WEBVTT - How dangerous is nuclear waste? 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:12.680 When I was young, kids from neighboring towns would sometimes 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:15.400 asked me if I glowed in the dark. It was 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.439 probably because I grew up in Los Alamos, New Mexico, 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:22.880 home of the Atomic mom and secret plutonium facilities. Those 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.200 kids were kind of joking, but also kind of not 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:30.240 They didn't really understand what nuclear meant. What they knew 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.519 came from movies and The Simpsons, where nuclear waste was 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:37.520 a glowing green goo that gave fish a third eyeball. Well, 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:39.960 I'm a big fan of the Simpsons, but I'm here 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.200 to tell you that I don't glow in the dark, 0:00:42.400 --> 0:01:01.360 and I only have two eyeballs. Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:04.520 a particle physicist and a professor at u C Irvine, 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:08.680 and I sincerely hope that my research never kills anyone. 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:11.480 Both of my parents worked at Los Alumos National Labs, 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.600 and I never knew the details of their projects, but 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:17.360 I knew that they were involved in the weapons programs, 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.959 so I never visited their offices or even saw the 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.160 front door of their building because it was all in 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.000 the part of the lab that required a Q clearance 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:29.880 to enter around town. That was called working behind the fence. 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:32.880 They had their reasons for deciding to contribute to our 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:36.839 nuclear arsenal, which are pointed at cities and threatened civilian 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.240 populations with horrible death. But I decided to work on 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:43.520 problems that were more abstract, less likely to put new 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:47.040 tools of mass destruction into the hands of politicians. It 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.040 means that questions that I answer in my research are 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:53.760 further removed from humanity. They're less likely to kill anyone, 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.280 but also less likely to improve your quality of life 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.360 in the short term by developing new technology gs or 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.480 more powerful toasters. Of course, I think there's inherent value 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.720 in basic research, you know, knowledge for knowledge's sake. We 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:10.040 do fundamental research for the same reason that we build parks. 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:12.240 We do it because it's nice, not because we think 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.680 it's going to lead to a faster graphics processor in 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.239 quarter two of three. But we also know that fundamental 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:22.480 research is the best way to stumble on transformational technologies, 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:26.079 just not on the schedule of quarterly product reports. So 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.520 welcome to the podcast. Daniel and Jorge explain the Universe, 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.840 in which we dive deep into those fundamental questions about 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:35.520 the nature of the universe, what's it made of? On 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:38.680 the smallest scale. How did it come to be this way? 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:42.880 How big is the universe? How small is the smallest thing? 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:45.640 We seek to understand the basic nature of the universe 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.960 so that we can ask even deeper, more philosophical questions 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:52.600 like why this way and not some other way. My 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.040 friend and co host Jorge him is on a break, 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:57.120 so I'm going to do a deep dive into an 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.799 area of physics that is close to my heart and 0:02:59.880 --> 0:03:03.800 my background, not because it answers deep questions about the universe, 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:07.320 but because it has so much potential to improve or 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:10.840 damage the lives of humanity. It's a wonderful example of 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.640 the power and danger of putting scientific knowledge to work 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.840 for people. I'm talking about nuclear power and the dangers 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:21.520 of nuclear waste. While fission reactors have proven that they 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:24.679 can produce a steady supply of electricity using a very 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:29.040 efficient fuel and requiring a tiny land footprint, the questions 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:32.960 that hang over them are safety and waste. The eighteen 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:37.280 UN Report about Climate change lays out pathways to limiting 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.000 warming to one and a half degrees, and all of 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:43.840 their pathways include nuclear power expansion by a hundred and 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:47.000 fifty percent or more. We have recently done a couple 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:50.120 of episodes on the safety of nuclear reactors. In this 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:54.440 episode three sixty six about molten salt reactors whether alternative 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:58.000 designs for fission plants that can produce energy more safely 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:02.440 than In March at episode three seventy six about is 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:05.600 nuclear power worth the risks? Where I talked to Kelly 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:08.760 about whether we need nuclear power to reduce carbon emissions 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:10.960 and whether it can be done safely so that covers 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.720 the safety of the nuclear reactor itself. Today we're going 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.240 to talk about the question of the waste produced in 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:20.040 the nuclear cycle. Is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:22.720 out there, so I've invited an expert to help us 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.640 break it down and think it through. So on today's 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:35.039 episode we'll be tackling the question how dangerous is nuclear waste? 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:37.880 We sit at a critical moment in our history when 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:40.640 climate change is accelerating, and we need to make important 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.400 decisions right now about how to reduce our carbon emissions, 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:47.160 but we also need to take care not to spoil 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.880 our environment. What is the best way forward? Answering that 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:54.520 question requires a sober look at the strengths and weaknesses 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.000 of all of the options. On the table. Our remind 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.720 listeners that in our previous episode we explained what makes 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:02.760 new your power and attractive option, because while wind and 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:06.920 solar are wonderful, they can be transient. Sometimes it's cloudy 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.120 or the wind doesn't blow in some places in the 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.880 depths of winter. You need solar power when it's least productive. 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.080 So it's economical to build a grid that uses solar 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.600 and wind for maybe eighty percent of our energy. But 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:23.240 we need something else, something more robust and steady for 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.080 the other piece, something to help fill in the gap 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:29.120 when the wind doesn't blow and the sun isn't shining. Now, 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:32.320 fossil fuels are attractive because they're easy to fire up 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.640 quickly in response to shortages, but they obviously have huge 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.600 costs and pollution and carbon emissions. So how well does 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.880 nuclear power do. It's very steady because it can provide 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.440 power all day and all night, regardless of the weather, 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.040 but it's tricky to ramp it up or down quickly. 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.919 And while it makes no smoke or carbon emissions, it 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:54.599 produces a very different kind of potentially dangerous pollution in 0:05:54.680 --> 0:06:04.120 its radioactive byproducts. Our first guest is Madison Hilly, executive 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.400 director of the Green New Deal. Maddie, Welcome to the program. 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:09.839 Thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.559 so much. It's great to be here. Daniel. So, first 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.040 help us understand a little bit about your background and 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:19.040 your passion for this issue. Obviously, climate change and decarbonization 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.840 of our energy is a vital project, but most of 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.359 us contributed in minor ways. We reduce our use of 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.320 fossil fuels or energy consumption, or we vote. But you've 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:29.719 made it the core of your life's work and career. 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.040 When did you decide to devote your life to this 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:34.640 topic and what made you decide to do that. Yeah, 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:38.520 So I went into nuclear advocacy straight out of college 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:42.960 in seventeen after I was presented with the environmental case 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:46.680 for nuclear I was really concerned about poverty and developing 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.480 countries as well as climate change issues that I thought 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:53.200 were it odds with one another. So when I found 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:56.359 out that we can lift people out of poverty with cheap, 0:06:56.640 --> 0:07:02.120 abundant energy while providing unparalleled environmental protection, I was all in. 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:07.679 So from I traveled all over Europe and Asia, talking 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.480 to journalists, policy makers, and members of the public about 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:15.160 the need for nuclear power and Meanwhile, back at home 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:18.960 in the US, we were shutting down perfectly good reactors 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:21.680 and we're falling behind the rest of the world on 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.600 new builds. And I didn't really see anyone articulating a 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:30.680 practical vision for transitioning the US nuclear industry from the 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:35.960 verge of collapse, frankly, to one capable of delivering the economic, 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:42.920 environmental and security benefits of nuclear power. So in I 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.200 decided to turn my focus to the US and launched 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.160 the campaign for a Green Nuclear Deal. So, going into 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.280 this conversation, I just want to make it clear I 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:57.120 am not a nuclear waste expert. I don't come from engineering. 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:01.600 I came out of college with degrees in environmental sciences 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:05.560 and political science because I wanted to study and protect 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:09.960 the environment. So everything that I've learned about nuclear was 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.720 to figure out the truth how we can be good 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:19.800 stewards of the environment without compromising on human development and prosperity. 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.880 And I decided to devote my life to being a 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:27.360 nuclear advocate because what I learned when I studied was 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.240 so powerful. Great, thank you. And there are a lot 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:34.160 of interesting issues here, scientific ones, political ones. I thought 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.480 we'd start with the science and organize our conversation by 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.800 following the sort of whole cycle of nuclear power from 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:43.440 mining the fuel and dealing with the spent fuel rods 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:46.440 and talking about the waste and the risks at each step. 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:48.960 So let's start off with just like, what is the 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:51.400 fuel that we need for nuclear power? For those who 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:55.480 haven't immersed their lives in fission and engineering, what is 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:57.000 the fuel that we need? Where do we find the 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.200 fuel for nuclear power? Sure? So the fuel that we 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:04.800 need for nuclear is uranium, and most of that can 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:09.120 be an isotope you two thirty eight, and some of 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:13.720 that needs to be more fissionable or readily fissionable isotope 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:18.760 you two thirty five. So natural uranium that comes out 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:22.319 of the ground is in general about point seven percent 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:29.200 you two thirty five and point three you two thirty eight. 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:33.680 So we are able to extract uranium and then enrich 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:38.960 it to be slightly spicier, that's not a scientific way 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:41.640 to describe it, but with a higher percentage of you 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:46.439 two thirty five to create a reaction to reach criticality 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.800 within a reactor. And so rather than break up each 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.800 step of the fuel cycle, I think it's important to 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.920 start with the context. So whether it's lignite to fuel 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:03.520 coal plants, lithium for batteries, or copper for solar panels. 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:07.600 All energy technologies and systems are going to require some 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:12.080 amount of extraction. So the question isn't that we're talking 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.199 about whether we need to mine or not, but how 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:18.200 much mining and extraction is actually required for our system. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:22.000 And from an environmentalist perspective, the key is to minimize 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:24.600 the mining that has to be done. The great thing 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:28.240 about nuclear from this perspective, throughout the whole fuel cycle, 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:33.080 from mining to milling and enriching and eventually going into 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:39.000 the reactor, is that nuclear is extremely energy den The 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:42.480 technical definition of energy density is just the amount of 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:47.080 energy stored in a given system or substance per unit volume, 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:54.440 but that translates to smallness, compactness, minimal impact. And another 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:57.640 great thing about nuclear is that it's baseload. They don't 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:01.720 require battery backup, so any time you need to dip 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:06.080 into batteries or storage, you're suddenly talking about much more mining. 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.680 So minimizing the amount of storage our energy system will 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.839 need is the fastest way to reduce lithium mining needs, 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.520 for example. So wrapping this up nuclear requires the least 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:22.480 amount of mining and extraction across energy technologies. In fact, 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:26.559 most of uranium mining globally is done without digging pits 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:30.920 or tunnels at all. It's about tiny little wells that 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:35.120 have things like straws suck up the uranium. So you're 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.000 making uranium sound quite tasty. I mean, something you can 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.120 drink through a straw and even maybe has some spice 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.360 to it. Joking aside. I understand the point that all 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:47.000 technologies require extraction of some resources from the earth, and 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.160 it's certainly true that uranium is very dense source of fuel, 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:52.120 but tell us more about how we get it out 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:54.240 of the earth. I know that some uranium is mind 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.760 via open pit mining. There's also this other technique, leach mining. 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:00.560 Is this what you're referring to with the straws right exactly? 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:07.320 So you're basically drilling little wells and using liquids to 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:12.320 extract uranium without having to dig open pits. And that's 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:17.680 again the beautiful thing about nuclear is that the ways 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.840 that in which we extract uranium are credibly small and 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.440 minimizing an environmental impact. One of the silver linings to 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:32.160 the stigma around nuclear is that the entire process of 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:39.920 extracting uranium and milling. It is incredibly regulated, reported with 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:45.600 very tight controls and reporting needs compared to fossil fuels 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:51.080 or other metallurgical mining, despite being very similar, being exactly 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:56.079 the same. So the waste from mining uranium is exactly 0:12:56.120 --> 0:13:00.000 the same, mostly the same as any sort of metals 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.040 that you're mining from the ground. It's just there's a 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:07.640 lot less of it, way way less, and it's more regulated, 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:11.160 and it's handling because it's part of the nuclear fuel cycle. 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.440 And I've heard it said that uranium is also very 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:17.400 plentiful in the oceans, that most of the uranium on 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.160 Earth is actually dissolved into the oceans. Why can't we 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:21.920 just filter it out of the water. Why do we 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.440 need to dig into the ground at all. So it's, 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:28.360 you know, as all things of issue with costs. So 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:34.479 uranium that we can mine is very cost effective, whereas 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:39.280 when you're getting into the institute or pulling out of water, 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:44.040 it's not as cheap. So in a future where I 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.000 think a lot of our energy needs will be met 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.560 by mining, I do suspect we will be doing more 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:55.280 of that. So based on the uranium that we consider 0:13:55.800 --> 0:14:00.920 economically available and the technology that we're using right now, 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.280 we are able to meet all of our nuclear needs, 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:09.280 but we wouldn't have many years in the bank if 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:13.760 we ran completely on nuclear power and everyone had a 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.880 high standard of living. However, the current reactors that we 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:21.440 use barely burn any of the fuel at all, I 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:25.080 think just about one percent of all energy available in 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:29.040 the fuel rod. So we have these other reactors, fast 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:33.160 reactors that can even breed new fuel, which means they 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.320 can produce about a hundred and forty times as much 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:40.400 energy from the same amount of uranium that non breeder 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:46.400 reactors can. So that dramatically expands the number of years 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.320 we can use to power society or we have to 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:54.280 power society. We also have thorium, which can only be 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:57.040 fully consumed in breeder reactors, which is why we don't 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.640 really use it. Now there's a roughly equivalent amount of 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:05.640 known thorium reserves as uranium. So again you're doubling that 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.160 time frame. Now we're talking about, you know, a thousand years, 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.600 but what if we want to go longer. This is 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:15.600 where your question comes into play. So the earth crust 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:19.720 has an average of less than three parts per million 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.800 of uranium and about six parts per million of thorium. 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.680 So this is a crazy fact that would mean that 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:30.240 a random scoop of dirt has more energy in it 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:34.240 than an equivalent scoop of coal. The ocean also has 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:37.520 about two to three parts per million of uranium, So, 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:40.560 like you said, we can extract that to get to 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.840 now hundreds of thousands of years of high energy society. 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:48.560 Because the ocean will continue to pull uranium and thorium 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:52.280 from the soil to maintain that equilibrium, will be able 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:56.160 to continue that extraction process. So we have at our 0:15:56.200 --> 0:16:00.400 disposal about four billion years worth of fissionable reefs versus 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:07.000 it's just what is easily and economically accessible now, given 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:11.920 that we don't have this fully nuclear, fully decarbonized system 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:14.560 that we imagine we might have in the future. I 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.200 hope that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely, And we'll be talking 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.920 in a few minutes about reprocessing spent nuclear fuel and 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.200 thorium cycle and all that kind of stuff. But the 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.320 picture I'm getting is that we have economically cheap waste 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.360 access uranium, but we also have vast stores of uranium 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:31.680 we can access which would be more expensive, but in 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:33.720 the mining process you take it out of the ground. 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:35.640 And then you also need to sort of refine it 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.200 a little bit at this step called milling, where they 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.240 grind the ore material to these uniform particle sizes and 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:44.160 treat them in some process to produce this powder they 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:47.200 call yellow cake. So we have this mining and this milling. 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:49.480 What are the byproducts there? I mean, you don't just 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.680 get pure uranium out. You must produce also other stuff. 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.480 Is that stuff toxic? Is it like radioactive? Is that 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.000 something we need to worry about? So, like I said, 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:03.600 from the mining perspective, it's no different than the tailings 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.919 from most mining, So that's not anything special that we 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:12.280 need to worry about. For the milling process, you do 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:20.040 have some against spicy radioactive material left over for a byproduct, 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.119 But the best thing about it is that it's bagged intact. 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:28.199 There's almost no radioactivity, because that would be a waste 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:32.200 of the product. You actually want. The radioactive stuff as 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:37.760 a byproduct of the milling process, or one of the 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.359 by products of the milling process, can sit around until 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.720 we do have these breeder reactors, and again can be 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:48.480 eaten up and used as fuel. So I wouldn't even 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:53.760 technically classify that as waste because one day, hopefully it 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.880 will not be waste, right, got it. And so that's 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.160 not just like dumped in piles on the ground, you're saying, 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:03.760 it's being carefully tracked somewhere. Right Again, because of the 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:09.440 stigma that the nuclear industry has, it is absolutely necessary 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:16.720 that this whole process be under far greater regulation and control. 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:20.080 It's not necessary, it's necessary, and that the industry wants 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:26.040 to defend itself against anti nuclearism saying that this isn't safe, 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.000 this is dirty, this isn't reported. So it's created this 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:34.440 hyper safety regulation culture that's allowed it to be what 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:38.280 it is today. Mills are often owned and run by 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.040 international partners that have all the pressure from their governments 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:45.760 to stay as clean as possible, so it's got the 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:50.040 cleanest standards, and mining the cleanest standards, and milling. So 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.520 that covers mining and milling, and now we have the 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.919 basic ingredients. Next we'll talk about enrichment. But first before 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:58.760 we get into the spiciest side of nuclear power, we 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:13.520 need to take a short break. Okay, we're back and 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.000 we're talking with Mattie Hilly about the dangers of nuclear waste. 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:19.480 What is produced, how dangerous is it, What are the 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.320 options for storing it. So far we talked about how 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:24.919 to get the stuff out of the ground with mining 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.560 and milling, and next we need to talk about enrichment. 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.320 You said earlier that most of the uranium that we 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.760 take out of the ground is two thirty eight, whereas 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.720 this also you two thirty five. So for our listeners, 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:40.120 those numbers refer to the isotopes of the uranium, essentially 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:43.800 how many protons and neutrons are in the nucleus. Sounds 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.879 very similar, but just three numbers different means very different 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:51.080 abilities to fission these materials into something useful. You two 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.200 thirty five is very facile, while you two thirty eight 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.719 needs faster neutrons, So you two thirty five. The rarer 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.119 one is the kind of material that we need the 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.240 actual fuel in these reactors. So there's this step where 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:05.240 we enrich these things, where we take something which is 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:07.520 mostly you two thirty eight, and we boost up the 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:09.600 U two thirty five fraction of it. How does that 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:13.080 typically happen, Maddie? Is it mostly through centrifuges? So quick 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:18.840 note some reactors don't currently use enriched fuel, So for example, 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:23.720 the can does in Canada can use natural uranium, so 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:27.520 that same ratio of you two thirty five to you 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.959 two thirty eight, But most reactors around them were all 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:34.359 the light waters that we're talking about do. And yes, 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.199 those are enriched with center fugues. But we might be 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:42.280 getting a new technology soon, laser enrichment. I'm definitely not 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:46.159 an expert on enrichment, so I can't describe the laser 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:51.960 enrichment process. But that might make enriching I think easier 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.600 and cheaper, is the hope. And so this leads to 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:57.399 some samples of uranium with more you thirty five, and 0:20:57.440 --> 0:20:59.680 some samples with less. I mean, what you're doing, here's 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.080 your operating right, you're concentrating to so there must be 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:05.119 some waste there, right, Some I think they call this 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:11.040 depleted uranium. Yes, so with this depleted uranium, if the 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:15.840 market price for uranium goes up, we use more of 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:20.600 that depleted uranium. So again, this is not waste in 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:24.639 the sense that these are byproducts we can never use. Again, 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:29.840 it's that we do not use them now because it's 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:34.520 economically cheaper to just not use it. So you can 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:37.480 call it extra not waste, all right, that sounds like 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:39.560 a very nice word for it. And in terms of volume, 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:41.400 there must be sort of a lot of this, right, 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:43.920 we need to enrich the uranium from less than one 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:46.760 percent to up to a few percent. We must produce 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.800 a lot of this depleted uranium. Where is that stuff? 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:51.760 Is it sitting in the warehouses somewhere? Is it being 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:54.800 used for something else? So first of all, you know, 0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:59.280 when we're talking about a lot that's relative to nuclear, 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:02.160 I mean, in general, the amounts that we're talking about 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:06.280 with uranium and nuclear are just very small because it's 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:10.360 very dense. So a lot is actually a very small 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:15.480 amount of depleted uranium sitting near the conversion facilities. You know, 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:17.960 just in general, from the mind to the reactor of 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:22.080 the material flow is very very small. Which you know, 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:25.840 so when green Piece talks about all of the nuclear waste, 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:29.320 there's just so little of it that we really have 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:32.280 to put it into context. It's important to be reminded 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:36.560 that there are very small material volumes, so more than 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:38.720 you could put in your pickup chuck, for example, but 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:41.840 much less than is produced by coal or mining for 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:45.359 battery parts, for example. Is your point? Oh absolutely, yeah, 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:49.600 So all of the waste from commercial nuclear energy, the 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:53.160 entire history in the US could fit on a football 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:57.720 field stacked about fifty feet high. So each nation only 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:01.399 needs a few facilities the size of normal warehouses to 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:05.480 store any of this waste or extra that comes from 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:09.360 the process of creating nuclear fuel. So then let's talk 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:12.240 about the spicy part. Let's talk about actual power generation. 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:15.000 So we have our nuclear plant. We've got you two 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:18.160 thirty five in there. We have it critically dense so 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:20.520 that the neutrons that come off of the fission are 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:23.840 slowed down by the water and trigger reactions in other 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:26.840 you too thirty five atoms. And for those listeners who 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:29.600 want to know more details about the process, check out 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:32.280 our previous episodes about nuclear power. We talked about the 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:35.840 technology and light water reactors and salt reactors and all 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:37.960 that kind of stuff. But the key thing to understand 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:40.919 here is that, as you said earlier, most of the 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:43.840 fuel that's in the rod is still you two thirty eight, 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:46.320 and it's there during the process, and it gets split 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:49.080 apart and it's transformed by the process, but you still 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:50.960 end up with a fuel rod that has a lot 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:54.280 of uranium in it. So what exactly is produced when 0:23:54.280 --> 0:23:56.880 you're you're done running the fuel you've gotten your energy out, 0:23:57.080 --> 0:23:58.760 what is it that comes out? What does the fuel 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:02.280 rod consist of after the process of extracting the energy, right, 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:06.520 So you pull out the fuel rod assembly from the reactor, 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:10.679 and that's what is what we called the waste. And 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:14.480 that waste is made up of three things. One the 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:19.159 unused uranium, which is most of it, to the fission products, 0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:26.680 which are atomic fragments call them lighter than uranium, and transuranics, 0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:30.879 which are radioactive elements that are heavier than uranium. And 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:34.760 all three of these things are stored in the pellets, 0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:39.359 which are stored inside the fuel rods. So that's what's 0:24:39.359 --> 0:24:42.320 coming out of the reactor. So heavier than uranium. That's 0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:44.960 a little surprising. I'm thinking fission. I'm thinking uranium is 0:24:45.000 --> 0:24:48.000 breaking down. I'm expecting to get stuff that's smaller than uranium. 0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:50.439 But I know, for example, that plutonium is produced. Is 0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:53.240 that because it's absorbing neutrons. It's not breaking up. It's 0:24:53.280 --> 0:24:55.600