Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
Speaker 1: today's best minds, and the Biden economy continues to exceed
Speaker 1: expectations with blockbuster job numbers. We have a fantastic show
Speaker 1: for you today. White House Press Secretary Karine Jean Pierre
Speaker 1: will explain to us what it means to be press secretary.
Speaker 1: Then we'll have CNN legal analyst Ellie Honig about his
Speaker 1: new book Untouchable How Powerful People Get Away with It.
Speaker 1: But first we have the host of Crash Course, Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Opinion editor Tim O'Brien. Welcome to Fast Politics. Tim O'Brien, Molly,
Speaker 1: this is like reality and fun any time you open it,
Speaker 1: So thanks for having me on. That's a bad sign.
Speaker 1: If I am your fun, then you're in trouble. No,
Speaker 1: that's not true. I've heard that actually a lot, and
Speaker 1: I appreciate it every time I hear it. So there's
Speaker 1: a spy balloon over Montana. Ryan Zinky. You may remember
Speaker 1: him as having one of the few people who had
Speaker 1: to resign from the Trump administration for corruption. That guy,
Speaker 1: or as I like to think of him, the guy
Speaker 1: who looks just like the Grinch is in Congress. Now. Yes,
Speaker 1: the path out of power is to suck up the
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, engage in a corrupt activity, to part for
Speaker 1: a while and come back with more power in Congress. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because that's the GOP function exactly. So basically, all of
Speaker 1: the Republicans who served Montana, the one congressman, two senators
Speaker 1: are all and also Marjorie Taylorgreen are like, shoot, the
Speaker 1: Chinese is spy balloon out of the sky. Let's go. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Balloon one that it got dubbed this by balloon is
Speaker 1: just really rich. And I think, you know the fact
Speaker 1: that we've got into the run, duck and cover phase
Speaker 1: of China paranoia. You know, I'm pretty hawkish about China.
Speaker 1: I think we should be vigilant about China. I think
Speaker 1: they're doing aggressive things in the South China Sea. I
Speaker 1: think they're a threat to stability in Asia. You know,
Speaker 1: I think that they haven't made good on their trade promises.
Speaker 1: But I think this balloon thing is the most absurd
Speaker 1: thing imaginable. For one, I don't think there's anything this
Speaker 1: if this balloon was equipped with special cameras or whatever
Speaker 1: else they think is on it, and My understanding is
Speaker 1: it could not capture anything on the ground. It's too
Speaker 1: far up. Well, the Chinese satellites couldn't already capture. The
Speaker 1: Chinese are now saying it's a weather balloon, which we
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't trust that either, but I sort of don't
Speaker 1: really care. And what's more interesting to me in this
Speaker 1: whole thing is it it is like the scare tactic
Speaker 1: phase of our relationship with China's anything you can latch
Speaker 1: onto just sort of say, look up in the sky,
Speaker 1: your barbecuing, and there's a spy balloons to political effect,
Speaker 1: right right, right, no question, And it does seem to me.
Speaker 1: You know, Republicans, it's funny because they were very against
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not funny, and it's also not what
Speaker 1: any kind of funny, but they were very, very against
Speaker 1: any kind of conflict with Russia. Vladimir Putin, he's our guy,
Speaker 1: but they are really into the idea of going to
Speaker 1: war with China. And then yet, you know, Nancy Pelosi
Speaker 1: goes to Taiwan, and Republicans, more than I think two
Speaker 1: dozen of whom in the prior two years service it
Speaker 1: had gone to Taiwan jump all over her as as
Speaker 1: sort of in artfully rattling the saber against China when
Speaker 1: they all have been spending a lot of time rattling
Speaker 1: the ship saber against China. The trouble with dissecting anything
Speaker 1: Republicans do right now is anything that they would consider
Speaker 1: to be policy goals or policy statements constantly get either
Speaker 1: undermined or made entirely opaque of the fact that they'll
Speaker 1: do anything to engage in culture wars or to find
Speaker 1: a reason to criticize the Democrats, even if they're criticizing
Speaker 1: Democrats for behavior they've engaged in themselves. Right now, one
Speaker 1: could ask if this balloon fiasco is a way to
Speaker 1: distract against these incredible, humongous job numbers. Can we talk
Speaker 1: about these job numbers? So, you know, unemployment is lowitz
Speaker 1: but it has been since nine the unemployed rate coming
Speaker 1: out of this existential threat of the pandemic lockdowns, there
Speaker 1: are you know, there are more jobs in the economy
Speaker 1: now than there were prior to the pandemic. And I
Speaker 1: think two things about it. One is, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't think presidents exercise a lot of control over the economy.
Speaker 1: They set some parameters, and I think the way the
Speaker 1: federal government operates, creates a you know, a hospital bit
Speaker 1: of environment for the economy to thrive if things are
Speaker 1: done right. During the whole time that inflation was soaring,
Speaker 1: Republicans were on other way to try to tag Biden
Speaker 1: as as blowing up the Trump economy and hurting average
Speaker 1: working class Americans. Certainly, and the reality is, I think
Speaker 1: inflation has peaked, I think it's moderating. The job market
Speaker 1: is strong. We'll see where this goes. The stock market
Speaker 1: right now, this is an interesting data point at this point,
Speaker 1: right now, yesterday, I have to look at the numbers
Speaker 1: again today. Yesterday it had grown at exactly the same
Speaker 1: amount over exactly the same period of time during Biden's
Speaker 1: presidency as it had during Trump's. So for all the
Speaker 1: Trump pieces who said the body is bad for the
Speaker 1: stock market, bad for the economy, bad from inflation, bad
Speaker 1: for working in class Americans, there's there's an avalanche of
Speaker 1: data that just tells them, get your head out of
Speaker 1: the sand, exactly. But I want to ask you about
Speaker 1: these jobs numbers for a minute, because they're actually too hot, right.
Speaker 1: Can you explain this a little bit? Wow, one, can
Speaker 1: jobs numbers ever be too high? The only people that
Speaker 1: say that our bond traders and the FED, the FETE
Speaker 1: is worried about a hot economy. They're worried about inflation.
Speaker 1: They're worried that a strong workforce will put pressure on
Speaker 1: demand and that will cause inflation to spike. So you
Speaker 1: have the FED fighting against the economy in a weird
Speaker 1: way to try to cool inflation. Well, I think you
Speaker 1: have the FED weighing. I don't think that's the way
Speaker 1: to think about it. I think the FED would always
Speaker 1: say their guardians of the long term health of the U.
Speaker 1: S economy, and I think that's the best of them.
Speaker 1: All think that way, and their public servants in that regard.
Speaker 1: But what they kind of constantly weigh is rising inflation
Speaker 1: versus full employment, and they see their mandate is trying
Speaker 1: to balance those two things. The problem with the inflation
Speaker 1: data that they're freaked out by is it spiked in
Speaker 1: an unusually fast way, and there's a possibility that it
Speaker 1: might dissipate in an unusually fast way. There was you know,
Speaker 1: people always talk about how political pulsters just really never
Speaker 1: really know and they get it wrong, and the same
Speaker 1: is true of economists. There's so much we don't know,
Speaker 1: but Inflation may have spiked because COVID bloke the supply chain.
Speaker 1: Inflation may spike because of massive and necessary government spending
Speaker 1: it to cushion the impact of the pandemic or excessive
Speaker 1: or intense demand from works. They don't really know. So
Speaker 1: they're trying to say how tough should we be to
Speaker 1: bring inflation down before it spirals out of control in
Speaker 1: a way that hurts the economy. But the problem is
Speaker 1: this is not a normal inflationary environment. So they're trying
Speaker 1: to say how long do we have to be tough?
Speaker 1: And I don't think we should think of a strong
Speaker 1: job market as bad. We want to stop market to
Speaker 1: be really, really strong, no, no question, But it is
Speaker 1: the tension is quite interesting among the you know, the pinheads.
Speaker 1: Interesting to me? Is that fair? You know? But I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't mean that about you. I mean that about
Speaker 1: the FED, right. I mean, I think a year or
Speaker 1: two from now, people will look back and said, did
Speaker 1: they get it right? And should they have been as
Speaker 1: spooked by inflation as they were or not? And if
Speaker 1: they're overly spooked that they could cause a recession if
Speaker 1: they had rates too high, right, no question, And that
Speaker 1: I think is a really good point, and that's something
Speaker 1: that we're all I think watching. So I want to
Speaker 1: ask you, now, we are in this pre healthscape Trump
Speaker 1: is in Republicans, I mean, what is I mean, just
Speaker 1: explained to me this factory and then I want to
Speaker 1: get to Stormy Daniels. Okay, by the way, they're bringing
Speaker 1: back all the first season characters right exactly, and I
Speaker 1: think actually maybe the greater effect legally, but we'll get there. Yes,
Speaker 1: the best way to understand Republicans right now is that
Speaker 1: they're in a hostage video right Donald Trump is filming them.
Speaker 1: He's got this, I think, a still unwavering hold on
Speaker 1: about of the Republican voting base, and that makes him
Speaker 1: a power broker in primaries. Is not somebody who can
Speaker 1: pull the national coalition together. And you know, there's this
Speaker 1: debate of will he repeat and because the GOP field
Speaker 1: is so fractured, he'll have enough to get over the
Speaker 1: top and then be able to win again because he'll
Speaker 1: sew it together in a few states as he did
Speaker 1: against Hillary Clinton. I think the American electorate has become
Speaker 1: wise enough, not maybe wise enough, but but you know,
Speaker 1: wise to what he represents at the national level. And
Speaker 1: he's lost three national referendums, you know, in the last
Speaker 1: three electoral cycles. And the Republicans don't know what to
Speaker 1: do about that because I think they know he's not
Speaker 1: viable nationally, but they know they can't cut him off
Speaker 1: because they'll they'll need his mojo during the primary season.
Speaker 1: I think that's clearly what's happening. So now we have
Speaker 1: this Stormy Daniels situation coming back. I want to talk
Speaker 1: to you about Alvin Bragg. Alvin Bragg had a case
Speaker 1: that was a case of inflating the value of the
Speaker 1: assets basically the fraud banks right to defraud banks. And
Speaker 1: now he decided not to keep going with that, and
Speaker 1: there was a lot of controversy there and a lot
Speaker 1: of people asking what was he doing. Now Alvin Bragg
Speaker 1: is maybe back. I mean, do you think the emperor
Speaker 1: has no clothes? Do you think this is real? Tell
Speaker 1: me what you think? I think this is real. I
Speaker 1: don't think they'd be spinning their wheels there. You know,
Speaker 1: they're doubling down on trying to get Alan Weizelberg to flip.
Speaker 1: I think against Trump. They put enormous pressure on Jeff mcconnie.
Speaker 1: You know, people think of the Trump organization as like
Speaker 1: an organization, it's actually an oxymoron, right. It's neither organized
Speaker 1: nor very large. It was a small shop of a
Speaker 1: few people that did what Trump told them to do.
Speaker 1: So any of these people that he's investigating are people
Speaker 1: who after we're working on in the direction of Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: I think he felt in the first phase when Mark
Speaker 1: Palmerant's laughed, you know, well regarded prosecutor who's in the
Speaker 1: office and resigned because he felt Bragg wouldn't bring a
Speaker 1: prosecution of Trump if they didn't have the evidence to
Speaker 1: prove that Trump had intent when the banks were allegedly defrauded,
Speaker 1: and there was a big split in that office on
Speaker 1: that case that that that route didn't Some felt they
Speaker 1: had the evidence, some felt they didn't, and they parted ways.
Speaker 1: I think he's now looking at an accounting fraud case,
Speaker 1: and I think I think he believes he has the
Speaker 1: evidence to establish intent around Donald Trump, certainly among his minions,
Speaker 1: which is why they all look so disastrously like beating
Speaker 1: into the ground. Whenever there's photos of them coming out
Speaker 1: of the courthouses, or you know, it's like Kelly's Heroes
Speaker 1: or something. Some old movie of like you know, guys
Speaker 1: in prison who are sprung to go into battle. So
Speaker 1: you think this is a real case and they can
Speaker 1: get him on this or they can do something. I
Speaker 1: don't know if they can get him. I don't think.
Speaker 1: I mean, the States and this are so high that
Speaker 1: I don't think any prosecutor in the country right now
Speaker 1: is going to go lightly about their work. And I
Speaker 1: think we've seen, uh, you know, Fonnie Willis go diligently
Speaker 1: about her work. I hope Mark Garland is going diligently
Speaker 1: about his. He appears to be. You know, I think
Speaker 1: that Tish James a ge New York is, and I
Speaker 1: think brag is and I think he feels I would
Speaker 1: look at this and I would say he feels he's
Speaker 1: got a case now, but it's a different one than
Speaker 1: what was given to him when he first came into
Speaker 1: the d A's office. It is weird, you know, I've
Speaker 1: written a lot about this, You've written a lot about this.
Speaker 1: It does feel kind of strange that here's Trump. You know,
Speaker 1: he is, I mean, by far, the most criminal president
Speaker 1: we've ever had, and he's had no official anything again,
Speaker 1: you know, he's free to run again. He's got no,
Speaker 1: you know, he's not. He has yet to be indicted.
Speaker 1: I mean, it is a bit strange that he's in
Speaker 1: this position of two years later. Yeah, I mean I think,
Speaker 1: you know, part of it is the problem of white
Speaker 1: collar crime generally in the US is our system is
Speaker 1: almost built to make you know, perpetrators of white collar
Speaker 1: crimes variously defined as subject too much higher burden of proof.
Speaker 1: And somebody who rips off the seven eleven, and and
Speaker 1: then secondarily, he's got the powers of the presidency. I
Speaker 1: wish prosecutors would sort of get rid of this the
Speaker 1: majesty of the office kind of thinking and just treat
Speaker 1: him like you would treat any other target. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think the investigation was undermined by Mueller's deference to the
Speaker 1: White House, and that's protected Trump, you know, And and
Speaker 1: it's he sort of just stumbled into that accidentally and
Speaker 1: and then discovered that it was yet another ring of
Speaker 1: fire that could keep justice from crawling up as to
Speaker 1: his doorstep. Yeah, I mean, it definitely true. So I
Speaker 1: want to ask you about David Pecker, one of our
Speaker 1: we haven't just not the first time we've talked about him.
Speaker 1: He has really skated That's another you know, that's another
Speaker 1: amazing thing is he is in the midst and in
Speaker 1: the middle of not just the stormy Daniels, you know,
Speaker 1: matter and finding cushions for Trump's alleged lovers. He spent
Speaker 1: years weaponizing his media properties on Trump's behalf. But you
Speaker 1: know that's not a crime in this country, by the way,
Speaker 1: since you and I are both in the media. But
Speaker 1: he has certainly fallen reputationally in his station in the world.
Speaker 1: I think has changed. Not that it was ever on
Speaker 1: an elevated plane. It was gonna say, I mean the
Speaker 1: guy who wants the examiner. Yeah, when you're already in
Speaker 1: the tar pit, how far down can you go? We
Speaker 1: find ourselves like in this run up to this election,
Speaker 1: and I just want to know, Like, it does seem
Speaker 1: like Trump could win, but it also seems like Trump
Speaker 1: could absolutely not win this primary. I think Trump could
Speaker 1: win the primary and not win the national election. And
Speaker 1: I think the Republicans deserve that dilemma because they've lacked
Speaker 1: the courage and integrity to do otherwise. You know, I
Speaker 1: think if the economy had been unwinding now continuously and
Speaker 1: inflation was on a wild rampage, I think it would
Speaker 1: have been hard for Biden to be the standard bearer
Speaker 1: for the Democrats. You know, he's obviously like a disastrous
Speaker 1: public speaker and often cringe worthy, but he is stuck
Speaker 1: by I think programmatically what he and his advisors and
Speaker 1: a meaningful block of Democrats and independent voters want to
Speaker 1: hear and see legislatively and then on a policy track.
Speaker 1: And I think he'll probably be the standard bearer. I
Speaker 1: mean that's a really good question, right because it's like,
Speaker 1: I mean, how do you argue the policy? You know,
Speaker 1: the economy is coming back, There's a lot of good
Speaker 1: stuff happening. You know, Republicans when they say, like things
Speaker 1: are a disaster, they make up stuff that you know,
Speaker 1: it's five billion dollars worth of CRT being taught in
Speaker 1: nursery schools. I mean, you know, like I just I
Speaker 1: wonder if you know, if all of those other things
Speaker 1: are okay, maybe it doesn't matter that, you know, Biden
Speaker 1: is imperfect. I think that could very well be the case.
Speaker 1: And I think that voters actually made that trade off
Speaker 1: in twenty you know, and you know, voters rescued us,
Speaker 1: and they rescued us in the mids terms and they're
Speaker 1: gonna rescue us again. The media and law enforcement other
Speaker 1: institutions played a role, I think in keeping a finger
Speaker 1: in the dike around Trump is um, but it was
Speaker 1: ultimately voters who had to rescue us. I felt very
Speaker 1: pessimistic prior to the mid terms and me too, and
Speaker 1: I was really happy to see that, Hey, people are
Speaker 1: paying attention, and so now I feel a little more
Speaker 1: optimistic about From your mouth to God's ear, thank you
Speaker 1: very much, Tim of Iran, thank you for having Karine.
Speaker 1: Jean Pierre is the White House Press secretary. Welcome to
Speaker 1: Fast Politics, Karne, Hello Molly, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: having me Fast Politic as well. We'll be fast. We'll
Speaker 1: be fast. We'll be fast. So you are a press secretary.
Speaker 1: It's a pretty big deal. It's a pretty enormous job.
Speaker 1: Will you explain to our listeners who are very politically
Speaker 1: savvy but might not completely understand what is the job.
Speaker 1: So the job is being essentially the top chief spokesperson
Speaker 1: for the president of the United States. That's the simplest,
Speaker 1: simplest way to explain it, which is I have the
Speaker 1: honor and the privilege to be at a podium for
Speaker 1: about an hour almost every day, five days a week
Speaker 1: at the most, to talk about the president's priorities, the
Speaker 1: president's to how is he delivering for the American people,
Speaker 1: And then I take those questions from the members of
Speaker 1: the press on things that they want to ask about,
Speaker 1: either that particular policy or the news of the day.
Speaker 1: And honestly, Molly, it is a privilege and an honor
Speaker 1: to be able to do that every single day for
Speaker 1: the most powerful leader in the world, the President of
Speaker 1: the United States. Sometimes I have to pinch myself because
Speaker 1: it is indeed something that I would have never have
Speaker 1: dreamed of, and I take that responsibility Molly, so seriously.
Speaker 1: It is very heavy on my shoulders and heavy weight
Speaker 1: on my shoulder because I want to make sure that
Speaker 1: I'm doing it in an effective way so the American
Speaker 1: people know what we're doing dealing with, know what we're
Speaker 1: talking about, and also making sure that I'm capturing the
Speaker 1: President's voice and capturing also what it is that he
Speaker 1: wants me to talk about as it relates to the
Speaker 1: policies that we're trying to push forward. Something I think
Speaker 1: people may not know is that the press is in
Speaker 1: sort of the same area as the rest of the
Speaker 1: White House staff. Can you explain that a little bit,
Speaker 1: because that's sort of interesting. Yeah. So I always say
Speaker 1: that we are the one department office on the campus,
Speaker 1: on the White House campus where our constituents are with us.
Speaker 1: Our constituents are right here on campus. And what I
Speaker 1: mean about that is I just mentioned the White House
Speaker 1: brief rom room. People know the White House brief Room
Speaker 1: and is a well known room or part of the
Speaker 1: White House, uh that many people who come on tours
Speaker 1: that is one of the places, it's like the Oval office,
Speaker 1: the White House Briefing Room that they want to see
Speaker 1: for themselves. And because of that, there are some White
Speaker 1: House correspondents and White House reporters or White House producers
Speaker 1: that actually have offices and cubicles right kind of under
Speaker 1: like to the back under on the floor of the
Speaker 1: Priestsent Briefing Room, but also um in the basement. And
Speaker 1: it is certain publications have boots. It's been a lot
Speaker 1: of it is historical how long they've been there, and
Speaker 1: so they actually worked there. They have their work hours
Speaker 1: in their boots in their offices right there in the
Speaker 1: in the White House. And then some folks, I know
Speaker 1: you said, your folks are pretty politically savvy obviously if
Speaker 1: they're listening to you and want to hear news about
Speaker 1: what's happening in d C and across the country. There
Speaker 1: is the White House North Lawn, which is right to
Speaker 1: the right of the White House in front of the
Speaker 1: White House, and um, they're the White House law and
Speaker 1: has all of the cameras and the TVs, and you'll
Speaker 1: see a lot of the White House correspondence, a lot
Speaker 1: of the White House reporters standing doing their reporting, and
Speaker 1: you see the White House in the back behind them
Speaker 1: as the backdrop. And so those are the those reporters
Speaker 1: as well. A lot of them spend most of their
Speaker 1: day right here at the White House doing their job,
Speaker 1: doing their work, coming to the briefing room and reporting.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that your parents are okay that you're
Speaker 1: not a doctor? Now? Do you feel that they've given
Speaker 1: you the okay? They have given me the okay? I
Speaker 1: have incre credibly proud parents. My mom, I know, watches
Speaker 1: the briefing whenever it is on and is always proud
Speaker 1: and it's always cheering me on. Will let me know
Speaker 1: that she watched the briefing, brags about me. Here's from
Speaker 1: her friends about me and it's just incredibly proud. I
Speaker 1: brought my mom to the state dinner, which is the
Speaker 1: first date dinner that the president had in his presidency.
Speaker 1: Obviously COVID had slowed us down a bit for the
Speaker 1: first year and a half or so. That was France, right, Yes,
Speaker 1: President ma Quan and Bridget his wife. They came in December,
Speaker 1: December one, and my mom was my plus one, and
Speaker 1: she was so thrilled and so happy, and she kept
Speaker 1: on she cried a couple of times, and she and
Speaker 1: the next day she told me, you just made me
Speaker 1: so happy. You just don't understand how happy you made me.
Speaker 1: And she met the president for the first time, which
Speaker 1: I hadn't realized that she hadn't met him yet, and
Speaker 1: she went up to him and said, I love you
Speaker 1: so much. He's so he's just so good. President's just
Speaker 1: president body. It's just so good at And he opened
Speaker 1: his arms and she put her head in his chest
Speaker 1: and he hugged her really really tight and said, so
Speaker 1: lovely to meet you, and of course said all the
Speaker 1: nice things about me, which he's very good at as well.
Speaker 1: And it's a moment that is one of the most
Speaker 1: beautiful moments that I have experienced um with my mom.
Speaker 1: We have a photo of it that I'm going to
Speaker 1: get printed and framed so she could have in her home.
Speaker 1: So I want to ask you. We had this administration,
Speaker 1: the last administration, the one before this, otherwise known as
Speaker 1: the Former Guy, and they were really worked hard to
Speaker 1: demonize as the main stream media, to say that the
Speaker 1: media was the enemy of the people, and some of
Speaker 1: it worked. How do you interface with the media in
Speaker 1: a world where the media, you know, one party really
Speaker 1: does hate the media and it's unfortunate what we saw.
Speaker 1: Let me just call that out very clearly, what we
Speaker 1: saw from the last administration and with what they try
Speaker 1: to do to the media, which is journalism, is we
Speaker 1: are a democracy. Journalism is important and it's something that
Speaker 1: we should fight for, and the president fights for here
Speaker 1: in this country and across and speaks to it globally
Speaker 1: right across the world. When we see a journalist that's
Speaker 1: being attacked or not allowed to report freely, not allowed
Speaker 1: to do their journalistic duties, we have to call that
Speaker 1: out because having a democracy is important. So that's one
Speaker 1: piece I think we need to call that out. We
Speaker 1: have we have course corrected, if you will, and have
Speaker 1: hopefully brought back a healthier relationship, and we understand what
Speaker 1: it means for them to to be in the room
Speaker 1: and to take those questions. Look, I think, Molly, regardless
Speaker 1: of who is in this role or which party is
Speaker 1: in power outside of the last administration, right, which is
Speaker 1: what we saw, there's a natural tension right between the
Speaker 1: press and any administration. And the person in my job
Speaker 1: is the focal point of that, right and so and
Speaker 1: and so. What's why I want to be also clear,
Speaker 1: is that tension. I think that tension is actually very good.
Speaker 1: It is a healthy part of our democracy. The press
Speaker 1: can and should question the government. That is their job
Speaker 1: what they should do. They should seek the truth and
Speaker 1: hold the powerful accountable. Right, that is what they should do.
Speaker 1: And I know some in the press, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't like my answers every day, But that is part
Speaker 1: of the give and take of the job. And that
Speaker 1: is not unique to me at all. I think that
Speaker 1: has been true for every press secretary specifically, I think
Speaker 1: as well the modern day ones. Since our briefings are televised,
Speaker 1: the briefing being televised kind of also changes that dynamic
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, oh, no question. I also think that.
Speaker 1: I mean, the job here is for the media to
Speaker 1: be contentious in some ways. Well, I think, like I said,
Speaker 1: a healthy back and forth and there's always going to
Speaker 1: be tensioned. That makes sense. And they should question the government,
Speaker 1: they should question what it is that we're trying to
Speaker 1: do and on behalf of the American people. And you
Speaker 1: know what, I appreciate that that's my job. That is
Speaker 1: my job. I don't take anything personally because like I said,
Speaker 1: every Press secretary has had this experience, and so that's
Speaker 1: kind of how I how I leave it. I just
Speaker 1: do my job, do it the best of my abilities,
Speaker 1: making sure that two things that I really focus on
Speaker 1: focus on is communicating the president's agenda to the American people.
Speaker 1: The American people truly truly matter, right, because that's who
Speaker 1: we're working on, behalf of h and making sure that
Speaker 1: we do have that that democracy right, that back and forth,
Speaker 1: that journalism that is so important, and how they report
Speaker 1: back and being transparent and talking about the work and
Speaker 1: what we're trying to do here. It is interesting though
Speaker 1: that like for example, with the economy, this has actually
Speaker 1: been quite a much more positive economic cycle than many
Speaker 1: people thought. You know, inflation looks like it's it's you know,
Speaker 1: moving in the right direction. There's a lot of good
Speaker 1: news in there, and there's been some hesitation on the
Speaker 1: part of the main tree media. I feel like to
Speaker 1: celebrate that good news. Let me just echo a little
Speaker 1: bit of what you just said. The President's economic policy
Speaker 1: is working. The president economic policy is working, and the
Speaker 1: data shows that you talked about inflation. We are seeing
Speaker 1: inflation cool for the last six months. We're seeing unemployed
Speaker 1: unemployment rate at a rate that we haven't seen in
Speaker 1: more than fifty years. We are seeing historical legislative successes
Speaker 1: that we haven't seen since lb J. When you think
Speaker 1: about infrastructure really pushing. We pushed a bipartisan infrastructure legislation
Speaker 1: that is now law that is going to change communities
Speaker 1: across the country, something that was a joke. Infrastructure Week
Speaker 1: was a joke in the last administration. Right, Remember, many
Speaker 1: presidents have tried to do this and we're not able
Speaker 1: to do this, and we were able to do it.
Speaker 1: And let's not forget the American Rescue Plan, which was
Speaker 1: the first piece of legislation that really helped us get
Speaker 1: the economy back on its feet. Many people said we
Speaker 1: couldn't do it. We got it done with only Democrats.
Speaker 1: The bipartisan Infrastructure Legislation. Many people said, get oh you,
Speaker 1: there's no way you're gonna be able to get that
Speaker 1: done in a bipartisan way. No one you're going to
Speaker 1: be able to do that. Do that. The President got
Speaker 1: it done. The Inflation Reduction Act, which is going to
Speaker 1: lower premiums, lower healthcare costs. It's going to really truly
Speaker 1: help Americans with healthcare, with fighting climate change, right with
Speaker 1: making sure that we're lowering costs even on energy, and
Speaker 1: creating jobs. I didn't even say that creating jobs. That's
Speaker 1: what people said, There's no way you're gonna do it,
Speaker 1: and the President got it done. The Veterans piece of
Speaker 1: legislation that deals with an issue that veterans have had
Speaker 1: to deal with for a long time. That got done
Speaker 1: in a bipartisans the way. The Chips and Science Act,
Speaker 1: that got done. And let's not forget one of the
Speaker 1: last pieces this president signed in the last session was
Speaker 1: the Marriage Equality Act, which was done in a bipartisan way.
Speaker 1: And guess what people said that wouldn't be get done.
Speaker 1: The Gun Violence Prevention Act. Yeah, I never thought that
Speaker 1: would get done. Yeah, the Gun Violence Prevention Act. People
Speaker 1: didn't think that was gonna be to do. It the
Speaker 1: most significant piece of legislation to happen in thirty years
Speaker 1: on gun violence. We still have a lot of work
Speaker 1: to do, but that got done. But to your point,
Speaker 1: it is we constantly have to push, We constantly have
Speaker 1: to lay out how it is that this president has
Speaker 1: transformationally change how we deal with the economy. Instead of
Speaker 1: doing trickle down, which we don't believe in, he doesn't
Speaker 1: believe in, we're building economy from the bottom up, middle out,
Speaker 1: which is not leaving anyone behind. But you're right, it
Speaker 1: is very difficult. It is very difficult to get that
Speaker 1: out there. And uh um. And so it is our
Speaker 1: job right to talk directly to the American people, to
Speaker 1: talk to your viewers, and as well you use other
Speaker 1: mediums to have those conversations so we can really broaden
Speaker 1: and grow our platform, our audience. So this is why
Speaker 1: it's so important for me to talk to you, Molly,
Speaker 1: as well as you know, talk to the folks in
Speaker 1: the briefing room, but also to have conversations with folks
Speaker 1: like yourself. As I mean, I interviewed the Vice President
Speaker 1: and it's impossible to quantify what it means to be first,
Speaker 1: but you too are first in a number of different
Speaker 1: ways as Press secretary. Do you sort of take that
Speaker 1: in and say, like, people might give me a harder
Speaker 1: time and I just I mean people give me a
Speaker 1: very hard time too. I'm not the first of anything,
Speaker 1: but I just try not to personalize that. I mean,
Speaker 1: is that what you do or do you have some
Speaker 1: other I stay focused on my job. I think historians
Speaker 1: and history will certainly write about that and have their opinion.
Speaker 1: My job is to focus on the work at hand.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of noise, Molly, as you know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of noise every day, a lot of noise.
Speaker 1: My job, I believe, is to tune it out. I
Speaker 1: stay focused on what I can control, which is how
Speaker 1: I communicate from the podium about what the administration is
Speaker 1: doing every day to help the American public and serving
Speaker 1: in these roles are not about me, It really isn't.
Speaker 1: It is not about me. It's not a about the
Speaker 1: president even It's about the public who we are. We're
Speaker 1: here to serve. That's what it's about. And I stay
Speaker 1: really focused on that and tune out the rest. I'll
Speaker 1: add a few personal anecdotes because I think it's really important.
Speaker 1: You know, we're in a bubble here in d C,
Speaker 1: and sometimes I don't really pay attention. You were talking
Speaker 1: about being a first and the communities that I represent,
Speaker 1: and sometimes I forget that, And I mean I inherently
Speaker 1: know it, right, clearly, I know it, but sometimes I
Speaker 1: forget how much me being at that podium does touch people.
Speaker 1: I often encounter folks outside of this bubble, and not
Speaker 1: even too much outside of the bubble, right, even the
Speaker 1: suburbs of the d m V. I go out there
Speaker 1: and I have people who cry, who tell me how
Speaker 1: important it is to see me, and it's and it
Speaker 1: is people of people from from various backgrounds, right. It
Speaker 1: could be someone young in the black community, or someone
Speaker 1: in a different community, or it doesn't matter, or the
Speaker 1: LGBTQ community. It is surprising to me how seeing me
Speaker 1: at the podium had touched so many people in a
Speaker 1: way that's inspiring, in a way that changes their lives.
Speaker 1: So if I'm able to do that at the same time, Molly,
Speaker 1: that is great, and I and I honor that, and I,
Speaker 1: like I said, I started off this interview saying It
Speaker 1: is a privilege and an honor to be doing this job.
Speaker 1: And if I can, on top of it, if I
Speaker 1: can inspire people, that's great. That is great, and that
Speaker 1: is I think important. If you think about how the
Speaker 1: President thinks about things, right, if you think about how
Speaker 1: President Biden and Dr Biden think about the importance of diversity,
Speaker 1: they think about how representation matters. They think they thought
Speaker 1: about what it meant to have someone like me at
Speaker 1: the podium, and it speaks to how diverse this administration
Speaker 1: is and the most diverse in modern presidents. I think
Speaker 1: that says actually more about them, more about the president
Speaker 1: than me. Yeah, I absolutely think that's true. You have
Speaker 1: questions that you can't answer for any number of reasons.
Speaker 1: How do you deal with that? I deal with it
Speaker 1: in the most honest way that I can, right, And
Speaker 1: it depends on the question. Right. Most recently it's because
Speaker 1: of a legal matter, right, if there's a legal matter.
Speaker 1: We have been very clear here. We have been very
Speaker 1: clear that we just don't comment on that. It doesn't
Speaker 1: matter what the topic is or who the top who
Speaker 1: it's about, we have said the President has said during
Speaker 1: the campaign. From the campaign, he has said the Department
Speaker 1: of Justice needs to be given back it's independence. It
Speaker 1: is important to not politically interfere or get involved under
Speaker 1: any with any investigation. And this is the thing. You
Speaker 1: have heard us say this from the beginning of this administration.
Speaker 1: There's nothing absolutely new. And I said this at the beginning.
Speaker 1: They're going to be times where I understand, I totally
Speaker 1: get it. The press is not going to like my
Speaker 1: answer or think that I'm not giving them an answer.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing, Molly, I'm doing my job regardless
Speaker 1: right the answer I'm giving, I'm doing my job so true.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much is so interesting. I certainly know. Thanks, Molly.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate the time. I really do. I know you.
Speaker 1: Our dear listeners are very busy and you don't have
Speaker 1: time to sort through the hundreds of pieces of punditentry
Speaker 1: each week. This is why every week I put together
Speaker 1: a newsletter of my five favorite articles on politics. If
Speaker 1: you enjoy the podcast, you will love having this in
Speaker 1: your inbox every Friday. So sign up at Fast Politics
Speaker 1: pod dot com and click the tab to join our
Speaker 1: mailing list. That's Fast politics pod dot com. Ellie Honeg
Speaker 1: is a CNN legal analyst and author of the book
Speaker 1: Untouchable How Powerful People Get Away with It. Welcome Too
Speaker 1: Fast Politics, Ellie Molly John Fast. It is always a
Speaker 1: pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: We're delighted. So let's talk about the book first. How
Speaker 1: did you decide I did to write this book? Tell
Speaker 1: us about it, tell us your origin story. Go This
Speaker 1: book arose organically. I wrote my first book, which was
Speaker 1: called Hatchetman, How Bill bar Corrupted the Justice Department, and
Speaker 1: it went great, just proven to be more and more
Speaker 1: true every day. You saw that times I know, I mean,
Speaker 1: I want to do an indent. We did a paperback
Speaker 1: and I wrote a whole new chapter. I feel like
Speaker 1: I could almost write volume two, just even up to now.
Speaker 1: It's like this guy is such a such a liar
Speaker 1: and so corrupt that it just keeps years later, it's
Speaker 1: still coming out on this guy. Talk about that time
Speaker 1: story for one second, and then we'll get back to
Speaker 1: your book. But there was a story yesterday in the
Speaker 1: New York Times Charlie Savage that basically said Bill bar
Speaker 1: tried to influence these Durham investigation John Durham. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you know there's a chapter in the first book where
Speaker 1: I heavily criticized Bar over the Durham investigation. Basically, the
Speaker 1: it turns out the Durham investigation is exactly what it
Speaker 1: looked like and exactly what we all thought, which is
Speaker 1: it's this politically driven in quest to try to undermine
Speaker 1: anything Robert Mueller did and to try to lend some
Speaker 1: fuel to the fire of no collusion or that actually
Speaker 1: the FBI was corrupt. Here Durham's investigation has been a
Speaker 1: complete spectacular failure, and it turns out, of course bar
Speaker 1: was complicit in it and tried to essentially soft pedal
Speaker 1: or lie to us about it, and he also tried
Speaker 1: to sort of push Durham to find something and to
Speaker 1: trash Muller. Yes, I mean Bill Barr could not hide
Speaker 1: his bias on this particular issue. He was pretty good
Speaker 1: at hiding his stripes on some things, but it always
Speaker 1: burned him. He always felt like the whole investigation of
Speaker 1: Donald Trump was a fraud, was a hoax, despite all
Speaker 1: the evidence that at least an investigation was necessary. Any
Speaker 1: he pressured Durham, he tried to find results that just
Speaker 1: weren't there, and it's just more fuel to the fire
Speaker 1: that sort of spurred my first book. So you were
Speaker 1: right about Bill Barr. I think it's important. I am
Speaker 1: confident in saying I was absolutely about Bill. And by
Speaker 1: the way, this guy's this guy one of a small note,
Speaker 1: but you know, he always put on this whole act
Speaker 1: of like, oh, I'm too old for this crap. I
Speaker 1: don't need this business. I don't care what people say
Speaker 1: about me. The terms. He's very very vain, he's very
Speaker 1: very public image conscious. I mean, he goes on every
Speaker 1: TV show. He's on air more than me almost. He
Speaker 1: was on Bell mar last week. Did Bill Moore? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And and the funniest thing is this is in my paperback.
Speaker 1: After he got out. In response to a freedom of
Speaker 1: information request, d o J released some of his texts.
Speaker 1: This guy is monitoring Twitter, going, oh, did Don Junior
Speaker 1: retweet me? It's embarrassing. That's amazing. At least someone respects
Speaker 1: Don Junior. Yeah, right, at least someone's hoping for approval
Speaker 1: from the guy. Yeah. So I do the first book,
Speaker 1: and HarperCollins, my publisher, is thrilled with it and did well.
Speaker 1: And a couple of weeks after it came out, they said,
Speaker 1: what do you want to do next, And I said,
Speaker 1: I don't really have any ideas. Guys. That was kind
Speaker 1: of my one thing that I had in mind. And
Speaker 1: they said, well, let me ask you this. My editor said,
Speaker 1: let me ask you this. What's the question that people
Speaker 1: just ask you the most through CNN or through through
Speaker 1: the other work you do. He's to take a couple
Speaker 1: of days, think about it, get back to me. And
Speaker 1: I said, oh, I don't need to take a couple
Speaker 1: of days. I'll tell you right now. The question is
Speaker 1: how the hell does he get away with it? He
Speaker 1: can vary a bit, but it's the most often used
Speaker 1: to revert to Donald Trump. And they said, there it is.
Speaker 1: Do that. And so what I do in the book
Speaker 1: is I blend a lot of different things. First of all,
Speaker 1: there's original reporting in there. There's scoops in there about
Speaker 1: things that happened behind closed doors at my old office
Speaker 1: the Southern District of New York and d O J.
Speaker 1: I take a lot of the public reporting and did
Speaker 1: a lot of research on not just Trump, but Harvey Weinstein,
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein, Bill Cosby. Right, there are a lot of
Speaker 1: these guys got away with that exactly, Various CEOs, people
Speaker 1: who aren't as household names either. And then third, I
Speaker 1: blend in a lot of my own stories from when
Speaker 1: I was a prosecutor. I was a mob prosecutor, Molly.
Speaker 1: I did cases against really over a hundred if you
Speaker 1: counted all up actual New York City Gambino and Genevese
Speaker 1: family members. And what struck me is people often say, oh,
Speaker 1: Trump's like a mob buss It's really true. I can
Speaker 1: say that because I prosecuted mob busses, and I draw
Speaker 1: those parallels by telling a lot my mob stories in
Speaker 1: the book as well. I want to ask you a
Speaker 1: question now about this news that we saw this week
Speaker 1: about the guy in the New York City FBI office.
Speaker 1: Explain this story to us because he was found to
Speaker 1: be like a Russian asset, right, yeah, I mean essentially
Speaker 1: he's that that's the accusation here that he was essentially
Speaker 1: sort of in bed with or working with this guy
Speaker 1: ar Posca, who is a Russian oligarch. And it's interesting
Speaker 1: to see everybody sort of the spin go into effect
Speaker 1: because people who believe that Mueller was doing the right
Speaker 1: thing are saying this is more proof this, This sort
Speaker 1: of undermines some of the failures of the Muller investigation
Speaker 1: and others are saying it's proof that there was a
Speaker 1: fix in place against Donald Trump. So I think this
Speaker 1: is a perfect or shot test. How would that be
Speaker 1: possible that somehow this was a fix against Donald Trump. Right,
Speaker 1: It's hard to articulate, but they're making the argument. I'll
Speaker 1: just believe it at that. Yeah, Okay, what he admits
Speaker 1: to feed on anything. Nowadays, everyone can take any story
Speaker 1: and just go see see and and you do see
Speaker 1: people saying, oh, this is this proves that Mueller was corrupt,
Speaker 1: or that people on Muller's team were corrupted, they were
Speaker 1: out to get Trump somehow. I just want to push
Speaker 1: back on this because what again, I am not an
Speaker 1: expert in any area of this, But my question for
Speaker 1: you is, there was a guy who worked in the
Speaker 1: FBI office who was largely in charge of Russia who
Speaker 1: turned out to be on Dara Pasca Russian oligarchs payroll.
Speaker 1: That guy was there when the FBI office put out
Speaker 1: the statement that said Trump had no ties to Russia exactly,
Speaker 1: I think it, and that they were investigating Hillary, right,
Speaker 1: I think the best they can do in that situation.
Speaker 1: I think the best people who are defending Trump can
Speaker 1: do It depends on how you cast a leg dar Apostca,
Speaker 1: because I think what they try to do is spin
Speaker 1: him as somehow being anti Trump or an enemy of
Speaker 1: Joe Biden or something like that, or pro Joe Biden.
Speaker 1: I should say, actually, so it doesn't make sense to
Speaker 1: me either, right, And also, I mean, if you're going
Speaker 1: to trace the two thousand sixteen election and Hillary's defeat,
Speaker 1: and look, Hillary certainly was not a perfect candidate and
Speaker 1: a lot of things went wrong, but certainly it did
Speaker 1: not help having the FBI with their finger on the
Speaker 1: scale toward Trump. Oh. I mean, look, James Comey will
Speaker 1: forever have this follow him. And I think Jim Comey,
Speaker 1: I think he I know, he violated FBI and d
Speaker 1: o J protocol by coming out when he did. You know,
Speaker 1: I'll leave it to the electoral experts whether that swung
Speaker 1: the election, but it was a damn close election and
Speaker 1: that announcement was damn influential, damn close to the election,
Speaker 1: So you know, people can draw their own conclusions. And
Speaker 1: by the way, you know, I do talk about this
Speaker 1: sort of in the book, not this specific incident, but
Speaker 1: how do o J sort of has this constant struggle
Speaker 1: to keep itself independent, keep its of neutral. But a
Speaker 1: lot of times when it comes to powerful people that
Speaker 1: they panic, or for reasons good or bad, end up
Speaker 1: doing the wrong thing. I mean, there seems like there's
Speaker 1: one of the story, right, I think. So, I think
Speaker 1: we're gonna learn more. I'm fascinated to watch this case
Speaker 1: as it develops. I was pretty shocked by that. Now
Speaker 1: with Rudy Giuliani, I mean, Rudy has said before and
Speaker 1: again you have to take what he says with a
Speaker 1: grain of salt, though, but he has said before that
Speaker 1: he had a relationship with his FBI office, right I mean, Rudy, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you have to. I think you have to take everything
Speaker 1: with with a pillar of salt. With Rudy, I think
Speaker 1: there are more shoes to drop on this one. I'm
Speaker 1: keeping my powder dry on this because there's a lot here,
Speaker 1: a lot of moving parts. And yeah, I certainly don't
Speaker 1: trust Rudy. I'm not trusting the spin here either. Did
Speaker 1: Trump spin? Yeah? I look. My initial reaction is that
Speaker 1: this is not helpful for for people who believe that
Speaker 1: this was a big hoax. I think, if if anything,
Speaker 1: I think it casts some questions on why did the
Speaker 1: investigation come up short? Why did Trump essentially why was
Speaker 1: he able to wriggle out of it? And why did
Speaker 1: the team let him wriggle out of it? Absolutely no question.
Speaker 1: So tell me what else you're watching now? Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1: Uh in terms of what's what's in the news, people
Speaker 1: getting away with it, what's in the FBI crime world?
Speaker 1: I mean, what are you saying? I mean, look, the
Speaker 1: biggest one is Donald Trump. I mean, I mean not
Speaker 1: that you know, not to go back to this, but
Speaker 1: we are nearing a point of no return, I think
Speaker 1: when it comes to the various Trump investigations, and I
Speaker 1: do talk about this in the book. And look, there's
Speaker 1: there's two big lanes that we need to focus on here.
Speaker 1: First of all, there's Fulton County in Georgia, the d
Speaker 1: A it is. And I write when I wrote the book,
Speaker 1: you know, when when we locked the book, it was
Speaker 1: four or five months ago, and I said, guys, there
Speaker 1: could be an indictment of Trump by the time this
Speaker 1: book comes out. And so the way I wrote the book,
Speaker 1: and I stand by every word of it, I say
Speaker 1: Trump may well get indicted by the time you're reading
Speaker 1: this book, and if so, I think the first one
Speaker 1: to get there will be the Fulton County d A
Speaker 1: Fani Willis, and I think that's absolutely true. I actually
Speaker 1: think it's close to all but inevitable that she will
Speaker 1: indicte him. Now, if you're rooting for a Trump indictment,
Speaker 1: that's great, you may get what you want. But I
Speaker 1: do talk in the book about how we have to
Speaker 1: be very careful here because otment is one thing, but
Speaker 1: a conviction is something very different, especially when you're talking
Speaker 1: about an indictment coming from a county level elected d A.
Speaker 1: I think there's going to be a serious challenge here,
Speaker 1: or serious legal challenge, to whether a county d A
Speaker 1: has the jurisdiction and authority to charge a former president.
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I'm quite critical of both
Speaker 1: Bonnie Willis and Merrick Garland four is taking this long.
Speaker 1: We are two plus years out from January six, not
Speaker 1: a single soul with any proximity to any political power
Speaker 1: has been charged with anything the church at all. Very
Speaker 1: louder Milk. I mean, there's so many congressmen who spoke
Speaker 1: at that rally. How about Johnny Eastman, how about Jeffrey Clark,
Speaker 1: how about me. And here's the thing. People say, well,
Speaker 1: you know, have patience, and these things take time. Two
Speaker 1: years is too long. Two years too long. Look, d
Speaker 1: o J has unlimited resources. They could have put any
Speaker 1: amount of manpower personnel on this they wanted. There's no
Speaker 1: reason they could have could not have gotten these cases
Speaker 1: taken down in late Yet here we are now early.
Speaker 1: Even if somebody indictes Donald Trump tomorrow early February, let's say,
Speaker 1: when do you think that case goes to trial. There's
Speaker 1: gonna be appeals, there's gonna be federal. You know, they're
Speaker 1: gonna try to take things federal. These cases, either case
Speaker 1: will not get to a jury before And what's the
Speaker 1: world gonna look like at that point? January six is
Speaker 1: gonna be three years old. Donald Trump is gonna be
Speaker 1: in the middle of the next campaign. And you could say, well,
Speaker 1: Trump is not very popular in Fulton County. Fine, but
Speaker 1: you still have a very very high I actually did
Speaker 1: this this math in in my book. There's a chance,
Speaker 1: given the way people voted, that you will have one
Speaker 1: Trump juror out of twelve in Fulton County. Scent chance
Speaker 1: you'll have two. And on down the line, you need
Speaker 1: a unanimous jury, and I think it's already hard enough.
Speaker 1: Put aside the strength of the proof, it's already hard
Speaker 1: enough to get twelve jurors unanimously beyond a reasonable doubt
Speaker 1: to say we're going to convict and imprison a former president. Now,
Speaker 1: add to the fact that it's going to be a
Speaker 1: leading candidate, possibly the nominee, presumptive nominee by the time
Speaker 1: of trial happens, You're gonna have a jury take out
Speaker 1: a leading presumptive nominee of one of the two major parties.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm saying these prosecutors
Speaker 1: have needlessly complicated their own task by the slow pace
Speaker 1: they've both moved. For sure, I mean, it does seem
Speaker 1: to me Merrick Garland was the wrong guy for this job.
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I'm very critical of Merrick Garland
Speaker 1: in the book. I have a chapter in the book
Speaker 1: called Waiting for Garland, which I guess is a play
Speaker 1: on waiting for good Oh or waiting for Goffman. Right.
Speaker 1: You know, there are people who are, Oh, he's gonna
Speaker 1: come someday, He's gonna save us. And here's the thing
Speaker 1: I do give Merrick Garland credit in the book for
Speaker 1: being a strong institutionalist. We were talking about Bill Barr before. Look,
Speaker 1: Merrick Garland, to his credit, has been honest. He's never
Speaker 1: lied to us. Kind of sad that we have to say.
Speaker 1: It's a good thing for that in ag has never
Speaker 1: lied to us. But after Bill Barr, we do have
Speaker 1: to say that. And he has tried to restore d
Speaker 1: OJ's integrity and independence. But my my criticism of Garland
Speaker 1: is he he moves too slow, be he has taken
Speaker 1: a myopic view of this case. He was always well,
Speaker 1: we're going to start at the bottom and work our
Speaker 1: way up. You don't have to do it that way.
Speaker 1: If you have a shot at the top, take a
Speaker 1: shot at the top. There's no reason he could have
Speaker 1: got to Cassidy Hutchinson. There's no reason he couldn't got
Speaker 1: to Mark short, to these other White House staffers who
Speaker 1: the January Sex Committee got to a year and a
Speaker 1: half ago. So I I don't think he was up
Speaker 1: for the task of bringing a strong, decisive, gutsy prosecution
Speaker 1: in a timely manner. Right, So the wrong person for
Speaker 1: the job. Tell us one salient fact from your book
Speaker 1: about how Trump got away with it. If that makes sense.
Speaker 1: I'll give you one one example that I I think
Speaker 1: I use early on in the book. So everyone knows
Speaker 1: that wealthy people, powerful people will use their money and
Speaker 1: their resources to build themselves these sort of legal dream teams.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put dream teams in heavy scare quotes here
Speaker 1: because a lot of times the reputations of these folks
Speaker 1: outstripped their actual talents. But you know, we all remember
Speaker 1: the O J Team, But the more recent one is
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein when he first got charged in down in Florida,
Speaker 1: the case that Alexander Acosta completely botched on purpose. We
Speaker 1: don't know how he botched it, right, And well, I
Speaker 1: I have a chapter on this in the book. He
Speaker 1: had this powerhouse team of Alan Dershowitz and Kenneth Starr
Speaker 1: and all these former U S attorneys, and I actually
Speaker 1: assemble evidence, and I make the argument in the book
Speaker 1: that the reason alex Acosta gave away that case is
Speaker 1: not because he was on the take. It's because he
Speaker 1: will stout. It's because he was too afraid of them.
Speaker 1: And I actually found that one of the main prosecutors
Speaker 1: who was running the case, she said that she believed
Speaker 1: that Acosta was basically just overwhelmed by these lawyers and
Speaker 1: didn't have the guts to take them on. And one
Speaker 1: of the victims lawyers independently said the same thing, and
Speaker 1: I think that holds true. Now, very critical of Acosta
Speaker 1: in this book, But now let me shift bass here.
Speaker 1: We all know that powerful people pay for lawyers. Fine,
Speaker 1: but what people may not realize, and I saw this
Speaker 1: all the time in my own career as a prosecutor,
Speaker 1: is real powerhouses, real smart powerhouses pay for other people's lawyers.
Speaker 1: Why to keep them from flipping on the That's Ferry Trump,
Speaker 1: ay exactly. So I used to see this all the
Speaker 1: time in my mob cases. I tell the specific story
Speaker 1: every time we would do a big mob take, all
Speaker 1: the guys would be represented by lawyers who were chosen
Speaker 1: and paid for by the mob. And I tell his
Speaker 1: story about one of these cases where a lower ranking
Speaker 1: guy but a potentially very valuable co operator wanted to
Speaker 1: flip but he couldn't do it there his lawyer, because
Speaker 1: his lawyer was paid for by the mob. So he
Speaker 1: sent his girlfriend on this like secret backdoor mission to
Speaker 1: the FBI. Don't let us know, and I won't give
Speaker 1: away the ending book, just like Cassidy Hutchinson. You are
Speaker 1: right with me exactly, and that is exactly the parallel
Speaker 1: that I draw. I said, look at Cassidy Hutchinson. Her
Speaker 1: lawyer was chosen and paid for by the Trump, a
Speaker 1: Trump affiliated entity, and while she had that lawyer, she
Speaker 1: said she did not feel like she could come forward fully.
Speaker 1: In fact, she actually lied her first interview with that lawyer.
Speaker 1: There they asked her, do you know anything about Trump
Speaker 1: getting into some sort of scrape with the Secret Service
Speaker 1: on and she said no, never heard anything about it,
Speaker 1: you know. And then only when she broke free from
Speaker 1: this guy, Stephen Passantino and got herself her own lawyer,
Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor, did she fully come clean. And so
Speaker 1: I talked about that tactic, and let me one more
Speaker 1: thing on that, Molly, this is very common. CEOs corporations
Speaker 1: do this all the time. And and here's where it
Speaker 1: gets really maybe frustrating. For a long time, d OJ's
Speaker 1: policy was, if you are an organization and you are
Speaker 1: paying for lawyers providing lawyers for other people, we're going
Speaker 1: to count that against you. That counts as a strike
Speaker 1: against cooperation. When we're assessing whether you've been cooperative. But
Speaker 1: in two thousand eight, d o J completely reversed that policy.
Speaker 1: It was just an internal memo and it said, from
Speaker 1: now on, we're not going to count that against you.
Speaker 1: And it's ridiculous, sort of Pollyanna logic. They say, we
Speaker 1: believe that corporate America and big corporations have the same
Speaker 1: interests as we do in full transparency efect. Really you
Speaker 1: think Enron wants to wants to cooperate, you know, just
Speaker 1: like the same as you do. And so they changed
Speaker 1: their policy. And you know what, since two thousand and eight,
Speaker 1: we've had democratic d o J administrations, we've had Republican
Speaker 1: d o J administrations, Obama, Trump, Biden, no one has
Speaker 1: changed that policy. They've left it in place, and it
Speaker 1: favors powerful people. So interesting. Thank you so much, Ellie.
Speaker 1: I hope he'll come back. Thanks great to join you.
Speaker 1: I would happily come back anytime, Jesse Cannon. So the
Speaker 1: Republicans are real mad that Biden didn't shoot down that
Speaker 1: balloon fast enough, even though Mr Trump had it happened
Speaker 1: three times and he never shot it down. The spy
Speaker 1: balloon or the United States. Biden asked the military to
Speaker 1: shoot it down on Wednesday, according to what he said
Speaker 1: and the reporting, and the military says, wait until it's
Speaker 1: not overpopulated areas, and they decided to shoot it down
Speaker 1: on Saturday. Republicans used the following days to pose with
Speaker 1: guns and complain about Biden. In fact, one Republican says
Speaker 1: Biden should be impeached because of this. I mean, you
Speaker 1: just can't win with these people. First of all, I mean,
Speaker 1: and more importantly than anything, besides all the gun fetitalizations
Speaker 1: of guns, um, it is like you mean, carry Lake
Speaker 1: d and Mt. All pretty much everyone you can think of,
Speaker 1: posing with guns. But ultimately the balloon is way way
Speaker 1: way up there and you cannot shoot it. And in fact,
Speaker 1: some law enforcement agencies warned that you really like shooting
Speaker 1: into a hurricane, Trying to shoot a weather balloon that
Speaker 1: is many miles up in the sky is not a
Speaker 1: good plan. And so because of all of these many different,
Speaker 1: very stupid things, this is our moment of funky. That's
Speaker 1: it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday,
Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday to her the best minds and politics
Speaker 1: makes sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what
Speaker 1: you've heard, please send it to a friend and keep
Speaker 1: the conversation going. And again thanks for listening.