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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and the Biden economy continues to exceed

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Speaker 1: expectations with blockbuster job numbers. We have a fantastic show

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Speaker 1: for you today. White House Press Secretary Karine Jean Pierre

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Speaker 1: will explain to us what it means to be press secretary.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll have CNN legal analyst Ellie Honig about his

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Speaker 1: new book Untouchable How Powerful People Get Away with It.

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Speaker 1: But first we have the host of Crash Course, Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Opinion editor Tim O'Brien. Welcome to Fast Politics. Tim O'Brien, Molly,

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Speaker 1: this is like reality and fun any time you open it,

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Speaker 1: So thanks for having me on. That's a bad sign.

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Speaker 1: If I am your fun, then you're in trouble. No,

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Speaker 1: that's not true. I've heard that actually a lot, and

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Speaker 1: I appreciate it every time I hear it. So there's

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Speaker 1: a spy balloon over Montana. Ryan Zinky. You may remember

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Speaker 1: him as having one of the few people who had

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Speaker 1: to resign from the Trump administration for corruption. That guy,

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Speaker 1: or as I like to think of him, the guy

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Speaker 1: who looks just like the Grinch is in Congress. Now. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the path out of power is to suck up the

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, engage in a corrupt activity, to part for

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Speaker 1: a while and come back with more power in Congress. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because that's the GOP function exactly. So basically, all of

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Speaker 1: the Republicans who served Montana, the one congressman, two senators

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Speaker 1: are all and also Marjorie Taylorgreen are like, shoot, the

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Speaker 1: Chinese is spy balloon out of the sky. Let's go. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Balloon one that it got dubbed this by balloon is

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Speaker 1: just really rich. And I think, you know the fact

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Speaker 1: that we've got into the run, duck and cover phase

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Speaker 1: of China paranoia. You know, I'm pretty hawkish about China.

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Speaker 1: I think we should be vigilant about China. I think

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Speaker 1: they're doing aggressive things in the South China Sea. I

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Speaker 1: think they're a threat to stability in Asia. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think that they haven't made good on their trade promises.

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Speaker 1: But I think this balloon thing is the most absurd

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Speaker 1: thing imaginable. For one, I don't think there's anything this

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Speaker 1: if this balloon was equipped with special cameras or whatever

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Speaker 1: else they think is on it, and My understanding is

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Speaker 1: it could not capture anything on the ground. It's too

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Speaker 1: far up. Well, the Chinese satellites couldn't already capture. The

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Speaker 1: Chinese are now saying it's a weather balloon, which we

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Speaker 1: probably shouldn't trust that either, but I sort of don't

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Speaker 1: really care. And what's more interesting to me in this

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Speaker 1: whole thing is it it is like the scare tactic

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Speaker 1: phase of our relationship with China's anything you can latch

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Speaker 1: onto just sort of say, look up in the sky,

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Speaker 1: your barbecuing, and there's a spy balloons to political effect,

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Speaker 1: right right, right, no question, And it does seem to me.

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Speaker 1: You know, Republicans, it's funny because they were very against

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not funny, and it's also not what

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Speaker 1: any kind of funny, but they were very, very against

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Speaker 1: any kind of conflict with Russia. Vladimir Putin, he's our guy,

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Speaker 1: but they are really into the idea of going to

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Speaker 1: war with China. And then yet, you know, Nancy Pelosi

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Speaker 1: goes to Taiwan, and Republicans, more than I think two

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Speaker 1: dozen of whom in the prior two years service it

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Speaker 1: had gone to Taiwan jump all over her as as

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Speaker 1: sort of in artfully rattling the saber against China when

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Speaker 1: they all have been spending a lot of time rattling

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Speaker 1: the ship saber against China. The trouble with dissecting anything

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Speaker 1: Republicans do right now is anything that they would consider

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Speaker 1: to be policy goals or policy statements constantly get either

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Speaker 1: undermined or made entirely opaque of the fact that they'll

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Speaker 1: do anything to engage in culture wars or to find

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Speaker 1: a reason to criticize the Democrats, even if they're criticizing

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Speaker 1: Democrats for behavior they've engaged in themselves. Right now, one

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Speaker 1: could ask if this balloon fiasco is a way to

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Speaker 1: distract against these incredible, humongous job numbers. Can we talk

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Speaker 1: about these job numbers? So, you know, unemployment is lowitz

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Speaker 1: but it has been since nine the unemployed rate coming

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Speaker 1: out of this existential threat of the pandemic lockdowns, there

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Speaker 1: are you know, there are more jobs in the economy

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Speaker 1: now than there were prior to the pandemic. And I

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Speaker 1: think two things about it. One is, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't think presidents exercise a lot of control over the economy.

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Speaker 1: They set some parameters, and I think the way the

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Speaker 1: federal government operates, creates a you know, a hospital bit

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Speaker 1: of environment for the economy to thrive if things are

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Speaker 1: done right. During the whole time that inflation was soaring,

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Speaker 1: Republicans were on other way to try to tag Biden

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Speaker 1: as as blowing up the Trump economy and hurting average

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Speaker 1: working class Americans. Certainly, and the reality is, I think

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Speaker 1: inflation has peaked, I think it's moderating. The job market

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Speaker 1: is strong. We'll see where this goes. The stock market

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Speaker 1: right now, this is an interesting data point at this point,

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Speaker 1: right now, yesterday, I have to look at the numbers

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Speaker 1: again today. Yesterday it had grown at exactly the same

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Speaker 1: amount over exactly the same period of time during Biden's

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Speaker 1: presidency as it had during Trump's. So for all the

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Speaker 1: Trump pieces who said the body is bad for the

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Speaker 1: stock market, bad for the economy, bad from inflation, bad

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Speaker 1: for working in class Americans, there's there's an avalanche of

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Speaker 1: data that just tells them, get your head out of

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Speaker 1: the sand, exactly. But I want to ask you about

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Speaker 1: these jobs numbers for a minute, because they're actually too hot, right.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain this a little bit? Wow, one, can

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Speaker 1: jobs numbers ever be too high? The only people that

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Speaker 1: say that our bond traders and the FED, the FETE

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Speaker 1: is worried about a hot economy. They're worried about inflation.

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Speaker 1: They're worried that a strong workforce will put pressure on

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Speaker 1: demand and that will cause inflation to spike. So you

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Speaker 1: have the FED fighting against the economy in a weird

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Speaker 1: way to try to cool inflation. Well, I think you

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Speaker 1: have the FED weighing. I don't think that's the way

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Speaker 1: to think about it. I think the FED would always

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Speaker 1: say their guardians of the long term health of the U.

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Speaker 1: S economy, and I think that's the best of them.

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Speaker 1: All think that way, and their public servants in that regard.

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Speaker 1: But what they kind of constantly weigh is rising inflation

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Speaker 1: versus full employment, and they see their mandate is trying

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Speaker 1: to balance those two things. The problem with the inflation

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Speaker 1: data that they're freaked out by is it spiked in

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Speaker 1: an unusually fast way, and there's a possibility that it

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Speaker 1: might dissipate in an unusually fast way. There was you know,

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Speaker 1: people always talk about how political pulsters just really never

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Speaker 1: really know and they get it wrong, and the same

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Speaker 1: is true of economists. There's so much we don't know,

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Speaker 1: but Inflation may have spiked because COVID bloke the supply chain.

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Speaker 1: Inflation may spike because of massive and necessary government spending

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Speaker 1: it to cushion the impact of the pandemic or excessive

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Speaker 1: or intense demand from works. They don't really know. So

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Speaker 1: they're trying to say how tough should we be to

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Speaker 1: bring inflation down before it spirals out of control in

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Speaker 1: a way that hurts the economy. But the problem is

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Speaker 1: this is not a normal inflationary environment. So they're trying

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Speaker 1: to say how long do we have to be tough?

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Speaker 1: And I don't think we should think of a strong

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Speaker 1: job market as bad. We want to stop market to

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Speaker 1: be really, really strong, no, no question, But it is

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Speaker 1: the tension is quite interesting among the you know, the pinheads.

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Speaker 1: Interesting to me? Is that fair? You know? But I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't mean that about you. I mean that about

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Speaker 1: the FED, right. I mean, I think a year or

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Speaker 1: two from now, people will look back and said, did

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Speaker 1: they get it right? And should they have been as

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Speaker 1: spooked by inflation as they were or not? And if

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Speaker 1: they're overly spooked that they could cause a recession if

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Speaker 1: they had rates too high, right, no question, And that

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Speaker 1: I think is a really good point, and that's something

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Speaker 1: that we're all I think watching. So I want to

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Speaker 1: ask you, now, we are in this pre healthscape Trump

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Speaker 1: is in Republicans, I mean, what is I mean, just

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Speaker 1: explained to me this factory and then I want to

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Speaker 1: get to Stormy Daniels. Okay, by the way, they're bringing

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Speaker 1: back all the first season characters right exactly, and I

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Speaker 1: think actually maybe the greater effect legally, but we'll get there. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the best way to understand Republicans right now is that

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Speaker 1: they're in a hostage video right Donald Trump is filming them.

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Speaker 1: He's got this, I think, a still unwavering hold on

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Speaker 1: about of the Republican voting base, and that makes him

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Speaker 1: a power broker in primaries. Is not somebody who can

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Speaker 1: pull the national coalition together. And you know, there's this

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Speaker 1: debate of will he repeat and because the GOP field

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Speaker 1: is so fractured, he'll have enough to get over the

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Speaker 1: top and then be able to win again because he'll

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Speaker 1: sew it together in a few states as he did

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Speaker 1: against Hillary Clinton. I think the American electorate has become

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Speaker 1: wise enough, not maybe wise enough, but but you know,

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Speaker 1: wise to what he represents at the national level. And

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Speaker 1: he's lost three national referendums, you know, in the last

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Speaker 1: three electoral cycles. And the Republicans don't know what to

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Speaker 1: do about that because I think they know he's not

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Speaker 1: viable nationally, but they know they can't cut him off

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Speaker 1: because they'll they'll need his mojo during the primary season.

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Speaker 1: I think that's clearly what's happening. So now we have

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Speaker 1: this Stormy Daniels situation coming back. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about Alvin Bragg. Alvin Bragg had a case

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Speaker 1: that was a case of inflating the value of the

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Speaker 1: assets basically the fraud banks right to defraud banks. And

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Speaker 1: now he decided not to keep going with that, and

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of controversy there and a lot

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Speaker 1: of people asking what was he doing. Now Alvin Bragg

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Speaker 1: is maybe back. I mean, do you think the emperor

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Speaker 1: has no clothes? Do you think this is real? Tell

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Speaker 1: me what you think? I think this is real. I

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Speaker 1: don't think they'd be spinning their wheels there. You know,

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Speaker 1: they're doubling down on trying to get Alan Weizelberg to flip.

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Speaker 1: I think against Trump. They put enormous pressure on Jeff mcconnie.

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Speaker 1: You know, people think of the Trump organization as like

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Speaker 1: an organization, it's actually an oxymoron, right. It's neither organized

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Speaker 1: nor very large. It was a small shop of a

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Speaker 1: few people that did what Trump told them to do.

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Speaker 1: So any of these people that he's investigating are people

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Speaker 1: who after we're working on in the direction of Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: I think he felt in the first phase when Mark

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Speaker 1: Palmerant's laughed, you know, well regarded prosecutor who's in the

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Speaker 1: office and resigned because he felt Bragg wouldn't bring a

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Speaker 1: prosecution of Trump if they didn't have the evidence to

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Speaker 1: prove that Trump had intent when the banks were allegedly defrauded,

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Speaker 1: and there was a big split in that office on

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Speaker 1: that case that that that route didn't Some felt they

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Speaker 1: had the evidence, some felt they didn't, and they parted ways.

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Speaker 1: I think he's now looking at an accounting fraud case,

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Speaker 1: and I think I think he believes he has the

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Speaker 1: evidence to establish intent around Donald Trump, certainly among his minions,

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Speaker 1: which is why they all look so disastrously like beating

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Speaker 1: into the ground. Whenever there's photos of them coming out

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Speaker 1: of the courthouses, or you know, it's like Kelly's Heroes

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Speaker 1: or something. Some old movie of like you know, guys

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Speaker 1: in prison who are sprung to go into battle. So

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Speaker 1: you think this is a real case and they can

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Speaker 1: get him on this or they can do something. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if they can get him. I don't think.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the States and this are so high that

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Speaker 1: I don't think any prosecutor in the country right now

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Speaker 1: is going to go lightly about their work. And I

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Speaker 1: think we've seen, uh, you know, Fonnie Willis go diligently

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Speaker 1: about her work. I hope Mark Garland is going diligently

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Speaker 1: about his. He appears to be. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: that Tish James a ge New York is, and I

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Speaker 1: think brag is and I think he feels I would

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Speaker 1: look at this and I would say he feels he's

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Speaker 1: got a case now, but it's a different one than

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Speaker 1: what was given to him when he first came into

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Speaker 1: the d A's office. It is weird, you know, I've

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Speaker 1: written a lot about this, You've written a lot about this.

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Speaker 1: It does feel kind of strange that here's Trump. You know,

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Speaker 1: he is, I mean, by far, the most criminal president

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Speaker 1: we've ever had, and he's had no official anything again,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's free to run again. He's got no,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's not. He has yet to be indicted.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is a bit strange that he's in

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Speaker 1: this position of two years later. Yeah, I mean I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, part of it is the problem of white

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Speaker 1: collar crime generally in the US is our system is

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Speaker 1: almost built to make you know, perpetrators of white collar

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Speaker 1: crimes variously defined as subject too much higher burden of proof.

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Speaker 1: And somebody who rips off the seven eleven, and and

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Speaker 1: then secondarily, he's got the powers of the presidency. I

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Speaker 1: wish prosecutors would sort of get rid of this the

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Speaker 1: majesty of the office kind of thinking and just treat

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Speaker 1: him like you would treat any other target. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: think the investigation was undermined by Mueller's deference to the

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Speaker 1: White House, and that's protected Trump, you know, And and

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Speaker 1: it's he sort of just stumbled into that accidentally and

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Speaker 1: and then discovered that it was yet another ring of

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Speaker 1: fire that could keep justice from crawling up as to

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Speaker 1: his doorstep. Yeah, I mean, it definitely true. So I

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Speaker 1: want to ask you about David Pecker, one of our

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Speaker 1: we haven't just not the first time we've talked about him.

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Speaker 1: He has really skated That's another you know, that's another

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Speaker 1: amazing thing is he is in the midst and in

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Speaker 1: the middle of not just the stormy Daniels, you know,

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Speaker 1: matter and finding cushions for Trump's alleged lovers. He spent

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Speaker 1: years weaponizing his media properties on Trump's behalf. But you

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Speaker 1: know that's not a crime in this country, by the way,

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Speaker 1: since you and I are both in the media. But

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Speaker 1: he has certainly fallen reputationally in his station in the world.

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Speaker 1: I think has changed. Not that it was ever on

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Speaker 1: an elevated plane. It was gonna say, I mean the

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Speaker 1: guy who wants the examiner. Yeah, when you're already in

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Speaker 1: the tar pit, how far down can you go? We

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Speaker 1: find ourselves like in this run up to this election,

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Speaker 1: and I just want to know, Like, it does seem

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Speaker 1: like Trump could win, but it also seems like Trump

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Speaker 1: could absolutely not win this primary. I think Trump could

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Speaker 1: win the primary and not win the national election. And

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Speaker 1: I think the Republicans deserve that dilemma because they've lacked

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Speaker 1: the courage and integrity to do otherwise. You know, I

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Speaker 1: think if the economy had been unwinding now continuously and

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Speaker 1: inflation was on a wild rampage, I think it would

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Speaker 1: have been hard for Biden to be the standard bearer

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Speaker 1: for the Democrats. You know, he's obviously like a disastrous

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Speaker 1: public speaker and often cringe worthy, but he is stuck

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Speaker 1: by I think programmatically what he and his advisors and

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Speaker 1: a meaningful block of Democrats and independent voters want to

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Speaker 1: hear and see legislatively and then on a policy track.

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Speaker 1: And I think he'll probably be the standard bearer. I

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Speaker 1: mean that's a really good question, right because it's like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, how do you argue the policy? You know,

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Speaker 1: the economy is coming back, There's a lot of good

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Speaker 1: stuff happening. You know, Republicans when they say, like things

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Speaker 1: are a disaster, they make up stuff that you know,

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Speaker 1: it's five billion dollars worth of CRT being taught in

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Speaker 1: nursery schools. I mean, you know, like I just I

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Speaker 1: wonder if you know, if all of those other things

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Speaker 1: are okay, maybe it doesn't matter that, you know, Biden

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Speaker 1: is imperfect. I think that could very well be the case.

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Speaker 1: And I think that voters actually made that trade off

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Speaker 1: in twenty you know, and you know, voters rescued us,

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Speaker 1: and they rescued us in the mids terms and they're

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Speaker 1: gonna rescue us again. The media and law enforcement other

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Speaker 1: institutions played a role, I think in keeping a finger

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Speaker 1: in the dike around Trump is um, but it was

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Speaker 1: ultimately voters who had to rescue us. I felt very

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Speaker 1: pessimistic prior to the mid terms and me too, and

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Speaker 1: I was really happy to see that, Hey, people are

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Speaker 1: paying attention, and so now I feel a little more

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Speaker 1: optimistic about From your mouth to God's ear, thank you

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Speaker 1: very much, Tim of Iran, thank you for having Karine.

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Speaker 1: Jean Pierre is the White House Press secretary. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Fast Politics, Karne, Hello Molly, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: having me Fast Politic as well. We'll be fast. We'll

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Speaker 1: be fast. We'll be fast. So you are a press secretary.

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Speaker 1: It's a pretty big deal. It's a pretty enormous job.

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Speaker 1: Will you explain to our listeners who are very politically

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Speaker 1: savvy but might not completely understand what is the job.

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Speaker 1: So the job is being essentially the top chief spokesperson

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Speaker 1: for the president of the United States. That's the simplest,

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Speaker 1: simplest way to explain it, which is I have the

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Speaker 1: honor and the privilege to be at a podium for

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Speaker 1: about an hour almost every day, five days a week

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Speaker 1: at the most, to talk about the president's priorities, the

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Speaker 1: president's to how is he delivering for the American people,

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Speaker 1: And then I take those questions from the members of

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Speaker 1: the press on things that they want to ask about,

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Speaker 1: either that particular policy or the news of the day.

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Speaker 1: And honestly, Molly, it is a privilege and an honor

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Speaker 1: to be able to do that every single day for

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Speaker 1: the most powerful leader in the world, the President of

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Speaker 1: the United States. Sometimes I have to pinch myself because

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Speaker 1: it is indeed something that I would have never have

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Speaker 1: dreamed of, and I take that responsibility Molly, so seriously.

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Speaker 1: It is very heavy on my shoulders and heavy weight

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Speaker 1: on my shoulder because I want to make sure that

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Speaker 1: I'm doing it in an effective way so the American

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Speaker 1: people know what we're doing dealing with, know what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, and also making sure that I'm capturing the

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Speaker 1: President's voice and capturing also what it is that he

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Speaker 1: wants me to talk about as it relates to the

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Speaker 1: policies that we're trying to push forward. Something I think

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Speaker 1: people may not know is that the press is in

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Speaker 1: sort of the same area as the rest of the

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Speaker 1: White House staff. Can you explain that a little bit,

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Speaker 1: because that's sort of interesting. Yeah. So I always say

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Speaker 1: that we are the one department office on the campus,

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Speaker 1: on the White House campus where our constituents are with us.

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Speaker 1: Our constituents are right here on campus. And what I

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Speaker 1: mean about that is I just mentioned the White House

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Speaker 1: brief rom room. People know the White House brief Room

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Speaker 1: and is a well known room or part of the

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Speaker 1: White House, uh that many people who come on tours

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Speaker 1: that is one of the places, it's like the Oval office,

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Speaker 1: the White House Briefing Room that they want to see

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Speaker 1: for themselves. And because of that, there are some White

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Speaker 1: House correspondents and White House reporters or White House producers

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Speaker 1: that actually have offices and cubicles right kind of under

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Speaker 1: like to the back under on the floor of the

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Speaker 1: Priestsent Briefing Room, but also um in the basement. And

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Speaker 1: it is certain publications have boots. It's been a lot

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Speaker 1: of it is historical how long they've been there, and

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Speaker 1: so they actually worked there. They have their work hours

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Speaker 1: in their boots in their offices right there in the

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Speaker 1: in the White House. And then some folks, I know

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Speaker 1: you said, your folks are pretty politically savvy obviously if

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Speaker 1: they're listening to you and want to hear news about

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Speaker 1: what's happening in d C and across the country. There

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Speaker 1: is the White House North Lawn, which is right to

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Speaker 1: the right of the White House in front of the

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Speaker 1: White House, and um, they're the White House law and

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Speaker 1: has all of the cameras and the TVs, and you'll

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Speaker 1: see a lot of the White House correspondence, a lot

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Speaker 1: of the White House reporters standing doing their reporting, and

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Speaker 1: you see the White House in the back behind them

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Speaker 1: as the backdrop. And so those are the those reporters

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Speaker 1: as well. A lot of them spend most of their

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Speaker 1: day right here at the White House doing their job,

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Speaker 1: doing their work, coming to the briefing room and reporting.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel that your parents are okay that you're

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Speaker 1: not a doctor? Now? Do you feel that they've given

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Speaker 1: you the okay? They have given me the okay? I

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Speaker 1: have incre credibly proud parents. My mom, I know, watches

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Speaker 1: the briefing whenever it is on and is always proud

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Speaker 1: and it's always cheering me on. Will let me know

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Speaker 1: that she watched the briefing, brags about me. Here's from

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Speaker 1: her friends about me and it's just incredibly proud. I

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Speaker 1: brought my mom to the state dinner, which is the

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Speaker 1: first date dinner that the president had in his presidency.

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Speaker 1: Obviously COVID had slowed us down a bit for the

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Speaker 1: first year and a half or so. That was France, right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: President ma Quan and Bridget his wife. They came in December,

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Speaker 1: December one, and my mom was my plus one, and

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Speaker 1: she was so thrilled and so happy, and she kept

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Speaker 1: on she cried a couple of times, and she and

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Speaker 1: the next day she told me, you just made me

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Speaker 1: so happy. You just don't understand how happy you made me.

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Speaker 1: And she met the president for the first time, which

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Speaker 1: I hadn't realized that she hadn't met him yet, and

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Speaker 1: she went up to him and said, I love you

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Speaker 1: so much. He's so he's just so good. President's just

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Speaker 1: president body. It's just so good at And he opened

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Speaker 1: his arms and she put her head in his chest

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Speaker 1: and he hugged her really really tight and said, so

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Speaker 1: lovely to meet you, and of course said all the

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Speaker 1: nice things about me, which he's very good at as well.

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Speaker 1: And it's a moment that is one of the most

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Speaker 1: beautiful moments that I have experienced um with my mom.

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Speaker 1: We have a photo of it that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: get printed and framed so she could have in her home.

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Speaker 1: So I want to ask you. We had this administration,

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Speaker 1: the last administration, the one before this, otherwise known as

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Speaker 1: the Former Guy, and they were really worked hard to

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Speaker 1: demonize as the main stream media, to say that the

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Speaker 1: media was the enemy of the people, and some of

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Speaker 1: it worked. How do you interface with the media in

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Speaker 1: a world where the media, you know, one party really

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Speaker 1: does hate the media and it's unfortunate what we saw.

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Speaker 1: Let me just call that out very clearly, what we

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Speaker 1: saw from the last administration and with what they try

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Speaker 1: to do to the media, which is journalism, is we

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Speaker 1: are a democracy. Journalism is important and it's something that

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Speaker 1: we should fight for, and the president fights for here

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Speaker 1: in this country and across and speaks to it globally

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Speaker 1: right across the world. When we see a journalist that's

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Speaker 1: being attacked or not allowed to report freely, not allowed

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Speaker 1: to do their journalistic duties, we have to call that

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Speaker 1: out because having a democracy is important. So that's one

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Speaker 1: piece I think we need to call that out. We

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Speaker 1: have we have course corrected, if you will, and have

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Speaker 1: hopefully brought back a healthier relationship, and we understand what

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Speaker 1: it means for them to to be in the room

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Speaker 1: and to take those questions. Look, I think, Molly, regardless

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Speaker 1: of who is in this role or which party is

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Speaker 1: in power outside of the last administration, right, which is

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Speaker 1: what we saw, there's a natural tension right between the

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Speaker 1: press and any administration. And the person in my job

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Speaker 1: is the focal point of that, right and so and

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Speaker 1: and so. What's why I want to be also clear,

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Speaker 1: is that tension. I think that tension is actually very good.

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Speaker 1: It is a healthy part of our democracy. The press

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Speaker 1: can and should question the government. That is their job

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Speaker 1: what they should do. They should seek the truth and

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Speaker 1: hold the powerful accountable. Right, that is what they should do.

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Speaker 1: And I know some in the press, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't like my answers every day, But that is part

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Speaker 1: of the give and take of the job. And that

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Speaker 1: is not unique to me at all. I think that

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Speaker 1: has been true for every press secretary specifically, I think

430
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 1: as well the modern day ones. Since our briefings are televised,

431
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: the briefing being televised kind of also changes that dynamic

432
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, oh, no question. I also think that.

433
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: I mean, the job here is for the media to

434
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: be contentious in some ways. Well, I think, like I said,

435
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: a healthy back and forth and there's always going to

436
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: be tensioned. That makes sense. And they should question the government,

437
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 1: they should question what it is that we're trying to

438
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 1: do and on behalf of the American people. And you

439
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 1: know what, I appreciate that that's my job. That is

440
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: my job. I don't take anything personally because like I said,

441
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: every Press secretary has had this experience, and so that's

442
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 1: kind of how I how I leave it. I just

443
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: do my job, do it the best of my abilities,

444
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,719
Speaker 1: making sure that two things that I really focus on

445
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: focus on is communicating the president's agenda to the American people.

446
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 1: The American people truly truly matter, right, because that's who

447
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: we're working on, behalf of h and making sure that

448
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: we do have that that democracy right, that back and forth,

449
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: that journalism that is so important, and how they report

450
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 1: back and being transparent and talking about the work and

451
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 1: what we're trying to do here. It is interesting though

452
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 1: that like for example, with the economy, this has actually

453
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: been quite a much more positive economic cycle than many

454
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: people thought. You know, inflation looks like it's it's you know,

455
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: moving in the right direction. There's a lot of good

456
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: news in there, and there's been some hesitation on the

457
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: part of the main tree media. I feel like to

458
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: celebrate that good news. Let me just echo a little

459
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: bit of what you just said. The President's economic policy

460
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: is working. The president economic policy is working, and the

461
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 1: data shows that you talked about inflation. We are seeing

462
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: inflation cool for the last six months. We're seeing unemployed

463
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: unemployment rate at a rate that we haven't seen in

464
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: more than fifty years. We are seeing historical legislative successes

465
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: that we haven't seen since lb J. When you think

466
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: about infrastructure really pushing. We pushed a bipartisan infrastructure legislation

467
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: that is now law that is going to change communities

468
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 1: across the country, something that was a joke. Infrastructure Week

469
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: was a joke in the last administration. Right, Remember, many

470
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 1: presidents have tried to do this and we're not able

471
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: to do this, and we were able to do it.

472
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: And let's not forget the American Rescue Plan, which was

473
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: the first piece of legislation that really helped us get

474
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 1: the economy back on its feet. Many people said we

475
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: couldn't do it. We got it done with only Democrats.

476
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 1: The bipartisan Infrastructure Legislation. Many people said, get oh you,

477
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: there's no way you're gonna be able to get that

478
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: done in a bipartisan way. No one you're going to

479
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: be able to do that. Do that. The President got

480
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: it done. The Inflation Reduction Act, which is going to

481
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: lower premiums, lower healthcare costs. It's going to really truly

482
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: help Americans with healthcare, with fighting climate change, right with

483
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: making sure that we're lowering costs even on energy, and

484
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: creating jobs. I didn't even say that creating jobs. That's

485
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: what people said, There's no way you're gonna do it,

486
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: and the President got it done. The Veterans piece of

487
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: legislation that deals with an issue that veterans have had

488
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: to deal with for a long time. That got done

489
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: in a bipartisans the way. The Chips and Science Act,

490
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: that got done. And let's not forget one of the

491
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: last pieces this president signed in the last session was

492
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: the Marriage Equality Act, which was done in a bipartisan way.

493
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: And guess what people said that wouldn't be get done.

494
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: The Gun Violence Prevention Act. Yeah, I never thought that

495
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: would get done. Yeah, the Gun Violence Prevention Act. People

496
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 1: didn't think that was gonna be to do. It the

497
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: most significant piece of legislation to happen in thirty years

498
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: on gun violence. We still have a lot of work

499
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: to do, but that got done. But to your point,

500
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: it is we constantly have to push, We constantly have

501
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 1: to lay out how it is that this president has

502
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,239
Speaker 1: transformationally change how we deal with the economy. Instead of

503
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: doing trickle down, which we don't believe in, he doesn't

504
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: believe in, we're building economy from the bottom up, middle out,

505
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: which is not leaving anyone behind. But you're right, it

506
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: is very difficult. It is very difficult to get that

507
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: out there. And uh um. And so it is our

508
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: job right to talk directly to the American people, to

509
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: talk to your viewers, and as well you use other

510
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: mediums to have those conversations so we can really broaden

511
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: and grow our platform, our audience. So this is why

512
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: it's so important for me to talk to you, Molly,

513
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: as well as you know, talk to the folks in

514
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: the briefing room, but also to have conversations with folks

515
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: like yourself. As I mean, I interviewed the Vice President

516
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: and it's impossible to quantify what it means to be first,

517
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: but you too are first in a number of different

518
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: ways as Press secretary. Do you sort of take that

519
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: in and say, like, people might give me a harder

520
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: time and I just I mean people give me a

521
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: very hard time too. I'm not the first of anything,

522
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: but I just try not to personalize that. I mean,

523
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: is that what you do or do you have some

524
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: other I stay focused on my job. I think historians

525
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: and history will certainly write about that and have their opinion.

526
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: My job is to focus on the work at hand.

527
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: There's a lot of noise, Molly, as you know, there's

528
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: a lot of noise every day, a lot of noise.

529
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: My job, I believe, is to tune it out. I

530
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: stay focused on what I can control, which is how

531
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: I communicate from the podium about what the administration is

532
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: doing every day to help the American public and serving

533
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: in these roles are not about me, It really isn't.

534
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: It is not about me. It's not a about the

535
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: president even It's about the public who we are. We're

536
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: here to serve. That's what it's about. And I stay

537
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: really focused on that and tune out the rest. I'll

538
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: add a few personal anecdotes because I think it's really important.

539
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: You know, we're in a bubble here in d C,

540
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: and sometimes I don't really pay attention. You were talking

541
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: about being a first and the communities that I represent,

542
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: and sometimes I forget that, And I mean I inherently

543
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,479
Speaker 1: know it, right, clearly, I know it, but sometimes I

544
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: forget how much me being at that podium does touch people.

545
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: I often encounter folks outside of this bubble, and not

546
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: even too much outside of the bubble, right, even the

547
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: suburbs of the d m V. I go out there

548
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: and I have people who cry, who tell me how

549
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: important it is to see me, and it's and it

550
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: is people of people from from various backgrounds, right. It

551
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: could be someone young in the black community, or someone

552
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: in a different community, or it doesn't matter, or the

553
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: LGBTQ community. It is surprising to me how seeing me

554
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,959
Speaker 1: at the podium had touched so many people in a

555
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: way that's inspiring, in a way that changes their lives.

556
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: So if I'm able to do that at the same time, Molly,

557
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: that is great, and I and I honor that, and I,

558
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: like I said, I started off this interview saying It

559
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: is a privilege and an honor to be doing this job.

560
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: And if I can, on top of it, if I

561
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: can inspire people, that's great. That is great, and that

562
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: is I think important. If you think about how the

563
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: President thinks about things, right, if you think about how

564
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: President Biden and Dr Biden think about the importance of diversity,

565
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: they think about how representation matters. They think they thought

566
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: about what it meant to have someone like me at

567
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: the podium, and it speaks to how diverse this administration

568
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: is and the most diverse in modern presidents. I think

569
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: that says actually more about them, more about the president

570
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: than me. Yeah, I absolutely think that's true. You have

571
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: questions that you can't answer for any number of reasons.

572
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: How do you deal with that? I deal with it

573
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: in the most honest way that I can, right, And

574
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: it depends on the question. Right. Most recently it's because

575
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: of a legal matter, right, if there's a legal matter.

576
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: We have been very clear here. We have been very

577
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: clear that we just don't comment on that. It doesn't

578
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: matter what the topic is or who the top who

579
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: it's about, we have said the President has said during

580
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: the campaign. From the campaign, he has said the Department

581
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: of Justice needs to be given back it's independence. It

582
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: is important to not politically interfere or get involved under

583
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: any with any investigation. And this is the thing. You

584
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: have heard us say this from the beginning of this administration.

585
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: There's nothing absolutely new. And I said this at the beginning.

586
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: They're going to be times where I understand, I totally

587
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: get it. The press is not going to like my

588
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: answer or think that I'm not giving them an answer.

589
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: But here's the thing, Molly, I'm doing my job regardless

590
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: right the answer I'm giving, I'm doing my job so true.

591
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: Thank you so much is so interesting. I certainly know. Thanks, Molly.

592
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: I really appreciate the time. I really do. I know you.

593
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: Our dear listeners are very busy and you don't have

594
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: time to sort through the hundreds of pieces of punditentry

595
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: each week. This is why every week I put together

596
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: a newsletter of my five favorite articles on politics. If

597
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: you enjoy the podcast, you will love having this in

598
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: your inbox every Friday. So sign up at Fast Politics

599
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: pod dot com and click the tab to join our

600
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: mailing list. That's Fast politics pod dot com. Ellie Honeg

601
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: is a CNN legal analyst and author of the book

602
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: Untouchable How Powerful People Get Away with It. Welcome Too

603
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: Fast Politics, Ellie Molly John Fast. It is always a

604
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for having me.

605
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: We're delighted. So let's talk about the book first. How

606
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: did you decide I did to write this book? Tell

607
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: us about it, tell us your origin story. Go This

608
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: book arose organically. I wrote my first book, which was

609
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: called Hatchetman, How Bill bar Corrupted the Justice Department, and

610
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 1: it went great, just proven to be more and more

611
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: true every day. You saw that times I know, I mean,

612
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: I want to do an indent. We did a paperback

613
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: and I wrote a whole new chapter. I feel like

614
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 1: I could almost write volume two, just even up to now.

615
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: It's like this guy is such a such a liar

616
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: and so corrupt that it just keeps years later, it's

617
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: still coming out on this guy. Talk about that time

618
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: story for one second, and then we'll get back to

619
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: your book. But there was a story yesterday in the

620
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: New York Times Charlie Savage that basically said Bill bar

621
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: tried to influence these Durham investigation John Durham. Yeah, and

622
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: you know there's a chapter in the first book where

623
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: I heavily criticized Bar over the Durham investigation. Basically, the

624
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: it turns out the Durham investigation is exactly what it

625
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: looked like and exactly what we all thought, which is

626
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: it's this politically driven in quest to try to undermine

627
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: anything Robert Mueller did and to try to lend some

628
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 1: fuel to the fire of no collusion or that actually

629
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: the FBI was corrupt. Here Durham's investigation has been a

630
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: complete spectacular failure, and it turns out, of course bar

631
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: was complicit in it and tried to essentially soft pedal

632
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: or lie to us about it, and he also tried

633
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: to sort of push Durham to find something and to

634
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: trash Muller. Yes, I mean Bill Barr could not hide

635
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: his bias on this particular issue. He was pretty good

636
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 1: at hiding his stripes on some things, but it always

637
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: burned him. He always felt like the whole investigation of

638
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: Donald Trump was a fraud, was a hoax, despite all

639
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: the evidence that at least an investigation was necessary. Any

640
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: he pressured Durham, he tried to find results that just

641
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: weren't there, and it's just more fuel to the fire

642
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: that sort of spurred my first book. So you were

643
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: right about Bill Barr. I think it's important. I am

644
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: confident in saying I was absolutely about Bill. And by

645
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: the way, this guy's this guy one of a small note,

646
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: but you know, he always put on this whole act

647
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: of like, oh, I'm too old for this crap. I

648
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: don't need this business. I don't care what people say

649
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: about me. The terms. He's very very vain, he's very

650
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: very public image conscious. I mean, he goes on every

651
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 1: TV show. He's on air more than me almost. He

652
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: was on Bell mar last week. Did Bill Moore? Yeah?

653
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: And and the funniest thing is this is in my paperback.

654
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: After he got out. In response to a freedom of

655
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: information request, d o J released some of his texts.

656
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: This guy is monitoring Twitter, going, oh, did Don Junior

657
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: retweet me? It's embarrassing. That's amazing. At least someone respects

658
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 1: Don Junior. Yeah, right, at least someone's hoping for approval

659
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,479
Speaker 1: from the guy. Yeah. So I do the first book,

660
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: and HarperCollins, my publisher, is thrilled with it and did well.

661
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 1: And a couple of weeks after it came out, they said,

662
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 1: what do you want to do next, And I said,

663
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: I don't really have any ideas. Guys. That was kind

664
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: of my one thing that I had in mind. And

665
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: they said, well, let me ask you this. My editor said,

666
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: let me ask you this. What's the question that people

667
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 1: just ask you the most through CNN or through through

668
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: the other work you do. He's to take a couple

669
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: of days, think about it, get back to me. And

670
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: I said, oh, I don't need to take a couple

671
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: of days. I'll tell you right now. The question is

672
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: how the hell does he get away with it? He

673
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 1: can vary a bit, but it's the most often used

674
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: to revert to Donald Trump. And they said, there it is.

675
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: Do that. And so what I do in the book

676
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: is I blend a lot of different things. First of all,

677
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,760
Speaker 1: there's original reporting in there. There's scoops in there about

678
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: things that happened behind closed doors at my old office

679
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 1: the Southern District of New York and d O J.

680
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: I take a lot of the public reporting and did

681
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: a lot of research on not just Trump, but Harvey Weinstein,

682
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein, Bill Cosby. Right, there are a lot of

683
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: these guys got away with that exactly, Various CEOs, people

684
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: who aren't as household names either. And then third, I

685
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: blend in a lot of my own stories from when

686
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: I was a prosecutor. I was a mob prosecutor, Molly.

687
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: I did cases against really over a hundred if you

688
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: counted all up actual New York City Gambino and Genevese

689
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: family members. And what struck me is people often say, oh,

690
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 1: Trump's like a mob buss It's really true. I can

691
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: say that because I prosecuted mob busses, and I draw

692
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: those parallels by telling a lot my mob stories in

693
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: the book as well. I want to ask you a

694
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: question now about this news that we saw this week

695
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: about the guy in the New York City FBI office.

696
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: Explain this story to us because he was found to

697
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: be like a Russian asset, right, yeah, I mean essentially

698
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: he's that that's the accusation here that he was essentially

699
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 1: sort of in bed with or working with this guy

700
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: ar Posca, who is a Russian oligarch. And it's interesting

701
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: to see everybody sort of the spin go into effect

702
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 1: because people who believe that Mueller was doing the right

703
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: thing are saying this is more proof this, This sort

704
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 1: of undermines some of the failures of the Muller investigation

705
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: and others are saying it's proof that there was a

706
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: fix in place against Donald Trump. So I think this

707
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,919
Speaker 1: is a perfect or shot test. How would that be

708
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 1: possible that somehow this was a fix against Donald Trump. Right,

709
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: It's hard to articulate, but they're making the argument. I'll

710
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: just believe it at that. Yeah, Okay, what he admits

711
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: to feed on anything. Nowadays, everyone can take any story

712
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: and just go see see and and you do see

713
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: people saying, oh, this is this proves that Mueller was corrupt,

714
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: or that people on Muller's team were corrupted, they were

715
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: out to get Trump somehow. I just want to push

716
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: back on this because what again, I am not an

717
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: expert in any area of this, But my question for

718
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: you is, there was a guy who worked in the

719
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: FBI office who was largely in charge of Russia who

720
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: turned out to be on Dara Pasca Russian oligarchs payroll.

721
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: That guy was there when the FBI office put out

722
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: the statement that said Trump had no ties to Russia exactly,

723
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: I think it, and that they were investigating Hillary, right,

724
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: I think the best they can do in that situation.

725
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: I think the best people who are defending Trump can

726
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: do It depends on how you cast a leg dar Apostca,

727
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 1: because I think what they try to do is spin

728
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: him as somehow being anti Trump or an enemy of

729
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: Joe Biden or something like that, or pro Joe Biden.

730
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: I should say, actually, so it doesn't make sense to

731
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: me either, right, And also, I mean, if you're going

732
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,720
Speaker 1: to trace the two thousand sixteen election and Hillary's defeat,

733
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: and look, Hillary certainly was not a perfect candidate and

734
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: a lot of things went wrong, but certainly it did

735
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 1: not help having the FBI with their finger on the

736
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: scale toward Trump. Oh. I mean, look, James Comey will

737
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: forever have this follow him. And I think Jim Comey,

738
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 1: I think he I know, he violated FBI and d

739
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: o J protocol by coming out when he did. You know,

740
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: I'll leave it to the electoral experts whether that swung

741
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: the election, but it was a damn close election and

742
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: that announcement was damn influential, damn close to the election,

743
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 1: So you know, people can draw their own conclusions. And

744
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: by the way, you know, I do talk about this

745
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: sort of in the book, not this specific incident, but

746
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: how do o J sort of has this constant struggle

747
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: to keep itself independent, keep its of neutral. But a

748
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: lot of times when it comes to powerful people that

749
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: they panic, or for reasons good or bad, end up

750
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: doing the wrong thing. I mean, there seems like there's

751
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: one of the story, right, I think. So, I think

752
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: we're gonna learn more. I'm fascinated to watch this case

753
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: as it develops. I was pretty shocked by that. Now

754
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: with Rudy Giuliani, I mean, Rudy has said before and

755
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: again you have to take what he says with a

756
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: grain of salt, though, but he has said before that

757
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: he had a relationship with his FBI office, right I mean, Rudy, Yeah,

758
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: you have to. I think you have to take everything

759
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: with with a pillar of salt. With Rudy, I think

760
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,919
Speaker 1: there are more shoes to drop on this one. I'm

761
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: keeping my powder dry on this because there's a lot here,

762
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,439
Speaker 1: a lot of moving parts. And yeah, I certainly don't

763
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: trust Rudy. I'm not trusting the spin here either. Did

764
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: Trump spin? Yeah? I look. My initial reaction is that

765
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: this is not helpful for for people who believe that

766
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 1: this was a big hoax. I think, if if anything,

767
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: I think it casts some questions on why did the

768
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: investigation come up short? Why did Trump essentially why was

769
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 1: he able to wriggle out of it? And why did

770
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: the team let him wriggle out of it? Absolutely no question.

771
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 1: So tell me what else you're watching now? Oh my goodness.

772
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: Uh in terms of what's what's in the news, people

773
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,760
Speaker 1: getting away with it, what's in the FBI crime world?

774
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: I mean, what are you saying? I mean, look, the

775
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: biggest one is Donald Trump. I mean, I mean not

776
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: that you know, not to go back to this, but

777
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: we are nearing a point of no return, I think

778
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: when it comes to the various Trump investigations, and I

779
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: do talk about this in the book. And look, there's

780
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: there's two big lanes that we need to focus on here.

781
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: First of all, there's Fulton County in Georgia, the d

782
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: A it is. And I write when I wrote the book,

783
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: you know, when when we locked the book, it was

784
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: four or five months ago, and I said, guys, there

785
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: could be an indictment of Trump by the time this

786
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 1: book comes out. And so the way I wrote the book,

787
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: and I stand by every word of it, I say

788
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 1: Trump may well get indicted by the time you're reading

789
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: this book, and if so, I think the first one

790
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: to get there will be the Fulton County d A

791
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: Fani Willis, and I think that's absolutely true. I actually

792
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 1: think it's close to all but inevitable that she will

793
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 1: indicte him. Now, if you're rooting for a Trump indictment,

794
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: that's great, you may get what you want. But I

795
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: do talk in the book about how we have to

796
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: be very careful here because otment is one thing, but

797
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: a conviction is something very different, especially when you're talking

798
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: about an indictment coming from a county level elected d A.

799
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 1: I think there's going to be a serious challenge here,

800
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: or serious legal challenge, to whether a county d A

801
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: has the jurisdiction and authority to charge a former president.

802
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I'm quite critical of both

803
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: Bonnie Willis and Merrick Garland four is taking this long.

804
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 1: We are two plus years out from January six, not

805
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: a single soul with any proximity to any political power

806
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: has been charged with anything the church at all. Very

807
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: louder Milk. I mean, there's so many congressmen who spoke

808
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 1: at that rally. How about Johnny Eastman, how about Jeffrey Clark,

809
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: how about me. And here's the thing. People say, well,

810
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: you know, have patience, and these things take time. Two

811
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: years is too long. Two years too long. Look, d

812
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: o J has unlimited resources. They could have put any

813
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: amount of manpower personnel on this they wanted. There's no

814
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: reason they could have could not have gotten these cases

815
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 1: taken down in late Yet here we are now early.

816
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: Even if somebody indictes Donald Trump tomorrow early February, let's say,

817
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: when do you think that case goes to trial. There's

818
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: gonna be appeals, there's gonna be federal. You know, they're

819
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: gonna try to take things federal. These cases, either case

820
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: will not get to a jury before And what's the

821
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: world gonna look like at that point? January six is

822
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: gonna be three years old. Donald Trump is gonna be

823
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: in the middle of the next campaign. And you could say, well,

824
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: Trump is not very popular in Fulton County. Fine, but

825
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: you still have a very very high I actually did

826
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: this this math in in my book. There's a chance,

827
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: given the way people voted, that you will have one

828
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: Trump juror out of twelve in Fulton County. Scent chance

829
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: you'll have two. And on down the line, you need

830
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: a unanimous jury, and I think it's already hard enough.

831
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: Put aside the strength of the proof, it's already hard

832
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: enough to get twelve jurors unanimously beyond a reasonable doubt

833
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: to say we're going to convict and imprison a former president. Now,

834
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 1: add to the fact that it's going to be a

835
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: leading candidate, possibly the nominee, presumptive nominee by the time

836
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: of trial happens, You're gonna have a jury take out

837
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: a leading presumptive nominee of one of the two major parties.

838
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm saying these prosecutors

839
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: have needlessly complicated their own task by the slow pace

840
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: they've both moved. For sure, I mean, it does seem

841
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 1: to me Merrick Garland was the wrong guy for this job.

842
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I'm very critical of Merrick Garland

843
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 1: in the book. I have a chapter in the book

844
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,879
Speaker 1: called Waiting for Garland, which I guess is a play

845
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 1: on waiting for good Oh or waiting for Goffman. Right.

846
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 1: You know, there are people who are, Oh, he's gonna

847
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: come someday, He's gonna save us. And here's the thing

848
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: I do give Merrick Garland credit in the book for

849
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: being a strong institutionalist. We were talking about Bill Barr before. Look,

850
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,359
Speaker 1: Merrick Garland, to his credit, has been honest. He's never

851
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: lied to us. Kind of sad that we have to say.

852
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: It's a good thing for that in ag has never

853
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: lied to us. But after Bill Barr, we do have

854
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: to say that. And he has tried to restore d

855
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: OJ's integrity and independence. But my my criticism of Garland

856
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: is he he moves too slow, be he has taken

857
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 1: a myopic view of this case. He was always well,

858
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: we're going to start at the bottom and work our

859
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: way up. You don't have to do it that way.

860
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: If you have a shot at the top, take a

861
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: shot at the top. There's no reason he could have

862
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 1: got to Cassidy Hutchinson. There's no reason he couldn't got

863
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: to Mark short, to these other White House staffers who

864
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 1: the January Sex Committee got to a year and a

865
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: half ago. So I I don't think he was up

866
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: for the task of bringing a strong, decisive, gutsy prosecution

867
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: in a timely manner. Right, So the wrong person for

868
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: the job. Tell us one salient fact from your book

869
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: about how Trump got away with it. If that makes sense.

870
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: I'll give you one one example that I I think

871
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: I use early on in the book. So everyone knows

872
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 1: that wealthy people, powerful people will use their money and

873
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: their resources to build themselves these sort of legal dream teams.

874
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put dream teams in heavy scare quotes here

875
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: because a lot of times the reputations of these folks

876
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: outstripped their actual talents. But you know, we all remember

877
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: the O J Team, But the more recent one is

878
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein when he first got charged in down in Florida,

879
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: the case that Alexander Acosta completely botched on purpose. We

880
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 1: don't know how he botched it, right, And well, I

881
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: I have a chapter on this in the book. He

882
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: had this powerhouse team of Alan Dershowitz and Kenneth Starr

883
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: and all these former U S attorneys, and I actually

884
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,839
Speaker 1: assemble evidence, and I make the argument in the book

885
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: that the reason alex Acosta gave away that case is

886
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: not because he was on the take. It's because he

887
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: will stout. It's because he was too afraid of them.

888
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: And I actually found that one of the main prosecutors

889
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: who was running the case, she said that she believed

890
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: that Acosta was basically just overwhelmed by these lawyers and

891
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: didn't have the guts to take them on. And one

892
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: of the victims lawyers independently said the same thing, and

893
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: I think that holds true. Now, very critical of Acosta

894
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 1: in this book, But now let me shift bass here.

895
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: We all know that powerful people pay for lawyers. Fine,

896
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 1: but what people may not realize, and I saw this

897
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: all the time in my own career as a prosecutor,

898
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,760
Speaker 1: is real powerhouses, real smart powerhouses pay for other people's lawyers.

899
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: Why to keep them from flipping on the That's Ferry Trump,

900
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: ay exactly. So I used to see this all the

901
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 1: time in my mob cases. I tell the specific story

902
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: every time we would do a big mob take, all

903
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 1: the guys would be represented by lawyers who were chosen

904
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: and paid for by the mob. And I tell his

905
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 1: story about one of these cases where a lower ranking

906
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: guy but a potentially very valuable co operator wanted to

907
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: flip but he couldn't do it there his lawyer, because

908
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 1: his lawyer was paid for by the mob. So he

909
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: sent his girlfriend on this like secret backdoor mission to

910
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 1: the FBI. Don't let us know, and I won't give

911
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 1: away the ending book, just like Cassidy Hutchinson. You are

912
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: right with me exactly, and that is exactly the parallel

913
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: that I draw. I said, look at Cassidy Hutchinson. Her

914
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: lawyer was chosen and paid for by the Trump, a

915
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 1: Trump affiliated entity, and while she had that lawyer, she

916
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 1: said she did not feel like she could come forward fully.

917
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 1: In fact, she actually lied her first interview with that lawyer.

918
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: There they asked her, do you know anything about Trump

919
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 1: getting into some sort of scrape with the Secret Service

920
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: on and she said no, never heard anything about it,

921
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: you know. And then only when she broke free from

922
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 1: this guy, Stephen Passantino and got herself her own lawyer,

923
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor, did she fully come clean. And so

924
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: I talked about that tactic, and let me one more

925
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 1: thing on that, Molly, this is very common. CEOs corporations

926
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 1: do this all the time. And and here's where it

927
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: gets really maybe frustrating. For a long time, d OJ's

928
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: policy was, if you are an organization and you are

929
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: paying for lawyers providing lawyers for other people, we're going

930
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,280
Speaker 1: to count that against you. That counts as a strike

931
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: against cooperation. When we're assessing whether you've been cooperative. But

932
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 1: in two thousand eight, d o J completely reversed that policy.

933
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 1: It was just an internal memo and it said, from

934
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 1: now on, we're not going to count that against you.

935
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 1: And it's ridiculous, sort of Pollyanna logic. They say, we

936
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 1: believe that corporate America and big corporations have the same

937
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: interests as we do in full transparency efect. Really you

938
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 1: think Enron wants to wants to cooperate, you know, just

939
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 1: like the same as you do. And so they changed

940
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: their policy. And you know what, since two thousand and eight,

941
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: we've had democratic d o J administrations, we've had Republican

942
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: d o J administrations, Obama, Trump, Biden, no one has

943
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 1: changed that policy. They've left it in place, and it

944
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: favors powerful people. So interesting. Thank you so much, Ellie.

945
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: I hope he'll come back. Thanks great to join you.

946
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 1: I would happily come back anytime, Jesse Cannon. So the

947
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 1: Republicans are real mad that Biden didn't shoot down that

948
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 1: balloon fast enough, even though Mr Trump had it happened

949
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 1: three times and he never shot it down. The spy

950
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: balloon or the United States. Biden asked the military to

951
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: shoot it down on Wednesday, according to what he said

952
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: and the reporting, and the military says, wait until it's

953
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: not overpopulated areas, and they decided to shoot it down

954
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 1: on Saturday. Republicans used the following days to pose with

955
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 1: guns and complain about Biden. In fact, one Republican says

956
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 1: Biden should be impeached because of this. I mean, you

957
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: just can't win with these people. First of all, I mean,

958
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: and more importantly than anything, besides all the gun fetitalizations

959
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: of guns, um, it is like you mean, carry Lake

960
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: d and Mt. All pretty much everyone you can think of,

961
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:09,720
Speaker 1: posing with guns. But ultimately the balloon is way way

962
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: way up there and you cannot shoot it. And in fact,

963
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: some law enforcement agencies warned that you really like shooting

964
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 1: into a hurricane, Trying to shoot a weather balloon that

965
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: is many miles up in the sky is not a

966
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: good plan. And so because of all of these many different,

967
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 1: very stupid things, this is our moment of funky. That's

968
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,720
Speaker 1: it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday,

969
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday to her the best minds and politics

970
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 1: makes sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what

971
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 1: you've heard, please send it to a friend and keep

972
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 1: the conversation going. And again thanks for listening.