1
00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:03,079
Speaker 1: Hi.

2
00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:07,440
Speaker 2: This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,

3
00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:08,039
Speaker 2: and speaker.

4
00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:10,240
Speaker 3: And this is Sarah Hart Hunger.

5
00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:13,520
Speaker 4: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger.

6
00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:15,880
Speaker 4: On the side, we are two working parents who love

7
00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:17,480
Speaker 4: our careers and our families.

8
00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:19,360
Speaker 3: Welcome to best of both worlds.

9
00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,439
Speaker 2: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

10
00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,840
Speaker 2: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

11
00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,400
Speaker 2: out long term career goals. We want you to get

12
00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:34,159
Speaker 2: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds.

13
00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,640
Speaker 2: This is Laura. In this episode, Sarah is going to

14
00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,000
Speaker 2: be interviewing doctor Kathleen Smith, who is a licensed therapy

15
00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,040
Speaker 2: with a PhD in counseling. Is also the author of

16
00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,000
Speaker 2: the book Everything Isn't Terrible. So, Sarah, why don't you

17
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,600
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about why you found doctor Smith.

18
00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,640
Speaker 4: Yes, so, a blog reader actually recommended her book to

19
00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,840
Speaker 4: me when I was going through some period of overwhelm.

20
00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,560
Speaker 4: I don't remember actually when the initial recommendation came in.

21
00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,440
Speaker 4: I think it was around my big career transition, a

22
00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,360
Speaker 4: lot of big feelings I was having in twenty twenty two,

23
00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,560
Speaker 4: around changing things around and making some really big decisions

24
00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,760
Speaker 4: and going through some tough things, but I kind of

25
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,800
Speaker 4: forgot about the recommendation and had it in the back

26
00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,759
Speaker 4: of my mind. But then when I had another kind

27
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,280
Speaker 4: of slightly rocky period, which was nothing big, it was

28
00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,160
Speaker 4: just like kind of struggling to find our family rhythm

29
00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,520
Speaker 4: after travel and just feeling incredibly behind with everything. I

30
00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,440
Speaker 4: wasn't used to taking a whole two weeks away, And

31
00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,000
Speaker 4: it turns out it's like something you you know, have

32
00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,319
Speaker 4: to learn how to deal with, I guess, And so

33
00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:38,520
Speaker 4: I was like, you know, I should read That Everything

34
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,160
Speaker 4: Isn't Terrible book that someone recommended to me a year ago,

35
00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,560
Speaker 4: and I just found it really really accessible and warm,

36
00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,680
Speaker 4: and it's like a book that addresses anxiety, but not

37
00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:49,800
Speaker 4: at the like full on clinical level, like at the

38
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,880
Speaker 4: level that just many of us are going to experience

39
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,840
Speaker 4: at various times. Has a lot of practical solutions and

40
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,360
Speaker 4: good examples in there. So I really liked it and

41
00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,000
Speaker 4: I linked to it on my blog, the shoebox Dot

42
00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,960
Speaker 4: and then I got an email from the author, which

43
00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,520
Speaker 4: is like just the most wild thing that like this

44
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,960
Speaker 4: happens in this day and age that you can connect

45
00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:09,640
Speaker 4: to someone that way. But I guess she saw the

46
00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,200
Speaker 4: traffic coming from the shoebox dot com and was like,

47
00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:12,760
Speaker 4: who is this?

48
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:15,720
Speaker 3: So then when she wrote me, I was like, would

49
00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:16,960
Speaker 3: you like to come on? Best of Both?

50
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:18,520
Speaker 4: Actually I think she said I'm a best of both

51
00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:20,880
Speaker 4: worlds listener, like I know you, and then I said

52
00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:21,840
Speaker 4: would you like to come on?

53
00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,240
Speaker 2: So I was so excited. So yeah, that is really awesome. Yeah,

54
00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,840
Speaker 2: I know, it's fun when things turn into a connection

55
00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:30,840
Speaker 2: that's out there. I mean people are like, oh, I

56
00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,400
Speaker 2: saw this, and then they reach out and you know,

57
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,680
Speaker 2: I encourage people to send those random emails, right, Like

58
00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:38,640
Speaker 2: you know, Sarah has a blog, so obviously people can

59
00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,560
Speaker 2: see if she's linking to them. But you know, if

60
00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,880
Speaker 2: you read something by someone you like, you send an

61
00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,200
Speaker 2: email saying you do, and often like people will respond

62
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:48,840
Speaker 2: because you know, it's cool to make a connection in

63
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,160
Speaker 2: the world with somebody who's interested in the same topic.

64
00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,640
Speaker 3: So yeah, yes, you can email us anytime.

65
00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:55,959
Speaker 2: Emails anytime. That is true.

66
00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:56,799
Speaker 3: You always love to hear.

67
00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,480
Speaker 2: And maybe if you think we're terrible, you can keep

68
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,560
Speaker 2: that to yourself, but if you have constructive feedback, we're

69
00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:03,080
Speaker 2: open to that.

70
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:03,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

71
00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me just say that she has an excellent

72
00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:11,920
Speaker 2: book title, because you're like, the title is Everything Isn't Terrible.

73
00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:13,959
Speaker 2: You're like, well, what's your book about? Well, the fact

74
00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,880
Speaker 2: that everything Isn't Terrible? Well, okay, there's no no ambiguity there,

75
00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:19,320
Speaker 2: So big shout out for that one.

76
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,720
Speaker 3: It was a great title. It is a great title.

77
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,079
Speaker 4: So for you any particular periods in your life when

78
00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 4: you find things extra stressful and might benefit from reading

79
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,200
Speaker 4: something called Everything Isn't Terrible?

80
00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:34,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.

81
00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 2: I mean I I always find book launch times to

82
00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,560
Speaker 2: be a little bit stressful for me, and it's partly

83
00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,400
Speaker 2: because you want to do everything you can, and then

84
00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,040
Speaker 2: you also have to acknowledge that there is a lot

85
00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,240
Speaker 2: that is out of your control. I mean maybe not.

86
00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,320
Speaker 2: If you're like Oprah writing a book or something, then

87
00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,960
Speaker 2: you have the ability or you know, any celebrity has

88
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,760
Speaker 2: some ability to get on something. But even then their

89
00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,080
Speaker 2: books can tank too. People cannot like them and be like,

90
00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,640
Speaker 2: well that just didn't do anything for me. And next thing,

91
00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,960
Speaker 2: you know, like or big news happens. Right, Like, if

92
00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,440
Speaker 2: there's a huge news thing that happens and your book

93
00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,560
Speaker 2: just came out, your book's gonna get buried and nobody's

94
00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,960
Speaker 2: gonna hear about it, and there is nothing you can

95
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,000
Speaker 2: do about it. Like, you worked hard on this thing

96
00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,200
Speaker 2: for years and put it out there, and.

97
00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,640
Speaker 4: You think of all the Spring twenty twenty books, like

98
00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,680
Speaker 4: Spring twenty twenty books, but you know, everything they had

99
00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,600
Speaker 4: planned in terms of like live events or anything like that,

100
00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:31,120
Speaker 4: it just didn't work.

101
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,760
Speaker 2: And it wasn't that they didn't write good books or anything,

102
00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:35,359
Speaker 2: and so you know, sometimes I.

103
00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,240
Speaker 3: Get a little, uh.

104
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,520
Speaker 2: The role of luck in this is huge, and some

105
00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,400
Speaker 2: people get very lucky hits first time up at bat

106
00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,159
Speaker 2: and think they've done something brilliant, but often there's not

107
00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,480
Speaker 2: a lot of difference between that book and something that

108
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,400
Speaker 2: came out in Spring twenty twenty. I didn't have a

109
00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,039
Speaker 2: book come out in Spring twenty twenty, but for people

110
00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,120
Speaker 2: who did, I really felt for them because in many

111
00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,000
Speaker 2: cases they had excellent books, but they didn't get that

112
00:04:58,040 --> 00:04:58,560
Speaker 2: initial thing.

113
00:04:58,880 --> 00:04:59,040
Speaker 1: Now.

114
00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,080
Speaker 2: Of course, if it is an excell book, obviously over

115
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,080
Speaker 2: time sometimes it can find its audience and grow, and

116
00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,839
Speaker 2: that's that's awesome, But anyway, that's a different thing. So

117
00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,200
Speaker 2: I'm always in a little like tense mood about that

118
00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,160
Speaker 2: and feel like you know, I haven't done X Y

119
00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,640
Speaker 2: or Z, or you know, haven't been able to guarantee

120
00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,320
Speaker 2: X Y and Z, even if I've been doing a

121
00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:18,920
Speaker 2: ton of stuff.

122
00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,200
Speaker 4: So yeah, it probably just feels like never enough, very

123
00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:23,160
Speaker 4: much out of your control.

124
00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:24,560
Speaker 3: And also that feeling of judgment.

125
00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,880
Speaker 4: I mean, I know, like I think the first time

126
00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,840
Speaker 4: I experienced that was when I first launched a course

127
00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 4: and I was like, oh my god, I'm asking like

128
00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,680
Speaker 4: people to like decide if they want me or not.

129
00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,520
Speaker 4: And like, I guess that's similar to buying a book,

130
00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,720
Speaker 4: and it can be a little scary.

131
00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:38,479
Speaker 1: A little scary.

132
00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess I would put a little bit

133
00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,360
Speaker 2: of space between it. They're not buying you, They're buying

134
00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,400
Speaker 2: a product you are offering, correct, And so people can

135
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,280
Speaker 2: think Sarah is a wonderful, awesome person, and then maybe

136
00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,040
Speaker 2: one of Sarah's products is maybe not as good as

137
00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:54,760
Speaker 2: all the other ones and people don't want it or you.

138
00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,080
Speaker 3: Know, it's not quite as compelling right for them. There

139
00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,400
Speaker 3: wasn't right for right.

140
00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's totally nothing to do with your worth

141
00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,200
Speaker 2: as a person, which I think is one of those

142
00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,320
Speaker 2: things that probably comes out and everything isn't terrible, right.

143
00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:08,880
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.

144
00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, well, let's hear what Kathleen has to

145
00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,440
Speaker 2: say about this, and maybe she can convince all of

146
00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,000
Speaker 2: us that everything isn't terrible.

147
00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,400
Speaker 4: So I am here with doctor Kathleen Smith, who is

148
00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,440
Speaker 4: the author of Everything Isn't Terrible, which is probably a

149
00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,560
Speaker 4: very timely topic for right now, as lots of us

150
00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,480
Speaker 4: have things on our mind and the news cycle is

151
00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,760
Speaker 4: a little bit more stressful than it even usually is,

152
00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,360
Speaker 4: which is pretty stressful to start with. So Kathleen, thank

153
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,000
Speaker 4: you so much for coming on the show.

154
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,800
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me Sarah, and.

155
00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,800
Speaker 4: I understand that you previously were a best of Both

156
00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:43,560
Speaker 4: Worlds listener.

157
00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:44,520
Speaker 3: Is that true?

158
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,720
Speaker 5: Yes, I was just saying that it is my one

159
00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,800
Speaker 5: of my personal accountability tools for paying attention to where

160
00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:53,960
Speaker 5: my time is going and what's important to me.

161
00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,520
Speaker 1: It's always a good reminder.

162
00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,599
Speaker 4: That makes me so happy and honestly, like I promise,

163
00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,039
Speaker 4: we didn't plant that. This was a really serendipitous and

164
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,440
Speaker 4: awesome and sometimes our paths collide like that. So Kathleen,

165
00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,400
Speaker 4: your book hit me at a really at the right time.

166
00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,240
Speaker 4: I think someone had recommended it to me like a

167
00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:11,720
Speaker 4: year prior, but then when I picked it up.

168
00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:12,520
Speaker 3: I really needed it.

169
00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,320
Speaker 4: Who did you write this book for and why did

170
00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,120
Speaker 4: you write Everything isn't terrible?

171
00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:22,800
Speaker 5: Well, it's for humans, but in particular I think two

172
00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,760
Speaker 5: groups of folks. For folks who just want to know

173
00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,280
Speaker 5: what a therapist is thinking, what's the lens they're using,

174
00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,560
Speaker 5: what's a theory that's guiding them as they think about

175
00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:38,800
Speaker 5: people's challenges in everyday terms. It's accessible to anybody. And

176
00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,240
Speaker 5: then also folks who are just really hard on themselves

177
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:47,240
Speaker 5: about being stressed, being anxious, letting their sort of automatic

178
00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,720
Speaker 5: behaviors get the best of them. And my goal is

179
00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,000
Speaker 5: to give people a way of thinking about themselves that's

180
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,679
Speaker 5: a little bit kinder, a little bit and more able

181
00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,080
Speaker 5: to help people see how their behaviors exist in the

182
00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:04,720
Speaker 5: natural world as well, where they're not necessarily dysfunctional or

183
00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,400
Speaker 5: diagnosis or something that needs to be fixed. It's just

184
00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,320
Speaker 5: humans doing human things. Because some people, I think can

185
00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,400
Speaker 5: be harder on themselves about this stuff than others.

186
00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,760
Speaker 4: And I'm guessing was a lot of it glean from

187
00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,840
Speaker 4: your personal practice because you're are you still actively seeing clients?

188
00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:23,320
Speaker 5: I am, you know, but you have to be very

189
00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,680
Speaker 5: careful when you write about people you don't want to

190
00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:30,160
Speaker 5: tell the exact story because that doesn't respect their confidentiality.

191
00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:30,920
Speaker 1: So it's an.

192
00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:35,040
Speaker 5: Interesting challenge of combining a couple different people who have

193
00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,800
Speaker 5: similar stories, but then changing the details so that nobody's

194
00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,320
Speaker 5: going to go, wait a second, she's writing about me,

195
00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,240
Speaker 5: or she's writing about my sister, you know, but that

196
00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,840
Speaker 5: still honors the truth behind it. So yeah, it's I

197
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,320
Speaker 5: love telling these stories and the challenges that people are

198
00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,200
Speaker 5: up against because we see ourselves in these stories as well.

199
00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:57,520
Speaker 1: I think.

200
00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,560
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, when you read something like this, you're like,

201
00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,800
Speaker 4: we people are much more alike than we are different,

202
00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,160
Speaker 4: I think, and reading something like you sharing these different

203
00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,280
Speaker 4: vignettes that have so many common threads, I think underlines

204
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,840
Speaker 4: that really well. Now, one of the underpinnings of your

205
00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:16,520
Speaker 4: work and that you talk about a little bit at

206
00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,320
Speaker 4: the beginning of the book that I was not familiar

207
00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,720
Speaker 4: with is Bowen theory. Can you tell our listeners what

208
00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,240
Speaker 4: that is? And to me it struck me a slightly

209
00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,240
Speaker 4: different but sort of similar to what I know of

210
00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,000
Speaker 4: as cognitive behavioral therapy, So I guess maybe explain what

211
00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,319
Speaker 4: it is and maybe some of the similarities and differences.

212
00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,360
Speaker 5: Yes, I'll give you the very brief version, even though

213
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:38,200
Speaker 5: I could talk about.

214
00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:38,480
Speaker 1: This all day.

215
00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:43,160
Speaker 5: So Murray Bowen, who is a psychiatrist, was a psychiatrist

216
00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,640
Speaker 5: who really wanted a way of thinking about humans that

217
00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,280
Speaker 5: connected them to evolution in the natural world.

218
00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:51,240
Speaker 1: Back in the day.

219
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,400
Speaker 5: Every psychiatrist is trained in psychoanalysis, right, they're learning about Freid.

220
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,440
Speaker 5: That's their way of thinking about things. And he wasn't

221
00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,120
Speaker 5: really on board with that. He said, you know, I

222
00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,200
Speaker 5: don't think humans are these mystical creatures that we kind

223
00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,800
Speaker 5: of portray them to be. I think a lot of

224
00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,840
Speaker 5: what we do you might see chimpanzees doing, or bees

225
00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 5: or prairie dogs. You know, we are social creatures and

226
00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,720
Speaker 5: we operate in ways together in groups to help keep

227
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,480
Speaker 5: things steady. So what if there were a way of

228
00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:26,120
Speaker 5: thinking about our anxious behaviors not as maladaptive, but actually

229
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,280
Speaker 5: as quite useful and adaptive for better or worse. And

230
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,600
Speaker 5: if people could see themselves in this way, would it

231
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,800
Speaker 5: help them maybe calm down a little bit or get

232
00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,679
Speaker 5: a little bit more objectivity when they're thinking about their family,

233
00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,280
Speaker 5: you know, or their work, And they could say, well,

234
00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,040
Speaker 5: what's my part in all this? What do I want

235
00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,760
Speaker 5: to do differently, Can I be a little bit more

236
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,120
Speaker 5: of a grown up in this situation and that could

237
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,400
Speaker 5: be useful for people. And so he had this idea

238
00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,040
Speaker 5: that you could sort of develop a sign of human

239
00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,920
Speaker 5: behavior by looking at the family, and so he was

240
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,679
Speaker 5: one of the fathers of family psychotherapy. Although I use

241
00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,120
Speaker 5: bowe and theory with individuals as well, it's not just

242
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,720
Speaker 5: a type of family therapy. I think there are definitely

243
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:19,600
Speaker 5: some similarities to CBT. I think CBT is very technique focus,

244
00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,320
Speaker 5: which I think is one of the reasons it's quite popular.

245
00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,079
Speaker 5: It's something that people can kind of take and practice

246
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,559
Speaker 5: and use that's very practical, whereas I think with bow

247
00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,599
Speaker 5: and theory, not that it's not practical, but it's a

248
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,680
Speaker 5: lot of more as a lifelong endeavor. This is a

249
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:42,000
Speaker 5: way of thinking about human relationships. It's not the way

250
00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,360
Speaker 5: or the only way, but it's a way of thinking

251
00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,240
Speaker 5: about human relationships and how people can maybe manage their

252
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,240
Speaker 5: anxiety a little bit more thoughtfully when they go home

253
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,760
Speaker 5: for Thanksgiving or when their kid is losing it right.

254
00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,400
Speaker 5: And that's been really helpful for me personally, and that's

255
00:11:58,400 --> 00:11:59,720
Speaker 5: why I use it in my practice.

256
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,680
Speaker 4: And there is a lot of discussion speaking of going

257
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,760
Speaker 4: home for Thanksgiving, which actually that's timely too, because this

258
00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,240
Speaker 4: episode is going to air probably like late October and

259
00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,440
Speaker 4: the holidays are approaching, so actually this is quite timely.

260
00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,359
Speaker 4: You talk a lot about the importance of those primary

261
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,679
Speaker 4: and oldest relationships, like the one we have with our

262
00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,240
Speaker 4: siblings and our parents, And I did find that interesting

263
00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,959
Speaker 4: because that did differ from a lot of other kind

264
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,880
Speaker 4: of books in this realm that I've looked at before.

265
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,680
Speaker 4: Why do you and why does Bowen theory consider that

266
00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,440
Speaker 4: it's so important? And how can people work on those challenges?

267
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,520
Speaker 4: Like what would you say to people already thinking and

268
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,679
Speaker 4: spiraling about maybe having more of that family time coming up?

269
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:39,440
Speaker 1: Sure?

270
00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,680
Speaker 5: Well, I always love to ask people, how long can

271
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,280
Speaker 5: you be with your family before you regress to your

272
00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:45,079
Speaker 5: teenage self?

273
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:46,920
Speaker 1: You know, is it twenty four hours?

274
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:47,600
Speaker 3: Forty eight?

275
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,199
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a lot less than.

276
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,680
Speaker 5: These forces, these sort of predictable ways of relating to

277
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,120
Speaker 5: each other. You can see them in any relationship. But

278
00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,720
Speaker 5: the closer you are to somebody, the more automatic they're

279
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,719
Speaker 5: going to be. You know, I'm an overfunctioner. I love

280
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,120
Speaker 5: to do things for people that they can do for themselves.

281
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,560
Speaker 5: I'm a helper, That's why I have the job that

282
00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,520
Speaker 5: I do, right, But if I go home, that is

283
00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,960
Speaker 5: sort of magnified or amplified even more so. Right, I

284
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,480
Speaker 5: am more likely to do something for my dad when

285
00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,720
Speaker 5: I don't necessarily need to. You're just more allergic to

286
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,240
Speaker 5: the people you're often the closest to. And it's not

287
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,640
Speaker 5: that those have to be the relationships you work on,

288
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,000
Speaker 5: but I think people find that they get sort of

289
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,520
Speaker 5: more mileage out of them because they're a little bit

290
00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,800
Speaker 5: tougher to think and act for yourself in the middle

291
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:43,360
Speaker 5: of all that togetherness. So people often find it useful,

292
00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,200
Speaker 5: you know, if they can go home for a holiday

293
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,040
Speaker 5: or spend some time with family and kind of be

294
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 5: like a naturalist or an anthropologist. Can you watch what

295
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,480
Speaker 5: people do when the anxiety gets dialed up and then

296
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,960
Speaker 5: all of a sudden you're curious about it, right, And

297
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,640
Speaker 5: that is very different than being just frustrated by people

298
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:02,840
Speaker 5: or annoyed by them.

299
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,040
Speaker 1: And so if.

300
00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,640
Speaker 5: People can kind of put on that researcher hat, I

301
00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,240
Speaker 5: think they often find that it's it's a little easier

302
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,480
Speaker 5: to be interested in people than maybe you usually are.

303
00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,200
Speaker 5: So that's the assignment I usually give folks when they

304
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,440
Speaker 5: go home for the holidays.

305
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,760
Speaker 4: So fascinating and probably useful for a lot of us.

306
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,720
Speaker 4: I love that, And you know, there's like an element

307
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,480
Speaker 4: of mindfulness of that, right, like because you're like, oh,

308
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,200
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna like observe. But also I feel like

309
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,120
Speaker 4: hearing you say that, there's like a self compassionate piece

310
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,440
Speaker 4: as well, because you're like, well, this is hard and

311
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,400
Speaker 4: we do regress, and we're animals and we have these

312
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,040
Speaker 4: social challenges and like maybe that's okay or normal, and like,

313
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,600
Speaker 4: how do I make the best of it versus this

314
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:42,360
Speaker 4: is all a failure.

315
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,880
Speaker 3: Everyone sucks, you know, the end.

316
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:46,800
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

317
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,280
Speaker 5: Just to give you a quick example, I can think

318
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,440
Speaker 5: of a couple of years ago. I was at my

319
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,800
Speaker 5: grandmother's house and this is you know, she was in

320
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,880
Speaker 5: her nineties, and I'd lost my cell phone and I

321
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,120
Speaker 5: just casually mentioned that I couldn't find it, and of

322
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,520
Speaker 5: course everyone immediately jumps up and is like diving under

323
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 5: couches and anxiously looking for my phone. And I'm just going, guys,

324
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,080
Speaker 5: like I got it. I can find it.

325
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,400
Speaker 1: I'm capable, you know. But I think bow and Theory.

326
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,360
Speaker 5: Was useful to in that moment, because I could go, Okay,

327
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,600
Speaker 5: here we go. I'm even mildly distressed, and everyone starts

328
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,680
Speaker 5: to try and calm me down and overfunction for me. Right,

329
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,880
Speaker 5: And that's really interesting to pay attention to.

330
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,080
Speaker 1: That's a different way.

331
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,480
Speaker 5: Of thinking about it than oh, my goodness, what is

332
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,760
Speaker 5: with these people? They will not give me a break?

333
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:34,200
Speaker 4: I love it?

334
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,080
Speaker 3: No, so interesting and so timely.

335
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,800
Speaker 4: Well, how about flipping the script from thinking about our

336
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,280
Speaker 4: own parents and going home to thinking about our parenting,

337
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:48,960
Speaker 4: which often brings up plenty of anxiety and self judgment,

338
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,000
Speaker 4: Anxiety about how our kids are turning out, Anxiety about

339
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,760
Speaker 4: are we doing this right? Anxiety about like am I

340
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,240
Speaker 4: giving my kids the tools they need to succeed in

341
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,360
Speaker 4: this scary new world? Or whatever people are thinking? So,

342
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,960
Speaker 4: how are some ways that you help people? I don't

343
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,000
Speaker 4: think there was a parenting chapter specifically. I'm trying to

344
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,440
Speaker 4: think there was, like dating relationships. But I'm sure you

345
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,240
Speaker 4: work with many clients that face these things, and you

346
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,440
Speaker 4: are a parent yourself, I believe, so I am give

347
00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,200
Speaker 4: us some tools for those common challenges.

348
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:22,160
Speaker 1: Yes.

349
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 5: Well, when I was writing this book, I had just

350
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,840
Speaker 5: had my daughter, so I felt a little presumptuous to

351
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,800
Speaker 5: include a parentic chapter. I said, let's give us a

352
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,600
Speaker 5: little time, But yes, I do work with a lot

353
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,160
Speaker 5: of parents and grandparents also, which is a lot of fun.

354
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,280
Speaker 5: And my next book we'll have more about parenting. But

355
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,920
Speaker 5: we're up against the culture. We live in a child

356
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:46,320
Speaker 5: focused society. So much of our culture encourage us us

357
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,600
Speaker 5: to put a very anxious focus on our kids, and

358
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,040
Speaker 5: I just want to acknowledge that that's what we're up

359
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:55,840
Speaker 5: against as parents. And what does it take for a

360
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 5: person to make a project out of themselves as a parent.

361
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:01,720
Speaker 5: One of my colleagues who was in bow In Theories,

362
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,000
Speaker 5: while her name is doctor Jenny Brown, she uses this

363
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:05,919
Speaker 5: statement which I find really useful. You know, how do

364
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,680
Speaker 5: you make a project out of yourself versus your kid?

365
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,439
Speaker 5: How do you manage your own distress when your child

366
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,320
Speaker 5: is upset? Can you develop your own principles as a

367
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,919
Speaker 5: parent versus just grabbing a bunch of books? Resources and

368
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,840
Speaker 5: books can be certainly helpful, but also what's your own

369
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,800
Speaker 5: thinking about what it is you're trying to do here?

370
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,640
Speaker 5: That might change over time, That's okay, but so often

371
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,000
Speaker 5: we just don't take that time to sit down and

372
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,679
Speaker 5: ask ourselves, what am I trying to do here? What

373
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:43,120
Speaker 5: is within my control? Can I see that there are

374
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,959
Speaker 5: it's not just on me. There are things my child

375
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,359
Speaker 5: will do that invite my over focus and my overfunctioning

376
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,439
Speaker 5: for them. And that's also just what humans do. And

377
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:58,480
Speaker 5: so it's not about blaming any one person in particular.

378
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,080
Speaker 5: We're pretty hard on moms. So how do we see

379
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,679
Speaker 5: the whole system working? Can you think about what you

380
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,639
Speaker 5: do when the child is fighting with the other parent

381
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:10,919
Speaker 5: or they're having an argument and they pull you into

382
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,760
Speaker 5: that triangle? How do you manage yourself in that? You know,

383
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,840
Speaker 5: that's a lot of what I'm helping think about is

384
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 5: helping parents think about what's their part in this whole

385
00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 5: system and can they be a little bit more thoughtful

386
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,400
Speaker 5: and how useful that is for a kid to have

387
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,520
Speaker 5: our kids to have a parent who is trying to

388
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,959
Speaker 5: hang in there and manage their anxiety in a more

389
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:39,280
Speaker 5: responsible way. That does a lot more than any strategy

390
00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:40,960
Speaker 5: or parenting technique.

391
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,440
Speaker 4: And probably certainly more than looking to the external as

392
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,440
Speaker 4: to like where are the perfect examples that I need

393
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 4: to be a quote keeping up with. So, yeah, it's

394
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,320
Speaker 4: a great reminder that the internal focus probably is the

395
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,239
Speaker 4: place to start and linger a little bit rather than

396
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,159
Speaker 4: the outside. Well, we're going to take a quick break

397
00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,639
Speaker 4: and talk a little bit about work and news and

398
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:14,920
Speaker 4: some other stuff, so we'll be right back. All right,

399
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,320
Speaker 4: we are back, and I'm here still with doctor Kathleen Smith,

400
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,000
Speaker 4: and we are going to talk a little bit about

401
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,680
Speaker 4: the workplace, since this is best of both worlds, and

402
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:24,760
Speaker 4: we've covered some parenting stuff, so now it's time to

403
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,640
Speaker 4: talk about work. And I love this section of the book.

404
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,080
Speaker 4: There are a lot of like specific examples. There's even

405
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,560
Speaker 4: a whole chapter dedicated to your terrible boss. I am

406
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 4: not saying that applies to me or has applied to me,

407
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,480
Speaker 4: but can be very useful info for people in different scenarios.

408
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 4: So and difficult co workers too, all these sticky things

409
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:48,359
Speaker 4: at work. So what are kind of the common things

410
00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,159
Speaker 4: that you tend to recommend when somebody is suffering in

411
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:52,160
Speaker 4: their job environment.

412
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,359
Speaker 5: Well, a lot of the work that I do helps

413
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 5: people look at the patterns, you know, what are the.

414
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,520
Speaker 1: Quick ways that you.

415
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 5: Try and keep things calm or that other people try

416
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,920
Speaker 5: and keep things calm in a workplace. And often you

417
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 5: will see these same patterns that you see in the family. Right,

418
00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 5: Maybe you know I mentioned overfunctioning. Maybe there's some people

419
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,760
Speaker 5: who are really big overfunctioning for others and they're burning out.

420
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,760
Speaker 5: They're taking on responsibilities that aren't theres you know, another

421
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 5: a common pattern would be triangles. Right, So the more

422
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,160
Speaker 5: stress there is in an office or workplace, the more

423
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 5: triangles you're going to see. And just a simple definition,

424
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 5: a triangle is like when there's tension between two people,

425
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 5: you pull in a third person. Maybe you complain to

426
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 5: them or vent to them, or you gossip, or you

427
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,560
Speaker 5: use them to deliver the message to your boss that

428
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 5: you don't want to deliver. Right, And triangles aren't necessarily

429
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 5: good or bad, but I think it's useful to pay

430
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,639
Speaker 5: attention to how we use other people at work to

431
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 5: sort of circumvent or avoid working on the relationships that

432
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 5: are a little bit more tense or anxious. When do

433
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 5: I need to have and Boe and theory, what's called

434
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,880
Speaker 5: having a little more self? You know, when do I

435
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 5: need to have a little more self? And how I

436
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 5: respond to this person who's kind of rubbing me the

437
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,879
Speaker 5: wrong way or generating some tension. You know, I'm not

438
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 5: saying you always have to move closer to people. Sometimes

439
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 5: the opposite is true. But you know, how do you

440
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 5: not be one more sort of cog in the system

441
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,640
Speaker 5: who's just anxiously passing the anxiety onto the next person.

442
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 5: And that goes back to what I just said about parenting, Right,

443
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 5: Can I manage this in a little bit more of

444
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 5: a responsible way? Maybe that means being honest with people.

445
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 5: Maybe that means saying what I can and cannot do,

446
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 5: rather than pretending like I can do it and then

447
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 5: trying to.

448
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 1: Bail out later.

449
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,359
Speaker 5: Or maybe I don't go home and vent to my

450
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 5: spouse and then I feel good enough about it that

451
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:54,439
Speaker 5: I just go back in there the next day and

452
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 5: do the same thing right. And so often at work

453
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 5: people really get caught up in being over responsible with others.

454
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,640
Speaker 5: We're very focused on other people's immaturity and what they're

455
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 5: doing wrong. And I'm sure they give us plenty of examples.

456
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 1: But going back to that.

457
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 5: Question of who am I trying to be here? How

458
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 5: do I be responsible for myself in this anxious environment?

459
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,120
Speaker 5: And what is not my responsibility? I think getting really

460
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,679
Speaker 5: clear about that. Maybe even making a list can be

461
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,880
Speaker 5: useful for folks. I mean those are just a few

462
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 5: things I think of with work.

463
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 3: No, that's great.

464
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 4: I mean thinking about the what is not my responsibility

465
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 4: makes me think of an episode we did a while

466
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 4: back on like non promotable activities and how you know,

467
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,439
Speaker 4: women in particular face a lot of pressure sometimes to

468
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,119
Speaker 4: do those things or to put on certain appearances. But

469
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 4: getting at the core of like what am I here for,

470
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 4: what am I trying to achieve could be really helpful

471
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:58,199
Speaker 4: and probably healthier than the alternative. So I like that,

472
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 4: all right, the new cycle this is a timely one

473
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 4: I did. We did not know there would be so

474
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 4: much going on in the news when we scheduled this interview.

475
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 4: My everything isn't terrible had nothing to do with the

476
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 4: news and had to do with like hormones and stuff.

477
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 4: But I will say the stuff going on, and if

478
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 4: you go to New York Times dot com, ORCNN dot com,

479
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 4: it's very anxiety provoking to many right now, so many

480
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,239
Speaker 4: acute conflicts going on, and then there's also kind of

481
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 4: like those longer term nagging thoughts of despair that a

482
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 4: lot of people have, And I feel like some of

483
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 4: those voices are getting appropriately louder and louder, and yet

484
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 4: we still have to function, we still get to live.

485
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 4: And I thought this book is really great at providing

486
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 4: some perspective and as people are struggling with this right now,

487
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 4: and I know many who are, what are some strategies

488
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 4: we can bring to the table in processing all of

489
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 4: this stuff coming at us? Yeah?

490
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 5: Well, what's useful for me in using Bowen theory is

491
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 5: this idea that you see the same patterns in society

492
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,120
Speaker 5: that you would see in an anxious family. It's they're

493
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 5: a little harder to spot sometimes, but you know what

494
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,360
Speaker 5: people do when you dial up the anxiety. I mean

495
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 5: some of these things I've already just mentioned, right, they

496
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 5: become overinvolved with how everyone else is responding to a

497
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 5: crisis or a tragedy or a challenge.

498
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: Right.

499
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 5: It's easy to get focused on other people's behaviors, right.

500
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 5: Or you might distance and not want to have anything

501
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 5: to do with at all. People do that in families too, right.

502
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 5: Or you might feel so helpless that you just anxiously

503
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 5: borrow what somebody else is doing or how they're responding

504
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 5: without really thinking about it for yourself, and that sort

505
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 5: of group think process.

506
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: Right.

507
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 5: So, to me, what a person can do is ask

508
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 5: two questions and I mentioned these just a minute ago,

509
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 5: But how do I want to be responsible for myself

510
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 5: right now? That could be I'm going to sit down

511
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 5: and learn about this topic, or I'm going to figure

512
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 5: out what I believe, or I'm going to put my

513
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 5: phone down or out of the room at night. And

514
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 5: that is one way of being responsible for myself, because

515
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 5: we cannot respond to complex problems when we've been doom

516
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 5: scrolling and are anxious and overwhelmed. Right, And the second

517
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 5: question is how do I want to be responsible to others?

518
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 5: Note that's different than being responsible for others. We're not

519
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 5: responsible for other people except maybe our children if they're miners.

520
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 5: But being responsible to people is, you know, how do

521
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 5: I want to show up in these important relationships or

522
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 5: in relationships with people I don't know or have never met,

523
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 5: or across the world.

524
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 2: Right.

525
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 5: I think that those are two useful questions for people.

526
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 5: And I think another thing people can do is stay

527
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 5: connected with people who are solving complex problems. Over the

528
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 5: long haul, you know, you'll get a lot of people

529
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 5: attacking the problem often, so much of what we do

530
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 5: is about managing our own anxiety than actually helping somebody

531
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 5: or contributing to some of these big problems in the world.

532
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 5: But there are these people, and I have these people

533
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 5: in my life who seem to kind of chug along,

534
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 5: you know, they don't seem to be as affected by

535
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 5: the rest of us because they're playing the long game, right,

536
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 5: They're able to kind of manage their anxiety a little

537
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 5: bit more thoughtfully about some of these hard things. And

538
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 5: so I think having those relationships with people who've managed

539
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 5: to do that in one way or another is really valuable.

540
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 5: So I think that's a question people can ask themselves,

541
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 5: who do I know who's doing something about this or

542
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 5: who's really thinking about this? And is that a useful

543
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 5: inspiration for me when I get wrapped up in calming

544
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 5: things down as quickly as possible or just avoiding everything

545
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 5: because it feels too overwhelming, and not mistaking help for

546
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 5: managing your anxiety. You know that to me, that's the

547
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 5: difference between reacting and responding. Reacting acting quickly certainly has

548
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 5: its place, and it's very important in some situations, but

549
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 5: there is the long game too, and so I think

550
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 5: it's useful to not lose sight of that.

551
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 4: That makes sense, I mean, so reacting would be kind

552
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 4: of like that nervous energy where you are just kind

553
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 4: of jumping to something. Maybe reading a heated comment section

554
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 4: versus responding would be a more thoughtful and measured response.

555
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 4: Actually thinking of how you could help others?

556
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: Does that?

557
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 3: Do I have that kind of right?

558
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 4: Yeah?

559
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 5: I mean getting mad at people can calm you down.

560
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 5: Kind of sounds paradoxical, but it actually focusing on other

561
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 5: people to blame is a great way to manage your

562
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 5: own anxiety, but there is a heavy cost to it.

563
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 5: We often burn out or feel like we've done something

564
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 5: when maybe we really haven't.

565
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 4: Oh interesting, So with all this said, and with all

566
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 4: the stressors in our environment right now, what do you

567
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 4: think about professional help? When is the moment or what

568
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 4: are signs that suggest that a person should be seeking

569
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 4: out a professional in addition to just reading wonderful books

570
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 4: and following those strategies. And I know, as straightforward as

571
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 4: it may seem, it can be hard to find a

572
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 4: therapist who's a fit. So any tips on finding someone

573
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 4: are welcome, because even I, who I feel like have

574
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 4: tons of resource, have found this challenging in the past.

575
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think above all, I'm thinking of two things.

576
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 5: One is just somebody who's really upfront about explaining the

577
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 5: theory or theories that they use and seems to be

578
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 5: honest about whether will be useful for you or not,

579
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 5: because you know, I get a lot of emails or

580
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 5: calls from folks who are very focused on relieving a

581
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 5: particular symptom or learning a particular technique, and I tell them,

582
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 5: there are people who do that, but that's not one

583
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 5: of the things I do with people. Here's how my

584
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 5: work works and what the theory I use looks like,

585
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 5: because often I think sometimes therapist will not be upfront

586
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 5: about that. And so just can you get somebody who's

587
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 5: really clear about what they do with people and what

588
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 5: the limitations are. I think that will be really helpful

589
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 5: for you, so you're not going to waste your.

590
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: Time or their time, because not everybody is a good fit.

591
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 5: And the second thing is I think somebody who is

592
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 5: able to manage themselves in a responsible way, right. I'm

593
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 5: always trying. I fail at this often, you know, I'm

594
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 5: always trying to manage my own anxiety so that a

595
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 5: person can do good thinking right. And often when in

596
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 5: stressful times, you know, even helpers like myself will become

597
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 5: overinvolved or want to fix things as quickly as possible.

598
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 5: So I think getting a sense of can a person

599
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 5: manage themselves well when I'm bringing my distress to the room,

600
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 5: you know, versus just trying to kind of keep me

601
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 5: happy and keep me calm. That can feel good in

602
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 5: the moment. But I think if you're really looking to

603
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 5: kind of grown your own capacity for some of these things,

604
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 5: having a therapist who's kind of able to handle their

605
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 5: own stuff and their own anxiety, their own reactions in

606
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 5: a mature way is helpful. And I think you can

607
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 5: get a sense of that early.

608
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: On with folks. Those are the two things I think of.

609
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't I think if someone is thinking

610
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 5: about getting professional help and you know, they should pursue it,

611
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 5: and if it isn't serving you, then you can stop.

612
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 5: But I think asking people if it's affordable, you know,

613
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 5: do you have a sliding scale? Do you have other

614
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 5: more affordable options you can recommend? I mean that is

615
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 5: in our code of ethics to give you that in

616
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 5: so you should make people do their job if you're

617
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 5: worried about the cost, because it's our job to connect you,

618
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 5: connect you with folks who can help or help in

619
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 5: the way that we can and are sort of ethically

620
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 5: bound to do. So I always encourage people to kind

621
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 5: of push a little bit and get that information from

622
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 5: folks because that's part of our job.

623
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 3: That is great. I love that. I love that permission.

624
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 4: So yes, if you end up finding someone but they're

625
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 4: inaccessible for some reason, that's a great resource.

626
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 3: Ask around who else?

627
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 5: Then?

628
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 3: Who else can they recommend? So Love of the Week?

629
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: You want me to go first?

630
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, you had it ready.

631
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

632
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 5: So I read a lot of nonfiction, but I'm also

633
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 5: a really big romance novel reader. I know romance is

634
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 5: very popular these days. It's exploding in the publishing industry.

635
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 5: So right now I'm reading a wonderful historical romance called

636
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 5: Knockout by Sarah McLain.

637
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: Maybe a lot of folks have heard of her.

638
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 5: She does a podcast called Faded Mates, which is about

639
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 5: romance novels.

640
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: Which is wonderful.

641
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 5: So I always enjoy having that escape from reading science

642
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 5: books and other things, and so that's what I'm reading

643
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 5: right now.

644
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 3: I love it.

645
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 4: I'm going to stick with books too, since you started

646
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 4: with that theme. I don't think i've ever read anything

647
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 4: by Anne Patchett. I didn't like, and I'm just about

648
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 4: to finish Tom Lake and I loved it and it

649
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 4: was what I needed right now.

650
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 3: So do you want kind of like a I mean.

651
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 4: I'm not going to say there's nothing stressful or traumatic

652
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 4: that happens in the book, but overall it's a very

653
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 4: calming read, as I find many of her books to

654
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 4: be for me.

655
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 3: So awesome, great, great reading.

656
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 5: I was in a New York a couple of weeks

657
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 5: ago and a bookstore and I heard this voice that

658
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 5: I recognized and I turned around and it was Anne Patch.

659
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, it's like I've heard this woman's voice before.

660
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: And then I didn't go up. I was little too starstruck.

661
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 3: But oh, that is so cool.

662
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 4: I've been to her bookstore, but she wasn't there, for

663
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 4: at least she was hiding if she was there. I mean,

664
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 4: I bought a signed copy of a book though.

665
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 3: That was fun.

666
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 4: Anyway, Well, this was lovely. Tell our listeners where they

667
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 4: can find you, and also what you're working on, because

668
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 4: we might have to have you back on in the future.

669
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, people can find me on substack. My newsletter is

670
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 5: the Anxious Overachiever and I send a couple free ones

671
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 5: out a month of folks.

672
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: It's a great resource if you.

673
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 5: Want to learn more about Bowen theory as well. And

674
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 5: my next book is called True to You, How to

675
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 5: Stop Pleasing others and Start being Yourself, and that comes

676
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 5: out in July, which feels like a million years from now,

677
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 5: but it really is with Saint Martin's Essentials.

678
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 4: So oh, that's awesome. That sounds like a wonderful topic

679
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 4: as well. So I will definitely be checking that out

680
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 4: and we'll remind our listeners of it when it comes

681
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 4: out as well.

682
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for coming on.

683
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: Thanks, Sarah was fun.

684
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 4: All right, Well we are back and we have a

685
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 4: listener question about some school chy stuff.

686
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: Hi.

687
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 4: That's been kind of like a theme in our questions lately,

688
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 4: but this one's a little bit different. Do you want

689
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 4: to paraphrase this one?

690
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: Ah? Sure.

691
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 2: So this listener, who lives in Canada, where registration opens

692
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 2: in January for kindergarten, is debating which school to enroll

693
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: her child in. They have some public choice options, so

694
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 2: that's exciting. One school is four blocks away from her house,

695
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 2: but it is far from her child's daycare center. She

696
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: says that means we would have to enroll him in

697
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,439
Speaker 2: multiple childcare programs because they'd be looking to get after

698
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: school care at the place where he's going. The upside

699
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 2: with a school that is closed is when he's a

700
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: little bit older, say you know, sixth grade or so,

701
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 2: he'd be able to walk home. They also have an

702
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: option to go to an elementary school that is a

703
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 2: five minute drive away, right next to his current daycare center,

704
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: and the school in the center would be able to

705
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 2: take care of all his child care, so doing the

706
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 2: aftercare there. She also says that it would be more

707
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: streamlined because a lot of his current group at the

708
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 2: daycare will be going to this school. Adding to this,

709
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 2: her child is on the autism spectrum and they have

710
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: some slightly better supports at the slightly farther away school

711
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 2: for that. However, she's worried that it is further there

712
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 2: will be you know, no way to get him back

713
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 2: without a driver. I guess if they're further away, and

714
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: they don't know what their work situations will be like

715
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: in future years, So she doesn't know if she's thinking

716
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 2: too short term by choosing the school that is close

717
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: to his daycare versus one that is close to the house.

718
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 1: So, Sarah, what do.

719
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 4: You think, Yeah, I think she should pick the one

720
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 4: that's slightly farther away. And I felt like that instantly

721
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 4: because I thought, the only benefit of staying close has

722
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,399
Speaker 4: to do with potential benefits in many, many years for.

723
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 2: The most part, because he won't be able to walk

724
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 2: home by himself for a couple of years at least.

725
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 4: You right, And you also like, but if you change

726
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 4: jobs between now and then, and then the whole thing's

727
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 4: in moot point, and then you made a sacrifice but

728
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 4: potentially a lesser environment for him for this convenience later on,

729
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 4: that didn't even happen. So to me, the benefits are

730
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 4: too long range, and I would instead go with what

731
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 4: makes the most sense now. And the fact that you

732
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 4: mentioned even like the fact that for him having some

733
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 4: special needs and the support being even a little bit

734
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 4: better reputation wise, it probably makes sense to go with that.

735
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 3: So's that's the way I would lean.

736
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 2: What about you, Yeah, I was leaning for that as well.

737
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that it's wonderful to think long term,

738
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 2: but I also think that because so much in life

739
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 2: can change. I mean, one of the phrases that we

740
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 2: use around here is plan tightly and then plan lightly.

741
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: You can pretty much see the next two years or

742
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: so and with your kid's life and your job and

743
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 2: things like that. Past that, I mean, who knows. You

744
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 2: can get a different job, your partner could get a

745
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 2: different job, your job could move, your job could become

746
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: fully remote, you know, you could a new school could

747
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: open that's like excellent for your child, and that's totally

748
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 2: different place, and you want to move him to that

749
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: or who even knows right so you can do this.

750
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 2: I don't know how Canada works. If it's possible to

751
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 2: change your enrollment at some point, you know, if you

752
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: do decide, and I would imagine you know, in the

753
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: United States, especially if you do have a child with

754
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: special needs, you have certain rights that you can have

755
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 2: hearings and things like that. Even if it wasn't possible

756
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: to easily move a kid, you might be able to

757
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: have that happen. I don't know how Canada works, but

758
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 2: just saying that, given that you think the school is

759
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: going to be better for his needs now it's more convenient. Now,

760
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 2: just take that. If that changes, you might be able

761
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 2: to move in the future and deal with that, then

762
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 2: love it.

763
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm surprised I'm coming out against planning ahead, but

764
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 4: in this particular case.

765
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: And don't think against the one that's closer. But it's

766
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: not logistically more convenient now. It's just that it will

767
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 2: be more logistically convenient in a few years when he

768
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 2: can walk home on his own, so that's a different matter. Yeah,

769
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 2: all right, Well, this has been best of both worlds.

770
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 2: Sarah has been interviewing doctor Kathleen Smith about how everything

771
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: isn't terrible and how we can maybe come up with

772
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 2: some coping strategies when life seems a little bit overwhelming.

773
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,240
Speaker 2: But we're not necessarily dealing with, you know, clinical anxiety

774
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 2: or depression. People are just feeling a little bit glum

775
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 2: about life in general. So lots of helpful tips there,

776
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: lots of helpful tips there. Sorry, yes, I can't talk

777
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 2: this morning. We will be back next week with more

778
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 2: on making work and life fit together.

779
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:35,240
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.

780
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 4: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com

781
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 4: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can.

782
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has

783
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 2: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us

784
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 2: next time for more on making work and life work together,