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Speaker 1: School of Humans. I have said many times before that

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Speaker 1: in a death investigation, everyone is lying about something. Some

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Speaker 1: lies are fairly innocent. Maybe someone covers for a friend

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Speaker 1: because they want to protect that person's reputation, or sometimes

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Speaker 1: a person doesn't want to admit that they were somewhere

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Speaker 1: they weren't supposed to be, or doing something that they

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Speaker 1: wanted to keep secret. This is the last episode of

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Speaker 1: season four. I said back at the beginning of this

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Speaker 1: season that we wanted to go through the process of elimination.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to put the evidence out there in the

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Speaker 1: most logical way, and then Malna called action so that

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Speaker 1: people would come forward and help us construct the timeline.

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Speaker 1: It's like deja vu all over again again. We're going

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Speaker 1: back to the timeline, back to the beginning of the investigation.

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Speaker 1: We've come full circle and we have to question everything

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Speaker 1: that we knew to be true. I'm a journalist and

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Speaker 1: an investigator, not a police officer. I don't have access

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Speaker 1: to case files. I can't make people talk to me. Instead,

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Speaker 1: my strategy has always been to try and get all

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Speaker 1: the information that is out there, to talk to as

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Speaker 1: many people as I can, and crucially to try to

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Speaker 1: spot in consistencies, and in this case, some people's stories

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Speaker 1: are not matching up. A big part of my job

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Speaker 1: is separating those little white lies from the lies that

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Speaker 1: indicate that a person could be hiding something truly horrifying.

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Speaker 1: I'm Catherine Townsend. This is hell and gone. Let's go

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Speaker 1: over what we figured out so far. At the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the case, there was a narrative that Ebbie had

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Speaker 1: been gang raped by four guys at a party, and

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Speaker 1: that this had been a big party. That's what a

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Speaker 1: lot of people thought, including Ebbie's friend Kayley, Like people

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Speaker 1: explained it like it was like a big, huge party

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Speaker 1: and there were so many people, and then now hearing

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Speaker 1: that like it was only a few friends. So I

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Speaker 1: didn't know about that at all either. But we now

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Speaker 1: know that this was just a small gathering of friends

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Speaker 1: and judging by Ebbie's messages that she was having a

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Speaker 1: conflict with one guy l because she believed that he

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Speaker 1: had videotaped her without her consent. Kayley also verifies this

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Speaker 1: from some of the screenshots that appeared on her phone storage.

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Speaker 1: It was just screenshots of herds falk into this one

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Speaker 1: guy on Instagram and she was like, your friend needs

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Speaker 1: to delete up video, like it's not okay. I didn't

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Speaker 1: know that he was trying to take a video, and

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Speaker 1: she was like, if you don't delete it, I'll get

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Speaker 1: the cops involved. And then he was just like, no,

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Speaker 1: you don't need to do that. We don't need to

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Speaker 1: get them involved. This sounds very similar to the social

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Speaker 1: media exchanges that we saw. Ebbie was contacting C to

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Speaker 1: get L's info, and C seemed to be cooperative. Though

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Speaker 1: these guys had been treated in a lot of media

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Speaker 1: stories as the only suspects, we found no evidence that

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Speaker 1: there had been any communication between C and L and

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Speaker 1: Ebbie after early Saturday. Then there's the car. In the beginning,

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Speaker 1: the only story that we ever heard was that the

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Speaker 1: security guard, Guy Hooper, had reported Ebbie's abandoned car. Then

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Speaker 1: we found the incident report, the one that showed that

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Speaker 1: it was Lee, the neighbor, and not the security guard

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Speaker 1: who reported Ebbie's car on Friday, October thirtieth. We still

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Speaker 1: have questions about Saturday night. We know that Ebby saw

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Speaker 1: Eric probably late on Friday night, and spent the rest

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Speaker 1: of the night there. At some point on Saturday, she

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Speaker 1: went to her brother's house. She saw Danielle. She spent

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Speaker 1: the afternoon at her grandparents. Then she exchanged those Instagram

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Speaker 1: messages with Eric late on Saturday afternoon, letting him know

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Speaker 1: that she was okay. On Saturday night, Trevor went to

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Speaker 1: a wedding out of town, so Ebby could not stay

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Speaker 1: at his house. It seemed like her plans changed after

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Speaker 1: the assault. She didn't go out of town or to

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Speaker 1: the church event to meet Danielle. It's possible that she

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Speaker 1: could have met another friend on Saturday night. We know

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Speaker 1: that she talked to Leo shortly after the assault, and

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Speaker 1: according to our source, she seemed distraught. Kaylee also told

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Speaker 1: us about someone else who she introduced Ebby two, someone

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Speaker 1: who had smoked pot with Ebbie recently, and someone who

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Speaker 1: was the cause of friction between Ebby and her parents.

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Speaker 1: His name is Charles. Charles was one of Kayley's managers

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Speaker 1: at Big Rock Fun Park, where she got a job

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Speaker 1: after leaving Playtime Pizza. That's the job where she met

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Speaker 1: and became friends with Ebby. Apparently, Ebby's parents got upset

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Speaker 1: because Ebbie was hanging out with Charles, who they considered

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Speaker 1: about influence, and Kayley believed that by extension that meant

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Speaker 1: they considered her about influence. We know that Ebby was

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Speaker 1: going through a tough time, but again, there is zero

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Speaker 1: indication that she was suicidal. Unfortunately, Trevor passed away, so

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Speaker 1: there's no way to know exactly what he heard in

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Speaker 1: his last conversation with Ebbie. But there was someone else

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Speaker 1: who was there during that conversation, someone who overheard Trevor

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Speaker 1: and Ebby talking that Sunday, right before she disappeared. We'll

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Speaker 1: be right back. The person who overheard Trevor and Ebby's

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Speaker 1: conversation was Rebecca. Rebecca and Trevor had known each other

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Speaker 1: for a long time. They were friends who had reconnected

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Speaker 1: and started dating. They were living together in twenty fifteen

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Speaker 1: when Ebbie came to stay with them. She says she

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Speaker 1: doesn't think she has any helpful information, but she did

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Speaker 1: help confirm a lot of the details that we had

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Speaker 1: been hearing secondhand. I didn't see her a whole lot, really,

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Speaker 1: because she was young, you know, had friends hung out,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I just didn't see her a lot.

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Speaker 1: But then I don't know what all happened, but she

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Speaker 1: was going through some hard times. For whatever reason, she

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Speaker 1: moved in with Trevor and I I think it was

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Speaker 1: around August of twenty fifteen. Yeah, I think that was

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Speaker 1: about right because she was just needing the place to

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Speaker 1: stay and going through a lot, and you know, we

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Speaker 1: went to like Harvest Best together. She would go to work.

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Speaker 1: I think she worked at Lady Footlocker. She's super sweet,

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Speaker 1: but just not super like open, like you know, she's

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Speaker 1: not going to just come up and hug in start

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Speaker 1: talking to you forever. So I didn't get to know

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Speaker 1: her personally super well, even though she lived there. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: she was a sweetheart. I think she's from what I've like,

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Speaker 1: I've talked to a lot of people now and it

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Speaker 1: seems like, you know, there's a lot going on. She

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Speaker 1: tended to kind of compartmentalize different. I remember sometimes I

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Speaker 1: would come in and she would be laying on the

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Speaker 1: couch and she the TV would be on, but she

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Speaker 1: wouldn't even be looking at it. She would just be

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Speaker 1: kind of looking up into space, like just thinking, you know,

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Speaker 1: because yeah, she did that a lot when she would

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Speaker 1: come to you gu's house. Did she tend to leave

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Speaker 1: her car there? Did she let other people drive her car?

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Speaker 1: She never brought anything or anyone over to our house,

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Speaker 1: so and I never saw her leave with anyone, like.

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Speaker 1: She would always leave alone in her car and come

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Speaker 1: back alone, like I never saw anyone else. And she

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Speaker 1: would even go and hang out with us a couple

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Speaker 1: of times, like I said, of harvest fests and things

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Speaker 1: like that. But she was just super chilled, super quiet,

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Speaker 1: super and she made a lot of like Instagram videos

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Speaker 1: while she was at our house. And I've been a

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Speaker 1: cute but she just was very kind of I don't

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Speaker 1: want to say, a loaner. What I saw was that

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Speaker 1: she was a loaner. I don't guess she was out

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Speaker 1: there in the world, but for it. As far as

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Speaker 1: when she got home, she was, she was alone. Rebecca

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Speaker 1: confirms that she and Trevor went to the wedding on

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Speaker 1: Saturday night and Trevor didn't want Ebby to stay at

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Speaker 1: the house while they were out, and so the weekend

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Speaker 1: when she went missing, you were sort of temping about

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Speaker 1: I wonder if you could just tell me about the call.

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Speaker 1: What happened we I want to say, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't remember, but I want to say. It was a Sunday.

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Speaker 1: It was a lazy day at home, not working, so

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Speaker 1: I feel like it was a Sunday, So we're like

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Speaker 1: wondering where she went at his friend's house. You know,

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Speaker 1: we weren't concerned. She was like seventeen, eighteen year old girl.

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Speaker 1: We know, you know, we've been that age. We weren't

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Speaker 1: worried about where she was. But she called and he's like,

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Speaker 1: where are you, Like, you know, why haven't you been home?

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Speaker 1: And she said I am here. And we were all

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Speaker 1: sitting in the living room when she said that. He

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Speaker 1: put her on speaking phone and she's like, yeah, I'm here,

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Speaker 1: and Trevor gets up and he goes and looks in

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Speaker 1: the driveway. Her car's not there, and so he's like,

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Speaker 1: you're not here, ebbie, and she's like, yes, i am.

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Speaker 1: And anyway, she hangs up the phone and Trevor starts

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Speaker 1: crying and I'm like, why are you crying? Like she's

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Speaker 1: just you know, whatever is it. I wasn't worried once

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Speaker 1: again at all. For some reason, I just didn't expect

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Speaker 1: her to come up missing, So not worried, not worried,

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Speaker 1: And she's like Finally he gets back on the phone

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Speaker 1: with her, and she's like, I'm fucked up. And that's

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Speaker 1: all she would say over and over again. And he's like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god. And then at that point I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is not good. She's somewhere, it doesn't know where

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Speaker 1: she's at, and she's messed up. So we're like, we've

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Speaker 1: got to find you, you know. And I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I really don't know if like she hung up, never

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Speaker 1: answered again, or why they didn't continue talking, but I

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Speaker 1: doant to know. As they got off the phone with

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Speaker 1: each other, and we started driving up and down Cantroll

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Speaker 1: and Ronnie's Caam and going places we thought she might be.

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Speaker 1: So we were just driving all around West led her on,

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Speaker 1: just trying to find her. Didn't find her, talking to everybody.

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Speaker 1: Laurie at that point started getting really freaking out and

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Speaker 1: called the police, and there you go. That was the

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Speaker 1: last time I ever heard from her. And when she

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Speaker 1: was on speaker phone, I mean, other than her saying

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Speaker 1: I'm sucked up, did she say anything else or did

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Speaker 1: you hear anything else that sounded like the could be

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Speaker 1: anyone around her? Not really, not at all. I mean,

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Speaker 1: she she just sounded like she was confused and she

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Speaker 1: didn't know where she was, and she sounded very sad,

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Speaker 1: like she was very upset. I don't know what she

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Speaker 1: was upset about, but she was very like, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry for custom, but she's like, I'm sucked up, Like

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Speaker 1: you know, I just remember her saying it like that

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Speaker 1: over and over again, like she couldn't believe it, or

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Speaker 1: like I don't know and I can't think of anything

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Speaker 1: that would make me think I was somewhere else, Like

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Speaker 1: it had to have been something really strong or like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but it was. She didn't slur her words,

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Speaker 1: she wasn't. She didn't sound messed up. She just said

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Speaker 1: she was It's so weird. I don't know, but she

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Speaker 1: didn't like, she didn't sound like she was about to

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Speaker 1: fall down and drink. And I can tell you that, like,

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Speaker 1: no way on Saturday night when y'all were at the

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Speaker 1: wedding did she ever think anything about where she was

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Speaker 1: going or like why she wasn't. I guess she wasn't

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Speaker 1: saying at your place because it's because y'all weren't going

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Speaker 1: to be there. Yeah, Her and Trevor like argued about

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Speaker 1: it because Trevor was like, why can't you just say

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Speaker 1: at your friend's house tonight? You know, I know you're

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Speaker 1: gonna have people over I can't remember exactly what he said,

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Speaker 1: but he's trying to make her a little bit more responsible, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: how to make sure she took care of her where

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Speaker 1: she was going, you know, trying to be the bigger brother. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: she didn't, and she wanted to hang out with her friends. Again,

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Speaker 1: totally understandable, but she never told us, like like again

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Speaker 1: when we would go to work every day, like we

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Speaker 1: didn't know what she did all day long. You know,

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Speaker 1: we don't know. I don't know. I guess that's part

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Speaker 1: of being like a thirty year old with a nineteen

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Speaker 1: year old. You're just not super parent parential yet. So

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Speaker 1: we didn't like keep great calves on her, you know,

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Speaker 1: we just have her, let her live there and go

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Speaker 1: as she pleased because she's you know, she wouldn't our kids.

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Speaker 1: I wish imber, but it now, Yeah, so it's just

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Speaker 1: I don't know it. So Rebecca says the police never

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Speaker 1: reached out to her. I don't know why the police

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Speaker 1: never reached out to me, not that I have any information,

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Speaker 1: if you can see, but I watched TV and I

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Speaker 1: know that like every tiny detail matters, But like I

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Speaker 1: was reaching out to the detective that we uf. Lourie

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Speaker 1: kind of gave everybody, like all of Trevor's friends, this

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Speaker 1: number to call if we saw anything, because we were

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Speaker 1: all drunk around looking for he a car like her

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Speaker 1: driving around. We thought she had like ran away and

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Speaker 1: that she didn't want to be found. But we were

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Speaker 1: trying to find her type of situation at first, and

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Speaker 1: I would be calling that number trying. I thought I

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Speaker 1: saw her car one time, so I called it and

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Speaker 1: left a message, and I'm like, oh my gosh, you'll

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Speaker 1: have to answer me. No one ever called me back.

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Speaker 1: Like it was very frustrating. It's a nightmare mess, Like

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Speaker 1: they did not take it serious at first, and then

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Speaker 1: they didn't even do the right things when they did

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Speaker 1: start taking it seriously, and literally Laurie had to fight

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Speaker 1: tooth and nail for them to even try to figure

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Speaker 1: out what happened, like or find her. I mean, it's disgusting, really.

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Speaker 1: She says, she'll call us back if she can think

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Speaker 1: of anything else. We'll be right back. Technically, the police

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Speaker 1: investigation into Ebbie's death is still classified as open, so

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Speaker 1: police won't officially close the case, but Detective Bruce Maxwell

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Speaker 1: recently told Laurie his theory is that Ebbie somehow crawled

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Speaker 1: into that pipe herself. But as we've seen from our

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Speaker 1: multiple visits to the crime scene and from what everyone

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Speaker 1: is said about Ebbie's behavior, Detective Maxwell's theory makes zero

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Speaker 1: sense to me. I know you've told me before, but

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Speaker 1: just for the podcast purposes, can you just tell me

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Speaker 1: how you knew Ebbie and how you first sort of

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Speaker 1: like got the idea and started to make a podcast. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so Ebbie and I knew each other as kids. I

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Speaker 1: must have been, oh god, this is Astrid. She knew

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Speaker 1: Ebbie and elementary school, and in twenty twenty she started

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Speaker 1: compiling her own podcast called Subterfuge and Shall Want Park.

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Speaker 1: And she told me that Ebbie's case has had a

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Speaker 1: huge impact on the community. Ebbie's case especially has been

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Speaker 1: at the top of everyone's mind since twenty fifteen. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: people are still like very angry about this, and it

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Speaker 1: seems like they've lost a significant amount of trust in

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Speaker 1: law enforcement and Little Rock, which is really sad because

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Speaker 1: you know, there's supposed to be a resource there to help,

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Speaker 1: but this just seems to have done like a lot

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Speaker 1: of damage in people's psyches. Astrid reached out to me

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Speaker 1: after this podcast stared airing. We've been talking about some

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Speaker 1: of the rumors that surrounded Ebbie's case and about how

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Speaker 1: important it is to clear up these misconceptions so that

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Speaker 1: we can understand what's actually going on in order to

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Speaker 1: move this case forward. One of the things Astrid says

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Speaker 1: she questioned was the way that Ebby's body was found.

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Speaker 1: Tommy Hudson said that he had sent robots down into

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Speaker 1: the drain system in the park and that after they

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Speaker 1: hit an obstruction, they dug up that pipe and Ebbie's

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Speaker 1: remains were identified, but Astrid said that she heard a

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Speaker 1: different story. I think it was after I released the

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Speaker 1: second episode, so kind of right out a year ago.

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Speaker 1: I got this message from a girl and basically it

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Speaker 1: was like, you need to talk to one of my

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Speaker 1: ex boyfriends. Like he didn't have anything to do with it,

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Speaker 1: It's just he has something that might help you piece

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Speaker 1: everything together. He has something important I think you should know.

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Speaker 1: So she put me in contact with him. I reached

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Speaker 1: out to him, and he apparently worked at a plumbing

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Speaker 1: company back in twenty eighteen when Ebbie's body was found,

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Speaker 1: and so he and his co worker that day they

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Speaker 1: went out to de Chalamont Park because apparently I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure if this is documented or not, but apparently there

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Speaker 1: has been problems for months and months and months with

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Speaker 1: the drainage system and the water system. The source of

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Speaker 1: the problem was in the park obviously, so they took

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Speaker 1: a look at it. They were like, hey, there's something

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Speaker 1: that's clogging your drain like way way way back, something

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Speaker 1: that we can't see. You need to call in someone

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Speaker 1: from the city with the right equipment and cameras. You

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Speaker 1: need to put a camera down there and see what's

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Speaker 1: you know, obscuring this and like causing all these problems.

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Speaker 1: So that's what they do. They put a camera down

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Speaker 1: there and then not long after that's when they see

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Speaker 1: human remains, and that's immediately when they called the police.

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Speaker 1: So according to Astrid's source, it was actually the plumbing

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Speaker 1: company who alerted the police to the remains instead of

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Speaker 1: the department having a hunch. I have the phone number

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Speaker 1: of one of the plumbers, but so far he's not

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Speaker 1: calling me back, so right now I can't confirm this story.

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Speaker 1: But Leslie, the person who told us about her son's

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Speaker 1: encounter with Guy Hooper and a longtime resident in the area,

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Speaker 1: told me that she had heard some similar stories. That's

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Speaker 1: the story that was one everywhere. So neighbors were complaining

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Speaker 1: to the city for a while about problems with that

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Speaker 1: sewer and causing issues, and I did hear that more

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Speaker 1: than once after they dug her up, and so I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, okay, Well then he comes on and says,

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Speaker 1: oh no, and I'm totally contradictory, and I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe he's just protecting they were spinning it that way

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Speaker 1: to protect the integrity of investigation. Yeah, they might really,

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Speaker 1: I can understand that, And that's why it may be.

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Speaker 1: I understand that you say things on the air, you know,

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Speaker 1: in public that to protect the integrity of the investigation.

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Speaker 1: Maybe he has a really strong lead and he's afraid

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Speaker 1: to say anything, you know, Yeah, and because he doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to jeopardize who he's got in his side. But no, now,

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Speaker 1: both of these things could be true. Maybe the residents

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Speaker 1: were having issues at around the same time that Tommy

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Speaker 1: Hudson got the idea to put robots down the drain pipe.

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Speaker 1: Moni also mentioned that he had a similar idea. It

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Speaker 1: certainly seems like a logical step for a cold case

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Speaker 1: investigator to take, but it does call into question, like

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Speaker 1: so many other things, the information provided by the LRPD.

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Speaker 1: Then there's the other piece of potentially crucial forensic evidence,

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Speaker 1: that red or orange red towel, the one that was

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Speaker 1: snaking out from the passenger seat of Ebby's car. By

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Speaker 1: using what we do know about the crime scene, we

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Speaker 1: can figure out some things about the perpetrator. We can

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Speaker 1: deduce that it was someone who knew the area very well.

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Speaker 1: I believe the towel was not, as one of the

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Speaker 1: early investigators suggested, put outside the car by Ebby. In

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Speaker 1: her last Instagram post, Ebby was pictured in what looked

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Speaker 1: like the passenger seat of her car. I think it's

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Speaker 1: far more likely that the towel was used to drag

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Speaker 1: Ebby out of the car and down into the drain,

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Speaker 1: either by someone lifting the man who cover or pushing

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Speaker 1: her down into the gutter, or maybe it was a

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Speaker 1: two man job. One person could have slid the body

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Speaker 1: into the gutter while the other one waited at the

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Speaker 1: bottom of that storm drain and pushed her body into

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Speaker 1: the pipe. While I've worked on this case, I feel

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Speaker 1: like I've gotten to know Ebby stepic and I feel

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Speaker 1: like I understand her much better. Ebby compartmentalized her life

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Speaker 1: and her friend groups, and because of that, a lot

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Speaker 1: of her friends didn't know each other, and even if

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Speaker 1: they did, they haven't talked each other in a long time.

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Speaker 1: But now those people are older, some of them have

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Speaker 1: kids of their own, and they may have gotten past

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Speaker 1: the things that worried them when they were seventeen or eighteen.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people are coming forward now and speaking out,

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Speaker 1: what do you think? I mean, what do you think

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Speaker 1: will happen? Do you think this will ever get solved?

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Speaker 1: I definitely think so. I think that. I definitely think

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Speaker 1: that regardless of whether or not it's you know, these

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Speaker 1: guys that were at the party, or if it was

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Speaker 1: the security guard, I think that, you know, the perpetrator

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Speaker 1: had help. And it's really hard to keep a big

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Speaker 1: secret like that. Somebody's gonna crack, and the end of

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Speaker 1: this season does not mean the end of our investigation.

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Speaker 1: Ebbie Steppock was like so many of us. She was

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Speaker 1: a young woman. She had just turned eighteen. She was

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Speaker 1: figuring out who she was going to be and what

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Speaker 1: she was going to do with her life. She was

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Speaker 1: sometimes flawed and sometimes naive, but she had a good heart.

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Speaker 1: She was someone who stood up for other people. She

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Speaker 1: was someone who loved her friends and family. When I

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Speaker 1: stay up late at night, I replay all the possible

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Speaker 1: scenarios in my head. I think about the horror and

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Speaker 1: inhumanity of a person who could take someone in a

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Speaker 1: vulnerable position like she was and put her down there

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Speaker 1: alone in the dark. I absolutely believe that whoever did

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Speaker 1: this was extremely calculating. They were calculating enough to possibly

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Speaker 1: back her car into that parking spot near the manhole,

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Speaker 1: and calculating enough to know that there was a thirteen

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Speaker 1: inch concrete pipe all the way at the bottom of

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Speaker 1: that storm drain. So once again, this podcast is a

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Speaker 1: called action. I'm asking everyone in the community who may

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Speaker 1: have been afraid to speak out, or worried about getting

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Speaker 1: in trouble, or just not trusting of the police, I'm

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Speaker 1: asking you to put that aside. I'm asking you to

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Speaker 1: try to imagine if this was your friend or daughter

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Speaker 1: or sister down there alone in the dark, you would

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Speaker 1: want to go to the ends of the earth to

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Speaker 1: find out who put her there. So we're not giving up.

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Speaker 1: We're keeping the tip line open, and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: continue to fight my hardest to figure out what really

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Speaker 1: happened to Ebie Stepic and to try to get answers

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Speaker 1: and justice for her family. I believe it's what Ebby

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Speaker 1: would have done. I'm Katherine Townsend. This is Helen Gone.

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Speaker 1: Helen Gone is a production of School of Humans and iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's written and hosted by me Katherine Townsend and produced

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Speaker 1: by Gabby Watts and Mike Doubt. Our executive producers are

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Speaker 1: Brandon Barr, Else Crowley and Virginia Prescott. Mix and Master

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Speaker 1: is by Ryan Peoples, and our music is by Bensley.

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Speaker 1: If you have any information regarding Ebby's case, please call

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Speaker 1: or text our tipline at six seven eight six three

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Speaker 1: two six one five nine. School of Humans. School of

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Speaker 1: Humans