Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
Speaker 1: the whitetail woods, presented by first Light, creating proven versatile
Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light
Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on
Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by doctor Bronson Strickland, Professor of
Speaker 2: Wildlife Management at Mississippi State University, to discuss the latest
Speaker 2: in white tail research and its implications for deer hunters.
Speaker 2: All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt pod cast,
Speaker 2: brought to you by First Light and their brand new
Speaker 2: line of white tail gear, which I've told you all about.
Speaker 2: You can learn more about it over at first light
Speaker 2: dot com and our CAMO for Conservation initiative, which means
Speaker 2: that every purchase you make of any of first Light's
Speaker 2: gear in the Specter Camel pattern, which is the white
Speaker 2: tail pattern, you buy something in that pattern, and a
Speaker 2: portion of that sale is donated to the National Deer
Speaker 2: Association to help promote the conservation of our favorite big
Speaker 2: game printer. So that's pretty cool. And in other news,
Speaker 2: stay two and there is some exciting stuff coming up
Speaker 2: next week related to white tails in the world of
Speaker 2: First Light, in the world of meat Eater. Last year,
Speaker 2: we had a big old celebration of white tail deer
Speaker 2: for a week called white Tail Week. I don't know
Speaker 2: if that's a creative name or not, but Whitetail Week
Speaker 2: was pretty awesome last year, and we're bringing it back.
Speaker 2: It's next week, so stay tuned for even more white
Speaker 2: tailed business than usual, including and I'm just gonna say it.
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is something we're not supposed
Speaker 2: to tease it or not, but my first two films
Speaker 2: from last year are coming out next week, including the
Speaker 2: film that is going to be the Return to the
Speaker 2: Back forty. So I got to go back to the
Speaker 2: Back forty and spend some time with two of the
Speaker 2: new hunters that I've been mentoring out there over previous seasons,
Speaker 2: help them get their first year on the Back forty.
Speaker 2: So we go back to the Back forty, we do
Speaker 2: some hunting, we showcase everything that's happened on the property
Speaker 2: in the year since that, barring some kind of unforeseen circumstance,
Speaker 2: should be coming out next week. And the Wide nine film,
Speaker 2: the film that recaps my four year journey kind of
Speaker 2: following studying and then hunting this buck we call the
Speaker 2: Wide nine here in Michigan. That's coming out next week,
Speaker 2: so make sure you are subscribed to the Meat Either
Speaker 2: YouTube channel as well. Very exciting things to come. But
Speaker 2: that is all neither here nor there. Today we are
Speaker 2: talking dear research, dear studies, the science of what deer
Speaker 2: do and why they do it. And our guest today
Speaker 2: is one of the absolute best people to discuss this
Speaker 2: kind of thing with. It's doctor Bronson Strickland. He is
Speaker 2: a professor of wildlife management at Mississippi State University. They've
Speaker 2: got this very cool program there called Deer Lab in
Speaker 2: which they are producing all sorts of different fascinating research,
Speaker 2: publishing studies on deer behavior, dear habitat, all that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff, and then they also produce a lot of
Speaker 2: content to help educate folks on this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: So Bronson is the co host of their Dear University
Speaker 2: podcast and also active with the Deer Lab TV YouTube
Speaker 2: channel that they have tremendous resources to go into a
Speaker 2: lot of the stuff we discussed today, but in more detail.
Speaker 2: So Bronson joined me today to get us caught up
Speaker 2: on the latest and greatest in deer research. What the
Speaker 2: data is telling us about white tail deer and what
Speaker 2: they're doing. There's a whole lot of folks that come
Speaker 2: on this podcast and say, dear, do this, deer do that,
Speaker 2: and that's anecdotal or that's because they've seen it a
Speaker 2: lot over the years or heard it told to them
Speaker 2: by someone, and it's a theory that they've picked up
Speaker 2: and believe, which is great. I enjoy a good theory myself,
Speaker 2: but it's great to see what the data actually says.
Speaker 2: And Bronson and his team have access to a whole
Speaker 2: hell of a lot of data which shines a light
Speaker 2: on some of the many questions that we white tailed
Speaker 2: deer hunters have about why deer would do what they do,
Speaker 2: when do they do it, how do they do it,
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. So that's what we cover
Speaker 2: with Bronson. We get caught up on how things have
Speaker 2: changed in the three to five years since we've had
Speaker 2: this kind of conversation with him last and we talk
Speaker 2: about some stuff around annual patterns, what the data, what
Speaker 2: the study is show about how deer may or may
Speaker 2: not do the same thing year after year. We dive
Speaker 2: really deep into new research around deer betting, where deer bed,
Speaker 2: why they bed, specifically buck betted, buck betting, how bucks
Speaker 2: are betting, how often they bed, where they bed, how
Speaker 2: many betting areas or sites do they have, all that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff very interesting. We get into some things
Speaker 2: around the rut, specifically patterning deer during the rut, and
Speaker 2: then maybe most interesting for a lot of people, I
Speaker 2: think Bronson shares a little bit of what will soon
Speaker 2: be coming out around some very interesting new studies about
Speaker 2: the impact of the moon on deer movement. This is
Speaker 2: a theory. There's there's several theories around how the moon
Speaker 2: might impact deer movement. Many well known hunters live and
Speaker 2: die by these theories, and Bronson went and did a
Speaker 2: deep dive specifically into these theories that hardcore deer hunters
Speaker 2: have and then looking at the actual kinds of questions
Speaker 2: that we have around that. So will the move get
Speaker 2: a big buck on his feet ten minutes earlier? Maybe
Speaker 2: maybe not. Bronson is gonna tell us here today. I'm
Speaker 2: excited for you to hear about it. I'm excited for
Speaker 2: the rest of his studies to come out later this fall,
Speaker 2: and it's gonna be good stuff. So without any further, Ado,
Speaker 2: I think we should just get to this very interesting
Speaker 2: conversation and very applicable conversation. I want to make sure
Speaker 2: that's very clear. This is this is applied science. This
Speaker 2: is learning about the research and then discussing exactly how
Speaker 2: this research, how this science can be applied on your
Speaker 2: next hunt for this coming season, as you put together
Speaker 2: your hunting plans and your strategies, how do you take
Speaker 2: this new information and arm it or arm yourself in
Speaker 2: a way that will make a more effective deer hunter.
Speaker 2: That's my goal today. I hope it's helpful, hope you
Speaker 2: enjoy it. Here we go, all right with me. Now
Speaker 2: back on the show for the first time in too
Speaker 2: long of a time is Bronson Strickland. Bronson, thank you
Speaker 2: so much for being here.
Speaker 3: Absolutely happy too.
Speaker 2: Man, Like we were just talking about before we start recording. Uh,
Speaker 2: somehow almost half a decade has passed since the last
Speaker 2: time we did this, which is insane to me because
Speaker 2: it feels it feels like it was almost just yesterday.
Speaker 2: So it's been too long, too long coming. And I've been,
Speaker 2: you know, following so much of your work over the years,
Speaker 2: you know, since we have talked in the past, you
Speaker 2: guys have launched the Deer University podcast and your YouTube
Speaker 2: channel and really have done an excellent job of making
Speaker 2: deer research in science accessible for the average hunter and
Speaker 2: whitetail fishionados. So I just want to start this off
Speaker 2: by saying thank you for doing that, and kudos to
Speaker 2: you guys, because you're you're really making it excess and
Speaker 2: understandable in a way that not a lot of other
Speaker 2: people are. So great work on that well, I just
Speaker 2: want to make sure.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. And it's a little bit self serving,
Speaker 3: I will admit, because we're really having a lot of
Speaker 3: fun doing that, and we we really have a conviction
Speaker 3: of taking all of this really sophisticated research and how
Speaker 3: can we apply it for management and for hunting. So
Speaker 3: it's been a blast.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, you guys are taking the applied science thing
Speaker 2: to a new level when you're actually hunters yourselves and
Speaker 2: truly taking this stuff into the field with you, I'm sure.
Speaker 2: So all that said, you know, the plan today is
Speaker 2: really to look at that very thing, like how do
Speaker 2: we apply dear research and the science around deer behavior,
Speaker 2: dear movement. How do we take all that from you know,
Speaker 2: from the lab from a PDF, document from a podcast,
Speaker 2: and apply it in the field for folks this hunting season.
Speaker 2: Because when this when this one drops, it will be,
Speaker 2: you know, right at the beginning for a lot of
Speaker 2: different people's deer hunting season. So so everyone's chomping at
Speaker 2: the bit to get in the woods, or maybe already
Speaker 2: have been for a week or two. And now I
Speaker 2: want to figure out how do we take our deer
Speaker 2: hunting strategy and not let it just revolve around old
Speaker 2: wives tales and you know, the trendy idea of the day,
Speaker 2: but instead have our hunting plans grounded in true data,
Speaker 2: research and insights. So that's a heavy burden that we're
Speaker 2: going to place on your shoulders here today, Bronson, But
Speaker 2: I will.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna give you my best, that's all I can promise.
Speaker 2: I trust that you will. So there's a lot of
Speaker 2: different directions we go with this. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: interesting stuff that your team's been working on. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of things I know, folks, other folks around the
Speaker 2: country have been working on that you guys are always
Speaker 2: staying up to date on. I want to start at
Speaker 2: the very top level. I want to I'm curious about
Speaker 2: what is most fascinating to you when it comes to
Speaker 2: the latest deer research, deer science, and kind of looking
Speaker 2: at the window of the last three to five years
Speaker 2: or so since we've done a big roundup like this
Speaker 2: personally on this podcast, what in the most few recent
Speaker 2: few years has been the most significant break from conventional
Speaker 2: wisdom that has been illuminated by recent deer research or science.
Speaker 2: Is there something that has really changed your perspective on
Speaker 2: things more so than anything else.
Speaker 3: Well, I guess there's a lot of things that have happened,
Speaker 3: and you know, a lot of it in the past
Speaker 3: five years has been centered around CWD and including movement
Speaker 3: data and such as that. But I would say relative
Speaker 3: to hunting, and not to pat ourselves on the back,
Speaker 3: what's soever. I think the most eye opening thing for
Speaker 3: me and the team here has probably been the betting
Speaker 3: and the betting affinity and my story Mark, and you know,
Speaker 3: for a lot of people as well, it's when you
Speaker 3: go back to when we were cutting our teeth hunting
Speaker 3: and getting our information from hunting magazines and so forth,
Speaker 3: there was a lot of information about you know, a
Speaker 3: buck's bedroom, per se, and that they had this one
Speaker 3: spot on the landscape, and that is where that older buck,
Speaker 3: that mature buck, that dominant buck, that was going to
Speaker 3: be his territory, that only he was going to be
Speaker 3: and what we saw and I have to put a
Speaker 3: qualifier here that's going to apply for probably a lot
Speaker 3: of the stuff we talk about. The results I talk
Speaker 3: about are based on a landscape of the Southeast, and
Speaker 3: so if you're in Michigan, if you're in Ohio or Iowa,
Speaker 3: you may see something completely different. But what we generally
Speaker 3: saw down here is that there are many, many more
Speaker 3: betting areas and betting sites than we previously thought.
Speaker 2: And so.
Speaker 3: If we're trying to focus our hunting on there's that
Speaker 3: one place, and hey, if you're in the Midwest and
Speaker 3: you're in a cover restricted landscape, that may work very
Speaker 3: very well. But if you're in more of the eastern
Speaker 3: US or outside of an agricultural region, we're just seeing
Speaker 3: that there's a lot more different betting areas and a
Speaker 3: lot more movement and use of those throughout the course
Speaker 3: of the season. So finding that one spot to intercept
Speaker 3: that buck is probably probably going to take a lot
Speaker 3: of stand sitting to catch him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I will say at least in some of
Speaker 2: the content you guys have put out where you've discussed
Speaker 2: some of this betting research that that you guys have
Speaker 2: been working on. You've shown some of the aerial views
Speaker 2: of the of the sample sites where you're doing this.
Speaker 2: A key thing is it is varied, right, There's there's
Speaker 2: a strong diversity in fields versus timber, small food plots,
Speaker 2: big egg fields, big chunks of timber, rivers, all that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. And and while that is different than
Speaker 2: some stretches of like the very most open parts of
Speaker 2: Kansas or Iowa, I also did not look at that
Speaker 2: as being terribly divergent than what I'm used to in
Speaker 2: the Midwest. So so I when I looked at what
Speaker 2: you were showing me there, I still found it applicable
Speaker 2: to a lot of places I hunt in Michigan or
Speaker 2: Ohio or anything like that. So I think you bring
Speaker 2: up a good point, but I would not discount it
Speaker 2: so much to say that it's not applicable because it
Speaker 2: didn't look at that different. That said, there there was
Speaker 2: a lot of really interesting stuff in the at least
Speaker 2: the things I've seen so far. We guys have broken
Speaker 2: down the unique aspects of how deer are actually using
Speaker 2: betting areas, and you mentioned something that I think is
Speaker 2: the key thing, betting sites versus betting areas. Can you
Speaker 2: elaborate a little bit on what that means, how you
Speaker 2: guys have worked done to try to differentiate that or
Speaker 2: measure that, and then maybe get into some of the
Speaker 2: detail of specifically, you know, how many different sites on
Speaker 2: average are we seeing a buck used during a day
Speaker 2: or during a period of time, how many different areas
Speaker 2: Because I think, again, from a hunting perspective, if I know, well,
Speaker 2: he's he's got one or two big zones or he
Speaker 2: has ten big zones, that's going to significantly change my
Speaker 2: hunting strategy.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, so, I guess a little background here. We
Speaker 3: were able to measure this. These are bucks that have
Speaker 3: GPS callers on them, and we're getting a low cation
Speaker 3: from them every fifteen minutes, so that really enables us
Speaker 3: to fine tune, you know, their movements and how they're
Speaker 3: navigating the landscape, how long they're bedded, where they're betted,
Speaker 3: et cetera. We differentiated this by what we're calling is
Speaker 3: a betting site is going to be the area where
Speaker 3: we get greater than four consecutive points, and we called
Speaker 3: that within a within a twenty yard area. Now you
Speaker 3: might say, why would a betting site be twenty yards,
Speaker 3: because there's error associated with the GPS callers, with the
Speaker 3: triangulation and so forth. So we felt confident that if
Speaker 3: we're getting four consecutive points within a twenty yard range,
Speaker 3: then that buck is probably betted there. And it might
Speaker 3: be six consecutive points for an hour and a half,
Speaker 3: et cetera, but we had to have at least four,
Speaker 3: and so we would call that a betting site, and
Speaker 3: so we would draw a little dot on the map.
Speaker 3: Whereas that betting site, now, a betting area is differentiating
Speaker 3: that the area needs to be two sites that are
Speaker 3: greater than a one hundred yards apart. So, in other words,
Speaker 3: if a buck came in and had a betting site
Speaker 3: and the very next day came back and had a
Speaker 3: betting site within fifty yards of where it was the
Speaker 3: day before, we would consider that the same betting area.
Speaker 3: So that is how we calculated. We basically grouped sites
Speaker 3: together and if they're close enough, we called it a
Speaker 3: betting area. So that's how we broke that apart.
Speaker 2: Okay, did you guys look into what the average length
Speaker 2: of the use of a betting site is. So I'm
Speaker 2: by that. I'm curious, you know, how long when a
Speaker 2: buck does get into these zones, how long is he
Speaker 2: usually there until it gets up and moves to another spot.
Speaker 2: Because another key thing that I know that you guess
Speaker 2: found is that they use multiple betting sites per day, right,
Speaker 2: So I guess you could you dive into both the
Speaker 2: average length if you have that handy, and then how
Speaker 2: many different times they're shifting these locations throughout a given day.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I hate to say it, but this is
Speaker 3: a this is a context as it depends on the
Speaker 3: time of the year and mainly with the rut. But
Speaker 3: if you smooth it out and just come out with
Speaker 3: some averages, we're looking at four different betting sites and
Speaker 3: four different betting bouts per day. Now, on some days
Speaker 3: you might have three different betting sites during the day.
Speaker 3: Some days you may have one. And so we see
Speaker 3: this relationship, especially during the rut, where there's going to
Speaker 3: be less time in the bed and more time on
Speaker 3: their feet. So if we were going to look at
Speaker 3: an average scenario, an average scenario is going to be
Speaker 3: after the more arning movement about. So before sun up
Speaker 3: and we have a movement about, and then roughly two
Speaker 3: to three hours after sun up, they're going to have
Speaker 3: their first bedding event for the day, and that's typically
Speaker 3: going to be an hour or two. And surprisingly, we
Speaker 3: see a lot of midday movement. Now that is not
Speaker 3: going to be an extended movement about like you're going
Speaker 3: to see in the morning or the afternoon. It's kind
Speaker 3: of like getting up for a snack. So it's not
Speaker 3: they're not going to the restaurant for a meal. They're
Speaker 3: just getting up for a snack. So we'll see that
Speaker 3: around midday, which of course is going to present some
Speaker 3: hunting opportunity if they're on their fate during mid day.
Speaker 2: And start to interrupt you Bronson, but is that specifically happening.
Speaker 2: Are you speaking outside of the rut or is it
Speaker 2: just inside the rut.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm kind of smoothing it all over, so non
Speaker 3: rut and rut, okay. And so when we get in
Speaker 3: the rut, you're going to see less, uh less betting bouts,
Speaker 3: and the duration of those betting bouts will be less,
Speaker 3: if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then that that snack time in the rut
Speaker 2: then expands to not just a snack time, but also
Speaker 2: a seeking time too, right, so that at the same
Speaker 2: time activity is higher. Conventional wisdom would say, right, right,
Speaker 2: so I'll continue.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So so we typically see that, So we're
Speaker 3: going to see that first betting bout you know, after
Speaker 3: their their morning movement, there's going to be a little
Speaker 3: bit of movement during the day. We actually even pick
Speaker 3: that up with food plots, and so we're able to detect.
Speaker 3: We have all of our food plots on the landscape digitized,
Speaker 3: so we know where they're at, and then we'll actually
Speaker 3: see some visits to food plots at a time when
Speaker 3: you normally don't think of it, so more than expected
Speaker 3: they will be there at noon or at one pm.
Speaker 3: And then we actually see the decrease or the most
Speaker 3: infrequent use of food plots about three pm, which is
Speaker 3: good if that's when you're typically you know, going to
Speaker 3: the stand and going to be in the vicinity of
Speaker 3: a food plot. That that part is good, but it
Speaker 3: also was telling on you. You've probably seen this mark
Speaker 3: on those days where I'm gonna get back right back
Speaker 3: out there at noon, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go
Speaker 3: early and I'm gonna have a long and you get
Speaker 3: to a food plot area and you and you bump
Speaker 3: deer off the plot. Well, that's probably what you're seeing
Speaker 3: right there, is that little snack movement there during midday,
Speaker 3: and then they go bed down again and then have
Speaker 3: the longer movement about in the afternoon.
Speaker 2: So back to the betting side of things, and we
Speaker 2: talked about how you guys differentiate between sites and areas,
Speaker 2: and you mentioned it that at the front end, that
Speaker 2: there's more betting or diversified betting maybe would be a
Speaker 2: way to think about than some of us think. Do
Speaker 2: we know on average how many different areas most bucks
Speaker 2: will have or what at least you guys have found,
Speaker 2: because I think you know, as you talked about, a
Speaker 2: lot of people think, like, man, this is that Bucks
Speaker 2: bedroom and we put all of our cards into that
Speaker 2: one spot. What is the reality there? I'm not sure
Speaker 2: if you touched on that actual number.
Speaker 3: I think it depends on how large you define the bedroom.
Speaker 3: And so we provided a great example and it's just
Speaker 3: one buck during the rut, But we selected that buck
Speaker 3: intentionally because his number of betting sites and his number
Speaker 3: of betting areas was very indicative of the population average.
Speaker 3: And so over a two week, over a fourteen day period,
Speaker 3: a particular buck that was middle aged three and a half,
Speaker 3: he had forty one different beds during that two week
Speaker 3: period and seventeen different betting areas. Now, those seventeen betting
Speaker 3: areas are spread out over about a square mile, So
Speaker 3: you got to put all that into context. Is that
Speaker 3: buck showing an affinity from when he's going to bed
Speaker 3: down a particular area, Yes, yes he is, but it's
Speaker 3: not a two acre spot. It's not even one hundred
Speaker 3: acre spot. It's about a six hundred acre place. So
Speaker 3: we know where he's spending time. But to be able
Speaker 3: to go to the exact place where you think he's betted,
Speaker 3: that's problem. Yeah, However, think of it this way, Mark too.
Speaker 3: It also provides opportunity. And so the way I've been
Speaker 3: trying to tell the story as well is we've got
Speaker 3: two different ways to approach this. There's reactive meaning that
Speaker 3: we're taking what the deer or the bucks are giving us.
Speaker 3: We're trying to pattern them. We're trying to find the
Speaker 3: ideal locations. If you have the luxury of being on
Speaker 3: private land and if you own the land, especially now
Speaker 3: you have the opportunity via habitat management to create areas
Speaker 3: where there's going to be a higher probability of bedding.
Speaker 3: And so now you go from reactive to proactive or
Speaker 3: you're trying to relegate areas of your property where there's
Speaker 3: going to be a greater likelihood that they're going to
Speaker 3: bed and do those such that you can be able
Speaker 3: to set up between where you know food is where
Speaker 3: you have designated areas of cover and set up in
Speaker 3: between those.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So so speaking of that, one of the things
Speaker 2: that I that I think I recall from a chat
Speaker 2: that you and your team had about this data was
Speaker 2: that it was harder than expected to define exactly the
Speaker 2: key characteristics for a buck to want to bed there
Speaker 2: because there seemed to be a lot of there' seem
Speaker 2: to be a lot of diversity and what individual bucks prefer,
Speaker 2: like one buck really wanted to bet around oxpos of rivers.
Speaker 2: One buck though was all about you know, two different
Speaker 2: cover types coming together or something like that. Is there
Speaker 2: anything that you could say, like, yes, definitively, this was
Speaker 2: a much more likely place to pull in buck bedding
Speaker 2: or any kind of characteristics like that. I'm assuming there's
Speaker 2: some conventional wisdom here, like the basic things we all
Speaker 2: understand is still true. But could you, I guess, expand
Speaker 2: on that.
Speaker 3: Sure? Sure, So one of the things I know and
Speaker 3: one of the things we're working on. And so we
Speaker 3: got some wonderful feedback from people when we went online
Speaker 3: with this and started talking about it. So here's what
Speaker 3: we know, because here's what we measured is we went
Speaker 3: to many of these areas where these bucks bedded, so
Speaker 3: these betting sites, especially some places where numerous times a
Speaker 3: buck was betting there, and we measured the vegetation. And
Speaker 3: what was revealing was that it really did not matter
Speaker 3: whatsoever the type of vegetation. So it could be hardwood stems,
Speaker 3: it could be grass, it could be BlackBerry, it could
Speaker 3: be any form of vegetation as long as it provided
Speaker 3: really good screening cover, meaning visually, when the buck beds down,
Speaker 3: it's essentially hidden and you can't see it. Now, the
Speaker 3: next step that we're literally working on now is if
Speaker 3: we zoom out a little bit more and rather than
Speaker 3: just looking at the place it's bedded and the vegetation
Speaker 3: characteristics around it, are there any landscape features that might
Speaker 3: be more associated or facilitate a buck being bedded there.
Speaker 3: And the one thing that we heard a lot based
Speaker 3: on our study area is we have a big river
Speaker 3: corridor that completely bisected this big sixty thousand acres study area.
Speaker 3: And so for one thing obviously, is that adjacent to
Speaker 3: that river is we have a lot of cover right there,
Speaker 3: you know, And it could be switch cane, it could
Speaker 3: be BlackBerry, it could be a lot of things, but
Speaker 3: we have some cover adjacent to it. But is the
Speaker 3: layout of that relative to the river. Is the layout
Speaker 3: of that cover relative to the river relative to the
Speaker 3: prevailing wind when that buck and go goes and selects
Speaker 3: that area to bet down. That is what we're trying
Speaker 3: to reconcile right now for any.
Speaker 2: Patterns interesting Now correct me if I'm wrong, But I
Speaker 2: feel like I read something in one of your reports
Speaker 2: about there also being an increased usage of betting areas
Speaker 2: that also had food or basis content present in them
Speaker 2: as compared to a betting area that has screening cover
Speaker 2: but does not have the food. Is that is that accurate?
Speaker 3: That was a different study that was in a different
Speaker 3: study area, and that was using camera trap data. But yes,
Speaker 3: if we just if the metric were just use, meaning
Speaker 3: how many times are we seeing deer photos or buck photos?
Speaker 3: Then yes, we saw greater use in areas that combined
Speaker 3: some cover with or adjacent to food. You're exactly right.
Speaker 2: So that would that might I I guess, give someone
Speaker 2: who's who has an ability to manage or and or
Speaker 2: selecting places to hunt that a old field that has
Speaker 2: a mix of grasses and forbs and any kind of
Speaker 2: different kind of low lying, diverse habitat that might be
Speaker 2: a more attractive bedding site than a purely switched grass
Speaker 2: one hundred percent field that has that cover but doesn't
Speaker 2: have the food content.
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, but now we have to separate is that
Speaker 3: what we want from a hunting perspective. So if we
Speaker 3: break it down very simply, so think mark of a
Speaker 3: think of a four year old clearcut regenerating, and it
Speaker 3: is full of cover, and it is full of brows,
Speaker 3: and there's forbes there, there's a diversity. It's going to
Speaker 3: be very very difficult to get into that clear cut
Speaker 3: and hunt that buck. On the other hand, if we
Speaker 3: have let's simplify here, and let's say we had a
Speaker 3: food plot or maybe a managed opening that we maintain
Speaker 3: with fire but where the vegetation structure isn't as tall,
Speaker 3: but it is providing a good open area where a
Speaker 3: deer can feed, and one hundred yards away or adjacent
Speaker 3: or several hundred yards away is cover. And whether that
Speaker 3: cover be forests cover with little food, or whether it
Speaker 3: be something like switchgrass. Now we have a scenario where
Speaker 3: we've essentially are going to force the deer to leave
Speaker 3: cover and move and go to an area for food,
Speaker 3: and that presents hunting opportunity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Yeah, you make a very good point there.
Speaker 2: Speaking of that, it brings up another thing that I
Speaker 2: think I saw you discussing with. I think it was
Speaker 2: Natasha Ellison, who I believe has helped you with with
Speaker 2: a lot of this analysis on your team there there
Speaker 2: have been some discussion around distance or the most common
Speaker 2: distance from a betting air to a food plot. So
Speaker 2: you're looking at, you know what, where these bucks are
Speaker 2: choosing to bet in relation to food, And that's something
Speaker 2: that I think a lot of US hunters think about
Speaker 2: a lot. And there's some commonly held beliefs like okay,
Speaker 2: you're going to have a layer of does and fawns
Speaker 2: first betted closest to food. And then a little bit
Speaker 2: further back from that you might have some younger bucks,
Speaker 2: and then maybe the furthest back in the prime betting
Speaker 2: might be where those mature bucks are. That might be
Speaker 2: like an over generalized theory that you commonly hear. You
Speaker 2: have you guys been able to find if that, well,
Speaker 2: it's to be true or what have you found?
Speaker 3: What we have found is we can address that on
Speaker 3: the buck side. But unfortunately in the study we did
Speaker 3: not simultaneously have dose collared so that that would be
Speaker 3: fantastic if we did, but maybe in the future we
Speaker 3: can do that. But what we found is Natasha, who
Speaker 3: is a mathematician so we can trust her math in
Speaker 3: making these calculations, is she looked at all of the
Speaker 3: betting sites and the location relative to food and mathematically
Speaker 3: was able to determine all of the different distances that
Speaker 3: would be possible from betting site to food and what
Speaker 3: was the average or most frequent distance that a buck
Speaker 3: was bedded to the food that he went to in
Speaker 3: an afternoon feeding bout, and it came out to be
Speaker 3: about two hundred yards. Of course, there are instances where
Speaker 3: it's closer, and then that's going to depend on your
Speaker 3: local area, where is the cover you know in that
Speaker 3: particular area. And there were instances where the buck may
Speaker 3: have traveled over one thousand yards. But if you look
Speaker 3: at over both these years, over this large study area,
Speaker 3: the sweet spot that we found was about two hundred yards.
Speaker 2: Interesting. So another betting detail that I recall you guys
Speaker 2: discussing at one point that I'd be curious to hear
Speaker 2: a little bit more about is we're I think an
Speaker 2: overarching thing here is that these deer, these bucks, likely
Speaker 2: have more betting areas than we maybe have given them
Speaker 2: credit for historically. Because he just described on average, maybe
Speaker 2: there are several hundred yards away from food. Generalizing, but
Speaker 2: one thing you guys measured was circuit time for betting areas, which,
Speaker 2: as I understood it was how often a buck is
Speaker 2: returning to a betting air, so he uses a betting site,
Speaker 2: how long does it take him to return to that
Speaker 2: site if he does, because I remember seeing some data
Speaker 2: that showed that. And again, correct me if I'm wrong
Speaker 2: on any of this, because I'm sure I am trying
Speaker 2: to recall stuff that I looked at when I was
Speaker 2: researching all this. But I think of all of the
Speaker 2: betting sites, you guys looked at, fifty percent of them
Speaker 2: were one and done. So about fifty percent of those
Speaker 2: betting sites where they betted here and they never return.
Speaker 2: But that means that there was another fifty percent of
Speaker 2: betting sites that bucks did eventually return to, and three
Speaker 2: percent of the sites they returned to more than two
Speaker 2: hundred times. So that was wild to hear that that's
Speaker 2: the case. But all that's to say that so fifty
Speaker 2: percent of the time they were returning to one of
Speaker 2: these betting airs. Again, could you walk me through I guess, Hey,
Speaker 2: did I get any of that wrong? Could you expand
Speaker 2: on any of that? As I try to remember these things?
Speaker 2: And then finally, how often or how long is it
Speaker 2: taking them to come back to these betting AARs for
Speaker 2: those ones that they do return to, Because it basically,
Speaker 2: as I ramble on and on here, what I'm getting
Speaker 2: back to is, as a hunter, I'm frequently thinking to myself,
Speaker 2: all right, if I think this buck is better than
Speaker 2: this zone, and if I knew I saw him here yesterday,
Speaker 2: is is he gonna be back every day this week?
Speaker 2: Or is he coming back once a week? Or is
Speaker 2: he coming back once every two weeks or should I
Speaker 2: expect that man if I sit this zone for the
Speaker 2: next three or four days, he's gonna come back eventually.
Speaker 2: Those are the kinds of insights I'm trying to pick
Speaker 2: up here. That's a lot of through at you.
Speaker 3: Sorry, well, a remarkable job, so good retention there, knowledge
Speaker 3: retention there. Yeah, you got it right. So about fifty
Speaker 3: percent of those sites were one and done, never used again.
Speaker 3: So then we had to look at, okay, for those
Speaker 3: that are revisited, how often are they revisited? And then
Speaker 3: that's where the circuit time comes into play. So we
Speaker 3: have fifty percent or one and done, and then we
Speaker 3: have about twenty five percent where they revisit a couple times, two, three,
Speaker 3: four times. And then we had those supersites, which, to
Speaker 3: be completely honest, now some of those super sites that
Speaker 3: is more like what we where we began with the
Speaker 3: Bucks bedroom. Maybe there are a few places on the
Speaker 3: landscape where they do come back, you know, more and
Speaker 3: more and more. But that circuit time was typically for
Speaker 3: the ones they came back to was one to two days, okay,
Speaker 3: So wasn't going to be the morning site and then
Speaker 3: coming back you know the very next day. It might
Speaker 3: be there one morning, afternoon somewhere else and then you know,
Speaker 3: twelve to twenty four hours later coming back to it.
Speaker 2: Interesting. Okay, So I suppose with this betting analysis that
Speaker 2: you guys did, what has been the major application for you? Like,
Speaker 2: now that you've as you as a hunter personally, have
Speaker 2: have looked at this data, how have you applied that
Speaker 2: to your hunting strategy.
Speaker 3: I have become I've tried to become more aware of
Speaker 3: what is going to be quality betting cover for Bucks
Speaker 3: as best we can. And you know, you always have
Speaker 3: to think about this too. Sometimes Bucks do things we
Speaker 3: don't understand why was it betted there? But I try
Speaker 3: to look at areas where I can at least assume
Speaker 3: have good reason to think this is probably an area
Speaker 3: that's going to be very undisturbed. You know, it's going
Speaker 3: to be a little mini sanctuary place and that's probably
Speaker 3: going to be a good cover area. But the hard part,
Speaker 3: mark is that it's not just one area. There's going
Speaker 3: to be a lot of these different places on the landscape.
Speaker 3: So that again is what makes it difficult. I've kind
Speaker 3: of moved more into picking out some of these betting
Speaker 3: areas may be more difficult in the landscape, I am
Speaker 3: in to be able to differentiate and make the call
Speaker 3: unless we can go in there, like we said, proactively
Speaker 3: and make these areas really good. But I've started looking
Speaker 3: more at how food plots and this could also be
Speaker 3: a managed opening. It's just it's easy to use the
Speaker 3: food plot as an example and how these areas can
Speaker 3: serve as hubs of activity and so hub a meaning
Speaker 3: thinking of a train station. There's a lot of different
Speaker 3: routes coming to it. But what we're seeing is that
Speaker 3: those food plots, if they're good ones, is that there's
Speaker 3: going to be a network of movement over the landscape
Speaker 3: utilizing those food plots. And here's something else that Natasha
Speaker 3: calculated that I thought was just fascinating. We started looking
Speaker 3: at how often bucks are going to food plots when
Speaker 3: we go from the nine rut into the pre rut,
Speaker 3: into the peak rut and the post rut, and we
Speaker 3: basically see this ascension of they're using it a lot,
Speaker 3: and they use it more during the rut, and then
Speaker 3: of course they're using it during the post rut, so
Speaker 3: that when you look at it that way, it's just
Speaker 3: a tally. Did a buck go into a food plot.
Speaker 3: We caught him there. Yes, it's a tally of frequency,
Speaker 3: but when we look at the duration of time that
Speaker 3: they're spending on the food plots, it is completely different
Speaker 3: during the rut as compared to the pre pre pre rut,
Speaker 3: So before the pre rut and then the post rut,
Speaker 3: and so at that point is there is a greater
Speaker 3: duration of time. So before the rut they're going to
Speaker 3: the food plot to eat. During the rut, that is
Speaker 3: more of a social aspect, and we've if you've hunted,
Speaker 3: you've seen that. The buck comes in, he looks around,
Speaker 3: he win checks heat checks, et cetera, and he goes
Speaker 3: on and he's probably going to go to another food
Speaker 3: plot and do the same thing. So we see a
Speaker 3: great amount of visitation but very low duration. And then
Speaker 3: as the rut wines down and the post rut comes along,
Speaker 3: that's where we see a boat feeding about is taking
Speaker 3: place on those food plots. So that is changing the
Speaker 3: way I'm hunting. And I guess to summarize, I was
Speaker 3: very long winded. There is I'm thinking of during the rut.
Speaker 3: Maybe I'm not hunting on the food plot, but I'm
Speaker 3: trying as best I can discern to think of the
Speaker 3: corridors and the connections linking a network of food plots,
Speaker 3: whereas in the post rut, I may just hunt, you know,
Speaker 3: decide I'm gonna hunt directly on food. He's going to
Speaker 3: be there.
Speaker 2: So I don't know how this changes my thinking, but
Speaker 2: I think I frequently thought when I am looking at
Speaker 2: a map and trying to think through how deer might
Speaker 2: use an area, I often think of the of a
Speaker 2: betting area as the hub of the wheel, and then
Speaker 2: the spokes are all leading out from a main betting
Speaker 2: era to the three or four different main food sources
Speaker 2: that I might think that they're feeding on. So I've
Speaker 2: always thought of the betting area being the hub and
Speaker 2: that being the more consistent factor. But am I right
Speaker 2: to take the data that you are sharing here and
Speaker 2: should that make me rethink that? And is it more
Speaker 2: accurate to think of the food sources as the hubs
Speaker 2: and that the spokes should be leading to the many,
Speaker 2: many different betting areas And might that be the better
Speaker 2: way to think of a strategy?
Speaker 3: Well, I think we're both right. I think you and
Speaker 3: I could sit here with a crayon or PowerPoint and
Speaker 3: we could come up with a scenario where cover is
Speaker 3: limited in that landscape, and what you described would be
Speaker 3: precisely correct. I think we could also come up with
Speaker 3: scenario that would be common in the South to where
Speaker 3: cover is abundant and food is limited. So you know,
Speaker 3: when we think about Midwest versus the South or the East,
Speaker 3: we go from a cover rich, food limited environment in
Speaker 3: the South to a cover limited abundance of food in
Speaker 3: the Midwest. And so I think it depends on the
Speaker 3: landscape that you're at.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point. Interesting. So we talked about
Speaker 2: affinity for betting areas and how often they're gonna come
Speaker 2: back to a betting area. But before we start recording,
Speaker 2: you mentioned that there's been some stuff you've been looking into,
Speaker 2: maybe a slightly larger scale, about how you know bucks
Speaker 2: might be returning to certain areas, possibly year after year.
Speaker 2: Do you want to expand on that a little bit,
Speaker 2: because this is something that I think ties into something
Speaker 2: that has been picking up more and more steam within
Speaker 2: the hunting world, which is this idea of like annual patterns,
Speaker 2: And I'd love to hear what you maybe have learned
Speaker 2: about that from you know, backed up by data. Possibly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, and so this is interesting to me, and
Speaker 3: this is a classic example of owning up to being wrong.
Speaker 3: I was absolutely wrong about this five plus years ago.
Speaker 2: And so we man say that, well, we have all the.
Speaker 3: Subundance of camera data.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: I would get this question constantly before we had this
Speaker 3: GPS data of you know, I'd get an email, why
Speaker 3: is it that I have this buck? I have them
Speaker 3: on camera every day or every other day, and then
Speaker 3: they would give me a specific week or even a
Speaker 3: three day period, and they would say, it seems like
Speaker 3: every time around the seventh of November or whatever day
Speaker 3: he's gone, or just the opposite, seems like the third
Speaker 3: week of November, this buck is always back. And what's
Speaker 3: going on there? And before we learned about what we're
Speaker 3: called these mobile personalities and these home range shifts and
Speaker 3: the stuff, that we didn't really realize what was going on,
Speaker 3: really had no way to measure that. I honestly thought
Speaker 3: somebody's batteries in their camera had run out. I thought
Speaker 3: they weren't checking it, or the buck was still there
Speaker 3: on the property. He was just maybe not on that camera.
Speaker 3: But what we started seeing is, first of all, we
Speaker 3: have these mobile personality bucks that do these extreme shifts,
Speaker 3: and they're typically doing this shifting at about the same
Speaker 3: time a year. One of our great examples was the
Speaker 3: buck that would fall and winter in Mississippi and spring
Speaker 3: and summer in Louisiana and swim the Mississippi River to
Speaker 3: do that, and the timing of when he did it
Speaker 3: two years in a row was remarkably similar. So that
Speaker 3: just got me thinking of the bucks that we have
Speaker 3: two consecutive years of data. Because remember some of these
Speaker 3: bucks we put a collar on them. In the first fall,
Speaker 3: they die, they get shot, whatever. But of our subsample
Speaker 3: of bucks that we have the collar on them for
Speaker 3: two years in a row, Natasha was able to look
Speaker 3: at from year to year. So from the first week
Speaker 3: of November in twenty seventeen to the first week of
Speaker 3: November in twenty eighteen, how much overlap? And she looked
Speaker 3: at it two ways. If you do their little home
Speaker 3: range on a weekly or monthly scale, is what is
Speaker 3: the proportion of overlap of their range use or area
Speaker 3: use from one year to the next. And then if
Speaker 3: you go to the very center the hub of activity
Speaker 3: of those two areas, what's the distance between those two areas?
Speaker 3: And I have to look at my notes here, because
Speaker 3: I don't have it committed to memory, the amount of
Speaker 3: overlap from year one to year two. And this is
Speaker 3: great because this is occurring during the hunting season. We
Speaker 3: see the greatest amount of overlap during the hunting season
Speaker 3: in October November to Bid November. We see greater than
Speaker 3: eighty percent range overlap from year one to year two.
Speaker 3: And we only see a difference from the center or
Speaker 3: the hub of those activities of only about two to
Speaker 3: three hundred yards.
Speaker 2: Wow. And so in your study area, that time period
Speaker 2: would be like early season to pre rut, right, because
Speaker 2: in Mississippi, your peak of the rut down there would
Speaker 2: be more like December January.
Speaker 3: Correct, that's right, that would be pre rut.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, so let me stay that back to you
Speaker 2: and make sure I've got this right. So what that
Speaker 2: data says is that for me, on a year to
Speaker 2: year basis, these bucks were essentially matching up this They
Speaker 2: were hanging out in the same areas at the same
Speaker 2: times about eighty percent of the time.
Speaker 3: I think I would say it this way, if you
Speaker 3: let's try to maybe frame it the way what a
Speaker 3: hunter would do. Let's say a hunter on a property,
Speaker 3: had a grid of cameras and plodded on a map
Speaker 3: all the areas that they were getting photos of this buck,
Speaker 3: and they drew a polygon around that area. It's like,
Speaker 3: we know this buck is on this property and this
Speaker 3: part of the property. The following year, on average, that
Speaker 3: buck will be using eighty percent of the area it
Speaker 3: was using the year before.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, So these home ranges, these core ranges, have
Speaker 2: you know, year after year fidelity they're going to stick
Speaker 2: to that. Now here's another fill up question. I don't
Speaker 2: know if you guys have had the time to look
Speaker 2: into this, but has that change or has that level
Speaker 2: of certainty changed the older buck gets So would we
Speaker 2: say that that overlap is even higher on a buck
Speaker 2: that's four or five six versus two three four? Have
Speaker 2: you been able to dive into that level yet?
Speaker 3: We have not, and the primary reason for that. So
Speaker 3: our sample is primarily three four and five year old bucks.
Speaker 3: When we capture them they're three, four or five, that's
Speaker 3: going to be like eighty percent of our sample right there.
Speaker 3: The issue is we just have two years with them.
Speaker 3: In a perfect world, we would get a yearling buck
Speaker 3: post dispersal and be able to follow it if it lived,
Speaker 3: follow it to six or seven years of age, that'd
Speaker 3: be the best way to Thanks for that question, but
Speaker 3: unfortunately we don't have that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's really interesting to see to see that.
Speaker 2: Now here's another one that I know. I believe your
Speaker 2: data has supported this, and I know other studies have
Speaker 2: supported that. Many bucks have random excursions that they take
Speaker 2: throughout the year, where they will, you know, for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: randomly take off and go way outside of their home
Speaker 2: range for a handful of days or twenty four hours again,
Speaker 2: whatever it is, and then they come back. Have you
Speaker 2: been able to see if those map up year after year?
Speaker 2: Like will do you have any examples of a buck
Speaker 2: going on an excursion at relatively the same time year
Speaker 2: after year that might support you know, the people who say, like, hey,
Speaker 2: this this random buck shows up the first week November
Speaker 2: every year and then I don't see them the rest
Speaker 2: of the year. Have we been able to document anything
Speaker 2: like that in the study.
Speaker 3: We have not. Marked that's a good question. We have not,
Speaker 3: but we haven't looked at it that way. We were
Speaker 3: able to go through and document the excursions and the
Speaker 3: frequency of it and so forth, but we did not
Speaker 3: look at the subset of the data of of the
Speaker 3: bucks yet where where when they took their excursion and
Speaker 3: where they excursed too, and see if it's related to
Speaker 3: the following year. But we can put that on the list.
Speaker 3: Look at that's a good question.
Speaker 2: I imagine you've got a very long list because of
Speaker 2: this kind of data. I imagine there's so many different
Speaker 2: questions you'd want to apply to it right right, and
Speaker 2: and dig into and see see what's there. There's probably
Speaker 2: years and years worth of analysis you could do with
Speaker 2: this stuff. Absolutely, you mentioned these mobile deer personalities. Could
Speaker 2: you expand a little bit on that. I think you
Speaker 2: guys have differentiated basically bucks into two categories, either mobile
Speaker 2: personalities or sedentary. Could you could you discuss that a
Speaker 2: little bit, how you differentiate them and and what's the
Speaker 2: proportion of one to the other?
Speaker 3: Sure thing? Yeah, so sedentary? Uh, that is essentially what
Speaker 3: we think of a deer's home range is throughout the year.
Speaker 3: Meaning if you were to take a bird's eye view
Speaker 3: or nowadays we'd say a Google Earth view, is that
Speaker 3: you would look at the points of all his locations
Speaker 3: and they would just be in one big area. If
Speaker 3: you took a particular time period apart. You know, for
Speaker 3: this month, it might be in this part of its
Speaker 3: annual home range and then this part in its annual
Speaker 3: home range. But essentially it's all overlapping, and it's about
Speaker 3: depending on the buck, it may be five hundred acres,
Speaker 3: it may be fifteen hundred acres, but essentially a great
Speaker 3: deal of overlap for twelve months out of the year.
Speaker 3: But we found out about thirty percent of the bucks
Speaker 3: have just what we termed as mobile personality, meaning that
Speaker 3: for part of the year they have a completely distinct
Speaker 3: and non overlapping home range. And so very simply well,
Speaker 3: the buck I referred to earlier that swam the Mississippi
Speaker 3: River is our best example. Those are non overlapping home
Speaker 3: ranges that it had in Mississippi and it had in
Speaker 3: Louisiana and the river in between, and there's like fifteen
Speaker 3: to eighteen miles, you know, in between those, and so yeah,
Speaker 3: what we learned is that there's about thirty percent of
Speaker 3: the bucks are doing that is they're going to spend
Speaker 3: part of their year in one location and then they
Speaker 3: might go a mile or two or ten and move
Speaker 3: completely somewhere else and spend a portion of the year.
Speaker 2: So I feel like at least what I have kind
Speaker 2: of zeroed in on and without data, have kind of
Speaker 2: thought that about give or take that amount of the
Speaker 2: bucks in the places I hunt, about a third of them,
Speaker 2: give or take, seemed to disappear during what a lotus
Speaker 2: called the September shift. So like that first week of September,
Speaker 2: give or take, you know, most the bucks lose their velvet,
Speaker 2: And that tends to be when I have seen and
Speaker 2: most folks I talk to tend to see if there's
Speaker 2: going to be some dispersal, some shift in range, that's
Speaker 2: usually when it happens. Is that what you guys are
Speaker 2: seeing as well with the data, is that when these
Speaker 2: mobile personality bucks make that range shift, or is there
Speaker 2: a different time of year that's happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what what you're referring to there is I would
Speaker 3: call the the bachelor group breakup, so that that is
Speaker 3: uniformly happening right there. What we're seeing, I guess, is
Speaker 3: a special case of that in two ways. Number One,
Speaker 3: the distance that they shift to is further, and the
Speaker 3: time of year can be completely different than during that
Speaker 3: September bachelor group breakup and what we found on average,
Speaker 3: And I keep saying on average, because bucks are individual,
Speaker 3: and we have some that do extraordinary things and we
Speaker 3: have some that are very predictable. But on average, if
Speaker 3: you look at the center of their activity during the
Speaker 3: summer and then the center of activity when they do
Speaker 3: the shift, the shuffle that you're talking about, it can
Speaker 3: be one thousand to fifteen hundred yards apart. That's kind
Speaker 3: of a good range. And so when you break that
Speaker 3: down into normal property sizes, not on a ten thousand
Speaker 3: acre property, but on a five hundred acre property, when
Speaker 3: you have that shuffle or that shift, you have some
Speaker 3: bucks went off your property and you traded them for
Speaker 3: some bucks that came on to your property.
Speaker 2: I guess the only other thing I'd be curious would
Speaker 2: be when it comes to this, this idea of site
Speaker 2: affinity for bucks, going back to you know this, this
Speaker 2: idea of of annual trends or patterns lining up. Has
Speaker 2: that effected your hunting at all? Personally? Have have you?
Speaker 2: Does this make you lean more into learning individual bucks
Speaker 2: tendencies in some kind of way or is there any
Speaker 2: other application to that for you?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think the uh for me? Anyway, I think
Speaker 3: the take home is whether it is from observation or
Speaker 3: more likely it would be from camera data. Is whenever
Speaker 3: you see a buck using a portion of the property
Speaker 3: in a particular time of the year and you're unsuccessful
Speaker 3: connecting with that buck, or maybe it's a buck that
Speaker 3: is of interest and he's three years of age and
Speaker 3: I would really like to see him at four or
Speaker 3: at five. Is we've demonstrated with with reasonable confidence that
Speaker 3: you could predict that buck the following year is going
Speaker 3: to be in that same area. So do your homework
Speaker 3: ahead of time and be set up so when he
Speaker 3: starts using that area you can capitalize on it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So another version of this would be this idea
Speaker 2: around focal areas specifically during the rut. You know, for
Speaker 2: a lot of years folks have talked about during the rut,
Speaker 2: you can't pattern bucks. They're all over the place. It's crazy,
Speaker 2: it's chaos. And then I can't remember how when this
Speaker 2: verse came out, but some number of years ago, five
Speaker 2: to ten years ago, I feel like you started hearing
Speaker 2: about some data that came out about how I actually
Speaker 2: there's been identified focal areas for many bucks during the
Speaker 2: rut that they do return to over and over again,
Speaker 2: and I'm just curious, did you guys see something similar
Speaker 2: in your data more recently? Do you have any updates
Speaker 2: on that? Is that still something that we can be
Speaker 2: thinking about and looking for when we develop our rut
Speaker 2: hunting strategies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think the group that first termed that
Speaker 3: were my colleagues in South Texas and Aaron Foley and
Speaker 3: Randy DeYoung and those guys. Yeah, they started finding. Now again,
Speaker 3: different landscape, different landscape, the distribution of cover can be different,
Speaker 3: but they started finding these areas and I think the
Speaker 3: way they reconciled it was they essentially started seeing focal
Speaker 3: areas and a circuit that these bucks were going to
Speaker 3: these focal areas. But what they surmised was that in
Speaker 3: every one of these focal areas where there was cover
Speaker 3: is a group of doves, and so that buck is
Speaker 3: on a circuit to go in heat check. Are there
Speaker 3: any does in Estris? If they are great, If not,
Speaker 3: they're going to go to the next focal area. I
Speaker 3: would say with us, it's similar to what we just
Speaker 3: talked about with this affinity and them coming back to
Speaker 3: the same areas every year, and how that's even shifting
Speaker 3: from year to year, but they're still using the same area.
Speaker 3: Another thing mark that I thought was really interesting was
Speaker 3: that we see throughout the year, as we've known for
Speaker 3: a long long time, the home range, the area used
Speaker 3: by a buck is going to increase during the rut,
Speaker 3: probably by fifty percent, maybe one hundred percent. It could
Speaker 3: possibly double. But what was interesting to me is that
Speaker 3: on a daily scale it is absolutely uniform from no rut,
Speaker 3: pre rut, peak rut, post rut, et cetera. They use
Speaker 3: two hundred acres per day. If you look at a
Speaker 3: daily home range, if you encapsulate the area that they
Speaker 3: used in a day, it's two hundred acres. So how
Speaker 3: that works out to the home range expanding is that
Speaker 3: in the pre rut, from day to day, with those
Speaker 3: two hundred acre home ranges, there's overlap. Then when we
Speaker 3: get into the rut, there is a greater distance between
Speaker 3: two hundred acres here two hundred acres there. That's what
Speaker 3: makes the home range grow during the rut.
Speaker 2: And so that's just the data supporting the generally believed
Speaker 2: concept that you're gonna have bucks checking out different zones
Speaker 2: to find a doing heat right, right, But so I
Speaker 2: guess with that being said, and then what also what
Speaker 2: Folly in their team saw though, does that still support
Speaker 2: the idea that if you know of a core a
Speaker 2: couple core dough hotspots that you effectively to it some
Speaker 2: degree could hunt for a specific buck by dialing in
Speaker 2: on that spot or two just knowing that, man, this
Speaker 2: is where historically this buck has always wanted to check
Speaker 2: dose here. And rather than chasing your tail going here,
Speaker 2: going there, going everywhere, you could hypothetically volume set one
Speaker 2: of these hot spots that you know historically he's been on,
Speaker 2: because there should he should continue to return and check
Speaker 2: those to some bearing degree.
Speaker 3: Right, yep, yeah, I think it's right. So let's think
Speaker 3: of it now, maybe not a focal area relative to cover.
Speaker 3: Let's think about it as that hub or that focal
Speaker 3: area relative to a productive food plot or a network
Speaker 3: of food plots. And like we said earlier, bucks are
Speaker 3: visiting food plots during the rut, but their duration of
Speaker 3: stay is amenimal, but more subplots.
Speaker 2: A right, right, more food plot visits, but just shorter duration.
Speaker 3: Correct, it's actually about the same. Yeah, there's a little
Speaker 3: bit less visit in the post rut. You're exactly right.
Speaker 3: But they stay for a long time because there's a
Speaker 3: feeding bout involved. So they're visiting those food plots. I
Speaker 3: think that's very akin to what Folly found out, but
Speaker 3: just the habitat of the vegetation is different. That was
Speaker 3: more relative to cover patches. The buck is visiting. I'm
Speaker 3: talking about them visiting food opportunities because at that food
Speaker 3: opportunity is there is going to be a group of
Speaker 3: does somewhere around that using it.
Speaker 2: And so in both cases it's actually just where's the
Speaker 2: dough hotspot? Like where's the dough concentration? And in some
Speaker 2: areas that's going to be well, let's talk about with
Speaker 2: the limiting factor is right, and the limiting factor in
Speaker 2: certain places like for you, it was that we've got
Speaker 2: these food those are the limited resources. So that's where
Speaker 2: your best doll concentration will be versus middle of nowhere, Kansas.
Speaker 2: It might be cover equals your dough hot spot because
Speaker 2: that's the one concentration is something rare. That's a really
Speaker 2: key insight I think for people is to think about
Speaker 2: that way. It's so easy to get stuck on Well,
Speaker 2: this person said cover, and so I've got a zero
Speaker 2: in uncover at this time of year. But again you
Speaker 2: have to always look at what's the context in your
Speaker 2: situation in your place. Very interesting, So I want to
Speaker 2: give us a little time here at the end to
Speaker 2: cover off on a few things that every time I
Speaker 2: get to talk to someone who's so drastically smarter than
Speaker 2: I am, and so much more grounded and data than
Speaker 2: I am, that you can correct my preconceived notions myths
Speaker 2: that I believe in, you know, app of the day, algorithm,
Speaker 2: predicting trends of the day, etc. There As a diehard
Speaker 2: whitetail hunter, we all have these different ideas around what
Speaker 2: triggers deer movement, whether it be wind and weather conditions,
Speaker 2: whether it be the moon. Of course that's a big one.
Speaker 2: So I'd love to get your take on some of
Speaker 2: those and where things stand today. I know we talked
Speaker 2: about this the very first podcast we did together, like
Speaker 2: ten years ago maybe and you basically, if I remember right,
Speaker 2: I think most of it you said was hogwak. But
Speaker 2: I'd love to hear where things stand today. Let's start
Speaker 2: with the moon. Maybe do we have or is there
Speaker 2: anything new when it comes to any possible correlation between
Speaker 2: the moon and deer movement.
Speaker 3: So we did a survey mark online. Because we are
Speaker 3: we're doing an exhaust we are wrapping up a very
Speaker 3: exhaustive analysis. So a couple of years ago we put
Speaker 3: some data, a very crude analysis I did of just
Speaker 3: looking at moon phase meaning new moon, full moon, and
Speaker 3: then just looking at daytime movements, nighttime movements, et cetera.
Speaker 3: In my eyes, both as a researcher and as a hunter,
Speaker 3: I was not motivated by those data. There may on
Speaker 3: a particular day been a subtle increase, but it was
Speaker 3: not enough to motivate me. Well, then we got an,
Speaker 3: I guess, an outcry. We got a lot of feedback saying,
Speaker 3: but you didn't look at moon position, you didn't look
Speaker 3: at moon rising overhead, underfoot all that time. So we
Speaker 3: we have looked at that to a great detail, and
Speaker 3: we are hopefully we're just a few weeks away from
Speaker 3: doing uh, Natasha and I and others, we will do
Speaker 3: a one to two hour exhaustive, tedious review of those data.
Speaker 3: But but before that, we wanted to basically mark ask people.
Speaker 3: We did a survey and when you when you pin
Speaker 3: someone down, so mark, I might I might approach it
Speaker 3: like this with you, I might say number one. Here's
Speaker 3: the first question of the hierarchy of questions. Number one,
Speaker 3: Do you believe the moon is affecting deer movement? Yes
Speaker 3: or no? Do you can you can or cannot answer us?
Speaker 3: Up to you?
Speaker 2: Sure, Sure, I guess I will answer because I am
Speaker 2: so torn on this because I would say if I
Speaker 2: had to say yes or no, I gosh, I'm so
Speaker 2: right in the middle of Bronson. But I guess I'll
Speaker 2: say yes. But maybe it's a little.
Speaker 3: Okay, So eighty three percent of people are like you.
Speaker 3: They believe the moon has some type of influence. So
Speaker 3: then once you go into your dichotomous ski there now,
Speaker 3: So now we go into the yes, I think it influences.
Speaker 2: Now, just got to say, I love the fact that
Speaker 2: you just said dichotomus key on this podcast. That's one
Speaker 2: of you don't hear that one too often.
Speaker 3: So if you said yes, now we've got to ask you, Okay,
Speaker 3: how how do we measure it? Is it that they're
Speaker 3: moving a greater distance, Is it that they're up on
Speaker 3: their feet earlier in the day, is it that they
Speaker 3: are bedded less, et cetera.
Speaker 2: This is the key question. These are the questions that
Speaker 2: I've wanted to know for so long because every time
Speaker 2: this moon thing comes up, I've always felt like the
Speaker 2: studies have not looked at the right things. They haven't
Speaker 2: looked at the little stuff like that that doesn't maybe
Speaker 2: matter statistic it doesn't register its statistically significant for most studies,
Speaker 2: but for a hunter who cares if a mature buck
Speaker 2: travels fifty yards further ten minutes earlier in the day,
Speaker 2: that is a huge significance for the hunter. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're getting to the the key stuff.
Speaker 3: And that is precisely the feedback. And so before we
Speaker 3: did this, I wanted not as agotcha or to catch anybody,
Speaker 3: I really wanted to understand or you're familiar mark with
Speaker 3: the term effect size.
Speaker 2: That's the yeah, make sure I've got it right.
Speaker 3: The difference between a treatment, so treatment or control, the
Speaker 3: effect size is the difference those two. So you mentioned
Speaker 3: something a moment ago statistically different. So I wanted to
Speaker 3: move away from us saying such and such was or
Speaker 3: was not statistically different. I wanted to wanted it to
Speaker 3: be a useful effect size of treatment. And what we
Speaker 3: found is that there were again two groups of people.
Speaker 3: There was a group that, yeah, I think the moon
Speaker 3: affects them based on what I've seen and what my
Speaker 3: dad and my grandpa said. But when you pin them on, okay,
Speaker 3: what does that mean? Well, I don't know. I just
Speaker 3: know the moon affects them. And then you had what
Speaker 3: I would call the cover slash bed bow hunting out
Speaker 3: of a saddle sounds like me. Now that's the dialed
Speaker 3: in person. And what they said what was really really important.
Speaker 3: It was if that buck is on his feet five
Speaker 3: minutes earlier, and that buck moves one hundred more yards
Speaker 3: before sunset, then that gives me an advantage. Heck, yeah,
Speaker 3: so what we generally found. And again I don't want
Speaker 3: to steal Natasha's thunder. I know she wants to talk
Speaker 3: about all this in great detail on a podcast, but
Speaker 3: the result will be meaningful to the type of hunter
Speaker 3: that you are. So we did see some differences, meaning
Speaker 3: the value of the non moon day. However, we were
Speaker 3: calculating the effect of the moon the control day versus
Speaker 3: the treatment day. There were some subtle differences. To me
Speaker 3: and the way I hunt. It would not be meaningful
Speaker 3: enough for Mekay for someone that wanted to get I've
Speaker 3: got a two minute opportunity before sunset that that buck
Speaker 3: may be moving through two minutes before then. They may
Speaker 3: look at our results and say, all right, there's something
Speaker 3: there interesting.
Speaker 2: Okay, now, I know you don't want to spill too
Speaker 2: many of the beans, and I'll make sure people go
Speaker 2: listen to the rest or listen to the full scoop
Speaker 2: on your podcast. Dear University, everybody should go there subscribe
Speaker 2: like share, But tell me this, Can you tell me this?
Speaker 2: Can you tell me what variable or related to the
Speaker 2: moon seemed to have that strongest connection. Was it overhead
Speaker 2: underfoot times matching up with the first hour of daylight,
Speaker 2: last hour of daylight, that kind of thing, or was
Speaker 2: it moon rising setting times matching with that and anything
Speaker 2: like that?
Speaker 3: If I remember correctly, because my goodness, Natasha sliced this
Speaker 3: up every way possible, there were just about every one
Speaker 3: of those categories mark had the smallest difference. But remember
Speaker 3: sometimes the direction was not what you thought, meaning sometimes
Speaker 3: the effect was not positive that it moved more, but
Speaker 3: it was that it moved less. And so everything that
Speaker 3: we looked at had a little bit of an increase
Speaker 3: or a little bit of a decrease. And what we
Speaker 3: essentially did was we paired together the amount of time
Speaker 3: that it was in the bed that day, the time
Speaker 3: of day that it was up on its feet and
Speaker 3: started moving, and then from when it started moving to
Speaker 3: sunset the distance of ground that it covered. So we
Speaker 3: kind of have three different measurements there.
Speaker 2: That's perfect. Do you have any of those specifics you
Speaker 2: could share now or do we need to wait for them?
Speaker 3: We got to wait on that boat.
Speaker 2: I had to ask, Yeah, well, that's fascinating. That's very
Speaker 2: interesting that you guys were able to look to that degree.
Speaker 3: And what we're going to do with that mark is
Speaker 3: we went a different route. We didn't write like a
Speaker 3: twenty page document with a bunch of narrative. We basically
Speaker 3: went into every one of these theories and gave a
Speaker 3: heading of here's the hypothesis, here's the theory, here's how
Speaker 3: we did it, here's the result. Turn the page, here's
Speaker 3: the other one. So we've got about ten pages of
Speaker 3: every type of moon theory with the data and the
Speaker 3: graphs and the interpretation and all that is going to
Speaker 3: be free for download in a few weeks.
Speaker 2: Amazing. Yeah, So do we have a target date? When
Speaker 2: do we should look for that?
Speaker 3: My target is like October fifteenth, okay, but sometimes at
Speaker 3: the university the wheels turned slow. Sure, but it's going
Speaker 3: to be out of our hands and literally in a
Speaker 3: few days and then it has to go into production
Speaker 3: and so whenever that gets produced and put online.
Speaker 2: Okay. So there's been a lot of people that want
Speaker 2: to see that. Of course, where should they go to
Speaker 2: see that and or sign up to be notified of
Speaker 2: it or anything like that.
Speaker 3: We will have a copy of it for download on
Speaker 3: our website MSU deer lab dot com. We will also
Speaker 3: as soon as it is available with the download link,
Speaker 3: it'll be on social media, so MSU dear Lab, Facebook
Speaker 3: or Instagram, it'll be out there.
Speaker 2: Okay. Last couple quick questions. So you're doing this exhaustive
Speaker 2: moon study, which I'm so glad it's happening. Has there
Speaker 2: been anything done like this that I haven't heard of
Speaker 2: somehow when it comes to weather impacts, So exact same
Speaker 2: questions you're asking with the moon, but you know, barometric
Speaker 2: pressure being the variable we're controlling for and looking at,
Speaker 2: or wind speed or delta of temperature change over the
Speaker 2: course of a twenty four hour period or something like that.
Speaker 2: Because there's all these theories around that too. We all
Speaker 2: love cold fronts. We all think, not all of us,
Speaker 2: but many people think that a rising barometer gives us
Speaker 2: an increase in deer moent YadA, YadA, YadA. But again, historically,
Speaker 2: most studies have not backed that up. Is there anything
Speaker 2: new on that front that you know of or that
Speaker 2: you guys may be working on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we are working on that, and so we're going
Speaker 3: to get the moon stuff out. After that, we're going
Speaker 3: to get on the home range shifting stuff that the
Speaker 3: year to year affinity stuff that is out. And Natasha
Speaker 3: is also working on that exact question. So she is
Speaker 3: going to be looking at that. And it's more complicated
Speaker 3: than it seems because with weather there are so many
Speaker 3: intercorrelated aspects of that. Is it the temperature, is it
Speaker 3: the wind speed? Is it the barometer? Is it the direction?
Speaker 3: And so we really need someone with her capability to
Speaker 3: really tease all that apart for cause and effect. But
Speaker 3: that is on the list and our goal it may
Speaker 3: be January, but our goal is to also get that
Speaker 3: out this steer season.
Speaker 2: Amazing, you guys are doing good work. I'm very thankful
Speaker 2: that these very nuanced looks at these questions are now
Speaker 2: being sliced and diced and examined because there's a handful
Speaker 2: of folks like got like me out there who are
Speaker 2: dying to know and very glad this is all going
Speaker 2: to be coming to light so ronson as I knew
Speaker 2: it would be. This has been fascinating. I appreciate your
Speaker 2: insight and everything you guys are doing over there at
Speaker 2: Mississippi State. You just gave folks a couple good action
Speaker 2: items there as far as where they can go to
Speaker 2: get the moon study. But is there anywhere else you
Speaker 2: want to direct folks if they want to learn more,
Speaker 2: if they want to connect with your team and the
Speaker 2: content you guys are putting out there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you for mentioning this earlier. But yeah, all
Speaker 3: of the stuff we've talked about today and in the
Speaker 3: future is going to be on the Deer University podcast.
Speaker 3: And just be forewarned, it's a bunch of dorky scientists
Speaker 3: type people and so we can get into the weeds.
Speaker 2: We love it.
Speaker 3: But the good thing about a podcast is that you
Speaker 3: can hit fast forward. You know, if we get stuck there,
Speaker 3: just fast forward.
Speaker 2: But we do that.
Speaker 3: We also take that same information, especially when there's a
Speaker 3: visual context to it, and we put that on our
Speaker 3: YouTube channel, so go there, and then of course on
Speaker 3: social where we do little snapshots, little figures and so
Speaker 3: forth on Instagram and Facebook. So if you go to
Speaker 3: the podcast or social media, that pretty much captures it.
Speaker 2: All right, wonderful. Well, I will continue to be following
Speaker 2: from Afar and anxiously awaiting the Moon study and then
Speaker 2: V two of the weather. Yeah, I'm very excited about that.
Speaker 2: So thank you for doing that work. And man, just
Speaker 2: thank you again for this. It was great. Catching up
Speaker 2: is great, getting to get update on where all these
Speaker 2: things stand and getting all of our understanding on the
Speaker 2: science of deer up to speed.
Speaker 3: So thank you for that absolutely anytime. Happy to.
Speaker 2: All right, and that's it for today. Thank you for
Speaker 2: being here, Thanks for being a part of this community.
Speaker 2: As we just discussed, make sure you go follow all
Speaker 2: of Bronson's and the Deer Labs content and resources. Lots
Speaker 2: of good stuff out there. And I think with that said,
Speaker 2: I'll lets you all get out there to the woods.
Speaker 2: Best of luck and until next time, stay wired to hunt.