1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show, fellow conspiracy realists. We're diving 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: into a bit of hidden history. We've been on sort 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: of a George Washington kick. I think it's safe to 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: say by the time this comes out. Yeah, I you know, 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: it's weird when we think of spies, we think of 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: like James Bond, the World's worst spy, or we think 7 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: of the Cold War. But it's weird that growing up 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: we don't learn much about the colonial spies. 9 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was a major thing, go I think 10 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: we get into in the episode, just the fact that 11 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: everybody's speaking English. It was probably it probably made it 12 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:42,639 Speaker 2: really both easy to spy but then also really difficult 13 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 2: to know who was a spy. 14 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: There's also something that's just kind of interesting about colonial 15 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: spying or like the early days of spycraft, especially when 16 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: you're a buff for this kind of stuff like we are. 17 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: And you've probably heard of Benedict Arnold, one of history 18 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: only a few bad bends, But have you heard of 19 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: Agent three fifty five? 20 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 2: No, Well, then listen up. 21 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is 22 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 23 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 3: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. 24 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,279 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. 25 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: Our compatriot Nole is on the road, but we'll be 26 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: returning at some point in the future. They call me Ben. 27 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: We are joined with our super producer Paul, Mission Control decad. 28 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for saving the show as always, Paul. Most importantly, 29 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: you are you. You are here, and that makes this 30 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. Matt. Today we 31 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: are taking a journey back in time. 32 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: Yes, time traveling again, that's one of my favorite things 33 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: to do. 34 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: That's true. That's true. And of course there's that great 35 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: point that people make sometimes that we're all time travelers. 36 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: We're just moving in the toward the future. One second, 37 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: per I don't know. 38 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 2: Second, Yes, it's definitely at an even clip. 39 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: Well, you know what, this might be an episode, This 40 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: might be for another episode better suited to a different 41 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 1: line of thinking. But time is you know. 42 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 2: It's all relative. 43 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, as doctor who said, what was it? Timey 44 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: whimy stuff? Are you a doctor who? 45 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 2: Fan? 46 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,679 Speaker 1: I No, I totally thought you were going to say, 47 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: doctor Who's That's the first thing I did when someone 48 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: told me about it as a kid. 49 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 2: It's a it's a great show, and I have seen 50 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 2: several episodes. I'm not like a you know who, a 51 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 2: Doctor Who had I don't know what the Whovianovian yeah 52 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 2: who who enthusiasts. 53 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: Yep, oh right right in let us know what Doctor 54 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,839 Speaker 1: Who fans are called, or what they self describe as 55 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: our time traveled today takes us back to the beginning 56 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: of the United States, back to a time when it 57 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: was the odds were looking pretty dicey for the colonists, 58 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: the would be Americans, right. 59 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, they decided to buck the whole system and fight 60 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 2: their controllers. Yeah. They went to a bold move. 61 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: They went rage against the machine. Right. 62 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. 63 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: So this this is a story that you and I 64 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: stumbled on a long, long time ago in a different episode, 65 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: and it's surprised. I don't know about you, Matt, but 66 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: it surprised the heck out of me. 67 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. The the the fact that espionage dates back 68 00:03:54,560 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 2: this far and was as complicated as were this story 69 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: we're going to talk about today, that was astounding to me. 70 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. You hit it. You hit on the word of 71 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: the day or a word of the day, espionage, right, 72 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: Espionage is a tale as old as time or in 73 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: the case of this country, at least as old as 74 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: the state. Espionage actually predates the actually colonial espionage predates 75 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: the existence of the United States. This sort of stuff 76 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: occurred when the idea of what we now call the 77 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: US was nothing more than a weird twinkle in the 78 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: eyes of various founding fathers and would be rulers of 79 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: a new nation. Most of us associate the concept of 80 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: spies and spycraft with works of fiction, right, you know, like, 81 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: what are some of your favorites? 82 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, well, I mean you have to go back 83 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: to Double O seven, I think the original at least 84 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: for me. 85 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: Which is weird because technically wouldn't he be the seventh one? 86 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. 87 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: But yeah James, right. 88 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. And characters that you find in stories like 89 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 2: Mission Impossible, I remember were really cool, some of the 90 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 2: concepts in there. And then if you go There's There 91 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: were some Netflix shows back in the day that were 92 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 2: surrounding espionage around World War Two that I found the 93 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: most fascinating because of the technology they were dealing with 94 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: at the time and the stakes being so high as 95 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: they were. I think that's why I found that to 96 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: be the most fascinating, although I can't tell you the name. 97 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: Of the Steaks is it s T A. K Ees Right, 98 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't just the spy show featuring like these amazing 99 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: ribbis and. 100 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: T bone stacks of them, just stacks of. 101 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: Them, and then also spying. I would watch that show. Yeah, 102 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: I know what you're I kind of know what you're 103 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: thinking about, if not the specific episode the trope, because 104 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed the television show The Americans. Oh yeah, 105 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: which have you seen that? 106 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: Yeah? 107 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: So that that show gets a law of often for 108 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: being a I don't know about an entirely realistic depiction, 109 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: but a pretty good depiction of how deep cover sleep 110 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: agents would actually work. So we see spycraft and espionage 111 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: in all sorts of works of fiction. But we also 112 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: know that strange real life accusations of spine pop up 113 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: every so often in the news cycle, and usually when 114 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: they pop up, they disappear pretty quickly. 115 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like a diplomat will get in trouble, but it's 116 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 2: just some unnamed diplomat and then it goes away. 117 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: Right right. Or three hikers will get caught crossing the 118 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: border into Iran, three American hikers and then they'll be 119 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: arrested as spies. The DPRK accuses people of being spies 120 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: fairly often. 121 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,799 Speaker 2: Does it ever make you wonder if there are spies 122 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: caught internally within the United States, but we just never 123 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 2: hear anything about it. Oh, sure, they just disappear, basically. 124 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: Like there's the case of Jonathan Pollard, an American who 125 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: spied for Israel was and was caught. I think he 126 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: was sentenced to life in prison for violating the Espionage Act, 127 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: but later surprised he didn't have to do that. I 128 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: think it was after thirty years of incarceration he was 129 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: released on November twenty, twenty fifteen. So some spies have 130 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: been exposed and then serve their time, or somehow not 131 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: been killed and have been able to continue living their lives, 132 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: so it is possible to get away with it. Your 133 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: odds are not very good. They were especially not that 134 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: great in the Revolutionary War, because in the Revolutionary War 135 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: on the colonial side, your odds in general weren't spectacular. 136 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 2: No, not at all. 137 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: So the Revolutionary War, we all kind of know what 138 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: that is. They call it, I think the War for 139 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: American Independence in other countries, but down here, this is 140 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: the Revolutionary war. We're very, very self important about it, 141 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: and I think we've earned the right to be. The 142 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: seeds of democracy had already been planted in the colonies. 143 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: People were already thinking about becoming an independent country well 144 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: before seventeen seventy six. The war went from seventeen seventy 145 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: six to seventeen eighty three and died by the Treaty 146 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 1: of Paris. And when we look back at this war 147 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: and the nation created, it's incredibly important to remember that 148 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: the government that was put into place, or I guess 149 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: that existed on paper, was see like it was seen 150 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: like a crazy thing. It seemed to be an insane notion. 151 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: How could you rule without a case? How close did 152 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: George Washington come to becoming the king? Right well? 153 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 2: And a lot has been said that the presidency itself, 154 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: the way it was created, was specifically to prevent any 155 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: one man from becoming king because of you know, the 156 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: way the way the country was set up, with dividing 157 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 2: powers up and not calling the president certain things, not 158 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 2: referring to them in that way. It was it was 159 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 2: an active move to move away from a monarchy. 160 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: Right right again, that's the that's the official narrative, and 161 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: We have an old episode on the Unofficial Narratives that 162 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: you can check out, but it's several years old now, right, 163 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's back in the day. So they wanted 164 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: something different. They did not want to practice resource extraction 165 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: for the benefit of the kingdom across the pond. They 166 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: did not want to pay taxes. They were very much 167 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: against that. And they they knew that due to the 168 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: huge stretch of the Atlantic Ocean, even the world's most 169 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: powerful naval force wouldn't be able to win the war easily. 170 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: The problem was that even before the war actually broke out, 171 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: the US forces knew their odds of success were dangerously, 172 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: dangerously low. And the colonial leaders, even the really optimistic ones, 173 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: knew that if they were able to win independence, they 174 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: would be literally paying for it in blood. 175 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. And there's an historian, David McCullough who wrote a 176 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: book called seventeen seventy six which we would recommend. The 177 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 2: Americans suffered terrible, just horrendous losses, roughly twenty five thousand 178 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 2: casualties in all, or roughly about one percent of the 179 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 2: entire colonial population, which if you think about that in 180 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 2: like equivalent terms to today, that would be as though 181 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 2: if there was a modern war or within the United 182 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 2: States on American soil that cost three million United States citizens' lives. 183 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 2: That's an intense thought. 184 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: And as mccolla says, those who have been with Washington 185 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: and who knew what a close call it was at 186 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: the beginning thought the outcome, the ultimate outcome of the 187 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: Revolutionary War was a little short of a miracle, the 188 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: kind of thing that makes you say, for instance, hey, 189 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: I'm not exactly a spiritual person, but is this a 190 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: coincidence or is this destiny? Because so much stuff had 191 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: to go right. Modern historians have speculated that if the 192 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: colonists hadn't caught a number of key breaks, the rebellion 193 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: might have been crushed. American colonies would have remained under 194 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: the rule of King George, and the ringleaders would have 195 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: been executed in horrific ways. The people probably would have 196 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: been forced to pay a punitive tax. 197 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 2: Huh. 198 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: It would have made this situation increasingly unsustained able. But 199 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: the war occurred, and as you know in the Hamilton 200 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: musical that comes up whenever we do Reary War episode. 201 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 2: Uh. 202 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: The there was this huge perception that the US forces 203 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: were outmanned and outgunned. 204 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: I think it's outgunned, outmanned, and I don't remember the 205 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: next part. There's actually a lyric in there, right, I 206 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 2: don't which song is that? Right hand man, right hand man? 207 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: Oh man, I need to listen. It's been almost a 208 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 2: year since I think it's right in the soundtrack. 209 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll have to listen to it after this or Paul, Uh, 210 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: do you want to just play it low under the 211 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: entire Oh wait, we'll get sued. 212 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, sorry, I heart So. 213 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,479 Speaker 1: It is true that the United Kingdom had certain advantages. 214 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: It's not so much the number of people they had, 215 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: but it's the experience those people had and the organization 216 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: or discipline that the British soul was possessed. 217 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: But in the end it kind of was one of 218 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 2: the things that led to their downfall, not necessarily, but 219 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 2: because of the use of grilla tactics. 220 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: Oh that's right, Yes, so we've talked about before they 221 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: had Napoleonic warfare versus grilla tactics. Yeah, that's a good point, Matt. 222 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: At the height of the war on the US side, 223 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: around eighty thousand members of the Continental Army or militia 224 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: members were active in service oddly enough, on the British 225 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: side there were only about fifty six thousand British soldiers, 226 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: but they were joined by thirty thousand German mercenaries known 227 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: as Hessians. And in Sleepy Hollow, the Johnny Depp version 228 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: of it, that's the Christopher Walkin's character is a Hessian 229 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: at the very beginning. 230 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's the headless horseman. 231 00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: Huh wow. 232 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 2: You're saying it's at the beginning of the movie, right, 233 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: you're saying it's an allegory of some sort. 234 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, perhaps, or perhaps Hessians were just seen 235 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: as scary characters due to their the role they played 236 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 1: in this war. But the would be Americans, which I 237 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: guess we have to call the colonists at this time, 238 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: had some surprising advantages. 239 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. First, the main one is that they're fighting in 240 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 2: a place that they know, they know the terrain, they 241 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: know at advantageous spots and locations. They're on home turf, 242 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: and they didn't have to mess with any kind of 243 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: real logistical things with supply chains, especially ones that would 244 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 2: cross a major ocean like the Atlantic, the way the 245 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: British had to do in the Germans. But second, they 246 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 2: could easily in theory, replenish their ranks if soldiers died, 247 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 2: because they could just get some more people there. Now, 248 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: those people wouldn't be trained necessarily or even ready for 249 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 2: battle in any way, but you could put bodies on 250 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: the front lines or whatever lines you. 251 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: Required, something to put in front of the cannons. Right, Yes, 252 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: it is you're you're absolutely right. That supply chain problem 253 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: was huge, and supply chains are still a huge problem 254 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: in modern warfare today. 255 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, logistics of warfare is probably I mean, the biggest 256 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 2: guns are important. But if you don't have a good 257 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 2: supply chain to not only feed people and get supplies 258 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 2: and other things that you need to your the human 259 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 2: beings that are there performing the work, you're screwed. 260 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. And then on the colonists side, at this time, 261 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: there's a big question of finance. How on earth do 262 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: we pay for this? Right? 263 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we just talked about that in our live show. 264 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: That is true. That is true through the creation of 265 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: the first Central Bank. 266 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 2: Thanks Hamilton, what a creative name. 267 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: So they there were people who said, should we abandon 268 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: all hope? Is this a not only horrific endeavor but 269 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: ultimately a fruitless one. It was clear that the war 270 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: would be a close thing, possibly a losing conflict for 271 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: the Americans, with brutal consequences for anyone, not just for 272 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: anyone active in the rebellion, but anyone who wasn't an 273 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: active British loyalist. They would the population would bear the punishment. Right, 274 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: This thing didn't succeed, but unbeknownst to most, the colonists 275 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: still had a few tricks up their sleeves. 276 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. One of the most important aspects of the 277 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 2: colonial military was this extensive spy network that they had 278 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 2: been building and were continuing to build. It was this 279 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 2: huge apparatus that in its own way, became as important 280 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: as the weapons, the cannons that the colonists had to 281 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 2: fire at somebody, because they had people on the inside everywhere. 282 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 2: In fact, this intelligence network was so stinkin good that 283 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 2: even today, mysteries about this time and this network remain unsolved. Ooh, 284 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 2: you know what that sounds like. 285 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: Time for a word from our sponsor. 286 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 2: That's exactly what it sounds like. 287 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. So intelligence work is fundamentally American. 288 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: The creation of this nation is inseparable from the creation 289 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 1: of this nation's intelligence network, military and civilian leaders of 290 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: the American Revolution didn't just use espionage, covert action, counterintelligence, deception, 291 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: and cryptanalysis to offset the British Army's advantage. They used 292 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: it very well. They were very very good at it, 293 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: and the techniques they employed were pretty sophisticated even by 294 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: today's standards. 295 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and when the history books look back at 296 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 2: the things that the Americans did the heroes of the Revolution, 297 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: a lot of times they'll look over names like Agent 298 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 2: seven to eleven, which is hilarious when they're talking about 299 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 2: people like John Bolton or George Washington or perhaps Patrick Henry. 300 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 2: But they should because as we're gonna as you're gonna 301 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 2: learn here, as we learned, they were as important or 302 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: integral to the effort as any of those big. 303 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: Names that we just mentioned, right right, Agent as. It's 304 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: gonna crack me up. And John Bolton different John, not 305 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: the John who's currently serving in the US now. Correct, 306 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: He's not some ancient centuries old vampire. 307 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 2: It was John Bolton. 308 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: Should be kind of cool. More vampires in office, That's 309 00:18:59,080 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: what I say. 310 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 2: Well, so these guys were part of something. 311 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: Oh yes, sorry, I was. I started daydreaming full out 312 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: of alter midte style about vampires in office. I am 313 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: pretty on board with it, but you're right, Matt. They 314 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: were part of something that a lot of people were 315 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: unaware of, a spy ring called the Culper Ring, and 316 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: these people's identities were kept secret until well after the 317 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: war ended. In seventeen seventy eight, a guy named Benjamin Talmadge, 318 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: a young American officer who was George Washington's new chief 319 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: of intelligence, organized this top secret network of spies. Several 320 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: of these people, it's important to note, were just otherwise 321 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: ordinary citizens, no military experience, no political ambitions per se. 322 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: Some of them, in fact, were probably just the idol 323 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 1: rich oh. 324 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, who had meetings with specific people. 325 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: Right on the s surface were British loyalists, you know 326 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: what I mean, and probably had British representatives at their house, 327 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: and they talked about how best to keep down the 328 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: peasants in the filth. 329 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and they were so secretive about this that even Washington, 330 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 2: the guy in charge of everybody, the entire military, the 331 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 2: country that is being born, he said, no, no, I 332 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 2: don't even want to know who these people are. Do 333 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 2: not tell me. 334 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: Oh yet it was a huge deal to him that 335 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: he not know, and that as few people know as possible, 336 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: because they didn't want there to be any way that 337 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: the ring might be compromise. So for recruits, Tomadge turns 338 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: to people that he already knows, people who he made 339 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: friends with in his hometown on Long Island. 340 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 2: Because how do you trust somebody enough to be a spy? 341 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 2: Like building trust to get someone to be a spy, 342 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 2: It's no short order. There's a lot of work you 343 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 2: got to put into. 344 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: That, You're absolutely right, and even today there the process 345 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: to just work at the FBI or work at the 346 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: CIA involves exhaustive vetting. Also, we should point out that 347 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of those images of a 348 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: quote CIA spy get romanticized in fiction. Oftentimes a spy 349 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: is going to be a resident of a country that 350 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, they already live in this country and they 351 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: just got turned one way or another into an asset. 352 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they're just years and ice. 353 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: But there are real you know, there are real James 354 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: bonds out there that are just far fewer than you 355 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: might think. 356 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 2: Yeah. 357 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: Right, So this guy is looking to build some bonds, 358 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: to build some real spies, and he chooses a guy 359 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: named Abraham Woodhol to be his his agent, sort of 360 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: his man on the ground. But Woodhold, who was code 361 00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 1: named Samuel Coulper Senior, soon fell a foul of British 362 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: counterintelligence because he kept traveling to Manhattan and they were like, 363 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: what are you doing here? 364 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? 365 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: What's your business? 366 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 2: And he's like, I just really love the park. What 367 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 2: are you talking about? Yeah? Uh? 368 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: But he So Woodhall has has some moves, he's got 369 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: some moxie. 370 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 2: What's he do well? He he actually recruited a relative 371 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 2: who happened to be living with his sister in their 372 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 2: in her Manhattan boarding house. This guy was a dry 373 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 2: goods merchant. He was also a society reporter, and his 374 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 2: name was Robert Townsend, but his real name was Samuel 375 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 2: Culper Junior, his real spy name, his real spy name 376 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 2: when he was walking around. 377 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: So is Junior and Senior at this point. 378 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 2: So now they're a family. 379 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: So now they're a family. So they need some technology 380 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 1: and they want to disguise their activities. They have a 381 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: couple of different methods and techniques. One of the strangest 382 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: is that they used a type of invisible ink that 383 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 1: was developed here in the States and could only be 384 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: read under certain circumstances. They developed a cipher so they 385 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: would write in code, and they were quite good at this. 386 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: They were quite accomplished. They were not perfect, and we'll 387 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 1: explore we'll explore the bumps in the road they encounter. 388 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:26,360 Speaker 2: Yeh. 389 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: But for today's episode, we have to focus on the 390 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: most mysterious member of the Culpa ring. This agent was 391 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: a person, yes, or persons, known only by the code 392 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: name Agent three fifty five. 393 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 2: So much better than seven eleven. 394 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: It is. It is much better than seven to eleven. 395 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: And for comic book fans, if you've read Why the 396 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,959 Speaker 1: Last Man, you will see there's there's an Agent three 397 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: point fifty five in this story and it comes from 398 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: this real historical person. 399 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so. 400 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: Here's what we know about Agent fifty five. Because you're like, 401 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: whoa Agent fifty five is such a badass and Why 402 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: the Last Man? I can't believe there's a person really 403 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: like this. There may have been, we don't know. 404 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 2: That's the thing. There's no real historical consensus about who 405 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 2: this person was, what they really did, even what happened 406 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 2: to them. 407 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 1: We just know that they were alive in an active. 408 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 2: Spy Things got attributed to them Yeah. 409 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: There we go. That's a more fair way to say it, Matt. 410 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: This person is so sketchy that two hundred years later 411 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: we have over two hundred years later, we have no 412 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: idea who they are, and maybe we never will, but 413 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: we do know the things that we're attributed to them 414 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,959 Speaker 1: were stunning and spectacular acts of spycraft. Oh yeah, so 415 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: how do we know they're even real? That's square one, right. 416 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: We know that because there is one direct reference to 417 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: Agent three fifty five in any of the culpor Ring 418 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: letters or correspondencies. It is a letter from Abraham Woodhull, 419 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: remember that's Culper senior to George Washington, when several spies 420 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: have been exposed and arrested. And what a Woodhull describer has. 421 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 2: Met one who hath been ever serviceable to this correspondence? 422 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: That's right her. 423 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 424 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: Not only was Agent three fifty five one of the 425 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: most accomplished the mysteries of the Culpur spies, but many 426 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: experts today believe Agent three fifty five may have been 427 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: a woman, or even a group of women. 428 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 2: And this is based on the fact that the culpor 429 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 2: Ring coding system of this this phrase or this number 430 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 2: three fifty five actually meant within their cipher, it meant lady. 431 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: And there's not much other proof than that. Yeah. 432 00:25:58,760 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 2: She. 433 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: Let's let's just assume that Agent three fifty five is 434 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: indeed a woman. She worked with the American Patriots during 435 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: the Revolutionary War. She would have been recruited by Woodhull 436 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: rather than Talmadge. They're guessing because of the way her 437 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: reports coincided with British visits to New York City. 438 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 2: Aha. 439 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: So the fact that they call three fifty five, the 440 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: fact that three fifty five means lady doesn't just imply, 441 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: you know, gender, it also implies social standing. 442 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, it means she probably had some kind of 443 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know what you would call 444 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 2: this prominence. 445 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, affluent maybe, ah, socially connected. So she was likely 446 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: living in New York City. We know at some point 447 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: Agent three fifty five had contact with Major John Andre 448 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: and Benedict Arnold, one of the only bad bends. Well 449 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: there's Benito moves Selini. Yeah, there's Benedict Arnold. 450 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 2: There's Benjamin Bratt. I'll just show he's awesome. So I 451 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: don't know anything about it. 452 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: I don't either. I just like the alliteration. You know what, Matt, 453 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 1: What if this is how we find out he's a 454 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: terrible person? 455 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 2: I know, because I'm like, I really like this dude. 456 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, we we will. 457 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 2: We are unsure about Benjamin Bratt. 458 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: That is our official stance. Undecided, undecidedful, hang on, I'll 459 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: ask Paul, Paul, do you know anything about Benjamin Bratt. 460 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: He's just shaking his head. Okay, he looked up. He's like, 461 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 2: what are they talking about? 462 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: So away from Benjamin Bratt back to Benedict Arnold, Major 463 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: John Andre. There's pretty solid speculation that three point fifty 464 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: five passed along the information that exposed Benedict Arnold as 465 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: a trader and led to the arrest of Major John Andre, 466 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: who was captured with Matt of West Point and a 467 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: pass signed by Arnold in his possession. Oh man, So, 468 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: Benjamin Talmadge's memoirs revealed this struggle to prevent the news 469 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: of the major's capture from reaching Benedict Arnold, because as 470 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: soon as Benedict hears that someone's been exposed, he's gonna 471 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: high tail it. Andre confessed, and then he was hanged. 472 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 1: So around this time, Abraham Woodhol's correspondence that's Culper Senior 473 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: indicates that Robert Townsend and other Culper ring members fled 474 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: New York City. They went into hiding. Something went sour, 475 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: something went south, something was rotten in Denmark. 476 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 2: Somebody knew, somebody knew too much. Well, yeah, but then 477 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 2: then after about two weeks, they saw that there was 478 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 2: some kind of decline in whatever heat they were experiencing, 479 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 2: decline in Tempa's and they returned. 480 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, which they probably shouldn't have done, because that's when, 481 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: you know, we said, there's that one direct reference to 482 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,959 Speaker 1: three p. Fifty five. Yeah, that's when Woodhull had to 483 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: inform Talmage about and Washington about the arrest of quote 484 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: several of our dear friends, including one who hath ever 485 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: been serviceable to this correspondence, which was as close as 486 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: they would come to saying, Okay, the jig is up exactly. 487 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: Let's look at how that occurred and then see if 488 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: we can make any guesses toward Agent three fifty five's identity, 489 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: which remains again unknown in the modern day. And we'll 490 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: get right back to that after a word from our sponsor. So, Matt, 491 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: what do we know about the roundup of the suspected 492 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: American spies. 493 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 2: Well, let's go back to Major John Andre. When the 494 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 2: perubrial t closed on him, it triggered this whole other thing, 495 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: a round up of suspects who were living in British 496 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 2: occupied territory. And there was a pregnant female spy who 497 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 2: was arrested and questioned, but she refused to reveal any 498 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 2: information of her activities or even who the father of 499 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 2: her child was. So it's a double mystery wrapped in 500 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 2: a burrito mystery. 501 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: Floating in a nice enigma sauce. So this spy was 502 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: held aboard a prison ship called the HMS Jersey. The 503 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: HMS Jersey was famous for being squalid and just a terrible, terrible, 504 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: terrible place, even in the realm of ship prisons. 505 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the last places you want to end up, right, And. 506 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: The life expectancy in these prison ships was you're not 507 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: staying there for years, Yeah, like several months. The good 508 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: news is you won't be that miserable for that long 509 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: because you'll die. 510 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 2: Such good news. 511 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: Infection, starvation, abuse, violence, terrible, terrible place. 512 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: But she remember she was pregnant. She actually gave birth there. 513 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, she, according to this story, gave birth to a boy. 514 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: But she died aboard the ship, and then the reports 515 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: from the culpa ring decay significantly even after Robert Townsend 516 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: goes back to Spye. There's a lot of speculation concerning 517 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: Robert Townsend and this expectant female spy because according to 518 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: letters from the Townshend family and the relatives and their 519 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: loved ones, he was never the same after this person 520 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: passed away. He lived out his days depressed, He never 521 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: got married, He drank like a thirsty fish. And this, 522 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: coupled with you know, the female spies pregnancy and his 523 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: activities leading up to enduring the arrest, caused some experts 524 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: to speculate that he was actually the father of this 525 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: child and that this spy, if she were Agent three 526 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: point fifty five, was his common law wife. 527 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there's a legend that when the boy 528 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 2: that was born ended up being named Robert Townsend junior. 529 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: But a lot of academics kind of poopoo this idea 530 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 2: or they debunk it. 531 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: It's like it's just sort of conveniently romantic, right. 532 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it made it would make for a great book. 533 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: We do know that once he had news of this 534 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: roundup or this search for spies, people were suspect Townshend 535 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: did attempt to steal a ton of money, Yeah, and 536 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: high tail it, skidaddle probably with this person if the 537 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: story is true. 538 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 2: One and wonder if it was just out of fear. 539 00:32:58,280 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 2: But who knows. 540 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: It's weird because you can go on the official CIA 541 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: website and you'll see arguments that imply they accept this claim. 542 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: So that's what we do know about Agent three point 543 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: fifty five. There is, however, a tantalizing bit of extra 544 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: information in terms of this this kid's story. 545 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, this little boy who became a man, Robert 546 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 2: Townsend Junior. He was a son of James Townsend and 547 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 2: also a brother of Robert Sr. He became a lawyer. 548 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 2: He went into politics, and oddly enough, maybe not that oddly, 549 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 2: because we know who his mother is, right, One of 550 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 2: his pet projects as a lawyer was the prison Ship 551 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 2: Martyr's Memorial Fund, which eventually became the prison Ship Martyrs 552 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 2: Monument at Fort Green Park in New York. Coincidence, I mean, 553 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 2: I think it just has more to do with who 554 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 2: his mom was, right, Well, we. 555 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: Don't know that that was his mother. 556 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 4: Oh oh so okay, Yeah, so there's a mystery a 557 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 4: foot man a mystery that remains, and that leads us 558 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 4: to what we don't know about Agent three p. 559 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: Fifty five, which is literally anything else, any any stuff 560 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: other than the wild guesses that we've seen the speculation 561 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: from historians at one mention in one letter, one direct 562 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: reference rather other than that, absolutely nothing concrete is known 563 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: about her other than when the British leaders were in 564 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: New York. Information came to General Washington an incredibly quick 565 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: and prodigious rate. But when those British leaders left town, 566 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: the information slowed down to a trickle. So yeah, probably 567 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: lived in New York. But who is Agent three fifty 568 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: There are a couple of possibilities, and maybe we can 569 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: start with just some rough demographic stuff and work our 570 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: way up to specific names. 571 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 2: Yes, say, one possibility is that she was a well 572 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 2: bred lady. 573 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: What a weird term. 574 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 2: It just it means probably from a wealthy family from 575 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 2: New York, within the upper crust of society, and she 576 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 2: was probably this family was probably a loyalist family to 577 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 2: the British, to the British government, and you just have 578 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 2: to imagine. One of the reasons this is a good 579 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 2: possibility is because such a position would have given her 580 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 2: access to visiting officials just by having a meeting, having 581 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 2: a dinner, or having officers over for any reason or another, 582 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 2: especially if they're living in a kind of lavishly in 583 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 2: New York. 584 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: A social function. 585 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna have a social function up here in 586 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 2: New York. Shity. This is not how people talk in 587 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:57,839 Speaker 2: New York. 588 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 1: Shit it I hope it is. Uh, it would be 589 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 1: such a de Latin merriment. Well at the cast, wouldn't 590 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: it be. 591 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 2: Great if if everybody talked like or if the if 592 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 2: the early colonists had like New York accents, like real 593 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 2: like gritty New York accent's like full. 594 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: On tell the British to get at it. 595 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, that'd be wonderful. 596 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, I would be into that. So 597 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: there's that. But that's a that's a really good guestimate, 598 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: isn't it. Oh, absolutely demographic guests. There's the other possibility 599 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: that maybe she was agent three fifty five. Again, if 600 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: we're assuming three fifty five a woman, Yeah, there's this 601 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: other possibility that three point fifty five was in one 602 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: of these great houses of note, she was with a 603 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: well bred family. To borrow that terrible term. 604 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 2: Having constant contact with these officers, but. 605 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 1: Not as an equal, perhaps as a servant, a maid 606 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: in a house where British soldiers slept or. 607 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 2: Were or bivouact. 608 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, exactly. And from these guesses we can go 609 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: to some specific names. You'll hear people such as Anna Strong, 610 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: proposed as Agent three p. Fifty five. She was a 611 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 1: known member of the Culper spy ring, and she was 612 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: Abraham Woodhole's neighbor. She she had a cool These people 613 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: all have her specialties, right, Yeah, Like her cool shtick 614 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: was that she would convey messages via the way she 615 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: hung laundry on her clothesline. 616 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 2: Oh that is so cool. 617 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: It makes you paranoid when you when you learn about 618 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: how people signal things. 619 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 2: Just everything is a sign, now, you know. 620 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: I honestly, when I see somebody bendover to tie their shoelaces, 621 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: oh yes, I know, I know that that is way 622 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,919 Speaker 1: too paranoid of me. But I try not to stand 623 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: around when they're doing that. 624 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 2: I get that sometimes I know I'm profiling. 625 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: I'm basically profiling people who have laces in their shoes. 626 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,919 Speaker 2: Dude. I was driving by this dude the other day 627 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 2: and he just happened to bend like he like made 628 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 2: eye contact with me as I'm driving past. Then he 629 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 2: bent down to his backpack, and I did not like 630 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 2: it one bit because I was just like, Uh, what's happening? 631 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 2: What exchanges occurring here? 632 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: What's the signal? 633 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 2: Yeah? 634 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: Also, I don't know about It would always seem like 635 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: it would be so much fun to perpetrate those sorts 636 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 1: of spy activities. Oh, just randomly, just like in a park, 637 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,359 Speaker 1: walk by and have walk by and switch suitcases with someone, yes, 638 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: or do that thing where they're you know, back to 639 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 1: back benches and you sit on one one side of 640 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: the bench and the other person sits on the other 641 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: side facing away from you. 642 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 2: Oh that's great, and then just remark about the passers 643 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 2: by to the other person hmm quietly. 644 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: Oh man. It just seems it seems like it would 645 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: be It would be fun because personally, if I saw 646 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: somebody doing a suitcase and off, I would be I 647 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: would be mystified. It would make my day. These were 648 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: not suitcase handoff times though, These were messages and laundry 649 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: and disappearing inc times. But there are other candidates for 650 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 1: three fifty five correct. 651 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, one would be Sarah Horton Townshend. This is 652 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,760 Speaker 2: Robert Townsend's cousin. And there's also Elizabeth Brugan or Bruin, 653 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 2: who helped American prisoners on British prison ships. And it's 654 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 2: just trying these ideas are just looking at placement location, 655 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 2: like is this a possibility? I mean really, all of 656 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 2: these are just kind of not reaching out in the 657 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 2: dark because we've got these tiny little pieces, right. 658 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: These breadcrumbs. Well, they're built on the assumption that three 659 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: point fifty five being lady meant either a female spy 660 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: or a specific female spy, And all you can extrapolate 661 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: from that is, hey, who were the female spies active 662 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: with the culper ring in the TV show Washington Spies? 663 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 2: Oh? 664 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:02,839 Speaker 1: Is that the show? 665 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 2: You? That's it? 666 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 1: There we go, We got there. In turn, Agent three 667 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: fifty five is actually a former slave of Anna Strong 668 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:19,759 Speaker 1: who mentioned earlier. And that's that's that's it, that's all 669 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: we got. At this point, the cover up seems to 670 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: have been successful. More than two hundred years after the 671 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: Revolutionary War, we have no way of discerning the true 672 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: identity of Agent three fifty five. Is it possible that 673 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 1: someone out there knows? Is it possible that one of 674 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: our fellow listeners has passed this family secret down the 675 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 1: line for generations. 676 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 2: Is there a reason why you would want to continue 677 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 2: to keep it secret. 678 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,360 Speaker 1: Is it possible that somewhere in a long neglected attic 679 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,760 Speaker 1: or dusty tome, future historians might discover a new clue 680 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: to three fifty five's identity. For now, it is difficult 681 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: to say. One thing is for sure. The identity of 682 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: Agent three point fifty five was and remains the stuff 683 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. And at least in 684 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: this case, America's forefathers proved more than capable of keeping 685 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:15,439 Speaker 1: it that way. 686 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 2: Wow, so we have. 687 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:18,799 Speaker 1: To say they did a good job. I mean, I 688 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: know we knocked the government a little bit occasionally here 689 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 1: in this show. 690 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,479 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely. By the way, I'm I'm so silly. 691 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 2: Turn is a whole different thing that I was also watching. 692 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 2: I keep watching all these spycraft shows. Turn is about 693 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 2: this kind of stuff back in the Revolutionary War, which 694 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 2: is a great show in my opinion. But this other 695 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 2: one was about World War two and I still can't remember. 696 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: I'm sorry World Wars. Sorry yeah, wait no, let's let's 697 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:51,359 Speaker 1: let's figure this out. Let's let's guess some ex company. No, 698 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:52,720 Speaker 1: I know, Hotter Culture. 699 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 2: That's probably not it either. Hogan's Heroes. Oh, okay, that's 700 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 2: what it was called. He's right. 701 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: It's a real hard hitting dark drama there. 702 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 2: I honestly cannot remember what it is. It was so 703 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,279 Speaker 2: good too. Is a BBC show, I want to say, 704 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 2: I believe. 705 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: How about this? How about we ask our fellow conspiracy 706 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: realists for some help. Let us know what some of 707 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 1: your favorite spy shows are. Let us know how you 708 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 1: think the If you want to practice some counterfactual history, 709 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 1: let us know what you think would have happened to 710 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,919 Speaker 1: this continent had the United States not emerged independent from 711 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,359 Speaker 1: the Revolutionary War. And yes, of course, if you think 712 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 1: the US is still under the control of the United Kingdom, 713 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 1: why and what is the evidence? We'd love to hear it. 714 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,479 Speaker 1: We also have that episode about whether the UK still 715 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,360 Speaker 1: controls the US, which is a surprisingly prominent belief. 716 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is. And when will British Royalty finally 717 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 2: bring about the Moonchild? I mean, we've been waiting for 718 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 2: a long time, and I don't just bring that moon 719 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:01,720 Speaker 2: Child on it's time? 720 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I am very pro Moonchild do you know 721 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 1: what I mean? 722 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would totally bow down to the moon tild 723 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 2: kind of like the species has peaked, you know, I'm sorry, 724 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 2: we're both talking about the same thing, right. 725 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, from the Invisibles particularly okay, cool, cool, the 726 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: half human half outer god hybrid. Yes, yeah, that comes 727 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: through a mirror or something. This sounds wild, but this 728 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: is not even spoiling the Invisibles at all. It's chock 729 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,919 Speaker 1: full of that stuff and we want to thank you 730 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: so much for diving into this history here with what 731 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 1: could have been. Well, I guess it's probably not the 732 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,719 Speaker 1: most successful spy in US history because we know they 733 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: existed and the most successful spies alright, ghosts, Yeah right, 734 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,360 Speaker 1: they're just traveling salespeople or something like that. They're listening 735 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 1: to this episode, if they will, thank you, because you 736 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: could have listened to so many other spy podcasts. 737 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 2: They have to listen to all. It's just kind of 738 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 2: it downloads. 739 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:07,359 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, okay, Well, still, we appreciate your time. We 740 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 1: hope that you enjoyed this episode, and we want to 741 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 1: hear from you. Those were not idle questions. You can 742 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,360 Speaker 1: answer these questions on Instagram. You can find us on Twitter. 743 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 1: You can talk to us on Facebook. We're big fans 744 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: of our community page. Here's where it gets crazy, but 745 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 1: let's see. 746 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 2: And that's the end of this classic episode. If you 747 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 2: have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can 748 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,880 Speaker 2: get into contact with us in a number of different ways. 749 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 2: One of the best is to give us a call. 750 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 2: Our number is one eight three three STDWYTK. If you 751 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,400 Speaker 2: don't want to do that, you can send us a 752 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 2: good old fashioned email. 753 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 3: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 754 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 755 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,839 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 756 00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,800 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.