 1: and you can literally say whatever you want about whatever
Speaker 1: you want. Um I think everybody's me most of all.
Speaker 1: It's really interested to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 1: But we're gonna save the best for last, and we're
Speaker 1: gonna let Justin go first. So Justin, I'm gonna turn
Speaker 1: it over to you. You know this, this is our
Speaker 1: collective criminal justice system, right so I don't think we
Speaker 1: can just sit back and do nothing about all the
Speaker 1: failings of it, because it's our failings. And that's why
Speaker 1: I love this show. I love the work that you do.
Speaker 1: I love our community because we're trying constantly to make
Speaker 1: the system better. We know we can't perfect it, we
Speaker 1: know we'll never hit a UM. But there's a lot
Speaker 1: of changes that can be made so that innocent people
Speaker 1: don't go to prison, and so the innocent people get
Speaker 1: out of prison. And Guy Miles is another example of
Speaker 1: things that can be done to make the system better.
Speaker 1: Improve identification procedures. Let's stop with the sentences that are
Speaker 1: so high that people are forced into pleading guilty to
Speaker 1: things they didn't commit. UM. There's a lot of reforms
Speaker 1: that we can make. And so I think we learned
Speaker 1: something about every one of these cases, and we learned
Speaker 1: something that we need to do. So i'd ask your
Speaker 1: audience to, you know, take action and get involved, you know,
Speaker 1: go to our website California Instance Project dot org see
Speaker 1: things that you can do and and and just get involved.
Speaker 1: Do jury duty, get involved in your community, be part
Speaker 1: of the solution, or you're really part of the problem. Guy,
Speaker 1: we'll turn it over to you now for last words.
Speaker 1: First of all, I just want to thank the California
Speaker 1: Innosance Project for even accepting my case, and after accepting
Speaker 1: my case, going the distance to UM find what was
Speaker 1: needed to show the judge, the justice system, and everybody
Speaker 1: else around that there are actual innocent people in jail.
Speaker 1: My daughter Taja Um, the hardest part being away from
Speaker 1: her was her first pregnancy, UM, having my grandson. I
Speaker 1: remember her telling me. I know it was hard for
Speaker 1: her to tell me that she was praying me at
Speaker 1: a young age, and you know, I wasn't there too
Speaker 1: kind of help her through that time, so that was
Speaker 1: kind of hard for me. But I want her to
Speaker 1: know that I love her and I don't judge her,
Speaker 1: and you know, she's always gonna be my little baby. Um.
Speaker 1: Guy Charles, you know the same to them. You know,
Speaker 1: those are my boys, and I know it was hard
Speaker 1: for them while I was away, but I also loved them,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I'm home now. We can put
Speaker 1: all that behind us and just move forward and just
Speaker 1: thank God that we're able to, you know, reunite and
Speaker 1: just you know, be a family and continue doing what
Speaker 1: we're doing, and that's having fun, talking and enjoying each
Speaker 1: other's company. And a special thanks to my mother and father,
Speaker 1: UM definitely for not wavering, being there for me every
Speaker 1: step of the way, never turning their back on me,
Speaker 1: Like I there when I got out. They knew I
Speaker 1: was innocent coming in. They knew I was innocent coming out. Um.
Speaker 1: They continue to fight for me, even when it looks
Speaker 1: like things were bad and I wasn't coming home. They
Speaker 1: never gave up, and they continue their fighting with Justin
Speaker 1: Ulyssa and the rest of the gang at the California
Speaker 1: Innocence Project. Um. To everybody else out there who's going
Speaker 1: through the similar or the same thing that I'm going through, UM,
Speaker 1: continue to to fight, continue to keep hope alized, just
Speaker 1: stay strong, and and believe not every d A is bad,
Speaker 1: not every judge is bad, not every lawyer is bad.
Speaker 1: But we just have to pray and ask God to
Speaker 1: just continue giving us strength that we do find a
Speaker 1: good one. And uh, that's all I want to say.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Well, it's a it's a pleasure and an
Speaker 1: honor to have you here. And like I said, I'm
Speaker 1: looking forward to getting together with you and doing some walking. Um,
Speaker 1: and I will see you in California and hopefully someday
Speaker 1: will get you to New York and we'll put the
Speaker 1: red carpet off for you again. Thanks for being part
Speaker 1: of it. Give my love to your parents. Guy, I will,
Speaker 1: I will all right, see you later. Don't forget to
Speaker 1: give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
Speaker 1: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in
Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn
Speaker 1: how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank
Speaker 1: our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music
Speaker 1: on the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful
Speaker 1: Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for
Speaker 1: Good Podcasts and association with Say Doug Company Number one