Speaker 1: Welcome to this bonus drop episode of Backwoods University. I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Lake Pickle, and on today's episode, we're going
Speaker 1: to take a sharp topic turn and discuss a place
Speaker 1: and a subject that we have yet to cover on
Speaker 1: this show, the anti poaching in the continent of Africa. Now,
Speaker 1: I will give you a little bit of foreshadowing. We'll
Speaker 1: be taking a deeper dive into Africa and its wildlife
Speaker 1: and its wild places further down the line, because I
Speaker 1: am so fascinated by that continent and all the diverse
Speaker 1: wildlife that it has in it. And we're just gonna
Speaker 1: treat this bonus episode as kind of our first fora
Speaker 1: if you will, into that ever wild place. Today, we're
Speaker 1: going to hear from a man named Joshua Laws who
Speaker 1: worked directly in anti poaching for several years, and he
Speaker 1: has some wild and interesting stories. I think you're going
Speaker 1: to enjoy it. So let's get into it. Let's start,
Speaker 1: Let's let's go back, let's go Let's go back to
Speaker 1: the beginning because I got jumped ahead there. So, so
Speaker 1: you you're from San Diego.
Speaker 2: Originally, yep, went and raised in San Diego, and.
Speaker 3: And you spent some time in the military. Is that correct?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I did the military, uh after before sorry,
Speaker 2: I did anti poaching, then the military then went back
Speaker 2: to anti poaching.
Speaker 3: So anti poaching came first. Okay, I had it.
Speaker 1: I had it in my head that you you did
Speaker 1: military first, all right, So take me there, Like, how
Speaker 1: in the like, how in the world do you end
Speaker 1: up like even pursuing that idea of getting into working
Speaker 1: in anti poaching.
Speaker 2: So I'd always had a passion for wildlife as a kid,
Speaker 2: you know, growing up my hero was Steve Herwin, the
Speaker 2: crocodile hunter and then Less Strout from Survivor Man. So
Speaker 2: I was like, how do I how do I combine this?
Speaker 2: And I always had the calling to join the military,
Speaker 2: but I wanted to do something first because I know,
Speaker 2: once you saw on that dotted line, they own you.
Speaker 2: So I was researching and then I found a company
Speaker 2: in South Africa, an anti poaching company that takes foreigners
Speaker 2: to come do their course and patrol. You're a volunteer,
Speaker 2: but you do everything that the rangers do and you
Speaker 2: become a ranger. So I was like, I one hundred
Speaker 2: percent want to do this. I was going to give
Speaker 2: it six months to a year before joining the army.
Speaker 2: So I got a job at my local horse ranch,
Speaker 2: quit all sports, worked, save up the money for plane
Speaker 2: ticket the course, and two months out of high school
Speaker 2: I found myself in South Africa. I was the only
Speaker 2: American kidding, yeah, only American on the course, and I
Speaker 2: absolutely loved it. It was like just baptism by fire
Speaker 2: in the bush, learning how to cook on fire track bushcraft.
Speaker 2: I absolutely loved every second of it. It was an amazing time.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, and so so you're this is a
Speaker 1: is it like a kind of deal where you you
Speaker 1: obviously you said your time was volunteered to go over there,
Speaker 1: but by the end you become a ranger. Is that
Speaker 1: like you get qualified or or something along those lines.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's a six week course and then from
Speaker 2: there you now know the basics, and then as you
Speaker 2: patrol you start to learn more. So I was always
Speaker 2: a volunteer until I started in Zambia and then I
Speaker 2: actually started working full time.
Speaker 3: Gotcha, gotcha? Why uh? Why Africa? Like why did you
Speaker 3: originally do?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: Why did you zone in on Africa?
Speaker 2: I've just I've always had a calling for wildlife and
Speaker 2: it just the cards just worked out. You know, I
Speaker 2: thought about maybe I didn't want to backpack Europe. I
Speaker 2: was thinking maybe going to Asia and doing something there
Speaker 2: because I've always loved Nepoll. And then South Africa came
Speaker 2: on my radar and I saw an opportunity and I
Speaker 2: just took it andely.
Speaker 1: Yeah all right, so you you show up at this
Speaker 1: place and you're the only American there, as you said,
Speaker 1: and baptized by fire, like what what like walk me through?
Speaker 1: Like walk me through like day one out out in
Speaker 1: the African bush when you're like, oh my gosh, I
Speaker 1: don't really know anything, but I'm out here, Like what
Speaker 1: do you remember what Day one was?
Speaker 2: Like? Yeah, so day one it was foreigner wise, it
Speaker 2: was me a Canadian, two guys from the Netherlands, and
Speaker 2: the rest of were South African. So day one, they
Speaker 2: shave your head, take everything off of you, give you
Speaker 2: a uniform, boots, you know, old military rucksack, old chest webbing,
Speaker 2: and by the time all the admin's done, it's like
Speaker 2: four o'clock in the afternoon. So we do a six
Speaker 2: k march to camp. Then they quickly put us in
Speaker 2: camp for the night. First day is kind of just
Speaker 2: like not ADMIN but learning kind of where camp is,
Speaker 2: how we're going to do things for the six weeks.
Speaker 2: And then like day three was when we were first
Speaker 2: in the bush and we were doing tracking. They were
Speaker 2: teaching us how to track, so one instructor would go
Speaker 2: out with two of the two of us to lay
Speaker 2: tracks very easy so we could learn how to track,
Speaker 2: and then we'd eventually track them with the instructor and
Speaker 2: they'd switch. So I went I tracked the second time,
Speaker 2: and then it was my turnout to late tracks. So
Speaker 2: we're walking walking, and then we get to a point
Speaker 2: where we were sitting and used the tree in some
Speaker 2: shade and to simulate a rifle. They gave us white
Speaker 2: PBC pipe filled with concrete soud. The guys are having
Speaker 2: a smoke break. One of our instructors, he's sitting there
Speaker 2: having a cigarette and we hear a twig snap and
Speaker 2: I turn around and I think it's some of the
Speaker 2: guys because I see white, and it wasn't. It was
Speaker 2: a bull elephant with tusks, and I just heard that
Speaker 2: low rumble. Corporal Sepo was his name, the instructor. He's
Speaker 2: still got the cigarette in his mouth and he's just
Speaker 2: like weapons not up. But it's just there. He's like, ah,
Speaker 2: we need to go. So we just turned around and
Speaker 2: went and I was like that that was cool. So
Speaker 2: that was my first time elephant in the wild and
Speaker 2: I was like that's awesome. Yeah. And then from there
Speaker 2: we did you know, three day survival course, you know
Speaker 2: the guys who are rangers from South Africa. You know,
Speaker 2: we did the first aid and then we did they
Speaker 2: taught weapons competency for them as volunteers. Obviously we're not
Speaker 2: allowed to carry firearms, so we still did the training,
Speaker 2: but you know, we're not going to carry a weapon.
Speaker 2: And then it culminated to they took us out to
Speaker 2: Big Five out into a reserve, which Big five is buffalo, rhino, elephant, leopard, lion,
Speaker 2: so a reserve with everything in it, and we had
Speaker 2: to make a boma and then for a few days
Speaker 2: we were tracking there and then we had to go
Speaker 2: back to camp, but in a boma setting, so we'd
Speaker 2: have to dig trenches and cook on coals, dig trenches
Speaker 2: to use the toilets and all of that. Then the
Speaker 2: culmination of the last final exercise was a follow up
Speaker 2: chase how you would do it in this particular area
Speaker 2: in South Africa where you had two rangers who would
Speaker 2: go and leave tracks and then we had to find
Speaker 2: the tracks and then begin a follow up, which we
Speaker 2: had vehicles for this. So when you're tracking, you know
Speaker 2: you then we do what's called leapfrogging. So if you're
Speaker 2: on the tracks, you get a general direction where the
Speaker 2: track going, you know, by degrees, so you'd radio win
Speaker 2: generally they're going in this direction. So if Yokul would
Speaker 2: then go all the way around kind of look on
Speaker 2: the roads what we call sport traps, kind of where
Speaker 2: the tracks are easy to find, soft sand and if
Speaker 2: they find it, well they've just cut it and they've
Speaker 2: narrowed the gap and then we would jump on. So
Speaker 2: we did this for a few days. Now. We were
Speaker 2: all excited because it was the last one of the
Speaker 2: last things to do. But we've been eating hardly anything,
Speaker 2: so we were like, let's just get this done because
Speaker 2: as soon as we get it done, sooner we go
Speaker 2: back to camp and we can eat. So that was
Speaker 2: our big thing. During course, we didn't eat a lot,
Speaker 2: so they just taught us how to live in the bush.
Speaker 2: And then once you graduate. When I was working at
Speaker 2: that particular area, will volunteering in that particular area. It
Speaker 2: was fourteen sixteen days on four days off, which was amazing.
Speaker 2: It was sixteen days in the bush. You know, you
Speaker 2: didn't really shower, you ate what you carried with, and
Speaker 2: it was an amazing time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: At one distinction, man, So like I'm when you originally
Speaker 1: just because like the only experience I've had with Africa
Speaker 1: has been on safari, And so originally when you were
Speaker 1: saying tracking, my mind goes like trackers, tracking game. You're
Speaker 1: talking about like tracking people because you're tracking poachers, correct, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sometimes track game like if you find rhino, you're tracking
Speaker 2: the rhino right right?
Speaker 1: How long I mean, like the whole like tracking people,
Speaker 1: Like if you're tracking a poacher, Like how long did
Speaker 1: that take to try to feel to kind of start
Speaker 1: feeling like you had a decent grasp on it.
Speaker 2: Just the more practice you had, and then when you
Speaker 2: were if you were if you got lucky and your
Speaker 2: team leader was a very good tracker, you would then
Speaker 2: learn from him. So he might say, like, right, track
Speaker 2: us back to camp from the tracks we came in on.
Speaker 2: And if you weren't paying attention, you're new to the area,
Speaker 2: you don't familiarize yourself or if like, for example, you're
Speaker 2: going to meet up with a team, but you kind
Speaker 2: of cut their tracks. He'll say, right, don't walk to way.
Speaker 2: You know, track these guys so you kind of know
Speaker 2: where they're going and you can just kind of teach yourself.
Speaker 2: But it just takes practice. I mean, sure, I'll never
Speaker 2: be as good as the guys who grew up doing it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean, and like I said, we're talking
Speaker 1: different things. But like I remember the first time I
Speaker 1: watched like an African tracker track, you know, track animals,
Speaker 1: and I was blown away at how good they are
Speaker 1: at doing that.
Speaker 3: Just blew my mind.
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's insane how good they are. They
Speaker 2: see like something that means nothing to us, they can
Speaker 2: tell exactly what that means. Oh, he's the whatever animal
Speaker 2: it is, shifted its weight this side or is it's
Speaker 2: It's insane, it's an art form.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The first time I was over there, the guy was saying,
Speaker 1: like I mean, he was having he was speaking in African,
Speaker 1: so I couldn't tell huntil the pH was relaying to
Speaker 1: me what he said, but he said that like the
Speaker 1: it was like a h, I.
Speaker 3: Think there's a wirebuck maybe but he.
Speaker 1: Said that one of them in the herd had a limp.
Speaker 1: And I was like what, and he said, by looking
Speaker 1: at the somehowut of the track, he's that he could tell.
Speaker 1: And sure enough, when we got up to him, like
Speaker 1: there was one in that group of like four or
Speaker 1: five that was limpit. I have no idea how he
Speaker 1: distinguished that or if either that or he was like
Speaker 1: pulling the wool over my eyes and he had seen
Speaker 1: him already. But man, those guys are pretty incredible. But anyway, man,
Speaker 1: so you go and you do this instructional course, and
Speaker 1: you're over there for six months, and then you come
Speaker 1: back home and go and do the military.
Speaker 2: No. So I came back home and then I really
Speaker 2: wanted to go back, and that's why the opportunity with
Speaker 2: that one nonprofit they offered, do you want to go
Speaker 2: and help? I said absolutely, I want to get back
Speaker 2: different province, and that's when I met Will. And then
Speaker 2: after that time there, I didn't go home right away.
Speaker 2: I then got an opportunity to then go back to
Speaker 2: the same area but with a different reserve, and so
Speaker 2: I then started working there on and off from twenty
Speaker 2: seventeen till twenty nineteen so that would that was when
Speaker 2: I really got to hone kind of my bushcroft and
Speaker 2: my anti poaching craft and how it works as just
Speaker 2: the boots on the ground ranger, because it was you know,
Speaker 2: multiple weeks in the bush, you go out for a bit,
Speaker 2: come back in, and we wouldn't just patrol in that reserve.
Speaker 2: We'd go to other hot zones as well in patrol.
Speaker 1: M So what like on one of an average day
Speaker 1: of like patrol, you're out there like you're going and
Speaker 1: you say you go into the bush for a bit.
Speaker 3: Like like what are you doing? Are you are you
Speaker 3: going there?
Speaker 1: Like is it a were there cases where there were
Speaker 1: poachers out there and you're having to catch them or
Speaker 1: is it more of like a preventive thing like what's
Speaker 1: in what's a day look like?
Speaker 2: So if you're just there's multiple ways to do it.
Speaker 2: So let's say you've been assigned to an area and
Speaker 2: you're in the bush. You built your boma or your
Speaker 2: boma's already set up with just a thorn thicket where
Speaker 2: you're sleeping at night. You know, from there, you might
Speaker 2: get told to go check an area for a few
Speaker 2: hours at first light, you go check the area. Then
Speaker 2: you might go back out in the afternoon last light.
Speaker 2: If it's moon phase and it's starting to get you know,
Speaker 2: full moons coming, you'll start to shift more towards nighttime.
Speaker 2: If for example, you're at the main HQ, you might
Speaker 2: go out at a completely different time, but you're going
Speaker 2: you know, from HQ. They might drop you off and
Speaker 2: have you walk back, or they might have you check
Speaker 2: a fence on the roads walking or with the vehicle.
Speaker 2: It totally depends on that threat assessment is in that area.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what is it?
Speaker 1: So like people, what's the more common when like people
Speaker 1: just like like meat poaching or depending if there's rhinos around,
Speaker 1: Like what would you run into?
Speaker 2: Yeah, if there's you know, if there's meat poaching, it's
Speaker 2: typically they're setting snares. They'll set their snare line and
Speaker 2: come back for it. There. I was in in South Africa.
Speaker 2: I didn't deal with the dog's flushing game. That was
Speaker 2: more Zambia and then the rhino poaching side. Almost all
Speaker 2: of the rhino poaching incidents I dealt with were reactive
Speaker 2: and they got intel from the inside and they know
Speaker 2: exactly where the rhino are. They go in, shoot it,
Speaker 2: chop the horn and they're out. So on big massive reserves, yes,
Speaker 2: it's difficult to find them, but if they get the
Speaker 2: shot off, you have time to catch them because they
Speaker 2: still have to get out the reserve. If it's a
Speaker 2: smaller reserve, it's quick to get in get out because
Speaker 2: when they're looking for the rhino, you know they're looking
Speaker 2: and they're trying to find the tracks. Sometimes they'll find
Speaker 2: the tracks. They'll then spend the whole day with the rhino,
Speaker 2: wait till lost light, shoot it, and by the time
Speaker 2: they've shot it, they know we're coming because we've heard it,
Speaker 2: and then they'll try to get out as fast as
Speaker 2: they can. But when they have the horn, they're not
Speaker 2: playing around. They come straight out now, so it's quick.
Speaker 2: But when they've shot, it's reactive. You know, if they
Speaker 2: don't know you're on them and they're just looking, they're
Speaker 2: kind of walking, they'll still anti track, but when they
Speaker 2: know you're on them, it's very difficult to track.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: Well, first thing before I go back, and I got
Speaker 1: some question about that, did you how did you ever
Speaker 1: have instances where that happen, Like you're out there working,
Speaker 1: then you hear a shot and then you got to move.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you got to go, and it's quick more
Speaker 2: often than not, though for me sometimes it was like
Speaker 2: the neighboring farm or the neighboring reserve. Was it was
Speaker 2: they were shooting or hunting or doing doing something or culling.
Speaker 2: You still react, you know, you do. The first thing
Speaker 2: I always did is I drew a line in the
Speaker 2: sand with my foot, and I mainly put my compass down,
Speaker 2: and then you get, you know kind of I would
Speaker 2: write down on a piece of paper, was it high caliber,
Speaker 2: low caliber? What was the estimated distance, what's my location,
Speaker 2: what's the degrees on the compass it is? And then
Speaker 2: I go. So then at HQ, for example, they didn't
Speaker 2: go right, he's here, it's roughly here. We can send
Speaker 2: a team.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: How many instances like that where it was a rhino
Speaker 1: and it was isn't like somebody else doing some other activity.
Speaker 3: Do you ever have like somebody shoot a rhino?
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I've had it once. It was I wasn't.
Speaker 2: I was in the area, but I was way further
Speaker 2: away north and they shot it. They shot it in
Speaker 2: the south. I didn't know about it. I didn't hear
Speaker 2: it until like we had told on the radio. The
Speaker 2: next day, Hey, we've got two carcasses. We need to
Speaker 2: go do the crime scene. Meet us there and they
Speaker 2: told us where it was, so we went there and
Speaker 2: we had to do You have to cut it open,
Speaker 2: find the bullet. Hopefully there's a thumb print or you
Speaker 2: can trace that bullet to a different rhino poaching crime
Speaker 2: as well. At that point, it's reactive. Basically, by the
Speaker 2: time the SHOT's gone off, you got a rhino down,
Speaker 2: you've lost, and at that point you're just trying to
Speaker 2: catch the guys to some south situation. Yeah, that's the
Speaker 2: best way to stop them was always intel and being reactive,
Speaker 2: knowing where they come in and sitting on those high points,
Speaker 2: the big reserves and you know, using the buinos to
Speaker 2: find them come in an apprand.
Speaker 1: As far as I like being reactive, like you said,
Speaker 1: or like, how how is that how prolific of a problem?
Speaker 1: I mean, I've heard you, like I know enough to
Speaker 1: know that, like rhino poaching in South Africa is a problem,
Speaker 1: but like for your situation specifically, we're y'all having to
Speaker 1: catch people, Like how often were you catching folks that
Speaker 1: you knew were in there trying to poach?
Speaker 2: So it totally depending on the situation. Like twenty sixteen
Speaker 2: and twenty seventeen there I was in got hit extremely hard,
Speaker 2: and those reserves I was voluntary in in the beginning,
Speaker 2: and then the reserve I finally stayed at in South Africa,
Speaker 2: we had a very good anti poaching unit and it
Speaker 2: was a smaller reserve. We knew where all of our
Speaker 2: rhino were, so we concentrated our rangers there, so we
Speaker 2: only lost one when I was there. Otherwise guys would
Speaker 2: go to other reserves, so they knew like, hey, these
Speaker 2: guys are here, they're switched on. Let's go find easier pickings.
Speaker 1: M Yeah, what are these I mean, like how sophisticated
Speaker 1: are these poachers? Like I heard you talk about like
Speaker 1: sometimes they get inside information and stuff like that, or
Speaker 1: like these are these pretty sophisticated teams of people going
Speaker 1: and doing this?
Speaker 3: Or is it or not so much?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the syndicates are very you know, you
Speaker 2: might have instances where if they know someone works on
Speaker 2: a reserve, whether you're a general, a worker, a mechanic,
Speaker 2: a guide, or a ranger, you know, they might go
Speaker 2: to the sabine at night that you drink out on
Speaker 2: your off in the local village and just say, hey,
Speaker 2: I'll give you three times your salary just to tell
Speaker 2: me where the rhino are or you know, what's the
Speaker 2: APU doing just for information because it's so lucrative. I
Speaker 2: mean I checked rhino horn in the black market. Pernounce
Speaker 2: is worth more than gold. Yeah, so you know, and
Speaker 2: you get in those big, massive areas like you know,
Speaker 2: Kruger National Park and the reserves that border Krueger. Those
Speaker 2: are huge areas. So sometimes if an area has been
Speaker 2: poached out, the you know, the scouts and the rangers,
Speaker 2: they're not gonna waste their time there because the rhino
Speaker 2: aren't there if they've got a serious poaching problem. So
Speaker 2: I've seen it where the guys just use that to
Speaker 2: walk through freely. And also sometimes that's where I had
Speaker 2: my first like visual this is these are rhino poachers,
Speaker 2: and then I spent the whole day chasing them.
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, that's gotta be man. I mean, I'm assuming
Speaker 1: these guys are armed. I mean obviously if they're shooting rhinos,
Speaker 1: you know, So I mean, like that's gotta that. I mean,
Speaker 1: it feels like it could get pretty sketchy at some points.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they don't really care about us. Once they
Speaker 2: have the horn, they're they're good to go. They just
Speaker 2: want to get out of there as fast as possible.
Speaker 2: So my first ever visual like these are rhino poachers, okay,
Speaker 2: it's on, was in this one area. We had just
Speaker 2: spent eight days there. We're supposed to be there for ten,
Speaker 2: but my team leader had to go on off. So
Speaker 2: we did the rotation two days early. So I was
Speaker 2: the scout, he was the team leader, and we'd get
Speaker 2: water from the river. We would you know, use water,
Speaker 2: sand to rub, to clean ourselves eating. We had the
Speaker 2: anti track because these guys bring the area as well.
Speaker 2: We spent eight days on the high point. Nothing was quiet,
Speaker 2: you know, so okay, all right, So the night before
Speaker 2: they're like, hey, we're gonna come pick you up tomorrow morning.
Speaker 2: Go to the pickup point, which was this big tree,
Speaker 2: and we'll see you there in the office the nooon. Okay. Cool.
Speaker 2: So it was December fourteenth, fifteenth, twenty seventeen somewhere there.
Speaker 2: So I'm walking if it's five o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 2: but it's already like it's already like in the nineties, right,
Speaker 2: and I can see the tree. It's close, and I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: all I'm thinking about is hot chow, a hot shower bed.
Speaker 2: And then I just hear Impaula do a warning coal
Speaker 2: and then I just instinctively see them and they're running
Speaker 2: this way. So I looked to where they're running from,
Speaker 2: and on the ridge was two guys, one with a
Speaker 2: backpack and one head sound slung. Couldn't see the rifle,
Speaker 2: but I saw the sling, and I remember as clear
Speaker 2: as day, one had converse on and the other had
Speaker 2: those dad white new balanced shoes, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: so I like, look at my team. Later, I'm like
Speaker 2: and we're both like okay. We get on the radio
Speaker 2: and they're like, guys were coming to pick you up.
Speaker 2: Like no, no, no, no, no, we've got poachers. They're like, okay, cool,
Speaker 2: apprehend or follow up. We're coming with the helicopter and
Speaker 2: the fixed wing. Okay cool. Now, in our haste, we
Speaker 2: just unclipped our bags and went with just what we
Speaker 2: could carry. We didn't bring water, nothing. We were too quick.
Speaker 2: So these guys have no idea we're tracking them. So
Speaker 2: they're just you know, walking how they normally walk. So
Speaker 2: we're we're following very easily, and then we come up
Speaker 2: over a ridge and as we start to come down
Speaker 2: the ridge to kind of a valley, here comes a
Speaker 2: helicopter and then the fixed wing. Now the fixed wing
Speaker 2: is just going to do patterns to find them, and
Speaker 2: the helicopter has another team. So we get on the
Speaker 2: radio and a helicopter like the nose is twelve o'clock,
Speaker 2: the tail six either side is three and nine. Get
Speaker 2: on the radio, call him in and under our hats
Speaker 2: we've stitched in hunter orange to flip over so they
Speaker 2: can see us from above, which only works if they're
Speaker 2: like right above you. So we were given this white
Speaker 2: cloth about this big, and that was four you're supposed
Speaker 2: to wrap it around so other units. If you're on
Speaker 2: a follow up and it's like a multi unit work,
Speaker 2: they know you're not a poacher, so it we didn't
Speaker 2: use it for that. It's great, like this is a
Speaker 2: wind gage. So the helicopter comes in. We give them
Speaker 2: a general direction of where the spores going, so they
Speaker 2: go and leap frog, but with a helicopter land and
Speaker 2: now they're doing grids for these guys know what's going on.
Speaker 2: So they're now hunkered down anti tracking and slowly trying
Speaker 2: to come out because they know we're onto him. We've
Speaker 2: got other units from the east and the west, but
Speaker 2: we're the ones that are still on the tracks. That
Speaker 2: it gets to about ten o'clock and it's hot. I've
Speaker 2: had no water to drink for five hours. We're both finished,
Speaker 2: like I stopped sweating long ago, had my fingers and coffee.
Speaker 2: All Right, we can't find these guys. We know they're
Speaker 2: hunkered down somewhere, so we kind of do a big
Speaker 2: loop back to our old camp because the new team
Speaker 2: coming in was going to use that for a few days,
Speaker 2: and we had left some water there for them from
Speaker 2: the river, so we down that. Then we bring in
Speaker 2: the bloodhound and the canine unit, which you know, we
Speaker 2: were still we were still learning. So that was our
Speaker 2: first mistake. We should have brought the canon in first
Speaker 2: before another unit. The bloodhound is he's on he's on track,
Speaker 2: he's sniffing, but he's we can tell he's kind of
Speaker 2: following us and he's getting confused, and now it's hot.
Speaker 2: So they're like, okay. So my manager at the time,
Speaker 2: he knew this area well, so he's like, hey, I
Speaker 2: want to check one spot where I know they've come
Speaker 2: in and out before, so they're like quickly prepping LG.
Speaker 2: So we like break branches. The helicopter comes in, lands,
Speaker 2: we jump in. We land on the dry river bed
Speaker 2: and its thick bank on either side there, so we're
Speaker 2: like okay, but there had been a flood a while ago,
Speaker 2: so it's like perfect burms god like fallen trees and twigs.
Speaker 2: So we're like, these guys are here, like this is
Speaker 2: this is going to be an issue. So we're trying
Speaker 2: to move as fast as we can but as safely
Speaker 2: as possible, like clearing it, and eventually get up out
Speaker 2: of the river bed and their tracks have gone. They're
Speaker 2: they're gone, They're across the river and they're away. So
Speaker 2: we're like okay, So they basically just did a loop,
Speaker 2: you know, but that taught me from them on always
Speaker 2: carried double the water you want, you know, I always
Speaker 2: carried it in the beginning two leaders. I now carry four,
Speaker 2: and then I carry an extra one, which was just
Speaker 2: a hand to whoever's on the tracks. That guy's sucking,
Speaker 2: he's tired, you know, hand him some water. Because someone
Speaker 2: did that to me and I was like, oh, than gosh.
Speaker 2: So that was my first like, these are poachers and
Speaker 2: they're clever, so we think they saw us at some
Speaker 2: point because a couple of days later, so we've done
Speaker 2: the changeover. I'm back at Maine HQ doing like not
Speaker 2: light duties, but I'm not in the bush on that
Speaker 2: main camp doing some patrols. And itways, the guys radio in,
Speaker 2: Hey we've got poachers. Okay, cool, So we now we're
Speaker 2: prepping to go there. So by the time we get there,
Speaker 2: it's later morning. It was like four o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 2: so we need to go and now meet up with
Speaker 2: our guys, but we had a radio situation, so the
Speaker 2: radios were off to save battery because we have to
Speaker 2: carry all this stuff in we had radio times anyways,
Speaker 2: so we go walk up to camp and like try
Speaker 2: to call our guys, which was very sketchy. So we're like,
Speaker 2: they come out, it's us, okay, So we make a plan.
Speaker 2: Our two African trackers, most experienced ones, we going to
Speaker 2: go track where they lost confirmed the spot, and then
Speaker 2: what we were going to do was sit on high
Speaker 2: points in glass. So eventually what had happened the night
Speaker 2: before was they were busy filling up water from the
Speaker 2: river because we had drunk it all. We left them
Speaker 2: a little bit and as they're drinking, you know, you
Speaker 2: got to the hippo's crocs. Guys might cross you gotta
Speaker 2: be careful. So one guy's busy checking and he tells
Speaker 2: the guy and he sees them crossing. Now they're wearing
Speaker 2: our uniform, which was just Odie Green. You can buy
Speaker 2: it anywhere from a store. They'd either seen us or
Speaker 2: had it and decided to put it on. So they
Speaker 2: see them and like, all right, cool, let's go and
Speaker 2: follow up. So they follow them, they find the tracks.
Speaker 2: It's starting to get dark and they lose the track,
Speaker 2: so they do a three p sixty get back to
Speaker 2: their tracks and they see where they had walked. These
Speaker 2: guys had walked on top of so both people for
Speaker 2: each other. So the team leaders like, we're going back
Speaker 2: to camp for the night next morning, will look for
Speaker 2: these guys because there's lions around. So the guy would
Speaker 2: also they would go hunker down for the night as well.
Speaker 2: So we did another follow up as soon as the
Speaker 2: helicopter came in. Again, these guys know what's going on
Speaker 2: and they'll head out. So what we need to be
Speaker 2: on the tracks always because what's happened before is they'd
Speaker 2: go out of the area helicopters chasing looking here. If
Speaker 2: no one's tracking, they'll come in from a different side
Speaker 2: and go somewhere else. So you need to confirm they've
Speaker 2: gone out and like, hey, they've gone into this reserve.
Speaker 2: Now that reserves team will follow up and take care
Speaker 2: of it. Mmm. So it's very much a cat and
Speaker 2: mouse game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it's not all that surprising. Like you said,
Speaker 1: you said that you know they're clever folks. I mean
Speaker 1: that's to be doing what they're doing. I suppose they
Speaker 1: have to be otherwise they wouldn't make it that long
Speaker 1: in poaching animals. I guess suppose they got to learn
Speaker 1: some pretty some tricks to get pretty slick out there,
Speaker 1: which makes your job all the more interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the best rangers were former posters because
Speaker 2: they know all the tricks of the trade. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well then like, and I mean this is no
Speaker 1: news to you, but like I've talked to several folks
Speaker 1: in like Safari companies of some of their game trackers
Speaker 1: or former poachers, you know, so it's like they get
Speaker 1: they're they're good at it.
Speaker 2: I in Zambia, I's all in the village, bring your rifle.
Speaker 2: I'll give you a job. And it worked a few times.
Speaker 2: Guys came in, they handed over their rifle to the
Speaker 2: game scouts. I gave them a job.
Speaker 3: Hmm.
Speaker 2: So interesting controls with them, which was extremely interesting seeing
Speaker 2: guys who had poached for years now teaching me their craft,
Speaker 2: which was quite cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you ever learn like like, was there a
Speaker 1: pretty like established like list of like, let me try
Speaker 1: to think of a better way to word what I'm asking, Like,
Speaker 1: out of the swath of former poachers that you worked with,
Speaker 1: did did all of them relatively have the same skill set?
Speaker 1: Like I'm sure some of them had like unique things
Speaker 1: that they did, but did they all kind of have
Speaker 1: like certain tricks of the trade That was like, these
Speaker 1: are what poachers do?
Speaker 2: Yeah, now you've got like obviously rhino poachers are very
Speaker 2: different to meat poachers. But like the meat poachers I
Speaker 2: did a lot more work with in Zambia, you get
Speaker 2: to talking to the guys and they get to trust
Speaker 2: you when you go and patrol with them, and you're
Speaker 2: spending days out in the bush with them, So eventually
Speaker 2: you'd ask like all right, So what would you poach?
Speaker 2: And they'd eventually tell you, and you'd ask, all right, okay,
Speaker 2: how would you poach a leopard? And they'd tell you
Speaker 2: and shoot a puku. I'd hang it in a tree,
Speaker 2: I'd hide, I'd wait there for heever this thing would
Speaker 2: eventually come, might take days, I'd shoot it, you know.
Speaker 2: So they tell you these and you learn the tricks
Speaker 2: of the trade, and like I've had it before. We
Speaker 2: were on patrol then, like we might come across tracks,
Speaker 2: but we we knew the area and we knew they
Speaker 2: were either passing through or they were coming out, or
Speaker 2: they were operating in our area. And you can talk
Speaker 2: with the guy's body language. If the guys get energized
Speaker 2: and they're like excited, I know, okay, this is fresh.
Speaker 2: So then they you know, it's all now it's time
Speaker 2: to go in track. And yeah, I let them do
Speaker 2: that because they're better than me.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 1: Sure, that's interesting, man, that's so what man? How much
Speaker 1: I mean these guys that are like doing this rhino poaching,
Speaker 1: Like like what is the like if you were to
Speaker 1: catch one of them, Like if you are to catch
Speaker 1: a couple of rhino poachers, what like what penalty or
Speaker 1: that do they stand to face.
Speaker 2: It depends with what country the poaching is in and
Speaker 2: what the laws are. I know, South Africa I think's
Speaker 2: cracked down quite a bit. Well, unless they've shot a rhino,
Speaker 2: they haven't committed a crime in terms of rhino poaching.
Speaker 2: You know, you can get them for trespassing, illegal of
Speaker 2: a firearm, things like that, But unless they've shot the
Speaker 2: rhino and they've got a horn in their hand, you
Speaker 2: can't charge them with it.
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, what if if they if if you catch
Speaker 1: them and they've shot a rhino, Like, how much trouble
Speaker 1: can they get in?
Speaker 2: Off the top of my head, I couldn't tell you.
Speaker 2: I never dealt with that. I just like, once they
Speaker 2: were caught and gone, that was the courts and then
Speaker 2: that was the lawyer's issue to deal with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess what I'm asking is I'm trying to
Speaker 1: weigh like risk versus reward, Like how I come like
Speaker 1: this obviously had to have been somewhat like lucrative or
Speaker 1: like a like a way for these guys to make
Speaker 1: a living. Otherwise, I mean, these are some like dangerous,
Speaker 1: sketchy and like very illegal situations. These people are putting
Speaker 1: themselves into so it had to be a pretty high reward.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the rhino poaching guys, they they did very
Speaker 2: well for themselves there. There's a small town in Mozambique
Speaker 2: called Musannghita. Before the rhino poaching kicked off in two
Speaker 2: thousand and nine, it was just a small little village.
Speaker 2: You go there when the rhino poaching was like peak
Speaker 2: peak in twenty sixteen seventeen. When I was there, stories
Speaker 2: I heard people are brand new houses, new vehicles. You know,
Speaker 2: whoever had the nicest house was the best poacher in
Speaker 2: that village. They obviously went from mozamb beacon to Kruger
Speaker 2: National Park. And then the stuff I dealt with was
Speaker 2: syndicates in the area, you know, coming in.
Speaker 3: That's insane.
Speaker 1: So like people were like popping off in this town
Speaker 1: like all of a sudden, like big new nice house
Speaker 1: and stuff, and I guess they just weren't able to
Speaker 1: able to catch them more or less.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, these guys are clever. I mean, Mozambique
Speaker 2: had a long civil war in the nineties that ended,
Speaker 2: and those guys, some of them became very good rhino
Speaker 2: poachers because they're very good at bushcraft and tracking, and
Speaker 2: you know, some of the guys we tracked, we figured
Speaker 2: they were better than us what we were doing because
Speaker 2: they did it for a lot longer or not what
Speaker 2: we were doing, which was protecting wildlife.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is wild man.
Speaker 2: They always ran the risk of obviously getting eaten by lions,
Speaker 2: you know, getting shot if they came into Kruger Park,
Speaker 2: they could get shot by the government sand park rangers.
Speaker 2: So you know they ran a risk. But you know,
Speaker 2: you got to respect them for the skill they had.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is fascinating man. Okay, let's deviate, like, so
Speaker 3: you go.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're in Africa, and I know I was
Speaker 1: talking about specific instances like how how long were you
Speaker 1: over there that time before you came back home and
Speaker 1: went into the military.
Speaker 2: So I did basically twenty sixteen to January twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2: I was in South Africa on and off. I'd go back,
Speaker 2: go for a few months, come home, go back to
Speaker 2: the old job working at the horse wrench to make
Speaker 2: some money, go back. Because I was a volunteer, I
Speaker 2: wasn't making money. I was just doing this because I
Speaker 2: absolutely loved it. And then I remember I was on
Speaker 2: a patrol and I was like, I want to keep
Speaker 2: doing this, but I need money and I need to
Speaker 2: kind of make a plan here to kind of muster myself,
Speaker 2: make a better resume for myself. I was all right,
Speaker 2: let me join the army now. So I came home
Speaker 2: joined and then I actually got stationed up in Alaska
Speaker 2: with their one unit there in Anchorage for three years.
Speaker 3: Three years?
Speaker 1: Did you I mean did you did you always plan
Speaker 1: on getting back to Africa after It sounds like you
Speaker 1: were Yeah.
Speaker 2: At that point, Yeah, definitely that was the plan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, sir, and talk me through. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: trying to get like all the details of your story
Speaker 1: just because I find it interesting. So you're in the
Speaker 1: military for three years, you get out, Like what was
Speaker 1: your game plan from there?
Speaker 2: So the lost See I got out jullel May thirty
Speaker 2: first was my date. I got out with leave twenty
Speaker 2: twenty two. End of January of twenty two, I had surgery.
Speaker 2: I had partially torn a ligament in my ankle on
Speaker 2: a jump. It was just a routine surgery, but I
Speaker 2: had to physio that. So I was already making calls
Speaker 2: then and like, I know I'm getting out and you'd
Speaker 2: be proactive and one of my mentor from South Africa.
Speaker 2: He ended up working in Zambia and he said, hey,
Speaker 2: there might be an opportunity for you here. So he
Speaker 2: gave me the contact details. We sent a few emails,
Speaker 2: we had a few phone calls and he's like, if
Speaker 2: you're interested, come for an interview in Zambia. So I
Speaker 2: went got out. Yeah, I think the forty first thirty
Speaker 2: first of May twenty twenty two. I got out, and
Speaker 2: I want to say end of June. I was there
Speaker 2: for the interview.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then you didn't waste any time, No, I was.
Speaker 2: I was committed. So then I started working. It took
Speaker 2: a while to get all the PaperWorks sworded. I started
Speaker 2: working in March, early March of twenty twenty three, and
Speaker 2: then did anti poaching till about towards the end of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. So I did that for eighteen months.
Speaker 3: How did that? How did that evolve or turn into
Speaker 3: what you're doing now?
Speaker 2: So I he loved anti poaching. It's an amazing job.
Speaker 2: It's a hard job, but it's great.
Speaker 1: Sounds like, dude, it sounds I mean, it sounds like
Speaker 1: a hard job you're talking about, you know, getting water
Speaker 1: from the river, dodging hippos and crocs and not eating
Speaker 1: much and fingers swelling up from dehydration.
Speaker 3: Sounds like a hard job, but it sounds like you
Speaker 3: liked it.
Speaker 2: I absolutely loved it. And like a lot of guys
Speaker 2: have ostome once the day, it's anti poaching and the army.
Speaker 2: The biggest different is the army you have support anti poaching.
Speaker 2: You don't. It's you and the guys you're with, and
Speaker 2: that's that's it. You know, you got to make your
Speaker 2: own food. You've got to patrols. There's no backup like
Speaker 2: in the military, there's no going back to the barracks.
Speaker 2: One thing that stuck with me is I did a
Speaker 2: patrol with some of my scouts in here in Zambia,
Speaker 2: and we were going through some swampy areas, but it
Speaker 2: was the dry season, so it was kind of burked
Speaker 2: out fields. But then the swamps are still wet, so
Speaker 2: we're wearing gum boots. It's hot. We did about maybe
Speaker 2: twenty two any two k's that morning. I'd already drunken
Speaker 2: all my water and we've got like ten kilometers to
Speaker 2: get back to the vehicle. The vehicle can't come to us.
Speaker 2: No one can drive it but me. No one knows
Speaker 2: how to drive it but me. I remember walking, same thing.
Speaker 2: I stopped sweating, you know, fingers swollen during the walk.
Speaker 2: I was like, you can't quit. There is no quitting
Speaker 2: because no one, no one's gonna come and get you.
Speaker 2: You need to walk. So by the time I got
Speaker 2: to the car, I was finished. I was just like,
Speaker 2: Remember I started the car and I was just like,
Speaker 2: ace didn't work. I didn't care. I just was like
Speaker 2: even the guys were like, ah, one night, you pushed yourself.
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, yeah, so that's the biggest thing.
Speaker 2: There's no there's no calling in for help, there's no
Speaker 2: you know, help is far far away. That's the biggest Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, how okay, so how does that? How do you
Speaker 1: how do you turn what you're doing in anti poaching
Speaker 1: to what you're doing now?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So, you know, love it, but you know, living
Speaker 2: in the bush twenty four to seven, you know, living
Speaker 2: on a river, living living next to the river, living
Speaker 2: in a tent is great. But as I was getting older,
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, I'd eventually like to have
Speaker 2: a family, do other things, but I still want to.
Speaker 2: I still love this passion. How can I keep how
Speaker 2: can I fund my passion? Still and in the bush.
Speaker 2: So I was like, right, I'm an American. People from
Speaker 2: back home might listen to me from my story. Maybe
Speaker 2: I could connect the dots and bring people here to Africa.
Speaker 2: So that was the plan. I had, like made a
Speaker 2: few calls to preserves and lodges i'd worked around in
Speaker 2: my experience, and they were like, yeah, we're very interested.
Speaker 2: And then people back home are like, if you start
Speaker 2: a company, like I'll definitely come on a safari. So
Speaker 2: I just went okay, uh, you know, and then started
Speaker 2: the company, which was a huge learning curve. Going from
Speaker 2: living in a tent on the bush to now learning
Speaker 2: to run a company was very difficult.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so so tell me say on here so folks
Speaker 1: can hear. What's the name of your company?
Speaker 2: One Niner Expeditions.
Speaker 3: Where'd the name come from?
Speaker 2: Bible verse Joshua one nine?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: During the later years when I was in anti poaching,
Speaker 2: that gave me a lot of comfort. So I remember
Speaker 2: I was I was thinking of names for my company.
Speaker 2: I was sitting on the banks of the Kafui River,
Speaker 2: Mosquitos everywhere, So I've got redlands on, I'm writing, writing,
Speaker 2: and I can't think of anything, like I'm putting Safari,
Speaker 2: I'm putting I can't think of anything. And then it
Speaker 2: just clicked. So I just went one Niner expeditions. There
Speaker 2: you go. Yeah, so I was like, this is perfect. Yeah.
Speaker 1: This might be a difficult question to ask because if
Speaker 1: someone asked me the same question, I probably have a
Speaker 1: hard time answer it. But I'm curious. Nonetheless, what about Africa?
Speaker 1: I mean, you grew up, I mean if you were
Speaker 1: from San Diego, like California is a beautiful state, you know,
Speaker 1: like we have wild life and wild places here in America.
Speaker 1: What like what drew you to Africa? Specifically?
Speaker 2: For me in the beginning, it was the freedom of
Speaker 2: just the bush, Like there it is, go explore, there's
Speaker 2: no my worries were what I'm when I get back
Speaker 2: to camp. I need to cook, I needed did I
Speaker 2: bring firewood? Is the Did I bring enough water? You know?
Speaker 2: Is did I dig a dipping Do I need to
Speaker 2: redig a hole to go to the restroom before bed?
Speaker 2: Like and just the freedom of being out there in
Speaker 2: no worries. It was absolutely amazing. And then you know,
Speaker 2: going to Africa, you either it either stays with you
Speaker 2: and you love it and it gets in your skin
Speaker 2: like that's why I got it tattooed here, or you
Speaker 2: never want to go back, and it's just one of
Speaker 2: those things for me. I can't. Like I went home.
Speaker 2: I went to San Diego in March and I was
Speaker 2: there for like you know, I was there for two
Speaker 2: weeks and my family's like, yeah, you're ready to go back,
Speaker 2: aren't you. In the last like three days I was there,
Speaker 2: I was like, no, no, no, I'm still good to
Speaker 2: see you guys, Like I'm happy. No, no, no, you need
Speaker 2: to go back. So yeah, it's just absolutely love it here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, And like I said, I've not spent a
Speaker 1: fraction of the time in the African continent that you have,
Speaker 1: but I'll give you, like briefly kind of what happened
Speaker 1: to me. I got the opportunity to go on a
Speaker 1: hunting safari back in twenty twenty three, and it was
Speaker 1: like I wasn't seeking out the opportunity I had. I
Speaker 1: had friends that had gone and told me how incredible
Speaker 1: it was, and I just honestly didn't think that much
Speaker 1: about it. I was like, I'll do it one of
Speaker 1: these days, Like It's something I wanted to do, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't like high on.
Speaker 3: The priority list.
Speaker 1: Well, this this opportunity arrives and it's just like the
Speaker 1: timing of it worked out. My wife would be able
Speaker 1: to go with me, and I was like, yeah, let's
Speaker 1: do it. And my genuine mindset is I was like,
Speaker 1: I'll go to Africa and I'll I'll check the box
Speaker 1: and I'll go.
Speaker 3: I did it. You know. We went on a hunting
Speaker 3: safari in Africa and I saw it and that'll be that.
Speaker 1: We were two or three days into that trip and
Speaker 1: my wife and I were talking about how we were
Speaker 1: going to get back there like immediately, and I can't.
Speaker 1: And that's what That's why I say, I understand how
Speaker 1: it would kind of be difficult to kind of put
Speaker 1: your finger on it. Because folks who ask me, like
Speaker 1: folks that I, you know, grew up with or have
Speaker 1: hunted with a ton around here and I still love
Speaker 1: the United States. I still and I hunt around here
Speaker 1: all the time. But they're like, why do you talk
Speaker 1: about Africa so much? I'm like, because I can't get
Speaker 1: it out of my head, Like I can't really explain
Speaker 1: to you why I just can't I can't get it
Speaker 1: out of my head. It's something about that landscape and
Speaker 1: how wild it feels over there. I know as part
Speaker 1: of it. That's not all of it. But yeah, the
Speaker 1: way you put it is correct. It like if you
Speaker 1: go there and it gets it works its way into
Speaker 1: your bloodstream, there's no getting rid of it. Like I'm
Speaker 1: I'm constantly thinking about like I as we as you
Speaker 1: and I are talking right now, I leave for Quasulu
Speaker 1: natal in nine days, and nine days can't come quick enough,
Speaker 1: Like that's all I can think about. It's getting over there.
Speaker 1: So I understand. I understand the attraction of Africa. I
Speaker 1: just am curious sometimes I'm curious with myself. I'm like,
Speaker 1: why is the pool so strong? But I don't know.
Speaker 3: I just know that it is.
Speaker 2: Yes, It's it's one of those things where if people
Speaker 2: get it, they get it, you know, Like I've I
Speaker 2: did an expo in southern California in March, and I
Speaker 2: was like speaking to people and some people are like,
Speaker 2: and I don't want to go to Africa or one day,
Speaker 2: and then you know people who have been there, like, yes,
Speaker 2: talk to me. They like they get it, and you
Speaker 2: know it was you could see in their eyes. They've
Speaker 2: been there and they've seen it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what to talk to me at One Niner Expeditions?
Speaker 3: What talk?
Speaker 1: Give me like a overview? Like what does this company do?
Speaker 1: What is your company One Niner Expeditions?
Speaker 3: What do they do?
Speaker 2: So the main main thing is I take clients to
Speaker 2: places I have been myself or are now associated with.
Speaker 2: So one of our big our one of our luxury
Speaker 2: lodges in South Africa, I used to patrol there, you know,
Speaker 2: and I've taken clients there and I know the place
Speaker 2: better than some of the guides. You know, there's been
Speaker 2: if there's been a time or two where the guy
Speaker 2: he doesn't know a specific area we're going to, and
Speaker 2: I'm like that word because I walked it and I
Speaker 2: didn't drive it. And all the senior scouts when they
Speaker 2: see me, well I'm on the back of the game viewer,
Speaker 2: so they just think it's guests. And then I'll be
Speaker 2: like a wave and they'll go wow, I'll jump out hugs.
Speaker 2: We haven't seen each other a wile. We've had each
Speaker 2: other's backs back in the day. So and you know,
Speaker 2: the tracker and then the driver like I was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm told you, I wasn't lying like I. You know,
Speaker 2: I used to patrol here. These are my guys. And
Speaker 2: then we also it's all about conservation. So when clients
Speaker 2: go to that place, for example, we then take them
Speaker 2: to the ranger HQ, they can get a talk from
Speaker 2: the rangers there about how they do anti poaching in
Speaker 2: that specific area because that reserve it's all it's fencing
Speaker 2: on all sides, not an open system. And then I
Speaker 2: also work with the first all female anti poaching unit,
Speaker 2: the Black Mambas, So I take clients to go meet
Speaker 2: them and they see how they operate and how they
Speaker 2: have a different style because they're unarmed and they're in
Speaker 2: a open system, so that the reserve they worked on
Speaker 2: has other reserves around them, all no fences, and it's
Speaker 2: connected to Kruger. So it's all about learning conservation, you know,
Speaker 2: how the communities are involved, and I tell people the
Speaker 2: realities of anti poaching. You know, just to get a
Speaker 2: scout on the ground is extremely expensive. You've got to
Speaker 2: pay for his training, or if you get someone who's
Speaker 2: come from training and certified, you've got to pay for
Speaker 2: this qualifications. You got to feed them, You've got to
Speaker 2: give him a uniform. If he's armed, you have to
Speaker 2: give him a rifle. You know. If he's from someone
Speaker 2: in house you want to train, you got to send
Speaker 2: him to get his competency. You've got to have a vehicle,
Speaker 2: you've got to get the fuel to drop him off.
Speaker 2: So before that scout, you've hired what's his boot on
Speaker 2: the ground as the first patrol with you. You've spent
Speaker 2: thousands of dollars on him just to patrol. And a
Speaker 2: lot of the times that money comes from landowners or
Speaker 2: private donors or organizations. So how do you subsidize that
Speaker 2: to keep wild life sustainable? Management tourism is a big
Speaker 2: part of that. So I show people this so they
Speaker 2: don't just come to Africa and go okay, cool. I
Speaker 2: saw the Big Five, saw some rhino. We went. I
Speaker 2: saw the Victoria Falls in Zambia. I did a sunset
Speaker 2: cruise like a camp or a state luxury. They really
Speaker 2: get to see what it means from someone on the
Speaker 2: ground like me. It's extremely passionate and education. If you
Speaker 2: can educate someone and they can go home and tell someone,
Speaker 2: you know, one person was motivated by what I told them.
Speaker 2: They go and then tell ten people. They tell ten
Speaker 2: you know, you spread the word.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So how do like.
Speaker 1: So you bring, like you take take like a you
Speaker 1: have like a group of clients that are they're coming
Speaker 1: in and it's like their first time in Africa. What
Speaker 1: is there, Like, what's a normal more reaction because when
Speaker 1: they're when they're learning all this for the first time.
Speaker 1: Because again coming from even I'm assuming to me if
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, most of like your clients like they're familiar
Speaker 1: with like hunting, and I mean, I know you're not
Speaker 1: a hunting safari, but they're familiar with like the hunting
Speaker 1: culture in America. How like how do they perceive and
Speaker 1: when you hear someone got caught for some sort of
Speaker 1: poaching in America, it is a typically very different thing
Speaker 1: than poaching as it takes place in Africa. So like,
Speaker 1: how how do your clients kind of absorb all this
Speaker 1: the first time they're learning of all this activity.
Speaker 2: So I've I've I've noticed it very quickly, like on
Speaker 2: our first game drive or our first time in the bush,
Speaker 2: everything is amazing. We're stopping from Paula, We're stopping for baboons,
Speaker 2: we're stopping for birds. By the end of their safari,
Speaker 2: they're like ah, it's an impala, it's a you know,
Speaker 2: it's a baboon. I don't care. I want to see
Speaker 2: the big stuff. And that switch comes very quickly, especially
Speaker 2: if they see a lot of wildlife and they've been
Speaker 2: immersed in it properly. And you know, I get asked
Speaker 2: around the fire all the time, talk to me about,
Speaker 2: you know, sustainable conservation, and I'll explain it to them.
Speaker 2: You know, if we're in an area where you know,
Speaker 2: there's a village and you know they're harvesting their crops
Speaker 2: and I heard of elephants come in and they eat
Speaker 2: all the crops that night, they're not gonna want the
Speaker 2: wildlife there that's feeding them. That's you know, their subsistence farmers. Yeah,
Speaker 2: or there's no infrastructure there and source of income is
Speaker 2: going to poach. Where if you put a lodge in,
Speaker 2: if you bring international clients through this lodge, I'm simplifying
Speaker 2: things here. You've got you know, chefs, you've got trackers,
Speaker 2: you've got drivers, you've got you know, maids, You've got
Speaker 2: people in that lodge and you're hiring them from the
Speaker 2: local community. But then it amplifies right. Well, now there's
Speaker 2: a few other lodges when yourself the p coaching, so
Speaker 2: there's more wildlife. So you then used your funds or
Speaker 2: however you want to do it to then put in
Speaker 2: the anti poaching, bring the wildlife up, and that's sustainable use.
Speaker 2: And you see it click with people like, ah, okay,
Speaker 2: I get it now. I wouldn't have got that had
Speaker 2: I not come and seen it myself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would imagine that's a probably a pretty fun
Speaker 1: part of your job watching a lot of these people
Speaker 1: experience that for the first time.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, I love it, you know, because at
Speaker 2: first I didn't realize I obviously did it the first
Speaker 2: time I went ten years ago. Baboon and Paula just
Speaker 2: the general game, general wildlife. So the first time it
Speaker 2: happened with a client, they were I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: And then now it's a reward. I love seeing the
Speaker 2: shift of ah, it's just a baboon, let's let's keep going,
Speaker 2: you know, and like, I get it now. So yeah,
Speaker 2: you'll well, sometimes they all a tracker about an impala
Speaker 2: or something in the tracker might joke, yeah, it's great
Speaker 2: meat in the initial shock and they go, yeah, obviously
Speaker 2: we eat them. So it's very interesting to see that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, do you I mean, like, I know you're not.
Speaker 1: I know, like the the your outfit isn't taking people hunting.
Speaker 3: But do you like.
Speaker 1: Work cooperatively cooperatively with any like or any of the
Speaker 1: properties that you work on. Is there any hunting or
Speaker 1: culling that takes place on there?
Speaker 2: I mean everyone culls, you have to, especially in a
Speaker 2: fenced in area, and culling is a good thing. It
Speaker 2: means your your management practices are working. But I don't
Speaker 2: specifically work in areas with hunting.
Speaker 3: Now, what do you think?
Speaker 1: And this is another one of those like big questions,
Speaker 1: but you can take it how whatever direction you want
Speaker 1: to take it. How is like, well, I'm frau. Is
Speaker 1: it like, let me do this one first? Other than
Speaker 1: like the obvious, Like we been talking a lot about poaching.
Speaker 1: What do you think the biggest threat towards like wildlife
Speaker 1: and wildlife habitat is to Africa? And I know that's
Speaker 1: a big question, and it may be something as simple
Speaker 1: as poaching, but are there are there other threats? I
Speaker 1: know because you again looking at if you hear like
Speaker 1: if you just go off press releases over here, you're
Speaker 1: always hearing all kinds of stuff going on in Africa.
Speaker 1: You'll hear about poaching cases, You'll hear about elephant population problems.
Speaker 1: You'll hear about habitat destruction. Like what you're on the
Speaker 1: ground over there, what do you see?
Speaker 3: Like is it?
Speaker 1: Are there big threats to wildlife and wildlife habitat in Africa?
Speaker 3: And are there not? If there is, what are.
Speaker 2: They If you asked me in the first few years
Speaker 2: of me being here, I would have said poaching, poaching
Speaker 2: and poaching. But looking at it now, I mean kind
Speaker 2: of like everywhere in the world, human encroachment, to people
Speaker 2: encroaching on these areas, mismatten, I would say, also mismanagement
Speaker 2: and not putting the people on the ground who deal
Speaker 2: with these animals on a daily basis involved so they
Speaker 2: see them as a set not in Hindrance, you know,
Speaker 2: through ethical tourism, which is the way I do it.
Speaker 2: You know see it. No, we're not going to go
Speaker 2: put snares or like, yes, we understand those elephants came
Speaker 2: through and ad all of your crop. We're very upset.
Speaker 2: We go through and work with the right organizations. One
Speaker 2: they'll probably reimburse you, or there's ways to manage it.
Speaker 2: So I think that would be the biggest is not
Speaker 2: helping the people on the ground and just looking over
Speaker 2: them and trying to like, you know, look from above
Speaker 2: and just say this is how I want to do
Speaker 2: it from you know, around the world, and you know,
Speaker 2: humanity is getting bigger, wild places are getting smaller and smaller. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the way I always try to stay stay
Speaker 1: like I guess like I try to keep in front
Speaker 1: of mine because I heard it was it was a
Speaker 1: pH that operates out of Tanzania. But they said, they
Speaker 1: said people they said, they said people all over the
Speaker 1: all over the globe, but particularly in North America and
Speaker 1: Europe love signing petitions about a country they most of
Speaker 1: them have never stepped foot in. And I was like,
Speaker 1: they make a good point. It's like, uh, I myself,
Speaker 1: it's like I have opinions on wildlife things going on
Speaker 1: in Africa, like, but I've been over there one time.
Speaker 1: You know, It's not like I'm living over there, and
Speaker 1: so I'm always curious to like, what's the people that
Speaker 1: are actually.
Speaker 3: Living there every day? What are they putting up with?
Speaker 1: And you know what, like what's really going on. I'm
Speaker 1: just always curious about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean a big way I can put it
Speaker 2: is obviously, you know California in the state flag has
Speaker 2: the grizzly bear on it. Right, someone from you know, Africa, Asia,
Speaker 2: Australia is now telling people from California, right, We're gonna
Speaker 2: dump a bunch of in la and you need to
Speaker 2: now just deal with it. No, you know, you need
Speaker 2: to find a stainable way to do these things. I'm
Speaker 2: oversimplifying it, but you kind of get what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: I follow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So how the people on the ground who deal
Speaker 2: with these things, how they see fit is how it
Speaker 2: should be done, because at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: it is their country, their resource, their heritage. It's how
Speaker 2: they should want to do it, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, what is like like, like, uh, some of
Speaker 4: the folks that I talked to over there, and I
Speaker 4: know I'm asking you all these hunting questions and I apologize,
Speaker 4: but the.
Speaker 1: Like, how bit Like a lot of the folks that
Speaker 1: I talk to, they always talk about like this pressure
Speaker 1: they get from all these anti hunting organizations, And again,
Speaker 1: do you see any of that because again, like we
Speaker 1: get like over here, you'll get some anti hunting pressure
Speaker 1: and stuff, but it doesn't. It seems pretty pale in
Speaker 1: comparison to the stuff that Africa gets from elephants and lions,
Speaker 1: like the whole cease of the lion thing, Like, do
Speaker 1: you like how heavy is that pressure?
Speaker 2: I haven't seen it really here. I mean, I haven't
Speaker 2: seen it a whole lot, but you do get I
Speaker 2: guess a big one would be, like, you know, some
Speaker 2: of the trackers are the people we work with. They
Speaker 2: game meat. It's part of their culture. So having clients
Speaker 2: hear from people on the ground say it's part of
Speaker 2: our culture, we eat it like it's sustainable resource, it's
Speaker 2: part of our heritage for hundreds of years, then it
Speaker 2: kind of clicks. Okay, so you know that's I'm oversimplifying
Speaker 2: it again, but you kind of get what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: But in terms of the anti hunting stuff, I haven't
Speaker 2: really seen it myself. I've just been more involved in
Speaker 2: the conservation on the ground. Is this organization or is
Speaker 2: this what if your agenda isn't trying to actually help
Speaker 2: on the ground, I don't have time to hear. I've
Speaker 2: got things to do.
Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, because it was I mean, it was fascinating
Speaker 1: to me. Man like the where I was at, every
Speaker 1: every tracker, every person, every person who worked that outfit
Speaker 1: from the skinner into the tracker to the people that
Speaker 1: worked in the lodge everything, like all of them. I
Speaker 1: don't they told us like game meat is all they ate,
Speaker 1: Like they didn't eat anything else as far as meat goes,
Speaker 1: Like all they ate was the wild game and most
Speaker 1: of it was like stuff that was brought in from
Speaker 1: those hunters. But I was like, man, if you were
Speaker 1: to take this away, that would be a huge shift
Speaker 1: in how they live their lives.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean in the very rural communities, they're not
Speaker 2: going to slaughter other a cow every so often to eat.
Speaker 2: You know, they subsidized with fish or game meat. You know,
Speaker 2: their cows are their currency, their resource. They're they're not
Speaker 2: just going to you know, kill one to eat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, topic going back to one nine or expeditions, like what.
Speaker 3: Do you like, what do you take these folks to do?
Speaker 1: Like I was looking around at some of the stuff
Speaker 1: that you offer, like I think you have one coming up,
Speaker 1: and like you'll think I've seen one coming up in
Speaker 1: like Zambia or stuff like that, Like like take walk
Speaker 1: me through. Like if if I were to if I
Speaker 1: were to book a trip with you, like what what
Speaker 1: are we going to go do? Like I know we're
Speaker 1: going out into the bush, but like what are what
Speaker 1: are we going to see?
Speaker 3: What are we gonna go do?
Speaker 2: So I sit down with all my clients. I mean,
Speaker 2: I've got general stuff on my website, like pre done packages,
Speaker 2: but I customize everything for my client. If they're like no,
Speaker 2: from the second I land on content till the second
Speaker 2: I leave, I want you to handle everything. I'm like,
Speaker 2: got it, I can handle. You know. Land at the airport,
Speaker 2: I'm there. My private transfer company that I've used and
Speaker 2: I know well we use. We go stay at you know,
Speaker 2: if we're overnighting in Johannesburg, we stay at my friend's lodge.
Speaker 2: It's just they all know me. Then if we're going
Speaker 2: to Zambia, we're staying at places I know, the guides there,
Speaker 2: the trackers there, I all know, you know, in like
Speaker 2: Livingstone for example, South Africa, the lodge I used to
Speaker 2: work at. You'll see, everyone knows me there and it
Speaker 2: puts everyone at ease. I remember one client we were
Speaker 2: checking into a lodge and I just you know, I
Speaker 2: just greeted the guy in the local dialect, and he
Speaker 2: smiled and we started chatting. And at the end of
Speaker 2: the trip she was like, you put me at such
Speaker 2: ease because of that, And all I did was say
Speaker 2: hi in the local dialect. So just small things like that,
Speaker 2: So I tailor everything. If someone's like, hey, I want
Speaker 2: to do a helicopter ride over the Victoria Falls or
Speaker 2: up over the will on the game reserve, we can
Speaker 2: organize that. You know. They want to do a snare
Speaker 2: sweep with an anti poaching unit, we you know, we
Speaker 2: can do that within reason. So I customize everything and
Speaker 2: I can help people with their expectations as well.
Speaker 1: That would be doing a man I would be. I
Speaker 1: would be all over doing a snare sweep with the
Speaker 1: anti poaching team. Think they'd be stupid cool.
Speaker 2: I love it because it's one of those things where
Speaker 2: if you find a snare, you've directly saved an animal,
Speaker 2: you know, like, because the snare gets set and it's left,
Speaker 2: you know, the animal gets into it, it's going to
Speaker 2: suffer and die. So you've just you've directly done wildlife
Speaker 2: conservation and that instant you've taken it down, you know.
Speaker 1: Well, the biggest thing that I can take away from
Speaker 1: This is just more people should go to Africa.
Speaker 2: And everyone has this preconception of its like super super
Speaker 2: expensive and once in a lifetime. Yeah, you can do those,
Speaker 2: but there's also you can customize anything to fit your budget,
Speaker 2: you know. And then to day if you just want
Speaker 2: to come and see wildlife and you don't care about
Speaker 2: a five course meal, more power to you. You want to
Speaker 2: go camping, that's also amazing. It's just about getting out
Speaker 2: there and experiencing these things.
Speaker 3: How can people find You.
Speaker 2: Can find us on website one niner Expeditions dot com, Instagram,
Speaker 2: Facebook at one nine er Expeditions. We have a YouTube
Speaker 2: channel where we have all of our highlight videos of
Speaker 2: safaris and a couple of documentaries. And I've also done
Speaker 2: an interview with an owner of a game launch and
Speaker 2: we discussed how safaris work from that side of the
Speaker 2: house too. People can find us there.
Speaker 1: Cool cool man, Well man, it was fantastic getting to
Speaker 1: talk to you of a really interesting story, and good
Speaker 1: on you for figuring out a way to stay in Africa.
Speaker 1: That's I'm slightly jealous that you're just there all the time.
Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate that, and thank you for having
Speaker 2: me on was amazing, and.
Speaker 3: That's gonna wrap us up for today.
Speaker 1: I hope you all enjoyed that conversation as much as
Speaker 1: I did, and I hope you enjoyed kind of this
Speaker 1: first step into Africa and its wild places and its wildlife, because,
Speaker 1: like I said, we're gonna learn more about that place
Speaker 1: in the near future. Thank you for listening to Backward
Speaker 1: University as well as Bear Grease in this country life.
Speaker 1: It means a whole whole.
Speaker 3: Lot to all of us over here.
Speaker 1: And if you liked this episode, share it with a
Speaker 1: friend and be sure to stick around because there's a
Speaker 1: whole lot more on the way.
Speaker 3: We'll see you next time.