1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Early in the morning 2 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: on October nineteenth, nineteen, in a little town in Idaho, 3 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: a lady who was in her late forties was found 4 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: de ceased and for whatever reason still remains a mystery 5 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 1: to this day, the decision was made for an autopsy 6 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: not to be performed. And Letty's name is Tammy day 7 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: Bell and her case is critical and a much broader 8 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: investigation that's going on. As a matter of fact, the 9 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: absence of an autopsy in that case could have severe 10 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: repercussions moving forward. Today, we're gonna be discussing autopsies, what 11 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: they are, who makes a determination as to when they occur. 12 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna tell you a little bit about my 13 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 1: background with autopsis. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 14 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: Body Bags. I've been involved in death investigation for the 15 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: majority of my adult life, either working in the morgue, 16 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: out of the field as an investigator or now as 17 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: an academic talking about medical legal death investigation every single 18 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: day that I walk into school. And my friend Jackie Howard, 19 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: who is the executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 20 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: Jackie We've talked about autopsies a lot, haven't we we have, Joe, 21 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: And the more that we talk about it, the more 22 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: that I want to know. Was as we laid out 23 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: our plans for what we wanted to discuss the day, 24 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: the questions just started pouring. So I figured the best 25 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: place to start is with a simple question, what is 26 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: an autopsy? An autopsy is essentially, there's another way to 27 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: put this, it's essentially a post mortem examination. And that's 28 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 1: in a very very broad sense. But when you hear 29 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: the term autopsy, it conjures up images of an old, 30 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: dilapidated morgue. You've got more personnel running about, there's coolers 31 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: where bodies are stored in generally a stainless steel table, 32 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: and that's that's not too far off the mark. But 33 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: we have to understand that when we conduct an autopsy, 34 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: we're trying to determine what exactly happened, what brought about 35 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: the death of an individual that was not necessarily otherwise explained. 36 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: And so when you begin to go down this owd 37 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: in the autopsy suite, you know some people, interestingly enough, 38 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: historically they've they've referred to in the historic record as 39 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: doctors that do autopsies, they will refer to them as 40 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: surgical pathology, and surgical pathology now means like you've got 41 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: a doctor that goes up to surgery that's a pathologist 42 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: and they look at frozen sections of tumors that have 43 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: been removed from people. They'll look at them instantaneously and 44 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: try to give you a diagnosis. But there is a 45 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: part to surgical pathology that goes along with autopsy examinations 46 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: where the pathologists will engage in literally the dissection or 47 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: pro section of human remains to try to determine what 48 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: exactly brought about the death. Because absent those clinical diagnoses 49 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: that you arrive at by virtue of doing these examinations, 50 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: you don't actually have a final or fatal diagnosis. The 51 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: biggest questions that families have, that can unities have is 52 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: absolutely what happened, How did they die, When did they die, 53 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: what was the mechanism that brought about their death, and 54 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: hopefully through an autopsy you can make that determination. One 55 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: of the things that you said just Sin Joe really 56 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: caught my attention, and it was having to do with 57 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: when an autopsy has done and when is it not done. 58 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: I find it really interesting in the Tammy Day Bell case. 59 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: As you mentioned that an autopsy was not initially done. 60 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: Who determines that and why would you not? I mean, 61 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: I know, in certain especially in the elderly, when it's 62 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: thought to be natural causes, they don't necessarily do an 63 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,239 Speaker 1: autopsy to try to figure out why this person died. 64 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: So who makes that determination and why? Well, ultimately it's 65 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: going to be the lead medical legal authority in a jurisdiction. 66 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: And you got to back up and understand that in 67 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: the United States in particular, we have two separate of systems. Here. 68 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: You have corner systems, which are elected officials and they 69 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: they're not necessarily always physicians. As a matter of fact, 70 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: most of the the time they're not physicians. People will be 71 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: surprised to hear that. And then you have medical examiner systems, 72 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: which are essentially run by physicians who many times are 73 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: in fact forensic pathologists. So it really varies from state 74 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: to state who's going to make the determination. Most of 75 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: the time, the state statute, that is, the state law 76 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: will dictate who has the authority to make a decision 77 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: about an autopsy. And contrary to popular belief, I hear 78 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: and famously with the Tammy Daviel case, it was stated 79 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: that it was the family's wishes not to have an 80 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: autopsy performed in her case, and kind of sitting there 81 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: scratching your head and saying, I got a healthy young 82 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,679 Speaker 1: woman here that's out and running every day and seems 83 00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: vibrant and healthy. Why in the world would you not 84 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: one an autopsy? And there's a many layers to that. 85 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: Families don't want to think about their their family members 86 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: undergoing this procedure. They don't want to think about everything 87 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: that's involved with it. They just want to go to 88 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: the funeral home with the remains. But unfortunately, if it's 89 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: not done, and it's not done in a timely fashion, 90 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: one or two things is going to happen. Either you'll 91 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: never have answers to those questions, or in Tammy Davel's case, 92 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: she had been in bomb transport to another state and 93 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: had been buried. Even after her body is exhumed in 94 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: that case, any kind of findings that there may have 95 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: been originally, they're going to be so compromised by the 96 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: time it's really gonna be difficult to make heads or tails. 97 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: So most of the time it will be depended upon 98 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: what the medical legal authority again back to medical exam 99 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: or corner views as the best interest at that point 100 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: in time to come up with an answer, scientific valid 101 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: answer to try to determine what brought about this person's 102 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: sudden death. And it is not dependent upon what the 103 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: family wants. Okay, now that sounds cruel, but you know 104 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: most of the time families are in no position to 105 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: make that decision. And also there are a greater interest 106 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: at work here, and we can go down the list. 107 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: You got a homicide, this happened. Family is not going 108 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: to have any weight given to their their protest about 109 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: an autopsy not being performed in that case because it's obvious, 110 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: but you have to document it if you're going to 111 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: prosecute a case. And then you have these kind of 112 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: mysterious circumstances where you don't have any answers. And let 113 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: me ask you something you're in relating to what you're 114 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: talking about, CANNA can and autopsy be done even though 115 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: the family doesn't want it to be. I mean like 116 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: in this in this case, the family said that an 117 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: autopsy was not necessary here, it could the corner or 118 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: the medical personnel have said, then we're doing an autopsy anyway, 119 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: they have authority under state law to do that. They 120 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: can say, well, I respect what you're saying, I understand 121 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: why you might not want one done, but there's bigger 122 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: interest at work here. We have to make a determination 123 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: about manner and cause of death here and find out 124 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: what exactly happened, and there's there's reasons why you do that. 125 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: First off, it's a mystery that you have to have 126 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: an answer for the corner or the medical examiner is 127 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: going to be the one that actually, you know, you 128 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: hear the term death certificate. People don't think about that. 129 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: That means the death is being certified. Okay, Well, if 130 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: you don't have a reason that is put forth as 131 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: a result of a pathology finding where you're looking for 132 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: disease or some kind of mechanism of death, what are 133 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: you gonna list as a cause of death gunshot wound 134 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: or mio cardial infarction or lung cancer, leukemia, or whatever 135 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: it is the person has going on in dwelling within 136 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: their body or some kind of external event that occurred 137 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: bring about their death. If you don't go in and 138 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: actually examine that and and make a note of that 139 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: and make an absolute diagnosis, how are you going to 140 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: do that? How are you going to list the cause 141 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: of death? I mean, you can't just like it doesn't 142 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: just come to you psychically out of the air. You 143 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: have to see it. It's it's a scientific procedure, it's 144 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: a it's a study. And then how are you going 145 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: to list the manner of death? We've only got five 146 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: that choose from natural, suicide, homicide, unexplained, undetermined. You've got 147 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: all of those that you have to choose from as well. 148 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: So if you have nothing to put on the death certificate, 149 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: you're gonna have a death certificate. It's going to remain 150 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: probably incomplete for a protracted period of time because you're 151 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: asking for the official to put down an official diagnosis 152 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: in an official manner of death that they don't have 153 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: any insight into. And of course the autopsy itself is 154 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: the best way to do that. Glorious sadder Field having 155 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: to do with the case of the Myrtles over in 156 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 1: South Carolina, Gloria Sadderfield, the Myrdals housekeeper reportedly tripped over 157 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: dogs going down the stairs outside the home the brick stairway, 158 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: Yet her cause of death, if I'm not mistaken, was 159 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: listed as natural causes. Yeah, it is super bizarre, you know, 160 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: particularly the case of Glorious Sadderfield. You've got a woman 161 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: that had obviously sustained some type of very specific head 162 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: trauma that brought her to the hospital. And one of 163 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: the ways I teach my students, there's that old point 164 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: that we talk about and I don't know, folks, I'm 165 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: not going to recite the whole thing. I'll spare spare 166 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: the audience that the old the old point that goes, 167 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: you know, for the one of a nail, the shoe 168 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: was lost. For the one of the shoe, a horse 169 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: was lost. For the one of a horse, a rider 170 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 1: was lost, a message was lost, and so forth and 171 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: so on. So you have a genesis in the beginning 172 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: as to how all of these dominoes begin to fall. 173 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: And in sadder Field's case, well, what brought her to 174 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: the hospital. Was it that she had a cardiac event? 175 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: Was that that she had a stroke, Was it that 176 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: she got struck by lightning? Well, none of the above. 177 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: She fell and sustained head trauma. But yet they're listing 178 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: this whole event as a natural event. And here's here's 179 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 1: what's crazy about that case. Is that a private attending 180 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: physician signed her death certificate, and this case was never 181 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: reported to the corner. Listen, if a person rolls into 182 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: the hospital as a result of a traumatic event and 183 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: they don't exit that hospital and they die inside the walls, 184 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: and I don't care how long they've been in the hospital. 185 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: If they come in as a result of trauma and 186 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: that trauma is directly related to their death, that is 187 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: a reportable case. And it's my understanding the case was 188 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: never even reported to the corner. And that's a problem 189 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: because the corner is not aware. They can't make a 190 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: decision about whether or not an autopsy should be performed, 191 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: or she had been in for a while, so they're 192 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: going to request the records and examine the records, all 193 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: of the imaging, everything that comes along with that, and 194 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: they'll sign the death certificate. But you know, a private 195 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,719 Speaker 1: physician can't list a traumatic cause of death, and they 196 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: can't qualify a traumatic cause of death. So priva physician 197 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: can't say blunt force trauma and the manner of death 198 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: is homicide or accident, that will get rejected most of 199 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: the time, that's going to be rejected by the state 200 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: Health department. Whoever handles all of the paperwork, the public 201 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: health agency that handles a paperwork for the state, and 202 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: that's why it always goes back to the corner. But 203 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: if the corner is not aware of it, the death 204 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: has not been reported, it's gonna be a problem going forward. 205 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 1: So then the question begs to be answered once a 206 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 1: decision is made to do an autopsy, is what kind 207 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 1: of an autopsy is there going to be? If it's 208 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: an autopsy is always the same you start with A 209 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: through Z or are there truly different kinds of autopsies? 210 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: There are different degrees to autopsies. When you bring a 211 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: body into a morgue, for instance, you can do what's 212 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: called an external examination, which means that the body will 213 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: be completely photographed as is upon arrival. That means with 214 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: clothing on. Okay, some places actually do X rays just 215 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: so that they have them. You disrobe the body, the 216 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,599 Speaker 1: pathologists and their assistant do a complete and total examination 217 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: of the body unclothed. Then, in addition to that, you're 218 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: going to draw samples for toxicology, and what these are 219 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: gonna be is you'll draw what's referred to as heart blood. 220 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: Most of the time you're gonna try to and this 221 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: is externally and it's drawn from the A order. So 222 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: folks will find their collar bone on the left hand 223 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,719 Speaker 1: side and go down the intercostal spaces, which is kind 224 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: of the muscle in betwe each rib group and go 225 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: down about the third intercostal space in the ribs on 226 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: the front side, okay, adjacent to the sternal. There will 227 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: be a needle inserted there and it will go into 228 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: the A order, which is the big the big vessel 229 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: that comes off the curved vessel that comes off of 230 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: the top of the heart. And it takes practice to 231 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: learn how to do this, but over a period of 232 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: time there's we do it by touch. It's something that 233 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: we can do, and then you draw blood out of 234 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: that area and then we take another needle and we 235 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: draw externally. We will draw urine, and finally we'll draw 236 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: vitreous fluid which comes from the eye, and all of 237 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: those fluids are submitted for toxicology and we'll run the 238 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: entire panel. But to the the broader question here, that's 239 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: the first kind of stop along the continuum where we're 240 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: doing an external examination and it doesn't rise to the 241 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: same level as a full autopsy or even a partial autopsy, 242 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: which I'm not a fan of. But you just do 243 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: the external examination. You draw the fluids, and then those 244 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: are submitted generally to either a local hospital or state 245 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: crime lab, and you run a drug panel, and you 246 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: already have a suspicion. If you're going to do an 247 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: external examination, you already have a suspicion that you might 248 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: know what caused death is, but you just want to 249 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: rule out everything else and kind of external trauma. Maybe 250 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: the person died and they weren't found for a while, 251 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: and then you'll move forward. Maybe you can even get 252 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: the private physician if it's a natural death, which if 253 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: you're not doing an autopsy, it's probably a natural death. 254 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: The private physician can sign the death certificate and the 255 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: list of specific cause of death. Again, back to acute 256 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: mild cardial infarction, which is essentially a fancy way of 257 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: saying a heart attack, and that is a natural classified 258 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: as a natural death. Now you'll have events that pathologists 259 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: will make a decision or the enemy of the corner 260 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: will make a decision. We're only going to a partial autopsy. 261 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: And I have a problem with this because it's like 262 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: you've got one foot in the water and one foot 263 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: in the boat. If you're gonna do it, commit to it. 264 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: Do it. And they're even cases like if you have suicides, 265 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: for instance, subject has sustained a gunshot woman the head, 266 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: they might only in certain jurisdictions they might actually only 267 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: only open the head, for instance, and retrieve a projectile, 268 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: and then they don't touch the rest of the body. 269 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: And that's a problem. It can be a problem everybody 270 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: needs to understand. Foundationally, in the medical legal world, our 271 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: supposition is this, and everything that we do we work 272 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: under this big banner that says every death, not some deaths, 273 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: not a few deaths. We from jump Street. We go 274 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: forward with this idea that every death is in fact 275 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: a homicide until we can prove otherwise. Okay, Because if 276 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: you start out at that really intense high level of 277 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: trying to make a determination about homicide, as you kind 278 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: of make your way through these checklists that we have, 279 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: you get to the next level maybe accent or suicide, 280 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: and then you get to maybe natural and you've kind 281 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: of checked the boxes along the way. You have to 282 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,719 Speaker 1: be able to effectively rule all these things out. So 283 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: back to this idea of partial autopsy. If you're only 284 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 1: gonna do a partial autopsy, why why not go ahead 285 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: and do the entire autopsy? In that way, it's complete. 286 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: It's only gonna take you maybe another forty five minutes 287 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: to an hour to get everything done, and it can 288 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: lead to problems down the road. You'll have people saying, well, 289 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: they had this problem or they had that problem, why 290 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: didn't you look at this? And while you have the 291 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: body there in front of you, you go ahead and 292 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: you do the whole thing. I engage in these discussions 293 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: many times with my students at Jaxsuals Prod teach and 294 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: they'll say, how you know, Professor Morgan, how did you 295 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: get into this environment? How did you start doing this? 296 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: How did you start working the more? Why did you 297 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,239 Speaker 1: choose to be in the Morgue? Let me tell you 298 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: something and hear me right. The best classroom that I've 299 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: ever been in, and I've paid a lot of money 300 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: for tuition over the years, the best classroom that I 301 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: was ever in that I was actually paid to be 302 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: in as opposed to having to pay tutition for it 303 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: was the autopsy room. I learned more about death investigation 304 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: than I ever did out on a scene with a 305 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: deceased person or sitting around having coffee with an old 306 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: investigator and they're telling war stories. I've learned more in 307 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: the autopsy suite, actually getting my hand sturdy and being 308 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: there to actually see these things before me demonstrated, to 309 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: see the mechanisms that are involved, to see all of 310 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: the underlying disease. You can't have a better environment in 311 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: which to learn in Okay, then lay this out for me. Joe, 312 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 1: you were talking for about a full autopsy. Explain that 313 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 1: to me. And how long does an autopsies take? Remember 314 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: how I mentioned when we talked about an external examination. Well, 315 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: every autopsy starts off with an external examination. Now, in 316 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: some cases where you have what you suspect is natural disease, 317 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: it might begin and end with that and then the 318 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 1: body will be released. However, a full autopsy will in 319 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: fact start with an external examination, and you go from 320 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 1: stem to stern relative to the overall status of the body. 321 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: All of this is made not of throughout the examination. 322 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: I mean measurements. We go into great detail relative to measurements, 323 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: and a lot of this is actually dictated by particularly 324 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: if you've got traumatic cases, say for instance, like with 325 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg, where she was stabbed. Some people have said 326 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: twenty times. Some people have said more than twenty times. 327 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: You've got so much trauma there that each individual insult 328 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: that she has externally has to be measured in orient 329 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: it anatomically. Say, for instance, if someone has been let's 330 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: just say somebody has been shot to the right of 331 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: their sternal, which is the hard plate of the breastbone 332 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: on the anterior chest. They've been shot to the right. Well, 333 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: just for that gunshot wound alone, you would have to 334 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: get a measurement first off of the overall circumference of 335 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: the wound itself, and then you have to measure Some 336 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: people do from two points, some people do from three, 337 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: like from if it's on the right side of the stern, 338 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: you would do a measurement from the center of the 339 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: wound to the apex of the right shoulder, and then 340 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 1: maybe from the center the wound to the apex of 341 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: the left shoulder, and then from the center of the 342 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 1: wound to the top of the head. That takes time. 343 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: And then if you have somebody to stabbed multiple times, 344 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: shot multiple times, each one of those injuries dictates the 345 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: speed at which you can do is because you want 346 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: to do a thorough examination. I've had people that have 347 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: been stabbed in well in excess of of a hundred times, 348 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: and you can just imagine the external examination I'll loan 349 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: it is a herculean task, to say the least, and 350 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: then you might have three or four other autopsies that 351 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: you're going to have to do that day. But once 352 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: you get done with the external examination, then the body 353 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: is of course, you're on a stainless stel autopsy table 354 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: and these are either fixed on the floor or their 355 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 1: own rollers where the and they're kind of set at 356 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: a pitch because you're gonna lose fluid, and the fluid 357 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: will run down the stainless steel table either into a 358 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: pre established drain that you have on a fixed table 359 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: or into this big kind of catch I'll sink it's 360 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: a working station that you have, and all of that 361 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: fluid is washed away and you'll have multiple autopsy stations. 362 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: You go to one of these really big shops in 363 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: large metropolitan areas, and they might have the ability to 364 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: have five five autopsies, say for instance, going on at 365 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: one time, and you might have multiple physicians, multiple autopsy assistance, photographers, 366 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: everybody doing these examinations. All at one time, particularly if 367 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 1: you're talking about like a mass casual event or if 368 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: it's a really really busy day. And so after the 369 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: external examination is done, essentially the chest and the abdomen 370 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 1: are opened and we use what's referred to as a 371 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: standard ye incision, and so it forms a y where 372 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: you make a diagonal cut from the apex of the 373 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: left shoulder the apex of the right shoulder down to midsternal. Well, 374 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: because it enables us to effectively remove back or retract 375 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: that external layer of tissue, which includes skin, the subcu fat, 376 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: all of the muscle tissue that's in dwelling, and it 377 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: reveals everything. And also the body is on what's called 378 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: it's blocked in the back. You have kind of these 379 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: rubber blocks. You put them beneath the shoulder blades and 380 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: it hyper extends hyper extends the chest so that the 381 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: shoulders kind of fall to the side. The body really 382 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: opens up and you can appreciate once you get the 383 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: body open, you can appreciate a all of the viscera 384 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: and that's the internal structures very well. They can all 385 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: be visualized in place, and you want to be able 386 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: to see it. I mean just just imagine, if you will, 387 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: you've got someone that has been shot, and let's say 388 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: they're shot in the left side. If people will put 389 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: like there their finger beneath their armpit on the left side, 390 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: and that bullet travels from the left and it travels 391 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: maybe slightly upward from below to above, and it almost 392 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: transacts the body, which means it cuts across the entirety 393 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: of the middle line of the body, and it exits 394 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: out beneath the right armpit. You've got all of these 395 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: structures that are impacted. Let's think what structures might be. Well, 396 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: you've got the left lung, which has only two lobes 397 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: because the hearts on the left side. It may go 398 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: through the heart, then it's gonna go through the right lung, 399 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: which has got three lobes, and then it's going to 400 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: exit through all of that tissue. And you have to 401 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 1: track that wound and see what structures are impacted by this, 402 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: because what you're looking for is when you make that 403 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: final diagnosis of what led to death, was it simply 404 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: the lung that was impacted, was it the heart, or 405 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: was it in total all of these structures being impacted, Say, 406 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: for instance, if it penetrated the heart. Was that injury 407 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: that was sustained as a result of that gunshot when 408 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: sufficient to cause more of an instantaneous death, or did 409 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: this individual linger. What you're describing for me here is 410 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: an autopsy is a lengthy procedure. Oh yeah, yeah, particularly 411 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: when you've got these highly complex cases where you've got 412 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: multiple trauma. Now you might if you have a case, 413 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: for instance, where an individual is say, this is very sad, 414 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: but we do more of these than anything else. I 415 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: would imagine as far as trauma goes, and those are suicides, Well, 416 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: you've got a single self inflicted gunshot when, or at 417 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: least you you think that it might be. But remember 418 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: our starting point is every death is a homicide until 419 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 1: we prove otherwise. You've got a single bullet in that case, 420 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: and you track that bullet, and let's say it's a 421 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: self inflicted gunshot wound to the head. Well, maybe they're 422 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: right handed. It went from the right side of the 423 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: head to the left side of the head, Maybe it 424 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,959 Speaker 1: stayed in, maybe it exited. You're gonna track that wound 425 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: and beyond that, there's not too much more to discover. 426 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: You're gonna try to rule out any other kind of 427 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: trauma that may or may not be present. And this 428 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: again goes to another underlined principle within forensics, negative findings 429 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: are just as important as positive findings. So an absence 430 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: of trauma is significant. Okay, all right, So if I 431 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: can say autopsy that there's no trauma to the neck, 432 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: well that's something that has to be made note of. 433 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: You cannot just assume that people will understand there was 434 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: no trauma to the neck, because if this thing were 435 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: to go to court for whatever reason, one of the 436 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: questions that's going to be asked of the person conducting 437 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: the autopsy is, well, you don't say any thing about 438 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 1: what you saw with the neck. Does that mean that 439 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: it didn't examine the neck or does that mean that 440 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: you didn't see anything? Why? Why? Why would you fail? 441 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: I mean the next pretty significant, right, and you wind 442 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: up looking like an idiot on the stand. So you 443 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: you cover that, you have to document that there was 444 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 1: no trauma to the neck or that there was trauma 445 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: to the neck. All of it is part and parcel 446 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 1: of a bigger picture. So you're right when you say 447 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: that these things take time. It's not just the individual 448 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: trauma that you can see. You also have to document 449 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: those things that are not there, and that's quite fascinating 450 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: when you think about it. There's not too many other 451 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 1: things in life that you document the absence of something 452 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: in that sense. I've always been fascinated by that, that one, 453 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: that one little point that's very significant in forensic pathology 454 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: in particular, you are describing autopsy suites in larger areas 455 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: where they can have multiple tables and autopsies going at 456 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: the same time. Given the amount of time that it 457 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: seems to take for each autopsy, and given how many 458 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: deaths unfortunately that most CDC every day, the idea that 459 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: we see in some cop shows that, hey, can you 460 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: push this to the top of the line? Does that work? 461 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be I guess kind of cheeky here. I'm 462 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: gonna say that all depends on how many politicians called 463 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: the official. Most of the time you'd want to think no, 464 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 1: everybody awaits their turn. But if there are particular high 465 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: profile cases that are going on that particular day. You 466 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: look back historically, I think, and you think about cases 467 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: like Ron Goldman for instance, and Nicole Brown Simpson. Well 468 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: that was at the l A County corner where those 469 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: examinations were done. You would like to think that that 470 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 1: particular forensic pathologists and their team that was involved in 471 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: that case would have been on those two cases, in 472 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: those two cases alone, and that they would have been 473 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: given as much time as possible. However, I don't think 474 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: that people appreciate the volume of cases that come through 475 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: a shop like l A County. That same day, they 476 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: may have had twenty other autopsies that had to be done. 477 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: And there is a finite number of forensic pathologists out there, 478 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, depend upon who you who 479 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: you ask. At any point in time, you'll hear numbers 480 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:28,719 Speaker 1: like five fifty or six hundred board certified forensic pathologists nationwide. Okay, 481 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: just let that sink in. There's and I'm not saying 482 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: forensic pathologists are smarter than a neurosurgeon, but there are 483 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: more neurosurgeons out there practicing than there are forensic pathologists. 484 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: And if you want that level of skill to be 485 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: performed for an autopsy, you're gonna have to really look 486 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: for these people and attract them to work in a 487 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: particular area, because, let's face it, you go to the 488 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: large urban areas, people will apply for those jobs. And 489 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: they will have availability, they'll have a need for forensic pathologists. 490 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: But you go to a more rural area, they're not 491 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: going to have access necessarily to a forensic pathologist because 492 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: there's so very few. It's just the numbers just dictate that, 493 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: and so it's it's really an odd position to be in. 494 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: And then even if you have a full staff, you 495 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: get to these areas, these big urban areas where they 496 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: have huge volumes of deaths and autopsies that have to 497 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: be performed, those staffs are overworked many many times, and 498 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: it's hard to get people to come into the field. 499 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: It looks really sexy on TV and people talk about it, 500 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: and I have kids that come to me all the 501 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: time say they want to be a forensic pathologist. But 502 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: what's fascinating is of talk to people over the years, 503 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: and one of the interesting things is is that when 504 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: friends of pathologists go through their training, it's one of 505 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: those unique kind of educational journeys where the more education 506 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: you get, essentially the less you get paid. Okay, so 507 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: if you just stop at a fellowship or an internship, 508 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: will being a clinical pathologist and anatomical pathologist work in 509 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: a hospital. You're gonna make a lot more than the 510 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: guy that goes on beyond that training and doesn't one 511 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: year fellowship and forensic pathology, and you're gonna wind up 512 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: working animal work in a city, in an urban area 513 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: most of the time, dealing with most unpleasant cases you 514 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: can imagine, and then traveling around and go into court, 515 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: and you're gonna get paid as a government employee. That's 516 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: kind of one of the little dynamics that you know, 517 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: kind of that you're kind of faced with in the 518 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: medical legal community. Joe, you mentioned surgeons just a second ago. 519 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: Is an autopsy considered surgery? I think for years it 520 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: has been regarded as a type of surgery, and you 521 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: will hear the term autopsy surgeon, particularly going back years 522 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: and years. I love history, and what's really kind of 523 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: fascinating about the trajectory that you see with gross anatomical 524 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: dissection is that even up until I guess probably the 525 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds, the first part of the nineteenth century, 526 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: it was illegal in many places to do dissections on 527 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: human remains period. And you know, there's all kinds of 528 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: stories about rape robbers that would go and disinter bodies 529 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: and that would bring them back to medical schools and 530 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: by the light of waloa lamp or whatever, medical students 531 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: in order to try to learn anatomy would dissect these 532 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: bodies that have been removed from the ground just to 533 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: try to understand anatomy. And so it has not been 534 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: something that has been done for centuries and centuries and 535 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: centuries because it was so prohibited for so long. Now 536 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: through the twentieth century and obviously into the autopsies are 537 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: are common, they are a necessity. A very small percentage 538 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: of the cases that a medical examiner corner deal with 539 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: are homicides, and that's what you always think about with 540 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: people in my field, and that's not the case. It's 541 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: just not the lines share cases we deal with are 542 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: some kind of of natural event. If you don't have 543 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: an interest in natural disease pathology looking at bodies where 544 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: you're trying to make a determination about manner and cause it, 545 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: it's not gonna be gunshot wounds most of the time. 546 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: You're gonna be dealing with natural disease and trying to 547 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: make a determination. And there's bigger considerations here. Number one 548 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: is the community in which these people live. Did this 549 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: person suddenly die? Because there's some kind of public health issue. 550 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: I was in Atlanta when we were at the height 551 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: of one of the biggest TV scares in the nation. 552 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: We were like the TV capital of the nation and 553 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: like the nineties or something, and we had all of 554 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: these people that were homeless and other people that were 555 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: dying of TV, and that's a public health concern, and 556 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: then you you think about broad ranging other diseases that 557 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: are out there. I started my career at the height 558 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: of the AIDS epidemic, and we were terrified to be 559 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: in the morgue because we didn't know what was going 560 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: to happen if we stuck ourselves with a dirty needle 561 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 1: or cut ourselves with a dirty scalpel. And that does happen. 562 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: We've all been nick in the morgue. It's not as 563 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: clean as people think. It's not as necessarily precise. It's 564 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: like a standard surgery, you know, when you go into 565 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: these environments because you're doing multiple cases, you're doing them quickly. 566 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: It's a a different world to kind of be a 567 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: part of. But absolutely grateful that that I was part 568 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: of that world because I learned more. Now I have 569 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: an opportunity to teach when people found out what I 570 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,959 Speaker 1: did for a living. I'd get one of two reactions. 571 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: Either people would lean in and want to hear more, 572 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: because by our nature as humans, we have morbid curiosity 573 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: about things. Or I've actually answered the question of what 574 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: I did for a living at a party and had 575 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: people immediately turn on their heel and walk away. They 576 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: don't want to hear anything else about death. There's rarely 577 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: middle ground when that conversation starts. You know, I never 578 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: thought that I had a morbid curiosity about me, but 579 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: I have been proven wrong. The more I talk about you, 580 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: the more I want to know. So let's play twenty questions, 581 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: so to speak with Joe Scott Morgan. What makes a 582 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: person want to deal with dead bodies? And how do 583 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: you get into that profession? How do you get to 584 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: work in a morgue? For me, it was a curious 585 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: set of circumstances. Now it's really actually difficult to get 586 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: into more to even view an autopsy because of all 587 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: of the health considerations and all these sort of things. 588 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: But I happen to be working at a hospital in 589 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 1: security and working also as an e R tech. While 590 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: the morgue in our parish down there was being renovated 591 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: and they started bringing bodies to our hospital to do 592 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: the autopsies for the parish, which is the same as 593 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: a county. And I became friends with the people at 594 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: the corner's office, and I would be the one that 595 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: would shuffle bodies in and out the door, and they 596 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: were a huge volume of them, and I just became 597 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: friends with these folks and started, believe it or not, 598 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 1: I started attending autopsies on my free time, not getting paid, 599 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: but I was just fascinated by it because I've always 600 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: been a science guy. And the next thing I knew, 601 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: I was taking notes for them, and eventually they allowed 602 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: me to participate in autopsy. Await wait, taking notes for them? 603 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: What does that mean? Well, I would work as a 604 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: scribe for the forensic pathologist. If you can imagine the 605 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: stupid young kid who had no background in it, but 606 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:41,280 Speaker 1: was willing to sit there with bloated, decomposing remains. Horrible 607 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: traumatic cases, the worst of the worst cases you can 608 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: possibly see. And I didn't necessarily retract or retreat from it. 609 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: And that's not always a circumstance when people go to 610 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: an autopsy for the first time. I've had one of 611 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,839 Speaker 1: my best friends that became a fantastic homicide investigator. I 612 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: was in the middle of opening a gunshot wound victim's 613 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: head in the middle of it, and he, my friend 614 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: just kind of back up. My friend was actually a 615 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: burglary detective in the jurisdiction where I was working, and 616 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: he and I played golf together over the years and whatnot, 617 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: and he wanted to transition the homicide. One of the 618 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: requirement says you had to go to autopsies. He'd never been, 619 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,439 Speaker 1: and famously I had. I'd used that kind of high 620 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 1: pitched saw. It's called striker saw and agitating saw. Its 621 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: like cas saw, and I was open to the skull 622 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: and the friends of pathologists looked up at me over 623 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: his mask and he said you better check on him. 624 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: And I looked over and my friend was turning green. 625 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: And he stood up. And he's a big guy, I 626 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: mean just really big, bold, tough guy's kind of guy 627 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: you'd worn on your side. There was a fight, and 628 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 1: he's always dressed to the nines. And he begins to 629 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: back up and retreat away from the autopsy area down 630 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 1: a little hallway and he collapsed and went up against 631 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: a tiled wall in this old hospital and slid down 632 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,359 Speaker 1: the wall. I look back now and I as at 633 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: it because I was covered. You can't imagine. I was 634 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: doing autopsy, had blood on me, and we used to 635 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: wear these big yellow gloves that just made the blood 636 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: pop even more. And he's my friend. I was concerned. 637 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,720 Speaker 1: I thought he'd hurt his head. And I was approaching him, 638 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,360 Speaker 1: walking toward him, saying, are you okay? Are you okay? 639 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: And he automatically still nauseated, and Dizzy throws his hands 640 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: up like I'm a monster, and he says, no, no, 641 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: back away, back away, because I'm coming at him and 642 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: I've got blood all over, and it was just it's 643 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: one of those curious environments that only certain people have 644 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: the ability to be able to to go into and 645 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:44,439 Speaker 1: maintain their focus. Well, that that's the key. It's hard 646 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: to kind of measure that until you've been in in 647 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: that environment. Some people think they want to do it, 648 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: but then they get in there and they realize from 649 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: jump Street that they don't have the And it's not 650 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: a judgment of them, it's just some people react differently 651 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: to seeing a human being that is being opened on 652 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: a table. And I think that that's that's natural. But 653 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: you kind of. I think I've said that you kind 654 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: of develop a callous to it, And I don't mean 655 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,839 Speaker 1: you become callous. You just develop almost like if you're 656 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: a carpenter and you're swinging a hammer, your hands are 657 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,839 Speaker 1: suited to that. After period of time, you you build 658 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: up a callous on your hands so you can handle 659 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: the hammer. And for us, we build up a kind 660 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 1: of a callous to those things that are required of 661 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: us to do because who else you're gonna get to 662 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: do it? You know, people say they want to do it, 663 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: but there's one thing about saying you want to do it, 664 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: and there's no part to doing it. You know. Over 665 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 1: the course of my career, I wound up participating in 666 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: over seven thousand autopsy so I stuck around a little while. 667 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 1: That is a lot of bodies. You've seen those bodies 668 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: in all stages of things that would fit inside a 669 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: horror movie. Yeah, yeah, you have. And and sometimes if 670 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: I happen to watch horror movie, which I generally don't, 671 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: I look at it immediately and said that doesn't look real. 672 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: All right, I'll say, wow, somebody really did the research this, 673 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: This looks very accurate. It's weird. How you kind of 674 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: judge things like that when you know you've been involved 675 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: in the field, but yeah, you you really do. They 676 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: run the gamut. I talked about in my memoir Blood 677 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet. I talked about a horrible kind of 678 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: event where we had a barge that capsized in the 679 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: Gulf of Mexico. They were trying to outrun a hurricane 680 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: that was inbound and they didn't make it, and I 681 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: think we had sixteen sixteen men that lost their lives, 682 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: and they came in slowly. They were able to be 683 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: recovered because they some of them weren't still on board 684 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: when the thing capsized. They went over, and of course 685 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: the bodies were sitting in the heat in the Gulf 686 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 1: of Mexico, subject to everything that's in the Gulf of Mexico, 687 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: and so you get partial remains, then you get intact 688 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: remains that are severely bloated and compromised. We had a 689 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,760 Speaker 1: very small facility and did a highball lume of cases, 690 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: and we still had our other cases we had to do, 691 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 1: but we had to bring in a refrigerated truck and 692 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: store these bodies, and we had to do all kinds 693 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: of intense exams. I mean everything to removing the jaws 694 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: on the bodies, to do odent, to logical examinations to 695 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 1: try to determine who these people were. And I was 696 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: around these bodies for so long, and this is not 697 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: the first time that had happened to me or one 698 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 1: of my one of my colleagues. I was around those 699 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: bodies for so many days, and in that environment, I 700 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: couldn't get rid of the smell. I couldn't. I literally 701 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 1: wound up having to shave my entire body because no 702 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: matter how much showered and bathed and all these sorts 703 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: of things, even using vinegar and all those things that 704 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 1: they tell you, I couldn't get rid of it. I 705 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 1: think that part of that goes to there's an actual 706 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: physical thing that happens, but there's a scarring. I think 707 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: that happens emotionally with that too, where you kind of 708 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: bear that along. And and we had this kind of 709 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: weird culture in the medical legal community. We would walk 710 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 1: up almost like you see these apes in these National 711 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: geographic documentaries where they pick at knits and that sort 712 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: of thing, and we had this We would check one 713 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: another before we would go out. Maybe we've gone out 714 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,799 Speaker 1: on a case where we had a decomposing body, and 715 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:15,800 Speaker 1: we would smell each other. Would say, I've got to 716 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: go talk to a family. How do I smell? And 717 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: that's a weird Just think about that dynamic within an 718 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: office and you become friends with these people you know 719 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: and say, yeah, do I smell bad? And it's not 720 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: because you haven't bathed or used the odorant, But if 721 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 1: you've been in the presence of a decomposed body, you 722 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: don't want to expose the public to that. And so 723 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 1: that's that's kind of a weird little nuance that we 724 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 1: have in our community. Joe, you were talking about your 725 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: friends and getting to be friends with these people and 726 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: how they deal with it, but how did your family 727 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: deal with it? Well, interesting little aside. My wife Kim, 728 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: that you know and have met. We've hung out and 729 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 1: y'all have friends. We actually met on a blind day, 730 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 1: and of course being on a blind day, it's very 731 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: unconfortably anyway. And when I look on a little side here, 732 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: when I saw her, she's the most beautiful quick sa 733 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,360 Speaker 1: in my life, and I'm thinking, you better make the 734 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,320 Speaker 1: most of this, boy, or you're you're never gonna have 735 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,840 Speaker 1: another shot with a woman that is this beautiful and okay, 736 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,799 Speaker 1: enough with the brownie, enough of the brownie points. Jack. Well, 737 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 1: we we went on We went on a date, and 738 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: after we went to a ballgame together, and afterwards we 739 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 1: we go to a restaurant, actually a pizza place, and 740 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,319 Speaker 1: we're sitting across from one another having a conversation and 741 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 1: she's saying, now, tell me again, what is it that 742 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: you do for a living. And I'm sitting there and 743 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 1: I'm describing to her that I worked for the Medical Examiner, 744 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 1: which is like the corner and we go out and 745 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,919 Speaker 1: examine the dead and make determinations about who they are 746 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: because they might be unidentified, and we also do autopsies. 747 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: That's that's the way we go about this. And she's 748 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 1: kind of sitting there with this open jawed expression on 749 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 1: her face, and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I've really 750 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 1: blown this. And then all of a sudden, she looks 751 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: at me and she says, until I met you, I 752 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: never thought about death. And you know, you can take 753 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,359 Speaker 1: anything you want to away from that story, but it's 754 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: not a good beginning to a blind date. But she 755 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: found it interesting because most people, most people out there, 756 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,400 Speaker 1: they don't think about death. They think about their life, 757 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,280 Speaker 1: and the same with my wife. She didn't think about death. 758 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 1: But when you're sitting there with someone that engages in 759 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 1: in this work every single day, it suddenly comes to 760 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 1: full form before you and you have to consider it 761 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: one way or another. This is the bottom line for it. 762 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 1: It's it's horrible, horrible business, and you have to make 763 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: a decision of your own free will if you want 764 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: to be there or not. And if you decide to 765 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,879 Speaker 1: be there, then you do the job to the best 766 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,799 Speaker 1: of your ability, and you understand that you have a 767 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: unique space that you occupy providing a service that a 768 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: few other people are equipped to deal with. It doesn't 769 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 1: mean that we're any better than anybody else. It just 770 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,240 Speaker 1: means that we have a set of skills that enable 771 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:17,759 Speaker 1: us to tolerate that environment within reason. But on the 772 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 1: human side of it, and this happened to me, it 773 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:26,800 Speaker 1: wears on you. The human mind is only equipped to 774 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 1: deal with so much horror. You're you're not We're not 775 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 1: created that way, We're not equipped that way. You hit 776 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: tolerances and I know personally, I can't speak for any 777 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 1: of my colleagues, but I know personally I paid a 778 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: tremendous price with constant nightmares, you know, panic attacks and 779 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 1: all those things that came along with a diagnosis of 780 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:54,439 Speaker 1: PTSD at the end of my career. But even though 781 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: I went through all of that, I wouldn't trade it 782 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:02,799 Speaker 1: for anything in the world because now I'm at a 783 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: point where I get to talk about it, where I 784 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 1: get to teach about it, and it is quite possibly 785 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:18,400 Speaker 1: the best thing in the world for me. I'm Joseph 786 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:26,800 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body Bags M