WEBVTT - INTERVIEW: Dr. Judith Joseph Talks 'High Functioning,' Hidden Depression, Burnout, Achieving Joy +More 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:02.440 Wake that ass up in the morning. 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:08.200 The Breakfast Club Morning, everybody is dj n V Jess Hilarious, 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:10.600 Charlamage the guy. We are the Breakfast Club. We got 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:12.720 a special guest in the building. Yes, indeed we have to. 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:14.440 We have doctor Judith Joseph. 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:18.680 Welcome, Thank you so great to be here. Yes, Happy 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:19.720 Mental Health Awareness Month. 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:22.160 Do you have a new book out now called high 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:26.040 Functioning Overcome your Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy? 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:27.639 What does hidden depression look like? 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.280 Ooh, so hidden depression is not like the typical depression. 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:33.440 When people think of depression, they think is someone crying? 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:34.320 I get out of bed? 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:39.560 But hidden depression hides behind a mask of pathologically being 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:44.000 pathologically productive. So imagine you know a single mom working 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:46.840 to take care of her kids, working at her job, 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.239 and she cannot sow down. People depend on her, So 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:52.159 what does she do. She shows up to work with 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:54.560 a smile on her face. She's showing up for others, 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:58.360 but she feels no joy. And it's something called anne hendonia. 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:00.920 It's a scientific term that I study in live People 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:03.960 don't even know it exists. So hidden depression doesn't necessarily 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:06.280 look sad, but it doesn't feel joy. 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:08.240 It feels empty, and. 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:14.560 I actually, I have a friend who just experienced that, right, 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:17.520 And he called me with like like he had just 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:20.200 hit the lottery. Though it was so it was it 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:22.080 was unusual. I don't like to say weird. 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:23.040 It's so unusual. 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:25.280 He called me and say, yo, I just figured something out. 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:27.520 I'm like what He was like, I've been depressed all 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:27.800 this time. 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:28.319 I'm depressed. 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:31.640 And I'm like, why you why why you you want 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:32.480 a stay or a cookie? 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:34.360 Like why are you so excited about it? Like this 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:35.080 is not good news? 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:37.360 He was like, no, no, na, like I'm not suicidal 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:40.160 or anything. I've just been burying myself in my work 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.000 and I am the most productive, but I'm not happy. 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.160 My wife she gets no attention from me. I'm not 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.280 like mentally there for my kids. And I just found out. 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:52.520 I was talking to my therapist and we you know, 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:55.840 and he got he was diagnosed and he has uh 0:01:55.880 --> 0:02:00.240 he he's depressed. And it was so crazy because I 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.840 wh when you think of depression, you know, you think 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:06.360 of you know, the suicidal thoughts and you say, damn, 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:07.280 you can't get out of bed. 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:09.840 He was the opposite, but he was still depressed. So 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:11.560 I just I just found that out. 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:13.239 Wow. Yeah, you know why he was happy. It was 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.600 because there's a term in psychology called affect labeling. When 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.560 you know what you're dealing with, the uncertainty of not 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:21.760 knowing how you feel just makes you feel so stressed. 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:24.040 You feel like, Okay, maybe there's something wrong with me, 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:26.960 what I have to complain about. Maybe it's my fault. 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:29.680 But when someone tells you no, what you're experiencing is 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:33.640 a hadonia, it's actually a scientific symptom. Many people struggle 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:35.960 with it. Then you feel as if, Okay, it's not 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:37.960 my fault. There's a term for this. I know what 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.959 I'm working with hare so I can do something about it. 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:44.320 And as human beings, our birthright is joy. Like joy 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.080 is literally built into our DNA, and if we can't 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:50.560 access that joy, that's a problem. So just because someone's 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.040 not getting out, not you know, in bed and crying 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:54.800 all day, doesn't mean that it's not a problem. We 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:56.200 have to address this lack of joy. 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:57.399 How do you get out of it? Right? 0:02:57.480 --> 0:02:59.880 So, let's say you work with somebody who bullies you 0:02:59.880 --> 0:03:04.519 all the time, says you're Spanish when you're black. You 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.200 know somebody who has a bad wig and you have 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.240 to see it all the time. How do you get 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.120 out of that place of working with them? Because you 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:16.160 got to go to work looking at me like that. 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:18.600 You gotta make money, So how do you get out 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.240 of that? Because the people that don't want to work 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:23.800 with how do you get out of that? 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:25.960 But you know what he's doing right now, He's accessing joy, 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:30.359 being playful, being comical. He is finding a way through 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:32.440 a difficult situation by accessing joy. 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:32.600 Right. 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:34.400 But many of us just go to work and. 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:35.480 We do serious. 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:38.280 If you work with somebody that you don't like, but 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:40.280 you still need to get money. I'm not talking about 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:43.160 Sheelamane or just a Lauren, but when people that you 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.160 know don't like their job. But how do you continue 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:47.720 to go through that? Because you still need money? You 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:48.960 still got to pay for the food on the table, 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:50.320 You still gotta pay for rent, you still gotta pay 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:51.360 for your car, you still gotta pay. 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:52.800 For your kids. How do you get through that? What 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:53.720 do you tell people to do? 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.760 There's actually a term in my book called the biopsychosocial model. Right, 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.800 So what you're talking about and what you so eloquently said, 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.320 it's actually a model used by every single medical student 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.320 in the world. Right, the biopsychosocial is like a fingerprint. 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.400 We all have our fingerprints, but it's all unique. So 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.760 we each have a biopsychosocial. So, for example, the person 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.800 you're talking about, the biopsychosocial for that person, socially, what's 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.160 happening is that they're in this stressful situation. They're not supported, 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.080 they're actually being you know, there's microaggressions, maybe macroaggressions at work, 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.640 but that's just one part of why they're no longer happy. 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:28.960 It's one of the things that's draining the science of 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:29.600 their happiness. 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:29.840 Right. 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.400 The other parts of that model are the biological. So 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.760 maybe this person also has a medical condition like I 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.919 don't know, diabetes, or psychologically they have past trauma. So 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:42.280 all of those things play into what's taking away from 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:45.920 their points of joy. So understanding where the stressors are 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:48.440 and what's causing you to be unhappy is important. 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:49.800 But even within. 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.440 Stressful situations, because I've traveled the world over thirty countries 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.520 looking at joy, even when people don't have running water, 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.400 even when they're in war zones, they can still access. 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:01.000 Joy, something that makes you happy. 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:02.400 With those of decisue. 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:05.000 Because joy is a survival technique. We have to access 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:07.320 joy in order to survive, not just to thrive, but 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.200 to survive. So you can find ways at work to 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:12.680 connect with someone else. Maybe someone else is going through 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.280 it with you, so you're sharing your venting. You know, 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.240 maybe you can use a candle at work or something 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.800 fragrant to stimulate the senses, or make sure that you're 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:24.000 leaving work and having lunch like a human being instead 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:25.400 of being in front of a screen. Right, there are 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:27.800 things ways that you can access joy because it's a 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:28.679 survival technique. 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:30.880 I believe that. I believe joy is survival technique. We 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:32.680 actually had liz on we were talking about that. But 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:37.480 I also feel like some people fake happy and they 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.560 fake joy, So what does the real joy look like? 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.040 That's why I say, understand the science of your happiness. 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:47.839 There's only one Leonard, There's only one Judith, you know, 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.080 ever in the history of the universe, in the future. 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:53.360 So what is it about you that makes you joyful? 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.440 And in my research lab, when we're studying joy, we're 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.320 actually adding up points. For example, if you took a 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:02.800 rest and you woke up, did you feel refreshed? That's 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:05.279 a point if you were hungry and you savored your meal, 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:07.800 that's a point. If you were lonely you connected with someone, 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.000 that's a point. But the rest of the world is 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.400 so busy chasing this idea of happy. Right, I will 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:14.400 be happy when I get the perfect partner. I'll be 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:15.839 happy when a pay up on debt, I'll be happy 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.159 when I have a house. The science shows us that 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:20.600 even when those things happen, we're still not happy. So 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:24.119 we have to access the points of joy that really 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.880 feed into our unique sense of happiness. For me, it's connection. 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.680 If I'm busy, if I'm speaking at places, if I'm 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.120 on TV all the time and I'm not connecting with 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:34.920 my family, I'm gonna be unhappy. But for you it 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:35.720 could be something else. 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:40.920 What are the signs of hidden depression and high functioning depression. 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:45.560 Yes, so many people confuse high function depression with burnout. 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.440 The difference is that, you know, for burnout, let's say 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:49.840 you go to a party and you say I'm burnt out, 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:51.960 people are like, oh, me too, me three right. But 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:53.640 if you walk into a party and you say I'm depressed, 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:56.200 people are like, oh, you should do something about that, right, 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:57.400 Like like your friend right. 0:06:59.560 --> 0:06:59.800 Living. 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.760 So when you think about burnout, right, burnout by definition 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:11.160 is an occupational hazard when though who the World Health 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:15.800 Organization classified it, it's the workplace causing the symptoms. So technically, 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:18.200 you take the person out of the workplace, they should 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.240 get better. With high functioning folks, even when you take 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:23.080 them out of the workplace, they're not better. What are 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.560 they doing. They're busying themselves on a side hustler too. 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.720 They're taking on somebody's problems. They can't sit still, they're 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:32.400 cleaning out their house or the garage, right, because it's 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:34.640 not the workplace. It's not something on the outside, it's 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:39.680 something inside that's unresolved. So this hidden trauma, this unresolved pain. 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.000 So they're trying to outrun it by busying themselves. So 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:45.760 when they sit still, they feel empty. When they're not working, 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:46.760 they feel restless. 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.000 Let me ask you a question. I feel like and 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:50.640 this is a good thing, but I also feel like 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:52.760 it's a bad thing. I feel like in the last 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:55.480 ten years, so many people have been talking about all 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:59.800 these mental health issues and terms. Does it Sometimes I 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.360 feel like it's an overload because it's like, you know, 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:04.960 you get a pain, right, you google it and it 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:06.640 is thirty things that's wrong with you. 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:08.840 Now you're even more confused. 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:10.800 Right, is that the same thing with a lot of 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:12.720 sometimes with a lot of these terms, like when you 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.120 hear certain things, is now I'm depressed, Now I'm a 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:18.160 high function in depressed. Now I have anxiety. Now I 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:20.200 have this like do you feel like it's too much 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:22.520 for people? And how can people really break that all 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:24.600 down and realize what they really have and which really 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.000 bought them because everything sounds the same at sometimes. 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.760 I mean, it's a great question. But the term effect 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.640 labeling in psychology shows us that when you can name 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.520 it appropriately right, it decreases the anxiety. Think about if 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:38.760 you were in a room you know it's pitch black, 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.320 and you heard a loud crash. Some of us would 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.880 start swinging, someone start screaming, someone start running. But if 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:46.000 you turn that light on and you saw what it was, 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:49.720 a osfel or some inotimant object, you feel relaxed. Why 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:51.640 Because you know what you're doing, you know what it is. 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:51.839 Right. 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:55.280 It's the not knowing and not naming appropriately that creates 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:57.640 a lot of anxiety. So people end up just drinking 0:08:57.640 --> 0:08:59.400 a lot right to soothe that thing because they don't 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:01.719 know what it is, or they end up gambling or 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:04.160 spending a lot of money or doing things busying themselves 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:05.720 to outrun this pain they don't understand. 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:09.040 And it's interesting too because you know, I think what 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:11.640 is speaking to to me anyway is the fact that 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:13.520 there was a time when nobody used to talk about 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:15.920 their mental health issues. So we went from saying we 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.520 don't speak about this at all. In order to eradicate 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.559 the stigma, we got to tell our story. So now 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:23.199 people are not just going out there to get help 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:24.560 and understanding what they're dealing with. 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:25.680 They're telling their stories. 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:28.640 They're telling their story. But still the older generations are 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.920 not as open, right, the younger ones they want to 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:34.079 talk about it. They want to feel seen, they want 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:37.320 to feel connected, and many of them do sometimes inappropriately 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:40.240 use a label to connect. Right, But there's still a 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:42.280 lot of stigma. You know, the places I go, the 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.360 corporations I go to, it's still more accepted to say 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.360 burnt out than depressed. But we have to name what 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.400 it is because the supports are going to look very different, 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:51.800 the resources look very different. 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:54.319 Now, how do you know the different between somebody who's 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:56.920 staying busy as a response to trauma to somebody who's 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:57.880 actually really. 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:01.880 Busy, yes, great question. It's antedonia. You know, when you 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:06.280 ask someone who's busy but they're actually pathologically productive, they're 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.360 not getting joy. You know. They end up at my 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.040 office in Manhattan and they're like, I don't know what's wrong. 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:13.880 Everything looks good on the outside, but I just don't 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.280 feel joyful. Whereas someone who's actually engaged in what they're doing, 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:20.440 they got the pep in their step. They're engaged and 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.720 they're connected, and they're feeling as if they're getting a 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:26.440 sense of purpose Versus when you keep doing over time 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:29.880 without actually tapping into purpose, you do feel numb. You're like, 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:31.960 why am I doing this? But you cannot stop because 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:33.839 you're trying to outrun something that you don't even know 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:34.560 is there. 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:36.040 Now. 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.200 You talked about, you know, working and being at rest, 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:39.959 So how do you know when you're at rest and 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:42.000 being okay with being at rest. 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:44.800 One of the points of joy that we measure in 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:48.720 my research lab is actually that it's called psychomorgoric at agitation. 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:51.240 It's a terrible scientific term, but what it means is 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:54.200 that you can't sit still. You just on edge. And 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.640 when you add a points of joy, being able to 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.720 be calm and not stressed is actually a point that 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.200 many many of us leave on the table. We often think, oh, 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.120 that's anxiety and not depression. But no, it's almost like 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:07.880 a different side of the same coin. Right, You can't 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.400 be joyful if you're stressed. Do you know anyone who's 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.840 been really stressed out who is like also joyful? No? Then, 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.120 and look at the monks and other countries and the gurus. 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:18.760 They may have just a mat to sleep on and 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.319 bread and water, but they are joyful because they're at peace. 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.600 So if you're not feeling that sense of peace and 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:28.040 you have that inner restlessness, it's really difficult to be joyful. 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:29.600 What does everybody's piece the same piece? 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:29.800 Though? 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:31.800 It's not? And that's why I said to understand the 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.120 science of your happiness. In my book, I actually have 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:37.440 that model so that I democratize this information. Why are 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.959 just the doctors and medical students holding onto this. Every 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.440 patient that comes to my lab draws their own biopsychosocial right, 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.200 So you want to figure out what are the things 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:47.720 that are taking away from my happiness? 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:47.920 Right? 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:50.280 If you don't understand what's taking away their points of joy. 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:52.560 How can you understand the science of your happiness? So 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.360 in some cases, you're going to look at the social factors, Right, 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.640 someone who is partner with somebody who's toxic. I mean, 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:00.319 they could eat all the care they want, They're still 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.560 going to be unhappy, right, Versus somebody who, let's say 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:07.800 psychologically they dealt with a lot of trauma in their childhood, neglected, abused. 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.080 We need to address that first because it's really hard 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:12.720 to act as story when you're in fight or flight. 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.480 And then biologically, let's say, if someone who has an 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:17.800 autoimmune condition, right, if you're constantly in a state of 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:20.200 high inflammation, your brain's not going to be happy. So 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.520 everyone's so unique, but we're chasing things that work for 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:25.360 other people without understanding our own science. 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.559 And going back to what you said just a minute ago, 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.200 when you were saying, people bury themselves in work and 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:33.600 they have to be doing something all the time. 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:37.760 They're always at their busiest. How do you I don't know, 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:38.360 how did I see? 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:38.480 Like? 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.920 How are you supposed to feel when you do nothing? Yes? Like, 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.079 how are you know what I'm saying? Like, how are 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:46.120 you supposed to feel? And you just do nothing. 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:49.320 My clients ask me that all the time, because high 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.360 functioning folks have something called all or nothing thinking. When 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:54.280 you tell them that you need to slow down, they're like, well, 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.880 I can't stop, and I'm like, hold on a second. Stopping 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:00.199 is not equivalent to slowing down. But their role, their 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.280 sense of their worth is so tied closely to what 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:07.040 they do. They feel like without their role, they are unlovable, 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:09.640 that they are lazy. Yeah, right, So we have to 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.160 challenge a lot of that. And in the PTSD, the 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.200 post traumatic stress research that I do with combat veterans, 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:18.280 what we see is that, you know, people who are 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.800 triggered by things like let's say a situation, a person, 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:25.120 a place, you know, they avoid those things, right, But 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.559 those of us who are pathologically productive with high function depression, 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:31.800 we avoid dealing with the pain by working. So a 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.400 lot of it is unpacking what are you running from? Right? 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:36.680 You think you're chasing this gold is happiness, but what 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:38.280 are you actually running from? 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:38.720 Right? 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.600 And the trauma response of I don't feel worthy without 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:44.679 my role, you know, that is exactly it. They don't 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:48.320 even realize it's tied to some past unprocessed pain. So 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:50.920 a lot of times we spend going back in the past. 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.400 I'll ask them to, you know, open up their phones 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:55.719 or bring in old pictures so we can trace back 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.920 to a time when they actually were feeling purposeful and 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:01.920 tapping into joy, and we try to figure out and 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.520 unpack what was that trauma. And then we spend a 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:05.720 lot of time in grounding. 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:05.959 Right. 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:08.880 Grounding techniques help you to calm that fight or flight 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.440 because that busyness is you trying to outrun this past. 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:12.800 Right. 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:15.720 So it doesn't like flashback, it doesn't like nightmares, but 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:17.760 it's this busyness because you're trying to outrun your in 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:19.560 fight or flight. But we spend a lot of time 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:21.720 with grounding, and I talk about the techniques of my book, 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:24.480 so they feel at ease when they sit still. 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.800 We're talking to doctor Joseph Judith Joseph Us. She has 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:30.080 a new book out, High Functioning, Overcome your Hidden Depression 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:30.640 and Reclaim Your Joy. 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:35.160 Which you gonna say, just uh, what you like live 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:36.640 here in Manhattan. 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.200 You can't ground out there actually can. 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:44.200 Great question, you know, I actually talk. That's a good one. 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:46.640 And I taught this course, the same one I'm teaching 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:47.720 about at the White House. 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:47.960 Right. 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.200 Talk about people who are in high stress situations at work. 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:51.480 Right. 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.680 I taught them how they can actually ground at their desk. 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.480 And there's a technique called the five four three two one. 0:14:58.880 --> 0:14:59.080 Right. 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:01.480 You can do it with a beverage. 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:02.200 Like a coffee or a tea. 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:04.960 But what you do is you sit and for five 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.560 minutes every day you practice this, you hold onto that 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.160 tee and you list five things you can see, so 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.960 you describe the cup, describe the liquid, You describe your hand, 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.520 the table, like you're really describing. Five things that you see, 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.400 the color. Four things that you feel, so you feel 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:23.080 the cup, you feel the warmth, you feel the chair, 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:26.440 You feel the ground under your feet. Three things that 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:28.400 you can hear, so you may hear some wind outside, 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:29.880 you may hear music, you may hear the sound of 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.800 the beverage. Two things that you can smell. You smell 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.440 the fragrances in the cup and on you. One thing 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:37.560 you can taste, you sip it. If you're doing five 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:39.360 for three two one in that way, you're not thinking 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.800 about your past pay, you're not getting trigger, you're not 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.080 thinking about you know what's happening around you. You're so 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.200 present and you're teaching your brain that you have the 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:50.000 capacity to sit still and to be present, because when 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.640 we don't process that fight or flight, we feel disconnected 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.640 from our bodies. But the grounding techniques allows us to 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:57.240 sit still and just do nothing. 0:15:58.280 --> 0:15:59.880 You need to rest to find be. 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:02.760 I think so it's one of the points of joy, 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:07.920 you know. Excuse me, it's really difficult to access joy 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:12.600 when you are restless. It's really difficult to access that 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.320 feeling of happiness and pleasure when you have when you're 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.800 in fight or flight. Right, So it's important to practice 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:19.960 these peaceful methods. 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:23.840 I think. I keep I'm hung up on this. 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:25.880 One question you asked earlier was like, can you feel 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:27.640 joy when you're stressed? 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:31.360 It's very, very difficult. It's super difficult, you know, Like 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.000 imagine when you're stressed and you're sitting eating your food. 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:36.280 Many times we'll like finish the bowl and we don't 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.240 even know we finished our plate, right, because our brain 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:40.760 was somewhere else. So we missed out on a point 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.760 of joy, right, We weren't tasting the crunchy salad or 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:44.480 the dressings. 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:44.680 Right. 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.440 That's crazy, Yeah, like mostly. 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:50.520 Not even everything's not trying to sound like a client 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:52.920 here or anything like that. But a lot of things 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.320 that you're saying, like I like live this every day, 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.520 Like I'll heat something up and then do something else 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:02.560 and if forget that I'm even forget that I'm hungry 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:05.119 and then do it because I'm trying to keep myself busy. 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.000 Like I wake up every morning at four, being here 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.080