Speaker 1: Native Land is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership with
Speaker 1: Reason Choice Media. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome.
Speaker 2: Welcome to our mini pod. You guys heard us on
Speaker 2: the last episode talking about when you're in debate or
Speaker 2: when you're presenting your position, are you trying to convince
Speaker 2: someone and or are you just having conversations? So we're
Speaker 2: going to do a really quick one on this because
Speaker 2: I think it's a good topic and it was Angela's idea,
Speaker 2: so let's talk about it.
Speaker 3: It Actually it came from something you said, I want
Speaker 3: to Can we do a wrap around?
Speaker 4: Yes, let's do it.
Speaker 3: When here tries to convince people of their position, raise
Speaker 3: your hand, not me.
Speaker 4: Both, y'all really okay listening Angela and Andrew are raising
Speaker 4: a hand.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: Sorry, I think I used again. This is what I'm
Speaker 1: trying to disassociate myself from the convincing part. But I
Speaker 1: do I think I still argue with the with the
Speaker 1: idea of winning people to my perspective, yeah, I think otherwise,
Speaker 1: what's the point. Yeah, I definitely don't want to be
Speaker 1: heard that much for the point of just wasting the space.
Speaker 1: So I do I do think I when I argue,
Speaker 1: I do think I argue with the intent of bringing
Speaker 1: more people to my point of view the way I
Speaker 1: see things, and and and and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: But I will tell you there are conversations that are
Speaker 1: had where it really is just about understanding better where
Speaker 1: somebody is and maybe letting them understand my perspective better,
Speaker 1: but not moving them necessarily to my side. So but
Speaker 1: I put that in the range of like conversation, and
Speaker 1: then I put debate and argument in a different category.
Speaker 3: What about you, Angelau, yikes, I am. As soon as
Speaker 3: you said that, I'm like, oh, I really do have
Speaker 3: a problem here.
Speaker 5: I am. I think that I'm always.
Speaker 1: Every aspect of your life.
Speaker 3: I'm not debating either, But just like I think, I
Speaker 3: think it comes from two places. One is, I do
Speaker 3: think that I want to feel heard, But more than
Speaker 3: feeling hurd I want to feel understood. And so I
Speaker 3: don't know that I'm trying to convince people to think
Speaker 3: like me as much as I am trying to convince
Speaker 3: them to understand my perspective. So one of the things
Speaker 3: my mom has always said to me is one of
Speaker 3: the greatest skills we can learn in life is perspective taking,
Speaker 3: and so I think that I have honestly spent more
Speaker 3: time trying to give my perspective and get empathy, support
Speaker 3: understanding for that than I have placed the same energy
Speaker 3: in doing that for other people, which is why my
Speaker 3: mom has probably repeated that to me tons and tons
Speaker 3: of times. So I need to work on that part
Speaker 3: of it. But I do also I'm competitive and I
Speaker 3: do like to win a debate as well, even if
Speaker 3: it means me ow in the debate.
Speaker 5: So I think I think it's both. It's both.
Speaker 2: I'm here tip experience either of you that way. I
Speaker 2: say that, Yeah, I mean I say for me, I'm
Speaker 2: never trying to convince anybody. It's like I just don't
Speaker 2: have space in my spirit for that. And I also
Speaker 2: consider when that is happening, there's some level of intellectual
Speaker 2: violence there. If I'm telling you this is how I
Speaker 2: feel like I would say what you said, Angela, That's
Speaker 2: all I ever asked to be understood. If you understand
Speaker 2: me and you disagree, we Gucci, it's okay. You don't
Speaker 2: have to agree with me if you have allowed me
Speaker 2: the space, if we've had a healthy exchange of ideas
Speaker 2: and ideology.
Speaker 4: I'm good with that.
Speaker 2: I have an endless, insatiable thirst to learn to understand things.
Speaker 2: That's really all it's ever about for me. If I've
Speaker 2: learned something, I want to share it. When people try
Speaker 2: to convince me of something, I can't lie like, it
Speaker 2: starts to bother me, you know, because it's it's if
Speaker 2: I'm saying now, now, if I'm neutral, and you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: let me pull you to my side. Maybe, But if
Speaker 2: I've said this is how I feel, and then somebody
Speaker 2: else is trying to say no, like this is your
Speaker 2: position on this is wrong.
Speaker 4: It's like, Okay, I hear you, but then I've moved on.
Speaker 4: You know, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know what it is, but I don't like
Speaker 2: it like I because you cannot convince me of something
Speaker 2: that I don't believe in, or that I believe to
Speaker 2: be false or I believe to be wrong. Andrew, you
Speaker 2: and I have had conversations where, well, you guys have
Speaker 2: seen Andrew throwshade. But we'll be talking and I'll say, well, Andrew,
Speaker 2: this is my perspective, and I'll go on and on
Speaker 2: and on and on about something. And Andrew is very
Speaker 2: thoughtful He's like, hmmm, how incredibly one dimensional.
Speaker 4: That's like.
Speaker 2: You.
Speaker 4: That's a verbatim quote.
Speaker 5: That is a verbat Jesus Lord, yes today.
Speaker 4: But I don't experience you trying to convince me. You know,
Speaker 4: you're just like, what.
Speaker 5: Do you mean?
Speaker 1: I don't think I do. When I understand a person's position,
Speaker 1: like if they like you've stated where you are, I
Speaker 1: think my debating is more in the space where there
Speaker 1: is room for conversion, like oh you, and then if
Speaker 1: there isn't real I will tell you what I've defaulted to,
Speaker 1: which is is it possible that a person could reasonably
Speaker 1: think this? Like is the question I would posit to someone, like,
Speaker 1: all right, so that I can make sure that I'm
Speaker 1: not out of space? Is it possible? Is it reasonable
Speaker 1: to conclude that a person might might think this, might
Speaker 1: have a reason to conclude that based off of what
Speaker 1: the interaction has been. And if I can get you
Speaker 1: to say yeah, I think that's possible without without cutting
Speaker 1: me in the next verse, then I'm like, Okay, that's cool.
Speaker 1: Then we can sit there. But if I'm still looking
Speaker 1: at you and you're looking at me like I'm an
Speaker 1: out of spacer, like okay, it just doesn't have a
Speaker 1: logical landing for me. Then that becomes hard because I
Speaker 1: keep going until like, it seems like it's logical that
Speaker 1: a person could conclude that. But if you think that
Speaker 1: I'm hearing out of space and that there's no reason
Speaker 1: for me to have arrived at what I've arrived at
Speaker 1: by way of conclusion, then you you out of space.
Speaker 5: Well here's my question.
Speaker 3: Do you guys think this is one place where I
Speaker 3: feel like we've run up against this ideology, like as
Speaker 3: a bump, as a point of tension for us. Often
Speaker 3: on the pod there are moments where I feel like
Speaker 3: Tiff is like, well, I don't know why they're going
Speaker 3: to get the undecided voters like these people and if
Speaker 3: they still don't decide that they have decided, And I'm like, ish,
Speaker 3: how we gonna win an election if she don't convince
Speaker 3: somebody these undecideds. So I think one of the places
Speaker 3: where I see that made manifest the most is when
Speaker 3: we're having the conversation about how they grow a base
Speaker 3: or convince an electorate that this is the right side
Speaker 3: of the issue, because if you don't grow your position,
Speaker 3: there's only so many votes you can count. That's limited,
Speaker 3: So then what do you do if you're not convincing
Speaker 3: anybody to come along with you.
Speaker 2: I don't believe there are that many undecided voters, so
Speaker 2: I think we're already in disagreement at the premise of it.
Speaker 2: I think if you're undecided at this point, you're giving
Speaker 2: yourself permission to vote for Trump or you're trying to
Speaker 2: find a reason to vote for Vice President Harris. And
Speaker 2: I think the reason why those things exist are rooted
Speaker 2: in racism and misogyny every single pannel I've seen, and
Speaker 2: I personally don't know how, and nor am I interested
Speaker 2: in meeting a bigot in the middle or trying to
Speaker 2: convince a bigot anything about me my humanity. That's democracy.
Speaker 2: This election, I have found it to be an exercise
Speaker 2: in futility.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 4: There was a version of me who likes to debate.
Speaker 2: You know, in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, when I first
Speaker 2: started on television, I used to engage in these debates.
Speaker 4: And I'll tell you I don't have the energy for
Speaker 4: it anymore.
Speaker 2: It's just not it's not worth my time to be like,
Speaker 2: maybe somebody else can do it, but I don't want
Speaker 2: to do that. I don't even like preaching to the choir.
Speaker 2: You know a lot of the times we're talking our audience,
Speaker 2: they know a lot of the things we're saying right now.
Speaker 1: I think this is so emblematic. I think this is
Speaker 1: so us. I think it's so true. Everything Tiffany is
Speaker 1: saying is predictable as.
Speaker 5: Far as he doesn't mean it that way.
Speaker 1: He just means as.
Speaker 3: The one person here who's run for office, and we
Speaker 3: know this is actually where this surface is for us.
Speaker 3: I think most often because I'm like tiff you cannot
Speaker 3: win an election.
Speaker 2: Like yeah, like convincing Angela, you try to convince for sure, So.
Speaker 5: As the resident run for what, like, how do you
Speaker 5: grow a base if you're not convincing nobody?
Speaker 1: Well, part of it. We have to suspend with our
Speaker 1: own beliefs about some things in order to grow a base,
Speaker 1: because if we approach every person with the assumptions around
Speaker 1: why it is they are where they are on this thing,
Speaker 1: there's no hope with it. And so even though I
Speaker 1: sometimes enter a conversation with a strong belief about where
Speaker 1: I think somebody might land, I have to be willing
Speaker 1: at some level to say, you know what, with words
Speaker 1: that come out of their mouth. Some of it has
Speaker 1: to be believable, like at some point something in them
Speaker 1: is still telling them like, I'm on fenced about this,
Speaker 1: and maybe there is a if you're on fence about it,
Speaker 1: then there has to be a way off the fence.
Speaker 1: Can I present to you a picture that lets you
Speaker 1: off the fence? And I think for most people, away
Speaker 1: off the fence is by not making me feel stupid,
Speaker 1: not making me feel like I am problematic because I
Speaker 1: was on the fence to begin with. But even if
Speaker 1: I felt that at some level, even if I felt
Speaker 1: that that, I've got to give them a ramp off,
Speaker 1: because nobody wants to be humiliated, and nobody wants to
Speaker 1: be browbeat to the position that they're in. They want
Speaker 1: to get there or they want to feel like they
Speaker 1: have gotten there through their own sovereignty. That that I
Speaker 1: own me and I own the way I get to decide,
Speaker 1: and that takes a little bit more patience, and it
Speaker 1: requires the suspension of our own beliefs sometimes.
Speaker 3: And judgment probably suspended Jack, I got judgment and frustrated now.
Speaker 3: I think when it comes to local different primaries, but
Speaker 3: when it comes to this election, I have all the
Speaker 3: things you said we shouldn't have for undecided voters. If
Speaker 3: you on the fence about in this election, I don't
Speaker 3: have the patience, the time to desire none of that.
Speaker 3: Somebody else. That's somebody else.
Speaker 1: And they're honestly, you've gotten there. Honestly, a lot of
Speaker 1: us have gotten there. Honestly, it's because we've watched these
Speaker 1: people turn themselves into pretzels trying to be undecided when
Speaker 1: you're like, we know what this is at the end
Speaker 1: of the day. And I guess the part I'm saying
Speaker 1: is that even if I feel like I know where
Speaker 1: this is at the end of the day, I may
Speaker 1: not tell you that I think think that you're an
Speaker 1: unwinnable and hopeless case. We're gonna give you a way
Speaker 1: off at some level, and I hope you take it.
Speaker 3: I like everything you said until the end because to
Speaker 3: me it felt like there there was something about it
Speaker 3: that if I feel like I can't convince then I
Speaker 3: have lost hope. I'm not talking about somebody that's just
Speaker 3: like you talked about pretzels. I hate pretzels. You're not
Speaker 3: gonna convince me to like pretzels. There's uh, it's pointless. Exactly,
Speaker 3: you know, but like, but that's a completely different thing
Speaker 3: than you know, someone who's like, well, I just don't
Speaker 3: understand why I gotta pay reparations if I didn't do
Speaker 3: the thing right. I think that I can't convince you.
Speaker 5: You don't know what I'm gonna say.
Speaker 1: I think I just wanted you to say. I was
Speaker 1: responding to this moment, which was these Trump voter you
Speaker 1: know these.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was gonna get there.
Speaker 3: I was gonna get there, these that I that maybe
Speaker 3: you just don't know. So I feel like the convincing
Speaker 3: is because you need to be educated. And I don't
Speaker 3: want to do it to your point in a browbeating, judgmental,
Speaker 3: super hypercritical, or the way to humiliate them.
Speaker 5: But I do want to be like, well, can you
Speaker 5: help me explain this?
Speaker 3: Like, we did this interview on Breakfast Club with Byron
Speaker 3: Donald's and he was getting like dragged for this Jim
Speaker 3: Crow comment he made, which I thought was ridiculous, like
Speaker 3: you wouldn't have been able to marry your wife and
Speaker 3: Jim Crow right, So but I was like, well, can
Speaker 3: you explain what you meant?
Speaker 5: Now?
Speaker 3: He explained it, and I was like, okay, that position
Speaker 3: I actually understand, and part of it I agree with.
Speaker 3: But at the end of the interview he says make
Speaker 3: America great again.
Speaker 5: I was like, so, back to Jim Crow, we go, huh.
Speaker 3: We just so he's a idiot, thank you.
Speaker 5: I I agree with that.
Speaker 3: But to me, I had to go through the exercise
Speaker 3: of seeing where your where your logic led you, or
Speaker 3: maybe it's not your logic, maybe it's you're shorter end
Speaker 3: of the line, or maybe it's not your shorter than
Speaker 3: the line. Maybe it's your opportunism. I don't know, but
Speaker 3: I want to hear it all out for myself.
Speaker 2: I was getting wrong with that. I think I've heard
Speaker 2: it all from my example. I think that's that's part
Speaker 2: of the talent. Yeah, pretty much like I grew up
Speaker 2: in Atlanta. I know how southern white folks think. I
Speaker 2: was born in Ohio. I know how min and western
Speaker 2: white folks, and I don't have that kind of curiosity.
Speaker 2: And for self hating black people, I definitely don't have
Speaker 2: no curiosity.
Speaker 5: We gotta convince some of them were.
Speaker 4: On that note, we gotta convince Nick. Let us go
Speaker 4: a few.
Speaker 1: Gotta go, all right, I got zero moments left for
Speaker 1: any of this.
Speaker 3: I want to talk about this some more, especially at
Speaker 3: the end of this election. Hopefully the another mem is
Speaker 3: what we wanted to be and we can talk about
Speaker 3: who she ended up convincing. We can maybe see that
Speaker 3: in exit pulling data. I love it five seconds from now.
Speaker 3: Yeah hopefully all right.
Speaker 2: Thank you guys for tuning into this mini pod. Be
Speaker 2: sure to like, leave us a review and tell your
Speaker 2: friends We drop mini pods every Monday. Thanks for tuning in,
Speaker 2: and we'll see you back here next Thursday.
Speaker 1: Native Land Pod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership
Speaker 1: with Resent Choice Media. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
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