1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,240 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 4 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: and we're back with part two of our discussion of 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: whether stories are bad for us. If you haven't heard 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: the first episode, you should probably go back and listen 7 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: to that. It's where we first discussed what got us 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: interested in this topic and general thoughts about ways that 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: though Robert, you and I we both love narratives, love stories, 10 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: love fiction, that stories might not always be great for 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: human civilization. Yeah, it's it's a it's a weird thing 12 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: to think about. But but then again, like part of 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: it is because I look back, especially on certain times 14 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: in my life where like a prize narrative above anything 15 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: that was happening in real life. You know, like a 16 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: great book was an escape. A fictional book, Yeah, great, 17 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: great fictional book was an escape. They were great. Unfiction 18 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: book can also be a tremendous escape too, But I 19 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: specifically remember escaping into into various novels, and it was 20 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: there was something so comforting about that. But then there's 21 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: a similar there's there's something similar occurring when we have 22 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: these negative examples of people escaping into narrative, though it 23 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: might not be the pure alternate narrative of say, life 24 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: on another planet or in an imagined age, but just 25 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,119 Speaker 1: a a different version of reality in which things are 26 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: simplified and made more story shaped, with more key with 27 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: with with clearer villains and heroes, and some sort of 28 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: of eventual come upance and uh and redemption. So we 29 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: should brief recap. In the last episode, we talked about 30 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: this idea that maybe stories aren't so great for us. 31 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: That we were inspired to talk about this because I 32 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: read a read an interview with a Duke University professor 33 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: and philosopher of science named Alex Rosenberg, who has written 34 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: a book about How How Well Number One, about how 35 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: we're wired to prefer stories over other types of receiving information, 36 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: and then also about how stories cloud our our views 37 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: of history and that a lot of times we don't 38 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: appreciate what actually happened in the past because we read 39 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,839 Speaker 1: a sort of personal narrative about history that has characters 40 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: with motivations, and we think we identify with those characters, 41 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: and we you know, we engage in theory of mind. 42 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: We put our brain inside their brain, and we think 43 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: we understand history in this way, but in fact it 44 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: just leads to a lot of misunderstanding and false certainty 45 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: about why things happened in the past, right, and then 46 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: sometimes about what's happening in the present and in the future. 47 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: Because he specifically points to the science of global warming 48 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: and how there's a tendency to to for for the 49 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: science of global warming to to lose out to the 50 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: narrative of global warming. And this wouldn't be an issue 51 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: if the narratives were closely aligned with the science, but 52 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: as we see can sadly continue to see, the problem 53 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: is that some of the narratives about global warming run 54 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: counter to what the science is telling us and have 55 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: a have a different agenda. Right. I mean, of course, 56 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: the clear scientific consensus is global warm warming is absolutely real. 57 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: It's going on right now. It's it is primarily driven 58 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: by human behavior, and that behavior is primarily the emission 59 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: of greenhouse gasses, and that if we want to do 60 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: something to stop it, we should stop the emission of 61 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 1: greenhouse gasses and maybe even at this point try to 62 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: find a way to remove them from the atmosphere, if 63 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: that's even possible. But you know, there there are lots 64 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: of very fun narratives that tell you something else, that 65 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: tell you it's a Chinese hoax, or that tell you, 66 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: you know, there's some evil cabal of globalists who want 67 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: to do X, Y and Z, and they're using this 68 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: scam to you know, I don't you know, keep up 69 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: with all what all that stuff is. But you know 70 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: where you can go to find it YouTube predominantly, Uh, 71 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: you know, but part of it. But a lot of 72 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: this is it's out, Rosenberg describes. You know, a lot 73 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: of it comes down to the fact that we're we're 74 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: using old tricks. Uh. These are basically sort of shortcuts 75 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: in our perception of reality and that all of you know, 76 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: the reality that we have is not like pure objective 77 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 1: reality like of course, you know, one of the like 78 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: fun little I'll go and go ahead and even call 79 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: it a mind blower that he drops in that ideas 80 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: with Paul Kennedy episode was that you know that that 81 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: we live in a world that doesn't actually have odors 82 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: or colors. That's just our sense world, that's our way, 83 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: that's the way that our our bodies in our minds, uh, 84 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: interpret the stimula. Yeah, there is actually light, and there 85 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: are actually volatile molecules, but the idea of color is 86 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: something that happens only in the brain. Right. We constantly 87 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: air in this perception of the world because it's adaptive. Uh. 88 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: And it's certainly not maladaptive, but you can see how 89 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: it stands in the way of a proper understanding of 90 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: objective reality. If it mattered, like if I don't know, 91 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: if some fantastic scenario presented itself, say there was an 92 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: alien invasion, that's generally a good one to go for, 93 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: and the key to defeating the aliens was a perception 94 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: of reality that did not, uh, did not rely on 95 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: an understanding of reality in which odors and colors exist. 96 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: You know, we're doomed. Yeah, we would. We would be 97 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: doomed because we have this this built in handicap that 98 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: has never been maladaptive up until now. And so one 99 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: of the things he's arguing is that is that storytelling 100 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: was adaptive early on, but then is perhaps increasingly maladaptive 101 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: as we as as civilization becomes more complicated. Oh yeah, 102 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: I mean, this is one of the clear things that 103 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: we've discovered through you know, the recent decades of psychology 104 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: and neuroscience focusing on bias and misperception. You know that 105 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: that's been been a key to to what we've learned 106 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: about the brain in the past few decades, is that 107 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: we we have just all kinds of ways of getting 108 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: reality wrong, and a lot of this is based on heuristics, 109 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: you know, simple, quick, fast, dirty rules that the mind 110 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: uses to try to come up with an answer without 111 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: doing too much work. And in fact, you can more 112 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: often get a more accurate answer by using a slow, 113 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: laborious mechanical process of figuring out what's true. But usually 114 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense to do that in real life 115 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: because you just don't have the time and the energy. 116 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: So we use heuristics and we get maybe sometimes roughly 117 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: right answers, maybe sometimes really wrong answers, but in most 118 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: scenarios it doesn't matter enough for us to actually change 119 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: our behavior. And story based thinking about reality, I think, 120 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: is one of these heuristics. Yeah, you know, one one 121 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: thing that came to my mind was how like some 122 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: of my earliest memories, some of them are definitely memories, 123 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: but other things are not so much memories, but me 124 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: remembering stories about something that happened when I was very young. 125 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: And those become a sort of memory. They become a 126 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: kind of false memory of something that that happened. But 127 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: to what degree it happened, like the story, I'm not sure, 128 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: because we do this all the time right where we 129 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: take we oftentimes will take an external story or just 130 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: like the general shape of a story, use that to 131 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: interpret something that happened to us, and then that becomes 132 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: the memory. We are remembering the story that we came 133 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: up with about the thing that happened, as opposed to 134 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: any anything like a purely objective understanding of what occurred. Right, 135 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: And so a classic example of this that I was 136 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: just thinking about is when you sort events into a 137 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: structure of rising tension. You know, it's how like you 138 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: could you could, like take a number of events that 139 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: happened over a course of different days or even different weeks, 140 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: and we're really not all that related. But you're telling 141 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: a story maybe about how you started, you know, why 142 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: you're feeling down right now, and you you introduce like 143 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: one thing that went wrong and then another thing that 144 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: went wrong at a different time, and you you escale 145 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: the tension on the story like you would if you're 146 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: showing the increasingly dangerous obstacles that a hero almost face 147 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: in their journey. Right, Sometimes the things that we pick 148 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: out to put into that story to be like the 149 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: set pieces of the story might not be the real 150 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: causes and effects of what we're trying to explain with 151 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: the story. Why you're actually feeling down now, You don't 152 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: necessarily know why you're feeling down now. Yeah, there are 153 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: a number of reasons we've discussed in the show that 154 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: that are not related to um so much to something 155 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: going on in the mind, that's something going on and 156 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: say with your gut, bacteria, etcetera. And of course we've 157 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: also discussed on the show how even an outright lie 158 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: can impact how we think about something. Um uh, you know, 159 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: and something that's not even presented as a possible truth, 160 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: if we hear it enough times, it can become part 161 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: of our understanding of reality. Yeah, the illusory truth effect. 162 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: You hear something enough, you start to kind of think 163 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: it's true, even if you should know better. And so 164 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: like that situation as well, is just this sort of 165 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: holding our life up to other examples, be it little 166 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: biographies or myths or motion pictures that we've seen. Um. 167 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: It reminds me a bit of something that's discussed in 168 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: Mercelles Eliades The Myth of the Eternal Return or Cosmos 169 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: in History, the book I've I've talked about on the 170 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: show before. It's kind of a you know, an important 171 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: text in religious studies, and in this the author discusses 172 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: how humans uh would have situated themselves within cyclical time. Uh. 173 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 1: The idea here being that that ancient people thought of 174 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: time is more as cyclical as opposed to linear, not 175 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: something that has a beginning and an end that ultimately 176 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: follows sort of the the ups and downs of a 177 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: narrative plot, but is more of just a continual cycle. 178 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: I guess more like a sitcom in that respect, right, Uh, 179 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: as a as sitcom rather than blockbuster. And so the 180 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: idea here is that ancient people would have viewed time 181 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: as cyclical and that all important acts in life were 182 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: ultimately things that were revealed by the gods, and that 183 00:09:54,679 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: all humans did was engaged in acts and rituals of repetition. So, 184 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: I don't know, there's something that might define you in life, 185 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: like say, something that is associated with with being a parent, 186 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: or being a warrior, or being a uh, you know, 187 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: a craftsman and artisan. What have you like these things 188 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: are only important because a god did them or some 189 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: sort of divine figure did them, and then you were 190 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: just repeating those things. Um a quote from the book 191 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: An object or act becomes real only in so far 192 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: as it imitates or repeats an archetype. But then again, 193 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: the move to linear time or one way time allows 194 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: for a different sort of narrative structure to emerge um 195 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: and to take root in life, myth and religion, tales 196 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: of fall and ultimately redemption and ultimate justice. Yeah. And 197 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: this is, in in Lad's estimation, negative in that it 198 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: allows for the terror of history, the realization that we 199 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: keep falling and failing and suffering not because of divine 200 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: acts or something set in motion by the gods for repetition, 201 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: but because of our own failings. So we've abandoned mythical thought, 202 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: he argues, and are confronted with this modern terror, these 203 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: modern anxieties because of this way that we view time 204 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: and and ultimately kind of place it in a narrative 205 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: structure in our understanding of what has come before does 206 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: color what comes comes comes later. I mean, the whole 207 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: go back to the idea of you know, those who 208 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: who who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Um 209 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: also reminds me of quote from soreign h Crcy Guard 210 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 1: from repetition, and I actually I encountered this quote for 211 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: the first time in the intro to uh Alan robe 212 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: Gerlay's novel Repetition. But it goes like this, repetition and 213 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: recollection are the same movement, only in opposite directions. For 214 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: what is recollected has been it is repeated backwards, whereas repetition, 215 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: properly so called, is recollected forward. Well, that does tend 216 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: to suggest, I mean, another way of thinking about the 217 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: possible effects of narrative on our lives is that if 218 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: you tell a certain kind of story about yourself, do 219 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: you make it more likely that you do a similar 220 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: kind of story in the future. Right? Is it a 221 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: story about what I was or who I am or 222 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: who I will be? And I didn't think that can 223 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: be instructive to a certain extent, Right, Like I am 224 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: a good person, I am a moral person, and therefore 225 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: I have acted morally and I will act morally. That 226 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: sort of thing. But another thing that I think is 227 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: really important about the psychology of storytelling is just the 228 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: power that stories now when you're not even talking about 229 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: self narrative. You're just talking about narrative, external narratives, fictional stories, 230 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: narratives like we were talking about with global warming. Uh, 231 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: somebody wants to tell a story about an evil conspiracy 232 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: to push this hoax on people. That kind of story 233 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: can be incredibly persuasive and powerful. Stories have the power 234 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: to persuade for good and evil, And this can be 235 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: a really frightening power because they often seem so much 236 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: more persuasive than good evidence. Like if you're a lawyer, 237 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a truism among lawyers, right that if 238 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: you if you're doing a court case and the evidence 239 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: is against you, if you tell a good enough story, 240 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: you still might win the jury over that. Often, like 241 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: presenting a case to a jury is about telling a 242 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: believable story, and how believable the story is might not 243 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: always correlate to how good the evidence is. And so 244 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: there's plenty of evidence that stories have persuasive power that 245 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: you know that they A lot of this is applied 246 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: like within the business world. You know, you've probably seen 247 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: people doing business presentations or giving ted talks or something 248 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: like that, and they go up and the first thing 249 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: they do is they tell a story. I want to 250 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: tell you a story about a young man who had 251 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: a dream, and that man was me. And you know, 252 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: but they tell you a story and it's got a 253 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: narrative arc, it's got obstacles that the character must face. 254 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: They've got desires, they've got emotions. You you seek to 255 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: have emotional engagement between the audience and the character, and 256 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: that supposedly helps people pay more attention to what you're 257 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: talking about. It helps people retain more information from what 258 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: you said, and it helps you persuade people to your 259 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: point of view, which I guess is all contingent on, 260 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: you know, whether the ultimate point of what you're saying 261 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: is good or not. I mean, you can use this 262 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: for good and you can use it for quite evil purposes. Yeah. 263 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: For instance, on the idea of narrative for good, we 264 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: we've touched on some of the positives of telling stories already, 265 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: but you know, it's worth noting that narrative is sometimes 266 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: part of, you know, of an actual like clinical healing practice, 267 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: such as narrative expressive writing. For instance of May two 268 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: thousand seventeen study in Psychosomatic Medicine, Journal of Bio Behavioral 269 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: Medicine found that the writing about their emotions and creating 270 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: a meaningful narrative of their experience UH may reduce the 271 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: harmful cardiovascular effects of stress related to marital separation and patients. UM. 272 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: But you know, more specifically, like just the idea that 273 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: engaging and narrative can be used in but they're they're 274 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: apew process UM. I also ran across some notes on 275 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: the pros and cons of storytelling from Ethics of Storytelling, Narrative, Hermoneutics, 276 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: History and the Possible by Hannah Maritosa, Professor of Comparative 277 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: Literature at the University of Turku in Finland, and she 278 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: points out that the narrative gives us a sense of 279 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: what is possible within a culture and what could be possible, 280 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: and this is all good. You know, we see empowering 281 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: stories and we think that could be me, or you know, 282 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: I can do something like that. You know, I'm maybe 283 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: I'm not going to go and engage in a boxing match, 284 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: but this boxing movie has shown me that if I 285 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: have the eye of the tiger, then nothing can UM. 286 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: And then also it shapes what we think a good 287 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: life is, what gender norms are, what success is, and 288 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: this can be positive or negative. I mean, it really 289 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: can run run run the gamut here. Yeah, I think 290 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: we tend to. Some research shows that we tend to 291 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: identify with characters in narrow It is much the same 292 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: way we would end up identifying with people in the world. 293 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: And you know, when you see people in the world 294 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: acting a certain way, their values can be contagious, their 295 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: cultural values, their moral values. And I think the same 296 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: can be true and narrative absolutely. She She also points 297 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: to the Nazi regime is giving us a good example 298 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: of what can happen when a strong narrative is developed 299 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: to embolden one people but at the expense of others. 300 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: Nazism was a story. It was a storytelling exercise, you know. 301 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: It was telling a story about a great people, you know, 302 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: who who had once been great and who were now 303 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: being attacked by a conspiracy and parasitized by people who 304 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: were unworthy, and that they would rise from this and 305 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: become great once again. It was, in a way, it 306 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: was kind of like a catastrophic reboot project of a culture. 307 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: Yeah you know, um, yeah sou but also attempting to 308 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: achieve what they this story, they this mythology they had 309 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: about past greatness exactly. Yeah, But speaking of the Nazis, 310 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: she also points out that we have to be careful 311 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: not to demonize evil doers too much in our narrative 312 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: understanding of past horrors in order to quote properly engage 313 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: with the conditions that made the atrocities possible. Well, this 314 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: is getting back to Alex Rosenberg, right, I mean like that, 315 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: often thinking of history as a narrative and seeing you know, 316 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: villains and heroes and stuff in history causes us to 317 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: fail to appreciate some material conditions that brought brought about events. 318 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: You know, when you think about history as stories of 319 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: characters who succeed against all odds, all that and all that, 320 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: and you and you get into that, you you engage 321 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,479 Speaker 1: in theory of mind and you think about what they 322 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: were thinking. You stop thinking about what the price of 323 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: bread was this week and how that influenced what was 324 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: possible within a polity. Absolutely, and you know, with with 325 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: the Nazis particularly, you know, it's interesting to look at 326 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: your cinema, right and and certainly we have we have 327 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: so many examples, even very entertaining examples of just like 328 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: pure storybook Nazis, the rates of the Lost Ark is 329 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: a great example of this, Like the Nazis are just 330 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: straight up cardboard villains, and within the context of Raiders 331 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: the Lost Art, it's arguably okay. But then how do 332 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: you treat characters like this in other works, because you 333 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, to to her point here, you want to 334 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: make sure that there is that human element there, that 335 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: people are realizing that these are not demons, these are 336 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: people and therefore their errors are our potential errors. Yes, 337 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: I think that's very important to see them as people 338 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: so you can realize, like this could happen again, other 339 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: people could become like this, Right, So, like, say you 340 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: look at a character, say like Joseph Mangela, and you 341 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: want to be able to say he was not a monster. 342 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: He you know, not an inhuman monster. He was a 343 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: human who did monstrous things. And let's look at how 344 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: that came to be. Um, you know, how as not 345 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: to create more of them? Right? But then but then 346 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: also I guess you do kind of run the risk 347 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 1: of like making the characters like this to relate, Like 348 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 1: you don't want to make them too sympathetic either, right, well, right, 349 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: I mean you don't want to make it'm like, hey, 350 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: you know, wouldn't be so bad to be like, you 351 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: don't want to lose the object lessons the experience. So yeah, 352 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: I think that's just one example of how how complicated 353 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: choosing the form of narrative to place over history or individuals, 354 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: how how problematic it can be, even with something that 355 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: is relatively straightforward, by making sure that mass murderers and 356 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: uh and you know, xenophobic individuals are are properly vilified, 357 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: but vilified to the appropriate degree and in specifically the 358 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: appropriate way. I mean, yes, uh yeah. Coming up with 359 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: stories is it's a it's a task on which you 360 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 1: have great responsibility on your shoulders, and people take it 361 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: so lightly. I mean, you notice the almost it's almost 362 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 1: like the level of responsibility goes exactly backwards. I tend 363 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: to notice when people are talking about history in terms 364 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: of uh, you know, minute fact matter about history, the 365 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: you know, the weekly price of bread and a place 366 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: throughout history, that they tend to exercise a lot more 367 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: caution than people who are talking about history in a 368 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: way that tells a narrative story. I mean, I guess 369 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: you're always going to have people doing both, but it 370 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: seems like the person who's putting together a narrative that 371 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: reads like a story with characters. They should be exercising 372 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: ten times as much caution as the person just collecting, 373 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: you know, factual minutia about history. We've got it exactly backwards. 374 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: The way people sling narratives about history is sometimes just breathtaking. Yeah. 375 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: Like one example, not not not to discuss this film 376 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: in too much detail, but uh, the the adaptation of 377 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: three hundred Oh yeah, well, I mean I was thinking 378 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: more about just like you know, the dude shooting his 379 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,719 Speaker 1: mouth off about what the Nazis were really about, you know. 380 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: But but but what you're saying is correct to like 381 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: that's a film that is I don't know, there's like 382 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: three different ways of looking at it. I guess like 383 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: like one is that like this is clearly a case 384 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: where you took a you took an historical, uh military engagement, 385 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: and then you just made one side like the opra 386 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: ultra masculine heroes, and the other side you made into 387 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: like actual mutated debas demons, and then and then said 388 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: that they were the Persians, you know, an entire culture 389 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: and entire people, and that there is a that that's 390 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: inherently reckless to do that, and then it's I've seen 391 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: it defended by saying, well, the whole story is as 392 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 1: told by this individual, and therefore it's supposed to be 393 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: because it's ultimately about the distortions of storytelling. I don't 394 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: know to what extent that truly holds up. I mean, 395 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: I can see the role for that kind of story 396 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: that's told by an unreliable narrator, but I don't remember 397 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 1: that really coming through. I don't think I don't remember 398 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: that either. I remember at the time initially kind of 399 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: like naively experiencing it. I think the same way that 400 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: it was perhaps intended, like here's just a crazy story 401 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: where we made history more like Lord of the Rings, 402 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: you know, and a goblins and demons and oh that's 403 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: that and muscles and and and muscle abs for miles. 404 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: I significantly doubt that I would have that same experience today. 405 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: I think I would feel very conflicted about it. I mean, 406 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: in a way, it's I feel it's going to be 407 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: hard to go through life not spinning occasionally, at least 408 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: spinning tidy, bold narratives about history that you have not 409 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 1: really properly thought through the implications of, because that's that's 410 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: just how we tend to think about past events, and 411 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: we get caught up in story, We get caught up 412 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: in the power of narrative. I was just thinking, I've 413 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: probably sort of even though I've been trying to be careful, 414 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: I've probably sort of done that today already. I mean, so, 415 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: I try not to create heroes and villains unnecessarily. But 416 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: one of the problems with creating heroes and villains in 417 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: h in history is especially like when you go try 418 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 1: to create a hero in history, is you almost inevitably 419 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: find out stuff that like complicates your your idea of 420 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 1: them as a hero, like, oh, this was the good 421 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: guy at some point in his story, and then you 422 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: read into their biography and it's like, oh, yeah, I 423 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: did some stuff that you wouldn't you wouldn't write a 424 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: hero doing. And your standard uncomplicated adventure movie right or 425 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: just in the like looking up the personal getting to 426 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 1: too acquainted with the personal history of say contemporary heroes. Yeah, 427 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: we're like, oh, I really like this particular artist or 428 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: actor or a musician. You're doomed. Don't look it up 429 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: like you're you're ultimately it seems like you're sometimes it 430 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: seems like often your best hope is that they just 431 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: don't have a lot out there about their all right, 432 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: well let's take a break. When we come back, we 433 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: will dive deeper into the world of narrative. Thank thank you, 434 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: thank you. All Right, we're back. So I wanted to 435 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: look at a bit at the idea of narrative and neuroscience. 436 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: There's all kinds of evidence that the brain is fundamentally 437 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: oriented towards producing stories, consuming stories, seeing the world in 438 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 1: terms of stories. Stories appear to have a kind of 439 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: special purchase on our neurological architect Sure, So I just 440 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: wanted to mention a few weird findings about how narratives 441 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: work in the human brain. And so one thing I 442 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: came across is the work of the Princeton University psychologist 443 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 1: and neuroscientist Uri Hassan. And so Hassan has carried out 444 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: brain imaging research to see exactly what happens in the 445 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: human brain when we're engaged in various forms of communication. 446 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: So he studies communication broadly, but one of those types 447 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 1: of communications that he's studied is what happens when we're 448 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: being told a story, like a personal narrative, or even 449 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: like a like a fictional story like an episode of 450 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: a TV show. So repeatedly, Hassan has found through f 451 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: m R I that when people engage in successful verbal 452 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: communication with one another, their brain activity tends to be 453 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: to become physically aligned or coupled, meaning records of the 454 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: physical activity of their brains show similarities or complementarity across 455 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: space and time. So, like your brain image to people 456 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: who are having a conversation, and you will see this 457 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: interesting kind of brain activity ping pong where their their 458 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: brains are almost sort of locked in sync and reacting 459 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: and kind interesting, revealing that the relationship between storyteller and 460 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,719 Speaker 1: the listener is more of a like a melding of 461 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: minds in the same way to say, like people singing 462 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: together engaging in a ritual, they're also kind of like 463 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: melding their their mental states. Yeah. Absolutely, So Hassen has 464 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 1: argued that communication in general is quote a single act 465 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: performed by two brains. I like that, but yeah, what 466 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: so what happens when that communication takes the form of 467 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: a story? Uh? And so I was reading an article 468 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: where where Hassan himself writes about his research on this. Uh. 469 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: So he wrote, quote, in one experiment, we brought people 470 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: to the f m r I scanner and scanned their 471 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: brains while they were either telling or listening to real 472 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: life stories. We started by comparing the similarity of neural 473 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: responses across different steners in their auditory cortices, the part 474 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: of the brain that processes the sounds coming from the ear. 475 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: When we looked at the responses before the experiment started, 476 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: while our five listeners were at rest waiting for the 477 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: storyteller to begin, we saw the responses were very different 478 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: from each other and not in sync. And Robert, I've 479 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 1: attached some images for you to see here. Uh, he continues. However, 480 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: immediately as the story started, we saw something amazing happen. 481 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: Suddenly we saw the neural responses in all of the 482 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: subjects begin to lock together and go up and down 483 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: in a similar way. So you're seeing this synchronization of 484 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: physical records of brain activity as the story starts. Now, 485 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: when people's different brain responses become synchronized or locked in 486 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,959 Speaker 1: response to speech like I was talking about, that, this 487 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: is known as neural entrainment. In what Hassen's research found 488 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: is that you could in train some parts of the 489 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: brain without a coherent story So if you just play 490 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: the audio of the story backwards and they did that 491 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: to try to produce many of the same sounds as 492 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: the story, but without any of the meaning, it entrains 493 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: the auditory cortices, but nothing else. So that's just you know, 494 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: the part for detecting sound. I'm just listening to noise. 495 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: And then when you play whole words but scramble them 496 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: out of order, this entrains the auditory cortices and the 497 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: quote early language areas, but nothing else. Then when you 498 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: play whole sentences that makes sense individually but don't form 499 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: a coherent narrative, you get entrainment in the previous areas 500 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: plus areas associated with processing language and grammar, but nothing else. 501 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 1: But then finally, when you actually play a story that 502 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: has narrative coherence, that has an arc, where you're actually 503 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: telling a coherent story, you get similarities and alignments across 504 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: listeners in areas of higher brain function like the frontal 505 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: cortex and the parietal cortex. And as much as like Robert, 506 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: you and I often talk about the particular powers of 507 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,719 Speaker 1: languages and how things can be lost in translation, it 508 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: turns out that some important neurologically salient features of stories 509 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: are generally not lost in translation. So Hassan has also 510 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: been involved in research that shows that if you take 511 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: a real life story originally from a Russian speaker and 512 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: you translate it into English and the authors specified quote 513 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: we tried to preserve the content of the narrative while 514 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: reducing the structural similarities across languages unquote uh. They found 515 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: that Russian speakers and English speakers also show aligned patterns 516 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: of brain activation when listening to the story quote, beginning 517 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: just outside early auditory areas and extending through temporal, parietal, 518 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: and frontal cerebral cortices. So this means that it doesn't 519 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: have anything to do with people sitting in a room 520 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: listening to English. You take a story in one language, 521 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: translate it to a different language, and play it to 522 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: people in those different languages, and you will still see 523 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: this strange brain imaging alignment. So it's like we can 524 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: pick up on the shape of story even if the 525 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: the the the actual language is the one we don't 526 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: we don't understand, yes, and so this research gets even weirder. 527 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: So Hassan and colleagues have done if F M R 528 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: I scanning on people watching TV shows like the BBC's Sherlock. 529 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: Did you watch someone, Robert, I've watched a few episodes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 530 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: so uh you know it's it can be pretty engrossing. 531 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: So they had people watched Sherlock while getting brain scan, 532 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: and they later scanned subjects in a dark room retelling 533 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: the story of what they had watched out loud. Then 534 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: later they played back a recording of one of those 535 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: subjects describing the story from the Sherlock episode to someone 536 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: who hadn't seen the shows. And this was pretty interesting. 537 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: People in all three scenarios showed some alignment of higher 538 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: order brain function that played out in similar ways seen 539 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: by scene. Despite the fact that these three different that 540 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: they were doing these three totally different sensory tasks. Watching 541 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: a TV show, remin remembering a show you've already watched, 542 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: and then listening to somebody described the plot of a 543 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: TV show to you, you'd still get, like when somebody 544 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: describes a particular scene in the show, you'd get some 545 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: alignment of brain activity that's similar to what happens when 546 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: people watch that scene. And I think this cross media 547 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: alignment suggests that brain activity can be aligned by the 548 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: content of the story itself, that it doesn't necessarily depend 549 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: on whether you're watching with your eyes or listening or remembering. 550 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: The brain seems to be, at least at some level 551 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: responding strongly to stories as stories. And this makes me 552 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: think back to the idea of the story of narrative 553 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: is being like just a basic survival adaptation, like the 554 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: ability to to convene with other members of say your tribe, 555 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: and and get info, get intel about what is happening 556 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: in the immediate surroundings or in what may happen. Well, yeah, 557 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: it seems like stories they like they suddenly they justness 558 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: our attention and we lock into them. And it's almost 559 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: as if the brain has sort of built in story 560 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: recognition functions that work different than just receiving verbal information 561 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: of any other kind or watching somebody do something. If 562 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: there's a character I to identify with and they're facing 563 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: a plot, then something happens. All right, we're gonna take 564 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: a quick break, but we'll be right back. Thank alright, 565 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: We're back all right now. When thinking about neurochemistry and 566 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: and how stories work in the brain, one of the 567 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: things that comes up the most on Internet searches about 568 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: this is we're coming out of the lab of the 569 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: neuroeconomist Paul J. Zach about narrative experience, attention, empathy, and UH, 570 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: specifically the hormone oxytocin. Now, oxytocin, unfortunately is one of 571 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: those uh, one of those things. I think I mentioned 572 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: this in the last episode where sometimes a story about 573 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: neuroscience or a story about neurochemistry can become radically over 574 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: simplified and misrepresented, especially in the popular press. You may 575 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: have seen articles using the you know, the dreaded nicknames, 576 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: the love drug, the cuttle chemical, the moral molecule. It 577 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: turns out the truth about this, uh, this hormone is 578 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: is much more complicated. There's still so much about it 579 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: we don't even know yet. It's a complicated story of 580 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: what it's doing in our brains and in our bodies. 581 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: But it did want to at least take a look 582 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: at this angle since there's a lot of stuff out 583 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: about it, a lot of stuff out there about it 584 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: in in in science media. So what do we know 585 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: about oxytocin from existing research? First of all, it's a 586 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: molecule that's synthesized in the hypothalamus and mammal brains that 587 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: has both physiological and psychological effects. Oxytocin levels can be 588 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: sampled in the blood. It does it's produced in the brain, 589 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: but it does get into the bloodstream or by matt 590 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: measuring patterns of stimulation in the vagus nerve. Classically, it's 591 00:32:54,840 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: associated with pregnancy, childbirth, and nursing, contributing to physiological coal 592 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: effects such as uterine contractions before birth and the milk 593 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: ejection reflects during nursing. It's also highly associated with mother 594 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: infant bonding. But the effects do appear to go beyond this, 595 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,959 Speaker 1: and this is where we get into some of the 596 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: the more difficult territory. It does appear to play a 597 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: vast and complicated role in human social behavior. Uh. Some 598 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: of the earliest research on its social effects where that 599 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: oxytocin is important in establishing trust and cooperation between humans. 600 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: We appear to experience elevated levels of oxytocin when someone 601 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: shows us that they trust us, or when somebody does 602 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: something kind for us. And these findings really shaped a 603 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: lot of what people thought about oxytocin in the past 604 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: twenty years. Yeah, but kind of it kind of big 605 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: takes on this roll of like this kind of magical 606 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: elixir wine that your body kind of squirts out when 607 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: it's doing things that are aligned properly with sort of 608 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: you know, reproductive child rearing or social health. Yeah, exactly 609 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,479 Speaker 1: got this reputation of being you know, quote the moral 610 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: molecule or something that or something that even could be 611 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: given to people in doses that would make them more 612 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: moral or something like that. And it turns out the 613 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: truth is much much more complicated than that. Right. But 614 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: but of course we see why that narrative is is 615 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: so appealing, right, I mean, Lord's got a hero, a hero, 616 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: and we love a good narrative that involves, you know, 617 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: a pill based solution to something, or in this case, 618 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: I think it would be a nasal injection spray solution. 619 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: This is even better than a pill. I do love 620 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 1: a good nasal nasal injection solution in a narrative. Though. 621 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: I think actually the last thing I read about that 622 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: was that there's actually some question about the extent to 623 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: which nasal spray dosings of oxytocin really even take effect 624 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: within the body, but they're used in a lot of studies. 625 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: So uh. But anyway, this guy who's been behind a 626 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 1: lot of the love drug moral molecule vision of oxytocin. 627 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: Is this neuroeconomist Paul Zach who's who's written on this 628 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: subject a lot, and so his name pops up a 629 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: lot when you read about story to helling and the 630 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: brain and neurochemistry, and he has done some research on this, 631 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: like he's been involved in or at least him and 632 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: his colleagues and his lab have been involved in research 633 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:15,240 Speaker 1: about UH, say, subjecting people to narratives and testing blood 634 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,760 Speaker 1: oxytocin levels before and after they've they've experienced these narratives. 635 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: And what they claim to find is that when you 636 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: watch a story that's got a narrative arc, classic example 637 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: is like a story of a father talking about his 638 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 1: son who's dying of cancer and and how to relate 639 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: to his son, and it like it has building tension 640 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: and gets to a climax and then he overcomes his problems. 641 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: Narratives like this increase our blood oxytocin levels, and this 642 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: indicates that narratives cause oxytocin synthesis within the brain. And 643 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: then he links this to all these ideas showing UH 644 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,879 Speaker 1: that oxytocin leads to cooperation, causes people to donate more 645 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: money to charities, and and all these things like that, 646 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: so and so, the general thrust is that narrative can 647 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: be used to trigger these neurochemical reactions that cause us 648 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: to experience more generosity, to experience more cooperation, to be 649 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: more charitable, to trust more, to give of ourselves, and 650 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: that this happens naturally when we experience stories and and 651 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: he frames this motivation to take a pro social, cooperative, 652 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: self sacrificing action after a narrative. But I remember, after 653 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: reading about some of this research, assuming the research holds 654 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: up and this as we've been saying this, Uh, some 655 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: of this research has had plenty of critics, especially in 656 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: how it's interpreted. But you know, I also started to 657 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: wonder if the inverse would be true, Like if it 658 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: is true that watching stories tends to cause these neurochemical 659 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: cascades that uh, that do in fact make us more 660 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: likely to cooperate or something. Would higher levels of oxytocin 661 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: after watching a narrative also make you more motivated to 662 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: go beat someone up if the story implied that you should. 663 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, but I wonder, I mean, you could 664 00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: I can imagine what it would be the case if 665 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: you had if you had a work of say, cinema 666 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: that is ultimately inciting violence against some group, or clearly 667 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,720 Speaker 1: there have been there have been films of this caliber 668 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: exactly right now. This guy writes also a lot about 669 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: like their particular details he identifies as being most important, 670 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: and narratives that are salient and the that are neurologically salient, 671 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: including having rising tensions. So like there's a dramatic arc 672 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: where things keep getting you know, there's maybe a mystery 673 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: or there's a problem to face, and the tension keeps 674 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: getting ratcheted up and up. I'd say this correlates with 675 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: conventional wisdom about what good good storytelling is, like you've 676 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: got to keep escalating the tension. Yet I do think 677 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: it's fascinating that, like we know some of these things 678 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: about storytelling, and yet so many professionally told stories are 679 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: still so bad and like do not engage the audience 680 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: emotionally at all, and do not escalate tension this way, 681 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: Like so many movies are just awful stories, and yet 682 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,240 Speaker 1: the recipe is pretty simple. Yeah, I mean, it's sometimes 683 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 1: just like a simple story of the simple story, the 684 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: nice like trope filled story is just told semi adequately 685 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: at the heart of a film. It can make all 686 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: the difference, be it be it like a really stylish 687 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: film or a film like even like a b film 688 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: like some of the a lot of the films that 689 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: the you and I go for, like whether it is 690 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 1: watchable or not, well, whether you know it's it's just 691 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: it's at all. You know, a film you can engage 692 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 1: with a lot of it hinges on there just being 693 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: sort of a basic story structure that is in place, 694 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: and of course many films managed to trip that up. 695 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: But but but yeah, as long as there's like the 696 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,839 Speaker 1: basic story there, you can you can forgive so much. 697 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: There was a little turtle named Edna, and every day 698 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:48,919 Speaker 1: Edna swam out to the middle of the pond where 699 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 1: she lived and met her friend, uh, the turtle ed. 700 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 1: But one day she swam out to the middle of 701 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: the pond and ed was not there. Where did ed go? 702 00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 1: You got a mystery. I don't want to brag, but 703 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: I think I've already created more narrative tension than like 704 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:08,760 Speaker 1: than half of the action movies that exist. Yeah, but anyway, 705 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: coming back to this and and and questioning some of 706 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,399 Speaker 1: what we've been talking about. So from what I've read, 707 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: Zach repeatedly stresses in public speeches and popular articles all 708 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 1: the good things about this, I mean, assuming that this 709 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: research is somewhat valid, that there are these links between 710 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, oxytocin synthesis in the brain and engaging in 711 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: narratives that escalate tension and make you identify with the characters. 712 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: If there is something to that, he he stresses, this 713 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: is a good thing, that it fosters cooperation and trust 714 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: and compassion and charity and all that. But as we 715 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, it's really worth noting that some of this 716 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: public messaging that's been going on about oxytocin has been 717 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: criticized for oversimplifying the role of oxytocin and human life, 718 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: especially in focusing too much or too exclusively on its 719 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: role in positive emotions and pro social behaviors, and for 720 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,280 Speaker 1: overstating what the research allows us to conclude at this point. 721 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: Just one quick example, one of my favorite science writers, 722 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: d Young, wrote at least a couple of really good 723 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: articles on this subject, including one in the Atlantic, and 724 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: and he points out that a more powerful emerging theory 725 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: of the role of oxytocin in the brain that we 726 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: still don't know a whole lot about it is that 727 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: it increases the salience of social information. So it's not 728 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: necessarily that it makes us trust or makes us love, 729 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 1: or makes us cooperate. It increases our attention in response 730 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: to inputs that are socially relevant. Uh. And this might 731 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: seem to cash out the fact that it has been 732 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: linked to trust and all these other things, but it's 733 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: also been linked to phenomena like outgroup prejudice, willingness to 734 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:49,320 Speaker 1: be dishonest if it would protect the in group, schaden freud, envy, 735 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,839 Speaker 1: boasting or boasting or gloating, I mean, all these things 736 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: that we don't think of as very good positive social 737 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: emotions or behaviors. Yeah, I guess one of the things 738 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,280 Speaker 1: that keep him mind is that I think it's true 739 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: you can you can take a read on on the 740 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 1: human experience that we are chemicals and uh and a 741 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,399 Speaker 1: lot of what we do is governed by by chemical reactions. Right, 742 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: But it's not just one chemical and it's not just 743 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: one chemical reaction. Well, even when you focus on one chemical, 744 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 1: it turns out that this one chemical has an extremely 745 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,760 Speaker 1: strange range of effects that are probably highly context dependent. 746 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,280 Speaker 1: You know. Earlier and I think in the last episode, 747 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: we were talking about the importance of context on when 748 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: a story matters and and what its effects are. Context 749 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: is probably very important on what the actual effects of 750 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 1: oxytocina are. Again, I don't want to overstate what we 751 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 1: know now about about this hormone. But if it is 752 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: something like uh, like a neurochemical that increases the salience 753 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: and increases our openness to and attention to socially relevant 754 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: incoming information, that could be very good or very bad. Right. 755 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 1: It might help you pick up on cues that that 756 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: allows you to cooperate with somebody, but it also might 757 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 1: make you more socially paranoid and vulnerable to bullying and 758 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,399 Speaker 1: afraid that people hate you because of little signals you're 759 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: picking up on. And that's just with this provisional idea 760 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,720 Speaker 1: that that's what it does. Ultimately, we don't know everything 761 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 1: about what oxytocin does yet, so it is not just 762 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 1: a love drug. It's not a cuddle chemical. Instead, it 763 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 1: seems that it's it's a hormone related to a suite 764 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,840 Speaker 1: of powerful socially salient emotions and motivations, So we should 765 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: definitely blast it up our noses. This was saying, well, 766 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's great for research to continue, 767 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 1: but don't conclude that, you know, you go out and 768 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 1: dose all the dictators with with a nasal spray and 769 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,719 Speaker 1: will cure all the world's ills. I absolutely think we 770 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 1: should do solve the dictators of the world with a 771 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: nasal spray, but we just have different thoughts about what 772 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: is the appropriate substance. So given all those massive caveats, 773 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:50,839 Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure what to make of this last 774 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,840 Speaker 1: line of evidence here. But if it is true that 775 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: narratives increase levels of body oxytocin, and if it is 776 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: true that knoxy that oxytocin increases the salience of socially 777 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,840 Speaker 1: relevant information, you can see how that would give narrative 778 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: a lot of power as well. Essentially, it opens you 779 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: up to being socially receptive to ideas and behaviors, to 780 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: to trigger motivations for action, not necessarily good ones, so 781 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: maybe they could be good. I think it does bring 782 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 1: us to you know, helps to just drive on the 783 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: point that that narrative is something that's deeply ingrained in 784 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 1: how we think, how we behave, and what it is 785 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 1: to be human. UH. To to go back to one 786 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:32,080 Speaker 1: of the UH the the experts that we mentioned in 787 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: the first episode episode Carol McGranahan, I she I believe 788 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 1: argues that that essentially, like our species is something like 789 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: homo narrative or something to that effect, like that that 790 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: that that's how like just ingrained in this this this 791 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 1: need for narratives and this desire to to think about 792 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:56,400 Speaker 1: narratives truly is we're Homo ds X mocking us. But 793 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 1: you know, at the same time, it's kind of like 794 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,480 Speaker 1: language in that like if you try to imagine a 795 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: human without language, if you engage in in the denial 796 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: of language, you're talking about a severe abuse, or at 797 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 1: least a severe negligence. And therefore, to to to deprive 798 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: someone of of stories of narrative like it's it is 799 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,920 Speaker 1: equal parts unimaginable and monstrous, Like you would have to 800 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,919 Speaker 1: be like a diabolical, uh, you know, experiment in which 801 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 1: you've denied somebody that this basis of understanding the world. Yeah, 802 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right, and I don't know what 803 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,800 Speaker 1: to do about this knowledge. I mean, I feel fairly 804 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: convinced that Rosenberg is correct that narratives cloud our understanding 805 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,840 Speaker 1: of history, and I guess necessary necessarily of the present 806 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: as well. Essentially, thinking of things in terms of stories 807 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,320 Speaker 1: prevents us from understanding what's really happening with causes and 808 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: effects and reality. I think that's absolutely correct. He's right 809 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: about that. And yet I don't know what to do 810 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:57,719 Speaker 1: about it, because I don't think we can we can 811 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 1: beat story impulses out of people. I don't know what 812 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 1: to do other than to just say, like, hey, be 813 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: aware of this. Maybe maybe that'll help you. I know 814 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: it will help. I think. I think I think awareness 815 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 1: is is the key. And in in a way it's 816 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: it's kind of beautiful in this simplicity, right, because this 817 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: is ultimately the same thing that has been been been 818 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: preached in in in a few different religions, particularly in Buddhism. 819 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,439 Speaker 1: You know, the idea that one that is a self 820 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: awareness that has to take place, like you have to 821 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: be aware that of these various influences on your perception 822 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,960 Speaker 1: of of reality. And so if we're aware of the 823 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 1: dangers of narrative as well as the benefits of narrative, 824 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 1: then hopefully we can be in a better place to 825 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: properly navigate uh these pitfalls. Here's one piece of practical 826 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 1: advice actually that that does come out of this research. 827 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,239 Speaker 1: For me, is if you're worried that a narrative is 828 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,320 Speaker 1: working on you, is is working on your brain in 829 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,040 Speaker 1: a way that may actually prevent you from, say, understanding 830 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: the truth or doing the right thing, or something like that. 831 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: You know, if you're worried about a narrative's power over you, 832 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,960 Speaker 1: break your attention that this is the most powerful thing 833 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,880 Speaker 1: we can do in reaction to a narrative, because the 834 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: way the narrative maintains its grip on us is by 835 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,719 Speaker 1: holding our attention. If you just force yourself to look 836 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: away and think about something else, it's often shocking suddenly 837 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,400 Speaker 1: how quickly the spell breaks. Have you ever noticed this, 838 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,200 Speaker 1: Like you're talking about focusing on something in your environment, Yeah, 839 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: it could be in your environment. I mean narratives take 840 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 1: different forms. So it might be you're reading a book, 841 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:40,680 Speaker 1: it might be you're watching a video or a movie. 842 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,640 Speaker 1: It might be somebody's telling you something, whatever it is, 843 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 1: a lot of the power of the narrative is in 844 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,720 Speaker 1: keeping your attention wrapped. You are there, and you always 845 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,799 Speaker 1: have the power to break. To break that attention, right, 846 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:55,719 Speaker 1: you can look at something else, you can focus on 847 00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,479 Speaker 1: something else, you can think about something else and see 848 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 1: and see see what happens when you come back, see 849 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,719 Speaker 1: if it was worthy of your attention in the first place. 850 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 1: But that reminds me of something Galen Strawson said about, 851 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:07,799 Speaker 1: you know, consider the lilies of the field. I mean, 852 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: he didn't say that he's quoting the Bible, but you know, 853 00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,280 Speaker 1: like in order to go back to, you know, various 854 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,880 Speaker 1: meditative practices like focusing on breath, coming back to my breathing, 855 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,360 Speaker 1: coming back to something that is not this uh this, 856 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, this, this this storm of narratives about past 857 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 1: and future and self and other and coming back to 858 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,880 Speaker 1: something as as basic and ultimately largely objective as what 859 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 1: is my breath doing? Is it going in or is 860 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,319 Speaker 1: it coming out? What am I watching that bird doing? 861 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,359 Speaker 1: You know? I mean that's one of the reasons it's 862 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,320 Speaker 1: so calming to to uh, you know, participate in nature, 863 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,239 Speaker 1: to to observe nature. I think that's a really good point. 864 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,759 Speaker 1: And bringing it back to fictional narratives, do you ever 865 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 1: notice You might not agree, but I feel like there's 866 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 1: a counterintuitive process where I notice and understand the structure 867 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:02,160 Speaker 1: of movie plots better if I pay less close attention 868 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,280 Speaker 1: to the movie, Like if I'm sitting with somebody watching 869 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 1: a movie and we're occasionally like commenting or chatting back 870 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:10,800 Speaker 1: and forth, and I'm breaking my attention on the film. 871 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,759 Speaker 1: I actually have a clearer picture in my head of 872 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,040 Speaker 1: the shape of the story and where the beats are 873 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,480 Speaker 1: and all that. And I think that might be because 874 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,279 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not just totally sucked in on the 875 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,719 Speaker 1: story and riding along with it. I'm being pulled out 876 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,120 Speaker 1: and I'm getting I'm getting a zoomed out view by 877 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,800 Speaker 1: doing that. Interesting, I wonder if one could combat the 878 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,719 Speaker 1: potentially negative aspects of narrative by just anytime someone tells 879 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,880 Speaker 1: you a story, imagine Nicholas Cage in every role, you know, 880 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,360 Speaker 1: because uh, I feel like increasingly nothing, nothing brings me 881 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 1: out of a film, like like a good Nicolas. And 882 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 1: I know there's been kind of a Cage renaissance of late, 883 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,319 Speaker 1: but still, uh, you know, throw in something that kind 884 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,080 Speaker 1: of turns it nuts on its head. It makes it 885 00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 1: less of a of of a narrative. I mean, maybe 886 00:48:57,719 --> 00:48:59,759 Speaker 1: that's what we do when we say picture picture the 887 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: eye's in their underwear, you know, like transformed the narrative 888 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,560 Speaker 1: of what's happening into something that is lower stakes. I 889 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:12,560 Speaker 1: don't know. Picture Nicolas Cage in his pyramid in New Orleans. Wait, no, 890 00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,000 Speaker 1: what what? Oh? I was trying to think, what did 891 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,040 Speaker 1: I see him in? It was so great? Recently it 892 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,320 Speaker 1: was Mandy Oh, yeah, he was. He was great in that. 893 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:24,200 Speaker 1: But at the same time, um, he was inherently distracted, 894 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: you know. Um, I think that was maybe the right 895 00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,319 Speaker 1: movie for him. But I'm gonna, I'm actually gonna maybe 896 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: go against public opinion and say that I wonder if 897 00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,279 Speaker 1: it might have been a better film with maybe a 898 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,399 Speaker 1: slightly more nuanced performance in that role. But I'm still 899 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,239 Speaker 1: perfectly happy with what I got, though, made me pull 900 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:47,320 Speaker 1: on my long chainsaw. Robert, All right, Well, there you 901 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,759 Speaker 1: have it. I'm sure everyone has something to add on 902 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,040 Speaker 1: this one, because we all love stories, we all love 903 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,640 Speaker 1: different types stories, and then we're all dealing with with 904 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,480 Speaker 1: various forms of narrative and self narrative in our own lives. 905 00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,680 Speaker 1: So we'd love to hear from you. In the meantime. 906 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:01,239 Speaker 1: If you to check out more episodes of Stuff to 907 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:02,799 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind, head on over to stuff to Blow 908 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. That's where we find all the episodes. 909 00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,480 Speaker 1: You'll find links out to various social media accounts, you'll 910 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 1: find a tab for our store where you can buy 911 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,200 Speaker 1: some cool merchandise. It's a fun way to support the 912 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,480 Speaker 1: show and you know, get engaged with some of the ideas. 913 00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 1: But the best way to support our show is to 914 00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,920 Speaker 1: just make sure that you have subscribed to us wherever 915 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,000 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, and then if they have some 916 00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,360 Speaker 1: sort of mechanism for rating and reviewing us, do that 917 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,440 Speaker 1: give us, give us some stars, give us some kind words, 918 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,879 Speaker 1: because that ultimately really helps out the algorithm and helps 919 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,239 Speaker 1: m sure that we get to uh continue to keep 920 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,320 Speaker 1: putting out cool episodes like these huge things as always 921 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,800 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producers Alex Williams and Tarry Harrison. 922 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:41,600 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 923 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,240 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 924 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, just to say hello, you 925 00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,839 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to blow your 926 00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,319 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. That's a new email address, Contact at 927 00:50:53,560 --> 00:51:06,080 Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind dot com for more on 928 00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,640 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff 929 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:21,640 Speaker 1: works dot com. I think the biggest manu