1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mob Never Told You from how stup 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about body shaming, 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: which is going to be an umbrella term for both 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: fat shaming and thin shaming. Because a few months ago, 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: over on stuff I've Never Told You the YouTube channel, 7 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: a viewer asked whether or not skinny shaming or thin 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: shaming exists, and so I did a video talking about 9 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: it and how yes, you know, I think that there's 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: a you know, a spectrum of body shaming, and not 11 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: to pit one against the other, I e. Pit fat 12 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: shaming against thin shaming, saying which is worse, which is better, 13 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: because that's not the point. And it generated a lot 14 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: of conversation, and we asked in the podcast whether or 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: not we should talk about this topic as well heard 16 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: from a lot of you, and so here you go, 17 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: let's talk about body shaming because I feel like this 18 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: is such an important issue for women to really really 19 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: pay close attention to, yah because we're not careful in 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: the I think there's a lot of good intentions of 21 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: wanting to encourage girls in particular to have a healthy 22 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: body image, and in the process we end up shaming 23 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: women who look like what we don't think they should 24 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: look like, whether that is larger or smaller, right, exactly, Well, 25 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: so why do we have these views? Why do we 26 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: have these views of what's too big or too small? Yeah, well, 27 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: a lot of the research is focused on weight bias 28 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: in the sense of fat shaming weight bias, and there 29 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: are a lot of theories as to why it exists, 30 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: because it is once you start digging into the literature, 31 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: there is I mean, it's so persistent and it's long 32 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: standing and astounding how early those biases develop in us. So, 33 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: for more of an evolutionary perspective, there's this idea that 34 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: a weight bias exists because it's humans pathogen avoidance mechanism 35 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 1: at work. Basically, this inborn response to us seeing someone 36 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: that doesn't look like us, you know, and us being 37 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: you know, like a a middle weight person and having 38 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: some evolutionary response of like, oh, well, you must have 39 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: some kind of disease or something that I need to 40 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: stay away from. Right. And there's also the idea, and 41 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,519 Speaker 1: this could stretch back all the way to our puritan 42 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: early American ancestors who considered over indulgence and actual moral 43 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: failing that if you over indulged in food or alcohol 44 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: or anything like that, that you clearly had something wrong 45 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: with you. Yeah, because today a lot of fat shaming 46 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: involves just assumptions that, well, these people just have no 47 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: self control whatsoever. Um, which we'll talk about more and 48 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: how that is a total myth. Um. But there also 49 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: might be some feminism tied up in this, not in 50 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: the sense of feminism promoting way bias, but perhaps weight 51 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: bias being a reaction to it. For instance, Naomi Wolf 52 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,119 Speaker 1: in the book The Beauty Myth, she talks about how 53 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: urging women to be thin has noticeably spiked during the 54 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: suffrage movement and second wave feminism, and she writes, what 55 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: are the implications of advocating thinness for women at times 56 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: when these women begin to take up more space and 57 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: hold more power? Right, So, women are are leaving the 58 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: home and suddenly they're outside. Oh my god, there's there's 59 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: women outside and they're on the bus and they're going 60 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: to work. You know, we we have to take them 61 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: down a peg, you know, like like we're we're taking 62 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: you down a peg so that you won't be as 63 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: threatening and that involves judging you for all of the 64 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: fact that you do or don't have on your body, um, 65 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: instead of you know, letting you prove yourself as a 66 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: skilled worker or what not. Yeah, And a lot of 67 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: weight bias research does focus on women because, let's face it, 68 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: women are often judged more harshly for not meeting normative 69 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: attractiveness standards. Yeah, and like that's the only thing, Like 70 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, not in a fat shaming or 71 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: thin shaming sort of way. But I think Hillary Clinton 72 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: is an excellent example of that. It's like, really, that's 73 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: all you have to judge her on the fact that 74 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: she wore that suit or did her hair that way. 75 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: You know, I think, you know, her peers in government 76 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: do not her male peers in government do not face 77 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: the same focus. And that's something that women just have 78 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: to deal with. And and we just happened today to 79 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: be talking about the weight aspect. Yeah. And and the 80 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: wight bias has been just kind of peddled to us 81 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: over and over again through media messages, imagery, photoshop. I 82 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: think I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but I 83 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: clearly remember being around all of years old and for 84 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: the first time really becoming aware of what my thighs 85 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,799 Speaker 1: looked like because I was flipping through a Delia's catalog 86 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: and it had, you know, bikini shots, and these girls 87 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: had very thin thighs. I did not have very thin thighs. 88 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: When their legs, you know, when their feet were together, 89 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: their thighs didn't touch mine did. And it was all 90 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: of a sudden it just set off as domino effect 91 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: in my brain that oh, my god, I have massive 92 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: fat thighs. This is awful. I don't look like that. Yeah, 93 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: I was. I was watching a show the other night 94 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: and you know, had all this this research in my brain, 95 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: and I was looking at all the characters on the 96 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: screen and it was just like a general shot of 97 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: the main character at an airport, and so there's a 98 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: million people around and not a single one of them 99 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: was over a normal or average weight at all. They 100 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: were all very slim, slender, and I it just occurred 101 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: to me like, oh, well, we're getting this this universe 102 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: presented to us every day all day long, of the 103 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,239 Speaker 1: fact that the only people who exist who are worth 104 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: being on screen or who are worth thinking about are 105 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: people who look one specific way, and if you're smaller 106 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: than that or if you're bigger than that, then obviously 107 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: like something's wrong with you. Yeah. I mean the very 108 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: fact that Lena Dunham and Mindy Kaling's Wait, for instance, 109 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 1: which are pretty much average for American women, The fact 110 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: that their bodies are such constant topics of conversation, as 111 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: though it's revolution that they're even on screen right, speaks 112 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: so much to where we are with this issue. Um So, 113 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: what we know also about weight bias from these studies 114 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: is that it starts very early. It's also more predominant 115 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: among white women in particular, and it has been on 116 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: the rise in recent years. Um So, as for that 117 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: age issue, this was startling to me. A two thousand 118 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: seven study found evidence of a weight bias and in 119 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: that sense, an anti fat bias. They found evidence of 120 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: it by age five age five, and these are the 121 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: This is the same time when, as we've talked about 122 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: many times in the podcast to Caroline, that we're forming 123 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: our earliest gender schema, kind of getting a sense of 124 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: the world and who we are, and along with that, 125 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: this wait bias comes in. Yeah, it's very interesting. I mean, 126 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: is it coming from parents, is it coming from peers? 127 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: I think it's coming from parents, peers, coaches, teachers, what 128 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: they're seeing on television, what they're hearing how probably have 129 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: you know a lot of how they hear people talking 130 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: about other people. Um And in studies, children perceive obese 131 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: peers as lazy, stupid, and undesirable. I mean, these are 132 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: the kinds of things that kids are reporting about kids 133 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: their own age. I don't I don't remember when I 134 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: first thought I was fat, but I remember distinctly, like 135 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: I remember it crystal clear, being in fourth grade and 136 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: squatting down on the ground in front of my cubby. 137 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: And you know how when you squat down and your 138 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: thigh broadens out, And I remember looking down at that 139 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: area like lower thigh, upper knee area and being like, look, 140 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: how big my leg is? How old are you in 141 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: fourth grade? You're what like nine? So self aware? Yeah, 142 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: I also distinctly remember when and I was a tall child, 143 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: but I was also a pretty as my grandfather told me, 144 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: I was a pretty husky child. And I also distinctly 145 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: remember a boy calling me fat and it just like 146 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: shattered my world. Yeah, I had the same thing happened 147 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: to me. I went on a retreat. I can't remember 148 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: what grade this is, in. But we went on like 149 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: a class retreat and we had to do a trust 150 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: fall and when I got up when it was my turn, 151 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: the boy that I had a crush on in the 152 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: back of the line was like, great, here comes Fatty. 153 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: Hope we can catch her. Things like that stick with people, 154 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: and like, uh, you know, shame on their parents for 155 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: not telling them to keep their traps shut. But I 156 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: wonder that. I mean, it's so pervasive. Even if they 157 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 1: don't hear it from their parents, they're probably going to 158 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: hear it from somebody else. Um. But let's talk for 159 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: a second about these ethnic differences as well, because there 160 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,479 Speaker 1: is a study that we found looking at the intersection 161 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: of ethnicity and the stigma of obesity and the engagement 162 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: with a thin ideal to put it in very clinical terms, 163 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: and found that it was more predominant among white women 164 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: compared to African American women. So there might be a 165 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: bit of cultural differences coming in there as well. So 166 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: looking at a bunch of different studies, and this is 167 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: coming out of the Red Center, but they set that 168 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: between and two thousand and six there was a sixty 169 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: six percent increase in weight bias, which was calculated based 170 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: on the number of people who reported experiencing it, and 171 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: so what are the real world effects of these weight biases. 172 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: Not surprisingly, it's a lot of terrible stuff. Um. Just 173 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: for for one snap shot, there was study which I 174 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: realized is kind of dated, but there's a study looking 175 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: at this and they found that in this this was 176 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: among college students. They found that students considered obese people 177 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,719 Speaker 1: being the fifth lowest on a ranking of desirability, preferring 178 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: quote to marry an embezzler, cocaine user, ex mental patient, shoplifter, 179 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: sexually promiscuous person, communist, blind person, atheist, or marijuana user 180 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: before wanting to marry an obese person. Interesting, you would 181 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: rather marry a shoplifting coke addict. I mean, that's that's 182 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: some pretty communist shoplifting coke at I know, it's it's 183 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: it's it's a little bit dated, Sarah, Yeah, even though 184 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 1: still so. I mean that right there speaks to how 185 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: kind of deep this is. But the Red Center, as 186 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: we mentioned, which is out of Yale University, has really 187 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: focused a lot on looking into the weight bias and 188 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: its real world effects and has conducted a lot of 189 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: research on it, and they've identified all sorts of ways 190 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: in which this weight stigma impacts people's day to day lives, 191 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: starting with workplace discrimination, which is a massive problem and 192 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: does affect overweight and obese men and women, but women 193 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: are more likely to experience it compared to men. Right, 194 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: the National Survey of Midlife Development in the US did 195 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: find that women are sixteen times more likely to report 196 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: weight related employment discrimination than men, and a separate survey 197 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: that studied overweight and obese women found that twenty five 198 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: percent of those women reported experiencing job discrimination and reported 199 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: weight stigma from employers or supervisors. And in the European Union, 200 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: there was a similar study that found that a ten 201 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 1: percent increase in one's b m I correlated to a 202 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: three point three percent drop in wages for women compared 203 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: to a one point nine percent drop in wages for men. 204 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: Um And even when people leave work and for instance, 205 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: go to the doctor, wait, bias still crops up there 206 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: a lot too, especially for women. There was one study, 207 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,719 Speaker 1: for instance, which found that women, compared to men, were 208 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: more likely to agree with this statement, Nobody looks into 209 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: why I'm overweight. They just put me on diets. Yeah, 210 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: and I mean this, uh, not to go off totally 211 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: on a tangent, But that that quote really kind of 212 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: jumped out at me because of the whole Hashimoto's thing. 213 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: You know, when I was uh, gaining a surprising amount 214 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: of weight and not being able to lose it in 215 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: a very surprisingly short amount of time. You know, I 216 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: got weighed at the same doctor that I've been going 217 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: to for eleven years, and I'm like, you're not You're 218 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: not gonna ask me anything about the fact that I've 219 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: all of a sudden put on all this weight. It 220 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: was like up to me to then go to a 221 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: different doctor and be like, Hey, something is up with 222 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: my body. Can you fix me? Can you help me 223 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: and tell me what's going on? And not not that 224 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: I am walking the same path as someone who is 225 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: maybe fifty two hundred pounds overweight, but still, when something's 226 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: going on with your body, you want to be able 227 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: to rely on healthcare professionals to both be sympathetic and 228 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: be proactive and helping you figure it out. But yeah, 229 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: a lot of these people that were in the study 230 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: were saying, like, I just didn't get the medical attention 231 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: that I needed for for this this thing that's affecting 232 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: my life. They just sort of thought, oh, well, you're 233 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: fat and lazy. Yeah, you should probably just go to 234 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: the gym. And as a result, some women and men 235 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: alike will avoid going to the doctor altogether just so 236 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: they don't have to deal with that kind of weight stigma. Because, 237 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: I mean having to deal with weight stigma on top 238 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: of just the awkwardness of sitting in a in a 239 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: gown waiting, you know, in the tiny little exam room. 240 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: It can't be that can't be easy to deal with, right, 241 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: And if you look at schools, the Red Center found 242 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: at of overweight and obese women reported experiencing weight stigma 243 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: from a teacher or a professor and had experienced it 244 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: more than once or multiple times. Similarly, there was a 245 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: Swedish study that found lower educational attainment for overweight and 246 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: obese women partially explained by not being popular in school. Yeah, 247 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: I mean it leads to social isolation a lot of times. 248 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: Because again, these biases are not something that just magically 249 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: emerge in adulthood. Um. But in terms of the real 250 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: world impacts of it, the area that jumped out the 251 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: most to me was how weight stigma impacts relationships, because 252 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: this has overwhelmingly such a disproportionate effect on women. This 253 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: is a quote from that Rudd meta analysis finding that 254 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: weight stigma may have an especially negative impact on dating 255 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: prospects for obese women. UM, citing a study, for instance, 256 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: that found that both men and women negatively rated a 257 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: dating profile of a woman described as fat, overweight, or 258 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: obese compared to a dating profile that might have used 259 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: euphemistic terms like full figured, or a dating profile describing 260 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: a woman who had a history of drug abuse. Would 261 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: rather date a woman with a history of drug abuse 262 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: than an obese woman. Yeah, and it made it makes 263 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: me think of the whole um the sitcom problem that 264 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: we we seem to have, which is that we're we're 265 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: Also it's reinforced every night at dinner time for those 266 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: recurring sitcoms that the funny fat man is okay, and 267 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: he's a desirable husband and you love him and he's 268 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: a big bear. Um, but he always has the skinny, 269 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: like super made up, dolled up, big hair, gorgeous, high 270 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: healed woman for a wife. And so that's just something 271 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: that gets reinforced and it's a terrible cycle. Um. There 272 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: was a study that showed that both men and women 273 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: ranked an obese potential partner lower than those with mint 274 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: illness or a history of s t I S. Although 275 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: men ranked the obese women significantly less preferable than women 276 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: ranked the obese men, which goes back to that whole 277 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: sitcom Divide Too, I feel like, but also for this conversation, 278 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: because we're really focusing on I think a lot on 279 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: on women body shaming other women, it's notable that in 280 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: all of these studies that include male and female participants, 281 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: that women are just as shaming towards overweight now as 282 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: the men are. It's not like, oh, we're just one 283 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: like massive group of female solidarity rooting for each other. Nope, 284 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: we we are exercising these biases as well. And when 285 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: when there's one study looking at the source of fat 286 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: shaming within families, the most prominent shamer of all was 287 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: the mom. See it was it was opposite in my house. 288 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: My mother was like, eat a whole turkey, you're beautiful. Here, 289 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: have all of the sweets and chips. I want you 290 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: to finish the ice cream, which who knows what was 291 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,959 Speaker 1: going on there. But my father was the one who 292 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: would like make a clucking noise anytime I like went 293 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: for the downut. Yeah, that kind of stuff makes me 294 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: so trepidacious about the prospect of ever being a parent, 295 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: because similarly, those are the kinds of things that also 296 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: stuck in my childhood brain of you know, some tisking 297 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: disapproval during my hushky days if I were to reach 298 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: for a snack or I mean, I love, I love 299 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: my mom. But she was also very proud of her 300 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: petite figure, and that was something that I mean, it 301 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: was just very much present in my formation of what 302 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: an attractive woman should look like or a girl should 303 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: look like, you know, because she would talk a lot 304 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: about how, you know, when she was younger, when she 305 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: was my age, she dated a lot, and then I 306 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: would look at photos of her and she was much 307 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: smaller than I was, and you you know, you start 308 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: building those bridges in your your little little child brains. Yeah, 309 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: I know that makes me sad. Well, let's talk about 310 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: some good news and do some weight stigma myth busting, 311 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: and also talk about some thin shaming on the other 312 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: end of this body shame spectrum when we come right 313 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: back from a quick break. Now back to the show. 314 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: So I think we pretty clearly established that weight bias exists. 315 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: We have experienced it in our own lives, Caroline. Um, 316 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: But let's do some myth busting. Let's spread some good 317 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: news to balance out all the terrible news of how 318 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: persistent fat shaming and weight bias in general is in 319 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: our society. Right. One of those myths is that people 320 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 1: who are overweight have a complete lack of control, that 321 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:59,719 Speaker 1: that whole puritanical moral control issue. There was a literature 322 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: review you published in the journal Sex Roles that found 323 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: that fat women are deemed that they could be attractive, 324 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: but that they lack the control to do so, and 325 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: that means that they're perceived to be weak or out 326 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 1: of control, and that is just not the case. Yeah. 327 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 1: I mean, there have been plenty of studies that would 328 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: take as far too long to cite individually in this 329 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: podcast about how overweight and obese people. Plenty of them 330 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: do exercise and watch what they eat. It's not so 331 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,640 Speaker 1: much an issue of that kind of self controlling stuff 332 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: that's impacting their weight. It's probably things going on genetically 333 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: or with health condition. She's that doctors might not be 334 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: paying attention to because they're too busy fat shaming them. Right, Yeah, 335 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: you have no idea what's going on with someone. For instance, 336 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: I have a friend of mine who she's beautiful, and 337 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: she works out all the time. She does CrossFit, she 338 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: does yoga, she does this and that. She watches what 339 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: she eats, but she's overweight because she has hypothyroidism. She 340 00:19:58,359 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't even know how you have the 341 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: time tim in the day to work out as much 342 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: as you do, Like, she well, I don't even know 343 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: how you do it and have a job at the 344 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: same time. But she's she says that, you know, when 345 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: people look at me, they just think that I sit 346 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: around eating pizza and drinking beer all day long. She's like, 347 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: but I'm the furthest thing from lazy and unmotivated and 348 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: out of control as you can be. Well, if you 349 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: are genuinely invested in someone losing weight, one of the 350 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: worst things that you can do to motivate a person 351 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: is fat shame them because A March two thousand fourteen 352 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: study published in the Journal of Experimental Psychology found that 353 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: exposure to wait stigmatizing news articles caused self perceived overweight 354 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: women to actually consume more calories and feel less capable 355 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: of controlling their eating than exposure to non stigmatizing articles 356 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: sort of a self sabotaging effect that takes place when 357 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: if you're sitting there and and maybe you want to 358 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: lose weight, but you're just being told, well, you know, 359 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: you're just a fatty fat fat and you can't do 360 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: anything for yourself because you're just lazy. Guess what. It's 361 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: going to become a self fulfilling type of prophecy with that, right, 362 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: And they were saying that the better way to frame 363 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: that is more lifestyle changes that you're doing something. And 364 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: this is something that a lot of a lot of 365 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: people talk about, which is, you know what, whether you're overweight, underweight, 366 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: normal weight, whatever, is framing your life in a more 367 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: like healthy way, you know, talking about food in terms 368 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: of what it gives you and how it fuels you 369 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: instead of don't eat that Hershey bar because it's got 370 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: too much fat in it, or only eat those carrots 371 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: because they have no fat, blah blah blah, making it 372 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: more about having a healthy lifestyle less about the weight 373 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,959 Speaker 1: itself exactly. Um And even if weight loss occurs, research 374 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: has also found that it does not necessarily erase the 375 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: weight stigma. I mean in the same way that you 376 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: and I, so many years after the fact, are sitting 377 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: here recalling in crystal clear detail times from our childhood 378 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 1: when we felt horrible about our bodies. That stigma does 379 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: not magically disappear. Um. This was confirmed by a recent 380 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: study out of Clemson University which found that, uh, for 381 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: women who had lost weight, they were still attached in 382 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: a way to this previous person who had been stigmatized. 383 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: It was like almost an entirely different identity that they 384 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: had to shed over time, Right, because there's that trauma 385 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: that kind of sticks with you. Yeah, you can't just 386 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: leave that behind automatically. But we have to talk about 387 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: the fat acceptance movement, and this is something that we 388 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: we touched on in our Plus Sized Fashion episode. Um. 389 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: But this is a movement that has roots in the sixties, 390 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: right alongside civil rights and other social movements feminism that 391 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: we're happening at the time, we see the emergence of 392 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: fat acceptance. UM. In the nineteen sixties, there was a 393 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: fat in demonstration in Central Park in which people ate 394 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: ice cream while burning photos of thin models. Yeah, this 395 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: kind of advocacy that you're seeing more and more and more, 396 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: especially via social media, is not a new thing at all, 397 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: and the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance was formed 398 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty nine, and then you have the International 399 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: Size Acceptance Association beginning as well, and this took off 400 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: even more in the era of blogging with what was 401 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: termed or is termed I should say, it's not like 402 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: it's disappeared, uh, the phato sphere where all of a sudden, 403 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: women in particular were Kate Harding is a name that 404 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: comes up a lot in these conversations, UM talking about, Hey, 405 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: you know what, I am overweight and I am healthy, 406 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to let the media tell me 407 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,479 Speaker 1: anymore that I am hideous and should just hide behind 408 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: you know, tent like clothing right right exactly. And then 409 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: that ties into the whole healthy at Every Size movement, 410 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: which is basically what I was just saying about making 411 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: your life about being healthy, not necessarily about being a 412 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: particular weight, um. And it's based around the whole idea 413 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: of honoring your body, treating it well, eating foods that 414 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: are good for you and that fuel you, not being 415 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: so concerned about what size your pants are. Yeah, and 416 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: I mean it's really great that the fat acceptance movements 417 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: started and that we are continuing to broaden our acceptance 418 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: of what female beauty is and can look like. But 419 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: along with criticism of fat shaming, I kind of also 420 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: came a bit of thin shaming in its wake. Uh. 421 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: There's a two thousand eleven study, for instance, that found 422 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: that quote explicit weight stereotypes are curvilinear, especially among women, 423 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: and in every day speak, that basically means that not 424 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: only is there a weight bias at the larger end 425 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: of the spectrum, but also at the smaller end of it. Right, 426 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: look at Angelina Jolie when she came out on stage 427 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: at the Oscars I think that was two years ago, 428 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: and there was the dress with the big split in it, 429 00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: the leg, the leg. Yeah, and it got its on 430 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: too account. But everybody was, like the Internet seemed to 431 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,479 Speaker 1: be aghast at her body shape and saying that she 432 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: needed to go home and eat imply. Yeah, I mean, 433 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: I feel like there's as much schaden freud for looking at, uh, 434 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: you know, celebrities overweight beach bodies or not, you know, 435 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: perfectly photoshopped beach bodies as there are for extremely thin 436 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: beach bodies. We want to point at both of them 437 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: and say, oh, that's that's not okay. Um, But there 438 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: have also been these Internet memes which, on the one hand, 439 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: seemed really empowering for women of like, yes, embrace curvy bodies. 440 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: That's great, But the way they're framed is very thin 441 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: shamy as well, because there's, for instance, this thing called 442 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: the Maryland meme. You've probably seen it if you have 443 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: a Facebook account, and it's a picture of Marilyn Monroe 444 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: wearing her one piece swimsuit looking all kinds of gorge, 445 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: you know, and and having a not super duper thin 446 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: and body, and then next to it you have an 447 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: image of a super thin celebrity basically pointing out like, 448 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 1: oh look, you know this is this is what real 449 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 1: beauty looks like. Yeah, And then I mean that could 450 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: be a whole other discussion about like what is real beauty, 451 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: what's a real woman? And and that that's sort of 452 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 1: the conversation that's happening behind a lot of these memes 453 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: like the whin did this become hotter than this meme? 454 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: Which is awful, and but then it becomes better that 455 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 1: it repairs itself, it redeems itself. When you look at 456 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: the memes that are making fun of the whin did 457 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: this become hotter than this? Meme, which is like when 458 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: did these Japanese body pillows become hotter than you know? 459 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: And it's like a regular pillow or something. Yeah. Well, 460 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 1: and along those same lines, you have the whole real 461 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: women have curves, which is kind of tied into the 462 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: Maryland meme. It's the whole It's it's the same kind 463 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: of thing of saying, you know what this is, this 464 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: is what a beautiful woman looks like and she's this size, 465 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: to which women who might be naturally thinner say, hey, actually, 466 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: why are you saying that I'm not a real woman? 467 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: And also using the term real woman is also problematic 468 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: when you start looking at since gender versus transgender, because 469 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 1: that's also leaving out a whole group of people too 470 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: who don't look like or weren't born looking like Marilyn Monroe. 471 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: So it's all sorts of problematic. Yeah, and it doesn't 472 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: help anybody at the end of the day. Yeah, it's 473 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 1: like things started to get great, like let's accept ourselves, 474 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: you know, starting with fat acceptance and all that stuff, 475 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: like the dials moving up to the top of the thing, 476 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 1: and you're like, yes, things are getting great, We're accepting 477 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: ourselves were being healthy for health sake, not for the scale, 478 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: and then it whoops, it kept going and so now 479 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: we're being like, oh, all you other women are gress looking, 480 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: and it's like, okay, come on, come on, You've been 481 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 1: fighting against the fat stigma for so long and now 482 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: you're turning around and telling another group of women that 483 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: they look bad. Right, Because the thing is, it all exists. 484 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: I keep saying that that it's a spectrum, because it 485 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: really is. You can plot out body shaming along a 486 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: spectrum that all revolves around our perceptions of acceptable amounts 487 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: of women's control over their own bodies, to where fat 488 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: shaming revolves around women not having enough control over it 489 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: or not exerting enough control. And then the other end 490 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: of it is thin shaming that revolves around accusations of 491 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: women exerting too much control. Oh, she cares, she goes 492 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: to the gym too much, she watches too much what 493 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: she eats, And it's like, well, where is that happy medium, 494 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: because then we are going to get into the issue 495 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: of well, this is like this is the appropriate female 496 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: uniform body and this makes me okay, this means that 497 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: I fit in Okay, in the world, and that you know, 498 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: all of I'm wearing my politics appropriately. And one reason too, 499 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: that we've spent a bulk of this podcast talking about 500 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: weight bias in the terms of fat shaming is because 501 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:59,479 Speaker 1: really all of the research is focused on fat bias, 502 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: because I don't think that the idea of thin shaming 503 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: has even been a topic of conversation until the past 504 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: few years. I mean, there was that two thousand eleven 505 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: study that it simply acknowledged that it exists. Other than that, 506 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: I found no mention of it in research. I feel 507 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: like it's only something that's been you know that women 508 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: are starting to raise their hand every now and then 509 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: saying hey, I really don't like those real women have 510 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: curves memes, and I think a lot of a lot 511 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: of people, a lot of women come back and say, well, 512 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: you'r thin, what do you have to worry about? Like 513 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: why what do you so? What do you so? But 514 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: heard over the idea of thin privilege, thin privilege. I mean, 515 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: I get that the fact of the matter is when 516 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: it comes to our Western beauty ideals, thin is more desirable, 517 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: But I don't know, it's like, once starting to talk 518 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: about thin privilege just starts pitting women's bodies against each other. 519 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: And that's not it's just not good for what is 520 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: that teaching little girls? That's what I try to that's 521 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: my self check a lot of times. Is okay, I 522 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: can have these conversations with adult women, that's fine, But 523 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: what is all of this teach little girls? What are 524 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: they seeing? They're seeing women fight with each other. They're 525 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: hearing you know what is best, what is real, what 526 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: is right? Rather than you are you? And that's great. 527 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: It's almost like how you registered to vote. You've got 528 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: to check that box about what you are, Republican, Democrat, whatever. 529 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: It's almost like, alright, little girl, now you have to 530 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: pick are you going to be slim, slender, thin? Are 531 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: you going to be large, curvy and big boned? And 532 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: then you've got a pretty much fight for the rest 533 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: of your life against the person who's the other body type. Yeah. 534 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: And this isn't to say that we don't need a 535 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: massive media makeover of the images that we are being delivered. 536 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: I mean, say what you will about the Dove Real 537 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: Bodies campaign. Some of it is it's it's not all perfect, 538 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: but it is good to see more women of different 539 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: and various sizes on billboards, in magazines, on television. We 540 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: need to see more of that, but we But it 541 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that we just have to throw all of 542 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: these thinner bodies under the bus, because I've also talked 543 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: to women and heard for many women in response to 544 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: doing this topic who were you know, are naturally thin 545 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: and have been bullied mercilessly because of it, have been 546 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: told go eat a sandwich more times than they can count, 547 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: and have been uh, you know, told to the whole 548 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: thing of what is it? Ah, real men like curves, 549 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: dogs eat bones, which is disgusting. Well, you know, I 550 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: mean we we touched on this in our our Thin 551 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: Spow fits Bow episode, you know, talking about all those 552 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: things that are on Pinterest or Tumbler or wherever they are, 553 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: and um, I don't I feel like I feel like 554 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: this is such a it's of course it's a touchy subject, 555 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: and I feel like in that episode in particular, we 556 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: touched a nerve because I think there were a lot 557 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: of people who were like, well, if you're being offended 558 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: by this stuff, obviously your overweight and unhealthy, and you 559 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: don't have a sense of humor and or or um 560 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: taking issue that you know, what fits bow and and 561 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: what could be perceived as things Bow really gets me motivated. 562 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: This actually keeps me healthy, you know, and and gets 563 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: me like going jogging whenever I need to. Right, And 564 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: I think, like we said in the fits Bow episode, 565 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: and I'll say it again here and I kind of 566 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: already said it, but I'll say it again. Uh, whatever 567 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: motivates you to be the healthy person that you need 568 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: to be and that you should be, I don't think 569 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: needs to come at the expense of some other person's 570 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: body shape or some other person's health or mental well being. Yeah. 571 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: There was an article in Shameless magazine about this, and 572 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: I felt like they put it so well, talking about 573 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,479 Speaker 1: the problem with things like the real women have curves 574 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: memes that we see, Uh, they say, quote that's supposed 575 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: to be an empowering message to women. You don't have 576 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: to be a victorious secret model to be beautiful, but 577 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: it's completely undermined by too much older memes divide and 578 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: conquer and the male gays essentially saying like all this 579 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,479 Speaker 1: is really doing if you really focused in on this 580 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: conversation of curvy bodies or what men really want, what 581 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: are we doing then we're figuring out the best way 582 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: to objectify ourselves. We're trying. Basically, we're conversing about what's 583 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: the most palatable for dudes, which is not helping anybody 584 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: except maybe guys. I don't know, but I don't. I 585 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: don't think i've ever I'm trying to recall a conversation 586 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: over hearing a conversation among guy friends body shaming each other. 587 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: I can't think of one. I really can't of like, 588 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: he should he should go, Bob should really go eat 589 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: a sandwich. I don't think I've ever heard that, unless 590 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: Bob was like really hungry and talking about how we 591 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: really would like to go the sandwich. Yeah, I don't know. 592 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: I feel like men's body conversations are more about body 593 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: hair and or muscularity. Real men have biceps. Is that 594 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: the way that it would Yeah, the way that it 595 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: would happen. I mean not to say also not to 596 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: discount men's body image issues there, you know there, we 597 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: could talk about that for an entire podcast as well. 598 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 1: And guys, if you want to hear about it, if 599 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: you want to hear two women talk about male body image, 600 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: will do it. But I just I just see it 601 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: so often on on the Internet and on social media 602 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: where girls spend so much time. And in the same 603 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: way that that Delia's image of really thin girls with 604 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,879 Speaker 1: really wide thy gaps just kind of transformed the way 605 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: I looked at my body. These kinds of images of 606 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: real women look like this or this is you know, 607 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,479 Speaker 1: this is disgusting, This isn't disgusting. Those kinds of meme 608 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 1: images that are supposed to be empowering can similarly alienate girls. 609 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 1: But then bringing it all home, we can think about 610 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: the brew haha over at targets website where they had 611 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: the biggest photoshop fail I oh God. And and for 612 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: those of you who don't know what I'm referring to, 613 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,879 Speaker 1: basically on targets website, they were selling bathing suits and 614 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,240 Speaker 1: they photoshopped a thigh gap on one of the models, 615 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: but they didn't stop at the thighs. I don't know 616 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 1: if the mouse slipped out from someone's hand and then 617 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: it didn't go through an approval process, but they basically 618 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: made a vagina gap as well, a volval gap, not 619 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: just the thigh gap. That just kept going and people 620 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 1: were like, um, this is this is getting ridiculous. Now, Yeah, 621 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,439 Speaker 1: I mean, basically, it was clear that they had gotten caught, 622 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: that they were photoshopping thigh gaps. But the good news is, 623 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I do think that, partially because of the Internet, 624 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 1: I do think that girls are more media savvy today 625 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: in the sense of knowing what photoshop is, knowing the 626 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: airbrushing exists. But it's still yes, and and it's still 627 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: you're still being presented with certain images all the time, 628 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: being bombarded with certain messages all the time. And if 629 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: you fall outside of that very narrow space, then on 630 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: either side, then you do you you know, it's possible 631 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: that you'll feel like a complete outsider, that you'll feel 632 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: like you're not as attractive, and people will make you 633 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: feel that way. Yeah, I mean, I just think that 634 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: whenever these conversations come up, it's so important to pay 635 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: attention to whether we are attacking the root of the 636 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: problem or just someone who doesn't look like us, you know. 637 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: And also, I mean, I think it's important to to 638 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: take pause that um, you know, if if you are 639 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: if you're talking to another woman about body issues, like 640 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: you don't necessarily know what that person has looked like 641 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: for the entirety of their lives and what has been 642 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: told to them about what their body looks like, whether 643 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: it might be a lot thinner than yours or might 644 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: be a lot larger than yours. And I mean, I know, 645 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,919 Speaker 1: you know plus sized women who have like so much 646 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: more body confidence than I ever will. And you know 647 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: you can say the same thing about someone who is 648 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: much thinner and fitter and has like just a body 649 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: made out of made out of muscle. I don't know, 650 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: I just I I it's just disheartening to see these 651 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: conversations so often spiral into women attacking other women rather 652 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: than really taking a look at how to kind of 653 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: make life better for future girls by focusing on the 654 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: roots of the problem. How do we do that, Caroline? 655 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: How do we how do we route this stuff from 656 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: the source? I don't know, Man, just loudly support our 657 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: sisters so that girls can hear. Yeah, I mean, remembering 658 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: in those studies that women are as complicit and wait 659 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: bias as men are. This isn't an attack against men. 660 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 1: We are just as guilty. We gotta stop it. So 661 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: I'm sure that this has sparked a lot of thoughts 662 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: in our listeners and guys. I know this conversation has 663 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: been largely focused on women, but we we do not 664 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: want to exclude you. We want to hear from you 665 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: as well. So all of your thoughts on this. Have 666 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: you experienced wait bias, whether it's fat shaming, thin shaming, 667 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 1: and do you have ideas as to how we stop 668 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: this and perhaps save future girls from body hate? Let 669 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: us know. Moms Stuff at Discovery dot com is where 670 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: you can email us. You can also tweet us and 671 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcasts or messages on Facebook, and we've got 672 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now. Okay, well, 673 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: I have a message here from a fellow Kristen Kristen 674 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:55,240 Speaker 1: Um about online dating. She says, I wanted to share 675 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: my new online dating success filled life. Currently, I'm engaged 676 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 1: to someone I met on okay Cupid. Both of my 677 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: fiance's brothers met their current partners on okay Cupid. One 678 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: is getting married before us and the other just started 679 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: dating an awesome woman. Two of my best friends are 680 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: either married or getting married next month to people they 681 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 1: met on okay Cupid. Apparently we're all too cheap to 682 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: pay for dating sites, but we seem to be having 683 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: really good luck. So thank you, Kristen and Uh, you 684 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: are you and pretty much everybody in your life is 685 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 1: a great success story. Well, I've got an email here 686 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: from Sarah and she wrote us about our women in 687 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: Science episode and also our a d h D episode, 688 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: And I just want to focus in on her conversation 689 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 1: about a d D medication because we talked about adderall 690 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 1: and we referred to it as a wonder drug a 691 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: number of times, and we're sort of talking about it's 692 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 1: abuse among people who don't have a diagnosis for a 693 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: d h D. Just want to clarify that because she 694 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: brings up a good point about how she writes being 695 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: on medication and just brings me up to where most 696 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,760 Speaker 1: people normally operate. It doesn't give me any sort of superpowers. 697 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 1: In college, it still felt like I had to work 698 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 1: way harder than my classmates to study and to get 699 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:11,799 Speaker 1: things done on time. But at least I had the 700 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: drive to do well. My mind still wanders, which can 701 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,479 Speaker 1: be helpful in looking at issues from a different angle 702 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: than they have been considered before, but it can also 703 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: wig out the spouse with how incredibly random I am. 704 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: Like the other day, he showed me a picture on 705 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: Facebook of a little boy with his head being slobbered 706 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: on by a camel, and my reply was, huh, I 707 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: wonder if giraffes are ruminants. My brain. Camels have no 708 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,320 Speaker 1: top teeth at the front of their upper palette classified 709 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: as ruminants, as our lamas, which are South American camelids 710 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: but aren't really ruminants like goats and cheap etcetera, etcetera. 711 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: And this goes on and on and on. She says, 712 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: all this happened in about three seconds, and and for 713 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: the record, giraffes are the tallest ruminants on Earth. In search, 714 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: Shooting Star, your Lovely Heart, music, and the words, the 715 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: more you know. In the years since, the notion that 716 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: ad D is overdiagnosed has led to some of the 717 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 1: people close to me to try to convince me that 718 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: I don't actually need the medication that I take, and 719 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: I just want to punch these people in the throat 720 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: because I was diagnosed on the later side. I've developed 721 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: coping mechanisms to get by, but it was such a 722 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 1: struggle and it continues to be an uphill battle to 723 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,760 Speaker 1: wrestle my brain into getting organized. Just as I wouldn't 724 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: deny corrective lenses to those who can't see properly, Nor 725 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,439 Speaker 1: would I deny insulin to a diabetic. Telling someone who 726 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: really has a d D to go without medication is unhelpful. 727 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: I could write more, but I just noticed something shiny 728 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: and must investigate. So thank you Sarah for not only 729 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,280 Speaker 1: your insights but also your hilarity, and thanks to everybody 730 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: who's written into us. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com 731 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: is where you can send us your emails, and we'll 732 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: also have up all of the study citations from all 733 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: the research that we talked about in our body shaming episode. 734 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 1: And to find that, as well as all of our 735 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,919 Speaker 1: social media links, videos, and blog posts, head on over 736 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 1: to stuff and I've Never Told You dot com for 737 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,320 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it 738 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com