WEBVTT - Coming Forward 0:00:08.245 --> 0:00:13.365 School of Humans. I have said many times before that 0:00:13.445 --> 0:00:17.885 in a death investigation, everyone is lying about something. Some 0:00:18.005 --> 0:00:21.845 lies are fairly innocent. Maybe someone covers for a friend 0:00:21.885 --> 0:00:25.805 because they want to protect that person's reputation, or sometimes 0:00:26.045 --> 0:00:28.325 a person doesn't want to admit that they were somewhere 0:00:28.365 --> 0:00:31.125 they weren't supposed to be, or doing something that they 0:00:31.165 --> 0:00:34.445 wanted to keep secret. This is the last episode of 0:00:34.485 --> 0:00:37.245 season four. I said back at the beginning of this 0:00:37.325 --> 0:00:40.525 season that we wanted to go through the process of elimination. 0:00:41.125 --> 0:00:43.045 We wanted to put the evidence out there in the 0:00:43.085 --> 0:00:46.765 most logical way, and then Malna called action so that 0:00:46.805 --> 0:00:49.645 people would come forward and help us construct the timeline. 0:00:50.645 --> 0:00:54.525 It's like deja vu all over again again. We're going 0:00:54.605 --> 0:00:57.805 back to the timeline, back to the beginning of the investigation. 0:00:58.525 --> 0:01:01.725 We've come full circle and we have to question everything 0:01:01.765 --> 0:01:04.885 that we knew to be true. I'm a journalist and 0:01:04.925 --> 0:01:08.205 an investigator, not a police officer. I don't have access 0:01:08.245 --> 0:01:12.005 to case files. I can't make people talk to me. Instead, 0:01:12.165 --> 0:01:14.845 my strategy has always been to try and get all 0:01:14.885 --> 0:01:17.205 the information that is out there, to talk to as 0:01:17.205 --> 0:01:20.125 many people as I can, and crucially to try to 0:01:20.165 --> 0:01:24.565 spot in consistencies, and in this case, some people's stories 0:01:24.605 --> 0:01:27.725 are not matching up. A big part of my job 0:01:27.885 --> 0:01:31.045 is separating those little white lies from the lies that 0:01:31.125 --> 0:01:34.965 indicate that a person could be hiding something truly horrifying. 0:01:35.685 --> 0:02:12.245 I'm Catherine Townsend. This is hell and gone. Let's go 0:02:12.285 --> 0:02:15.325 over what we figured out so far. At the beginning 0:02:15.365 --> 0:02:17.725 of the case, there was a narrative that Ebbie had 0:02:17.725 --> 0:02:20.445 been gang raped by four guys at a party, and 0:02:20.525 --> 0:02:23.565 that this had been a big party. That's what a 0:02:23.605 --> 0:02:27.885 lot of people thought, including Ebbie's friend Kayley, Like people 0:02:28.605 --> 0:02:31.405 explained it like it was like a big, huge party 0:02:31.485 --> 0:02:35.125 and there were so many people, and then now hearing 0:02:35.165 --> 0:02:37.245 that like it was only a few friends. So I 0:02:37.285 --> 0:02:40.685 didn't know about that at all either. But we now 0:02:40.725 --> 0:02:42.885 know that this was just a small gathering of friends 0:02:43.565 --> 0:02:46.565 and judging by Ebbie's messages that she was having a 0:02:46.605 --> 0:02:49.965 conflict with one guy l because she believed that he 0:02:50.005 --> 0:02:54.445 had videotaped her without her consent. Kayley also verifies this 0:02:54.525 --> 0:02:57.405 from some of the screenshots that appeared on her phone storage. 0:02:58.125 --> 0:03:00.885 It was just screenshots of herds falk into this one 0:03:01.365 --> 0:03:06.525 guy on Instagram and she was like, your friend needs 0:03:06.565 --> 0:03:09.445 to delete up video, like it's not okay. I didn't 0:03:09.445 --> 0:03:12.045 know that he was trying to take a video, and 0:03:12.125 --> 0:03:14.125 she was like, if you don't delete it, I'll get 0:03:14.165 --> 0:03:16.925 the cops involved. And then he was just like, no, 0:03:17.765 --> 0:03:19.645 you don't need to do that. We don't need to 0:03:19.685 --> 0:03:23.325 get them involved. This sounds very similar to the social 0:03:23.365 --> 0:03:26.845 media exchanges that we saw. Ebbie was contacting C to 0:03:26.885 --> 0:03:31.125 get L's info, and C seemed to be cooperative. Though 0:03:31.125 --> 0:03:33.525 these guys had been treated in a lot of media 0:03:33.605 --> 0:03:37.485 stories as the only suspects, we found no evidence that 0:03:37.525 --> 0:03:40.325 there had been any communication between C and L and 0:03:40.405 --> 0:03:45.925 Ebbie after early Saturday. Then there's the car. In the beginning, 0:03:46.005 --> 0:03:48.645 the only story that we ever heard was that the 0:03:48.725 --> 0:03:54.245 security guard, Guy Hooper, had reported Ebbie's abandoned car. Then 0:03:54.325 --> 0:03:56.925 we found the incident report, the one that showed that 0:03:56.965 --> 0:03:59.685 it was Lee, the neighbor, and not the security guard 0:04:00.005 --> 0:04:05.285 who reported Ebbie's car on Friday, October thirtieth. We still 0:04:05.325 --> 0:04:09.085 have questions about Saturday night. We know that Ebby saw 0:04:09.245 --> 0:04:12.485 Eric probably late on Friday night, and spent the rest 0:04:12.525 --> 0:04:15.765 of the night there. At some point on Saturday, she 0:04:15.805 --> 0:04:19.325 went to her brother's house. She saw Danielle. She spent 0:04:19.365 --> 0:04:23.645 the afternoon at her grandparents. Then she exchanged those Instagram 0:04:23.685 --> 0:04:27.285 messages with Eric late on Saturday afternoon, letting him know 0:04:27.325 --> 0:04:31.565 that she was okay. On Saturday night, Trevor went to 0:04:31.565 --> 0:04:34.725 a wedding out of town, so Ebby could not stay 0:04:34.765 --> 0:04:39.485 at his house. It seemed like her plans changed after 0:04:39.525 --> 0:04:42.845 the assault. She didn't go out of town or to 0:04:42.885 --> 0:04:46.365 the church event to meet Danielle. It's possible that she 0:04:46.445 --> 0:04:49.325 could have met another friend on Saturday night. We know 0:04:49.485 --> 0:04:52.885 that she talked to Leo shortly after the assault, and 0:04:52.965 --> 0:04:59.085 according to our source, she seemed distraught. Kaylee also told 0:04:59.205 --> 0:05:02.725 us about someone else who she introduced Ebby two, someone 0:05:02.765 --> 0:05:06.045 who had smoked pot with Ebbie recently, and someone who 0:05:06.085 --> 0:05:08.245 was the cause of friction between Ebby and her parents. 0:05:09.165 --> 0:05:12.965 His name is Charles. Charles was one of Kayley's managers 0:05:12.965 --> 0:05:15.245 at Big Rock Fun Park, where she got a job 0:05:15.285 --> 0:05:18.565 after leaving Playtime Pizza. That's the job where she met 0:05:18.685 --> 0:05:22.805 and became friends with Ebby. Apparently, Ebby's parents got upset 0:05:22.885 --> 0:05:25.565 because Ebbie was hanging out with Charles, who they considered 0:05:25.565 --> 0:05:29.405 about influence, and Kayley believed that by extension that meant 0:05:29.445 --> 0:05:33.485 they considered her about influence. We know that Ebby was 0:05:33.525 --> 0:05:36.405 going through a tough time, but again, there is zero 0:05:36.565 --> 0:05:42.245 indication that she was suicidal. Unfortunately, Trevor passed away, so 0:05:42.365 --> 0:05:44.845 there's no way to know exactly what he heard in 0:05:44.885 --> 0:05:48.725 his last conversation with Ebbie. But there was someone else 0:05:49.005 --> 0:05:52.685 who was there during that conversation, someone who overheard Trevor 0:05:52.765 --> 0:05:57.045 and Ebby talking that Sunday, right before she disappeared. We'll 0:05:57.085 --> 0:06:02.605 be right back. The person who overheard Trevor and Ebby's 0:06:02.645 --> 0:06:06.685 conversation was Rebecca. Rebecca and Trevor had known each other 0:06:06.725 --> 0:06:09.925 for a long time. They were friends who had reconnected 0:06:10.045 --> 0:06:13.725 and started dating. They were living together in twenty fifteen 0:06:13.965 --> 0:06:17.525 when Ebbie came to stay with them. She says she 0:06:17.605 --> 0:06:20.765 doesn't think she has any helpful information, but she did 0:06:20.805 --> 0:06:23.125 help confirm a lot of the details that we had 0:06:23.165 --> 0:06:27.245 been hearing secondhand. I didn't see her a whole lot, really, 0:06:27.285 --> 0:06:29.565 because she was young, you know, had friends hung out, 0:06:29.685 --> 0:06:31.125 and you know, I just didn't see her a lot. 0:06:31.365 --> 0:06:34.125 But then I don't know what all happened, but she 0:06:34.245 --> 0:06:37.925 was going through some hard times. For whatever reason, she 0:06:38.005 --> 0:06:40.045 moved in with Trevor and I I think it was 0:06:40.085 --> 0:06:44.565 around August of twenty fifteen. Yeah, I think that was 0:06:44.645 --> 0:06:47.205 about right because she was just needing the place to 0:06:47.245 --> 0:06:49.605 stay and going through a lot, and you know, we 0:06:49.645 --> 0:06:52.725 went to like Harvest Best together. She would go to work. 0:06:52.805 --> 0:06:55.925 I think she worked at Lady Footlocker. She's super sweet, 0:06:56.165 --> 0:06:59.005 but just not super like open, like you know, she's 0:06:59.005 --> 0:07:01.085 not going to just come up and hug in start 0:07:01.125 --> 0:07:03.525 talking to you forever. So I didn't get to know 0:07:03.605 --> 0:07:07.885 her personally super well, even though she lived there. But anyway, 0:07:07.925 --> 0:07:11.125 she was a sweetheart. I think she's from what I've like, 0:07:11.165 --> 0:07:12.525 I've talked to a lot of people now and it 0:07:12.525 --> 0:07:14.765 seems like, you know, there's a lot going on. She 0:07:14.845 --> 0:07:20.165 tended to kind of compartmentalize different. I remember sometimes I 0:07:20.165 --> 0:07:22.045 would come in and she would be laying on the 0:07:22.085 --> 0:07:23.965 couch and she the TV would be on, but she 0:07:23.965 --> 0:07:25.485 wouldn't even be looking at it. She would just be 0:07:25.565 --> 0:07:28.085 kind of looking up into space, like just thinking, you know, 0:07:28.445 --> 0:07:31.525 because yeah, she did that a lot when she would 0:07:31.525 --> 0:07:33.565 come to you gu's house. Did she tend to leave 0:07:33.605 --> 0:07:35.925 her car there? Did she let other people drive her car? 0:07:36.565 --> 0:07:39.685 She never brought anything or anyone over to our house, 0:07:39.765 --> 0:07:41.725 so and I never saw her leave with anyone, like. 0:07:41.885 --> 0:07:44.365 She would always leave alone in her car and come 0:07:44.405 --> 0:07:47.925 back alone, like I never saw anyone else. And she 0:07:47.965 --> 0:07:49.805 would even go and hang out with us a couple 0:07:49.845 --> 0:07:51.725 of times, like I said, of harvest fests and things 0:07:51.765 --> 0:07:57.765 like that. But she was just super chilled, super quiet, 0:07:57.965 --> 0:08:02.165 super and she made a lot of like Instagram videos 0:08:02.205 --> 0:08:04.605 while she was at our house. And I've been a 0:08:04.725 --> 0:08:08.445 cute but she just was very kind of I don't 0:08:08.445 --> 0:08:10.325 want to say, a loaner. What I saw was that 0:08:10.405 --> 0:08:13.285 she was a loaner. I don't guess she was out 0:08:13.445 --> 0:08:16.125 there in the world, but for it. As far as 0:08:16.125 --> 0:08:20.405 when she got home, she was, she was alone. Rebecca 0:08:20.445 --> 0:08:22.725 confirms that she and Trevor went to the wedding on 0:08:22.765 --> 0:08:25.885 Saturday night and Trevor didn't want Ebby to stay at 0:08:25.885 --> 0:08:29.565 the house while they were out, and so the weekend 0:08:29.685 --> 0:08:33.245 when she went missing, you were sort of temping about 0:08:33.285 --> 0:08:35.045 I wonder if you could just tell me about the call. 0:08:35.285 --> 0:08:38.485 What happened we I want to say, I mean, I 0:08:38.485 --> 0:08:40.605 don't remember, but I want to say. It was a Sunday. 0:08:41.445 --> 0:08:43.725 It was a lazy day at home, not working, so 0:08:43.765 --> 0:08:46.045 I feel like it was a Sunday, So we're like 0:08:46.085 --> 0:08:47.965 wondering where she went at his friend's house. You know, 0:08:48.005 --> 0:08:51.165 we weren't concerned. She was like seventeen, eighteen year old girl. 0:08:51.485 --> 0:08:53.005 We know, you know, we've been that age. We weren't 0:08:53.005 --> 0:08:55.965 worried about where she was. But she called and he's like, 0:08:56.005 --> 0:08:58.045 where are you, Like, you know, why haven't you been home? 0:08:58.565 --> 0:09:01.045 And she said I am here. And we were all 0:09:01.045 --> 0:09:03.325 sitting in the living room when she said that. He 0:09:03.525 --> 0:09:05.805 put her on speaking phone and she's like, yeah, I'm here, 0:09:06.125 --> 0:09:08.205 and Trevor gets up and he goes and looks in 0:09:08.245 --> 0:09:13.205 the driveway. Her car's not there, and so he's like, 0:09:13.245 --> 0:09:15.125 you're not here, ebbie, and she's like, yes, i am. 0:09:15.165 --> 0:09:17.685 And anyway, she hangs up the phone and Trevor starts 0:09:17.685 --> 0:09:19.685 crying and I'm like, why are you crying? Like she's 0:09:19.685 --> 0:09:22.365 just you know, whatever is it. I wasn't worried once 0:09:22.365 --> 0:09:24.605 again at all. For some reason, I just didn't expect 0:09:24.605 --> 0:09:27.645 her to come up missing, So not worried, not worried, 0:09:27.685 --> 0:09:29.685 And she's like Finally he gets back on the phone 0:09:29.685 --> 0:09:32.165 with her, and she's like, I'm fucked up. And that's 0:09:32.205 --> 0:09:34.165 all she would say over and over again. And he's like, 0:09:34.205 --> 0:09:36.925 oh my god. And then at that point I'm like, Okay, 0:09:36.965 --> 0:09:38.765 this is not good. She's somewhere, it doesn't know where 0:09:38.805 --> 0:09:41.605 she's at, and she's messed up. So we're like, we've 0:09:41.645 --> 0:09:43.565 got to find you, you know. And I don't know. 0:09:43.965 --> 0:09:46.445 I really don't know if like she hung up, never 0:09:46.485 --> 0:09:50.485 answered again, or why they didn't continue talking, but I 0:09:50.485 --> 0:09:51.805 doant to know. As they got off the phone with 0:09:51.805 --> 0:09:54.485 each other, and we started driving up and down Cantroll 0:09:54.565 --> 0:09:57.485 and Ronnie's Caam and going places we thought she might be. 0:09:57.925 --> 0:09:59.725 So we were just driving all around West led her on, 0:09:59.925 --> 0:10:03.325 just trying to find her. Didn't find her, talking to everybody. 0:10:03.605 --> 0:10:06.405 Laurie at that point started getting really freaking out and 0:10:06.525 --> 0:10:09.565 called the police, and there you go. That was the 0:10:09.605 --> 0:10:12.525 last time I ever heard from her. And when she 0:10:12.605 --> 0:10:14.645 was on speaker phone, I mean, other than her saying 0:10:14.645 --> 0:10:17.125 I'm sucked up, did she say anything else or did 0:10:17.165 --> 0:10:18.725 you hear anything else that sounded like the could be 0:10:18.725 --> 0:10:22.125 anyone around her? Not really, not at all. I mean, 0:10:22.325 --> 0:10:25.525 she she just sounded like she was confused and she 0:10:25.525 --> 0:10:29.365 didn't know where she was, and she sounded very sad, 0:10:29.965 --> 0:10:33.005 like she was very upset. I don't know what she 0:10:33.085 --> 0:10:36.805 was upset about, but she was very like, I'm I'm 0:10:36.845 --> 0:10:39.165 sorry for custom, but she's like, I'm sucked up, Like 0:10:39.405 --> 0:10:41.245 you know, I just remember her saying it like that 0:10:41.325 --> 0:10:43.365 over and over again, like she couldn't believe it, or 0:10:43.445 --> 0:10:46.445 like I don't know and I can't think of anything 0:10:46.445 --> 0:10:49.605 that would make me think I was somewhere else, Like 0:10:49.685 --> 0:10:52.285 it had to have been something really strong or like, 0:10:52.605 --> 0:10:56.685 I don't know, but it was. She didn't slur her words, 0:10:56.805 --> 0:10:59.765 she wasn't. She didn't sound messed up. She just said 0:10:59.845 --> 0:11:02.645 she was It's so weird. I don't know, but she 0:11:02.645 --> 0:11:04.725 didn't like, she didn't sound like she was about to 0:11:04.725 --> 0:11:06.565 fall down and drink. And I can tell you that, like, 0:11:07.245 --> 0:11:10.445 no way on Saturday night when y'all were at the 0:11:10.485 --> 0:11:12.885 wedding did she ever think anything about where she was 0:11:12.925 --> 0:11:16.085 going or like why she wasn't. I guess she wasn't 0:11:16.125 --> 0:11:18.485 saying at your place because it's because y'all weren't going 0:11:18.525 --> 0:11:21.925 to be there. Yeah, Her and Trevor like argued about 0:11:21.965 --> 0:11:24.805 it because Trevor was like, why can't you just say 0:11:24.805 --> 0:11:26.485 at your friend's house tonight? You know, I know you're 0:11:26.485 --> 0:11:28.885 gonna have people over I can't remember exactly what he said, 0:11:28.965 --> 0:11:32.325 but he's trying to make her a little bit more responsible, like, yeah, 0:11:32.365 --> 0:11:34.525 how to make sure she took care of her where 0:11:34.565 --> 0:11:37.645 she was going, you know, trying to be the bigger brother. Anyway, 0:11:37.725 --> 0:11:40.085 she didn't, and she wanted to hang out with her friends. Again, 0:11:40.285 --> 0:11:44.765 totally understandable, but she never told us, like like again 0:11:44.885 --> 0:11:46.365 when we would go to work every day, like we 0:11:46.405 --> 0:11:48.005 didn't know what she did all day long. You know, 0:11:48.085 --> 0:11:51.045 we don't know. I don't know. I guess that's part 0:11:51.085 --> 0:11:53.285 of being like a thirty year old with a nineteen 0:11:53.325 --> 0:11:56.365 year old. You're just not super parent parential yet. So 0:11:56.405 --> 0:11:59.005 we didn't like keep great calves on her, you know, 0:11:59.085 --> 0:12:00.565 we just have her, let her live there and go 0:12:00.645 --> 0:12:03.285 as she pleased because she's you know, she wouldn't our kids. 0:12:04.045 --> 0:12:08.205 I wish imber, but it now, Yeah, so it's just 0:12:08.565 --> 0:12:12.405 I don't know it. So Rebecca says the police never 0:12:12.445 --> 0:12:14.765 reached out to her. I don't know why the police 0:12:14.805 --> 0:12:17.005 never reached out to me, not that I have any information, 0:12:17.005 --> 0:12:18.805 if you can see, but I watched TV and I 0:12:18.885 --> 0:12:22.445 know that like every tiny detail matters, But like I 0:12:22.525 --> 0:12:25.765 was reaching out to the detective that we uf. Lourie 0:12:25.845 --> 0:12:28.645 kind of gave everybody, like all of Trevor's friends, this 0:12:28.845 --> 0:12:30.725 number to call if we saw anything, because we were 0:12:30.765 --> 0:12:32.405 all drunk around looking for he a car like her 0:12:32.485 --> 0:12:35.325 driving around. We thought she had like ran away and 0:12:35.405 --> 0:12:36.885 that she didn't want to be found. But we were 0:12:36.885 --> 0:12:39.485 trying to find her type of situation at first, and 0:12:39.525 --> 0:12:41.685 I would be calling that number trying. I thought I 0:12:41.725 --> 0:12:43.405 saw her car one time, so I called it and 0:12:43.485 --> 0:12:45.085 left a message, and I'm like, oh my gosh, you'll 0:12:45.125 --> 0:12:46.645 have to answer me. No one ever called me back. 0:12:46.725 --> 0:12:49.845 Like it was very frustrating. It's a nightmare mess, Like 0:12:49.885 --> 0:12:52.005 they did not take it serious at first, and then 0:12:52.045 --> 0:12:55.285 they didn't even do the right things when they did 0:12:55.325 --> 0:12:58.565 start taking it seriously, and literally Laurie had to fight 0:12:58.605 --> 0:13:00.285 tooth and nail for them to even try to figure 0:13:00.285 --> 0:13:04.325 out what happened, like or find her. I mean, it's disgusting, really. 0:13:06.325 --> 0:13:08.685 She says, she'll call us back if she can think 0:13:08.725 --> 0:13:16.245 of anything else. We'll be right back. Technically, the police 0:13:16.285 --> 0:13:20.325 investigation into Ebbie's death is still classified as open, so 0:13:20.445 --> 0:13:25.285 police won't officially close the case, but Detective Bruce Maxwell 0:13:25.445 --> 0:13:29.445 recently told Laurie his theory is that Ebbie somehow crawled 0:13:29.445 --> 0:13:33.045 into that pipe herself. But as we've seen from our 0:13:33.125 --> 0:13:36.485 multiple visits to the crime scene and from what everyone 0:13:36.565 --> 0:13:40.605 is said about Ebbie's behavior, Detective Maxwell's theory makes zero 0:13:40.725 --> 0:13:45.045 sense to me. I know you've told me before, but 0:13:45.165 --> 0:13:47.165 just for the podcast purposes, can you just tell me 0:13:48.165 --> 0:13:50.365 how you knew Ebbie and how you first sort of 0:13:50.405 --> 0:13:53.645 like got the idea and started to make a podcast. Yeah, 0:13:53.685 --> 0:13:57.125 so Ebbie and I knew each other as kids. I 0:13:57.205 --> 0:14:00.045 must have been, oh god, this is Astrid. She knew 0:14:00.045 --> 0:14:03.845 Ebbie and elementary school, and in twenty twenty she started 0:14:03.845 --> 0:14:07.365 compiling her own podcast called Subterfuge and Shall Want Park. 0:14:08.125 --> 0:14:10.845 And she told me that Ebbie's case has had a 0:14:11.005 --> 0:14:15.085 huge impact on the community. Ebbie's case especially has been 0:14:15.085 --> 0:14:18.845 at the top of everyone's mind since twenty fifteen. Honestly, 0:14:19.685 --> 0:14:23.925 people are still like very angry about this, and it 0:14:24.285 --> 0:14:27.645 seems like they've lost a significant amount of trust in 0:14:28.165 --> 0:14:32.285 law enforcement and Little Rock, which is really sad because 0:14:32.325 --> 0:14:34.445 you know, there's supposed to be a resource there to help, 0:14:35.045 --> 0:14:36.845 but this just seems to have done like a lot 0:14:36.885 --> 0:14:41.765 of damage in people's psyches. Astrid reached out to me 0:14:41.845 --> 0:14:45.005 after this podcast stared airing. We've been talking about some 0:14:45.085 --> 0:14:48.485 of the rumors that surrounded Ebbie's case and about how 0:14:48.525 --> 0:14:51.565 important it is to clear up these misconceptions so that 0:14:51.605 --> 0:14:54.405 we can understand what's actually going on in order to 0:14:54.445 --> 0:14:58.045 move this case forward. One of the things Astrid says 0:14:58.085 --> 0:15:01.245 she questioned was the way that Ebby's body was found. 0:15:02.365 --> 0:15:05.085 Tommy Hudson said that he had sent robots down into 0:15:05.125 --> 0:15:07.685 the drain system in the park and that after they 0:15:07.765 --> 0:15:11.285 hit an obstruction, they dug up that pipe and Ebbie's 0:15:11.285 --> 0:15:15.085 remains were identified, but Astrid said that she heard a 0:15:15.125 --> 0:15:18.765 different story. I think it was after I released the 0:15:18.885 --> 0:15:21.645 second episode, so kind of right out a year ago. 0:15:22.405 --> 0:15:26.125 I got this message from a girl and basically it 0:15:26.205 --> 0:15:28.205 was like, you need to talk to one of my 0:15:28.285 --> 0:15:30.925 ex boyfriends. Like he didn't have anything to do with it, 0:15:30.925 --> 0:15:34.125 It's just he has something that might help you piece 0:15:34.245 --> 0:15:37.045 everything together. He has something important I think you should know. 0:15:37.885 --> 0:15:40.405 So she put me in contact with him. I reached 0:15:40.405 --> 0:15:43.645 out to him, and he apparently worked at a plumbing 0:15:43.685 --> 0:15:47.485 company back in twenty eighteen when Ebbie's body was found, 0:15:47.685 --> 0:15:50.605 and so he and his co worker that day they 0:15:50.645 --> 0:15:54.805 went out to de Chalamont Park because apparently I'm not 0:15:54.845 --> 0:15:57.485 sure if this is documented or not, but apparently there 0:15:57.525 --> 0:16:00.485 has been problems for months and months and months with 0:16:00.645 --> 0:16:04.445 the drainage system and the water system. The source of 0:16:04.445 --> 0:16:07.445 the problem was in the park obviously, so they took 0:16:07.445 --> 0:16:10.005 a look at it. They were like, hey, there's something 0:16:10.005 --> 0:16:13.325 that's clogging your drain like way way way back, something 0:16:13.365 --> 0:16:15.205 that we can't see. You need to call in someone 0:16:15.285 --> 0:16:18.445 from the city with the right equipment and cameras. You 0:16:18.485 --> 0:16:20.565 need to put a camera down there and see what's 0:16:20.685 --> 0:16:23.725 you know, obscuring this and like causing all these problems. 0:16:24.405 --> 0:16:27.005 So that's what they do. They put a camera down 0:16:27.045 --> 0:16:30.205 there and then not long after that's when they see 0:16:30.565 --> 0:16:34.405 human remains, and that's immediately when they called the police. 0:16:35.205 --> 0:16:38.525 So according to Astrid's source, it was actually the plumbing 0:16:38.565 --> 0:16:41.965 company who alerted the police to the remains instead of 0:16:42.005 --> 0:16:45.765 the department having a hunch. I have the phone number 0:16:45.765 --> 0:16:48.485 of one of the plumbers, but so far he's not 0:16:48.565 --> 0:16:52.485 calling me back, so right now I can't confirm this story. 0:16:53.245 --> 0:16:56.125 But Leslie, the person who told us about her son's 0:16:56.205 --> 0:16:59.445 encounter with Guy Hooper and a longtime resident in the area, 0:17:00.125 --> 0:17:04.365 told me that she had heard some similar stories. That's 0:17:04.405 --> 0:17:08.445 the story that was one everywhere. So neighbors were complaining 0:17:08.485 --> 0:17:12.485 to the city for a while about problems with that 0:17:12.605 --> 0:17:17.245 sewer and causing issues, and I did hear that more 0:17:17.285 --> 0:17:20.245 than once after they dug her up, and so I 0:17:20.405 --> 0:17:23.365 was like, oh, okay, Well then he comes on and says, 0:17:23.365 --> 0:17:25.965 oh no, and I'm totally contradictory, and I thought, well, 0:17:25.965 --> 0:17:28.365 maybe he's just protecting they were spinning it that way 0:17:28.445 --> 0:17:32.805 to protect the integrity of investigation. Yeah, they might really, 0:17:33.365 --> 0:17:35.165 I can understand that, And that's why it may be. 0:17:35.765 --> 0:17:39.045 I understand that you say things on the air, you know, 0:17:39.165 --> 0:17:43.125 in public that to protect the integrity of the investigation. 0:17:43.325 --> 0:17:45.685 Maybe he has a really strong lead and he's afraid 0:17:45.685 --> 0:17:49.165 to say anything, you know, Yeah, and because he doesn't 0:17:49.165 --> 0:17:54.605 want to jeopardize who he's got in his side. But no, now, 0:17:54.805 --> 0:17:57.925 both of these things could be true. Maybe the residents 0:17:57.965 --> 0:18:00.565 were having issues at around the same time that Tommy 0:18:00.645 --> 0:18:03.485 Hudson got the idea to put robots down the drain pipe. 0:18:04.325 --> 0:18:07.605 Moni also mentioned that he had a similar idea. It 0:18:07.725 --> 0:18:10.405 certainly seems like a logical step for a cold case 0:18:10.445 --> 0:18:14.325 investigator to take, but it does call into question, like 0:18:14.485 --> 0:18:18.005 so many other things, the information provided by the LRPD. 0:18:20.845 --> 0:18:24.405 Then there's the other piece of potentially crucial forensic evidence, 0:18:25.565 --> 0:18:28.885 that red or orange red towel, the one that was 0:18:28.925 --> 0:18:33.045 snaking out from the passenger seat of Ebby's car. By 0:18:33.165 --> 0:18:35.765 using what we do know about the crime scene, we 0:18:36.085 --> 0:18:39.925 can figure out some things about the perpetrator. We can 0:18:39.965 --> 0:18:42.565 deduce that it was someone who knew the area very well. 0:18:43.445 --> 0:18:45.605 I believe the towel was not, as one of the 0:18:45.645 --> 0:18:50.085 early investigators suggested, put outside the car by Ebby. In 0:18:50.165 --> 0:18:53.845 her last Instagram post, Ebby was pictured in what looked 0:18:53.885 --> 0:18:57.965 like the passenger seat of her car. I think it's 0:18:58.085 --> 0:19:01.125 far more likely that the towel was used to drag 0:19:01.165 --> 0:19:03.405 Ebby out of the car and down into the drain, 0:19:03.965 --> 0:19:07.285 either by someone lifting the man who cover or pushing 0:19:07.285 --> 0:19:10.845 her down into the gutter, or maybe it was a 0:19:10.845 --> 0:19:14.125 two man job. One person could have slid the body 0:19:14.165 --> 0:19:16.685 into the gutter while the other one waited at the 0:19:16.725 --> 0:19:19.405 bottom of that storm drain and pushed her body into 0:19:19.445 --> 0:19:23.445 the pipe. While I've worked on this case, I feel 0:19:23.445 --> 0:19:26.205 like I've gotten to know Ebby stepic and I feel 0:19:26.205 --> 0:19:30.845 like I understand her much better. Ebby compartmentalized her life 0:19:30.885 --> 0:19:33.725 and her friend groups, and because of that, a lot 0:19:33.765 --> 0:19:36.525 of her friends didn't know each other, and even if 0:19:36.525 --> 0:19:39.605 they did, they haven't talked each other in a long time. 0:19:41.085 --> 0:19:44.365 But now those people are older, some of them have 0:19:44.485 --> 0:19:47.325 kids of their own, and they may have gotten past 0:19:47.405 --> 0:19:49.845 the things that worried them when they were seventeen or eighteen. 0:19:50.685 --> 0:19:53.445 A lot of people are coming forward now and speaking out, 0:19:53.525 --> 0:19:54.725 what do you think? I mean, what do you think 0:19:54.765 --> 0:19:56.445 will happen? Do you think this will ever get solved? 0:19:58.525 --> 0:20:02.645 I definitely think so. I think that. I definitely think 0:20:02.685 --> 0:20:06.485 that regardless of whether or not it's you know, these 0:20:06.525 --> 0:20:08.805 guys that were at the party, or if it was 0:20:09.005 --> 0:20:13.005 the security guard, I think that, you know, the perpetrator 0:20:13.045 --> 0:20:15.845 had help. And it's really hard to keep a big 0:20:15.925 --> 0:20:23.605 secret like that. Somebody's gonna crack, and the end of 0:20:23.645 --> 0:20:26.445 this season does not mean the end of our investigation. 0:20:27.485 --> 0:20:30.085 Ebbie Steppock was like so many of us. She was 0:20:30.085 --> 0:20:32.605 a young woman. She had just turned eighteen. She was 0:20:32.605 --> 0:20:34.565 figuring out who she was going to be and what 0:20:34.685 --> 0:20:37.565 she was going to do with her life. She was 0:20:37.605 --> 0:20:41.365 sometimes flawed and sometimes naive, but she had a good heart. 0:20:42.045 --> 0:20:44.765 She was someone who stood up for other people. She 0:20:44.885 --> 0:20:48.525 was someone who loved her friends and family. When I 0:20:48.565 --> 0:20:51.885 stay up late at night, I replay all the possible 0:20:51.885 --> 0:20:55.165 scenarios in my head. I think about the horror and 0:20:55.285 --> 0:20:58.405 inhumanity of a person who could take someone in a 0:20:58.445 --> 0:21:01.605 vulnerable position like she was and put her down there 0:21:01.765 --> 0:21:06.525 alone in the dark. I absolutely believe that whoever did 0:21:06.565 --> 0:21:11.725 this was extremely calculating. They were calculating enough to possibly 0:21:11.805 --> 0:21:14.645 back her car into that parking spot near the manhole, 0:21:15.765 --> 0:21:18.485 and calculating enough to know that there was a thirteen 0:21:18.525 --> 0:21:21.725 inch concrete pipe all the way at the bottom of 0:21:21.725 --> 0:21:26.925 that storm drain. So once again, this podcast is a 0:21:26.965 --> 0:21:30.645 called action. I'm asking everyone in the community who may 0:21:30.645 --> 0:21:32.925 have been afraid to speak out, or worried about getting 0:21:32.925 --> 0:21:37.005 in trouble, or just not trusting of the police, I'm 0:21:37.045 --> 0:21:40.885 asking you to put that aside. I'm asking you to 0:21:41.005 --> 0:21:43.685 try to imagine if this was your friend or daughter 0:21:43.885 --> 0:21:47.645 or sister down there alone in the dark, you would 0:21:47.645 --> 0:21:49.165 want to go to the ends of the earth to 0:21:49.205 --> 0:21:53.045 find out who put her there. So we're not giving up. 0:21:53.565 --> 0:21:56.165 We're keeping the tip line open, and I'm going to 0:21:56.245 --> 0:21:59.125 continue to fight my hardest to figure out what really 0:21:59.205 --> 0:22:01.765 happened to Ebie Stepic and to try to get answers 0:22:01.805 --> 0:22:06.285 and justice for her family. I believe it's what Ebby 0:22:06.325 --> 0:22:10.605 would have done. I'm Katherine Townsend. This is Helen Gone. 0:22:13.725 --> 0:22:16.765 Helen Gone is a production of School of Humans and iHeartRadio. 0:22:17.285 --> 0:22:20.365 It's written and hosted by me Katherine Townsend and produced 0:22:20.365 --> 0:22:23.805 by Gabby Watts and Mike Doubt. Our executive producers are 0:22:23.805 --> 0:22:28.205 Brandon Barr, Else Crowley and Virginia Prescott. Mix and Master 0:22:28.325 --> 0:22:31.165