1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 1: the thing. Russia has glittering towers and a jet set elite, 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: but grinding rural poverty too. It has one of the 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: world's great literary traditions, but throws dissenters in jail for 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: a blog post. Russia's the size of Spain economically speaking, 6 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: but is an aggressive research and actor on the world 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: stage now in defense not of communism but of tyrants 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: and theocrats. Who is Vladimir Putin the man who created 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: this new world power through force of will? My guest today, 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: Putin's foremost biographer, Stephen Lee Myers, begins to unravel that 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: question in his book The news Are. Myers is a 12 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: longtime correspondent for The New York Times, first at Moscow, 13 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: now in Beijing, and he's met Putin more than once. 14 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: When I shook his hand, I felt this immense coldness 15 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: and determination. It wasn't scary, he wasn't mean or anything, 16 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: but it was just we were there to do business. 17 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: The news Are tells the complicated history of a man 18 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: who values stability above all else, who truly believes, along 19 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: with his constituents, that he quote got Russia up off 20 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: her knees. He's created that impression in part by dedicating 21 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: a higher and higher percent of g d P to 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: military It was that money that allowed Putin in two 23 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen to invade Crimea, re drawing the borders of 24 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: Europe by violence for the first time since World War Two. 25 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: In his Wall Street Journal review of the book, Stephen 26 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: Cotkin describes the man who emerges from Myers pages as 27 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: a quote snarling stuntman, playing global poker with a wretched hand, 28 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: and presiding over a country in decline. I put those 29 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: words to Myers because that's not a full picture of 30 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: the Putin you read about in the news are. I 31 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: think you can come away from what I wrote and 32 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that Kotkin did. I think you 33 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: can read it, uh and see Putin as a sympathetic figure. 34 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: I wouldn't disagree with some of what he said, but 35 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: I wouldn't agree with all of it either, because it's 36 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: it always seems like it's about to teeter and fall apart, 37 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: like Putin can't just keep this going, you know, And 38 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: after the events with Ukraine, when we put on all 39 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: these sanctions, and sanctions really hurt and people are like, 40 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: he won't survive. One of the wheels are going to fall, 41 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: and yeah, and and yet there's a certain resilience. UM. 42 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: And Stephen Cottin I respect him mentally, UM, but you know, 43 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: people see Putin in different ways. He's almost like a 44 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: or shark test of of your views of the world 45 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: of Russia itself, US Russian relations and so forth. When 46 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: you went to the Moscow to start the job there 47 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: without a job you wanted, it is and but it's 48 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: not something that I expected or I worked for. I 49 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: didn't study Russian history or language happen. You know. I 50 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: covered the Pentagon for a number of years in Washington, 51 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 1: and this was in the nineties, and you know, the 52 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: Pentagon was busy though it was before the um the 53 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: War on Terror era, and the Pentagon correspondent did a 54 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: lot of the reporting on arms control, which for the 55 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: Soviet period was the big story really and so I 56 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: think there was a bit of a Cold War hangover 57 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: that people who covered the Pentagon understood arms control, so 58 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: they went to Moscow as their next posting or their 59 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: first posting. You know. Bill Keller was executive editor of 60 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: The Times. He followed that path. Michael Gordon h great 61 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: correspondent now with the Wall Street Journal. He did that, 62 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: So it was it was something. It was a kind 63 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: of beaten well, well beaten path. So I followed along 64 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: with it though at that time, UM I went and 65 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: it was the beginning of the Bush administration. UM. This 66 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: was a new era, and Bush talked about trying to 67 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: establish a new relationship with Russia that would get beyond 68 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: the Cold War. UM for something happened, right, Oh, lots happened, 69 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: but the but in the beginning, at least, if you remember, 70 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: UM uh Putin reached out to Bush and vice first 71 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: to call him. He made the first phone call, first 72 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: foreign leader. He didn't get through that night, by the way, 73 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: but the next morning UM Bush didn't call him back. 74 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: And Putin authorized an immense amount of cooperation with the 75 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: United States at the beginning of the war in Afghanistan, 76 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: intelligence sharing, UM in a very concrete way. I think 77 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: at that moment there was a feeling that we had 78 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: innered this common cause with Russia. UM. In those months 79 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: right after the Nini have an attack. When when you 80 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: arrived there to do the job, it's what year you 81 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: begin in? What year I was I was studying Russian 82 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: when nine eleven happened. In preparation for the job exactly, 83 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: I was still in d C when the attacks happened, 84 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: and I went back to work that day in the Pentagon, 85 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: which I had left a few months before to art 86 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: my studies and went to Afghanistan and then came back 87 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: picked up my studies and then in summer of two 88 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: thousand and two started in Moscow. What would you describe 89 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: was the relationship between the US and the Russians done? 90 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: UM was just the period as well when Putin it 91 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: was like some comment he made about, uh, you know what, 92 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: however you want to describe it of Russia potentially entering NATO. 93 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 1: He was asked and in a television interview, I believe 94 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: it was BBC uh and attend it was. It was 95 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: even earlier. It was. It was when he first emerged 96 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: on the scene as Prime Minister and then president elect, 97 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: and he said that it was something that they wouldn't 98 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: rule out. It's hard to think back at that period 99 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: when I think Putin was looking towards the United States 100 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: and NATO, UM the West generally UM for a different 101 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: kind of arrangement, a new UM, a new security infrastructure 102 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: or architecture, and um, there were you know, people will 103 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: say that there were missed opportunities on both sides in 104 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: that case. Um. So when you got there, how would 105 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: you describe the US Russian relations? They were still that point, 106 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: fairly good and there was quite a bit of cooperation. 107 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: Putin came to the ranch in Crawford, Texas, if you remember, 108 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: you know, appeared with Bush at the high school there. 109 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: So I do think that there was still a fair 110 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: bit of goodwill. Even there were a lot of business 111 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: deals starting. There was a lot of American companies eagerly 112 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: investing in the oil and gas industry in Russia. UH. 113 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: And so it seemed like there was a lot of potential, yeah, potential, um. 114 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: And then what happened is the Bush administration was very 115 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: eager to build missile defenses. This has always been a 116 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: Republican pipe drain, going back to Reagan and Star Wars. So, 117 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: with very little notice, after all of US help that 118 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: Russia had given to the United States in Afghanistan, Bush 119 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: announced that we were going to pull out of the 120 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: Anti Ballistic Missile Treaty UH and gave Putin notice only 121 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: a few days before he went ahead and did it. Publicly, 122 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: and that really embittered Putin and gave him pause about 123 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: what is really the American intentions here? You know, act 124 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: nice bushes chummy, but you know, at the end of 125 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: the day, the US sees itself as the hedge them on, 126 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: and it's is really going to control the world. And 127 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: and um and from there, shortly after, if you remember, 128 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: they went into the build up to the war in Iraq, Um, 129 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: which Russia was very much opposed to. The idea of 130 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,239 Speaker 1: overthrowing another country by military force is something that he fears, 131 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: and so he was pushing back hard against that. I 132 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: remember when we had an interview with The New York 133 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: Times had an interview with him in two thousand and three, 134 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: a few months after the invasion. He talked about the 135 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: consequences and how we didn't foresee how bad this was 136 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: going to go, and he was largely right. Well, when 137 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: you arrive at a job like that, I'm sure you're 138 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: briefed about how to go about that job, who are 139 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: your contacts? And it might not be as much as 140 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: you would think. Um. They did give me the time 141 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: off to study. That time was shortened because of nine 142 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: eleven and um and the work I did in Afghanistan. 143 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: But um, beyond that, it's it's more of a collegial process. 144 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I turned to the correspondence who'd been there 145 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: before and asked them for advice. Um, there were um 146 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: different you know, different ones said different things. They said, 147 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: you should know this person, you should eat at this restaurant. 148 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: The best advice I got was from Joe Lalibeld, who 149 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: was the executive editor at the time, who told me 150 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: not to bother reading the books by journalists. He said, 151 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: read the literature, Understand the books that people are going 152 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: to be referring to. That putting himself refers to a lot. 153 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,559 Speaker 1: It's great advice and I'm doing that now in China 154 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: reading the novels. And when you were there, did you 155 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: feel that you were being watched or you were being 156 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: so I remember when the bureau manager I asked her 157 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: this question and she said, they don't come around anymore. 158 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: First of all, when the Soviet Union collapse, so did 159 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: the KGB, and then it was disbanded, and then it 160 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 1: was reconstituted in different forms. Um. But under putting it's 161 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: clearless security services under new names have've reasserted their primacy, 162 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: whether or not we were tapped. I mean, I assume yes, um, 163 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: But I also don't think they really cared that much. 164 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: I mean, they could, they could read every thing we did. 165 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: It wasn't they like in the old days where they 166 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: were pleasing you know, which dissidents were talking to the 167 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: foreign media um, which by the way they do in 168 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: China now they watched that very closely. Who's quoted, um. 169 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: But towards the end, you know again when I win, 170 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: it was a hopeful period um, and it Russia seemed 171 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: like it was opening up. There were their debates in parliament, 172 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: they were going on UM. As a reporter, it felt 173 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: wide open um. And there was obviously the war in 174 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: Czech new which is extremely controversial and it's very sensitive. 175 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: There were restrictions on reporting there and so forth, but 176 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: it didn't feel oppressive the way it did in the 177 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: Soviet times and now where it seems to be much 178 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: more hostile environment to work in. You read a little 179 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: bit about Putin and not a great student, poor family. Uh, 180 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: how does he get that job? What happens in that 181 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: country that he rises to this position. Well, first of all, 182 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: he wasn't he wasn't a poor student. He seemed in 183 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: fact to be quite smart and quite clever. He is. Um, 184 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: but you can go to the best schools. Well yeah, no, 185 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 1: I mean he was not part of the elite. Um. 186 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: That's the thing about him. His parents, um, were survivors 187 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: of the Siege of Leningrad during World War Two. He 188 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: grew up in a city that was still living with 189 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: the effects of that, the damage literally from it. His 190 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: father worked in a train factory and his mother held 191 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: odd jobs. They were good Soviet citizens, um, but they weren't, 192 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: you know, any part of the intelligencia. He grew up 193 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: in a pretty typical Soviet experience. It was poverty by 194 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: our standards even then in the in the fifties and 195 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: sixties when he was young, not somebody you would see 196 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: a you know, at the honest that was going to 197 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: be primed for this job. He did sort of find 198 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: a purpose in school through the martial arts. You know, 199 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: he wanted to take up judo and to stick with 200 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: the judos. Then he was a young teenager, um and 201 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: uh uh so he would have been like our equivalent 202 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: of junior high school or middle school. And um, you know, 203 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: he took he took that quite seriously. So when he 204 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: put his mind to something he could do, and discipline 205 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: is what he shows when he's committed to something. There 206 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: was versed a book and then a movie that came 207 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: out that inspired him to join the KGB. It's called 208 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: The Sword in the Shield and it's a pretty propagandistic 209 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: novel about a spy who infiltrates the Nazi army and 210 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: rises through the ranks from a pretty low position and 211 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: helps win the war. Was serialized on tv UM and 212 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: this enchanted Putin as he tells it, and he um 213 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: tells the story of wanting to volunteer even when he 214 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: was um still a teenager. And then you know, the 215 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: KGB doesn't take volunteers. They they come and volunteer you 216 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: and Um. You know, there's obviously a screening process to 217 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: work in the intelligence agencies. But he understood that he 218 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: had to show some discipline and he got into university, 219 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: and he got into Leningrad State University, which was a 220 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: prestigious school, maybe not the top one. He didn't go 221 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: to Moscow. But what did he study law? Do they 222 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: have a similar system when he got a law degree 223 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,599 Speaker 1: and became an attorney. It's more you study law and 224 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: you become a police officer or or you know, maybe 225 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: a court officer or something like that. It's not a 226 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: law degree that you do after you complete your undergraduate program, 227 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 1: so assist in there is a little bit different. But 228 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: the but you know, he studied that with the goal 229 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: in mind of joining the security services, and when he 230 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: was in his fourth year, they came to him and 231 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: and said, yes, are you interested, and so he um, 232 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: he signed up. Then what happens he spends how many 233 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: years in the intelligence services there from nineteen seventy five 234 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: to nineteen ninety or ninety one. There's a little bit 235 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: gray area about when he finally resigned, UM several years. Yeah, no, 236 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: it was fifteen years UM of his early life. And 237 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: when you researched that, what kind of work was he doing? 238 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: I mean he worked at home for the first part 239 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: for ten years. He claims counter intelligence, you know, chasing 240 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: foreign spies. He claims he never worked for the domestic KGB, 241 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: which was oppressing its own people. He held kind of 242 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: bureaucratic jobs, mostly in learning grand and then after a 243 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: number of years he was finally assigned to the advanced 244 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: training courses that would put you into the pipeline to 245 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: go overseas. But he got into a fight this first 246 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: year that he was in this program, and this is 247 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: the finishing school when you when you're a spy. Is 248 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: fascinating that Soviet spies could be tripped up on basic 249 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: things like not knowing what a mortgage was because there 250 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: was no such thing. And so, I mean, we've all 251 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: seen the Americans. Now you have to really be immersed 252 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 1: in the culture to pass. Putin had studied German when 253 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 1: he was younger, so when he went to the school, 254 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: the assumption was he would be in you know, Berlin 255 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: or Bond or he would get one of the premier assignments. 256 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: But because he washed out early after one year, he 257 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: ends up in East Germany, which was an ally of 258 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, and he wasn't even in the East 259 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: German capital, East Berlin. He was sent to Dresden, which 260 00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: was kind of seen as an outpost. It was a 261 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 1: small office engaged mostly in cooperating with the Stazi, the 262 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: East German secret police. It was really just pushing papers 263 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: and reports back to Moscow. It wasn't a glamorous spying 264 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,599 Speaker 1: job at all, and he wasn't even undercover, which is 265 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: you know, like the movie that inspired him. You know, 266 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: he wasn't doing any James vonn stuff. As as he 267 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: put in himself once, how would you describe his political assent? 268 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: I mean he gets to become prime minister first, does 269 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: he have some other office before prime minister? So what 270 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: happened is when the Soviet Union fell apart. He was 271 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: in East Germany when the Berlin Wall came down, and 272 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: this was a very serious experience for him because he 273 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: watched the Warsaw Pact nations crumble top of their communist 274 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: regimes and then lurch into the West. Um He, like 275 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: many others, then retreated back to the Soviet Union out 276 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: of work essentially, and the Soviet Army. To remember, there 277 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: are hundreds of thousands of Soviet troops in East Germany. 278 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: They all had to go back um through at the time. 279 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: Yes he did. He was married before he went, which 280 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: was a requirement of being a spy, of working for 281 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: the KGB, I should say, overseas, you had to be married. 282 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: They didn't want single officers who could be tempted into 283 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: UH liaisons by other agency exactly. So his second daughter 284 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: and was born in East Germany, so they were quite young, 285 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: and the whole thing comes poppling down and he has 286 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: to go back to UM to Russia. He goes back 287 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: to Leningrad at the time and took a KGB job 288 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: at the university, overseeing students and foreigners who came to 289 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: the university. You know, not it might be a comfortable job, 290 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: but it certainly wasn't a prestigious one. He was at 291 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: this point only a lieutenant colonel. He hadn't advanced very 292 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: far in rank. He he just in It's throughout his 293 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: career he didn't seem to show a great deal of ambition. 294 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: Going back to your question earlier, you know, it's not 295 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: that he wasn't smart or wasn't capable of but he 296 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: just didn't seem to have a burning drive UM to 297 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: move up and UM. At some point through his job 298 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: at the university, he comes in contact with a man 299 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: who was one of the leaders in the democratic movement 300 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: and in Russia when the Soviet Union still existed, a 301 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: guy named Ana Totally Solbcheck, who eventually became the governor 302 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: of St. Petersburg and then after the collapse of the 303 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: Soviet Union, served for six years until and Putin served 304 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: as his deputy. And that's where he began to get 305 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: political experience. I mean, he wasn't a politician by nature, 306 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: he never has been. But he worked as a very 307 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: efficient bureaucrat essentially for subject he was in because of 308 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: his German and his experience in East Germany. He was 309 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: the liaison for the city and trying to get new 310 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: investments to come in. I mean, you remember the communist 311 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: system collapsed and you know, Russia had nothing. They didn't 312 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: have banks, they didn't know how to do basic stuff. 313 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: It was it was you know, he was put in 314 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: charge essentially of attracting foreign business to St. Petersburg, and 315 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: well apparently he did, and some people he did. Um. 316 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: You know, it was a tough time and there were 317 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: there were assassinations, there were there. There there was a 318 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: lot of um, you know, mafia type activity. Lot what 319 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: years were this, This is in the early nineties. A 320 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: friend of mine, an actress, she was gonna be starting 321 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: some kind of business over there. They were there because 322 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: of that opening, because that cleaving of that of that 323 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: economy and that market. And my friend was gonna head 324 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: over there and over like a skincare line for runching 325 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: women's who was a Hollywood actress, and we we we 326 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: I helped her, and we reached out to different people 327 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: who knew the business realities over there, and they all said, 328 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: don't do it. And they said, because they said, you know, 329 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:38,479 Speaker 1: half of the products you're going to send over there 330 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: and more we're going to fall off a truck. And 331 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: they said, and transactions and credit cards and money and 332 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: all that. They said, it's a nightmare over there at 333 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: the beginning. And it certainly was a nightmare in the beginning. 334 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: It was interesting is how many came UM and big 335 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: companies UM they want to spend the way doctor and 336 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: gamble was there and and uh, you know otis elevator. 337 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: I mean, there was this real heady period when they 338 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: made this trand edition and became a capitalist country. Uh. 339 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: You know, it was painful for a lot of Russians involved, 340 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: and the system was certainly not well equipped for it. 341 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: And it was exploited by UM, by corrupt actors both 342 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: in government UM and and in the private sector, and 343 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,479 Speaker 1: the criminality that you know is always lurking around. That said, 344 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people became quite wealthy UM and uh, 345 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: you know, the people who were willing to take that 346 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: plunge became quite rich. He become quite wealthy. That's an 347 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 1: interesting story and it's key to the question about him 348 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: and even today. Um. Early on, he was known for 349 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: not taking bribes. He was seen as an enforcer who 350 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: was very loyal to the city. He was the guy 351 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: you went to to get things done, and so people 352 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: that knew him got things done if you could get 353 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: to him, you know, it helped you succeed. You know. 354 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: Did people give them gifts? I'm sure things like that happened. 355 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: He acquired apartment as part of his job, which is 356 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: a kind of you know what it is that perruption 357 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,239 Speaker 1: or is he as a perk, you know, and it's 358 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: part of his salary. And you know, then he acquired 359 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: some other land, perhaps that was loaned to him from 360 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: people who were he was helping out. Um. But those 361 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: people who suggest that Putin has stolen billions, I mean, 362 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: they don't hesitate to you with the word of the 363 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: b billions of dollars from the Russian treasury over the 364 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: last several years of its economic ascension. Do you think 365 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: that's true? The I don't doubt um at all that 366 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: people around him, including people related to him, became very 367 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: wealthy because of their access to the decision making in 368 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: in contracts. Um, you know, is he is he lopping 369 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: tw off every contract that's signed by the government and 370 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: putting it in in a bank in in Switzerland or 371 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: somewhere else. No, I don't think so. I think it's 372 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: more complicated than that. And you know, there's the famous 373 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: stories that came out of the Panama Papers of his 374 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: childhood friend who I interviewed, um, whose name was on 375 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: offshore companies worth billions of dollars. And I had a 376 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: chance before the Panama Papers came out to interview him, 377 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: and I was struck because I was writing about a 378 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: bank that's run by a bunch of people again very 379 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: close to Putin, that's become now one of the largest 380 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: banks and in Russia, and it's an operating banks. It's 381 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: it's not a fake, it's not an off shore. I 382 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: mean they're they they were a wealthy you know asset 383 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: now and his childhood friend has three percent share um 384 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: and three point six and at the time I remember 385 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: looking it up and it was more or less worth 386 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: three hundred million dollars. And he's a cellist, very accomplished, 387 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: the musician and um and he um, No, he's I 388 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: mean he's traveled the world. He's also the godfather of 389 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: Putin's oldest daughter, and now he runs a conservatory in 390 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: music school in Petersburg that's in this beautifully renovated imperial 391 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: palace in the city. So I asked him, like, how 392 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: did you end up with the shares in this bank? Um? 393 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: And I was working on a separate story on that, 394 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 1: but I also wanted to know for for the book. 395 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: And you know, he he seemed quite absent minded about 396 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,239 Speaker 1: it or active that he was. He's he said, oh, 397 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 1: it was a complicated business. It was involved a lot 398 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: of lawyers. And it's like he didn't quite no. And 399 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I would remember how I bought shares that 400 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: were worth three hundred million dollars. But then it turned 401 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: out we learned in the Panama papers that there were 402 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: a lot of other off shores that we didn't know 403 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: about that were similar things. And so is that just 404 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: because you know, they all had the same accountant and 405 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,479 Speaker 1: they got great deals on these investments. Is he holding 406 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: it for Putin? That's certainly the implication that people like him, 407 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: if not him, Um, you know, hold assets for Putin 408 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: or his or his family. And you know, Putin each 409 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: year under Russian law, has to declare his income and 410 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: it's quite modest. I've heard people say he doesn't need 411 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: a lot of money. I mean, he has the assets 412 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: of the state, and you know, he has several homes 413 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: he can live in, and you know, he declares a 414 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: couple of apartments, including the one that he acquired when 415 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 1: he was deputy mayor at Dacha near Finland. But you know, 416 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: claims to have a pretty um modest lifestyle. Yeah, Now 417 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: when you're there, what is the lifestyle for you? Are 418 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 1: you married and you have kids? Did you raise your 419 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: kids over there? I was there with my with my 420 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 1: family the first time I went for five years, and 421 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: I had been to Russia before I moved there. But 422 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 1: the uh, the breadlines and the shortages in um in supermarkets, 423 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: you know, could I get fresh tomatoes? I mean, these 424 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,719 Speaker 1: are the things I was thinking when I was contemplating 425 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: moving there. And the fact is is that you could 426 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: by then. And that was two thousand and two, so 427 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: the you know, the Russia still has a lot of 428 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: dire poverty, especially outside of the city's um, but the 429 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: the cities have really become transformed and they've really become capitalistic. 430 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: And I was just in Moscow last for the World 431 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: Cup last summer um and which was a dream of 432 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: mine to see the world up um uh and to 433 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: see it in Moscow, and and the city is just 434 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: was glistening. Um and it's probably in its thousand year 435 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: history never been a better place to live than it 436 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: is right now. When you got sent on the job, 437 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: did you take your wife to like her favorite restaurant 438 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: and you said, honey, we're going to Moscow. The I 439 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: think that was it was um, it was an adventure, 440 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: you know, to be honest, they were signed, they were 441 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: and the for my kids it's they're really their first memories. 442 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: And um, you know they learned some Russian. Um. I 443 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: didn't put them in a Russian school. I wouldn't go 444 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: that far. But it's made my two daughters very internationally minded. 445 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: I think when you left after seven years, whose decision 446 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: was that? Well, first I went for five years the 447 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,719 Speaker 1: first time, and then I went back. Actually when I 448 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: was starting to write the book, I was almost about 449 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: halfway through the book when they had an opening that 450 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: they had, uh, they just needed somebody to fill in 451 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: for a while, and so it was I was free, 452 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: and it was an obvious choice for me to go. 453 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: So that's when I went back and I was there 454 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: almost two years that time. But then but then when 455 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,239 Speaker 1: you stopped it, were't there. That was your decision. Just 456 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: want to do it anymore? UM, you know, we rotate 457 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: and we uh you know, the foreign posts don't last forever, 458 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: so you usually go um for the times three to 459 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: three to five years, UM, depending on on the location, 460 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: on your expertise, you know, availability of other places. UM. 461 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: I quite liked it. I would have happily stayed. And 462 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: UM you know, at one point they decided they extended 463 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: me from four years to fifth year, and I said yes, 464 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: And then um, you know, they've found a new correspondent 465 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: to come and it was my time to um to 466 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: rotate out and at which point I went back to 467 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: Washington and covered the end of the Bush at Ministry. 468 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: In the way the Trump supporters, who, regardless of what 469 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: has revealed in the news about his behavior and his dealings, 470 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: they view that it's an expression of love for their country, 471 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: even to stand by the president and so forth, do 472 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 1: they have that over there as well? Does he enjoy 473 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 1: some popularity among some critical mass of people that he 474 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: has um An enormous base of popularity. UM. And there 475 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: a lot of reasons for that. Um. From the beginning, 476 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people saw him as a dynamic, 477 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: young leader. UM. If you remember, Yelson was quite sick 478 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: and and uh drunk uh at the end of his presidency. Um. 479 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: You know, Gorbachev, who was a younger leader, was seen 480 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: as ineffective and left so Union follow fall Apart. Before that, 481 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 1: there was a string of leaders who you know, died 482 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: after a few months in office. Regnev was there forever. 483 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: And then here's this young guy, UM who comes in. 484 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: He's quite dynamic, he's quite decisive and forceful. Women found 485 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: him attractive, UM, and you know he played that up. 486 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: He was the macho guy. He wasn't a drinker. You know, 487 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: he'd fly on airplanes, he went skiing. You know, he's 488 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: a sportsman. UM. That from the very beginning, you saw that, Um, 489 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: that that media portrayal of him. I mean, even before 490 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: it became a propaganda campaign. He was ready to deal. 491 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: But he was also acting force forcefully because at at 492 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: the time the war in Chechnia had erupted again, and 493 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: erupted with his rise to the Prime minister, Prime Minister's office, 494 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: which led some people to see that the war somehow 495 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: was linked to his rise, or even orchestrated in order 496 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: to let him rise. UM. But he responded quite forcefully, 497 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: and the first Chechen War in the nineties had ended 498 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: more or less in in a technically a ceasefire, but 499 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: it was a humiliating defeat for the Russians. UM. And 500 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 1: you know, Chechnya descended into a kind of lawlessness, and UM, 501 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: you know, he intervened and said, we're not going to 502 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: tolerate this, We're not going to tolerate Chechen independence and uh, 503 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: interviewing quite forcefully, bloodily. A lot of fighters were killed, 504 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: but so we're a lot of civilians, um, and indiscriminate 505 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: bombing of the capital there. But the Russian people, I 506 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: think most people in the political elite and feared having 507 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: another civil war. Um. But he said, no, we're gonna 508 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: We're gonna not only have one, we're gonna fight it 509 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: hard and we're gonna win it. And that proved to 510 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: be popular to people. And then he rode on top 511 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: of that. I mean, in his early years of office 512 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: and the oil boom where prices rose, Um, he did 513 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: a lot of macroeconomic things correctly, people will say, built 514 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 1: up reserves of the state, and and that minimized some 515 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: of the you know cut harsh cuts and swings and 516 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: services and stuff. You know, the economy picked up and 517 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: then became quite wealthy, and then people started to float 518 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: up as well, and you know, the middle middle class, 519 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: consumer class, UM began to grow. I mean it was 520 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: there before, but the nineties were so chaotic with the 521 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: instability in the in the ruble and so the black 522 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: market and nobody trusted rubles. Everybody used dollars, you know. 523 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: And and he he revived the economy in a way. 524 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: UM that built him, UM, a huge foundation I think, 525 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: to rule on even when things went badly. And you know, 526 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: he he continues to rely on that and part of 527 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,479 Speaker 1: the propaganda that he has and and the propaganda machine 528 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: is really strong now. They will constantly remind Russians, don't 529 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: forget how bad it was in the nineties, you know, 530 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: And don't forget we have enemies all around us, and 531 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,479 Speaker 1: you know NATO is going to come and take our 532 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: freedoms away. They're trying to chew off a piece of 533 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: our country. He once said, UM, he never quite says 534 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: who they is, but you know, it's the outsiders, it's 535 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: the West, it's foreigners. How dangerous do you think is 536 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: the military threat from the Russians and meeting their immediate 537 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: area in terms of UH. This concept of Rusky near 538 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: that all Russian speaking territories should be part of Russian 539 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 1: I think that's his active agenda. Now. I don't think 540 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: that he intends to incorporate all Russian speaking areas back 541 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: into the Russian Federation, but I do think he wants 542 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: to assert a special right to influence or have influence 543 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: over those regions. And that's particularly true with Ukraine. The 544 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: Russian military, like the country itself, always flat on its 545 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: back for a lot of years and um and it's 546 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: it's made progress and becoming a more modern force again. 547 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: And they've obviously kept up the strategic arsenal they had 548 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: from the Soviet times. That makes Russia a potential military 549 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: rival or threat at least UM. I mean, I think 550 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: they've fallen way behind the American military, but nonetheless they're 551 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: they're um still a capable fighting force. I think that 552 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: there's an enormous UH potential for a clash. There was 553 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: a conflict in Syria where we were bombing Russian mercenaries 554 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: and and bombed them pretty badly. They lost by some accounts, uh, 555 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: several hundred people, which of course had to be hushed up. 556 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: And you know, I think Putin is smart to not 557 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: want to have this go into a hot conflict. I mean, 558 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: no one's going to win that. And and one of 559 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: one of my old friends, who was a diplomat for 560 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: many years on the Russia desk in the State Department, 561 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: UM said, you know, we avoided war with the Soviet 562 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: Union for decades, we can do it again, Um with Russia. 563 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: I thought that was a very wise point. Um. He's 564 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: shown now with intervening in Syria that he's willing to 565 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: project force beyond the borders, which they hadn't done in 566 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: a long time, with the exception of Georgia, and people 567 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: rally behind that. And you know, there are people definitely 568 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: who look at him and they see the corruption in 569 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: the system. They feel it day to day. Um, they're 570 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: but people I think support him. And you know that 571 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: goes up and down over the over the years. UM. 572 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: I don't believe that it's eight percent um, which has 573 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: been reported to be at some point. Um. You know, 574 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: when you get that phone call from a polster saying, 575 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: you know, how do you support the president. I'm surprised 576 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: that anybody says no. Um. But nonetheless, I mean, I 577 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: think that the popularity is is quite genuine. And then 578 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: when I was doing the book, I really wanted to 579 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: try to show how that was that it wasn't uh, 580 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: it isn't just fakes. He does people who want ability 581 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,479 Speaker 1: like anywhere else. Yeah, and there are also people who 582 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: are invested in this system. You know, a lot of 583 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: his close friends and acquaintances from when he was young, 584 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: his judo partners are now two of the richest men 585 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: in Russia. So you know, the system that he's built 586 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: on a certain level is functioning. Um. I always joked 587 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: that Putin always wins. That's Putin biographer and New York 588 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: Times reporter Stephen Lee Myers. Meyer's old job as Moscow 589 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: correspondent was once held by New Yorker editor in chief 590 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: David Remnick, who arrived in right before the Soviet Union 591 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: began falling apart. Food shops said really attractive things like bread, 592 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: That's what the shop would say, and there was no 593 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: bread in it or PRODUCTI meaning groceries, and there were 594 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: none of those either. It was really stark. I loved it. 595 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: People wanted to talk to us for the first time 596 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: in decades, us being the tribe of Jerenalists, they wanted 597 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: to talk to. Hear more from New Yorker editor David Remnick. 598 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: Check out our archive that Here's the Thing dot Org. 599 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the Thing. 600 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: Stephen Lee Myers wrote the definitive Putin biography, The news 601 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,719 Speaker 1: are Putin's presidency was teed up by Boris Yelson post 602 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: Soviet Russia's first leader. Yelson was coming to the end 603 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: of his second term. Um when he was looking around 604 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: for somebody he could hand pick. But when he picked 605 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: Putin the first time, UM, that election was open. I 606 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: mean Putin only one of the vote, and you know 607 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,239 Speaker 1: it wasn't a slam dunk. And since then Putin made 608 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,479 Speaker 1: sure that the ways elections are managed, Um, there's no 609 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: uncertainty in the voting. He stripped them of the competitive 610 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: uncertainty that makes them truly democrat either in terms of 611 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: who can run and then the actual voting itself. Because 612 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: transitions in Russia have never gone well even during the Empire, 613 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: it was always tumultuous. Now in this country, you turn 614 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: around one day and Vladimir Putin is working on behalf 615 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: of Trump again. These are my words, and my kind 616 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: of glib way of framing this is that Putin is 617 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: the president of the Luxe campaign manager. Correct. During the 618 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: age summer of sixteen, I was back in Washington. At 619 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: that point I had finished the book, the book could 620 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,719 Speaker 1: be come out, and partly because of my expertise in Russia, 621 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: they asked me to help in the coverage of what 622 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: seemed to be abundant ties between the exactly and and 623 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: UM and Russia, and so we worked vigorously on that. 624 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: I wrote several stories that summer about his odd personal 625 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: affection towards Putin, who at that point he had never met, 626 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: so it was a virtual affection. And uh I was 627 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: involved in the reporting on Paul Manafort and his ties 628 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: to the Ukrainian president, and also that one of the 629 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: older guards through that that he had done business with them, 630 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: And with my colleague Eric Lich, we worked vigorously on 631 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: what appeared to be some kind of communication system with 632 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 1: a bank from Russia and the Trump organization. There were 633 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 1: a lot of pieces out there, and we worked very 634 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 1: hard to confirm them all. And I can say now, 635 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: I guess we were quite familiar with the dossier and 636 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: its various forms as it was being circulated around Washington, 637 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: and you know, I don't want to get too much 638 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: into the sourcing on all this, but we worked very 639 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: hard and this ended up becoming a story which unfortunately 640 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: had a headline that said almost the opposite of what 641 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: the story said, And if I remember exactly right, it 642 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: was FBI sees no Trump ties to Russia, um, when 643 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: in fact, the whole summer of our reporting was showing 644 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,760 Speaker 1: that they were all kind of connections. We just hadn't 645 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: pieced them together yet. And that's, you know, that's what's 646 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: going on right now. And I think even now there 647 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: are people still trying to figure out what they all 648 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: the connections add up to. So so for me to 649 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 1: get this right, you were saying it wasn't necessarily electing 650 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 1: Trump specifically, but disrupting the US electoral process. People still 651 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: debate this, and honestly debate this. Was there an elaborate 652 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 1: campaign or instruction or operation with a code name UM 653 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: to elect Donald Trump? Um? Uh? And there are people 654 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: who think that, and there are people both in this 655 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: country and in in Russia especially, who think that's ludicrous, UM, 656 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,479 Speaker 1: that there's there's no way that they could have done that. UM. Which, 657 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: of course then your conspiracy minded people will tell you, well, 658 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: that's because they're so good at it. Um. But others 659 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: will tell you the FSB is just really not that good. 660 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: Look at the assassination, the poisoning in London recently with 661 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: Scripple and the uh you know that was the g 662 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: r U, the military intelligence agency, and it was just 663 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: completely botched, almost amateurishly botched. So there are skeptics of 664 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: the view that Trump has been installed like a Manchurian candidate. 665 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: And and honestly I will say I don't see the 666 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: evidence for that yet. UM. But what is clear, and 667 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,320 Speaker 1: there's been some good reporting done on this. Then Putin 668 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: had a personal disdain for Hillary tan and blamed her 669 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: for the protests that erupted in Moscow when he did 670 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: this announcement that he was coming back as president and 671 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: the elections the parliamentary and then presidential elections around that time. UM. 672 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 1: And I was covering Hillary as Secretary of Status coming 673 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 1: in State department at the time. UM. It's conceivable there 674 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: was a secret US plan to overthrow Russia that I 675 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: didn't come across um, But I'm pretty confident that they 676 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: weren't actually orchestrating the protests in the street. They were 677 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: pretty genuine expressions of the unhappiness in the Russian electorate, 678 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: especially in the elite in the cities, the hipsters, you know, 679 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: the young people today in Russia who are quite dynamic. 680 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: And Putin blamed her for this, and he blamed her 681 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: for the Panama papers that that was meant to embarrass 682 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: him after the events in in Ukraine. But another thing 683 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: you read is Putin did all he could to help 684 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: Trump in exchange for the elimination of these sanctions. Do 685 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: you think there's some veracity to that. I don't think 686 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: you're going to find a quid pro crow on that. 687 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: I will tell you that it was absolutely the number 688 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 1: one um issue for the Russian ambassador of the United States. 689 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,879 Speaker 1: It's absolutely not surprising that that would have been the 690 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: thing that he His first task was to get these 691 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: sanctions lifted because they're hurting the Russian It dried up 692 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: the capital. I mean, it's it's almost the secondary effect 693 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 1: of it. Banks overseas. We're no longer willing to underwrite 694 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: Russian investments in dollars. So it really constrained the economy 695 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, and the economy went into 696 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,959 Speaker 1: negative growth for a few quarters and it's slowly coming 697 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: out of it. But it's involved having to been a 698 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: lot more money internally, but also finding new access to capital, 699 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: which they've done through China and some internally as well. 700 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: But they pinch and people, and in Russia especially the 701 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: elite love to come to New York, they love to 702 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,399 Speaker 1: party in in in London and other European capitals. Um, 703 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 1: they don't want to live behind an iron curtain again 704 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,320 Speaker 1: inside of of Russia. And so these sanctions, you know, 705 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: the ones against people close to him, the Judo partners 706 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 1: that I mentioned already, they're sanctioned under these They can't 707 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: you know, do business now with the United States or 708 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: with the United States affiliated companies, and you know it 709 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: can you can see how it stings. He was surprised 710 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: by the extent of the sanctions that were imposed after CRIMEA, 711 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: and he was surprised by the unanimity that they hadn't 712 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 1: in with the Europeans and Japan by the way, I mean, 713 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 1: this isn't just a solely US operation to punish them, 714 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 1: and so it's been a priority of THEIRS to get 715 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 1: these lifted. And they clearly wanted outreach. And you know, 716 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 1: if they followed the election the way we all did, 717 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,760 Speaker 1: and they saw Trump, you know, praising UM Putin and 718 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,720 Speaker 1: UM eager, it seemed to make a deal. And Mike Flynn, 719 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,879 Speaker 1: who was the first National Security Advisor, had already had 720 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: some contacts with Russians as well, so it was obvious 721 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: that they would have reached out to him to see 722 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: what kind of can we move quickly on getting these 723 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: sanctions lifted? What could it take? Did they do everything 724 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: they could to elect Trump so that they could lift 725 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: these sanctions? I think it is more of an indirect 726 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: um uh consequence of it as as the intent. I 727 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: think the original intent, and I was told this on 728 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: good authority. At least, the perception of some people was 729 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: that Putin wanted to embarrass the United States up through 730 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: the summer they like everybody else in the United States. 731 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: I think I believe Trump had no chance of winning, 732 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: and they saw that UM under Clinton there was not 733 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 1: going to be any chance of an improvement in relations, 734 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,359 Speaker 1: which I'm not sure was true. I think she might 735 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: have been more pragmatic in dealing with him once in office, 736 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: but they clearly wanted to harm her as much as 737 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: they can. And when you look at what the operation 738 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: has involved, the hacking, really um, the leaks to wiki leaks, 739 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,760 Speaker 1: the you know, the the emails, um, embarrassing stuff about 740 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: Sanders or about Clinton. Um. You know what is it 741 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 1: all add up to, you know? And and it's it's 742 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: really meant to discredit democracy itself as system tweet accounts 743 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: and Facebook accounts and all. This is new only because 744 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: it's social media. They did this in the sixties. If 745 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: you go back and look at the propaganda they put 746 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 1: out during the Vietnas wars. Um, it was leaflets, it 747 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: was books, it was posters. They supported civil rights organizations 748 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: that were challenging the government, anti war movement, um exactly. 749 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: And you know, what they were doing is essentially an 750 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,399 Speaker 1: old playbook on Facebook. And one of the things I've 751 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 1: wrestled with is that they were pushing on an open 752 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: door right. If they created these fake websites to push 753 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: fake news, you know, they they found a receptive audience 754 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 1: to it. Um and a lot of those repostings things 755 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: going viral. We're done on American soil. They muscle was there. 756 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: They just gave it a steroid and they were sort 757 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: of you know, they were exploiting the existing divisions that 758 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 1: are out there, and I think they did it quite effectively. 759 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: I don't know how much they relish this victory of theirs, 760 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: because I'm not sure it turned out quite the way 761 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 1: they imagine. One of the political advisors, very close to 762 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,760 Speaker 1: the Kremlin, just the other day was talking about the 763 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: supremacy of the Russian system, you know, why it's a 764 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 1: better form of government than you know, liberal democracies of 765 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 1: the West, trying to pretend that it was a purer 766 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: form of democracy because it wasn't cynical, which is ridiculous 767 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 1: because there's no political leader more cynical than Vladimir Putin. 768 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 1: But nonetheless, this idea that we have this veneer of 769 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 1: we're all equal, you know, and and all every vote counts, 770 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 1: and you know, our system is full of checks and balances, 771 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 1: and you know, this is the model that everybody should adopt, 772 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: you know, and they hate that, and to the extent 773 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: that they can show that, No, it's actually ugly, and 774 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's big business running things invested interests, 775 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: and there are the seething racial tensions, and you know, 776 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,800 Speaker 1: the systems rigged against people like Bernie. They play on class. 777 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: And then going back to your question about like what 778 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 1: the intent was, I think that was the intent. It 779 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: was to show that democracy isn't some um shining wiz. Yeah, 780 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 1: it's as flawed as any other system. So who are 781 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: you Americans to tell us, um, that our system is wrong? 782 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: And and you know, I think there was a sense 783 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,239 Speaker 1: of personal vengeance in it because of the way, in 784 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: his view, Clinton and the United States, the abomb administration 785 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,879 Speaker 1: Um broadly you know, discredited his triumphant return to the presidency. 786 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 1: It was personal, I think, Um, interesting, it's Obama taunting 787 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: Trump at the White House correspondence to their leverages his presidency, 788 00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: and it's Obama taunting putin the leverages putin aid Trump. 789 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: But I want to ask you in the way, you know, 790 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 1: leaders in this country often model themselves after someone else. 791 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 1: They'll say someone's a candidate Democrat or a reagular Republican 792 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 1: and what have you. And Russian history, did put model 793 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 1: himself after anybody? As far as you can say, that's 794 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: an excellent question. People will say, you know, he's a 795 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: new Stalin. Um. There will some will say he's, you know, 796 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: a new Gorbachev because he's reform minded and drop of 797 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: I mean, people have made comparisons. The one obvious one, 798 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:30,960 Speaker 1: and it was the reason I titled the book the 799 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: way I did is he's clearly reaching back to some 800 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,439 Speaker 1: sort of imperial greatness. Um. You know, people say Old 801 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: Putin is trying to recreate Communism as Soviet Union. He's not. 802 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: I mean, he's been saying that for years. Um. You know, 803 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,320 Speaker 1: he obviously sees and saw the failures of the Soviet 804 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,800 Speaker 1: Assistant and of Communism. But what he wants to recreate 805 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,360 Speaker 1: is a sense of greatness of his country, pride in 806 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,360 Speaker 1: his country, which when he was a young boy was 807 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: putting a man in space, the first country to put 808 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: a man in space. Um. It was defeating the Nazis 809 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,160 Speaker 1: uh in World War two. Um And that resonates in 810 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: Russia much more than World War two does in our 811 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 1: country for the obvious reason have been lost, the scale 812 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: of lost twenty seven million people, um. And and the 813 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 1: destruction on the homeland um uh in a way that 814 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: we didn't experience except for Pearl Harbor. But you know, 815 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: I I often think that he's not modeling himself to 816 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,240 Speaker 1: be uh Peter the Great or you know, Czar Nicholas. Um. 817 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: But I think he he looks at history as a 818 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,120 Speaker 1: sort of Schmoorgas board, you know, a buffet where he 819 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 1: will dabble a little bit that depending on his mood. 820 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: Uh you know, uh what his taste is that in 821 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 1: any given day, what the situation is. So he might 822 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: need a little Soviet nostalgia, which you whip up with 823 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: the war in particular, maybe a little bit of the 824 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 1: imperial greatness, the restoration of the church, you know, Russia's 825 00:44:55,640 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 1: exceptional place in world history as the Third Rome. He 826 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,320 Speaker 1: professes to be a believer and practices, though somewhat loosely, 827 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: it seems, but he wants to be seen as a 828 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,720 Speaker 1: religious believer. He wants to be a tough guy and um, 829 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 1: you know with the military greatness, you know, which can 830 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: evoke you know, Borodino in War of eighteen twelve or 831 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: World War two. So he picks and chooses as as 832 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: is necessary. But the combination is what makes him so intriguing, 833 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,800 Speaker 1: because I think that there's this cartoon version of Putin 834 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,919 Speaker 1: as the super villain, but in fact it's a more 835 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: complicated history there. And I think that he believes that 836 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,839 Speaker 1: he's created this um, this new Russia. They really came 837 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,440 Speaker 1: out of this, you know, horrible experience. So, I mean, 838 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 1: what he called the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the twentieth century, 839 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,360 Speaker 1: the collapse of the Soviet Union. They always say Russia 840 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: is up off her knees. You know, there was a 841 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 1: sense that she was down and and he's made her 842 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 1: great again, make Russia great again, exactly. And it's the 843 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,719 Speaker 1: same when you're looking at at a rising China and 844 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,000 Speaker 1: a more aggressive um, you know, a country that's willing 845 00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: to project power. How do you deal with that? My 846 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,799 Speaker 1: mistaken that China is more anxious to protect their power 847 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,399 Speaker 1: than the Russian. Uh No, I don't think that's true. 848 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:13,799 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that the Chinese are are very 849 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 1: anxious to project power in the areas that really matter 850 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,759 Speaker 1: to them, which is Taiwan and the South China Sea. 851 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,920 Speaker 1: Though they have opened a base in Jubouti, their first 852 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,919 Speaker 1: overseas base, and you know that, I know that the 853 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,040 Speaker 1: United States has now under the Trump administration, declared both 854 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,439 Speaker 1: of these as potential rivals. If you were president, which 855 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 1: one would you be more worried about. There's no question 856 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,480 Speaker 1: that the biggest challenge for the United States now is China. 857 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,840 Speaker 1: It's the economic challenge, it's the military challenge, it's the 858 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,160 Speaker 1: trade challenge. I mean, it's it's the issues that you're 859 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,400 Speaker 1: seeing this this administration deal with, and and Obama administration 860 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,839 Speaker 1: with dealing with it as well, and whoever comes next 861 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 1: going to be dealing with it because China is a 862 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,799 Speaker 1: country that really firmly believes in it's just any and um. 863 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,719 Speaker 1: And it's a system that is even more authoritarian than 864 00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 1: Russia is, and more efficiently authoritarian than RUSSI is, and 865 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,080 Speaker 1: that makes them more powerful. Their economy is working better. 866 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 1: I was just up on the border on both sides 867 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 1: of Russia and China looking at the trade, and it's 868 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,439 Speaker 1: staggering to see the differences, um on the Chinese side 869 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,000 Speaker 1: versus the Russian I mean, it's Russian Siberia, so it's 870 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 1: always been a forgotten region. But in er Kutsk, for example, 871 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,080 Speaker 1: now you see signs in Chinese. There's a lot of 872 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,719 Speaker 1: Chinese trade. There's a lot of timber coming in from 873 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:32,440 Speaker 1: Russia and natural resources UM, and the Chinese market is 874 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 1: just so big that it's devouring these resources and they're 875 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,160 Speaker 1: happy to have them. And you know, in the old 876 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,600 Speaker 1: days and the Chinese used to sing these songs about 877 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,000 Speaker 1: the big brother if the Soviet Union helping the little brother, 878 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: and the roles are reverse me And you know, Russia 879 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 1: and Putin are now a junior partner to China, and 880 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,080 Speaker 1: that's gonna be a very hard pill for them to swallow. 881 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 1: I think, when did you get the call that you 882 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 1: were going to Beijing? Uh? They asked me actually right 883 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,759 Speaker 1: before the election, um and um. And you're still there 884 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:01,800 Speaker 1: now And I'm still here. Yeah, I've been in almost 885 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: two years now. They put you in the bubble and 886 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 1: want you to learn from Chinese. I did try to 887 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,600 Speaker 1: learn Chinese, and I'm still trying and I will be 888 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 1: trying for many years to come. And what's the difference 889 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,480 Speaker 1: in terms of the bureau and the work that's there. 890 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,360 Speaker 1: Beijing now is much bigger. Uh, it's our biggest foreign 891 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 1: bureau outside of the two editing hubs in London and 892 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,600 Speaker 1: Hong Kong. Um. There are seven of US correspondence in 893 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:27,240 Speaker 1: in Beijing, two more in Shanghai three and uh Hong Kong. 894 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,279 Speaker 1: And how's the job different for you. People ask me 895 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: this and I'll say again that China is a much 896 00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:38,600 Speaker 1: more authoritarian place in terms of politics. There is no 897 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,359 Speaker 1: opposition person. You can go talk to um who will 898 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 1: tell you, oh, yeah, the president's wrong, that was a 899 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 1: terrible decision, or we should be doing this. I'm not 900 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: even talking about people trying to overthrow the government, but 901 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,400 Speaker 1: just people who will disagree. So you have this almost 902 00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,560 Speaker 1: conformity in the in the system, and people are very 903 00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,880 Speaker 1: afraid to speak out against that, even on seemingly non 904 00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:05,359 Speaker 1: controversial issues and demographic issues, environmental issues, you know, not 905 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:09,560 Speaker 1: the core center. I mean like Tibet or Taiwan, Tianamen Square, 906 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,319 Speaker 1: those are the three t s they say you're never 907 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,360 Speaker 1: supposed to talk about. They're heavily censored. You know, we 908 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,520 Speaker 1: have to work with virtual private networks even to get 909 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:19,440 Speaker 1: on the Internet in New York. Times has banned there, 910 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,719 Speaker 1: but so is Gmail, Facebook. I mean, the things that 911 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,719 Speaker 1: we all rely on for communicating and for work. And 912 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,160 Speaker 1: you know, I was detained when I went to a 913 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,680 Speaker 1: Tibetan region of Sichuan and and basically driven by the 914 00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 1: police out of the area and then put on a 915 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,879 Speaker 1: plane back to the regional capital because they just didn't 916 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:37,959 Speaker 1: want me there. And this happens to everybody. It wasn't 917 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,080 Speaker 1: unique UM. And you know there are regions we can't 918 00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,600 Speaker 1: go to. Tibet, the sin jong Um region, which we 919 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,160 Speaker 1: still can go to, is heavily police now UM almost 920 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 1: uh totalitarian like surveillance UM. And in Russia you can 921 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:57,520 Speaker 1: still talk to people who tell you Putin's crazy, he's 922 00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,360 Speaker 1: driving us into the ground. You know, I was in 923 00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,919 Speaker 1: er Kutsk in October on a trip up to Lake 924 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,360 Speaker 1: by Call and I just happened to walk by the 925 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:11,040 Speaker 1: headquarters of this opposition anti corruption UM fighter UM name 926 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,799 Speaker 1: Alexei Navalney, who was a very impressive figure, and it's 927 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:18,479 Speaker 1: just almost daily bashing the government for its corruption. And 928 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,080 Speaker 1: you know, he's been sentenced to short terms in jail. 929 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:23,480 Speaker 1: His brother got a three year sentence in jail, but 930 00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,960 Speaker 1: he's still speaking out. He still holds rallies and his 931 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:32,200 Speaker 1: campaign office can openly exist in this provincial town in Siberia. 932 00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:37,239 Speaker 1: Inconceivable in China that somebody could exist again as even 933 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,239 Speaker 1: as loyal opposition. I remember reading an article where they 934 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,839 Speaker 1: talked about the high speed train being built there and 935 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,200 Speaker 1: they told these people. You know, here's the timeline, and 936 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,319 Speaker 1: you've got to build this train over this enormous breadth 937 00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,279 Speaker 1: of space. And the men that were charged with this 938 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,759 Speaker 1: contracting they did it. They did exactly what they were 939 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:55,800 Speaker 1: asked to do, and they did it on time, and 940 00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:57,520 Speaker 1: they did it on budget. They were really kind of 941 00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,480 Speaker 1: emphasizing another Chinese discipline that way. And then there was 942 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,960 Speaker 1: a derailment of the trains soon thereafter. Some people were 943 00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:04,759 Speaker 1: killed and they took a couple of the engineers and 944 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,439 Speaker 1: they executed them. That people did that. I thought, let's 945 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,080 Speaker 1: bring those guys over to the m t A. They 946 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:10,800 Speaker 1: will get some results here on the second have of 947 00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:12,960 Speaker 1: the subway. I hope it doesn't take that extreme to 948 00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: get these subways to work or Amtrak to be more efficient. 949 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,040 Speaker 1: You know that the Chinese system works that way, and 950 00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,480 Speaker 1: it's it does make it incredibly efficient. They don't have 951 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:27,799 Speaker 1: to worry about even economic things um that would stymy us. 952 00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,879 Speaker 1: And so you know, you see this incredible network being built, 953 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,120 Speaker 1: their new airports, even small towns. This town on the 954 00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,520 Speaker 1: border I went to had a really glistening new airport 955 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,759 Speaker 1: town of three thousand people. The high speed trains are 956 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,200 Speaker 1: great there Um, there has been. There was that one 957 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,359 Speaker 1: really terrible accident, but by and large, it's a it's 958 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:47,920 Speaker 1: an economy that's booming, and that's what that's why I 959 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,239 Speaker 1: think it's imposing such a threat. I mean, Moscow is 960 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,480 Speaker 1: glistening as a city, Um, you know, but the rest 961 00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,680 Speaker 1: of the rest of the of Russia is still struggling 962 00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,760 Speaker 1: in a way that China you can feel it eaping forward. 963 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,480 Speaker 1: That was New York Times Beijing correspondent and biographer of 964 00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,920 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin, Stephen Lee Myers. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you 965 00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:42,759 Speaker 1: were listening to Here's the thing, m