WEBVTT - Ep. 473: Backwoods University - Bonus Episode: Anti-poaching Stories 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:08.639 Welcome to this bonus drop episode of Backwoods University. I'm 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:11.879 your host, Lake Pickle, and on today's episode, we're going 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.600 to take a sharp topic turn and discuss a place 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:16.959 and a subject that we have yet to cover on 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:20.439 this show, the anti poaching in the continent of Africa. Now, 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:22.760 I will give you a little bit of foreshadowing. We'll 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:26.320 be taking a deeper dive into Africa and its wildlife 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.240 and its wild places further down the line, because I 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.839 am so fascinated by that continent and all the diverse 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:35.280 wildlife that it has in it. And we're just gonna 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:38.160 treat this bonus episode as kind of our first fora 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.239 if you will, into that ever wild place. Today, we're 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:43.640 going to hear from a man named Joshua Laws who 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:47.960 worked directly in anti poaching for several years, and he 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:50.760 has some wild and interesting stories. I think you're going 0:00:50.840 --> 0:01:03.080 to enjoy it. So let's get into it. Let's start, 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:04.960 Let's let's go back, let's go Let's go back to 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.080 the beginning because I got jumped ahead there. So, so 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:09.080 you you're from San Diego. 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:13.440 Originally, yep, went and raised in San Diego, and. 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:15.880 And you spent some time in the military. Is that correct? 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:21.160 Yeah? So I did the military, uh after before sorry, 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:23.520 I did anti poaching, then the military then went back 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:24.280 to anti poaching. 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:27.440 So anti poaching came first. Okay, I had it. 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:29.240 I had it in my head that you you did 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:32.400 military first, all right, So take me there, Like, how 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:34.200 in the like, how in the world do you end 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:38.280 up like even pursuing that idea of getting into working 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:39.080 in anti poaching. 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:41.440 So I'd always had a passion for wildlife as a kid, 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:43.399 you know, growing up my hero was Steve Herwin, the 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:46.880 crocodile hunter and then Less Strout from Survivor Man. So 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:48.960 I was like, how do I how do I combine this? 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.080 And I always had the calling to join the military, 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:54.520 but I wanted to do something first because I know, 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:56.840 once you saw on that dotted line, they own you. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:00.920 So I was researching and then I found a company 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:04.000 in South Africa, an anti poaching company that takes foreigners 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:06.400 to come do their course and patrol. You're a volunteer, 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.440 but you do everything that the rangers do and you 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.520 become a ranger. So I was like, I one hundred 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:13.079 percent want to do this. I was going to give 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:15.680 it six months to a year before joining the army. 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:18.600 So I got a job at my local horse ranch, 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.359 quit all sports, worked, save up the money for plane 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.880 ticket the course, and two months out of high school 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:27.919 I found myself in South Africa. I was the only 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:32.240 American kidding, yeah, only American on the course, and I 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:35.360 absolutely loved it. It was like just baptism by fire 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:39.959 in the bush, learning how to cook on fire track bushcraft. 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:42.760 I absolutely loved every second of it. It was an amazing time. 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:44.360 Yeah. 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:46.760 So, I mean, and so so you're this is a 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:48.800 is it like a kind of deal where you you 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:51.200 obviously you said your time was volunteered to go over there, 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:53.200 but by the end you become a ranger. Is that 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:55.519 like you get qualified or or something along those lines. 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.480 Yeah. So it's a six week course and then from 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.080 there you now know the basics, and then as you 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:03.520 patrol you start to learn more. So I was always 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:07.400 a volunteer until I started in Zambia and then I 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:09.440 actually started working full time. 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:15.440 Gotcha, gotcha? Why uh? Why Africa? Like why did you 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:16.080 originally do? 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:16.320 Like? 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:18.200 Why did you zone in on Africa? 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.399 I've just I've always had a calling for wildlife and 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:23.840 it just the cards just worked out. You know, I 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:26.840 thought about maybe I didn't want to backpack Europe. I 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.280 was thinking maybe going to Asia and doing something there 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:34.480 because I've always loved Nepoll. And then South Africa came 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:36.360 on my radar and I saw an opportunity and I 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.000 just took it andely. 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.200 Yeah all right, so you you show up at this 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.880 place and you're the only American there, as you said, 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.000 and baptized by fire, like what what like walk me through? 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:53.120 Like walk me through like day one out out in 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.240 the African bush when you're like, oh my gosh, I 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:57.600 don't really know anything, but I'm out here, Like what 0:03:57.920 --> 0:03:59.120 do you remember what Day one was? 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:03.880 Like? Yeah, so day one it was foreigner wise, it 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:06.560 was me a Canadian, two guys from the Netherlands, and 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.840 the rest of were South African. So day one, they 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.200 shave your head, take everything off of you, give you 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:18.600 a uniform, boots, you know, old military rucksack, old chest webbing, 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.440 and by the time all the admin's done, it's like 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:24.039 four o'clock in the afternoon. So we do a six 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.240 k march to camp. Then they quickly put us in 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.080 camp for the night. First day is kind of just 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:33.359 like not ADMIN but learning kind of where camp is, 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:35.200 how we're going to do things for the six weeks. 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:38.520 And then like day three was when we were first 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:40.320 in the bush and we were doing tracking. They were 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:43.800 teaching us how to track, so one instructor would go 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.760 out with two of the two of us to lay 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:50.240 tracks very easy so we could learn how to track, 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.160 and then we'd eventually track them with the instructor and 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:58.040 they'd switch. So I went I tracked the second time, 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.200 and then it was my turnout to late tracks. So 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:04.080 we're walking walking, and then we get to a point 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:06.560 where we were sitting and used the tree in some 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:09.760 shade and to simulate a rifle. They gave us white 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:14.279 PBC pipe filled with concrete soud. The guys are having 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.040 a smoke break. One of our instructors, he's sitting there 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:21.039 having a cigarette and we hear a twig snap and 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:22.800 I turn around and I think it's some of the 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.680 guys because I see white, and it wasn't. It was 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.800 a bull elephant with tusks, and I just heard that 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:35.000 low rumble. Corporal Sepo was his name, the instructor. He's 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:36.640 still got the cigarette in his mouth and he's just 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:38.800 like weapons not up. But it's just there. He's like, ah, 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:40.719 we need to go. So we just turned around and 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.880 went and I was like that that was cool. So 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.080 that was my first time elephant in the wild and 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.360 I was like that's awesome. Yeah. And then from there 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:53.240 we did you know, three day survival course, you know 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.280 the guys who are rangers from South Africa. You know, 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:57.960 we did the first aid and then we did they 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:01.279 taught weapons competency for them as volunteers. Obviously we're not 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:04.120 allowed to carry firearms, so we still did the training, 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:06.320 but you know, we're not going to carry a weapon. 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.080 And then it culminated to they took us out to 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:17.200 Big Five out into a reserve, which Big five is buffalo, rhino, elephant, leopard, lion, 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:20.200 so a reserve with everything in it, and we had 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.200 to make a boma and then for a few days 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:24.400 we were tracking there and then we had to go 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.120 back to camp, but in a boma setting, so we'd 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.839 have to dig trenches and cook on coals, dig trenches 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.080 to use the toilets and all of that. Then the 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:37.560 culmination of the last final exercise was a follow up 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.400 chase how you would do it in this particular area 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.559 in South Africa where you had two rangers who would 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:46.440 go and leave tracks and then we had to find 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.240 the tracks and then begin a follow up, which we 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:54.080 had vehicles for this. So when you're tracking, you know 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:56.960 you then we do what's called leapfrogging. So if you're 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.800 on the tracks, you get a general direction where the 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.720 track going, you know, by degrees, so you'd radio win 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.200 generally they're going in this direction. So if Yokul would 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:07.599 then go all the way around kind of look on 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.240 the roads what we call sport traps, kind of where 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.200 the tracks are easy to find, soft sand and if 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:16.000 they find it, well they've just cut it and they've 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.800 narrowed the gap and then we would jump on. So 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:21.360 we did this for a few days. Now. We were 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:23.440 all excited because it was the last one of the 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:27.320 last things to do. But we've been eating hardly anything, 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.080 so we were like, let's just get this done because 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:30.960 as soon as we get it done, sooner we go 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:32.600 back to camp and we can eat. So that was 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:34.360 our big thing. During course, we didn't eat a lot, 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:37.440 so they just taught us how to live in the bush. 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:40.760 And then once you graduate. When I was working at 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.640 that particular area, will volunteering in that particular area. It 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:47.400 was fourteen sixteen days on four days off, which was amazing. 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.240 It was sixteen days in the bush. You know, you 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:52.960 didn't really shower, you ate what you carried with, and 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:56.280 it was an amazing time. Yeah. 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:01.880 At one distinction, man, So like I'm when you originally 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.440 just because like the only experience I've had with Africa 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:06.760 has been on safari, And so originally when you were 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.680 saying tracking, my mind goes like trackers, tracking game. You're 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:14.280 talking about like tracking people because you're tracking poachers, correct, Yeah. 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.120 Sometimes track game like if you find rhino, you're tracking 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:19.520 the rhino right right? 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:24.200 How long I mean, like the whole like tracking people, 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:26.440 Like if you're tracking a poacher, Like how long did 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:28.440 that take to try to feel to kind of start 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:30.640 feeling like you had a decent grasp on it. 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:35.000 Just the more practice you had, and then when you 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.720 were if you were if you got lucky and your 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.760 team leader was a very good tracker, you would then 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:44.800 learn from him. So he might say, like, right, track 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.040 us back to camp from the tracks we came in on. 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:49.600 And if you weren't paying attention, you're new to the area, 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:53.439 you don't familiarize yourself or if like, for example, you're 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:55.520 going to meet up with a team, but you kind 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.640 of cut their tracks. He'll say, right, don't walk to way. 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:01.240 You know, track these guys so you kind of know 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:03.280 where they're going and you can just kind of teach yourself. 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.719 But it just takes practice. I mean, sure, I'll never 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.040 be as good as the guys who grew up doing it. Yeah. 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.640 Yeah, well, I mean, and like I said, we're talking 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:15.360 different things. But like I remember the first time I 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:19.880 watched like an African tracker track, you know, track animals, 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.079 and I was blown away at how good they are 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:23.640 at doing that. 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:24.920 Just blew my mind. 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:28.160 You know, it's it's insane how good they are. They 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:31.040 see like something that means nothing to us, they can 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.600 tell exactly what that means. Oh, he's the whatever animal 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.480 it is, shifted its weight this side or is it's 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:38.160 It's insane, it's an art form. 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:38.880 Yeah. 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:42.480 The first time I was over there, the guy was saying, 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:44.800 like I mean, he was having he was speaking in African, 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:46.959 so I couldn't tell huntil the pH was relaying to 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:48.320 me what he said, but he said that like the 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.640 it was like a h, I. 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:53.640 Think there's a wirebuck maybe but he. 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:55.160 Said that one of them in the herd had a limp. 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:58.840 And I was like what, and he said, by looking 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:00.720 at the somehowut of the track, he's that he could tell. 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:02.840 And sure enough, when we got up to him, like 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.160 there was one in that group of like four or 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:07.199 five that was limpit. I have no idea how he 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:09.520 distinguished that or if either that or he was like 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:11.120 pulling the wool over my eyes and he had seen 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:17.199 him already. But man, those guys are pretty incredible. But anyway, man, 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:19.960 so you go and you do this instructional course, and 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:22.240 you're over there for six months, and then you come 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:24.280 back home and go and do the military. 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:27.360 No. So I came back home and then I really 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:31.520 wanted to go back, and that's why the opportunity with 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.680 that one nonprofit they offered, do you want to go 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:37.600 and help? I said absolutely, I want to get back 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.200 different province, and that's when I met Will. And then 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:43.839 after that time there, I didn't go home right away. 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:47.520 I then got an opportunity to then go back to 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:51.760 the same area but with a different reserve, and so 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:56.280 I then started working there on and off from twenty 0:10:56.400 --> 0:11:01.120 seventeen till twenty nineteen so that would that was when 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:04.040 I really got to hone kind of my bushcroft and 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.560 my anti poaching craft and how it works as just 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:09.280 the boots on the ground ranger, because it was you know, 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:12.000 multiple weeks in the bush, you go out for a bit, 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:15.280 come back in, and we wouldn't just patrol in that reserve. 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.800 We'd go to other hot zones as well in patrol. 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:22.840 M So what like on one of an average day 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:25.800 of like patrol, you're out there like you're going and 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:27.520 you say you go into the bush for a bit. 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:29.400 Like like what are you doing? Are you are you 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:30.240 going there? 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.960 Like is it a were there cases where there were 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:36.719 poachers out there and you're having to catch them or 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:39.040 is it more of like a preventive thing like what's 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:40.280 in what's a day look like? 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.120 So if you're just there's multiple ways to do it. 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:46.600 So let's say you've been assigned to an area and 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:48.720 you're in the bush. You built your boma or your 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.280 boma's already set up with just a thorn thicket where 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:54.280 you're sleeping at night. You know, from there, you might 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.880 get told to go check an area for a few 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:59.280 hours at first light, you go check the area. Then 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.319 you might go back out in the afternoon last light. 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:05.480 If it's moon phase and it's starting to get you know, 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:09.000 full moons coming, you'll start to shift more towards nighttime. 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:13.439 If for example, you're at the main HQ, you might 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.320 go out at a completely different time, but you're going 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.320 you know, from HQ. They might drop you off and 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:21.960 have you walk back, or they might have you check 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:25.560 a fence on the roads walking or with the vehicle. 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:29.680 It totally depends on that threat assessment is in that area. 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:32.160 Yeah, what is it? 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:36.040 So like people, what's the more common when like people 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:40.199 just like like meat poaching or depending if there's rhinos around, 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:42.120 Like what would you run into? 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:45.160 Yeah, if there's you know, if there's meat poaching, it's 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:49.040 typically they're setting snares. They'll set their snare line and 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:53.000 come back for it. There. I was in in South Africa. 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:55.560 I didn't deal with the dog's flushing game. That was 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:59.719 more Zambia and then the rhino poaching side. Almost all 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:04.800 of the rhino poaching incidents I dealt with were reactive 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.760 and they got intel from the inside and they know 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:11.600 exactly where the rhino are. They go in, shoot it, 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:16.240 chop the horn and they're out. So on big massive reserves, yes, 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.280 it's difficult to find them, but if they get the 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.160 shot off, you have time to catch them because they 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:23.120 still have to get out the reserve. If it's a 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.080 smaller reserve, it's quick to get in get out because 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.560 when they're looking for the rhino, you know they're looking 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.960 and they're trying to find the tracks. Sometimes they'll find 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.520 the tracks. They'll then spend the whole day with the rhino, 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.959 wait till lost light, shoot it, and by the time 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:38.920 they've shot it, they know we're coming because we've heard it, 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.720 and then they'll try to get out as fast as 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:43.280 they can. But when they have the horn, they're not 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.720 playing around. They come straight out now, so it's quick. 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:52.120 But when they've shot, it's reactive. You know, if they 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:54.640 don't know you're on them and they're just looking, they're 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.440 kind of walking, they'll still anti track, but when they 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.080 know you're on them, it's very difficult to track. 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:01.600 Right. 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:05.920 Well, first thing before I go back, and I got 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:08.480 some question about that, did you how did you ever 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:10.800 have instances where that happen, Like you're out there working, 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:12.720 then you hear a shot and then you got to move. 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.480 Yeah, it's you got to go, and it's quick more 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.320 often than not, though for me sometimes it was like 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.160 the neighboring farm or the neighboring reserve. Was it was 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.040 they were shooting or hunting or doing doing something or culling. 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.800 You still react, you know, you do. The first thing 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:31.120 I always did is I drew a line in the 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:33.400 sand with my foot, and I mainly put my compass down, 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.040 and then you get, you know kind of I would 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.160 write down on a piece of paper, was it high caliber, 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:42.120 low caliber? What was the estimated distance, what's my location, 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.760 what's the degrees on the compass it is? And then 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.280 I go. So then at HQ, for example, they didn't 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:52.160 go right, he's here, it's roughly here. We can send 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:53.320 a team. 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:56.960 So yeah, yeah. 0:14:57.160 --> 0:14:59.520 How many instances like that where it was a rhino 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.600 and it was isn't like somebody else doing some other activity. 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:04.280 Do you ever have like somebody shoot a rhino? 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.600 Yeah, no, I've had it once. It was I wasn't. 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.200 I was in the area, but I was way further 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:16.480 away north and they shot it. They shot it in 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.200 the south. I didn't know about it. I didn't hear 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:21.240 it until like we had told on the radio. The 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:24.160 next day, Hey, we've got two carcasses. We need to 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.160 go do the crime scene. Meet us there and they 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.400 told us where it was, so we went there and 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:31.280 we had to do You have to cut it open, 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.920 find the bullet. Hopefully there's a thumb print or you 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:38.440 can trace that bullet to a different rhino poaching crime 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:42.040 as well. At that point, it's reactive. Basically, by the 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.760 time the SHOT's gone off, you got a rhino down, 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:47.240 you've lost, and at that point you're just trying to 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:51.720 catch the guys to some south situation. Yeah, that's the 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:56.040 best way to stop them was always intel and being reactive, 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.080 knowing where they come in and sitting on those high points, 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.760 the big reserves and you know, using the buinos to 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.880 find them come in an apprand. 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:09.560 As far as I like being reactive, like you said, 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:13.160 or like, how how is that how prolific of a problem? 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.160 I mean, I've heard you, like I know enough to 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.360 know that, like rhino poaching in South Africa is a problem, 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:22.920 but like for your situation specifically, we're y'all having to 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:26.760 catch people, Like how often were you catching folks that 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:28.320 you knew were in there trying to poach? 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:33.360 So it totally depending on the situation. Like twenty sixteen 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:37.400 and twenty seventeen there I was in got hit extremely hard, 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.880 and those reserves I was voluntary in in the beginning, 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:44.320 and then the reserve I finally stayed at in South Africa, 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.360 we had a very good anti poaching unit and it 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:51.840 was a smaller reserve. We knew where all of our 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:56.640 rhino were, so we concentrated our rangers there, so we 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:01.760 only lost one when I was there. Otherwise guys would 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:03.800 go to other reserves, so they knew like, hey, these 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.800 guys are here, they're switched on. Let's go find easier pickings. 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:13.399 M Yeah, what are these I mean, like how sophisticated 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:15.399 are these poachers? Like I heard you talk about like 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:18.359 sometimes they get inside information and stuff like that, or 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:22.120 like these are these pretty sophisticated teams of people going 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:22.760 and doing this? 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:24.760 Or is it or not so much? 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.439 Yeah, I mean the syndicates are very you know, you 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.280 might have instances where if they know someone works on 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:35.000 a reserve, whether you're a general, a worker, a mechanic, 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:38.679 a guide, or a ranger, you know, they might go 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.359 to the sabine at night that you drink out on 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.160 your off in the local village and just say, hey, 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.080 I'll give you three times your salary just to tell 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:50.560 me where the rhino are or you know, what's the 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:54.399 APU doing just for information because it's so lucrative. I 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.400 mean I checked rhino horn in the black market. Pernounce 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:03.679 is worth more than gold. Yeah, so you know, and 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.159 you get in those big, massive areas like you know, 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:10.240 Kruger National Park and the reserves that border Krueger. Those 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.679 are huge areas. So sometimes if an area has been 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:16.440 poached out, the you know, the scouts and the rangers, 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.720 they're not gonna waste their time there because the rhino 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.840 aren't there if they've got a serious poaching problem. So 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.239 I've seen it where the guys just use that to 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:30.480 walk through freely. And also sometimes that's where I had 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.680 my first like visual this is these are rhino poachers, 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:36.199 and then I spent the whole day chasing them. 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:42.640 Really, yeah, that's gotta be man. I mean, I'm assuming 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:45.760 these guys are armed. I mean obviously if they're shooting rhinos, 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:47.960 you know, So I mean, like that's gotta that. I mean, 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:50.800 it feels like it could get pretty sketchy at some points. 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:54.119 Yeah, but they don't really care about us. Once they 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.800 have the horn, they're they're good to go. They just 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.000 want to get out of there as fast as possible. 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:04.280 So my first ever visual like these are rhino poachers, okay, 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.359 it's on, was in this one area. We had just 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.440 spent eight days there. We're supposed to be there for ten, 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:12.919 but my team leader had to go on off. So 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:15.480 we did the rotation two days early. So I was 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.440 the scout, he was the team leader, and we'd get 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:22.480 water from the river. We would you know, use water, 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.320 sand to rub, to clean ourselves eating. We had the 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:27.400 anti track because these guys bring the area as well. 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:31.200 We spent eight days on the high point. Nothing was quiet, 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.480 you know, so okay, all right, So the night before 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.040 they're like, hey, we're gonna come pick you up tomorrow morning. 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:39.199 Go to the pickup point, which was this big tree, 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.240 and we'll see you there in the office the nooon. Okay. Cool. 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:47.520 So it was December fourteenth, fifteenth, twenty seventeen somewhere there. 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:50.800 So I'm walking if it's five o'clock in the morning, 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:54.080 but it's already like it's already like in the nineties, right, 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:56.800 and I can see the tree. It's close, and I'm like, okay, 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.440 all I'm thinking about is hot chow, a hot shower bed. 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.359 And then I just hear Impaula do a warning coal 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:07.159 and then I just instinctively see them and they're running 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:08.719 this way. So I looked to where they're running from, 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.119 and on the ridge was two guys, one with a 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.520 backpack and one head sound slung. Couldn't see the rifle, 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:16.640