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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, trust for trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a squat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lived. To you, I've never had a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome and to trust Me. The podcast about cults,

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Speaker 2: extreme belief and manipulation from two actual former cult members

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Speaker 2: who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc.

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Speaker 4: And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: And today our guest is incredible actor, musician, and now

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Speaker 2: author Bethany Joy Lenz, whom we're just gonna call Joy.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 2: Joy was the star of hit TV show you may

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Speaker 2: have seen, One Tree Hill, and today she's going to

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Speaker 2: talk to us about how she was in a Christian

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Speaker 2: cult the entire time she was filming the show. She's

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Speaker 2: going to tell us about her upbringing and her career

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Speaker 2: as a young actor living in La on her own

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Speaker 2: and joining a small Bible study group that seemed like

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Speaker 2: the perfect place to share a community with like minded

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Speaker 2: young Christian actors, And how a charismatic preacher named Les

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Speaker 2: began showing up, leading the meetings and changing everything.

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Speaker 1: She'll tell us about going to a house in Idaho

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Speaker 1: they called the God Spa, how she was dragged at

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Speaker 1: the house but did not realize until later, And how

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Speaker 1: Les began to exert more and more control over her life,

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Speaker 1: including isolating her from her family and taking over her finances,

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Speaker 1: which were being drained without her knowledge the entire time

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Speaker 1: she was working on a hit television show, and how

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Speaker 1: the groups hold over her led her to turning down

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Speaker 1: her dream role and her dream Broadway play. That part

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Speaker 1: was really hard to read. This book is great.

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Speaker 2: It's a really really good book. Plus how she discovered

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Speaker 2: her money was gone and finally decided.

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Speaker 1: To leave the name of the book is Dinner for

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Speaker 1: Vampire's life on a cult TV show while also in

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Speaker 1: an actual cult great.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it is so good and she is so incredible

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Speaker 2: to talk to. And before we before we delve, Delve, Delve,

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Speaker 2: before we delve, Yeah, it was cute Into Joy's life Megan. Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's election day today. As we're recording this, Tomorrow is

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Speaker 2: going to be crazy. We don't know what's going to happen. No,

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Speaker 2: But since we don't know what's going to happen yet,

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Speaker 2: let's talk about something that's not the election. Okay, So

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Speaker 2: what is your cultius thing of the week?

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Speaker 1: Well, she said something in her book that really stood

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Speaker 1: out to me. She made us seem so simple. She said,

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Speaker 1: high demand is a motivator. Success is a drug, and

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Speaker 1: before you know it, you're rationalizing anything in order to

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Speaker 1: meet the demand and get your high. The demand has

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Speaker 1: become your god. And this, to me was the perfect

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Speaker 1: example of how really smart people and really driven people

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Speaker 1: often find themselves in cults other than what we typically

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Speaker 1: think of as a like dumb cult member blah blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Like it's it just reframed the high

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Speaker 1: achiever that a lot of these groups. Straw and let

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Speaker 1: me read a little something from the book. And she's

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Speaker 1: speaking about cultureight now, not her career.

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Speaker 4: She says.

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Speaker 1: One of the reasons she someone like her is a

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Speaker 1: prime target while she has intelligent is because intelligent and

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Speaker 1: ambitious people want to be challenged and someone having high

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Speaker 1: expectations of you is a turn on high demand as

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Speaker 1: a motivator, success as a drug, and before you know it,

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Speaker 1: you're rationalizing anything in order to meet the demand and

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Speaker 1: get your high. The demand has become your God very

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Speaker 1: whiplash almost, But you just see how these very very smart, compelling,

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Speaker 1: highly driven people who you don't think of normally being

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Speaker 1: the people who get drawn into cults really are a

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Speaker 1: lot of what we see on the show. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I thought that was a really cool way

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Speaker 1: of putting it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is so true, and that's so interesting. It's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, we talk a lot about how people who

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Speaker 2: are curious end up in cults because they're just open

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Speaker 2: and want to explore. But it is true that like

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Speaker 2: for high achievers, like a value placed in overcoming an

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Speaker 2: obstacle or learning how to do something, or you know,

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Speaker 2: like doing something difficult, and what's more difficult than being

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Speaker 2: in occult with a never ending moving goalpost what your

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Speaker 2: you can never quite get there? I mean that totally

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Speaker 2: makes sense to me. I love that.

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Speaker 1: I always come back to like Nexium and not Frame,

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Speaker 1: you know, because they were really giving a lot of

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Speaker 1: high achieving people really difficult tasks that just kept them

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Speaker 1: very wrapped up and not realizing that they were an act.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's certainly what appealed to someone like me,

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Speaker 2: if wrapped in the right you know, wrapping where if

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Speaker 2: it was, if it was if it was appealing to

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Speaker 2: my particular sensibilities, you know, like as I think Nexium

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Speaker 2: would if I were in the.

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, I can see you in Exiom.

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Speaker 1: Wellow, so you know that's my group. Yeah, I see

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Speaker 1: you in it. I'm in Heaven's Gate. Okay, Yeah, you're

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Speaker 1: in Heavens Gate. Yeah, I'm for sure in Heaven's Gate. Okay,

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Speaker 1: But what about what about you? What's your cultiest thing

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Speaker 1: of the week?

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Speaker 2: Michael, tiest thing is is nice and light and it's

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Speaker 2: not actually very culty, but it's just that I went

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Speaker 2: to Okay, so there's I go to a lot of

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Speaker 2: film festivals. I go to a lot of horror film

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Speaker 2: festivals because for those of you who do not know,

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Speaker 2: I'm a director as well as a music artist. But

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Speaker 2: so this is my fifth year of doing like the

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Speaker 2: festival circuit, and it's my fifth year going back to

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Speaker 2: this one called film Quest. Shout out because I know

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Speaker 2: a lot of people go to film Quest listen to

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Speaker 2: this podcast, and it's like just such a wonderful community.

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Speaker 2: It's like a totally unpretentious, loving, welcoming community of like

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Speaker 2: genre filmmakers, which is something you just don't get that

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Speaker 2: often as a director because a lot of film festivals

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Speaker 2: are trying to be prestigious. They're trying to be make

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Speaker 2: you feel like you're cool if you get in, so

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Speaker 2: then you know, the attitude there is like a little exclusive,

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Speaker 2: and this is just completely the opposite of that. And

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Speaker 2: I think everyone there is like genuinely just loves horror

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Speaker 2: and like loves hanging out with horror people and a

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Speaker 2: bunch of world It's like a bunch of nerds. So

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Speaker 2: it's totally harmless. But all I'm saying is that like

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Speaker 2: if someone at a festival like foam Quest decided to

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Speaker 2: start turning it into a cult, this would be the

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Speaker 2: one that I would join, because I'm like, oh, these

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Speaker 2: people are so nice, They're so supportive, they love what

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Speaker 2: I make. This feels so nice. I don't get appreciated

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Speaker 2: anywhere else like this, you know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And therein lies.

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Speaker 1: The rub is that those spaces exist. People love it

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Speaker 1: and then a predator sees it and thinks yay and

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Speaker 1: kind of goes in and takes over. So you might

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Speaker 1: still have that opportunity. Somebody might start a call off

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Speaker 1: of it, and I'll have to rescue you from it.

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Speaker 2: Fortunately, I think Jonathan, who runs the festival, is pretty chill,

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Speaker 2: so I think we're okay. But it's true, like you

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Speaker 2: have a great space like that, and this episode is

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Speaker 2: actually a great example of that. You have a space

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Speaker 2: that is just harmless people having community together and then

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Speaker 2: someone comes in and then everything changes. And is that

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Speaker 2: the perfect segue into our interview, is it?

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Speaker 1: I think it might be. Let's talk to Joy.

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Speaker 4: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Joy to trust me. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: being here in person with us. So great to have you.

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Speaker 2: There's so much we have to talk to you about.

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Speaker 4: Thank you guys for having me. Yeah, I'm excited to

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Speaker 4: dive in.

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Speaker 2: Start us at the very beginning, Like tell us about

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Speaker 2: your upbringing, what was your family life like, and what

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Speaker 2: role did faith play in your life?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll give you the reader's digest version. I was

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Speaker 4: the only child. My parents got married and they were

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Speaker 4: really young, you know, twenty two I think is when

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Speaker 4: my mom had me, and they didn't have much money,

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Speaker 4: and they were just really struggling through life in a

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Speaker 4: lot of ways. And there was also a long lineage

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Speaker 4: of codependence and addiction in my family too, and so

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Speaker 4: there were, you know, just young kids trying to figure

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Speaker 4: it out. And they had this strong faith Christian faith

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Speaker 4: that they grew up in the seventies is that sort

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Speaker 4: of Jesus Revolution moment, and you know, really wonderful, loving people,

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Speaker 4: but moved around a lot, and I felt pretty isolated

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Speaker 4: as a kid because I was just always we were

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Speaker 4: always bound and around from house to house following whatever

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Speaker 4: jobs my parents were picking up in different places. And

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Speaker 4: other than my cocker spaniel, Jesus was my best friend.

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Speaker 4: And so you know, I was sweet and I really

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Speaker 4: like fell into it or walked or I don't know,

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Speaker 4: I wandered into this space of faith. Actually I made

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Speaker 4: a deliberate choice. When I was seven. I remember having

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Speaker 4: this really like overwhelming awareness of my humanity in a

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Speaker 4: way that seven year olds don't like now that I'm

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Speaker 4: older and I look back and I have a daughter,

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Speaker 4: and when she was seven, I'm like, how did I

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Speaker 4: have this comprehend this like existential comprehension of life. When

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Speaker 4: I was seven years old enough to decide that, like,

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Speaker 4: this was the path of faith, I wanted to choose,

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Speaker 4: but I did, and so I followed that, And I

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Speaker 4: really always tended to my relationship with God and in

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Speaker 4: the ways that I knew how based on the exposure

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Speaker 4: that I was given. And then when I got older,

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Speaker 4: moved to New York City and started really pursuing my

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Speaker 4: faith journey on my own without my parents. But I

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Speaker 4: did feel really lated as a child that did really

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Speaker 4: long for family. I really wanted a place to belong

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Speaker 4: and that was probably my core wound that you know,

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Speaker 4: led us into everything that we're going to talk about here. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, family is a recurring theme in your book, which

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Speaker 2: we both devoured. By the way, it's so very good.

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Speaker 2: I finished it in a night and a morning. It

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Speaker 2: is very interesting. I feel like we hear a lot

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Speaker 2: of stories about people who were raised religious and that

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Speaker 2: was sort of their path into a cult. And I'm

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Speaker 2: so happy to be talking to you today because you

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Speaker 2: really lay out the process of indoctrination on a young

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Speaker 2: but adult mind. Yeah, in a way that it can

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Speaker 2: be kind of hard for people to wrap their heads around,

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Speaker 2: like so much of it is like, oh, I was

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Speaker 2: born into it, my parents led me into it, yeah,

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Speaker 2: or I don't know that it can be talked about

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Speaker 2: in a very clinical way, but I feel like I

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Speaker 2: was really with you emotionally every step of like how

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Speaker 2: you were indoctrinated by this man who we will talk.

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Speaker 1: About, Oh we sure well, Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: And just like so people kind of understand where you

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Speaker 2: were at professionally at this time. I'm like, what was

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Speaker 2: happening for you in your acting career when you first

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Speaker 2: met the group.

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Speaker 4: I had been doing really well as an actor. I

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Speaker 4: started working professionally when I was about twelve after doing

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Speaker 4: years of musical theater, and then started as I continued

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Speaker 4: in my musical theater career, I was also doing commercials

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Speaker 4: and pilots. And I got Stephen King's Thinner, a big

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Speaker 4: movie when I was fourteen, and that was a big deal.

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Speaker 4: And then I was getting a lot of pilots in

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Speaker 4: LA and I had shot two years on The Guiding

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Speaker 4: Light on CBS. There were lots of actors on that

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Speaker 4: show that you know, full circle I came to know

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Speaker 4: years later, and who came on One Tree Hill? And

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Speaker 4: I mean It's just a really cool career trajectory. And

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Speaker 4: I had not yet booked One Tree Hill when I

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Speaker 4: started attending this home group Bible study thing, but it

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Speaker 4: was coming up quickly and there were a lot of

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Speaker 4: other irons in the fire. And I had been doing

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Speaker 4: guest spots on like Felicity and Charmed. I mean, so

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Speaker 4: this is big.

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Speaker 2: You have a career working actor. It is working. And

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Speaker 2: how old were you when you met?

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Speaker 4: I was twenty baby.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so originally who was in the group and how

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Speaker 1: are you brought into it?

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Speaker 4: So my roommate at the time when I moved to LA,

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Speaker 4: I didn't know many people. I had a very small

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Speaker 4: group of friends that I had known peripherally. Some people

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Speaker 4: were just visitors from New York, like people I had

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Speaker 4: known when I was living in New York that were

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Speaker 4: living in LA and visited me, And then some were

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Speaker 4: people who lived out there. But I was a small group.

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Speaker 4: And then my roommate invited me to come to Bible

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Speaker 4: study with her and I needed it. Like nine to

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Speaker 4: eleven had just happened. I just left New York. That

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Speaker 4: was I grew up in Jersey and New York. I

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Speaker 4: was in the city every day every other day since

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Speaker 4: I was twelve years old. Then I moved to the

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Speaker 4: city and lived there, and I felt like so much

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Speaker 4: of a New Yorker that when I was in LA

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Speaker 4: and woke up to nine to eleven, which I write

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Speaker 4: about in Dinner for Vampires, I was just so desperate

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Speaker 4: for community, Like I can't believe the community that I

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Speaker 4: love and that I miss. I want to be there

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Speaker 4: and be a part of it and how and contribute,

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Speaker 4: and like, do I get on a plane? There's no

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Speaker 4: planes flying, how do I get? Like what do I do?

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Speaker 4: And it really I felt even more isolated. And then

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Speaker 4: my roommate said, hey, you know, I know a couple

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Speaker 4: of guys that are doing this Bible study and I

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Speaker 4: think you should come with us come over.

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Speaker 2: And at first it was pretty chill, was great.

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Speaker 4: And all, yeah, yeah, totally the same thing I've been

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Speaker 4: grown up in, in that Protestant charismatic non denominational thing

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Speaker 4: where there's no for listeners who don't know what non

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Speaker 4: denominational is, it's basically Christianity without any of the former

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Speaker 4: philosophers like Calvin or Luther or you know, there's no.

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Speaker 2: Old school structure.

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Speaker 4: It's like we don't want to be bound by the

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Speaker 4: rules of whatever. John Calvin thought, you know whatever, These

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Speaker 4: guys thought, we want to just like kind of free

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Speaker 4: wheel it and let the spirit bring interpretations. And so

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Speaker 4: for me, going to this Bible study felt very just

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Speaker 4: felt very normal, like this, I'm so used to this.

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Speaker 2: And it was other actors, right, Yeah, there were.

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Speaker 4: A lot of other young professionals, young industry profess which

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Speaker 4: kind of gave it cloud because oh, okay, this isn't

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Speaker 4: just random people meeting in the valley.

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Speaker 1: These sounds like a few of them are kind of

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Speaker 1: cute too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that definitely helps, Yeah, it would go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, also artists like creative people and successful.

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Speaker 4: And successful artists, and so there's also this sense of

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Speaker 4: liberalism in a lot of these Christian artistic circles, where

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Speaker 4: it's like, yeah, we believe in Jesus, but also like

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Speaker 4: gay people should be able to get married, and like

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Speaker 4: I'm not. You know, there's this sort of social libertarianism

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Speaker 4: I think in a lot of these circles. And so

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Speaker 4: for artists, you want to be around people who share

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Speaker 4: your faith but who aren't scared of your art too.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean, of course that would feel like

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Speaker 2: an appropriate community for you. Yeah, and it sounds like

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Speaker 2: it was actually in the beginning. Yeah, can you tell

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Speaker 2: us who was was and why that was? Like that

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Speaker 2: first meeting?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, less what's pastor from another state who came in

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Speaker 4: and he was without a church at the time. He

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Speaker 4: was someone that the guys who were running the home

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Speaker 4: group Bible study in LA had met when they went

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Speaker 4: home to Idaho to I don't know, hang out with

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Speaker 4: their family. They're from Idaho, so they I guess they

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Speaker 4: just visited a church. And when his church fell apart

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Speaker 4: or he left it, you know, it's all very vague

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Speaker 4: at the time. Of course I found out later and

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Speaker 4: that's also in the book. But when he left his church,

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Speaker 4: then he got into a space of connecting with us

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Speaker 4: on a more of a regular basis, coming down to La, visiting,

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Speaker 4: checking in with us. Just it was a real slow

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Speaker 4: burn transition.

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Speaker 1: What did he look like?

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Speaker 4: What was his vibe? He's a man in his mid

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Speaker 4: to late forties. You know, he was really charismatic in

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Speaker 4: a non car salesmany kind of way. You know, what's

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Speaker 4: interesting about actors getting sucked in by this guy is

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Speaker 4: like actors are professional bullshit detectors. That's what we're supposed

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Speaker 4: to be able to do now. We were all very young,

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Speaker 4: and so there's a longevity in your career that sometimes

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Speaker 4: it takes to really learn how to do that effectively.

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Speaker 4: But you should be able to drop into a moment

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Speaker 4: in a scene and know whether the other person that

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Speaker 4: you're doing a scene with is being authentic or whether

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Speaker 4: they're acting. And if they're acting, the scene doesn't go

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Speaker 4: very well, it's really hard to respond and play off

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Speaker 4: of them. And he was so authentic and so dropped

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Speaker 4: into his body and so like not creepy and not

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Speaker 4: like it just he just seemed like a sweet dad

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Speaker 4: figure kind of guy who was just nice to everybody

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Speaker 4: and really like self effacing, made fun of himself all

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Speaker 4: the time. It was really just kind of like like

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Speaker 4: so unassuming, so unassuming, and you think, oh, that's so humble,

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Speaker 4: and you know, again, we were in our early twenties.

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Speaker 4: You have the life experience. You put it somewhere.

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Speaker 1: I can't find exactly how you said it, but it

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Speaker 1: was like he was really good at saying bold, huge

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Speaker 1: things in a very small, like right off way that

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Speaker 1: you're just like, oh, what, that's so simple and like

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Speaker 1: true and I feel like that's really dangerous.

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Speaker 4: That's the bullshit detector thing, right if somebody comes in

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Speaker 4: and they say something really bold and then they say

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Speaker 4: it in a way that is like a big deal,

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Speaker 4: and you need to pay at performance, and as an actor,

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Speaker 4: you're like, you're performing. I know, I leave you. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: So yeah he was. I don't know if he was smarter,

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Speaker 4: if he just really, like any good sociopath, believed his

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Speaker 4: own bullshit. I don't know. That's always the question that about.

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Speaker 2: We got down to ye, how did his involvement in

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Speaker 2: this otherwise innocuous Bible study group grow? And how did

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Speaker 2: he become a bigger part of your life?

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Speaker 4: He became a bigger part of my life just as

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Speaker 4: the group went on. You know, I got one tree Hill,

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Speaker 4: and he was over the course of the year when

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Speaker 4: I was going to the group and he was coming,

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Speaker 4: and then I started booking all these jobs and then

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Speaker 4: I got one tree Hill. It took about a year,

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Speaker 4: and he was, you know, as I said, checking in

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Speaker 4: with us. We were all just kind of doing life together,

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Speaker 4: which that was like the buzzword doing life together, Oh wow,

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Speaker 4: and which you also hear in a lot of Christian

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Speaker 4: churches that's a very this is our tribe, your you know,

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Speaker 4: chosen family, and he really invested and as a young

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Speaker 4: person and for a lot of us in the group

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Speaker 4: that were missing a father figure connection that was emotionally available,

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Speaker 4: Like I love my dad. We were always very close,

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Speaker 4: but it was a very cerebral relationship. He taught me

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Speaker 4: so much about critical thinking, and even though I didn't

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Speaker 4: know how to put into practice when I was twenty,

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Speaker 4: I think it really helped get me out and.

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Speaker 2: On the other side.

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Speaker 4: But the emotional availability was something I was really longing

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Speaker 4: for and less filled that void for me and a

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Speaker 4: lot of other people in the group.

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Speaker 1: He was so smart to call it your bio family

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Speaker 1: and then your spiritual family.

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Speaker 4: And then there's so many parallels to me with this

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Speaker 4: with the Sarah Lawrence, but.

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Speaker 2: The college Sarah. Yeah, the man who sort of like

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Speaker 2: a little cult there, Sarah Lawrence my father, someone's father.

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Speaker 1: He's very like I used to be in the Army,

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Speaker 1: emotionally available to everybody who.

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Speaker 4: Is kind of vulnerable, and like it just so annoying

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Speaker 4: now as an older woman with a daughter who's gotten

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Speaker 4: out of all this, Like it's so annoying for the

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Speaker 4: men who are really just good guys that want to

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Speaker 4: invest and care about the youth and the young generation

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Speaker 4: that they've got to contend with being.

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Speaker 1: Like well, like, there's only two kinds of people that

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Speaker 1: are interested in helping kids, creepy people and the best people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and the creepy people can look like the best.

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Speaker 1: Ye, it's very difficult to do.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about some of the conversations that

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Speaker 2: he started to have with you, guys that were shutting

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Speaker 2: off your critical thinking or like teaching you to show

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Speaker 2: off your critical thinking. There was the like don't get

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Speaker 2: mad at him, love the negativity out of him conversations.

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Speaker 4: Tell us about that, Yeah, that's one of the first

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Speaker 4: conversations that I remember. Things really shifting, And I write

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Speaker 4: about this in the book is a Night at Bible Study,

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Speaker 4: and the topic comes up of speaking the truth quote

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Speaker 4: unquote the truth into someone. Right. So, if you were

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Speaker 4: someone who was constantly complaining about always as your friend,

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Speaker 4: instead of coming to you and saying, can I be

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Speaker 4: honest with you? You complain a lot, and it's hard

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Speaker 4: to be around you. I love you, but like that's

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Speaker 4: really tough. Instead of being honest and direct, which I

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Speaker 4: think would be the healthy way, of doing that in

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Speaker 4: a safe zone, as in friendship. The encouragement for us

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Speaker 4: was we only speak the truth. So you go to

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Speaker 4: someone who's.

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Speaker 2: Really complaining, truths in air quotes.

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Speaker 4: Truth is in air quotes. You go to your friend

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Speaker 4: who's complaining all the time, and you say, you are

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Speaker 4: just the most grateful person I've ever met, Like, you

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Speaker 4: appreciate all the little things in life, and it is

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Speaker 4: such a joy to be around you.

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Speaker 1: I've honestly, in different self help groups have heard the

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Speaker 1: same thing, yes, and have been like, that makes sense

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Speaker 1: to me, because sometimes they are a little bit grateful

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Speaker 1: and I'll just like poke on that and help them

421
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Speaker 1: expand it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's something to the idea of positive reinforce.

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Speaker 1: Sure, but you're also going over your conscious mind and yes,

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Speaker 1: like lying to yourself end to them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's nothing wrong here. Actually I love this quality

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Speaker 2: about them.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's it.

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Speaker 4: It's the slow rewiring of your neural pathways to believe

429
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Speaker 4: something that is not true. And you, as you can see,

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Speaker 4: it got way worse than much more. He was much

431
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Speaker 4: more emboldened as the story goes on, But in the beginning,

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Speaker 4: you have to do that with something super normal like

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Speaker 4: you say you read this in self help books. It's

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Speaker 4: in the Bible to Spino speak truth about people in

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Speaker 4: those ways. There's like a whole section about how that

436
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Speaker 4: was justified that night in the group, and it was

437
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Speaker 4: really the beginning of the whole slow burn. Just dropping

438
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Speaker 4: that in and see how people respond. How does everybody

439
00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 4: respond to this? Is there anybody getting a red flag? Like, well,

440
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 4: I don't know if this is really the way we

441
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 4: should do it. The people who have really had the

442
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 4: red flags about that, you'll see how he interacted with

443
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,479
Speaker 4: them as the story goes on. And the people who

444
00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,239
Speaker 4: were just blindly like me, who was like I love that, Like,

445
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,880
Speaker 4: I love that idea. I would love to just encourage

446
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 4: people and not have to think about the things in

447
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 4: people that I don't like.

448
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 1: Like, blindly implies some sort of inherent I don't know.

449
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 1: I guess you were naive, but you also just cared

450
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,119
Speaker 1: a lot. You just yeah, you're wired about life and

451
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 1: you just wanted to be good.

452
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was empathetic, like I wanted to be a

453
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 2: better person.

454
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,679
Speaker 1: But like I always find it interesting when the leaders

455
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 1: start turning up the heat and seeing who kind of

456
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:32,719
Speaker 1: falls away. Yeah, and they want those people to fall right,

457
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 1: and that that's scary, no.

458
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 4: Room for doubt. So people who are going to be

459
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,200
Speaker 4: sowing in seats of doubt to any of the other people,

460
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:40,239
Speaker 4: they gotta go.

461
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 1: I see in the cl I was raised and like

462
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 1: they're kind of raising the heat and weird areas to

463
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 1: I think, get rid of people who are, yes, not

464
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 1: going to start stirring.

465
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 4: And I saw it happen. I mean we were the

466
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,400
Speaker 4: group was like between fifteen and twenty people at any

467
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 4: given and not not usually all at one time, but

468
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 4: any given time throughout that year, and a lot of them,

469
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 4: I mean probably half the people who were there at

470
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,640
Speaker 4: the beginning fell off by the time he was really

471
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 4: had had seated himself as the leader.

472
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 2: I mean, if you don't want to be subjected to

473
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 2: criticism or have anyone check your power at any point,

474
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:17,679
Speaker 2: it's a very smart thing to do.

475
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, you got assess them out.

476
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 2: I also just wanted to mention that you also wrote

477
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 2: about how you talk about how there was an enemy,

478
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:26,879
Speaker 2: the enemy was going to launch at tax on the group.

479
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 2: Did that raise red flags for you at all?

480
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 4: That's total charismatic language. That's that's very common. I actually

481
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 4: I think that's probably a most Christian.

482
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 2: Geno is just like evangelical. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot

483
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,880
Speaker 2: of that. Yeah, so it just resonated. It just felt

484
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 2: like what you had always kind of heard.

485
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it did. It did.

486
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 4: And it's just another word for darkness or you know,

487
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 4: if you're if you're a different religion, there's like there's

488
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 4: light and dark. If it's if you talk about the

489
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 4: universe and you don't subscribe to a particular god believe,

490
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 4: then there's yang.

491
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I believe that.

492
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 4: You know, it's just a lingo. So to me, it

493
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 4: didn't that didn't throw me off.

494
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 2: Okay, I feel like you said something that there was

495
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 2: this idea that they were going to launch attacks on

496
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 2: the group, and that was just a sign that you

497
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 2: were doing the right thing.

498
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. Because the idea is there's a physical

499
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 4: realm and there's a spirit realm. So there are things

500
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 4: that are going on that we can't see in the

501
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 4: non physical world. There's a battle between light and dark,

502
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 4: and if you're doing good things in the world, there

503
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 4: is a spotlight on you in the dark spiritual realm

504
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 4: because it sees what you're doing and wants to stop it.

505
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 4: And so then there would be uh, spiritual attacks headed

506
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 4: in your direction specifically because you're making so many, so

507
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 4: many efforts.

508
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 2: To do When we had that, I would get warnings

509
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,199
Speaker 2: as a kid about how like i'd wake up and

510
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 2: see demons if I had been sinning oh my God

511
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 2: too much, or if like you are on the right

512
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 2: righteous path, like the Satan's going to try.

513
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: To I feel like that's true when whenever I start

514
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 1: to get a better habit or something, there seems to

515
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 1: be a million things that come.

516
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 4: Up to like fight against it.

517
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: It's just I feel like it's like a resistance thing.

518
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 4: Not a spiritual thing. Yeah, I mean that's it's age old.

519
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 4: What's who said that quote that it's a fucking kaiser?

520
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 4: So say, right, like in the Usual Suspects, the greatest

521
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,880
Speaker 4: trick the devil ever pulled was making the world believe

522
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 4: it didn't exist or he didn't exist.

523
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: Right right right before.

524
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, So yeah, this is this is an age old

525
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 4: philosophical theological theory, and it's it's morphed and used and

526
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 4: weaponized in many different ways in many different religions and

527
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 4: cultures as well. But yeah, it does it. So it

528
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 4: didn't throw me off because I was just like, oh, well, yeah,

529
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 4: that does make sense. It's the same thing you're talking

530
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 4: about when i've oh, I've gotten doing really well in

531
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 4: my new workout art, I got mono.

532
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: But it still is priming the way he's using his language.

533
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 2: It's priming, y'all. Yeah, to think of anyone who disagreed

534
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 2: with him or question timor criticized him. That's the enemy.

535
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 4: Yes, that's how it was weaponized. And what was really

536
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 4: brilliant about the way he did it was that he

537
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 4: wouldn't label that person. It's not like scientology where they'll

538
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 4: say that's a suppressive person, and you can clearly identify

539
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 4: that that person has been labeled. What he would do

540
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 4: is say, we love that person, like I love that person.

541
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 4: That's a really great person, but they're not spiritually mature,

542
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 4: and so the enemy is using them to attack us.

543
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 4: So you have to be careful when you're talking to

544
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 4: that person. You can still be loving, but be careful

545
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 4: because the enemy is working through them.

546
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: Damn he's good, right, good sonipulative?

547
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 1: Oh my god?

548
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 2: All right, So you end up in Idaho for the

549
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 2: first time.

550
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 1: Tell us about this retreat.

551
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I had gone through a major heartbreak.

552
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 4: I was invited by the female leader of the group,

553
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 4: who was the mother of the two boys who had

554
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 4: started it, and she and Less had become really chummy.

555
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 4: She had a lot of skills financially, and she was

556
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 4: also stepped in as the as the mother for a

557
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 4: lot of the young girls that had this warm and

558
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 4: patience that I didn't experience from my own mother because

559
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 4: of our just mother daughter, you know, conflict in our relationship.

560
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 4: So here comes Pam and she's just so loving and sweet,

561
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 4: and it's like, why don't you come up to Idaho

562
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 4: and come stay in our little God spots? Just so peaceful,

563
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 4: the God spot, and you can be whoever you want

564
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 4: to be. There's no expectations of you.

565
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: Well, plane ticket is booked on my end. I get

566
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: away from this heartbreak. So ideal like little Space as a.

567
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 4: Specific Northwest Yeah, the trees and right sound house, and

568
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 4: there's all these loving people who just want to They

569
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 4: give you your space. If you don't want to talk,

570
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 4: nobody wants you don't have to talk. If you want

571
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 4: to go wander around, there's no obligation at all. And

572
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 4: I was shocked. I'd never been in an environment like

573
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 4: that where there was no obligation, there's no social especially

574
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 4: as somebody who's nero divergent. I always felt so awkward

575
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 4: in social scenarios and like, what do I do? What

576
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 4: am I supposed to do here? And how do I

577
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 4: behave and perform in order to make everybody feel like

578
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 4: I'm normal so that it's all okay? But you know,

579
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 4: I felt constantly misunderstood as a kid and a teenager,

580
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 4: constantly thought of as just like a real weirdo and

581
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 4: an outcast. And I was always trying to just put

582
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 4: myself in this package of like I'm normal, I'm normal,

583
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 4: it's not weird at all.

584
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: I always have to go back to the fact that

585
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: Lola tried to sell her soul to the Devil for friends.

586
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 3: And I was Norman, so that was like a big deal.

587
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 4: You were rebelling.

588
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,919
Speaker 3: I just wanted friend so bad. I wasn't even I

589
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 3: was like, God didn't do it for me, so Satan

590
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 3: will right?

591
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh my gosh, ohays on a real level.

592
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 2: That just breaks my heart, but also kind of I

593
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 2: did eventually get friends, so Satan did answer my prayers.

594
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 4: Oh my God, And do you still have a soul?

595
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 2: I think so.

596
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 4: Part one just.

597
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,479
Speaker 1: Like being lonely as a teenager, also neurodiversion. It's all

598
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: like my special interest was Sweet Valley High. So I

599
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: just like Sweet Valley High. You know, you're lonely and

600
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 1: when people are giving you these very loving, very accepting

601
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: just like we don't even have to.

602
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 2: Chat, just accessor you want to be weird, I say,

603
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: the weird going your thinking walks.

604
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah thinking.

605
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: So you're like good chill.

606
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I loved it.

607
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 2: I have to ask about the cough syrup, which is

608
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 2: just really horrifying. Yeah, you were given coughs eyuupe by

609
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: a man who was there.

610
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's funny how little of it I remember. It's

611
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 4: like these flashes of getting there. I was sick. I

612
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 4: remember being given a bottle of coughs urah, and I

613
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 4: was really hacking a lot, and I was just like, Okay,

614
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 4: it's fine, I'll just take this and go to bed.

615
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 4: And I woke up and it was two days later,

616
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 4: and I had just been out and I didn't remember

617
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 4: taking more than like a spoonful of it. But one

618
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 4: of the men in the house, who's also living in

619
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 4: the house with these other girls, was someone who had

620
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 4: a history of medicating young women, which you do not

621
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 4: know that at the time. I know I didn't know

622
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 4: at the time, and that all it got explained later

623
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 4: in the book. But there also was a doctor and

624
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 4: his wife involved in the group, and so I don't

625
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 4: know if he wrote the prescripture. I mean, like I

626
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 4: don't know where at all, like how all these things came.

627
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 4: But anyway, I just actually talked with a girlfriend of

628
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 4: mine who I didn't There's so many things I just

629
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 4: didn't have time to put in the book, like you

630
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 4: got to keep the story moving. But she was someone

631
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 4: who'd been involved with one of the members of the group,

632
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 4: and she had a single she was a single mom

633
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 4: with a little girl, and she was in another country

634
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 4: and Less encouraged her to leave the country and move

635
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 4: to Idaho with her daughter, and she was like, well,

636
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 4: I can't because I'm in the middle of like custody stuff,

637
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 4: so if I leave, that's technically kidnapping. And he was like,

638
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 4: just let God deal with that, don't worry about it, Like,

639
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 4: you just leave and do what you need to do

640
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 4: that's right for you and your child, and God will

641
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 4: handle the legal stuff. And she voice texted me a

642
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 4: couple days ago and said, you know what's so crazy,

643
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 4: joy I remember when I got to Idaho. She didn't

644
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 4: end up doing that, but she had come to visit.

645
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 4: She said, when I got to Idaho, I wasn't given

646
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 4: coughs her up, but I was given pills. And I

647
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 4: remember being repeatedly given pills to just like relax me,

648
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 4: call my anxiety. I was like, oh my god, I

649
00:30:58,440 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 4: didn't even know that when I was writing the book.

650
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 4: I just found out the other day. You know, it's

651
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 4: like you're constantly uncovering. I don't know if that was

652
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 4: like that was the experience for you guys too, If

653
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 4: you're constantly just covering things every time it goes every.

654
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: Day you wake up to like a new level where

655
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: you're like, I thought I had a grasp on it,

656
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: but it's crazier.

657
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 4: It's a new information from people that you haven't talked

658
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 4: to in a while or whatever. Yeah. Scary, yeah, so scary, yeah, terrifying.

659
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 2: Like that whole first like week of you being there,

660
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: I felt like I was reading a horror movie. It's like,

661
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: what the what the other shoe is going to drop?

662
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 4: Like what is going to happen?

663
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 2: How did it start to become more just like actually

664
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: controlling your life.

665
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 4: The control had started a long time ago, and what

666
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 4: the training was with the grooming was, really, I should say,

667
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 4: is it's teaching me how to brainwash myself. I don't

668
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 4: love the word brainwash. I've said that before. I don't

669
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 4: know what an alternative is other than rewiring your neural pathways,

670
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 4: which is technically what it is. But it's all the

671
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 4: stuff that you see every time you want to open

672
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 4: Instagram and somebody's telling you how to self motivate, and

673
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 4: the things that you want to say to yourself in

674
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 4: the mirror that your therapist tells you, like rewrite your

675
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 4: narrative and say these things about yourself over and over

676
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 4: again until you believe them. It's not a crazy idea,

677
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 4: it's just it gets really, really unhealthy in this kind

678
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 4: of context. So the control started with those slow like

679
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 4: dropping those little things of here's how you think about

680
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 4: other people, here's the kinds of ways that you can

681
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 4: set boundaries and protect yourself from people who are being

682
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 4: used by the enemy. Here's ways that you can release

683
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 4: yourself from any doubt you might be having about your faith,

684
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 4: about your identity, and just tell yourself these things over

685
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 4: and over and over again. I was taught to just

686
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 4: train myself so that the leadership didn't have to do

687
00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 4: it all the time.

688
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: I think, just on that theme of family too, I mean,

689
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: I think one of the important droplets was Pam kind

690
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: of stepping in as your mom and kind of overstepping

691
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: your mom's place and things like your birthday and.

692
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: Oh yes, can you tell us about the birthday?

693
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, that's that's one of the hardest chapters

694
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 4: in the book because my sweet mom, well sweet maybe

695
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 4: is not the right word. My tough, smart, very loving mom.

696
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 4: She came to my birthday party, my twenty first birthday party,

697
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 4: and you know, she really wanted to be open minded

698
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 4: and accepting and loving and like, okay, there's another woman

699
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 4: who could be a mentor to my daughter in La

700
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 4: and she loves God and she's really kind, and she

701
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 4: knows the entertainment industry because her one of her sons

702
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 4: is in it, like okay, and she came in really

703
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 4: like open hearted. And Pam so clearly was very possessive

704
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 4: over me, very dismissive of my mom as my mother,

705
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 4: just very like you don't really matter, You've kind of

706
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 4: fucked up your daughter, and I'm here to fix it.

707
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, just asserting dominance like this is kind of my daughter.

708
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 4: Yeah. Sorry, yeah, she was like just pissing all over it.

709
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 4: You know. Yeah, dude, I was.

710
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 1: I was so mad.

711
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: I'm reading the reading that chapter. Yeah yeah, for you

712
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: and for your mom. Yeah yeah Pam, what a what

713
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: a lady. But but that was But that is also

714
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 2: like such an important like piece of how you were

715
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 2: becoming indoctrinated is like taking the role of your parents

716
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 2: over basically saying we are your family. You listen to us.

717
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: Yes, he calls you baby, Yeah, sorry, enough to do,

718
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: don't what?

719
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 4: Oh, daddy calls everybody baby?

720
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: So creepy say it again, because I couldn't hear.

721
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 4: I couldn't understand how he was saying. It was a baby.

722
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: Oh, like you're like baby.

723
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was like come here, baby, Ah, so proud

724
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 4: of you baby.

725
00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 2: Oh. I know.

726
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 1: But if it's not, if it doesn't sound prefer it

727
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:07,439
Speaker 1: sounds sexual, then yeah, I'm a baby. Thank you, tak me.

728
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: I know.

729
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 2: But even that, you.

730
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: Well, hindsight, but like in the you know, in the moment,

731
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, another father.

732
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 4: Figure, Oh for sure, for sure.

733
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 2: I mean I just want someone to cradle me and

734
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 2: like tell me I'm I'm a good person. So totally, totally,

735
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: totally understand.

736
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about what covenant

737
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: relationship is and how he was kind of forming it

738
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: as a family.

739
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, that one was. That one was also a lingo

740
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 4: that I was super familiar with the idea of covenant is.

741
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 4: I mean, it's like this, it's a very I want

742
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 4: to say the word it's a biblical thing, but it

743
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 4: might have been something that was a part of society

744
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 4: even before that time. But it's, uh, it's a word

745
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 4: of old, concept of old. Yes, you make a promise

746
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 4: with someone. I think in the Bible, you know, Abraham

747
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 4: makes his promise with God. He cuts the ram into

748
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 4: and God's like I'm going to pass through it. Usually

749
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 4: both people would pass through both sides, and it's like

750
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 4: this very sacred promise. Like if basically you're saying, if

751
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 4: I don't keep my end of this contract, this deal

752
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 4: may what happened to this ram that happened to me.

753
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 4: And so that's why it was all very serious, like.

754
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 2: A spiritual contract. It's a spiritual contract.

755
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 4: And so yeah, so like as I was saying in

756
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 4: the Bible, like God, God passes through instead of an abrah,

757
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 4: He's like, you don't have to Abraham because I'm capable

758
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 4: of keeping all the promise in so anyway, it's a

759
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 4: very very big deal. And it's what marriage in Christianity

760
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 4: is referred to as a covenant as well. It's like

761
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 4: a very very serious binding, spiritual contract. And what Less

762
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 4: began to infer and eventually just say outright, was this

763
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 4: group is akin to a covenantal marriage, like we are

764
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 4: all essentially. He never said these words married to each other,

765
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 4: because I think a lot of us would have been like,

766
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 4: h right, But he did heavily infer that, and it

767
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 4: was that was the idea, is this it's a covenant.

768
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 4: When when you say this is a covenant that we're

769
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 4: all in together, that's the implication.

770
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: So this is the most important relationship in your life.

771
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 4: Most important. You can't break this contract, which is meant

772
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 4: to feel safe. It's like everything about that idea, the

773
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 4: emphasis was put on how safe it's going to make

774
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 4: you feel, because no matter what you do, no matter

775
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 4: how you hurt me, you can be one hundred percent you.

776
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 4: You're free to be who you need to be at

777
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 4: any given moment. You're free to make mistakes and mess up,

778
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 4: and I am guaranteed to never leave you as a friend.

779
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 4: I will always be here.

780
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 2: Very comforting.

781
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: Right.

782
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, you're like, oh, that's so great, but it

783
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 4: never It just doesn't occur to you because you're so

784
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 4: focused on I mean, he's really just building little nurses.

785
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 4: Like that tree can only produce the fruit that it

786
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 4: is has, so he was building this society of little narcissists.

787
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 4: So we're only just thinking about ourselves, like, oh my god,

788
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 4: that's going to be so amazing. I'm going to be

789
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 4: so free to just be me, and you don't think like,

790
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 4: oh wait, but that means I'm stuck to stay with someone.

791
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 4: Even if you start treating me really badly and just

792
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 4: start being a terrible friend and maligning me and triangulating

793
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 4: in my relationships and gossiping about me and stealing my money.

794
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 4: You can do whatever you want to me, and I'm stuck.

795
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 4: I have to stay.

796
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 2: I am a promise, yeah, to never leave you.

797
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

798
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: The other thing about what you're saying that resonates is

799
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of times people who are

800
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 2: still in a group will be like, I'm not being

801
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 2: controlled I'm allowed to be whoever I want to be.

802
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: And that was the narrative that he was providing that

803
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 2: you got to do, you got to be free and

804
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: be yourself. But just because that is the narrative that

805
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 2: you are being fed does not mean that that is

806
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 2: the reality that is happening underneath.

807
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 4: And that's the brilliance of it. In the worst way,

808
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 4: is that these people, these malignant narcissists, convince the people

809
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,919
Speaker 4: in their lives that you want this, you chose this.

810
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 4: If there are problems here, you're creating them because you're

811
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 4: getting in the way of what you've already said that

812
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 4: you want, like you want this leg.

813
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: And they're weaponizing all of your vulnerabilities against you because

814
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: you've already said I feel like I'm maybe fickle or

815
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 1: like this or this, I'm like try, that's you being fickle,

816
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: like you want to pull away.

817
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just you can't be a human being and

818
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 4: you don't realize it because it's a never ending ladder.

819
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 4: You can't stop the.

820
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: Steps always moved, moving goalposts.

821
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: However, yes, when you booked One Tree Hill, how did

822
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: Less react to that? Initially?

823
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 4: I remember him being really happy for me. I was

824
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 4: already so far in emotionally that I don't think there

825
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 4: was much of a threat. I'm sure he was keeping

826
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 4: close tabs on me, you know, he would call and

827
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 4: check in and things, but there were constantly people from

828
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 4: the group coming out to visit and staying with me

829
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 4: for a few weeks at a time, and it was

830
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 4: like he always had a reach over. He always had

831
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 4: his arm out reach.

832
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: And the money is going to not at that point. Okay, okay,

833
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 1: got married yet, Okay, so this point, the money's for you.

834
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 4: The money's for me at this point. And so the

835
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 4: first thing he did was ask me for ten thousand

836
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 4: dollars for a hotel venture that they wanted to pursue

837
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 4: as a quote unquote ministry house. And for somebody who

838
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 4: was making TV money. That was like, okay, that's not

839
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 4: a lot, Like yeah, I feel so grown up. I've

840
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 4: never made a business deal.

841
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 3: Before, invested in something before.

842
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 4: Yeah.

843
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 2: Sure.

844
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 4: And then you know it turned into forty thousand here

845
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 4: and then fifty thousand. Oh that we want to buy

846
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 4: a restaurant, and how about you buy the restaurant for us,

847
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 4: And how about we buy a new swamp cooler and

848
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 4: a new ice cream machine. And let's re furnish the.

849
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,280
Speaker 1: Booths were going to need to make lattes.

850
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 4: Yeah you know what I mean, like all of the things,

851
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 4: and uh, but he was smart, you know all along

852
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 4: the way he included me. It was like, it's like

853
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 4: the friend that you don't hear from for ages, and

854
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 4: then when they have something to promote is when the

855
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 4: first time they reach out to you and it's like

856
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 4: three days before and you're like, oh, amazing, it's so

857
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 4: great to hear from you, and then like oh, three

858
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 4: days later they're like, hey, do you mind could you

859
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 4: put your Like I saw it coming.

860
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: Like yeah, yeah, yeah.

861
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's uh. That's that's how he was. But instead

862
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 4: of just outright coming out and being like, hey, I'm

863
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 4: just calling because we need some cash. How are you

864
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 4: feeling about this? No pressure. It's the manipulation around it

865
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 4: of we're going to do a what did he call it,

866
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 4: the Pallette panel. We're going to do a Pallette panel

867
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 4: for the restaurant. We're going to have the chef make

868
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 4: all these all these new dishes and you can come

869
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 4: and taste them, and we're going to like bring all

870
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 4: the family in and we're gonna like taste all the

871
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 4: new dishes for the restaurant. That's great, that sounds fun. Okay,

872
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 4: you have a new wine, all this stuff. Oh and

873
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 4: while we're here, the guy who's we've been talking to

874
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,720
Speaker 4: somebody about a new espresso machine. He's going to stop

875
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 4: by and just show us some options or whatever. So

876
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 4: we're tasting all these great meals, we're fine, we're drinking wine,

877
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 4: and then it's like, oh, well, this machine is twenty

878
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 4: five thousand dollars, but what do you think do we

879
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 4: need it? I mean it's an Italian restaurant. I guess

880
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 4: we kind of should have come.

881
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: My god, I'm like, bro, just like the amount of

882
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: travel they were having you doing, they were keeping you exhausted,

883
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: and I mean this is from.

884
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 4: That's the thing I didn't notice till later, and that

885
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 4: I found out more as I was like finding out

886
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 4: about colts, that they keep you tired and hungry and

887
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 4: it's busy and exhausted. And I didn't realize how much

888
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 4: the travel because I was thinking, well, they can't do

889
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 4: that to me because I'm all the way out in

890
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 4: North Carolina. I mean, like I have to work, but

891
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 4: they can't. They're not keeping me exhausted. They're not working

892
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 4: me hard. I'm not like doing these ministry hours from

893
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 4: six am to eight pm or nine pm.

894
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: Cleaning the bathroom, right, yeah, right.

895
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 4: But it didn't. It was like the obligation that you

896
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 4: have to come home, like you have to work a

897
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 4: fourteen hour day, wake up at five am, get to

898
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 4: the airport, get home on a flight, and you've got

899
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 4: to be here for the weekend, and you can't leave

900
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 4: till the last flight out on Sunday. And then I

901
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 4: got to wake up the next morning at five houry

902
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 4: another workday.

903
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: It really was exhaust not a brain cell in my brain.

904
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: At that point.

905
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 4: No.

906
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: I want to talk about the interpersonal dynamics on set,

907
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 2: because this could have been had you not been so

908
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: deeply like indoctrinated and controlled at this point emotionally, psychologically, Yeah,

909
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 2: this could have been an opportunity for you to connect

910
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 2: with other people and sort of like get some perspective.

911
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 2: But that didn't really happen, right.

912
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 4: It didn't. I wish it had. That was hard.

913
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 2: Was there guidance on how much you were supposed to

914
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: be interacting or can acting with other people? Was all

915
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:02,720
Speaker 2: just kind of this internal.

916
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think by that point I was pretty self

917
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 4: sustaining in my belief system and who I trusted and

918
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 4: why I would allow some people to come in and

919
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 4: some people not to come in emotionally, So yeah, they

920
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 4: didn't really have to do too much. I just self governed.

921
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 4: And if I started to slip, if I started to

922
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 4: spend more time with my cast and get more involved

923
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 4: and go out and for drinks after work and get

924
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 4: more involved in their personal lives and just caring and

925
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 4: spending time and investing in those relationships, lo and beholds,

926
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 4: another group member would show up for a few weeks

927
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 4: to keep me company and.

928
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: Write, I've never read or thought about something you said

929
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: in the book, and I don't know why, but you

930
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: said it specifically in a way of like I couldn't

931
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: be vulnerable with people because I needed to show them

932
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 1: that as a Christian I was doing great. So you're

933
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 1: trying to be an example. I was always told I

934
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: had to be be an example to people at school.

935
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: I might be the only Bible they ever read. And

936
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 1: so you can't really be a person of people because

937
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: you have to be like, I'm showing you who christis.

938
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 4: It's so bizarre. Did you grow up with a Christian,

939
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 4: and yeah, that was one of the biggest things. I mean,

940
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 4: I'm so grateful because once I got out of all this,

941
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 4: that was one of the biggest realizations. It's like, this

942
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 4: is so completely antithetical to the whole point of Jesus' ministry.

943
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 4: The whole thing is be human, make mistakes, be you

944
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 4: like I got you. I'm here, I got you. There's

945
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 4: no obligation for you to be perfect or doing well

946
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 4: or anything like. There's no obligation. Just live your life,

947
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 4: do the best that you can, and stay connected to

948
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 4: me as much as you can, and like we're gonna

949
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 4: be good. It's gotten morphed over the centuries, or maybe

950
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 4: it did right away. I don't know, but into this like, yeah,

951
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 4: you got to be perfect, you gotta perform, And I

952
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 4: definitely felt that. I felt living in that space like

953
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 4: I have to be I can't let people know that

954
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 4: I'm struggling, because how could I ever lead them to

955
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,879
Speaker 4: a God that would allow them to struggle. If they're

956
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 4: all God's allowing me to struggle, They're not going to

957
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 4: look at my life and be like I want to

958
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 4: I want what you've got. They're going to be like,

959
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 4: your life is falling apart.

960
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 2: Whatever you're doing is not working right, A lot of pressure.

961
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, like so it's my response.

962
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 2: God's reputation is my responsibility.

963
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: Oh can you and you're already under You're already under

964
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: so much pressure because you're a young person on a

965
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: TV show.

966
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 4: It's so absurd, like talk about a power trip. The

967
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 4: responsibility of the god of the universe is like his reputation.

968
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 4: That reputation is my resist twenty one year old girl,

969
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 4: Did I feel.

970
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,359
Speaker 1: Like One Tree Hill was like a way for you

971
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: to minister?

972
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 4: Did it feel like for sure that I was everywhere

973
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 4: I went. I thought that's what I've been sent for

974
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 4: lot to evangelize. And I used to do an auditions too,

975
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 4: even sometimes I would audition and like I remember having

976
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 4: an audition where I had to I was supposed to

977
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 4: say Jesus Christ, you know, like as a curse word

978
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 4: in the in the script, and I wouldn't do it.

979
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 4: And I'm not. I don't want to say that in

980
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:20,919
Speaker 4: a judgmental way for anyone who has a conviction about

981
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 4: that and doesn't want to say that.

982
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 3: When I was young, Yeah, yeah, like I don't.

983
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 4: That's how you speak and how you carry yourself in

984
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 4: the world is not my business. But for me as

985
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 4: an actor who's telling a story, when I look at that,

986
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 4: I'm like, that is so crazy that I would be

987
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,879
Speaker 4: so obsessed with my need to evangelize that I missed

988
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 4: the whole point of being able to authentically raw in

989
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 4: a raw way, tell a real story. I don't sorry,

990
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 4: I don't mean to get us off track, but yeah,

991
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 4: I definitely felt when I got there, like, oh, yeah,

992
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 4: this is my job.

993
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 2: I mean, and was less actually trying to recruit anyone

994
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 2: at that point, or he kind of like closed off a.

995
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 4: Little bit, right, wasn't active recruiting. I mean, he kept

996
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 4: up the facade of the church by having Saturday morning

997
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 4: meetings because he came out of a Seventh day Adventism

998
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,399
Speaker 4: and so they meet on Saturdays. And so he was like, well,

999
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 4: we'll do Saturday morning church at the hotel at the

1000
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 4: time or then at the restaurant later. But the people

1001
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 4: who were invited to the church service were just friends

1002
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 4: of all of us, or people he would meet, or

1003
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,439
Speaker 4: you know, people he'd meet at rotary club or whatever,

1004
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 4: and they were all invited and he would speak and

1005
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 4: it was a very it seemed like just a very

1006
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 4: benign Sunday thing. But none of them were invited to

1007
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 4: be a part of the big House family, like the

1008
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 4: family of people that all spent time in this big

1009
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 4: house whether you lived there or lived near this that

1010
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 4: was the Covenant Group family, and you couldn't get in.

1011
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 4: So he wasn't recruiting people for the inner core group,

1012
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 4: but he certainly wanted to keep up appearances like, oh,

1013
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 4: we just I just run a church. Like it's just

1014
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 4: a church.

1015
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: You have to at least pretend to be spreading a message. Yeah,

1016
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:01,959
Speaker 1: others a Saturday morning church.

1017
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 2: Right while you are working. People started to become aware

1018
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 2: that you were a part of this group and a

1019
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 2: little bit suspicious. So how did you experience that?

1020
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 4: You know, in my mind at the time, it felt

1021
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 4: like I just thought I was more spiritually mature than

1022
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 4: other people, and they didn't understand. They weren't willing to

1023
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 4: be brave and go to the depths of relationship that

1024
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 4: I was willing to go to, and that my family,

1025
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 4: my you know, quote unquote family, spiritual family, was willing

1026
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 4: to go to. And so I just, yeah, I think

1027
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 4: I just dismissed it as like that's really sad, like

1028
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 4: they just don't know. And by the way, the more

1029
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 4: you misunderstand me and the more I suffer because of

1030
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 4: your misunderstanding, the greater a Christian. That must mean that

1031
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 4: I am right. Because I am receiving so much opposition,

1032
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 4: I must be doing the right thing right. I mean,

1033
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 4: it's a real cycle.

1034
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: Have y'all found yourself ever being like a little bit

1035
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: Massachus because you were taught to self sacrifice, Like sometimes

1036
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: I'll be waiting in a line and it'll be taking forever,

1037
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: and I like kind of want it to take long. No,

1038
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: I like want to suffer or something like I feel

1039
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 1: like I need to.

1040
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 2: I feel like that was taught to me, but I

1041
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: never internalized it. I hate like he hate suffering.

1042
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes I.

1043
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 2: Just say emotionally maybe emotionally Yeah, sometimes.

1044
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: I just be like I gotta do it anyway.

1045
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't. I don't know that. I know. I

1046
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 4: think I'm more with you that I kind of rebelled,

1047
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 4: and just once I got out, I was like, no, no,

1048
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 4: no more. I don't I walk on my boundaries anymore.

1049
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 4: But I went through a journey with suffering too, because

1050
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 4: I think it's just a natural human condition and we

1051
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 4: try that I mean that was the for me. One

1052
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 4: of the huge realizations getting out of this was I

1053
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 4: don't there's no entitlement card as a human being to

1054
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 4: be like, I don't. I don't get to suffer, like

1055
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:58,240
Speaker 4: that's just part of humanity. I don't necessarily deserve rescue

1056
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 4: from things that I'm suffering for, Like, so what can

1057
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 4: I use how can I harvest? How can I turn

1058
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,800
Speaker 4: this into something good? How can I see the redemption

1059
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 4: arc on the other side of this, There's got to

1060
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 4: be a reason for it, Like I can't just be

1061
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:13,720
Speaker 4: if there's no reason for it, then you get into justice,

1062
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 4: and that's a whole other conversation. But there's totally a lot.

1063
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 4: There's a lot there. But what is so heartbreaking about

1064
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:27,839
Speaker 4: someone messing with your concept of suffering is making you

1065
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 4: think you deserve to suffer in some way or to

1066
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,760
Speaker 4: or making it an ego trip that if I'm suffering,

1067
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 4: I'm better than you, right, and then it's a sense

1068
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 4: of superiority totally.

1069
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: I mean totally ingranded into my brain, like turn the

1070
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 1: other cheek never yelled back.

1071
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 4: I know you're forced to.

1072
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: Forgive mediately crazy things.

1073
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,359
Speaker 4: We all want to feel good, Like this is why

1074
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,839
Speaker 4: it's schoolyard bullies, Like I want to feel better than

1075
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 4: the other person because it's the lowest hanging fruit. How

1076
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 4: do I make myself feel better about myself put somebody

1077
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 4: else down. So if I'm capable of experiencing suffering and

1078
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 4: still being pious and still maintaining my holiness and whatever,

1079
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 4: and you can't, then I'm better than you, right, And

1080
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 4: so that's the my dopamine hit.

1081
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 2: So I just shin up and experience my suffering. Yeah,

1082
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,280
Speaker 2: I mean I know non religious people who also totally

1083
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 2: yeah like that. I just want to know where you

1084
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 2: were at with your parents.

1085
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, they they were. They were really concerned. And my

1086
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 4: mom and I read about this in the book that

1087
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 4: she was really smart and new to just stay steady,

1088
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 4: and she wanted a relationship with me, and so she

1089
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 4: was willing to just not talk too much about it

1090
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 4: and not push too many buttons. When she started to

1091
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 4: sense that I was getting my feathers ruffled about something

1092
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 4: she might be saying or questioning, or if I felt

1093
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 4: fear that, like are you going to make me doubt?

1094
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 4: Because I can't afford a doubt, she would just stop

1095
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,839
Speaker 4: and move move on new topic, whatever, oh.

1096
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, he would you with the term investigative questions or

1097
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: something legal question It's like there's questions that are just

1098
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: so you can't even think them.

1099
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's that's a study even. I mean, it's

1100
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 4: true that that's crazy, but that's also in not so

1101
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 4: many words, in many religions. That's why people get so dogmatic,

1102
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 4: because you're like, I can't afford I built my entire

1103
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 4: identity on this. If you make me question something, then

1104
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 4: everything I have falls apart. So I'd rather not just

1105
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 4: ignorance is blissed. I'd rather just not question it. I'm

1106
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 4: too afraid to question. And my dad was much more

1107
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 4: vocal about it, and I think he just thought he could.

1108
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 4: He was relying on the brain that he knew I had.

1109
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 4: He was like, you are a smart person, listen to me.

1110
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 4: Let's do our critical thinking thing that we do. And

1111
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 4: I just wasn't having it. I would not. I was

1112
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 4: too far gone, and so I cut him out and

1113
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,240
Speaker 4: I didn't have a relationship with my dad for six years.

1114
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 2: I mean, And it's just such a classic example of

1115
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 2: what we see over and over again, which is that like,

1116
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 2: if someone is directly attacking the beliefs and the like

1117
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 2: source of identity and community like that will that very

1118
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 2: often leads to them getting cut out and shut out completely,

1119
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 2: versus someone who wants who maintains the relationship, will have

1120
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 2: an easier time eventually maybe getting through.

1121
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 4: Be curious or critical, Yes, exactly, because you can't. Again,

1122
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:24,720
Speaker 4: you can't have doubts.

1123
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: You can't.

1124
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 4: It's too the cost is too high to have doubts.

1125
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,879
Speaker 4: So if you've got somebody in your life who's aggressively

1126
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 4: making sense and aggressively causing you to question the situation

1127
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,879
Speaker 4: that you're in, you really only have two choices. You

1128
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 4: approach that person with a total willingness to have everything

1129
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,839
Speaker 4: about your identity collapse and find new information and move

1130
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 4: on and start a new version of your life, or

1131
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 4: you cut the person out because you can't handle all

1132
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:53,320
Speaker 4: of their information.

1133
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 2: Which is an extremely painful thing, like that collapse that

1134
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 2: you're talking about. I mean people describe it as.

1135
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 1: A death like can you go do ye?

1136
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 2: Like and community death and complete.

1137
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: Meaning death yes.

1138
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 2: Meaning like so I feel like especially right now where

1139
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 2: so many we're also polarized, and everyone's like, how could

1140
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 2: they think that? It's like, it is so painful to

1141
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 2: alter your beliefs when you have invested so much of

1142
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 2: your life, especially when that would mean that someone was

1143
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 2: manipulating you and that that person's a bad person. Like

1144
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 2: it's it's just too painful.

1145
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1146
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 1: And remember the scientist we had on who talked about

1147
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 1: the brain scans of how painful it literally is to

1148
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,720
Speaker 1: change a belief, Like it's physically painful.

1149
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 4: Really. Yeah, yeah that that Yeah, that tracks so bell,

1150
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 4: I just want to touch on that really quickly if

1151
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 4: you don't.

1152
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 1: I had this dream and it all comes back to family,

1153
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: Like you had this beautiful grandmother who was an actress,

1154
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: and she was like stage and new that was a

1155
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: little musical theater, musical theater. Yeah, and you kind of

1156
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 1: got this opportunity to perhaps play balance.

1157
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I got the part.

1158
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I thought you were still in like

1159
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 1: production meetings you got.

1160
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:11,439
Speaker 2: No, I got the part.

1161
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 4: And actually we just realized that as I was reading

1162
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 4: the audio book. I was like, somewhere in the ghosts

1163
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,240
Speaker 4: of drafts, as we moved some paragraphs around and stuff,

1164
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 4: the actual sentence of me saying I got the part disappeared.

1165
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 2: Okay, I received that, you got Okay, I did not.

1166
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 4: I did not know, so we fixed it for the

1167
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:29,919
Speaker 4: next print man. But yeah, oh my god.

1168
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: I mean but even so, like you, I knew you

1169
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: said no to producers wanting more from me, and yeah.

1170
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:39,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I had. I had auditioned for Bell several

1171
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,799
Speaker 4: times in my life, and I just as I said it,

1172
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 4: you know, it always went to somebody. They were at

1173
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 4: the point in the show where they were just offering

1174
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 4: the part to pop stars and people who really really

1175
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:54,760
Speaker 4: talented people but more well known. And the perfect symbiosis

1176
00:56:54,760 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 4: of me having musical theater gifts and then also being

1177
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 4: on a show that was really popular was like a

1178
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:05,879
Speaker 4: really it was. It was like a perfect I said

1179
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 4: perfect storm, but it wasn't a storm. It was I

1180
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 4: don't know if something else.

1181
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 2: What's perfect a croissant person. So yeah, I got the.

1182
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 4: Part and then and I had been wanting that my

1183
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 4: whole life. It was like the one role that I

1184
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 4: was desperate to do, and Less was very effective in

1185
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 4: convincing me that I was on a very dangerous path

1186
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 4: to making my career my God, that God had given

1187
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 4: me this opportunity to become a part of a family

1188
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 4: in a way that I had never experienced before because

1189
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 4: I was an only child, and it's like joy. You

1190
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 4: can't outgive God, right, God's offering this to you. You

1191
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 4: know you could, you could choose either one. But you're young.

1192
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 4: Your career is so far ahead of you, Like you

1193
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 4: should just experience what it's like to be a part

1194
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 4: of a real family, because that's the fun foundation that

1195
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 4: you're going to need when your career really does blow up.

1196
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, he's probably just like Broadway doesn't pay a

1197
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: lot of money.

1198
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 4: I want you on TV eight percent. And if I'd

1199
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 4: gone to New York, I mean further yeah, I'd be

1200
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 4: further away. New York is talk about me like that's

1201
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 4: the origins of my being an independent, tough girl, like

1202
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 4: Jersey girl. I was always totally fine on my own.

1203
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 4: I learned that as a kid to really enjoy my

1204
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 4: own company. I had no problem riding the subway at

1205
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 4: ten o'clock at night.

1206
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: I was I was.

1207
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 4: I was like a cool New York kid, you know,

1208
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 4: a cool girl, And I was really I was excited

1209
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 4: about the possibility of going back to New York. And

1210
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 4: he knew if I did that, then I'd move on

1211
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 4: to do other things.

1212
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 2: You know.

1213
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 4: The girl that actually took that part in my place,

1214
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 4: who's a brilliant actress, moved on and opened Mary Poppins

1215
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 4: on Broadway and many other things. So you know, there

1216
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 4: was a career trajectory that would have been probably laid

1217
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 4: out for me, whether it was you know, Poppins or

1218
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 4: something else, because Ashley Brown's amazing, But that I think.

1219
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 2: It was easy to see for Less that's where I

1220
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 2: would have gone.

1221
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 4: It would have been. Really it was one thing to

1222
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 4: get me to want to spend time in Idaho and

1223
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 4: miss Idaho and the Pacific Northwest. While I was on

1224
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 4: One Tree Hill and I was it was easy to

1225
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 4: be isolated. It's not easy to be isolated in New

1226
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 4: York City. And I think he knew if I got

1227
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 4: to New York it's all over.

1228
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 2: To control you the same extent. So I was so mad.

1229
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 2: We were both so madly.

1230
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 1: That's a hard pill those well, yeah, that's yeah, that's

1231
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 1: what I really.

1232
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 2: Want you to do it Now someone needs to.

1233
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 4: Oh my god, can you imagine? Like yes, I can get.

1234
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 2: I'm imagining it right now. It's still looking young on stage.

1235
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 4: I think Ergo just played a nineteen year old and

1236
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 4: she's like forty two.

1237
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: So maybe maybe it'll Yeah, truly, how.

1238
00:59:55,360 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 2: Did you find out how much money have been taking?

1239
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 4: Shit? I went to the bank, Like, I just went

1240
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 4: to the bank. I was separated. I was like, we

1241
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 4: I need to separate the money because I was feeling

1242
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 4: uncomfortable with how much access my ex had and his

1243
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 4: family through him had because he was very much upon

1244
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 4: in all of this. I mean, poor guy was like

1245
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:28,760
Speaker 4: he was raised in it. Like what is oh? Yeah,

1246
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 4: do you know what I mean?

1247
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 1: I was just touched on those really quickly. It almost

1248
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 1: was like a twin flame thing almost, where like people

1249
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 1: in the group started getting married. So you yeah, you

1250
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,160
Speaker 1: kind of married into the Yeah. Yeah, so I married

1251
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 1: into the group. It was the leader's son. And he

1252
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 1: has many wonderful qualities. I say many nice things about him.

1253
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 4: He had some really bad behavior when we were young.

1254
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 4: I don't know how he behaves now, but I can

1255
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 4: tell you he was raised in that. And I really

1256
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 4: don't know. I mean, you guys know, particularly you were

1257
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:05,000
Speaker 4: raised and you were also raised as Mormon, Okay, so

1258
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 4: before the yeah, before the shift for you. So I

1259
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 4: don't know when and how that shift happens for people.

1260
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 4: Like there's a moment for some people when you just

1261
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 4: wake up and realize what's going on. And sometimes it's

1262
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 4: a real slow burn. Sometimes it's more overnight, and some

1263
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 4: people never get out of it. I don't know how

1264
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 4: or why, but he was raised in it, and he

1265
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 4: was a pawn, and so they had access to my

1266
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 4: money through him, and I just didn't like how much

1267
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 4: of it was. I just felt like, I'm uncomfortable with this.

1268
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 4: I don't like this. So I went to the bank

1269
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 4: and I said, let's I'm going to take control over

1270
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 4: my money again. I left a bit. I'm going to

1271
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 4: leave a big chunk for him, so it's not I'm

1272
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 4: not trying to like sweep the accounts, but there's enough

1273
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 4: for him for a year. He's going to go get

1274
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 4: a job. Like I gave him a what I thought

1275
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 4: was cushion. And when I walked into the bank, a

1276
01:01:57,360 --> 01:01:59,439
Speaker 4: friend of mine was a teller of a group member

1277
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 4: who had also been started to distance herself from the group,

1278
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 4: and she opened up my accounts and showed me the balance,

1279
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 4: and I was like, what what am I looking at?

1280
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 4: This is? Is there a different account that I should

1281
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,120
Speaker 4: be like? What other accounts are under my name? This

1282
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 4: isn't the right one? Because I had probably made about

1283
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 4: two million dollars over I mean I had made more

1284
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 4: over the course of the nine years on the show.

1285
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 4: But I knew that I had spent some on the restaurant.

1286
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 4: I knew that there had been withdraws for the hotel

1287
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 4: and American Express bills and things like that, and commission

1288
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 4: from Your Life and commission and all those things. So

1289
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:42,040
Speaker 4: there was a but I knew there should have been

1290
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 4: about two million in the bank and there wasn't. It

1291
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 4: was it was about two hundred thousand, and I already

1292
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 4: owed lawyers. My house was underwater, the irs, there were

1293
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 4: issues with there were outstanding credit card bills. There was

1294
01:02:55,680 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 4: another house that had been purchased that I don't remembering

1295
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 4: anything on that deed, but it's maybe my ex did

1296
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 4: or maybe I did and I was just in a

1297
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 4: haze and don't remember. But that was the house for

1298
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 4: the chef of the restaurant. We bought him a house.

1299
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, super horrible, And yeah, it was. It

1300
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 4: was really scary to just be to know that that

1301
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 4: meant that I was pretty much broke, Like I had

1302
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 4: enough to that I could stretch it out and kind

1303
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 4: of snowball things and be like not Rob Peter to

1304
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 4: pay Paul, but like, you know, push off this payment

1305
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 4: so that I could pay this one, and then push

1306
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 4: off that one so that I could pay that one.

1307
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 4: And so I knew I could do some shuffling. But

1308
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 4: I wasn't. I mean I was. I was broke, Like

1309
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 4: I had to just start from scratch one hundred percent

1310
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 4: because all that money was committed for rent and lawyers

1311
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 4: and all these other things.

1312
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 2: It's wild after that long on such a big show.

1313
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was surprised that they'd left two hundred grand,

1314
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 1: to be honest, I thought I thought it would be twenty.

1315
01:03:57,680 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 2: Bucks I was.

1316
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 4: I mean maybe, yeah, I don't know, but I think

1317
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 4: just the way it that that is, that was like

1318
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 4: enough to sort of just keep the accounts, keep everything moving,

1319
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 4: because you also don't forget like they they knew that

1320
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 4: they were going to need more money because it was

1321
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 4: the Bank of Joy, so they had to leave something

1322
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 4: in there that was substantial enough that they could keep

1323
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 4: dipping into, even on a smaller scale.

1324
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: Right, And the scene of you finding this out with

1325
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 1: the woman who you used to be in the group

1326
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 1: with is just so beautiful.

1327
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 4: I'm gonna cry. Everybody needs to read this book. We

1328
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:33,440
Speaker 4: haven't even.

1329
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 1: Touched on like a fourth of what we wanted to,

1330
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:38,480
Speaker 1: but yeah, that scene is.

1331
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:41,440
Speaker 4: Gorgeous, Thank you so much. Yeah that was rough. And

1332
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 4: then when we got into it with the forensic accountant too,

1333
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 4: started to dive in and find like you found all

1334
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 4: of these checks with my bank account number on the

1335
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 4: bottom and the restaurant name on the top, like somebody

1336
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 4: had just printed up fake checks with the restaurant name

1337
01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 4: and my bank account, so like you don't get the tax.

1338
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 4: You know, it was just like a full pull out

1339
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 4: of my account for like seventy thousand dollars, like there

1340
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 4: were so there was so much crazy shit that went

1341
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 4: down with the money. And at the end of the

1342
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 4: day it was a separate trial, and I was like,

1343
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 4: I'm exhausted. I've been doing this for three years. I

1344
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 4: just want my kid, I just want to go start

1345
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 4: my life over. And so I just had to let

1346
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 4: let all of that go. But what's amazing is how

1347
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 4: much I learned from that and how much I like,

1348
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 4: it was a devastating, devastating experience, but I rebuilt and

1349
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 4: I was continually cared for and to see that a

1350
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:41,919
Speaker 4: check showed up in the mail residual checks always turned

1351
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 4: up at the eleventh hour. There was always something like

1352
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 4: I was taken care of, and I didn't do it.

1353
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 4: It wasn't me like hustling and doing like I got

1354
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 4: jobs sparingly. But it was kind of miraculous. So it

1355
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 4: really solidified a new It was it was a really

1356
01:05:56,800 --> 01:06:00,440
Speaker 4: solidifying thing in the new version of my faith to

1357
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:04,920
Speaker 4: see in real time how cosmically I was like taken

1358
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 4: care of in this totally hopeless situation. It's pretty cool.

1359
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 2: Was the money the thing that sent you over the edge, Like,

1360
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 2: what was the thing that made you really decide you

1361
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 2: were done?

1362
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 4: I think it was. I think by the point, I

1363
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:23,600
Speaker 4: can't remember the chronology. I did my best to put

1364
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 4: the chronology in correct order, but there may have just

1365
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:30,680
Speaker 4: been some things for narrative sense that we moved around.

1366
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:34,840
Speaker 4: But I can't remember if I was if I had

1367
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 4: already asked for a divorce and then went to the bank,

1368
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 4: or if I went to the bank first and asked

1369
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:42,160
Speaker 4: for a divorce. I don't know. But the money was it,

1370
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:44,919
Speaker 4: I mean, yes, it was. That was a big because

1371
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 4: you're like, who oh, that's this is a thief. Yes,

1372
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 4: something's really, really, really wrong and this is not okay.

1373
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 4: I don't, I don't what happened. And I was definitely

1374
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 4: in a major haze about that.

1375
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 2: But yeah, and everyone should read the book because you

1376
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 2: do lay out along the way all of the thing

1377
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 2: that did make you and other people in the group

1378
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 2: start to question what's happening.

1379
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:09,960
Speaker 1: And he would accuse people who questioned it being bipolar.

1380
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 4: I mean, there's every woman.

1381
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:13,920
Speaker 1: Every woman with bipolar.

1382
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:16,080
Speaker 4: I've heard so many, by the way, like I put

1383
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 4: two in the book, but it was five at least,

1384
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:21,400
Speaker 4: like everything like every woman. I was like, this is

1385
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 4: just going to be too much. I can't just keep

1386
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 4: writing this over and over again. Wow, So I made

1387
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 4: the point, but in actuality, yes, I heard this multiple

1388
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 4: times throughout my time in the group. So and so

1389
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 4: is bipolar. Pray for her and that.

1390
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 2: Less was bipolar.

1391
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1392
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 4: And then there's just this beautiful arc in the end

1393
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:40,640
Speaker 4: that we won't give away.

1394
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 1: But your dad, dad, not your last dad, my natural

1395
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 1: dad dad is back in your life and saves the

1396
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 1: day so hard, And I was just like, perfect story.

1397
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:56,440
Speaker 1: I love it, bumps, thank you, I really do it

1398
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 1: is it is really beautiful.

1399
01:07:57,960 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 2: He really like the way your parents really were caring about,

1400
01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:05,000
Speaker 2: you know, when you were isolating yourself from them. Is

1401
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:09,680
Speaker 2: really wonderful to read about. And I guess since we

1402
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:12,919
Speaker 2: are almost out of time here, I you know, if

1403
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 2: what would you say to somebody who might be in

1404
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:19,559
Speaker 2: a Bible study group or a self help group or

1405
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:22,519
Speaker 2: whatever it may be, and having just like little things

1406
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:25,840
Speaker 2: that they're noticing, but like, what would you tell them

1407
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 2: to look out for or think about?

1408
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:31,760
Speaker 4: That's a good question. There are a lot, I mean,

1409
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 4: there's a lot of red flags to look out for.

1410
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:37,240
Speaker 4: And anybody who is saying we've got something that nobody

1411
01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:42,479
Speaker 4: else has, we're special and you should look down on

1412
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 4: or feel bad for people who don't have what we've got.

1413
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:49,719
Speaker 4: If that is implied, whether it's just said out right

1414
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 4: or whether it's just implied, that's a real red flag.

1415
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 4: That's something you should really pay attention to. And that

1416
01:08:56,320 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 4: I don't think that means that truth doesn't exist. I

1417
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:01,880
Speaker 4: think it means you you need to pay attention to

1418
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:05,479
Speaker 4: what the fruit of the truth that you're being told

1419
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:09,600
Speaker 4: is going to produce in your life. So the isolation

1420
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:13,479
Speaker 4: is another really big factor. Getting if you start feeling

1421
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:16,760
Speaker 4: like you suddenly don't trust a lot of people in

1422
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:21,160
Speaker 4: your life. That also is a red flag that you're

1423
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:28,040
Speaker 4: involved in something that is isolating you, because again, truth

1424
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:29,679
Speaker 4: rises to the top like cream.

1425
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:30,759
Speaker 2: Truth is truth.

1426
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:34,120
Speaker 4: You don't need to be afraid. There's nothing for you

1427
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 4: to be afraid of in listening to other people's perspectives,

1428
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:40,720
Speaker 4: hearing what somebody else thinks about what's going on in

1429
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:44,120
Speaker 4: your life, hearing what somebody else thinks about what you believe,

1430
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 4: hearing how someone else believes differently than what you believe.

1431
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:50,559
Speaker 1: And that's an important point to make in today's society

1432
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:52,679
Speaker 1: because we're taught like if somebody doesn't agree with you,

1433
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 1: do not talk to them, even your family, like get

1434
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:56,679
Speaker 1: away from them. That you don't need to hear those shit.

1435
01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:59,679
Speaker 1: And it's like for sure that we call the boundaries. Yeah,

1436
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,559
Speaker 1: and for sure that might be true for some people,

1437
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,040
Speaker 1: but most people, like you got to keep in conversation

1438
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:07,559
Speaker 1: with them to like balance it out a little.

1439
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:11,000
Speaker 2: If someone is telling you to shut out a perspective

1440
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:15,120
Speaker 2: completely from your psyche and not think about what might

1441
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:17,800
Speaker 2: be in that perspective or what you're someone you love

1442
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:20,680
Speaker 2: might have to say to you, Yeah, that is very

1443
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 2: dangerous territory because you can hear the perspective, and you

1444
01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:26,519
Speaker 2: can always decide you're not going to absolutely incorporate it

1445
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:27,120
Speaker 2: into your life.

1446
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:30,120
Speaker 4: Absolutely, But if you doubt yourself so much, you doubt

1447
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 4: your mind and your ability to critically think and to assess,

1448
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 4: you doubt your gut so much that you can't even

1449
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:40,960
Speaker 4: engage in a conversation with someone else about a totally

1450
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:46,759
Speaker 4: different viewpoint without getting implacably angry. Yeah, there's something wrong. Yeah,

1451
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:50,800
Speaker 4: you are involved in a mindset that has told you

1452
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:54,240
Speaker 4: to be afraid. That's the biggest red flag for me,

1453
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:59,440
Speaker 4: is like, if you are super super angry by listening

1454
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:01,920
Speaker 4: to someone else's point of view that conflicts with yours,

1455
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 4: be careful, please be careful.

1456
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:05,679
Speaker 2: Amen.

1457
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:07,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you so much.

1458
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:10,280
Speaker 2: Tell us where we can find your book.

1459
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:15,320
Speaker 4: Dinner for Vampires is available anywhere books are sold as

1460
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:18,040
Speaker 4: far as I know, Parage. You can get it at

1461
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:23,320
Speaker 4: Hudson News, yeah, big barn asses. Pick it up at

1462
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 4: all of your all of your local bookstores as well

1463
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:31,000
Speaker 4: small bookstores and Amazon of course. And on audiobook. I

1464
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:35,320
Speaker 4: narrate the audiobook, which is really fun and difficult at times,

1465
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:39,160
Speaker 4: but I enjoyed the experience, and uh, I hope you

1466
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:40,440
Speaker 4: like it Dinner for Vampires.

1467
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

1468
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:44,599
Speaker 4: Thank you guys, thank you for asking such interesting questions too.

1469
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 4: It's really awesome.

1470
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:50,040
Speaker 2: Thanks, I mean your fascinating story. Yeah, thank you, and

1471
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:52,920
Speaker 2: there we have it. Big thanks to Joy for joining

1472
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:56,679
Speaker 2: us in person. What are your big takeaways, Megan, Because

1473
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 2: we've taught we talked about a couple of things.

1474
01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:00,679
Speaker 1: One of the things I really want to highlight is

1475
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:04,080
Speaker 1: her mother and how her mother maintained this relationship with

1476
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:09,760
Speaker 1: her throughout her entire journey into this cult. Was that

1477
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:13,160
Speaker 1: her mom didn't really attack her, She didn't say you're

1478
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:17,000
Speaker 1: an idiot. She just kept asking questions and keeping an

1479
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 1: open mind, and through that Joy was able to keep

1480
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:24,120
Speaker 1: a relationship with her and ultimately get out. So just

1481
01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:27,320
Speaker 1: one of the things we see a lot but really clear.

1482
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:28,320
Speaker 4: In this episode.

1483
01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:31,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I totally understand her dad wanting to

1484
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:34,560
Speaker 2: take down the cult as well. Like both reactions completely

1485
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 2: make sense. However, no one can judge how anyone responds

1486
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:41,160
Speaker 2: to their loved one being in a cult, but it

1487
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:45,000
Speaker 2: can be so helpful when they are finally ready to leave, because,

1488
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 2: as we know, you cannot force someone to be ready.

1489
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:50,519
Speaker 2: They have to be ready and not attacking that belief

1490
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:53,080
Speaker 2: system along the way can make you a safe person

1491
01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 2: to ask.

1492
01:12:53,479 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 1: Two questions, asking questions, letting them hear it out loud,

1493
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:01,639
Speaker 1: and asking another question and not being attacky about it.

1494
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:04,519
Speaker 1: Just curious. Her dad has an amazing arc in this book.

1495
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:07,040
Speaker 1: We're not giving it away, but yeah, it's a Yin

1496
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:08,520
Speaker 1: and yang situation.

1497
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:08,400
Speaker 4: You know.

1498
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 1: And I'm sure he asked questions too and didn't freak

1499
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:14,680
Speaker 1: out sometimes on her but her mom. It was a

1500
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:17,599
Speaker 1: real takeaway for me of just that point that always

1501
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:19,519
Speaker 1: hits home of what works.

1502
01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:22,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And just to add on one final thing,

1503
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:26,639
Speaker 2: I thought, I still think about what Derek Black talked

1504
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:30,719
Speaker 2: about in their episode, and for those who haven't listened,

1505
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:34,439
Speaker 2: that was a former white nationalist, David Duke's like poster

1506
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:37,040
Speaker 2: child when they were growing up, and then you know,

1507
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:39,920
Speaker 2: they grew up and denounced that ideology and denounced racism.

1508
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:43,520
Speaker 2: They talked about this that yin yang precisely like there

1509
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 2: were the people who were coming after them and attacking them,

1510
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 2: and it was like valuable in a way, but it

1511
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:52,760
Speaker 2: wasn't enough. It wasn't the thing that actually changed their mind.

1512
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 2: It was the people who did ask questions that ultimately

1513
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:58,640
Speaker 2: like helped them to. So what does it see the

1514
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:01,479
Speaker 2: error and their ways?

1515
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:04,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, whatever the case may be, She's just really touched

1516
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:06,400
Speaker 1: on it in this book in a beautiful way. So

1517
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:09,920
Speaker 1: totally For anybody who feels like their family right now

1518
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:13,160
Speaker 1: might be lost in conspiracy theories or super high control

1519
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:17,839
Speaker 1: religions or any sort of thinking that is really intense,

1520
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:19,880
Speaker 1: maybe just ask some questions about it.

1521
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:22,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you talk to them, Just talk to them.

1522
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:25,639
Speaker 1: All right, Okay, thank you so much for joining us.

1523
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:28,559
Speaker 1: As always, we can't wait to see you again here

1524
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:32,439
Speaker 1: next week, and as always, remember to follow your gut,

1525
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:37,439
Speaker 1: watch out for red flags, and never ever trust me.

1526
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:45,280
Speaker 2: Bye bye. Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp,

1527
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 2: and Steve Delemator.

1528
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:48,400
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1529
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:50,760
Speaker 2: And her theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1530
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:53,840
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1531
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult pod, or on TikTok at

1532
01:14:57,439 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1533
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:02,640
Speaker 2: I'm Ula on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1534
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Abraham

1535
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:07,120
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1536
01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:09,599
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word