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Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: I was brought up with cops are the good guys.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

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Speaker 3: do know that everything was stacked against me.

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Speaker 2: Everything like everything.

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Speaker 3: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I

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Speaker 3: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do

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Speaker 3: with this. How is this possible?

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Speaker 4: I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing

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Speaker 4: that every human being should do the right thing. And

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Speaker 4: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with

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Speaker 4: corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get

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Speaker 4: me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the

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Speaker 4: fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.

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Speaker 2: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I

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Speaker 2: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.

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Speaker 1: Our system.

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Speaker 5: Since I've been out ten years, it has come a

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Speaker 5: little ways, but it's still broken.

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Speaker 4: I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.

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Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with

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Speaker 1: Jason Flamm that's me, and today we have a great program.

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Speaker 1: I'm really really excited because one of the people who

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Speaker 1: I really look up to in the innocence movement is here.

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Speaker 1: Justin Brooks is the founder and director of the California

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Speaker 1: Innocence Project. And so Justin welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: And on the phone, we have an extraordinary person named

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Speaker 1: Guy Miles, who served over eighteen years in prison for

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Speaker 1: a crime that happened in California while he was in

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Speaker 1: Las Vegas. And I know that sounds crazy, and it is,

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Speaker 1: but when you hear the story, it's just going to

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Speaker 1: get crazier.

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Speaker 2: Miles was convicted of a nineteen ninety eight armed robbery

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Speaker 2: and Fullerton. He had an alibi, but an eyewitness.

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Speaker 1: Identify him in court.

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Speaker 5: Years later, the real robbers confessed and said Miles, this

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Speaker 5: guy had nothing to do with it.

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Speaker 1: So Guy, welcome to the show. As I always say,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're here.

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Speaker 5: Thank you very much, appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so Justin take us back because this case, you know,

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Speaker 1: even after twenty five years of working in this field,

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Speaker 1: when I read this case, I was trying to you know,

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Speaker 1: my head was kind of spinning. But can you take

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Speaker 1: us through the circumstances of this case and then we'll

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Speaker 1: get with guy and walk through the whole situation.

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Speaker 2: Sure, so this is a you know, I find myself

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Speaker 2: saying this often, as I'm sure you do that this

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Speaker 2: is a crazy case. But when you look at the

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Speaker 2: facts of this case, it would be literally comical if

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Speaker 2: it didn't have such tragic results for guy. This guy,

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Speaker 2: Bernard Teamer, was paying his car off at a Savings

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Speaker 2: and Loan and every time he went in there he

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Speaker 2: saw that they had a lot of cash. So he

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Speaker 2: gets a couple of his buddies together and says, let's

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Speaker 2: go rob this place. But they know me in there,

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Speaker 2: so I'll wait outside in the car and you guys

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Speaker 2: go in and rob it. So they pull up in

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Speaker 2: front of the Savings and Loan and Bernard has such

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Speaker 2: a short attention span that he actually gets bored while

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Speaker 2: they're doing the robbery, and he sees an auto parts store,

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Speaker 2: so he decides to do a little shopping, so he

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Speaker 2: gets out of his car, locks the car, goes in

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Speaker 2: the autoparts store and starts asking about parts for a

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Speaker 2: rare car that he has. The guys come back who've

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Speaker 2: committed the robbery. They can't get in the car, and

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Speaker 2: the actual guy who's working the autoparts store points out

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Speaker 2: the window and says, hey, I think your boys are

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Speaker 2: waiting for you out there. So he runs out, unlocks

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Speaker 2: the car, they get in, they drive away. So now

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Speaker 2: the alarms go off. Everybody goes outside. The people from

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Speaker 2: the bank are outside, the guy from the autoparts star

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Speaker 2: is outside. They say, oh, we just got robbed, and

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Speaker 2: he says, oh, I just saw those guys, and one

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Speaker 2: of them was in here looking for these parts for

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Speaker 2: this rare car. It so takes them about five minutes

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Speaker 2: to catch Bernard, who is one hundred percent guilty of

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Speaker 2: this crime, and then they start trying to piece together

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Speaker 2: who are the other two.

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Speaker 1: Robbers because Bernard's not giving it up.

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Speaker 2: He's not telling them anything. And so the way they

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Speaker 2: do it is this officer puts together photo rays, but

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Speaker 2: instead of using the descriptions that are given of the robbers,

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Speaker 2: he instead just puts a bunch of people who live

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Speaker 2: in the same neighborhood as Bernard Teamer and they don't

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Speaker 2: match the descriptions at all. As you go through the photos,

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Speaker 2: there's really heavy people, really skinny people, light skinned people,

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Speaker 2: dark skinned people, people with long dreadlocks, bald people. It's

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Speaker 2: the most ridiculous set of photo rays you've ever seen.

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Speaker 2: In it it's not based on anything except for their associated

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Speaker 2: with Bernard Teamer. Only one person vaguely matches the description

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Speaker 2: and the photo rays, and that's Guy Miles.

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Speaker 1: So they went through these photographs of the people in

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Speaker 1: the neighborhood, but they actually managed to somehow forget to

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Speaker 1: put in the photos of the guys who were in

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Speaker 1: the neighborhood who were the actual perpetrators, who could have

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Speaker 1: been identified by any number of these people that were

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Speaker 1: at the time.

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Speaker 2: And to match the descriptions that are given by the witnesses.

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Speaker 2: And so we had experts actually go through the photos

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Speaker 2: and they said, based on the description given, the only

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Speaker 2: person that would be picked here is Guy Miles, because

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Speaker 2: they didn't put other people in the photo rays that

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Speaker 2: matched the description. And so they violated the most fundamental

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Speaker 2: thing of putting a photo ray together. And as you know,

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Speaker 2: there's already enough problems with identifications without following any of

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Speaker 2: the basic procedures and the basic procedure is you have

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Speaker 2: fillers that match the description given by the witnesses and

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Speaker 2: on in there that fit that description. They were all

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Speaker 2: very specific to people in the neighborhood, right.

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Speaker 1: And so the way memory works is that your mind,

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Speaker 1: especially as more time goes by, and your mind goes

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Speaker 1: towards the one who most resembles. And we know that

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Speaker 1: memory is you know, some people think it's like a camera,

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Speaker 1: but it's the farthest thing from it, and it's easily

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Speaker 1: everyone is easily influenced. And this is why mistake and

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Speaker 1: eyewitness identification is the leading cause of wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 2: And in this case, one of the witnesses when she

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Speaker 2: came in, she couldn't identify him anyway. When Guy Miles

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Speaker 2: was right in front of her, she couldn't identify him.

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Speaker 2: And the shocking thing that I've seen now in a

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Speaker 2: number of cases is they take a recess, they go

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Speaker 2: out in the hallway, the witness talks to the district attorney,

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Speaker 2: and the next thing you know, they're making the identification.

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Speaker 2: Guy goes off to prison for the rest of his life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty easy to see what could go wrong there.

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Speaker 1: And we're going to get into more of this, the

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Speaker 1: fact that there was there were nine alibi witnesses who

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Speaker 1: could have who could have and well some of them

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Speaker 1: did play a guy in Las Vegas, right, six of

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Speaker 1: them testified. I mean as you said, I mean, and

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Speaker 1: there is a very comical element to that, right, the

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Speaker 1: idea that the guys in the autopart store board and

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Speaker 1: then that's to come out of the cars lock. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's literally like that's the beginning of a movie that start. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you put Robert Donney Jr. In there, you got a hit,

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Speaker 1: So put robertized Junior or anything. But that's beside the point.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to you guy, because I want

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Speaker 1: to get a sense of what your life was like

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Speaker 1: before this this tragedy happened that turns your life upside down.

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Speaker 5: Well, if I grew up in Carson, California, raised by

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Speaker 5: both my mother and father Christian people, good people you

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Speaker 5: know inher died and instill good values in me, you know,

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Speaker 5: I was I'm not going to say I was an angel.

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Speaker 5: I did get in a little trouble, played a lot

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Speaker 5: of sports, got married, head kids.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so you sort of it sounds like sort

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Speaker 1: of a typical childhood. Actually right, nothing crazy.

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Speaker 2: He does have unusual parents, and that both of them

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Speaker 2: are ministers. And every single court hearing, I've never had

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Speaker 2: a client's family quite like this. The entire courtroom was

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Speaker 2: filled with well dressed, well behaved people, polite to the da,

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Speaker 2: polite to the judge, even though he'd gone through this

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Speaker 2: total travesty.

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Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, that is an unusual I haven't heard that either,

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Speaker 1: and it sort of adds a real interesting element to this.

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Speaker 1: So then fast forward to it was at June twenty ninth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, a long time ago, that faithful day

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Speaker 1: when Fidelity Financial Institution at Fullord in California was robbed

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Speaker 1: by these band of idiots. It's really like a clown show.

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Speaker 1: And how did you first find out that you were

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Speaker 1: a suspect? What happened? And what day was it? Was

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Speaker 1: it the day of or it was it was afterwards

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Speaker 1: that you first got arrested?

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Speaker 5: Right, right, it was No, it was actually a couple

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Speaker 5: of weeks after the robbery took place. You know, I

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Speaker 5: got a call from my sister that the police were

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Speaker 5: looking for me, wanted to talk to me. I came

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Speaker 5: down from Las Vegas, h came in, talked to the officers.

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Speaker 5: They arrested me, right, They had like seven or eight

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Speaker 5: Orange County police officers there, and you know, I was

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Speaker 5: it was kind of strange to me because I'm like,

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Speaker 5: why is Orange County wanted to talk to me? I

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Speaker 5: thought maybe somebody in cards and wanted to talk to me.

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Speaker 5: They arrested me and told me that I was being

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Speaker 5: booked for a robbery in Orange County, and I'm like,

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Speaker 5: in Orange County. I've even been to Orange County. You know,

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Speaker 5: I was just I was confused, really didn't know what

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Speaker 5: was going on at that point.

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Speaker 1: Did they read you your rights and stuff?

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Speaker 5: They read me my rights and told me that I

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Speaker 5: was being arrested for Orange County robbery and that they

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Speaker 5: were going to come to my house and do a

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Speaker 5: raid to see if they can find evidence that links

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Speaker 5: me to the robbery. And so they actually drove me

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Speaker 5: back to the house rated my house. Of course, they

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Speaker 5: found none because it was nothing to be found, whisked

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Speaker 5: me off to Orange County jail, booked me, and from

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Speaker 5: there that's where the nightmare started.

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Speaker 1: When did you first get to see a lawyer? Did

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Speaker 1: you request a lawyer? Did you give an interview voluntarily.

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Speaker 1: How did that roll out?

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Speaker 5: So I wasn't even thinking about a lawyer because I

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Speaker 5: knew I didn't do nothing wrong. So that was the

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Speaker 5: last thing on my mind, is requesting the.

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Speaker 1: Lawyer, right, And that's something in justin you wait in here,

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Speaker 1: whatever you want. That's something that I talk about on

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Speaker 1: the show frequently, is that if you do get wrongfully arrested,

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Speaker 1: because there's enough people instance that there's enough people listening

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Speaker 1: to this show right now, that somebody is going to

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Speaker 1: have this experience. Unfortunately, probably several people who are listeners

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Speaker 1: at some point. You don't think it can happen to you,

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Speaker 1: but I think, guy, you'd probably agree it could hapen

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Speaker 1: anyway one, right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, right, I agree, I definitely agree.

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Speaker 2: And people think they can straighten things out often and

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Speaker 2: their words get twisted. I thought this would all be

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Speaker 2: cleared up. I wanted to clear it up and go home, right,

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Speaker 2: And so innocent people almost always give statements because they've

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Speaker 2: got nothing to hide, and often those times those are twisted.

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Speaker 1: And justin you know, I think you'll agree, but feel

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Speaker 1: free to correct me because you're in the front lines,

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Speaker 1: on the front lines every day. But my advice is

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Speaker 1: give your name, your address. And then the next thing

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Speaker 1: you say is I want a lawyer. Absolutely, and that's it,

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Speaker 1: because they're not your friends. They're not there to help you,

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Speaker 1: and nothing you say is going to be is going

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Speaker 1: to help you. Right, there's nothing you can say that literally,

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Speaker 1: of all the billions of words in the English language,

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Speaker 1: none of them are good except for I want a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: Innocent people come in and are much more forthcoming than

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Speaker 1: guilty people.

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Speaker 2: Sure, they're going to be totally cooperative because they think

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Speaker 2: I've got nothing to hide.

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Speaker 1: And like most people, like I grew up thinking that,

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Speaker 1: and prosecutors in the system is fair and it works,

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Speaker 1: and it will. It's there to protect you and to

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Speaker 1: protect and serve. That's what it says on the side

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Speaker 1: of the thing, right, so on the side of the cars.

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Speaker 1: But in fact, you know, in many cases, not always,

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Speaker 1: but in many cases they have a different agenda, and

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Speaker 1: that agenda is just to get you, and and they

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Speaker 1: don't let and guys yours is really a terrible but

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Speaker 1: perfect example of that. They didn't want to let the

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Speaker 1: fact that there was no evidence connecting you to the

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Speaker 1: to the thing, and that the witnesses weren't certain and

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Speaker 1: that you had alibi, and they didn't want to let

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Speaker 1: any of that get in the way of a perfectly

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Speaker 1: good conviction. So you're in there and you're thinking you're

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Speaker 1: going home in twenty or thirty minutes, and you're giving

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Speaker 1: them these statements. You're you're accused of a crime in

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Speaker 1: a place that you've never been to that happened when

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Speaker 1: you were in a different state, correct, Yeah, and where?

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Speaker 1: And this one, really, when you think about it, came

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Speaker 1: with instructions, right, because this is a crime, and many

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Speaker 1: crimes there's no witnesses, right. In this case, you had

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Speaker 1: lots of witnesses who got very very good views of it.

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Speaker 1: There wasn't time, They weren't hundreds of yards away like

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Speaker 1: we see in some cases. They were right there, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and you had the I mean, the probably

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Speaker 1: the perfect witness would have been the guy in the

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Speaker 1: in the auto shop or the whatever, the thing that

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Speaker 1: the crazy idiot went into, right, because he was not

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Speaker 1: under duress.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And we know that witnesses how much harder time identifying

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Speaker 1: people when they're at the actual crime scene because they're

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Speaker 1: so stressed out and there adrenaline is going crazy. But

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Speaker 1: this guy was just trying to sell them some stuff

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Speaker 1: for his fancy car or whatever, and so he would

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Speaker 1: have had no stress. It was just a typical transaction.

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Speaker 2: And that's why Bernard got caught. I mean, Bernard was

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Speaker 2: was in this thing without a doubt, right, But when

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Speaker 2: it came to the other IDs, you know, you had

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Speaker 2: guns in people's faces. There was violence within the Savings

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Speaker 2: and Loan. They were cross racial. It had all the

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Speaker 2: indsha that you've talked about on this show that create

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Speaker 2: for bad identifications.

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Speaker 1: Right of course. So did you get to see your lawyer.

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Speaker 5: I'll see my lawyer the first day at court because

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Speaker 5: we were looking for a lawyer. They gave me a

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Speaker 5: public a defender, and public defender came and talked to me.

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Speaker 5: He was really talking about nothing. Seems like he was

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Speaker 5: working with them. So my mother and then was like, no,

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Speaker 5: we're going to find a lawyer. Finally found a lawyer

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Speaker 5: by the name of Frank Williams, and he came down

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Speaker 5: and talked to me and we went into court pleaded

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Speaker 5: not guilty, and that's when the case commenced.

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Speaker 1: But how about this Frank Williams guy. Was he He's.

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Speaker 5: A terrible lawyer, terrible terrible. We actually hired him because

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Speaker 5: he was a family friend, you know, he kind of

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Speaker 5: grew up with us, so my mom felt comfortable, you know,

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Speaker 5: hire him. But he came with all kind of sets

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Speaker 5: and problems. His conduct was definitely suspicions. So he used

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Speaker 5: to come see me two o'clock in the morning, late

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Speaker 5: for court, never prepared, didn't go talk to any other

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Speaker 5: witnesses out of state, and it was just, I mean,

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Speaker 5: it was crazy. His whole investigation was bizarre and unprofessional.

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Speaker 1: Was he even a criminal lawyer?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, he was a criminal lawyer. He's just born. Now.

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Speaker 1: Oh there's a criminal lawyer and a criminal well.

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Speaker 2: And we see that a lot. It's you know, it's

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Speaker 2: always a smell test when you're looking through that. We

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Speaker 2: get six thousand letters a year seeking assistance, so there's

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Speaker 2: always a smell test with you know, which of the

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Speaker 2: cases we think we got an innocent person here and

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Speaker 2: we can do something about. And it's breathtaking the number

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Speaker 2: of people who we look up the lawyer in thecowbar

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Speaker 2: dot org website and find that they're disbonded.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to the courtroom. You know, you've

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Speaker 1: painted a picture which is really again, feels like a

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Speaker 1: movie to think about your parents being you know, distinguished

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Speaker 1: members of the community, your friends being there, their friends

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Speaker 1: being there, and yet they're like the only distinguished people

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Speaker 1: in the courtroom. As it turns out, the rest of

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Speaker 1: the system is broken. So how did it? How long

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Speaker 1: did the trial take? And I want to get to

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Speaker 1: what the moment was like, which I'm guessing was probably

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Speaker 1: the worst moment of your life. It's probably a pretty

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Speaker 1: good guess when when you found out that you were

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Speaker 1: going to be spending basically the rest of your life

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Speaker 1: in prison.

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Speaker 5: Well, the trial took actually to get to get to

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Speaker 5: the point of trial, it took like almost two years.

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Speaker 5: I fought the cave for almost two years before I

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Speaker 5: actually went to trial. Once I got to trial, it

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Speaker 5: was probably like maybe four weeks, four to six weeks

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Speaker 5: before the actual verdict came down.

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Speaker 2: It's a long trial, and they deliberated for a long time.

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Speaker 2: Wasn't it five days? They deliberated for seven days?

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Speaker 5: Seven days deliberation.

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Speaker 2: So I mean only you need to hear is that

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Speaker 2: to know that there's problems with a case If citizens

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Speaker 2: are willing to sit in a room for seven days

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Speaker 2: and argue about it. How is there not reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 1: After a four to six week trial? Right, So these

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Speaker 1: are people who've been want to go home. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: want to go back to work, they want to go

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Speaker 1: see their you know, whatever the hell they're doing is

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Speaker 1: better than this.

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Speaker 5: Yes, he actually came at one point, came with a

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Speaker 5: hung jury and the judge sent them back in there

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Speaker 5: to redliberate and see if they can come to some

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Speaker 5: kind of you know, agreement.

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Speaker 1: And you were being held in custody this whole time.

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Speaker 5: The whole time, where were you We're guilty until proven

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Speaker 5: more guilty?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I never heard that before. I'm glad you

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Speaker 1: could laugh about it now. So you were guilty until

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Speaker 1: proven more guilty? And where were you being guilty at?

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Speaker 1: Where were they holding you?

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Speaker 5: Orange County Jail, Orange County, California, Santa Hanah Court. That's

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Speaker 5: the court I went to.

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Speaker 1: So the moment comes to hung jury has been sent

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Speaker 1: back and back and whatever, and they're sitting there in days,

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Speaker 1: they're turning into weeks, and finally they come back in. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they tell you they've got a verdict. What were you thinking?

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Speaker 1: Did you think that after all of this? I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you had lost a lot of faith in the system

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Speaker 1: by now, But did you still think you were going

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Speaker 1: to be exonerated?

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Speaker 5: I did, and I didn't. But let me rewind a

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Speaker 5: little bit before that, uh, that deliberation, before that verdict

356
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Speaker 5: came down, I was. I was in there doing everything

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Speaker 5: I could to get noticed to this court. I wrote

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Speaker 5: the mayor of Orange County. I even wrote the witness,

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Speaker 5: the victim in the case and told hers, you have

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Speaker 5: a right to you know, really investigate this this this

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Speaker 5: case and see if I'm really the guy who did it.

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Speaker 5: Of course, that letter was returned because they said I

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Speaker 5: couldn't write to a victim. I even wrote numerous letters

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Speaker 5: to the district attorney. We sat down, had a long conversation,

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Speaker 5: and she told me in front of him, she said,

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Speaker 5: I don't believe you did this case, but you're good

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Speaker 5: for it. And I couldn't believe. She told me that

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Speaker 5: right there in front of my attorney.

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Speaker 1: That was an assistant DA.

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Speaker 5: That was Karen walk and she was in a deputy

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Speaker 5: district attorney.

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Speaker 1: So she came in. I'm just processing this now. So

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Speaker 1: she came in and said.

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Speaker 5: What exactly She told me to my face, I don't

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Speaker 5: believe you did this the pieces to the puzzle doesn't fit,

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Speaker 5: but you're good for it. You've been in trouble before,

377
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Speaker 5: so hey, you're good for it. And they even tried

378
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Speaker 5: to get my attorney to have me go in the

379
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Speaker 5: room with Bernard Teamer or somebody else and wear a

380
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Speaker 5: wire and all kind of crazy stuff she was they

381
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Speaker 5: were trying to set up. That never even came out,

382
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Speaker 5: but all that stuff was being set up. I even

383
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Speaker 5: stood up at the council table while the witness while

384
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Speaker 5: the victim was on the stand, stood up and asked

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Speaker 5: her if she can get off the stand, come look

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Speaker 5: at me closely. And first du the DA rejected, and

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Speaker 5: then she let her come down. The victim came down

388
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Speaker 5: and said, hey, that's not him, that's not the guy

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Speaker 5: right there. The DA rushed, take a recess. Rushing, well,

390
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Speaker 5: it was already in recess. Take the victim outside, talk

391
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Speaker 5: to her. She come back. They bring the jury back

392
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Speaker 5: in and she points me out and say, yeah, that's

393
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Speaker 5: the guy. And they say, well, what change your mind

394
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Speaker 5: from that time?

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Speaker 1: Excuse me, I mean, I'm just just like that.

396
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Speaker 5: So they asked my lawyer asked her, what change your

397
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Speaker 5: mind from the time you said it wasn't him till

398
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Speaker 5: the time the DA took youther so well, she showed

399
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Speaker 5: me a picture and I said, that's the guy on

400
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Speaker 5: the picture right, and it looks like him, and you know,

401
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,359
Speaker 5: maybe he cut his hair or something. It went on

402
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,919
Speaker 5: this long tangem about me cutting my hair or whatever.

403
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Speaker 5: So yeah, so.

404
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Speaker 2: They go, so they go back to the they go

405
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Speaker 2: back to the photo that she id'd from, and this

406
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 2: is the classic sourcing error for an identification where the

407
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Speaker 2: witness now is completely confused because they're saying, no, no,

408
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 2: this is the person you identified. See this is him.

409
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Speaker 2: And now they're matching the photo with guy and of

410
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Speaker 2: course it is him. He's in the photo that they

411
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Speaker 2: did the ID from. And now your sourcing is so difficult.

412
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Speaker 2: You don't know whether your ID in them from the

413
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Speaker 2: crime scene, your idnum from the photo. You're being reinforced

414
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Speaker 2: by them saying this is the person who committed the crime.

415
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Speaker 1: Wow.

416
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Speaker 2: And you see this happens over and over and over again.

417
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Speaker 2: This is not a rare instance.

418
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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, the DA saying I know it's not you. You

419
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Speaker 1: have the witness going I know it's not you, yeah,

420
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Speaker 1: I and eyewitnesses saying I know it's not right nine

421
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Speaker 1: alibi witnesses going away more than nine?

422
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Speaker 5: Only nine was accepted.

423
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Speaker 1: Oh right, only nine came to court, and I think

424
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Speaker 1: six were allowed to testify, but you had.

425
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Speaker 2: That's another frustrating thing about this judge. The judge says

426
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Speaker 2: this is redundant testimony.

427
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Speaker 1: Well how is it?

428
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Speaker 2: And he limited the number of alibi witnesses. It just

429
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Speaker 2: doesn't make it. And how is it redundant testimony when

430
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 2: each individual is a separate credibility determination by the jury

431
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 2: where they might believe one I won't believe another. There

432
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Speaker 2: are different circumstances. The judge just was tired of it.

433
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Speaker 2: Let's move on. Okay, A bunch of you say he

434
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Speaker 2: wasn't there?

435
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, half a Las Vegas ready to testify for you, right, basically, Yeah,

436
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 1: Steve Winn rolled out on the stand.

437
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Speaker 2: I mean it's like, that's the first time I've ever

438
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 2: seen that in a case where judge said alibi witnesses

439
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 2: were redundant testimony.

440
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, why let an alibi witness get in

441
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: the way of a perfectly get in fiction, right, or

442
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 1: a perfectly bad conviction in this case? Oh my god.

443
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 2: And a little interesting rock and roll tidbit you'll appreciate

444
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 2: is one of the witnesses described one of the suspects

445
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 2: as looking like Warren G. And that becomes important later

446
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 2: on when we find the guy who does in fact

447
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 2: look like Warren g And bring him into court and

448
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 2: we're looking over him saying, this guy does look like

449
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 2: Warren G. Guy Miles doesn't look anything like Warrang g And,

450
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 2: but this elderly white judge didn't seem to be able

451
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 2: to make any of those distinctions between not a wrap.

452
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 2: So I'm not good at a cross racial identification either

453
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,479
Speaker 2: he was. He was as bad or worse at it

454
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 2: than the witnesses.

455
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: And while we're on that subject, you know, because we're

456
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,239
Speaker 1: dropping a lot of knowledge here, which I'm glad that

457
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 1: you know. Having you here is really great because of

458
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: the fact that we can get into some of these

459
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,159
Speaker 1: topics and the way that we do. But we know

460
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: now from study after study that as as prone to

461
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: error as I would say identification is, and it's wildly

462
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: prone to error, we know that cross racial identification is

463
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: much worse, much less reliable. It's the worst, it's the worst.

464
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 2: Half the people I've walked out of prison have been

465
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: as a result, they were convicted as a result of

466
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 2: cross racial identifications. Because when you work in southern California,

467
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 2: we have we're a mixing pot and it's constant. It's

468
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 2: whites and Latinos and blacks and Asians, and they're almost

469
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 2: always wrong.

470
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: So bear that in mind those of you out there

471
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: who are listening. You know, if you're on a jury

472
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,439
Speaker 1: and you're looking at somebody in a case where a

473
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 1: you know that's the centerpiece of the prosecution is an

474
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: eyewitness identification, be aware that they're extremely unreliable. And then

475
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: if it happens to be a cross racial identification, you

476
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: can basically just throw it out the window, because you know,

477
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: there have been studies that show that you actually have

478
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,360
Speaker 1: a better chance of being right just by guessing. Yep.

479
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: And there's a classic study you could look it up

480
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: from I think it was the eighteen nineties in England

481
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: and it's been done over and over again where they

482
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: took people who didn't witness the crime and they got

483
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: it right more often than people who did. And that's

484
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: due to a number of factors, including the adrenaline and

485
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: you know, pressures of all different kinds and psychological factors

486
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: and so yeah, so that.

487
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: Just starts, by the way, with it's the first four

488
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 2: years of our life where we code how to do

489
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 2: facial recognition. So if your mom is white, your dad

490
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 2: is white, your brother's white, your sisters are white, you

491
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 2: actually can't develop that skill to do facial recognition as

492
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 2: well with other races for the rest of your life.

493
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 2: If you come from a multi racial family and those

494
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: first few years you get a lot of exposure to

495
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 2: a lot of races, you get better at it. But

496
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 2: it's just as simple as that. It's a human thing

497
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 2: that all human beings need to develop facial recognition, and

498
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 2: it happens in the first few years of their lives.

499
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: So back to you, guy, OK, So, now the moment

500
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: comes is spending an unbelievable ordeal already and now you've

501
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: dealt with this trial that's gone on for a month

502
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 1: and a half or whatever it is. The jury shuffles

503
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: back in. Did you think at that moment that you

504
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: were going to be found guilty or innocent?

505
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 5: I really didn't know. I had a bad vibe looking

506
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 5: at the jury how they wouldn't look at me, And

507
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 5: I don't know I was I guess I was hopeful

508
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 5: that I wouldn't be found guilty, but I don't know.

509
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 5: I just had that eerie feeling that those twelve people

510
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 5: in there were going to find me guilty, especially after

511
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 5: the judge sent them all back in. So, you know,

512
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 5: I was more on the I'm gonna get found guilty

513
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 5: than I would not being found guilty, I mean being

514
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 5: found innocent.

515
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: And then the moment comes, and then the moment.

516
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 5: Comes and they stand up and find me guilty on

517
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,239
Speaker 5: all counts.

518
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: And what can you describe that moment? I mean, I'm

519
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: sure it's painful to even talk about it, but you know,

520
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: was it? I mean the courtroom must have erupted. I'm

521
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: sure there were tears, and I mean, how did you

522
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: even process this?

523
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 5: At that point. I wasn't even worried about myself. I

524
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 5: was looking at my mother. I was watching how she

525
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 5: broke down. I knew there was gonna be complications to

526
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 5: her health. I just seen the tears. I just seen

527
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 5: her tears just coming down, and I knew then that

528
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 5: it was gonna be a tough robe. Man. I just

529
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 5: just put my head down and just just said, I'm

530
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 5: gonna have to deal with it whichever way it comes.

531
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna have to deal with it. But I

532
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 5: was more concerned about my mother than anything else at

533
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 5: that moment.

534
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: Well, that says a lot about your character too, And

535
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: you know, and you're here, I think as a result

536
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 1: of your character and of your you know, the strength

537
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: that you found to withstand something and persevere through something

538
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: that I think almost anybody else would have you know,

539
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: given up, given in, and you know, died in prison

540
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: because you were sentenced to seventy five years to life.

541
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: And now you find yourself in this dangerous, hostile environment

542
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: with no way out where. How can you explain that.

543
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 5: It was a hard journey I had. I had to

544
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 5: And I tell this story frequently. I tell adjusting them

545
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 5: this all the time. I had to basically just trick

546
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 5: my mind into believing that I was going to get

547
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 5: out tomorrow, the next day soon. But I knew in

548
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 5: my hearts of heart that that wasn't going to happen.

549
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 5: But I had to kind of like trick my mind

550
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 5: to believe in that. I had to, you know, have

551
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 5: long talks with myself. I have to had to walk

552
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 5: back and forth, you know, in a cell and just

553
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 5: tell myself that it's you know, it's it's gonna get better. Later,

554
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 5: you're gonna be out, They're gonna find it true, you're

555
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,239
Speaker 5: gonna go home, and all this is gonna be a

556
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 5: distant memory after three or four years. You know, I'm

557
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 5: still playing the same game with my mind. I'm praying

558
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 5: a lot. I'm uh you know, I'm talking to my

559
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 5: mom and father. They're keeping me strong. Like I said,

560
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 5: as Justin said, they was at every court day, they

561
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 5: were at every accepted, every phone call, came to every

562
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 5: visit they could. They even made sure that my kids

563
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 5: got there. They brought them so I saw them fight

564
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 5: for me, so I couldn't let them down. I had

565
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 5: to fight for myself too, and that's what I did.

566
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 5: But again, at the same time, I had to play

567
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 5: with my mind a little bit and make myself really

568
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 5: believe that I was getting out the next day or

569
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 5: the day after that, or the week after that, but

570
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 5: in some near future out with coming home.

571
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: Guy's spirit was incredible, and I deal with hundreds of

572
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: people in prison, every single student who went to see him.

573
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: Every time I saw him, he'd keep his spirits up.

574
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: We'd call him smiley Guy. You know, he never felt

575
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: sorry for himself. He just kept committed towards you know,

576
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: thinking I'm getting out of here, I'm getting out of

577
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: this nightmare. And I think you're right, Jason's there's a

578
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 2: certain kind of special person You've had a lot of

579
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: them on this show that to survive that situation, like

580
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 2: you don't know if you'd do it. I don't know

581
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: if i'd do it. And it's hard to believe where

582
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: people can must up that kind of strength to be

583
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 2: in prison for something you didn't commit. Every morning you

584
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 2: wake up, it's a surrealistic nightmare. And yet there are

585
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: these special people who survive it like I.

586
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: And so justin how many times did you visit guy

587
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: in prison? Can you even count?

588
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: We had a lot of visits, a lot of time

589
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 2: in San Quentin. I spent a lot of time up there.

590
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: I every Christmas, I do my Christmas tour and I

591
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: drive all over the state of California and try to

592
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: see all my clients who are locked up because that's

593
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 2: the hardest time of the year for them. So I

594
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: definitely see a guy every Christmas. In fact, I just

595
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: said to him yesterday, I'm glad I'm not going to

596
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: see you next Christmas in prison.

597
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: Amazing and it would seem like, you know, getting the

598
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: California UNISONCE Project involved. I mean, you literally went from

599
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: the outhouse to the penthouse in terms of legal representation

600
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: to go from. And by the way, I'm going to

601
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: put in a plug right now for people to support

602
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: the California Innis's project and how do they do that?

603
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 2: Justin go to California Innocence Project dot org and they

604
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: can see Guy mile story there and all the clients

605
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 2: that we freed.

606
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: That's California Innocence Project dot org. And we're going to

607
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: get into more of that in a minute. But so

608
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: it took fifteen years, even with the best team of

609
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: lawyers you could want or have. And it's interesting too,

610
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: and we're going to get to the happy part of

611
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: the story in a minute, but before we get there,

612
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: because I saw that amazing video of you getting out

613
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: and justin greeting you and driving you, and it's so

614
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: much joy and that it's just really hard to explain.

615
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: And people can watch that too if you Google it,

616
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: or you go to California Innisons Project dot or you'll

617
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: find this remarkable video. It's been viewed millions of times,

618
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: which is so great. Before we get to the the

619
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: you know the best part of the story, which is

620
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: the moment when you were actually declared innocent. Is there

621
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: going back if you could tell us, was there a

622
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: time you could identify or moments you could identify as

623
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: the happiest if there was a happy moment in prison,

624
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: and was there a moment when which was really the

625
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: darkest time that you had?

626
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 5: Well, I say the darkest, darkest time was finding out

627
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 5: my mother had cancer. That's when I felt like, oh man,

628
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 5: how would I get through this? If something happened to

629
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,239
Speaker 5: my mother? How would I get through this? It was

630
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 5: always that fear of getting a phone call or sliding

631
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 5: the letter under the door saying you need to go

632
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 5: see the chaplain. You know, I live with that every

633
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 5: day when she was in the hospital. But luckily she

634
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 5: pulled through and she overcame the cancer. My happiest days

635
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 5: was writing that letter to the California Innison's Project and

636
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 5: they finally accepted me as a client. I knew then

637
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 5: that there was hope, and you know, I heard so

638
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 5: much about the organization, but it was just like I

639
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 5: can never get in that. You know, everybody tries to

640
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 5: get to the Innosis Project and get turned down or

641
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 5: they don't have enough resources to handle their case. So

642
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 5: you know, in my mind, hey, I'm probably not going

643
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 5: to make it either, but I'm sure of going to try.

644
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 5: And I wrote letter after letter after letter, and they

645
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 5: responded back to me and told me that they will

646
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 5: review my case. It took like maybe six seven months

647
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 5: for them to review the case. Man, I was overjoyed there.

648
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 5: It was like, hey, light at the end of the tunnel,

649
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 5: but it.

650
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 2: Was a long tunnel. It was a long legal tunnel.

651
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: Another way this case is extraordinary is we got a

652
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 2: habeas hearing, but as often happens in California and other states,

653
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 2: it was assigned back to the trial judge. So the

654
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 2: trial judge already had his own personal biases about the

655
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 2: case and he'd heard it, and he kind of went

656
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 2: through the motions of that hearing and we lost. So

657
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 2: we presented all the problems with the identification. I cross

658
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 2: examined the original office who did the ID and in fact,

659
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 2: by the time I was done my cross examination and

660
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 2: showed him all the mistakes he'd made, he actually came

661
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 2: over to me and said, I didn't do any of

662
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: this intentionally, and if it's my mistake that led to

663
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: your guy being wrongfully convicted. I really hope you win.

664
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 2: So he realized he wasn't even intentionally doing these photo

665
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 2: rays the way he did it, just wasn't trained. Well,

666
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 2: this was who they said that. This was the investigating

667
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 2: officer who did the identification procedure when I showed him

668
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: saying yeah, when I showed him like, you don't put

669
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: photos of people who don't match the description. And I

670
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 2: took him through all the procedure manuals and how you

671
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 2: put them together. So we go through the whole hearing,

672
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: we show all the problems with the IDs, we bring

673
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: in the alibi witnesses, we put the whole thing back

674
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 2: on and we lose. And then a list of beercle

675
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 2: who's an amazing lawyer in my office, doesn't give up easily.

676
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 2: She appealed that decision, and then we went back and

677
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 2: did it a second time and.

678
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: We lost with in the same judge again yes.

679
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 2: And then we went back up to the Court of

680
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 2: Appeal and there as a matter of law, reverse the decision,

681
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 2: saying that we had brought in sufficient evidence that this

682
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: conviction should be reversed. And then we came up against

683
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 2: another obstacle, which I think is an interesting thing to explore,

684
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 2: in that the District Attorney's office, after this whole journey,

685
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 2: said we're we prosecuting. So I sat in a jail

686
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 2: with guy. I'm sure he'll remember because it was a

687
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 2: year and two days ago, and I said, here's what

688
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 2: we're looking at. Man, You've been exonerated, but they can

689
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 2: always reprosecute. And they say they're reprosecuting, And in fact,

690
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 2: ALYSSA put together a whole stack of pretrial motions just

691
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: to see if they were bluffing, and they weren't. They

692
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 2: were going back to trial. Best case scenario, you get

693
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 2: exonerated at trial, but that means you're going to sit

694
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 2: here in jail until that's over, and I don't know

695
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: how long that's going to be. Worst case scenario, a

696
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,439
Speaker 2: jury convicts you again, because who knows. I don't think

697
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 2: that will happen, but I'm sure you didn't think that

698
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 2: was going to happen the first time round. Right, If

699
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 2: you take this deal now and plee out, they'll walk

700
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 2: you out here today. And what do you do in

701
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: that situation? And how do you advise your client? I

702
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: just got to lay it out to them, that's the

703
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: honest truth. I think I'm going to win this retrial.

704
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: I think I'll get you exonerated, but I can't give

705
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 2: any guarantee of that this will get you out today.

706
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 2: So plea bargains are now defining the entire system. And

707
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,879
Speaker 2: this wasn't true ten fifteen years ago. When we get

708
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: an exoneration, everyone would walk away. And now I'm seeing

709
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 2: two paths happen across the United States. There's some vari

710
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: astute district attorneys who are getting ahead of these stories,

711
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 2: creating conviction review units and getting in on the exonerations.

712
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: And there's other ones that are digging their heels in

713
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 2: and fighting these things to the bitter end because they

714
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: don't want to lose, they don't want to be sued,

715
00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 2: they don't want these stories in the news. And it's

716
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 2: really terrible because in California, even in Bakersfield, even in

717
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,919
Speaker 2: San Bornadino, they didn't used to fight exonerations once we won,

718
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 2: and now they are.

719
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: And it's crazy because you know, you know, the public

720
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 1: really needs to be made aware that this is your

721
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: tax dollars at work. Right You have prosecutors who've been

722
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 1: proven wrong, who've had a higher court tell them, huh uh, nope,

723
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: you screwed this up. This wasn't your guy, And they're

724
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: going to come in and instead of doing their jobs,

725
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 1: they're going to go and spend more weeks and months

726
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: and overtime and this and that and everything else, and

727
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: then they're going all in the hope of reconvicting an

728
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: innocent guy who's then going to go back to prison,

729
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: where we're going to continue to pay for that, right,

730
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: And the cost of incarceration in America are staggering, right,

731
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: I mean, just you know, just in terms of on

732
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: a very basic mundane level, just the money that the

733
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 1: taxpayers pay to keep people innocent people, but everybody.

734
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: They even do it, by the way, Jason, they do

735
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 2: it in cases where there's no time left. Another one

736
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 2: of my clients, Bill Richards, they threatened to reprosecute him

737
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: and had he they successfully won that reprosecution. He was

738
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 2: already on parole. So they were willing to spend county

739
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 2: money going through an entire murder trial again where at

740
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: the end of that result would be no incarceration anyway,

741
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 2: So what could that possibly be about? So we filed

742
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 2: a motion that they were using their office irresponsibly and

743
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 2: it was prosecutorial misconduct, and then they dropped the case

744
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,839
Speaker 2: when that was picked up by the media. You're absolutely right.

745
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,439
Speaker 2: These are our resources. We only have a limited number

746
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 2: of resources for criminal justice, and they're just not being

747
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: allocated correctly because a lot of times people's egos derived

748
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 2: those decisions. You said something, by the way, heartbreaking to

749
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 2: me that day, guy, and lawyers aren't supposed to cry,

750
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 2: but it made me cry. And you said to me

751
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 2: me that you didn't want to let me down by

752
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 2: taking a play. And I've talked to other lawyers about

753
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 2: that in our movement because I think it's an important

754
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 2: message that lawyers remember that sometimes the clients think they're

755
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 2: letting us down. And I said to you, you know,

756
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: this is your life, man. You got to do what's

757
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: best for your life, and I'm glad you did that.

758
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 5: You know, they fought so hard since they took my case.

759
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 5: I mean it was nitty gritty, they got down and dirty.

760
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 5: They really got out there and got the evidence. I

761
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 5: mean they fought tooth and nail. We had, Like I said,

762
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 5: to evident, you're a hearing another hearing in the Pellic court.

763
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 5: It was like never giving up. So I told Justin

764
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 5: that because you know, I just watched the dedication in

765
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 5: him to fight him, and it was just like, man,

766
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 5: me copping out. It was like letting them down after

767
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 5: all they did for me, you know. And that's why

768
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 5: I told you, Man, I just I just I just

769
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 5: feel bad, you know, like basically bailing out on him.

770
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 5: And that's why I told him that.

771
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 1: So you ended up making the decision that I think

772
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: almost anyone would make face with that impossible choice, and

773
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: I had and you had to plead down. You plead

774
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: it down or do you have to plead guilty to

775
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: the crime in.

776
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 2: The first lead no contest to the charges, right.

777
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: So it's like an Alfred Plate. Yeah, so you pleaded

778
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: no contest. I had to be another bit of pill

779
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: to swallow. And now you have to live the rest

780
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: of your life as a convicted felon, as if they

781
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: didn't do enough.

782
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 2: And we were trying to and we at the same

783
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 2: time we're fighting for clemency for guy. This guy is

784
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: part of what we call the California twelve, which are

785
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 2: twelve clients we identified now it's five six years ago

786
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,720
Speaker 2: as being great cases for clemency from Governor Jerry Brown,

787
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 2: and the governor has the power to at any time

788
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 2: give any one and clemency he wants to give in

789
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 2: the state prison system. Unfortunately, most governors use it in

790
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: you know, to give it to people or connected to power,

791
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 2: or someone who happens to work in the governor's mansion

792
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 2: in the garden. It's very random. And so we identified

793
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 2: these twelve cases and we actually walked clemency petitions from

794
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: my office in San Diego. I walked all the way

795
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 2: to Sacramento with those clemency petitions, seven hundred and twelve miles.

796
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 2: Guy's family walked a good portion of that with us.

797
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: And how long did that take?

798
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 2: It took fifty days. It was walking the entire way

799
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 2: up the coasts, all in the highways.

800
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: That's as far as Gump shit right there.

801
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 2: It was. I had far If you go on YouTube

802
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 2: and say justin Brooks mile four fifty Innocence March, you

803
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 2: can see how I looked at mile four fifty. I

804
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 2: looked like far As Gump. And we had hundreds of

805
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 2: people with us by the time we got to Sacramento

806
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: and we presented those twelve clemency petitions to the governor.

807
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 2: He has still not acted on any of them. Is

808
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,240
Speaker 2: now five years later, and in that time we've released

809
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: five of those twelve. There's still seven left in prison.

810
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: The governor now has one hundred and I think eighty

811
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 2: some days left in office, who's counting, And during that

812
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 2: time he could give clemency to these final seven. And

813
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 2: so I've been every day on social media asking people

814
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 2: to call the governor, write the governor, ask him to

815
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: grant clemency to the California twelve. And if anyone can

816
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 2: follow me on Twitter at Justin O Brooks every single

817
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: day that can retweet to the governor and he gets

818
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 2: these messages, but he hasn't done anything about it yet.

819
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 2: And in Guy's case, we're sitting there with a plea offer,

820
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 2: the possibility of clemency, and it's this very high stakes

821
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: poker that you're playing, and we find to make the

822
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 2: decision to play in the card of him taking this

823
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 2: deal so he can move on with his life, which

824
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 2: is of course Guy's decision.

825
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: There's a rumor going on around that you're going to

826
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: do another walk.

827
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna do the final hundred miles, which is

828
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 2: actually some of the most brutal part of it because

829
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 2: I'm going to walk from San Francisco to Sacramento and

830
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 2: in September a part of it. You're definitely coming and

831
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 2: walking my brother.

832
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, sounds like I better get my sneakers out too.

833
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: I love that it'll be.

834
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: The last hundred on the He'll have one hundred days

835
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: left in October, and so on that day we're going

836
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,439
Speaker 2: to walk the last hundred miles and it'll take about

837
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 2: five days, doing about twenty miles a day, and we'll

838
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: go to Sacramento and try to get his attention again

839
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 2: to these final seven cases. It's just heartbreaking. They are

840
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 2: compelling cases, strong evidence of innocence, every one of them.

841
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 2: And you can see them on our website at California

842
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 2: Inniston's Project dot org.

843
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: And can people sign up to do the walk there too?

844
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, then get information about the walk and we'll tell

845
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 2: them what the rallies are and if they follow me

846
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 2: on Twitter, I'll be tweeting about it between now and then.

847
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: And that's justin Obrooks on Twitter. Why are the last

848
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: one hundred miles the most brutal.

849
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: Because it's so hot and you're just crossing California. I

850
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 2: mean a lot of people said to me, why didn't

851
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: Why didn't you guys walk up the five. It's like,

852
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 2: if you walk up the five, you be dead. It

853
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 2: goes through the desert the whole way. So we did

854
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 2: the coastal walk and Big Star is very beautiful. It's

855
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 2: not as fun when you're walking in and going up

856
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 2: and down those hills, but at least it's not brutally hot.

857
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 2: But when you cut inland and we hit there at

858
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 2: around June, it was insanely hot. That last hundred miles

859
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 2: when you're walking to Sacramento.

860
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 1: That's a lot of walk And that's an incredible, incredible story,

861
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you told it. So yeah, I think, Look,

862
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 1: I'm very optimistic that this governor will do the right thing.

863
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 1: He's certainly been actively pursuing cases for clemency. He's granted

864
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: I think more clemencies for lifers than any previous governor or.

865
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 2: Probably he's granted a lot of clemencies, but most of

866
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 2: them have been out of custody people, right, people with

867
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 2: old drug charges. But yeah, this governor's been on the

868
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 2: right side of a lot of issues, a lot of

869
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 2: progressive issues, which is why I was willing to walk

870
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: seven hundred and twelve miles because I thought, this guy'll do.

871
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 1: This, and I think it's important for people to realize

872
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: that that stigma is gone. You know, President Obama granted

873
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: seventeen hundred and sixty something clemencies in the last days

874
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: in office, and there wasn't a peep from anybody, like

875
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 1: and by the way, I was advocating for much many

876
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: more than that, but nobody said a word. Right, there

877
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: was a one article written, hey, wait, what's going on here?

878
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: I mean, like, it's not a thing anymore. So you know,

879
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 1: it's like it's just not a thing.

880
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,919
Speaker 2: Right, So pendulum always swings right.

881
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: So guy, before we get to the closing of the show,

882
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: I did want to ask you about that moment when

883
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 1: the High Court the Court of Appeals reverse your conviction,

884
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: because it has to be just the opposite of the

885
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: devastation that you felt when you were wrongfully convicted in

886
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: the first place. Can you describe that moment?

887
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 5: I was excited when I got the word that the

888
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 5: Pellic court had reversed my conviction.

889
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: How'd you find out?

890
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 5: I found Actually I found out through my daughter. She

891
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 5: told me. She's like, hey, Dad, Hey dad. I happened

892
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 5: to call my daughter and she was like, hey, Dad,

893
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 5: did you hear what happened? I was like what. She

894
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 5: was like, you know, you coming home? I was like, huh,

895
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 5: what are you talking about? And she said that we

896
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 5: just got word that the pelicourt reversed your conviction and

897
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 5: they letting you come home. I was like what. I

898
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 5: guess she had it all wrong. She heard reverse and

899
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 5: she thought it just immediately I come home that day,

900
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 5: so I was excited. I instantly called Justin and them

901
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 5: and they confirmed what she had told me that the

902
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 5: pellicourt had reversed my conviction. But there was still a

903
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 5: process that we needed to go through to see if

904
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 5: the district attorney was going to retry me or just

905
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 5: decide to let the case go. We got word that

906
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 5: the Supreme Court wanted to look at the case, and

907
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 5: so here the agony again. We're now waiting on a

908
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:22,800
Speaker 5: Supreme Court to review the appellic Court's decision. But anyway,

909
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 5: they elected to leave the case as it was. But

910
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 5: I believe they What was that Justin?

911
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, we passed a new evidence law in California. California

912
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: had actually the toughest new evidence law in the country.

913
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 2: And I know this because I wrote a lat of

914
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 2: your article on topic and read every one of them.

915
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 2: And in California, you had to have new evidence that

916
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 2: completely undermined every element of the prosecution's case.

917
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: Wow.

918
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 2: And so unless you have overwhelming evidence of innocence really

919
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,760
Speaker 2: anything short of DNA, and you're going to have trouble

920
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 2: winning a case in California. And we got a new

921
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 2: law passed in California that mimics the rest of the

922
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 2: states that just basically says, if you have evidence that

923
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 2: you wouldn't have been convicted at trial, had the jury

924
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 2: heard it, they wouldn't have convicted you, that's sufficient. And

925
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 2: because we had that new evidence law in California, we

926
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 2: well surpassed that standard in Guy Miles case.

927
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: So, Guy, you know, it's after talking to you and

928
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: after seeing the video of you on the way home,

929
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: I feel like I know you already, which is great.

930
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to getting to know you in person.

931
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:35,399
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll be doing some walking together. So but we

932
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: have we've come to the point in the show which

933
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: is my favorite part and I think probably the audience's

934
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: favorite part, which is the part when I stopped talking.

935
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 1: And the tradition here is at the end of each episode,

936
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: I turned it over to our distinguished guests and let

937
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 1: you have the last word, and you can literally say

938
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: whatever you want about whatever you want. I think everybody

939
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 1: is me most of all. It's really interested to hear

940
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:07,439
Speaker 1: what you have to say. But we're going to save

941
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,399
Speaker 1: the best for last, and we're going to let Justin

942
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 1: go first. So Justin, I'm going to turn it over

943
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 1: to you.

944
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 2: You know, this is our collective criminal justice system, right

945
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 2: so I don't think we can just sit back and

946
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 2: do nothing about all the failings of it, because it's

947
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 2: our failings. And that's why I love this show. I

948
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 2: love the work that you do. I love our community

949
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 2: because we're trying constantly to make the system better. We

950
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 2: know we can't perfect it, we know we'll never hit

951
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 2: one hundred percent, but there's a lot of changes that

952
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 2: can be made so that innocent people don't go to

953
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 2: prison and so the innocent people get out of prison.

954
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 2: And Guy Miles is another example of things that can

955
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 2: be done to make the system better. Improve identification procedures.

956
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 2: Let's stop with the sentences that are so high that

957
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 2: people are forced into plead guilty to things they didn't commit.

958
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 2: There's a lot of reforms that we can make, and

959
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 2: so I think we learned something about every one of

960
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 2: these cases, and we learned something that we need to do.

961
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 2: So i'd ask your audience to, you know, take action

962
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 2: and get involved. You know, go to our website Californiasanceproject

963
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 2: dot org see things that you can do, and just

964
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 2: get involved. Do jury duty, get involved in your community,

965
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 2: be part of the solution, or you're really part of

966
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 2: the problem.

967
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: Guy. Hey, we'll turn it over to you now for

968
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: last words.

969
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 5: First of all, I just want to thank the California

970
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 5: Nison's Project for even accepting my case and have to

971
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 5: accepting my case, going the distance to find what was

972
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 5: needed to show the judge, the justice system, and everybody

973
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 5: else around that there are actual innocent people in jail.

974
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 5: My daughter Taja, the hardest part being away from her

975
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 5: was her first pregnancy, having my grandson. I remember her

976
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 5: telling me. I know it was hard for her to

977
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 5: tell me that she was pregnant at a young age,

978
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 5: and you know, I wasn't there to kind of help

979
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 5: her through that time, so that was kind of hard

980
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 5: for me. But I want her to know that I

981
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 5: love her and I don't judge her, and you know

982
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 5: she's always gonna be my little baby guy, Charles, you

983
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 5: know the same to them. You know, those are my boys,

984
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 5: and I know it was hard for them while I

985
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 5: was away, but I also loved them, and you know

986
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 5: I'm home now we can put all that behind us

987
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 5: and just move forward and just thank God that we're

988
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 5: able to, you know, reunite and just you know, be

989
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:45,839
Speaker 5: a family and continue doing what we're doing, and that's

990
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 5: having fun, talking and enjoying each other's company. And a

991
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 5: special thanks to my mother and father definitely for not wavering,

992
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 5: being there for me every step of the way, never

993
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 5: turning their back on me. Like I said, when I

994
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 5: got out, they knew I was innocent coming in. They

995
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,439
Speaker 5: knew I was innocent coming out. They continue to fight

996
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 5: for me, even when it looks like things were bad

997
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 5: and I wasn't coming home. They never gave up, and

998
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,399
Speaker 5: they continue their fight with Justin Ulyssa and the rest

999
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 5: of the gang at the California Innocence Project. To everybody

1000
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 5: else out there who's going through the similar or the

1001
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:25,760
Speaker 5: same thing that I'm going through, continue to fight, continue

1002
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 5: to keep hope alized, just stay strong and believe Not

1003
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 5: every da is bad, not every judge is bad, not

1004
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 5: every lawyer is bad. But we just have to pray

1005
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 5: and ask God to just continue giving us strength that

1006
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 5: we do find the good ones. And that's all I

1007
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 5: want to say. Thank you.

1008
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: Well, it's a pleasure and an honor to have you here.

1009
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: And like I said, I'm looking forward to getting together

1010
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,399
Speaker 1: with you and doing some walking and I will see

1011
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: you in California and hopefully someday we'll get you to

1012
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: New York and we'll put the red carpet off for

1013
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 1: you again. Thanks for being part of it.

1014
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 5: It's a pleasure.

1015
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 2: Give my love to your parents.

1016
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: Guy, I will, I will, all right, see you later.

1017
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

1018
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud

1019
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

1020
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

1021
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org

1022
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like

1023
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1024
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

1025
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1026
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast.

1027
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

1028
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with s NO Company Number

1029
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 1: one