1 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: When I was young, kids from neighboring towns would sometimes 2 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: asked me if I glowed in the dark. It was 3 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: probably because I grew up in Los Alamos, New Mexico, 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: home of the Atomic mom and secret plutonium facilities. Those 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: kids were kind of joking, but also kind of not 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: They didn't really understand what nuclear meant. What they knew 7 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: came from movies and The Simpsons, where nuclear waste was 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: a glowing green goo that gave fish a third eyeball. Well, 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of the Simpsons, but I'm here 10 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: to tell you that I don't glow in the dark, 11 00:00:42,400 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: and I only have two eyeballs. Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm 12 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: a particle physicist and a professor at u C Irvine, 13 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: and I sincerely hope that my research never kills anyone. 14 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: Both of my parents worked at Los Alumos National Labs, 15 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: and I never knew the details of their projects, but 16 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: I knew that they were involved in the weapons programs, 17 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: so I never visited their offices or even saw the 18 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: front door of their building because it was all in 19 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: the part of the lab that required a Q clearance 20 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: to enter around town. That was called working behind the fence. 21 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: They had their reasons for deciding to contribute to our 22 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,839 Speaker 1: nuclear arsenal, which are pointed at cities and threatened civilian 23 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: populations with horrible death. But I decided to work on 24 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: problems that were more abstract, less likely to put new 25 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: tools of mass destruction into the hands of politicians. It 26 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: means that questions that I answer in my research are 27 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: further removed from humanity. They're less likely to kill anyone, 28 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: but also less likely to improve your quality of life 29 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: in the short term by developing new technology gs or 30 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: more powerful toasters. Of course, I think there's inherent value 31 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: in basic research, you know, knowledge for knowledge's sake. We 32 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: do fundamental research for the same reason that we build parks. 33 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: We do it because it's nice, not because we think 34 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: it's going to lead to a faster graphics processor in 35 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: quarter two of three. But we also know that fundamental 36 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: research is the best way to stumble on transformational technologies, 37 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 1: just not on the schedule of quarterly product reports. So 38 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. Daniel and Jorge explain the Universe, 39 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: in which we dive deep into those fundamental questions about 40 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: the nature of the universe, what's it made of? On 41 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: the smallest scale. How did it come to be this way? 42 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: How big is the universe? How small is the smallest thing? 43 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: We seek to understand the basic nature of the universe 44 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: so that we can ask even deeper, more philosophical questions 45 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: like why this way and not some other way. My 46 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: friend and co host Jorge him is on a break, 47 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: so I'm going to do a deep dive into an 48 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 1: area of physics that is close to my heart and 49 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: my background, not because it answers deep questions about the universe, 50 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: but because it has so much potential to improve or 51 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: damage the lives of humanity. It's a wonderful example of 52 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: the power and danger of putting scientific knowledge to work 53 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: for people. I'm talking about nuclear power and the dangers 54 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: of nuclear waste. While fission reactors have proven that they 55 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,679 Speaker 1: can produce a steady supply of electricity using a very 56 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: efficient fuel and requiring a tiny land footprint, the questions 57 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: that hang over them are safety and waste. The eighteen 58 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: UN Report about Climate change lays out pathways to limiting 59 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: warming to one and a half degrees, and all of 60 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: their pathways include nuclear power expansion by a hundred and 61 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: fifty percent or more. We have recently done a couple 62 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: of episodes on the safety of nuclear reactors. In this 63 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: episode three sixty six about molten salt reactors whether alternative 64 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: designs for fission plants that can produce energy more safely 65 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: than In March at episode three seventy six about is 66 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: nuclear power worth the risks? Where I talked to Kelly 67 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: about whether we need nuclear power to reduce carbon emissions 68 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: and whether it can be done safely so that covers 69 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: the safety of the nuclear reactor itself. Today we're going 70 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: to talk about the question of the waste produced in 71 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: the nuclear cycle. Is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding 72 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: out there, so I've invited an expert to help us 73 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: break it down and think it through. So on today's 74 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: episode we'll be tackling the question how dangerous is nuclear waste? 75 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: We sit at a critical moment in our history when 76 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: climate change is accelerating, and we need to make important 77 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: decisions right now about how to reduce our carbon emissions, 78 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: but we also need to take care not to spoil 79 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: our environment. What is the best way forward? Answering that 80 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: question requires a sober look at the strengths and weaknesses 81 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: of all of the options. On the table. Our remind 82 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: listeners that in our previous episode we explained what makes 83 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: new your power and attractive option, because while wind and 84 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: solar are wonderful, they can be transient. Sometimes it's cloudy 85 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: or the wind doesn't blow in some places in the 86 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: depths of winter. You need solar power when it's least productive. 87 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: So it's economical to build a grid that uses solar 88 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: and wind for maybe eighty percent of our energy. But 89 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: we need something else, something more robust and steady for 90 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: the other piece, something to help fill in the gap 91 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: when the wind doesn't blow and the sun isn't shining. Now, 92 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: fossil fuels are attractive because they're easy to fire up 93 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: quickly in response to shortages, but they obviously have huge 94 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: costs and pollution and carbon emissions. So how well does 95 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: nuclear power do. It's very steady because it can provide 96 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: power all day and all night, regardless of the weather, 97 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: but it's tricky to ramp it up or down quickly. 98 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: And while it makes no smoke or carbon emissions, it 99 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: produces a very different kind of potentially dangerous pollution in 100 00:05:54,680 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: its radioactive byproducts. Our first guest is Madison Hilly, executive 101 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: director of the Green New Deal. Maddie, Welcome to the program. 102 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you 103 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,559 Speaker 1: so much. It's great to be here. Daniel. So, first 104 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: help us understand a little bit about your background and 105 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: your passion for this issue. Obviously, climate change and decarbonization 106 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 1: of our energy is a vital project, but most of 107 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 1: us contributed in minor ways. We reduce our use of 108 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: fossil fuels or energy consumption, or we vote. But you've 109 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: made it the core of your life's work and career. 110 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: When did you decide to devote your life to this 111 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: topic and what made you decide to do that. Yeah, 112 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: So I went into nuclear advocacy straight out of college 113 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: in seventeen after I was presented with the environmental case 114 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: for nuclear I was really concerned about poverty and developing 115 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: countries as well as climate change issues that I thought 116 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: were it odds with one another. So when I found 117 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 1: out that we can lift people out of poverty with cheap, 118 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: abundant energy while providing unparalleled environmental protection, I was all in. 119 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:07,679 Speaker 1: So from I traveled all over Europe and Asia, talking 120 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: to journalists, policy makers, and members of the public about 121 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: the need for nuclear power and Meanwhile, back at home 122 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: in the US, we were shutting down perfectly good reactors 123 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: and we're falling behind the rest of the world on 124 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: new builds. And I didn't really see anyone articulating a 125 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: practical vision for transitioning the US nuclear industry from the 126 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: verge of collapse, frankly, to one capable of delivering the economic, 127 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: environmental and security benefits of nuclear power. So in I 128 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: decided to turn my focus to the US and launched 129 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: the campaign for a Green Nuclear Deal. So, going into 130 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: this conversation, I just want to make it clear I 131 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: am not a nuclear waste expert. I don't come from engineering. 132 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: I came out of college with degrees in environmental sciences 133 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: and political science because I wanted to study and protect 134 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: the environment. So everything that I've learned about nuclear was 135 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: to figure out the truth how we can be good 136 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: stewards of the environment without compromising on human development and prosperity. 137 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: And I decided to devote my life to being a 138 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: nuclear advocate because what I learned when I studied was 139 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: so powerful. Great, thank you. And there are a lot 140 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: of interesting issues here, scientific ones, political ones. I thought 141 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: we'd start with the science and organize our conversation by 142 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: following the sort of whole cycle of nuclear power from 143 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: mining the fuel and dealing with the spent fuel rods 144 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: and talking about the waste and the risks at each step. 145 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: So let's start off with just like, what is the 146 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: fuel that we need for nuclear power? For those who 147 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: haven't immersed their lives in fission and engineering, what is 148 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: the fuel that we need? Where do we find the 149 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: fuel for nuclear power? Sure? So the fuel that we 150 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: need for nuclear is uranium, and most of that can 151 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: be an isotope you two thirty eight, and some of 152 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: that needs to be more fissionable or readily fissionable isotope 153 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: you two thirty five. So natural uranium that comes out 154 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: of the ground is in general about point seven percent 155 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: you two thirty five and point three you two thirty eight. 156 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: So we are able to extract uranium and then enrich 157 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: it to be slightly spicier, that's not a scientific way 158 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: to describe it, but with a higher percentage of you 159 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: two thirty five to create a reaction to reach criticality 160 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: within a reactor. And so rather than break up each 161 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: step of the fuel cycle, I think it's important to 162 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: start with the context. So whether it's lignite to fuel 163 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: coal plants, lithium for batteries, or copper for solar panels. 164 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: All energy technologies and systems are going to require some 165 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: amount of extraction. So the question isn't that we're talking 166 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 1: about whether we need to mine or not, but how 167 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: much mining and extraction is actually required for our system. 168 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: And from an environmentalist perspective, the key is to minimize 169 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: the mining that has to be done. The great thing 170 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: about nuclear from this perspective, throughout the whole fuel cycle, 171 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: from mining to milling and enriching and eventually going into 172 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: the reactor, is that nuclear is extremely energy den The 173 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: technical definition of energy density is just the amount of 174 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: energy stored in a given system or substance per unit volume, 175 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: but that translates to smallness, compactness, minimal impact. And another 176 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: great thing about nuclear is that it's baseload. They don't 177 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: require battery backup, so any time you need to dip 178 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: into batteries or storage, you're suddenly talking about much more mining. 179 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: So minimizing the amount of storage our energy system will 180 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 1: need is the fastest way to reduce lithium mining needs, 181 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: for example. So wrapping this up nuclear requires the least 182 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: amount of mining and extraction across energy technologies. In fact, 183 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 1: most of uranium mining globally is done without digging pits 184 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: or tunnels at all. It's about tiny little wells that 185 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: have things like straws suck up the uranium. So you're 186 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: making uranium sound quite tasty. I mean, something you can 187 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: drink through a straw and even maybe has some spice 188 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: to it. Joking aside. I understand the point that all 189 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: technologies require extraction of some resources from the earth, and 190 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: it's certainly true that uranium is very dense source of fuel, 191 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: but tell us more about how we get it out 192 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: of the earth. I know that some uranium is mind 193 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: via open pit mining. There's also this other technique, leach mining. 194 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: Is this what you're referring to with the straws right exactly? 195 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: So you're basically drilling little wells and using liquids to 196 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: extract uranium without having to dig open pits. And that's 197 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: again the beautiful thing about nuclear is that the ways 198 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: that in which we extract uranium are credibly small and 199 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: minimizing an environmental impact. One of the silver linings to 200 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: the stigma around nuclear is that the entire process of 201 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: extracting uranium and milling. It is incredibly regulated, reported with 202 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: very tight controls and reporting needs compared to fossil fuels 203 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: or other metallurgical mining, despite being very similar, being exactly 204 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 1: the same. So the waste from mining uranium is exactly 205 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: the same, mostly the same as any sort of metals 206 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: that you're mining from the ground. It's just there's a 207 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: lot less of it, way way less, and it's more regulated, 208 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: and it's handling because it's part of the nuclear fuel cycle. 209 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: And I've heard it said that uranium is also very 210 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: plentiful in the oceans, that most of the uranium on 211 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: Earth is actually dissolved into the oceans. Why can't we 212 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: just filter it out of the water. Why do we 213 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: need to dig into the ground at all. So it's, 214 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, as all things of issue with costs. So 215 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:34,479 Speaker 1: uranium that we can mine is very cost effective, whereas 216 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: when you're getting into the institute or pulling out of water, 217 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: it's not as cheap. So in a future where I 218 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: think a lot of our energy needs will be met 219 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: by mining, I do suspect we will be doing more 220 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: of that. So based on the uranium that we consider 221 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: economically available and the technology that we're using right now, 222 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: we are able to meet all of our nuclear needs, 223 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: but we wouldn't have many years in the bank if 224 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: we ran completely on nuclear power and everyone had a 225 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: high standard of living. However, the current reactors that we 226 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: use barely burn any of the fuel at all, I 227 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: think just about one percent of all energy available in 228 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: the fuel rod. So we have these other reactors, fast 229 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: reactors that can even breed new fuel, which means they 230 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: can produce about a hundred and forty times as much 231 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: energy from the same amount of uranium that non breeder 232 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: reactors can. So that dramatically expands the number of years 233 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: we can use to power society or we have to 234 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: power society. We also have thorium, which can only be 235 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: fully consumed in breeder reactors, which is why we don't 236 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: really use it. Now there's a roughly equivalent amount of 237 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: known thorium reserves as uranium. So again you're doubling that 238 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: time frame. Now we're talking about, you know, a thousand years, 239 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: but what if we want to go longer. This is 240 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: where your question comes into play. So the earth crust 241 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: has an average of less than three parts per million 242 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: of uranium and about six parts per million of thorium. 243 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: So this is a crazy fact that would mean that 244 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: a random scoop of dirt has more energy in it 245 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: than an equivalent scoop of coal. The ocean also has 246 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: about two to three parts per million of uranium, So, 247 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: like you said, we can extract that to get to 248 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: now hundreds of thousands of years of high energy society. 249 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: Because the ocean will continue to pull uranium and thorium 250 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: from the soil to maintain that equilibrium, will be able 251 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: to continue that extraction process. So we have at our 252 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: disposal about four billion years worth of fissionable reefs versus 253 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: it's just what is easily and economically accessible now, given 254 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: that we don't have this fully nuclear, fully decarbonized system 255 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: that we imagine we might have in the future. I 256 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: hope that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely, And we'll be talking 257 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: in a few minutes about reprocessing spent nuclear fuel and 258 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: thorium cycle and all that kind of stuff. But the 259 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: picture I'm getting is that we have economically cheap waste 260 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: access uranium, but we also have vast stores of uranium 261 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: we can access which would be more expensive, but in 262 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: the mining process you take it out of the ground. 263 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: And then you also need to sort of refine it 264 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: a little bit at this step called milling, where they 265 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: grind the ore material to these uniform particle sizes and 266 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: treat them in some process to produce this powder they 267 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: call yellow cake. So we have this mining and this milling. 268 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: What are the byproducts there? I mean, you don't just 269 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: get pure uranium out. You must produce also other stuff. 270 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: Is that stuff toxic? Is it like radioactive? Is that 271 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: something we need to worry about? So, like I said, 272 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: from the mining perspective, it's no different than the tailings 273 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: from most mining, So that's not anything special that we 274 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: need to worry about. For the milling process, you do 275 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: have some against spicy radioactive material left over for a byproduct, 276 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: But the best thing about it is that it's bagged intact. 277 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:28,199 Speaker 1: There's almost no radioactivity, because that would be a waste 278 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: of the product. You actually want. The radioactive stuff as 279 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: a byproduct of the milling process, or one of the 280 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: by products of the milling process, can sit around until 281 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: we do have these breeder reactors, and again can be 282 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: eaten up and used as fuel. So I wouldn't even 283 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: technically classify that as waste because one day, hopefully it 284 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 1: will not be waste, right, got it. And so that's 285 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: not just like dumped in piles on the ground, you're saying, 286 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: it's being carefully tracked somewhere. Right Again, because of the 287 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: stigma that the nuclear industry has, it is absolutely necessary 288 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: that this whole process be under far greater regulation and control. 289 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: It's not necessary, it's necessary, and that the industry wants 290 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: to defend itself against anti nuclearism saying that this isn't safe, 291 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: this is dirty, this isn't reported. So it's created this 292 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: hyper safety regulation culture that's allowed it to be what 293 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: it is today. Mills are often owned and run by 294 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: international partners that have all the pressure from their governments 295 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: to stay as clean as possible, so it's got the 296 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: cleanest standards, and mining the cleanest standards, and milling. So 297 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: that covers mining and milling, and now we have the 298 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: basic ingredients. Next we'll talk about enrichment. But first before 299 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: we get into the spiciest side of nuclear power, we 300 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: need to take a short break. Okay, we're back and 301 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: we're talking with Mattie Hilly about the dangers of nuclear waste. 302 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: What is produced, how dangerous is it, What are the 303 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: options for storing it. So far we talked about how 304 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: to get the stuff out of the ground with mining 305 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: and milling, and next we need to talk about enrichment. 306 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: You said earlier that most of the uranium that we 307 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: take out of the ground is two thirty eight, whereas 308 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: this also you two thirty five. So for our listeners, 309 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: those numbers refer to the isotopes of the uranium, essentially 310 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: how many protons and neutrons are in the nucleus. Sounds 311 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: very similar, but just three numbers different means very different 312 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: abilities to fission these materials into something useful. You two 313 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: thirty five is very facile, while you two thirty eight 314 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,719 Speaker 1: needs faster neutrons, So you two thirty five. The rarer 315 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: one is the kind of material that we need the 316 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: actual fuel in these reactors. So there's this step where 317 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: we enrich these things, where we take something which is 318 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: mostly you two thirty eight, and we boost up the 319 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: U two thirty five fraction of it. How does that 320 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: typically happen, Maddie? Is it mostly through centrifuges? So quick 321 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: note some reactors don't currently use enriched fuel, So for example, 322 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: the can does in Canada can use natural uranium, so 323 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: that same ratio of you two thirty five to you 324 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,959 Speaker 1: two thirty eight, But most reactors around them were all 325 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: the light waters that we're talking about do. And yes, 326 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 1: those are enriched with center fugues. But we might be 327 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: getting a new technology soon, laser enrichment. I'm definitely not 328 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: an expert on enrichment, so I can't describe the laser 329 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: enrichment process. But that might make enriching I think easier 330 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: and cheaper, is the hope. And so this leads to 331 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: some samples of uranium with more you thirty five, and 332 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: some samples with less. I mean, what you're doing, here's 333 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: your operating right, you're concentrating to so there must be 334 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: some waste there, right, Some I think they call this 335 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: depleted uranium. Yes, so with this depleted uranium, if the 336 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: market price for uranium goes up, we use more of 337 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: that depleted uranium. So again, this is not waste in 338 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: the sense that these are byproducts we can never use. Again, 339 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: it's that we do not use them now because it's 340 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: economically cheaper to just not use it. So you can 341 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: call it extra not waste, all right, that sounds like 342 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: a very nice word for it. And in terms of volume, 343 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 1: there must be sort of a lot of this, right, 344 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: we need to enrich the uranium from less than one 345 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: percent to up to a few percent. We must produce 346 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: a lot of this depleted uranium. Where is that stuff? 347 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: Is it sitting in the warehouses somewhere? Is it being 348 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: used for something else? So first of all, you know, 349 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: when we're talking about a lot that's relative to nuclear, 350 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: I mean, in general, the amounts that we're talking about 351 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: with uranium and nuclear are just very small because it's 352 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: very dense. So a lot is actually a very small 353 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: amount of depleted uranium sitting near the conversion facilities. You know, 354 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: just in general, from the mind to the reactor of 355 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: the material flow is very very small. Which you know, 356 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: so when green Piece talks about all of the nuclear waste, 357 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: there's just so little of it that we really have 358 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: to put it into context. It's important to be reminded 359 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: that there are very small material volumes, so more than 360 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: you could put in your pickup chuck, for example, but 361 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: much less than is produced by coal or mining for 362 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: battery parts, for example. Is your point? Oh absolutely, yeah, 363 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: So all of the waste from commercial nuclear energy, the 364 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: entire history in the US could fit on a football 365 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: field stacked about fifty feet high. So each nation only 366 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: needs a few facilities the size of normal warehouses to 367 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: store any of this waste or extra that comes from 368 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 1: the process of creating nuclear fuel. So then let's talk 369 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: about the spicy part. Let's talk about actual power generation. 370 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: So we have our nuclear plant. We've got you two 371 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: thirty five in there. We have it critically dense so 372 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: that the neutrons that come off of the fission are 373 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: slowed down by the water and trigger reactions in other 374 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: you too thirty five atoms. And for those listeners who 375 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: want to know more details about the process, check out 376 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: our previous episodes about nuclear power. We talked about the 377 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: technology and light water reactors and salt reactors and all 378 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But the key thing to understand 379 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: here is that, as you said earlier, most of the 380 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: fuel that's in the rod is still you two thirty eight, 381 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: and it's there during the process, and it gets split 382 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: apart and it's transformed by the process, but you still 383 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: end up with a fuel rod that has a lot 384 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: of uranium in it. So what exactly is produced when 385 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: you're you're done running the fuel you've gotten your energy out, 386 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: what is it that comes out? What does the fuel 387 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: rod consist of after the process of extracting the energy, right, 388 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: So you pull out the fuel rod assembly from the reactor, 389 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: and that's what is what we called the waste. And 390 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: that waste is made up of three things. One the 391 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 1: unused uranium, which is most of it, to the fission products, 392 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: which are atomic fragments call them lighter than uranium, and transuranics, 393 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: which are radioactive elements that are heavier than uranium. And 394 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: all three of these things are stored in the pellets, 395 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: which are stored inside the fuel rods. So that's what's 396 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: coming out of the reactor. So heavier than uranium. That's 397 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: a little surprising. I'm thinking fission. I'm thinking uranium is 398 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: breaking down. I'm expecting to get stuff that's smaller than uranium. 399 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 1: But I know, for example, that plutonium is produced. Is 400 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: that because it's absorbing neutrons. It's not breaking up. It's 401 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: just like grabbing some of these neutrons and it's going 402 00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: up the periodic table exactly. So those transuranum are the 403 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: result of uranium absorbing neutrons but not fissioning. So you 404 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: can think of transuranics as future reactor fuel from neutrons 405 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: going into uranium and making them chunking it up. To speak. 406 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: On the other hand, you have these fission products, which 407 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: are small and the result of as you were describing 408 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: the fissioning there the fragments left over at the end 409 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: of that process. Great. So we have these three elements 410 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: you're saying. We have the leftover uranium, we have the 411 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: trans uranics like plutonium, and then we have the byproducts. 412 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: And so here we have things that are like neptunium 413 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: two thirty seven with a two million year half life, 414 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,959 Speaker 1: and uranium two thirty four with the hundreds of year lifetime. 415 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: I think this is the kind of stuff people think 416 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: about when they hear nuclear waste. They hear about things 417 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: that are radioactive and that will last for millions of years. 418 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: So tell us about the dangers of these like how 419 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: dangerous are these things? Why are we worried about them? 420 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: So the general rule of thumb for radiation is that 421 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: a short half life means higher radio activity, so much spicier, 422 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: but for a shorter period of time. Long half life 423 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: means lower radio activity. It's less spicy, but over a 424 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: much longer time. So very short half life products are 425 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: of little concern when we talk about the waste because 426 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: by definition, they've already lost most of their radio activity 427 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: by the time the fuel rods have cooled off. So 428 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: all of waste management is really dealing with these longer 429 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 1: lasting products. And so transuranics do have a long effective 430 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: half life, but that also means they don't produce nearly 431 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: the heat or penetrating radiation of those short half life 432 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: products or fission products, and so they might last for 433 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: a long time, but they're not nearly as hazardous as 434 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: some of the other materials that were concerned about. And 435 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 1: because these transuranics can be consumed in fast reactors, that 436 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: would mean their remaining waste is very short lived compared 437 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: to the traditional spent fuel that we currently have a right, 438 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: so you're telling us that the stuff that doesn't last 439 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: very long, like the caesium one thirty seven and the 440 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: strontium nine s have half lives of like decades, These 441 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: things are very toxic because they don't last very long. 442 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: They're like giving up the ghost all in one go, 443 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 1: spring out all of their toxicity in the moment, whereas 444 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: the other stuff, the stuff that people think about lasting 445 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: a very long time isn't as dangerous because it lasts 446 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: a long time because it sort of spreads out the 447 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,239 Speaker 1: poison or millions of years rather than decades exactly. And 448 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: most of those transuranics actually have radioactivity less than the 449 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,959 Speaker 1: equivalent of their uranium or equivalent to one ton of fuel, 450 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: so it would be like grabbing dirt essentially. So let's 451 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: talk about what we can do with this stuff. Obviously, 452 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: the very short lived products that are the very toxic ones, 453 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: this just needs to be stored and you just need 454 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: to be shielded from it until the radioactivity dies away. 455 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: Those have half lives of like decades. But this other stuff, 456 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: plutonium two thirty eight, plutonium two thirty nine is very 457 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: long lived. You're saying that we can reuse this. It's 458 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: a little surprising and counterintuitive to think, like the waist 459 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 1: that comes out is also fueled, because why wasn't it 460 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 1: just fueled the first time around? What do you need 461 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: to do to it to make it like usable again? 462 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: Why wasn't it just useful in the first go around? Right, 463 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: So this in part gets into the difference of reactors 464 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 1: that we have and reactors that we will use in 465 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: the future. So in thermal nuclear power plants, we're talking 466 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: about slow neutrons. These are neutrons that basically move at 467 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: the same speed of the materials and the reactor, so 468 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: slow relatively speaking, as opposed to fast reactors, where fast 469 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: neutrons smash up everything in there but are less efficient 470 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: doing so. So you need a lot of neutrons and 471 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: you need to move fast because some leak. Right, So 472 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: my understanding is that the slow reactors here, you have 473 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: you two thirty five, and they produce neutrons that are 474 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: a little bit faster than they actually need to take 475 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: in order to do more fission. Right, So YouTube thirty 476 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: five produces neutrons and if those hit other atoms they 477 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: would cause fission, but actually works better if they're a 478 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: little bit slower. It's like a whole nuclear model where 479 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: you have protons and neutrons layered together in these shells. 480 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: The speed at which the neutron hits it really affects 481 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: whether it's going to split in half or get absorbed. 482 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: So in the original process the thermal water reactors, you've 483 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: got to slow down those neutrons to be like the 484 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: optimal speed for you two thirty five. You're saying these 485 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: other fuels they actually like faster neutrons. Now you need 486 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: like a different kind of reactor, one where you have 487 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: the fast neutrons buzzing about to create fission in these 488 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: other products. So the two steps were why are different 489 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: speeds of neutrons, which is why it doesn't just happen 490 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: all at once. Right, So, if you're working with slow neutrons, 491 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: which we do in our current thermal reactors, you form 492 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: but do not fission the transuranics. So what you would 493 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: need to do is take them out and switch them 494 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: to a fast reactor. But you can also just start 495 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: with a fast reactor. In fact, the first ever lightbulb 496 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: to get powered by a generator from a nuclear reactor 497 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: was a fast reactor. And so historically did we start 498 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: out with just the sort of slow neutron reactors and 499 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: not worry about this stuff because it was cheaper to 500 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: be inefficient about it, just sort of use up some 501 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: of the U thirty five and leave the rest of 502 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: the stuff as waste. And now we're developing these faster 503 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: reactors or what's the history of it there, if you know. So, 504 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: we did try a lot of what are now being 505 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: touted as advanced nuclear designs back in the fifties and 506 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: sixties with the commercial nuclear energy program. Part of the 507 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: reason we chose light water is that for these fast 508 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: react afters, you need spicy your fuel. You need that 509 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: higher enrichment, the higher ratio of you toot to youtubet 510 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: to start up that fast reactor, and so the thought 511 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: was that's you know, more difficult, has higher proliferation risks, 512 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: was the main motivation to avoid that and stick with 513 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: the lower enrichment. And light water really helps to slow 514 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: down neutrons a lot while carrying away lots of heat, 515 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: which is how you get energy from a reactor. So 516 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: I think there's this narrative that, oh, we just chose 517 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: this very inefficient technology because we adopted it from the 518 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: Navy and we got locked in, whereas there are these 519 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: other better alternative designs, where there were actually a lot 520 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: of physical and engineering and like sound reasons why the 521 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: light water reactor was a really great reactor tommercialize and 522 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: export to the rest of the world. All right, So 523 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: now we have this technology, we produce waste, and part 524 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: of that we can reprocess into fuel for other reactors 525 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: extract even more energy out of it. As you were saying, 526 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: this gives us a huge extension on our ability to 527 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: like power our society using uranium. But still we're gonna 528 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: have some waste right in the end. We can't burn 529 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: everything up into harmless byproducts. Even if you do these 530 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: fast reactors, you get something. So tell us about what 531 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: it is that actually comes out. I mean, I think 532 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: in people's minds you have these Homer Simpson barrels of 533 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: glowing green goo. What does the nuclear waste actually look like? Right? 534 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: So for most of the world, it looks like this. 535 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: They are long, skinny metallic rods that are all put 536 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: together in a bundle called a fuel assembly, and once 537 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: they're done cooking in the reactor, you take them out there, 538 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: put into what's called spent fuel pool to cool off, 539 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: and then afterwards, you know, maybe like five years or so, 540 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: there's taken out and put into these virtually indestructible, large 541 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: steel and concrete containers called casks. Can I stop you 542 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: there and ask you about that? You said that they 543 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: cool off for five years in a pool. Are we're 544 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: talking about heat in terms of like radioactive spiciness or 545 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: heat in terms of temperature? What takes five years to 546 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: cool down both. So, like I said, there are the 547 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:32,719 Speaker 1: short lived spicier products that we want to lose their radioactivity, 548 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: but there's also the thermal energy from radiation. So the 549 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: answer is both. So these things are literally hot and 550 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: they take five years to get colder. Is that because 551 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: of the radioactor processes are still happening, Like the caesum 552 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: and the strawntium that's decaying, it's still heating up the 553 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: rod as it's cooling. Yeah, the spiciest stuff is decaying 554 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: rapidly and that's putting off thermal energy. And can we 555 00:33:58,160 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: capture any of that energy? It seems like you have 556 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: the glowing rods that are dumping heat. Can we just 557 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: use water and capture that heat and turn it into 558 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: energy or is that just wasted somehow? I mean, some 559 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: people have proposed this. I don't actually know what the 560 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: feasibility is. I don't know that it's that important in 561 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: the grand scheme of things, but perhaps all right, And 562 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: so now we have these rods which contain things we 563 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: don't think are useful in the fuel cycle anymore. And 564 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: I spent five years cooling down and bleeding off some 565 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: of the radio activity. And then the question is what 566 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: do we do with it? Right, we need someplace to 567 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: put it that's like geologically stable and that we don't 568 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 1: think future humans are going to stick a straw into 569 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: it and drink it. So what are the options in 570 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: terms of like where to put this stuff? Right? So 571 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: first let's talk about what we do in the United States. 572 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: Like I said, you get these assemblies out of the 573 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 1: spent fuel and you put them into these big containers 574 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,280 Speaker 1: and right now they just sit right at the site 575 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: of production in at the power plant. They have a 576 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: perfect safety record, they're regulated, monitored, and you can hug them, 577 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: you can sit on them. I mean the utilities typically 578 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: don't allow people to come in and do that, but 579 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: the times that nuclear advocates have been allowed, you can 580 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: touch them. I mean they're completely and perfectly safe. There 581 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: are videos of these cast getting hit by a train 582 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: and the train does not survive the impact, but the 583 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: cast does. There's also they shot a missile at these 584 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: casts and it was unharmed. I mean, it was damaged, 585 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: but nothing that would open the cast that compromises the 586 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 1: integrity of the cask. So the way we do it 587 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: currently is just fine. So can I stop you there 588 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: and ask you a question, because the perception among those 589 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 1: who are not experts and haven't done the research in 590 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: this is that nuclear waste is dangerous and that it's 591 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: been spilled, and that we don't have a way to 592 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,919 Speaker 1: contain it. And you're telling us something quite different. You're saying, 593 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: basically that we have the tech knowlogy to seal it 594 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 1: up in a way that we never have to worry 595 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: about it. Again. I read a report from Greenpeace. Is 596 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 1: a quotation from their executive summary. They said, without exception, 597 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: all countries reviewed were found lacking a sustainable and safe 598 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: solution for managing the vast volumes of nuclear waste. This 599 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: includes high level spent fuel produced at all nuclear reactors, 600 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: for which to date all efforts to find secure and 601 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: safe permanent disposal options have failed. How do you reconcile 602 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: their statements with what you're telling us about the safety 603 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: of nuclear waste. Are they talking about different things or 604 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: is it just a different policy approach? Right, So, there 605 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: are two things that you address there. I want to 606 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: start with the first, which is the public perception, and 607 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: I think that's a very real issue. In fact, I 608 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: think that is the most important issue facing nuclear waste. 609 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: It's not that there's any danger. There isn't because the 610 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: hazards of the waste are physically very small and very 611 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 1: weak to the countermeasures and systems we already have in place. 612 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: The public doesn't know because they haven't been able to visit. 613 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 1: So their perception of nuclear waste comes from Mr Burns 614 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: shoving green barrels of goo into trees in the Simpsons, 615 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: and not just these big, ugly, boring concrete casks that 616 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: take up the space of, you know, a fraction of 617 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: a parking lot. So I think that there needs to 618 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: be more transparency when it comes to nuclear waste to 619 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: solve that perception issue. Green Peace is a different thing. 620 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: So green Peace is an anti nuclear organization, which means 621 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: they aren't looking for a solution, they're looking for nuclear 622 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: not to exist. Their trick is to be for everything 623 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: that doesn't exist yet, like geological repositories being proposed or 624 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: very advanced nuclear reactors, but then turning against them as 625 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: soon as they even begin to exist. So, for example, 626 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: Finland actually does have a geological repository and green Peace 627 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: has fought it every step along the way, and now 628 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: that it exists, says it's not good enough. So they 629 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,399 Speaker 1: start by defining everything in nuclear as not sustainable. Then 630 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: they point out everything existing and proposed and called it 631 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: unsustainable if it includes anything with nuclear that's the game 632 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: I see. And something else that might give people the 633 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:36,399 Speaker 1: sense that nuclear power produces waste which leaks out into 634 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: their water table, for example, is that there have been 635 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 1: nuclear incidents at reactors Fukushima, Ensure Noble, and these things 636 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 1: have caused radioactive clouds, for example, or into the water, 637 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: and that is something that people need to think about 638 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: when it comes to nuclear power. But today we're just 639 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: talking about the danger of the waste itself, right, the 640 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: actual product that comes out of a nuclear power plant 641 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 1: which is operating in a stable and safe manner, right right. 642 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: So you can't really understand the fear around nuclear waste 643 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: if you just look at the science and the physical 644 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: evidence and what's coming out of the reactor. So I 645 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: think a better way to understand is when you start 646 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: looking at it in terms of a way to express 647 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: nuclear fear by projecting it onto the waste. And a 648 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: lot of minds there's no difference between nuclear power and 649 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: nuclear bombs, and these tasks of nuclear waste are seen 650 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,800 Speaker 1: as small nuclear bombs, which is a huge public perception problem. 651 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 1: So again, I think if people were allowed to visit 652 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: the waste like they are in other countries and see 653 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: it for what it is, suddenly you can have a 654 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: conversation about what do we do with a waste that 655 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 1: deals with the physical nature of the waste and not 656 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: the emotional concerns around it. Agree, thank you. I want 657 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,399 Speaker 1: to talk more are about the storage issues and Yuck 658 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: a Mountain and how we move forward with First, let's 659 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 1: take another quick break. Okay, we're back and we're talking 660 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: with Maddie Hilly about what to do with nuclear waste, 661 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: and we're talking about the stuff that comes out of 662 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: the reaction. Once you've processed it, you've gotten your fuel, 663 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: maybe you've done some reprocessing to use more of the 664 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 1: radioactive elements inside the rods, and now you need a 665 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: place to safely keep this. And you're telling us that 666 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: it's basically not a big deal. You can just wrap 667 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: it up in these casks and you can even store 668 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: it above ground. Right. So, in the United States, for 669 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: many years there was this project that Yuck a Mountain 670 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: to basically bury this stuff, to find a place to 671 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:51,360 Speaker 1: put it where we thought it was not going to 672 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,800 Speaker 1: be geologically a problem for many, many thousands of years, 673 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: and where maybe future humans weren't likely to stumble across it. 674 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 1: What is the history of yuck A Mountain? Why did 675 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: that fail? And do you think we need a similar 676 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 1: kind of project or a totally different approach? So I 677 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: think Yucka Mountain is another example of the nuclear industry 678 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: trying to respond to social concerns with costly technological solutions. 679 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: So yuck a Mountain. The idea is that you would 680 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,879 Speaker 1: put your waste in the center of the desert, deep underground, 681 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,280 Speaker 1: so it could harm no one and no one would 682 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: be near it. But we already have a system that 683 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: has a perfect safety record. So Yucca Mountain, if it 684 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: were to get completed, would save zero lives, protect against 685 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: zero injuries, avoid zero cancer. But what it would do 686 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,720 Speaker 1: is give the false impression that nuclear waste is somehow 687 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,439 Speaker 1: uniquely dangerous industrial waste such that it needs to be 688 00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere, deep underground. Ironically, because of 689 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 1: the sheer cost and effort involved in a repository like 690 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: Yucca Mountain, the public fears that about nuclear waste are reaffirmed, 691 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: not diffused, so they see that the industry and government 692 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: are willing to spend all this money and build a 693 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 1: huge megaproject to bury the waste, and they think, Wow, 694 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 1: my god, that must be so dangerous. Let's just not 695 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,839 Speaker 1: have it at all. So you're saying it's sort of performative. 696 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: It's not actually making things safer. It's just sort of 697 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,040 Speaker 1: trying to make people feel like something is being done. Exactly. 698 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: It's trying to solve a social concern with the technological fix, 699 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,320 Speaker 1: which is kind of the main theme of the nuclear 700 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: industry over its existence, at least in the US. And 701 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,240 Speaker 1: let me ask you another question about your claim. Earlier 702 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: you said that this has a perfect safety record, and 703 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: I wonder if that sort of jives with people's perception 704 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,320 Speaker 1: of the nuclear industry, because, you know, we hear about 705 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 1: toxic spills. I was reading report from the Department of 706 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: Energy that says that there are millions of galleons of 707 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,040 Speaker 1: radioactive waste and they're huge quantities of contaminated soil and water, 708 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 1: and they identify like fifty seven sites that need to 709 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: clean up. Is that because this radioactive waste comes from 710 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 1: other sources, other processes, other industries, and that the spent 711 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,840 Speaker 1: nuclear fuel itself has never had a safety issue. Is 712 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 1: that the distinction? Yes, exactly. So almost all of those 713 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,480 Speaker 1: things that you mentioned, including Hanford, including you know, the 714 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 1: Southwest US, are almost exclusively heritage weapon facilities. So I 715 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: would say, if anything, the creation of a commercial nuclear 716 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: energy industry has made nuclear at large safer because now 717 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 1: we know how to properly regulate and monitor waste. So 718 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 1: those are all from the weapons project, which is a 719 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: separate topic and one that I think is really important 720 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: to cover, But none of that is from commercial energy production. Great, 721 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 1: and so you're telling us that yuck a Mountain wasn't 722 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: actually a great idea because it's mostly performative, it was 723 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: very expensive, and plus then you have to transport this 724 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: waste from where it's produced and where it could be 725 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,360 Speaker 1: safely stored into some other location, carrying these things like 726 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 1: across the country. So what do you think is the 727 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 1: best path forward for storing nuclear waste? Should we just 728 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 1: sort of keep it where it's produced? To start off? 729 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 1: I would just want to say that I have absolute 730 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 1: confidence that underground storage will work physically. That's not the 731 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: problem here. The problem is that the impulse misunderstands the 732 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: needs and fears. So for example, I mentioned earlier that 733 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 1: the Finish have built an underground repository, but the Finish 734 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:44,720 Speaker 1: are already extremely pro nuclear. Their Green Party has rebelled 735 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,360 Speaker 1: against the Green piece party line and openly supports nuclear power, 736 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 1: so they had the comfortability with nuclear first and the 737 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: repository came next. In the US, we don't have that comfortability, 738 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 1: and part to that is I think the lack of 739 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: transparency and honesty and the discussion about waste. So in 740 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: my opinion, nuclear waste is like co parenting. You want 741 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: absolute transparency and visitation rights. What does that mean. We 742 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,439 Speaker 1: need to talk about the waste and put the risk 743 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,880 Speaker 1: into context, which is that there's virtually no risk and 744 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 1: that our system works great. And then we need the 745 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,799 Speaker 1: public to be able to visit and see that for themselves. 746 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,680 Speaker 1: They'll come and see that this isn't green barrels of 747 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,160 Speaker 1: leaky goop. You know. For example, in the Netherlands, they 748 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 1: store their process waste in a centralized facility that's basically 749 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:48,279 Speaker 1: an education and art museum open to the public. They 750 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 1: can walk on top of the waist with just some 751 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,359 Speaker 1: concrete in between them and the spicier stuff. And that's 752 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: a really spicy stuff compared to what we have because 753 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,399 Speaker 1: it's processed. So I think that in the US, our 754 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,759 Speaker 1: first priority is to allow the public to see that 755 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 1: nuclear waste is no big deal. Then we can have 756 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,880 Speaker 1: discussions about waste that deal with the physical properties of 757 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,839 Speaker 1: the waste and not how do we ease social and 758 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,359 Speaker 1: emotional concerns. All right, Well, it's a very complex issue scientifically, 759 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 1: and the politics are even more complicated. So thanks very 760 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,239 Speaker 1: much Mattie for coming on today and walking us through 761 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 1: some of the details of what exactly is nuclear waste 762 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,239 Speaker 1: to how to store and what the real dangers are. 763 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 1: Really appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Thank you 764 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 1: so much. Daniel, great to chat. So that was my 765 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,360 Speaker 1: conversation with Maddie Hilly, who was a very strong advocate 766 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: for commercial nuclear power and feels that the waste is 767 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,240 Speaker 1: something that we can manage. I thought that it was important, however, 768 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: to hear from folks on the other side of the issue, 769 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,680 Speaker 1: so I reached out to representatives from Greenpeace and the 770 00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 1: Natural Resources Defense Counsel. Here are some excerpts from my 771 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 1: interviews with them. Okay, and so I'm very pleased to 772 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,320 Speaker 1: welcome Jan Horcomp He's a senior expert in nuclear energy 773 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 1: and energy policy at green Peace, and he's a master's 774 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,879 Speaker 1: degree in environmental science. John, thanks very much for taking 775 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,680 Speaker 1: some time to talk to us. Oh, I'm very happy 776 00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: to be there. It's an afternoon here, beautiful weather and 777 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,080 Speaker 1: for you, a very early morning. So my first question 778 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: for you is what is your assessment of the safety 779 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,799 Speaker 1: record of various producers of sort of the most dangerous 780 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,400 Speaker 1: highest level waste. We heard from an advocate for nuclear 781 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,480 Speaker 1: power who told us that the commercial nuclear power industry 782 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: has a quote perfect safety record when it comes to 783 00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: spent fuel. Is that how you would characterize it? Well, exactly. 784 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:51,240 Speaker 1: I mean, we've had a lot of incidents in the Princess, 785 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: in the reprocessing industry, which is dealing with spent fuel. 786 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:59,840 Speaker 1: One of the most horrible ones is probably incident where 787 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,840 Speaker 1: too much of high level material was thrown together and 788 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:06,719 Speaker 1: where we had an explosion. I mean, those incidents you 789 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 1: don't want to see often. But we also have the 790 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,920 Speaker 1: track record of Lahagan in France, and track record of 791 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,880 Speaker 1: seller Field, and the track record of Mayak in Russia. 792 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 1: There is a lot to tell about that. There is 793 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,920 Speaker 1: so much to tell about that that I want to 794 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: go now into all of them. But the management of 795 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,719 Speaker 1: spending nuclear fuel is not an easy job to do. 796 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:30,799 Speaker 1: It's technically very complex, and in technical very complex things, 797 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,319 Speaker 1: things go sometimes wrong. Luckily enough, most of the time 798 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,919 Speaker 1: those are minor incidents where we deal with a minor 799 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,360 Speaker 1: contamination of people that are involved. But we have seen 800 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,360 Speaker 1: some very very large incidents like the Mayak nineteen fifty 801 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,879 Speaker 1: seven incidents, or Team incident as it's also known, which 802 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:54,120 Speaker 1: is probably the third largest emission radioactive substances from the industry. 803 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,480 Speaker 1: Of course, you can argue whether the Russian lucre industry 804 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,560 Speaker 1: is a civil care industry because it's a hybrid industry 805 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,359 Speaker 1: military civil, But that's a discussion you can have. It's 806 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: high level radioactivist is a very complex issue, and I 807 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:13,200 Speaker 1: think slogans are not really benefit to to discussion about him. 808 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,440 Speaker 1: To help us understand the challenge here, why not just 809 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:19,719 Speaker 1: store the fairly small volume of nuclear fuel at the 810 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,759 Speaker 1: reactors where it's produced so you don't have to transport it, 811 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,680 Speaker 1: you don't worry about loss and damage during transport. Why 812 00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,080 Speaker 1: don't you store them at the reactors or at facilities 813 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,360 Speaker 1: like cobra in the Netherlands. What's the danger there. The 814 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: small amount is at the moment almost half millions of 815 00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: four heard eight ninety tons world wide, so it's it's 816 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,560 Speaker 1: not that small of a map. Here in Netherlands we 817 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,759 Speaker 1: have a hundred and ten cubic meters, which is not 818 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:48,040 Speaker 1: that very much at COD and I think storage of 819 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:54,319 Speaker 1: spendinger fuel temporarily is basically the default option that the 820 00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:59,040 Speaker 1: majority of the operators is now choosing, and that's done 821 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,839 Speaker 1: in different quality. Is one of my headaches last night 822 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 1: was shelling sub Region compower station and a shell that 823 00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,400 Speaker 1: was falling next to the dry casket towards there. You 824 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,640 Speaker 1: hear my side. I mean that has been a few 825 00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,080 Speaker 1: hours off twitting to find out what the what the 826 00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,920 Speaker 1: impact was. It was just far enough away. So I'm 827 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,840 Speaker 1: happy about that. There is no incident there in the Netherlands. 828 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: Ferenstans that COVID. How we've chosen for a very large 829 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:28,560 Speaker 1: and very well protected engineered storage space to habog and 830 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,960 Speaker 1: I think that that is probably at the moment the 831 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,359 Speaker 1: state of the art of how to temporarily store high 832 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,680 Speaker 1: level radioactive waste. Now that's not spent fuel. The Netherlands 833 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 1: are reprocessing, so that's petrified waste, which we are sure 834 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,360 Speaker 1: that it will have to be kept out of the 835 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,040 Speaker 1: environment for the next a few hundred thousand years. Temporary 836 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,279 Speaker 1: storage for that reason, is only a temporary solution in 837 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:55,480 Speaker 1: this case until the year two thousand and thirty when 838 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,560 Speaker 1: it is supposed to close. And decision about what to 839 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,360 Speaker 1: do with the waist then is in the Netherlands not 840 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,200 Speaker 1: going to be taken before the year two thousand one hundred. 841 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:10,239 Speaker 1: That is probably also your great great grandchildren that will 842 00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,480 Speaker 1: have to take the decision for something where they have 843 00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,399 Speaker 1: had no benefit of at all. You aready noticed there's 844 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,400 Speaker 1: a few things that play here. In principle, if we 845 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:20,719 Speaker 1: have waste like this, it is better to store it 846 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:25,000 Speaker 1: with as little transport as possible dry storage on site, 847 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,920 Speaker 1: but you need to take care that also, and will 848 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,279 Speaker 1: we protect against extreme circumstances as we now see in 849 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,239 Speaker 1: a putty difference. Is that why you describe it as 850 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,360 Speaker 1: temporary storage because you don't think this is sustainable for 851 00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,480 Speaker 1: five thousand or a million years. This is designed for 852 00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,759 Speaker 1: both hundred years and you need to do something with it. 853 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,120 Speaker 1: Then the choice of options is at this moment not 854 00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:51,320 Speaker 1: very large. Most of the people work in the sector 855 00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,400 Speaker 1: talking about the geological disposal as the preferred option. My 856 00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,680 Speaker 1: remarks then are always if it works. The other options 857 00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,360 Speaker 1: that we see now are the fully engineered solution for 858 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,320 Speaker 1: the long term, but that is not what is COVID 859 00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,840 Speaker 1: cover is is an engineered solution for a hundred years. 860 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,560 Speaker 1: Just to clarify, I can ask you why does storage 861 00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,160 Speaker 1: at the reactor or in coverra only work for a 862 00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,560 Speaker 1: hundred years? What happens after a hundred years that it's 863 00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,439 Speaker 1: no longer possible to leave these things where they are now. Well, 864 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,680 Speaker 1: the concrete that we have there of the building, it 865 00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:25,520 Speaker 1: is not for eternity. It's been designed to withstand, for instance, 866 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,480 Speaker 1: severe whether impacts tornados for a period of about a 867 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,719 Speaker 1: hundred years and all beyond. At the moment we talk 868 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,799 Speaker 1: about long term storage of this way, so we talk 869 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,480 Speaker 1: about hundreds of thousands of years. There's alstend something you 870 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,439 Speaker 1: can just uphold. You would have to have people take 871 00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,759 Speaker 1: over the responsibility time by time to upgrade the installation, 872 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,480 Speaker 1: to repair the installation so that it is still able 873 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:53,239 Speaker 1: to withstand natural impacts or malevolent impacts. And that is 874 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:57,360 Speaker 1: a very long responsibility. You could there archly, of course, 875 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,840 Speaker 1: think about engineering something that will all need that, but 876 00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,120 Speaker 1: that is something in which there is not very much 877 00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,920 Speaker 1: researched on at this very moment. So engineered free engineered 878 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,040 Speaker 1: solutions are not really taken a serious option right now 879 00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,520 Speaker 1: within the industry. And the last option that I'm now 880 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:17,280 Speaker 1: only seeing is extremely deep woreholes that we talk about 881 00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:19,400 Speaker 1: three or four or five thou meter deep. There is 882 00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,759 Speaker 1: research ongoing at this moment into that option, but it's 883 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,600 Speaker 1: still in its infancy. And for that reason, Yeah, what 884 00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:28,799 Speaker 1: what is happening comb is really is temporary storage. And 885 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:33,560 Speaker 1: what is happening in most other cases like Philipsburg in Germany, 886 00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,800 Speaker 1: or we see also in Zapper region, I mean in Ukraine, 887 00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,360 Speaker 1: or what we see in the Ciano Bill spent fuel 888 00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,840 Speaker 1: site that was set up there by Whole Tech, that 889 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:47,600 Speaker 1: is all temporary storage places and they're designed tetemporary storage places. 890 00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:51,440 Speaker 1: So something that pro nuclear advocates of and comment is 891 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:55,480 Speaker 1: that the waste that's produced by nuclear power is toxic, 892 00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,839 Speaker 1: but temporarily that these things will decay, that in five 893 00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:01,960 Speaker 1: years or million years, it will no longer be toxic. 894 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,600 Speaker 1: Whereas the mercury and lead and cadmium produced in other 895 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,359 Speaker 1: industries is toxic forever. With your response to that kind 896 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,520 Speaker 1: of argument, I worked on mercury who waste in the 897 00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:13,800 Speaker 1: Czech Republic when I was living there with my toxic 898 00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,359 Speaker 1: campaigner dreams tech Republic. That's also a headache. I mean, 899 00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,799 Speaker 1: if one headache is a headache, it doesn't mean that 900 00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,239 Speaker 1: something else is not a headache. I find it a 901 00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,600 Speaker 1: very shabby argument in the discussion. That is, yes, that 902 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:30,680 Speaker 1: is not eternal. It's a risk that endures for well, 903 00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,240 Speaker 1: the peaches in a few thousand years. In about twenty 904 00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:35,920 Speaker 1: four thousand years, it's not such an issue anymore. But 905 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,120 Speaker 1: I hesitate taking people seriously who think that that is 906 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:45,040 Speaker 1: not such a problem in human terms. Geology is an 907 00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:49,320 Speaker 1: interesting science, but it has very little relevance for a 908 00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,520 Speaker 1: human lifetime. Well, it has all over the levels for 909 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,759 Speaker 1: human lifetime, but not when we talk about times, and 910 00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,640 Speaker 1: even if we talk about low and mid level waste. 911 00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,880 Speaker 1: I mean, we've got a canty yas that need to 912 00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:03,879 Speaker 1: be kept out of the environment for about a hundred years, 913 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,759 Speaker 1: three hundred years, seven hundred years, depends a little bit 914 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,000 Speaker 1: on the isotope. Even there to three generations is a 915 00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:15,440 Speaker 1: very long time, and to guarantee political stability for those times, 916 00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:19,600 Speaker 1: guarantee that you can keep that safe is a piece 917 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,600 Speaker 1: of homework that we, of course do not only face 918 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,279 Speaker 1: for radioactive waste, also for other toxic waste. But it's 919 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:30,000 Speaker 1: it's a piece of homework of our generation that is 920 00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,560 Speaker 1: going farther than we currently are able to manage properly, 921 00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:38,920 Speaker 1: say the least. So for that reason, I mean, I've 922 00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:44,320 Speaker 1: my grandchildren are the loveliest of kids, but their generation 923 00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,600 Speaker 1: is is going to try to clean up a lot 924 00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:48,840 Speaker 1: of rubbish that we've been met. So here in the 925 00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,640 Speaker 1: United States, we've seen some nuclear power plants close with 926 00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:56,279 Speaker 1: our replacements by new facilities, for example Indian Point in 927 00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,880 Speaker 1: New York, and a lot of the power that was 928 00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,480 Speaker 1: produced by that plan is now being produced by natural gas, 929 00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:05,640 Speaker 1: which admits, of course, lots of carbon. What's your advice 930 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,560 Speaker 1: for policymakers who want to decarbonize the grid and reduce 931 00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,840 Speaker 1: our dependent on fossil fuels and needs something to bridge 932 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,160 Speaker 1: the gap between what solar and wind can provide and 933 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,560 Speaker 1: what the grid needs. What's your advice for how to 934 00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:20,520 Speaker 1: close that gap? But the first advice would have been 935 00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,720 Speaker 1: start earlier with renewables. I mean, we've been calculating four 936 00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: green peace since two thousands and three US. The first 937 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,200 Speaker 1: version the social energy revolution scenarios were the r is 938 00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:34,000 Speaker 1: between records, and that's because we have been only calculating 939 00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:39,720 Speaker 1: technical evolutions conservatively. But we are well aware that thinking 940 00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,000 Speaker 1: that way needs a political revolution. Now, if we look 941 00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,520 Speaker 1: at the scenarios that have been developed over the time 942 00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:49,359 Speaker 1: until when we stopped producing them, and we look at 943 00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:53,680 Speaker 1: more recent scenarios, the goals that we need to starch 944 00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,240 Speaker 1: to keep within the Paris Agreement one and half degree 945 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:03,320 Speaker 1: mean that we need to speed up development of truly 946 00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,920 Speaker 1: clean renewable sources very fast. Anyway, There's just no getting 947 00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,560 Speaker 1: around that. And that's point one what needs to be done. 948 00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:14,440 Speaker 1: And if I look at policies of different countries, and 949 00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:18,040 Speaker 1: I look at the policies of countries that have a 950 00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,640 Speaker 1: higher amount of nuclear in their mixes, I see that 951 00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:26,680 Speaker 1: the developments towards renewable grid is slowing down there. I 952 00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:31,520 Speaker 1: mean an example is Finland where the development of solar, 953 00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:36,560 Speaker 1: especially wind, where the heavy, huge potential has been slowed 954 00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:40,120 Speaker 1: down enormously by the fact that they were focusing on 955 00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:44,080 Speaker 1: the finalization of Holkylo into three. Now that took twelve 956 00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,720 Speaker 1: thirteen years, longer than they expected. That means also that 957 00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,280 Speaker 1: the development of renewables they are sold for about thirteen years. 958 00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,920 Speaker 1: But are you suggesting that we can use pure renewables, 959 00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,360 Speaker 1: just solar and wind as a way to provide energy 960 00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,080 Speaker 1: for the grid. Renewables is why the ninjues solar EdWay it. 961 00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:01,800 Speaker 1: I mean, but I think we can come to a 962 00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:06,840 Speaker 1: zero fully renewable energy provision in twenty fifteen. That is 963 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,120 Speaker 1: still possible. It needs a lot of a lot of 964 00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,720 Speaker 1: work with that's possible. Now you said, well, before we're 965 00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,320 Speaker 1: getting there, there might be a gap. That depends on 966 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,000 Speaker 1: the great structure you have. It depends on where you are. 967 00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:22,880 Speaker 1: We've seen similar discussions in Germany where the closed capacity 968 00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:28,000 Speaker 1: of nuclear has been surpassed with reduced capacity by largely 969 00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:32,200 Speaker 1: wind and solar, but also a good traction of biogas, 970 00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:36,000 Speaker 1: and that appears to be possible. It appeared to be 971 00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:40,640 Speaker 1: possible to phase out sensibly and phase in renewables in 972 00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,800 Speaker 1: a sensible way. What went wrong there is that there 973 00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,160 Speaker 1: has been a large hesitance to close down Cole and 974 00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,040 Speaker 1: we see now that Germany has to speed up even 975 00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:53,800 Speaker 1: it's already relatively well. No, it has slowed down, to 976 00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:56,560 Speaker 1: be very honest, that it's ready to be high development 977 00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:59,360 Speaker 1: of view energy sources. Because it has slowed down, they 978 00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,320 Speaker 1: can do it. And that is also the steps that 979 00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:05,080 Speaker 1: we see now in the in the Ukraine War and 980 00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:08,439 Speaker 1: the gas problems that the Germany is facing. We've seen 981 00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,840 Speaker 1: especially an increase in development of of their renewable resources, 982 00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:16,920 Speaker 1: and that's possible for the United States. The choice for 983 00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:21,920 Speaker 1: for fracking gas it was I think a politically very 984 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,440 Speaker 1: conscious one. I don't think at the moment it was 985 00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:28,439 Speaker 1: the most wise choice when it happened. And the fact 986 00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,240 Speaker 1: that we now see gas increasing as he was increasing 987 00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:35,240 Speaker 1: in the United States when Lucar power stations switches off 988 00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,160 Speaker 1: here and there, as you mentioned, has more to do 989 00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:39,440 Speaker 1: with past policies than that it has to do with 990 00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:44,120 Speaker 1: the decision to replace nucre by gas. And I think 991 00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:46,720 Speaker 1: that it makes sense to look at the issue from 992 00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:51,480 Speaker 1: a total grid perspective and prepare also for the coming 993 00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:55,200 Speaker 1: years of an increasing and renewable production, the grids that 994 00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:58,560 Speaker 1: can deal with it, storage that comes with it, with 995 00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,600 Speaker 1: more dispatchable verses like biogas, there will be a tiny 996 01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,240 Speaker 1: niche for hydrogen in it. There will be a good 997 01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:08,640 Speaker 1: niche for nange I suppose for for bettery storage that 998 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:11,520 Speaker 1: needs attention at this very bold Thanks very much, that's 999 01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:15,160 Speaker 1: very helpful. I really appreciate your time and your thoughts 1000 01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:18,040 Speaker 1: on the issues, so you can hear that Yon has 1001 01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:21,280 Speaker 1: a very different view about the long term dangers of 1002 01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:25,760 Speaker 1: spent nuclear fuel than Maddie did, and specifically whether storage 1003 01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:28,640 Speaker 1: at the plant where the waste is created is a 1004 01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:32,000 Speaker 1: temporary solution on the time scale of hundreds of years 1005 01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,120 Speaker 1: or a long term solution on the time scale of 1006 01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:38,720 Speaker 1: thousands of years. Dealing with storage over thousands or millions 1007 01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:42,720 Speaker 1: of years is very tricky, not just scientifically but politically. 1008 01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:45,400 Speaker 1: Where does it go? Who would accept it and why? 1009 01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,040 Speaker 1: What promises could we make to them. I spoke to 1010 01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:51,960 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Fettis at the Natural Resources Defense Council, a senior 1011 01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,200 Speaker 1: attorney for nuclear, climate and clean energy and the former 1012 01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,280 Speaker 1: Assistant Attorney General of New Mexico, and I asked him 1013 01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,440 Speaker 1: about the prospects for finding a place to keep this stuff. 1014 01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:05,200 Speaker 1: Here's what he had to say. That is a terrific question, 1015 01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,840 Speaker 1: and I love the way you asked it, because I 1016 01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:10,960 Speaker 1: think you're asking the right way as you're starting at 1017 01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:14,480 Speaker 1: what are the prospects for it? And how do we 1018 01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,640 Speaker 1: get there? And I want to give a little piece 1019 01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,120 Speaker 1: of history to your listeners that I hope will be 1020 01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:23,160 Speaker 1: really helpful in centering them on where the agreements are 1021 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:27,000 Speaker 1: and where the disagreements are. And I'll start with Yucca, 1022 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,840 Speaker 1: because everybody turns to Yucca Mountain and says, oh, it 1023 01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:34,680 Speaker 1: was a disaster, or it was all politics, or the 1024 01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,240 Speaker 1: science was bad, or all of the fights over it, 1025 01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:41,160 Speaker 1: and in RBC has a different view than reductive or 1026 01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:43,960 Speaker 1: easily breaking it down into it was one thing that 1027 01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:47,720 Speaker 1: killed Yucca. And for too long, too many industry advocates 1028 01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:51,520 Speaker 1: conflated support for the Yucca Mountain repository is support for 1029 01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:55,200 Speaker 1: any deep geological repository. That's just wrong. I'll do a 1030 01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:57,640 Speaker 1: fast history and then I hope to get you to 1031 01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:01,360 Speaker 1: a narrative that really centers you on and your listeners 1032 01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,800 Speaker 1: to these are where the agreements are and here the challenges. 1033 01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:10,040 Speaker 1: So in ninety seven, the National Academy of Sciences came 1034 01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:13,640 Speaker 1: to a conclusion that spent nuclear fuel at high level 1035 01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:16,560 Speaker 1: waste and we had both of it by seven not 1036 01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:19,560 Speaker 1: much of the spent nuclear fuel yet, but we certainly 1037 01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:21,960 Speaker 1: had high level waste at Hanford and Savannah River. They 1038 01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:24,000 Speaker 1: came to a conclusion, we have to get this stuff 1039 01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:28,840 Speaker 1: into a deep geological repository or repositories, and that's kind 1040 01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:31,720 Speaker 1: of been the consensus ever since, and it remains the 1041 01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,680 Speaker 1: consensus to this day that we can't shoot it into 1042 01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:38,600 Speaker 1: the sun, we can't send it under the See. The 1043 01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:42,840 Speaker 1: sort of holy grail for nuclear true believers was eventually 1044 01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:45,920 Speaker 1: we're going to have hundreds and hundreds of fast reactors 1045 01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:50,000 Speaker 1: that we can reprocess the waste. And that hasn't worked out, 1046 01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:52,800 Speaker 1: and in r NC sees no suggestion that it ever 1047 01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:57,040 Speaker 1: will work out. But in nine seven, Congress short circuited 1048 01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:59,920 Speaker 1: the process of the Nuclear Waste Policy Act and said, well, 1049 01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:03,840 Speaker 1: this looks really expensive and problematic. So Nevada against the 1050 01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:05,880 Speaker 1: short straw, and it's all going to go to Yucca Mow. 1051 01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:10,600 Speaker 1: And then we spent about twenty years in a ferocious 1052 01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:17,040 Speaker 1: fight with Nevada and many others objecting to how YUCKA 1053 01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:22,560 Speaker 1: was decided upon and what its technical qualities were. There 1054 01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:28,120 Speaker 1: was a one of those classically boring d C. August 1055 01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:31,760 Speaker 1: Commissions created called the Blue Ribbon Commission for America's Nuclear 1056 01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:34,840 Speaker 1: Future that ran from two thousand ten to two thousand twelve, 1057 01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:41,560 Speaker 1: and it came out with three really important again consensus 1058 01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:47,520 Speaker 1: bipartisan observations that remained true then and remained true now 1059 01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:50,320 Speaker 1: and hopefully can guide the way forward. But they've still 1060 01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:53,200 Speaker 1: left one thing off the table. Ready. This is what 1061 01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:56,040 Speaker 1: they found. They said, we've got to have a repository 1062 01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:59,800 Speaker 1: way or repositories. We've just got to have a repository 1063 01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:01,920 Speaker 1: this no other way to do this, to store this 1064 01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:04,600 Speaker 1: waste and then eventually dispose of it permanently in a 1065 01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:09,520 Speaker 1: way that's morally and technically suitable. Number Two, we're processing 1066 01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:13,200 Speaker 1: isn't going to solve things in any time in our lifetime, 1067 01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:17,720 Speaker 1: not for years. And number three, we've got to get 1068 01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:21,400 Speaker 1: consent based citing, we've got to get the consent of 1069 01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:24,400 Speaker 1: the folks of where the waste is eventually going to 1070 01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:28,960 Speaker 1: go places plural, we think, but we've got to find 1071 01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,360 Speaker 1: a way to get consent. And in Ergacy agrees with that. 1072 01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:35,200 Speaker 1: And what the Blue Ribbon Commission didn't do was talk 1073 01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:39,600 Speaker 1: about how to get consent. They didn't describe how do 1074 01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:42,080 Speaker 1: we arrive at consent and what does it look like? 1075 01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:44,760 Speaker 1: And so if you look at where we are now, 1076 01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,160 Speaker 1: this is why your question was so thoughtful because you 1077 01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:50,440 Speaker 1: asked it in the right way, which was what's the prognosis, like, 1078 01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:53,680 Speaker 1: what's the chance? Where are we? Well? Right now, we 1079 01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,960 Speaker 1: still can't get consent. That is never going to give consent. 1080 01:04:57,080 --> 01:05:00,440 Speaker 1: There's been no indication over forty years the statement consent, 1081 01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:03,600 Speaker 1: and nor should they as far as nardc Is concerned. 1082 01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:07,200 Speaker 1: They were chosen based on political weakness, not on the 1083 01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:10,480 Speaker 1: technical merits of the site. Those bed rock environmental laws 1084 01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:14,280 Speaker 1: don't apply to No state will ever be okay with that, 1085 01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:18,000 Speaker 1: and this has been bipartisan. Right now, the two efforts 1086 01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:21,200 Speaker 1: to site consolidated interim storage sites are in New Mexico 1087 01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:25,120 Speaker 1: in Texas. Both governors, as different as they could be, 1088 01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:28,520 Speaker 1: Governor Abbott in Texas and Governor Lehan Grisham in New 1089 01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:33,920 Speaker 1: Mexico have expressed ferocious non consent. We're going to keep 1090 01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:36,720 Speaker 1: ending up in this cul de sac until we deal 1091 01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:39,920 Speaker 1: with consent and really figure out how it works. We 1092 01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:42,600 Speaker 1: think Congress should pass a law removing the exemption from 1093 01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,360 Speaker 1: nuclear waste from bed rock environmental laws. Right now, the 1094 01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:49,280 Speaker 1: actual organic law that governs the nuclear industry exempts them 1095 01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:52,400 Speaker 1: from environmental laws. And we think once that exemption is gone, 1096 01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:57,720 Speaker 1: e p A consent, nationwide safety radioactive Protection standards and 1097 01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:00,760 Speaker 1: EPA in the States could set up on their own 1098 01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:03,880 Speaker 1: limits on how much and on what terms the waste 1099 01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:06,280 Speaker 1: would come, and then we can move much faster than 1100 01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:09,640 Speaker 1: what we've ever done on nuclear waste on siting because 1101 01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:13,160 Speaker 1: the power dynamics will be so deaf. So there's my 1102 01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,480 Speaker 1: explanation of nuclear waste on how we can go forward. Wonderful. 1103 01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:19,760 Speaker 1: Thank you. So your focus then is on establishing consent 1104 01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,360 Speaker 1: and setting up the situation so that things can be 1105 01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,520 Speaker 1: monitored and regulated. So is it your opinion then that 1106 01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:28,600 Speaker 1: the technical solution exists, that we can put this stuff 1107 01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:32,040 Speaker 1: underground fairly safely where he can sit for thousands or 1108 01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:34,560 Speaker 1: millions of years and mostly not harm the people living 1109 01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:37,560 Speaker 1: above the surface. That it's essentially mostly a political and 1110 01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:41,080 Speaker 1: policy issue right now. That's a terrific question. I think 1111 01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:45,160 Speaker 1: it should remain absolutely foremost in everybody's mind that this 1112 01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:48,160 Speaker 1: is a profound technical challenge like few others. I mean, 1113 01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:53,880 Speaker 1: you're a scientist and you're asking an extraordinarily difficult thing. 1114 01:06:54,160 --> 01:07:01,280 Speaker 1: Of everybody, from engineers to archaeologists and anthropologists to suggest 1115 01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:05,080 Speaker 1: that something can be safe for something beyond the scale 1116 01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:08,440 Speaker 1: of human history. It's a profound technical challenge by any measure. 1117 01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:11,400 Speaker 1: And do I think it's simple. Do I think that 1118 01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:15,480 Speaker 1: the scientific defensibility of any particular site is going to 1119 01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:18,440 Speaker 1: be a straightforward process. No, I don't. One of the 1120 01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,080 Speaker 1: things that's been most interesting as a lawyer to work 1121 01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:24,880 Speaker 1: on these issues is I get so much history from 1122 01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:28,960 Speaker 1: so many brilliant people, from geologists to physicists, to engineers, 1123 01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:32,440 Speaker 1: to archaeologists and anthropologists who looked at so many of 1124 01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:35,640 Speaker 1: these sites, from Lions to Tennessee, the Salmon site in 1125 01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:40,400 Speaker 1: Mississippi to Yucca, and what I understand, Yucca looked as 1126 01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,920 Speaker 1: a site much more promising in the eighties than it 1127 01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:45,959 Speaker 1: did by the middle of the nineties. The Nuclear Waste 1128 01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:49,240 Speaker 1: Technical Review Board. By the early two thousands, they suggested 1129 01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:51,880 Speaker 1: that the technical case for Yucca was weak to moderate 1130 01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:54,400 Speaker 1: at best, and that was a site that had been 1131 01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:58,160 Speaker 1: studied for twenty years. So I think the technical issues 1132 01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:01,120 Speaker 1: for any of this going for word, are going to 1133 01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:04,720 Speaker 1: outstrip most other decisions we make as a society. They're 1134 01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:08,680 Speaker 1: just that difficult because it is. It's a million year challenge. 1135 01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,200 Speaker 1: It's a challenge beyond the scale of human history. But 1136 01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:14,240 Speaker 1: I think the thing that is so apparent to us 1137 01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:17,960 Speaker 1: after sixty years of failure to get to even interm 1138 01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:21,000 Speaker 1: storage sites that are not just at the point of generation, 1139 01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:23,240 Speaker 1: we have interm storage sites, by the way, that are 1140 01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:27,519 Speaker 1: technically working, which is at reactor sites. They are still there. 1141 01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:30,120 Speaker 1: We haven't had a dreadful accident yet in this country, 1142 01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:32,600 Speaker 1: and that's good. And let's hope we can keep the 1143 01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:35,439 Speaker 1: NRC on its job to ensure we think, by the way, 1144 01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:39,479 Speaker 1: the NRC should do better and require the fuel get 1145 01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:43,599 Speaker 1: moved from densely packed pools into dry storage faster. That's 1146 01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:45,880 Speaker 1: a safety issue, all right. Thank you very much to 1147 01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:48,439 Speaker 1: all of our guests and interviewees for sharing their thoughts 1148 01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:51,480 Speaker 1: and the listeners were hanging on for this extra long episode. 1149 01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:54,080 Speaker 1: I hope that gave you a taste for the technical 1150 01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:56,599 Speaker 1: side of nuclear waste, what it is, how it's made, 1151 01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:59,479 Speaker 1: how dangerous it is, as well as the flavor of 1152 01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,760 Speaker 1: the police nickel complexities of solving the problem a long 1153 01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:05,920 Speaker 1: term storage. All of this goes to inform policymakers who 1154 01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:08,200 Speaker 1: have to make the really tough decisions in a changing 1155 01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:11,320 Speaker 1: landscape and a very hard to predict future. Thanks very 1156 01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:21,960 Speaker 1: much for listening and tune in next time. Thanks for listening, 1157 01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:24,680 Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and Jorge explained. The Universe is 1158 01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:28,200 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. Or more podcast from 1159 01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:32,000 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1160 01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:34,439 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.