WEBVTT - The Lake Oconee Murders : Part 2 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:11.319 Place your left hand on the bay Bible and race 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:15.320 your right hand and repeat after me. I solemnly swear 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:21.160 jury trying it defended, not scared this weekend in Ferguson 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:25.119 and around the country. It makes no sense. If it 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:28.280 doesn't fit, you must have quit. Judge, you are the 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:32.120 last line of reason in this case. Every one of 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.600 those took out all the topothis and we're sworn to 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:40.400 uphold of the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:46.720 is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. Sworn is brought 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:48.680 to you by zipp Recruiter. Do you know where to 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:52.159 post your job to find the best candidates? 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You're listening to part two of 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:15.320 the Lake of Coney murders. In the last episode, we 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:17.239 got the chance to talk to a reporter for the 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.160 Atlanta Journal and Constitution who has covered this case for 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.320 the past three years. We also talked to an expert 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:27.320 in solving cold cases and Putnam County Sheriff Howard Seals, 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:30.760 who is still in charge of this case. Shareff. Seals 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:33.320 offered to open up his case files for the very 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:37.360 first time ever to anyone outside law enforcement, exclusively for 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:40.160 the Sworn podcast. So Payne Lindsay and I took a 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.959 drive out to Lake o Coney to meet with Sheriff Seals. 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.280 The first thing he did will show us a detailed 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:50.400 power point presentation with never before seen photographs from the 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:53.600 crime scene. And today we're gonna share with you what 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:57.919 we learned from seeing what was in those case files firsthand. 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.520 We've used this with other law enforcement agencies, only this 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:13.000 has never been shown to the public. We brought another 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.959 law enforcement officers to look at this scene and stuff 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:19.440 like that to get their ideas and things of that nature. 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:21.400 So this is the first time anybody outside of law 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:24.720 enforcement's ever seen that. This is the Derman residence on 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:29.720 Caroline Drive and the Great Waters section of Reynolds Plantation 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.560 here in Putnam County, out on Lake o'coney. This is 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.640 the mailbox on the entrance to the house. This house really, 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.440 as you can see, ken't be seen from the street 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:42.840 very much other than the view of the garage basically 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:45.320 from the end of the cul de sac. It sits 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.600 at the back of a cove. It was really secluded. 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:50.640 It was at the end of a cul de sac. 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.000 There was a neighbor only on one side. It was 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:58.120 a fairly normal house, and there really wasn't anything about 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.080 the residents itself that caused it to stand out. This 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:04.080 is a walkway from the house down to the dock 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.000 and the lake itself. When were these pictures taken? These 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:09.680 twictures are taken the day of the day the bodies 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:14.240 were discovered, which was the Tuesday. We think this happened 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:18.200 on about Saturday, made the third or fourth of two 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:23.440 thousand and fourteen. The bodies were discovered the following Tuesday, 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.040 and so these photographs were taken the day of the 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:31.240 bodies were discovered. This doormat was originally of interest to us, 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.960 and that staying there was obviously of interest to us, 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.479 but it turned out not to be looks reddish in color, 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:40.200 but it's not. It's not blood and the people who 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:44.000 found them were on the ports there when we drove up. 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.119 Wasn't founder. These are two friends. So there's another couple 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.880 of married couple that were contemporaries of theirs. I don't 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:53.800 think they were quite as old as the Dermans. The 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:58.360 Dermans were Mr. Derman was his wife was seven. This 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:01.080 is a Kentucktive derby party that was within the gates 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:04.640 of this community and they didn't show up, and one 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:06.720 of the couples who were friends of them called over 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:08.560 there to you know, see if they were okay. And 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.040 then they didn't live right next door, but they only 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.479 lived two miles away, I guess at the most. And 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:16.840 they didn't answer the phone, you know, And then they 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.680 called back on Monday. A couple of times they didn't 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:23.360 answer the phone, and then on Tuesday morning they decided 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.800 they'd ride over there. And so they were on the 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:30.200 porch and they had gone in the kitchen door which 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.640 off that screen porch, which was not locked. They walked 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:36.840 into the house. They were familiar with the home, and 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:39.960 they went and opened the door from the kitchen into 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:44.880 the garage. Look saw both cars were there. Mr Durbin 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:48.680 drove a Lincoln town Car, older model Lincoln town car, 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:53.200 and his wife had Alexis suv. Saw both the cars there. 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.080 Soon they were there and then went around inside the house, 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.799 walked all through the house looking for him, didn't find 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:04.279 and then eventually the man walked down into the garage. 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.360 The garage is a little lower about three steps down 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:12.039 from the kitchen. This is literally as it was, and 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:14.880 if you were to have opened the front of the garage. 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.560 Would you have been able to see Mr Dermot Absolutely? 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:20.920 Did it look like anybody had been through the rest 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.200 of the house. No, it did not. There was no 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.920 The house to a great extent looked almost staged. As 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.440 you will see we're looking at now a picture or 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:34.120 a closer picture of the dock. Was there anything like 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:37.760 blood on the dock or any trace evidence that you're 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.480 able to find. No. Absolutely, canaver dogs brought in or 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:43.919 anything like that. Ever, dogs were brought in. We searched 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.800 that cove. We were brought in the most sophisticated equipment 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:49.560 we could get for viewing on the bottom of the lake, 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:54.280 and we searched this cove extensively. This cove, we looked 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:58.000 at every inch of it. We drug it initially. If 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.440 you know what I'm talking about with drag hooks. As 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.920 a former police officer and prosecutor and criminal lawyer, I've 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.600 made a living out of reviewing police workings. SHEF. Sills 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.320 really did seem to have covered all of his bases. 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.920 He scoured the entire surrounding lake and the cove outside 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.360 the Dermans residence. They brought in cadaver dogs. They even 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:22.160 traced Mr Derman's last steps right down to his grocery 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:24.280 list for the day. We know exactly what time he 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:26.640 went into the grocery store. I've got video of him 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:28.880 going into the grocery store. I know exactly what time 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.320 he got those prescriptions. I got video of him. But there, 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.280 I know exactly what time he went to the bank, 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.080 and have video and there. The last time anybody saw 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.080 them for sure was on Thursday, Thursday afternoon, he went 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:45.280 to the bank, He went to Public's, got those prescriptions filled, 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.040 got a loaf of bread and some cucumbers. They had 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.600 alarm system that was functional, but obviously there was no 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.480 alarm that went on at the time that the larm 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:58.600 was not activated at this time. That's when you walk 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.320 into their kitchen and right for s area, that's exactly 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:07.160 what you see. It looks like really just anybody's garden variety, 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.720 living room, kitchen area. It reminds me a lot of 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:14.000 like my house. Would. I see some newspapers out on 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.000 the counters, and that's the local eating and paper right there. 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.120 Pieces of mail on the other counter. There was some 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:24.560 mail that wasn't to be mailed on Netflix. Those medications 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.040 you see on the counter. Mrs Derman was scheduled to 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:30.680 have cataract surgery the next Weekursday was the last time 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:32.800 he was seen, and he was found on a Tuesday. 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:38.080 Tell us what happens to a human body if it's 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:42.640 dead for four days, Well, the decomposition begins immediately. Now, 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.040 we were, in some respects we were fortunate in this 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:50.120 situation because that garage is air conditioned and climate controls, 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.560 so we didn't have the same level of decomposition we 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:55.960 would have had if it had not been. Did that 0:08:56.040 --> 0:09:00.320 help you determine with any degree of accuracy how long 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:02.720 they had been dead before they were discovered. It was 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:07.319 consistent with the time frame we believe they were killed. 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:11.000 I'm pretty sure this happened on Saturday. We have reasons 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.360 for that one. There was some email on that laptop 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:18.080 that was sent. We know what time it was sent 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:23.120 on Friday, and Mrs Dermot had completed You'll see it 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.280 later in one of the other slides. She had completed 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.679 the crossword puzzle in the USA Today newspaper. Now the 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:34.320 Saturday us A newspaper actually comes on Friday, Friday afternoon, 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.120 and her family says she normally did it in the morning. 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:43.640 Decomposition the newspaper email on the laptop. All of those things, 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:47.680 narrator winded down pretty much to Friday or Saturday. Despite 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.600 the lack of traceable forensic evidence other than the headless 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.800 body of Mr Dermott, she Our Sills was able to 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:59.240 determine that the approximate time of his death was Saturday, 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.600 May the third. But here's the thing to remember. The 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:06.040 Putnam County Sheriff's office did not receive any nine one 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:10.240 one call about this until Tuesday, May the sixth, that's 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:13.920 three days later. That door, if you go kitchen, that 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.079 door there that you see open, that was not open 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:19.800 when the people found them. They left it open when 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.640 they discovered the body. So that brings up a point 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:25.600 that I want to talk about. We try to protect 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:30.440 crime scenes from people entering and leaving crime scenes. In 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.760 this situation, before you were able to secure the crime scene, 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.000 there was at least some degree of contamination in this 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:42.319 particular crime scene. There was so little things disturbed here, 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:44.720 you know what I'm talking about, things like that that 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:47.719 the fact that they had walked out there did not 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.920 jeopardize anything much from a forensic standpoint. We put enough 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.319 fingerprint potton in that house to fill the back of 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:57.880 a pickup truck and contrary to what people think about, 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:02.280 you know, my forties, replush your career, you know, make cases. 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.800 I saw with the finger print one. Trust me, we 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.040 pulled a lot of prints, but as far as identifiable print, 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:13.160 our no, it's quality print, no, sir. You know these 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.960 people were wealthy but frugal. If your back up one. 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:22.920 They were using two thousand and three calendars for notes. 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.960 Since we're narrating this, this is a like a three 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.040 ring or two rings sort of flipped calendar. It's it's 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:33.000 two thousand three and it's the data on it's January. 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:39.840 So we're now in and they're using this old calendar 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:43.640 to write themselves notes. This has a person's name and 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.680 the phone number on it. We noticed small notes that 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.440 they had written to one another as reminders of things 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.040 that they were gonna do. One thing stood out, and 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.240 that was a man's name and a man's phone number. 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.800 As it turned out, that name and number belonged to 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:03.080 a concrete tractor. Mr Dermot had planned on fixing a 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:06.120 crack in their driveway, but he never got the chance 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.079 to call the man. Sheriff still said that the concrete 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:13.600 man had been interviewed and subsequently vetted and was ruled out. 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:15.520 As you can see the house, it is just it's 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:21.720 macumaculate in every way. Nothing is disturbed in any manner. 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:24.480 There wasn't a single thing that seemed to be out 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:26.719 of place at all. Just look at I mean, it's 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:30.600 just immaculate. There was money in the credit cards, money 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.160 in the person. Any evidence of anything being stolen, not 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:37.440 that we know of. You know, there's a nice watch 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.840 laying there, like a Rolex or something. There are rolex 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.720 is there. The closets are immaculate. Uh, this is going 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.360 down the stairs. Now. This is the den area on 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:51.520 the ground floor. Huge liquor cabinet full of all kinds 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:55.200 of whiskey. If this was simply a burglary gone wrong, 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:57.720 you would think there would be some signs of a 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:01.680 disturbance and of course some stolen property. We saw jewelry, 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.160 we saw expensive things just laying around. There were rolex 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:07.920 watches there, but nothing seemed to have been taken. They 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:12.040 led a very simple life, actually a very simple life 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:16.240 all things considered. She played bridge in the local bridge club. 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:23.040 They went to a nondenominational community church. We had yet 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.760 to see any signs of a struggle or even a 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.080 murder for that matter. But as pictures of the Derman's 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:32.360 garage began to appear on the screen, I could tell 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.839 this was getting more ominous, and share Sells prepared us 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:40.680 for what was about to come. The garage was a 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:44.160 little bit of a lower level, and so when the 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.400 people who found them, when they first opened that door, 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:48.640 that's what they saw, which is nothing. You see the 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:52.160 two cars, and you see the garage's doors closed. The 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:54.640 cars looked very clean. It's a hell of a lot 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:57.600 cleaner than my garage is in my house. When the 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.440 man he found Mr Derman's body, when he saw that, 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:04.520 he walks on down and as you will see, this 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:12.319 is what you'd see. Oh my, this is I just 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.600 I'm speechless. When I walked back there and I saw 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.200 that body there, and then I didn't see the head. 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.120 I was scared that I was gonna be sitting there 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:31.240 three years later, not knowing who did this. Thousands of 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.320 people seeking home security get ripped off each and every day, 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.280 and the home security industry wants you to believe that 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.400 it's your only option. They've got hordes of salesmen out 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:42.480 there trying to scare you into signing one of their 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:47.040 long term contracts. You get stuck writing huge checks month 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:51.200 after month with no way out. It's robbery by contract folks, 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.080 and it can cost you thousands. But there's a better 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:58.320 way to protect your home. Simply Safe Home Security. Simply 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:02.160 Safe has no contracts and no commitments none. You'll get 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:07.280 award winning seven protection named best in the industry, security 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:11.320 professionals watching over your home, ready to instantly send the police, 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:14.520 and simply Safe is just four nine a month. That's 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:18.000 less than half of what most companies charge. Protect your 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.200 home and your family the smart way. Visit simply safe 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:25.120 dot com slash sworn to check out simply safe new 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.880 high definition camera and get ten percent off your order. 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:33.040 That's simply safe dot com slash sworn for ten percent 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:38.160 off your home security system. Simply safe dot com slash sworn. 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:47.080 So what we're seeing here from from my perspective is 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:55.160 a corpse. I see a a short sleeved shirt, looks 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:58.760 like cotton. Uh, it looks like short pants with a 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:06.600 design on them, barefoot. I see no head. I see 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:13.000 that it is not exactly a a sever wound, as 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.840 if you would expect someone to have been executed with 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.200 like a guillotine style. It looks more like of uh, 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:24.000 something that was taken off in a much more crude manner. 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:29.040 I see some towels laying to the side of the 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:34.320 left arm, and I see lots of blood and dried 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:39.200 blood what appears to be dried blood. Uh around the body. 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.400 It looks like the body maybe laying on top of 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:48.040 a bathrobe. Is that, right, sheriff? And I see off 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.200 to the right, is that a pair of shoes or 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:56.520 flip flops, slippers slippers? Looks like the right foot has 0:16:56.560 --> 0:17:00.120 been dragged through a pool of blood for maybe a 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:04.880 foot or so foot in a half. And it's very 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.239 obvious from looking at this picture that that is not 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.960 where he died. And the towels off to the left 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:16.000 looked like they appeared to be there for maybe the 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:20.399 purpose of keeping the blood from flowing out underneath the 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.240 garage door. That it was clear to me that's what 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:25.199 it was, because you can see the way the blood 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:27.800 when it came out of the body as it drained 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:33.080 out there. Uh it Uh, they thought that it would 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.800 go underneath the door and would be exposed. I think 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:39.399 at some point in time, maybe the body was propped 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.200 up against that car, fell back against the dropped against 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:47.199 that car. I see here now we're looking behind the 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.040 link in which was his car, and this, this is 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:53.640 a few feet away from the body. It looks like 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:59.760 a um pool of blood there that's, you know, roughly 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:02.679 the size of a head, and it looks like maybe 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.480 a head was placed there and blood drained out of it. 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:11.200 It's bigger, it's bigger than a head. But something light 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:16.679 that was put there on the floor. Obviously it was 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:20.439 uh you'll see these other blood spots that don't they 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:24.600 don't have tails. Because of the condition of the blood 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:28.400 surrounding Mr. Dermot's body in the garage, it was apparent 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:32.840 that he was decapitated after he died. And the reason 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:36.840 we know that is because if you sever someone's head, 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:39.480 you're going to sever some major arteries that go to 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:43.280 the brain, and when the heart's beating, it will literally 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:47.760 spurt blood for several feet away from where the arteries 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:49.920 are severed. If he'd have been alive, it would have 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:53.200 been like a garden hose. I mean, I've seen hogs. 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.440 I mean I've seen animals flattered, and it's quite quite 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:00.520 dramatic and that's not present. You see. It was a 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:04.200 very neat cut around the neck, almost like they used 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.920 the T shirt as a guide. There was no such 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.679 arterial spurting evident whatsoever. It was just like blood was 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:16.040 simply draining out, as if water from a bathtub. After 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:20.840 looking at these gruesome and savage pictures of Mr Derman's 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:25.439 headless body, the sheriff showed us Mrs Derman's body. This 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.840 is Mrs Derman's body, as I just literally picked that 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:31.399 body up and put it on the front of that 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:37.080 but personally, well sure who else would. Keep in mind, 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:40.600 she had been missing for ten days. Ten days after 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.320 Mr Dermant's body was discovered, two fishermen found her floating 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.040 in the lake about six miles away. I already had 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:49.959 my patrol boat, was already out there. I got this 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:52.520 boat from the n R because I had a low 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:54.560 free board, if you know, on tomback, because I knew 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:56.240 I had to pull this body up and I needed 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.280 something as low as I could get to. Uh. And 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:05.119 there's Ms Derman's body, fully closed, typical attire, shoes on shoes, 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:09.199 tied legatures around the feet right that's where it was tied. 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:13.480 And that miss bag you see to the right contained 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:18.280 two thirty pound concrete blocks. Whoever did this had tied 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:22.240 cement blocks around her legs. They had tied her feet together, 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.040 and she sunk to the bottom of the lake in 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:28.679 about sixty ft of water. The body came up, faced 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:33.320 down and lodged up against one of these trees, so 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.440 it actually caught on it like this. Up until this 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:42.040 point in time, I was working under the likely assumption 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:45.760 that Mrs Dermott had been abducted. Now, one of two 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.280 things happened up until this time Ms Derman had been abducted, 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.399 that's what we thought. Or number two, um Miss Derman 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:54.879 was a party to the crime and killing her husband. 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:59.400 Now that was highly unlikely, given their length of marriage 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:02.760 and a age and things like that. I was pretty 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:05.159 confident that eighty seven year old woman didn't cut that 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.520 man's head off. But she wasn't anywhere to be found. 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.200 But the fact that our purse, their car was there, 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:14.119 and stuff like that, we we were, we were very aggressively. 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:17.800 We had our picture on billboards, electronic billboards all over 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:23.359 the country, UH lookouts and things like that, uh looking 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:28.120 for her, working her working at as at least when 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:32.480 this we stopped that investigation. We stopped what we were doing, 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:36.560 and now we're back to not thinking the perpetrator has her. 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:39.560 Whoever sent her to the bottom of the lake clearly 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.200 didn't think she would ever come up, but she did. 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:44.879 And the reason that she did is that when the 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:49.359 human body decomposes, the cells began to release gases, and 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:52.840 the gases build up underneath the skin and the body 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:56.800 becomes bloated. It looks like a large balloon, and eventually, 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:00.680 even with sixty pounds of weight, the body will rise. 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:05.280 I'm fairly confident that her body was disposed of by water. 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:09.880 The location where it was disposed of, where it was recovered, 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:13.199 you couldn't get to it by land, and there was 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:17.680 no bridge or anything. She had had radical masectomy, and 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:22.159 she had a prosthetic breasts. All of that was on. 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:25.280 She was fully clothed, She had dressed for her day. 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:28.360 She had on a shirt, she had pants, her shoes, 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:32.159 Her shoes were tied. She had clearly dressed for her day, 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:35.439 and whatever happened to her was clearly something that she 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:38.320 wasn't expecting. When you put all this together, what it 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:41.000 tells us is that at the time of the murder, 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:44.520 Mrs Derman was likely awake and that this did not 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:47.040 happen in the middle of the night, but it likely 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:50.080 happened during the day. Tell me this, Sheriff. Do we 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:53.960 know if Ms Derman was alive when she was put 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.600 in the lake? She was? How do we know that 0:22:56.800 --> 0:23:00.320 pathological certainty? There's no She did not die as a 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:03.359 result of drowning. How did she die results of trauma? 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:05.880 Blunt force trauma to the head. One other key thing 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:09.440 to understand about Mrs Derman is that she did not 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:14.159 die from drowning. We saw photographs that are seared in 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:19.720 my brain forever. She suffered multiple deep blows from a 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:23.800 blunt instrument to her head. Two things going on here, 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:26.560 and that's why that's why I've always thought there's certainly 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:29.320 more than one person. We got two different scenes going 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:48.359 on there some sort of way. 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